Should the WRC take things back to basics?

[Matthew McClune]

Recently, I've become disheartened with the way that the WRC and most other major rally championships have dropped in popularity. I believe that there are a number of reasons for this;

The drop out of big team names from the WRC such as Subaru and Mitsibushi Ralliart has had a negative impact on the sport, with a large amount of the fans wanting to see these heavyweights battle it out stage by stage. These cars added an excitement value for the fans. Now, instead they are greated by names such as Hyundai Motorsport...... I'm not for one moment suggesting that Hyundai is a bad company, in fact they make some of the best small consumer cars on the market today, I just feel, like many other rally enthusiasts, that Hyundai aren't exactly a byword for speed. I feel that in order to engage the fans more, bigger names such as Audi, BMW, Subaru, Mitsibushi and Nissan should enter teams into the Championship. This would make it more of a spectacle, and would attract vast numbers of fans to the sport. Every effort should be made to make sure the fans enjoy the rallies. At the end of the day, they pay the bills.

Another suggestion I would have for the FIA would be to take the cars back to basics. Rallying used to be about driver skill controlling the machine, but now with fancy computers in the cars, it is more like the car is controlling the driver. I would like to see the FIA do away with the likes of sequential transmissions and bring back the standard manual gearboxes for the rally cars. Okay, so maybe gear changes are slightly slower, but with the driver having to use the clutch and a gear stick for every shift (instead of using paddles and driving the cars essentially as an automatic) it brings back real or 'pure' driving. Essentially, I'm looking back to the golden age of group B rallying, even though it was banned. I think that taking inspiration from those Group B cars, with their minimal driver aids and standard manual transmissions would do no harm for the sport, especially with today's new safety standards.
I would be happy if rallying simply went back to it being the car and the driver, rather than software running everything! This simply sets the skill level required for the drivers that bit higher, meaning greater chance of driver error, and more exciting racing for the fans.

I would love to hear what you guys think on this!
Thanks!

[noel157]

No.

[N.O.T]

go watch local village events if you want medieval vehicles...

WRC needs to be the spearhead of technology, that is how manufacturers advertise themselves...

[stefanvv]

Yes, I think it should do, it's for the better of the sport. But that's not going to happen.

BTW I don't think there is much "smart" electronics in WRC cars, not like the level it was in F1 nearly 20 years ago with the driver just steering the "wheel".

Frankly I don't know what is the problem with WRC. 5 years ago I would say it is Loeb/Citroen domination. But now I'm not sure about such formula. I'm sure though there is a problem....

[AL14]

Moneys.
There are plenty of cars that lay like ghosts in very big parks unselled all over Europe and our continent has not too much market, I think the problem is more there than in the type of car used.

I also think rally has some communication issues. I'm not refferring to advertising stuff but to the way it is recounted, it is an self-referential world, a guy who's not used to it couldn't understand anything about how it works, the agonism, the stories behind the sport, the drivers and all the things we all love about it.
It's not easy to attract new public if you speak a language they don't understand. I stucked into rally playing a rally videogame last year and I didn't give a fuck before, I discovered a beautiful sport and now I'm very much addicted to it. But why didn't it reached me before? How many guys out there can become big fans but they're not giving a fuck? (sorry for my explicit language)

By the way, money is the main reason imho.

[N.O.T]

Rallying and the WRC are different sports.

[stefanvv]

Promotion is important of course, but there is still something missing. Something which brought those legions of crazy fans in mid 80's on the stages.

[AL14]

Rallying and the WRC are different sports.

You can be right, "WRC" would be more appropriate but I've edited that post so many times because of my grammar mistakes I really don't want to do it once more. ;)

[N.O.T]

Promotion is important of course, but there is still something missing. Something which brought those legions of crazy fans in mid 80's on the stages.

the way of life during the 80s brought them out by legions... we are in a different era now.

[stefanvv]

the way of life during the 80s brought them out by legions... we are in a different era now.

No, it's not the way of life. I think it was the technology revolution called Quattro & Group B. But that's not all, in 90's we had Sainz, Kankkunen, McRae & Makinen, which were all great drivers but also great characters. May be that's also missing nowadays. Probably the last great character in wrc I remember is Gronholm.

So it is right. We are in different era now, and sadly I don't see how wrc is going to be more popular.

[N.O.T]

again i have to lecture you people in case you learn something... which i doubt but here it goes.

Back in the 80s the only way you could watch WRC was up close, maybe some tv shows every now and then and then from VHS and books... and that was also the reason why you considered the drivers and carsof that era that good... the limited amount of information lead you to glorify them.

In general the less you know about something and the less you come into contact with it, the more you want it, and visa versa when you have something every day you get bored of it, and as one of my close friends said to his model-looks girlfriend when she asked him why he does not want her any more the way he used to "well dear even if you have steak every day you grow out of it eventually"... have you seen a vase full of flowers fly at almost the speed of light ?? well he did that day....

nowadays you can have WRC through Youtube, facebooks, instagrams, all those social media for antisocial people and the interwebs and on top of that before each event you have DimViii to post 5 pictures per second of what each driver does so in your peasant eyes these drivers become humans like you... they are not characters anymore, the cars sound awful and the feet of malcom wilson smell.

Plus the new way of life demands evolution and change very often and far faster than in the 80s... you gave Mr jobs cancer because he could not cope with the evolution demands of the ipad and you should be sad about it... so people prefer the antics of ken block who is yet to get a chin transplant... and on top of that you have me who rants about everything and you cannot have nice things because i will probably tell you the truth about it and you will be sad again...

Plus you are getting old... really old... in a few years you are going to hate the youth of today and the technologies of today... because back in the 80s you were the youngster and everything was nice and the sunsets were brighter and your wife resembled a woman rather than a person of unknown sex and identity... and you maybe have kids and you have to worry about their problems more than yours and in general you preffered when you were free and young and you actually looked yourself in the mirror and said "damn i look good"

so "back then" will always be nicer because you were nicer...

lecture is over... class dismissed.

[janvanvurpa]

No, it's not the way of life. I think it was the technology revolution called Quattro & Group B. But that's not all, in 90's we had Sainz, Kankkunen, McRae & Makinen, which were all great drivers but also great characters. May be that's also missing nowadays. Probably the last great character in wrc I remember is Gronholm.

So it is right. We are in different era now, and sadly I don't see how wrc is going to be more popular.

The thing that was different is what is called "identification"....

Previously people--adult males primarily---could 'identify" with or 'relate to' the humans driving the cars...

The 80s and 90s saw primarily American universities vomited forth whole armies of "media specialists' and "web developers" not selling products but selling "image"....there was one stupid California based company selling some useless junk to little California boys and their motto was 'Image is Everything'

So to sell to the mindless, and like it or not most of what in "the trade" over here is called "The Target Demographic" are brainless little 14 to 24 year old boys in the affluent suburbs, it was necessary to more or less simply grab any pretty face with maybe normal talent---and above all YOUNG---and pump out endless videos and now facebook, tweet and all the rest of the throw away "media" and results or experience be damned, just have breathless "vidiographers" keep saying "Awesome" and "rad" and the litter boys will bug Mommy and daddy to give them money so they can run out and buy the latest flat brim cap, and gallons of Red Monster Bullsh*t ENERGY DRINK --cause it is thirsty work playing the latest F1 or Dubya Arsey game in the air-conditioned house.

And as the media worked its "magic" and anybody with a pulse in any backward bankrupt country could have access to a keyboard, the "media producers' could tally their you-tube "hits" and say The sport is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Popular, 5 million views"

So the sport has become a completely packaged commodity, a consumer product as a "spectacle"......and the people and the skills and the variety of formats and events become as bad as that unbelievable bore fest F1. Same format, same schedule, same cars---Oh wow the headlights on the Siesta (snore) are swoopier than the Citra... is what we are supposed to discuss...

Advertising has ruined everything it touches, because the people doing it are mere whores who will say anything, write anything, present anything....and it matters not that they know nothing...In an avalanch of Bullsh*t, who is going to notice some huge stinking turds of misinformation...

Example: in America we have around 315,000,000 people...Last year there were about 320 individual entrants in any rally in USA...it is a shrinking sport...Last US "National" Championship had 13 entries..One stock Honda 1500, a Fiesta and the rest Subarus--or maybe 1 Misterbitchy..
The driver skill level is far below even district level competition in say Sweden...in other words there are guys in Sweden in Golf and 20+ year old volvos quicker on same stages as "full time Pro" who easily runs away from evertybody else here...
A backwater. Not even "big fish in a small pond', more like minnow in a mud puddle.

Has that stopped the American media from pouring out endless Press releases about "the American Rally Gods"?

Here I have read in Press releases such gems as: Travis Pastrana was the 2007 World Champion--direct from "Wasserman Group" , a high powered "Media Management" firm in (where else?) Los Angeles ... Back in the late 90s I read in some "well respected" magazine that "Subaru was the first car in the WRC with turbo and AWD"

And we all know that "ben Klock was a factory driver full time highly paid Professional in the WRC"...which must have been news to Malcolm Wilson and maybe he wondered why Ben Clock was giving him 4,8 million GBP.

When advertising is the main point, reality is doomed.

And advertising is king in all motorsports now---except a few islands of sanity at the "District" level or what I think may be the best series in the world, F-cup in Finland...

[janvanvurpa]

again i have to lecture you people in case you learn something... which i doubt but here it goes.

Boring time in the lab?

Must you ruin every thread?



Back in the 80s the only way you could watch WRC was up close, maybe some tv shows every now and then and then from VHS and books... and that was also the reason why you considered the drivers and cars of that era that good... the limited amount of information lead you to glorify them.

We have limited information about you other than you are a lab assistant and an egomaniac with delusions of grandeur ...
It does not make anybody here glorify you...

DING!
Point proven invalid be simple ordinary test in just 2 seconds.


In general the less you know about something and the less you come into contact with it, the more you want it,

Again we know very little about you, no real contact and what contact there is seems excessive, and again I will bet a whole nickel that nobody here wants more of your lecturing...or more of you.

Again simple test and your construct collapses.




lecture is over... class dismissed.

if we are lucky the lecturer will leave now. ..

One can always hope

[the sniper]

Personally for me anyway, Audi, BMW, Subaru and Mitsibushi coming in would make little difference. An odd bunch of posers cars vs heavy, oversized Japanese saloons holds no special attraction. As much as Group B was great, it's hard to see how you could recreate those cars. Time has moved on, technology has moved forward. Engineering the past isn't a step forward in my view. For the same reasons I wouldn't like to see manual boxes return, the industry has moved on. Seeing the current cars out on the stages, I don't personally think there's much wrong with them.

I think there's a mixture of issues in the WRC, non of which are easy to solve. I think the biggest issue with connecting with the wider public is still the TV coverage and promotion of the Championship. The TV deals still aren't that good, the WRC is largely invisible if you aren't looking for it. Broadcasts are cheap 'world feed' style affairs in many countries, lacking local presenters, in vision and on location. It just makes the WRC seem unimportant. If these packaged highlights were better it wouldn't be such a problem, but even as a massive fan, I find the highlights shows highly formulaic, completely lacklustre and rather boring. When you watch the old ISC highlights from the early 2000s now they seem to have a much better flow to them, a better way of telling the story of the rally. Red Bull's highlights are a mixture of repeating what we've already seen, a few shots from the stages, a crash, plenty of Super Slow-Mo's, a bit of dubstep, a teaser for a crash that's coming up after a break, then after the break all that repeated again. There's too much fluff and too much stop/start, interrupting the 'story' of the event. Maybe that sounds like wishy-washy nonsense, but essentially the ISC highlights were better!

A major bugbear of mine with the WRC today is the nature of the events. Most rallies are just sad shadows of what they used to be. Take Britain for example, the RAC was a massive event touring the country, it made an impact on the nation, there was a buzz about it. While Wales Rally GB is much better now than it was for many years, it'll never have the impact that the RAC had. When you look at the itineraries for even late 80s/early 90s RAC rallies, you can't help but be impressed by what the competitors had to undertake. Damn, even the BRC rallies up until the late 90s were more impressive than the modern day Rally GB. Today's WRC rallies across the world just look pitiful, three or four stages in the morning (at most), the same stages repeated in the afternoon for two days, then a couple of stages on a Sunday. All done within the normal working day, often covering much less than 400km competitively, going round and round in circles... It's just so uninspiring in comparison with what's gone before. I appreciate that it's much cheaper and easier to do rallies like this, and as a spectator on the stages it is convenient, but being easy and convenient isn't what the spirit of rallying was traditional about! The death of the Safari Rally still lingers over the Championship for me. The WRC freed itself of its greatest challenge, it's last flavour of what rallying was. While F1 still has Monaco, Sports Cars still have Le Mans, Indy Car the Indy 500, NASCAR the Daytona 500, the WRC, I would argue, just has... a load of similar events on different surfaces, with some less mediocre than others.

And finally, the Seb effect. The one man show. Loeb and Ogier are great drivers, but their domination has undoubtedly damaged the sport, particularly outside of us core fanbase. They've frankly made the rest of the guys look like amateurs. That's not to say they are, but if a Loeb or Ogier had turned up in the mid 80s or late 90s and dominated, would we still consider the likes of Sainz, Kankkunen, McRae, Burns, Makinen et al. to be the heroes that we do today? Having one man be dominant makes it hard to make heroes out of the rest. Worst of all, Loeb leaving to bugger about in the WTCC robbed the WRC of the only 'battle of greats' that we could have seen in the short to medium term. The buzz that we saw during the Monte stretched over the length of a few seasons would have help the WRC regain some traction, frankly it'd be great. Maybe Jari-Matti would be able to make a better shot of it if he didn't have the weight of the world's Seb beating hopes on his shoulders...

I think I've rather strayed from the OPs point though!

[b3637853]

I think there's a mixture of issues in the WRC, non of which are easy to solve. I think the biggest issue with connecting with the wider public is still the TV coverage and promotion of the Championship. The TV deals still aren't that good, the WRC is largely invisible if you aren't looking for it. Broadcasts are cheap 'world feed' style affairs in many countries, lacking local presenters, in vision and on location. It just makes the WRC seem unimportant. If these packaged highlights were better it wouldn't be such a problem, but even as a massive fan, I find the highlights shows highly formulaic, completely lacklustre and rather boring. When you watch the old ISC highlights from the early 2000s now they seem to have a much better flow to them, a better way of telling the story of the rally. Red Bull's highlights are a mixture of repeating what we've already seen, a few shots from the stages, a crash, plenty of Super Slow-Mo's, a bit of dubstep, a teaser for a crash that's coming up after a break, then after the break all that repeated again. There's too much fluff and too much stop/start, interrupting the 'story' of the event. Maybe that sounds like wishy-washy nonsense, but essentially the ISC highlights were better!


This. I watched all coverage from the past 2+3 years and there is something boring in every day highlights, preview magazines and event higlights. And it is boring even for an enthusiastic WRC fan. I mean it lacks something extra. Like few years ago at Rally of Turkey they explained with details Loeb's, Hirvonen's and Block's pacentotes. They could show how driver prepares for an event or use the gps virtual cars comparison like Canal+ did at the last Rallye de France. Finally the onboard camera position showing the struggle of drivers or footwork. Of course the producers need to make extra effort, but they can't just film few slow-mo shots mix it with some onboard footage and that's it.

Other thing is WRC+ onboards. As I remember they've started WRC+ in Finland 2014, but soon the onboards from Rally Poland were available and it was great because they've all had intercom sound recorded. That allows you to redo the rally with any crew listening to pacenotes, their corrections by driver, what they were saying in difficult moments and after every stage. This should be done for every rally. And of course the onboard camera position.
Secondly obviously the Seb effect, but I think it is a consequence of lack of competition. Not enough factory teams. WRC needs strong rivalry between big manufacturers not a quasi-team M-Sport and almost withdrawing Citroen.

[AL14]

Back in the 80s the only way you could watch WRC was up close, maybe some tv shows every now and then and then from VHS and books... and that was also the reason why you considered the drivers and carsof that era that good... the limited amount of information lead you to glorify them.

In general the less you know about something and the less you come into contact with it, the more you want it, and visa versa when you have something every day you get bored of it.


This is wrong. The exposure we have through various channels nowadays don't affect live events. According to you Chelsea should have his big stadium almost empty and bruce springsteen should sing in suburbs pubs. The new communication era give people the possibility to watch more contents but at the same time engage them more...

[Mirek]

Another suggestion I would have for the FIA would be to take the cars back to basics. Rallying used to be about driver skill controlling the machine, but now with fancy computers in the cars, it is more like the car is controlling the driver. I would like to see the FIA do away with the likes of sequential transmissions and bring back the standard manual gearboxes for the rally cars. Okay, so maybe gear changes are slightly slower, but with the driver having to use the clutch and a gear stick for every shift (instead of using paddles and driving the cars essentially as an automatic) it brings back real or 'pure' driving. Essentially, I'm looking back to the golden age of group B rallying, even though it was banned. I think that taking inspiration from those Group B cars, with their minimal driver aids and standard manual transmissions would do no harm for the sport, especially with today's new safety standards.
I would be happy if rallying simply went back to it being the car and the driver, rather than software running everything!

I suppose You are not a technician, right? No offense there just please take a short while read my next few lines. I'm no expert at all but I'm sure dimviii or br21 would fix any mistakes I do.

There is basically nothing driver-related driven by software in todays WRC cars. There is much less of software in them than in Your stock car, not speaking about WRC cars from 2000'.

Let's just take it step by step.

Engine - ECU needs software. Yes, it's been like that with every combustion engine for decades now. Possibly the only special thing about WRC ECU is anti-lag. In the past the 2.0 cars had fancy things like water injection or intercooler water spray but that's all gone for simplification.

Gearbox - there is nothing hi-tech about sequential gearbox. It's at least quarter a century old technology now. The hydraulic system which is used is very simple. Unlike in the 2.0 WRC cars it's not used for driving active differentials anymore. Only gear shifting and handbrake last. Believe it or not it's primitive technology.

Transmission - this is my favorite part as the fully mechanical 4WD system without center differential is something so terribly 80' style that it hurts to be presented as any cutting-edge technology :)

Suspension - although dampers are way better than in the past they are still purely mechanical. No active systems are involved.

Brakes - same as above.

Traction - there are no traction control systems used. No other drive-supporting systems at all. Again current WRC are like two decades back behind stock cars.

Tyres - big difference from the past as a result of natural development.

Auxiliary systems - here You can find some fancy little things like non-full time driving of the water pump or alternator to save engine power but these have virtually nothing to do with drivers.

All in all WRC cars of today are simplified near to the bone. In my opinion they actually prove two things:

- from marketing point of view it's doesn't matter what is inside the cars

- from cost point of view it doesn't matter how much You simplify the cars (for manufacturers at least)

[AL14]

All problems we've argued would be easily solved with money. During '80s manufacturers had funds to invest in rallys, that meant more manufacturers and therefore more competition (and not one Sebastien ruling the scene).

With more money the national federations will be more able to go to talented not-rich-daddy's guys and give them the opportunity to become great drivers -> again, more competitiveness, a better sport.

With more competitiveness thanks to more money, and more money's opportunities for businesses in the WRC there will be more TV coverage. So we will have a bigger awareness of the sport and people will go back to the stages making rallys like Wales be amazing as they used to be.
WRC+ would be purchased by more people and will be a better service -> it will make WRC earn more money for promotion, promotion will enhance the success of the sport.

Profit and capitalism rule our world, if we don't want advertising ruin motorsport and such things we should not let people demolish that wall in Berlin back in 1989 :)

To finish: do not misunderstand me, I'm aware money are not the only issue but we can say they are the bigger one. Way more than a gearshift.

[stefanvv]

All in all WRC cars of today are simplified near to the bone. In my opinion they actually prove three things:

- from marketing point of view it's doesn't matter what is inside the cars

- from cost point of view it doesn't matter how much You simplify the cars (for manufacturers at least)

- from durability point of view, the simpler, the better.

[Sladden]

This new formula of World rally cars since 2011 was supposed to go back to basics. But now the paddle shifters are coming back again. And Another thing is that 20 years ago...300bhp car was something quite special. Not supercar even then but still. In 2015 we have standard cars that almost match this. Its not that special anymore. On top of this tyres, suspension and transmissions and other technology has evolved so much. How about making cars appear a bit more beastlike and have Power matching the development that has happened since 300bhp became norm?

[stefanvv]

Don't You think kind of unlimited engine power would spice up a little bit. I mean look how RallyX grows in popularity, those little cars have 600+ hp. So when You say to average Joe this accelerates from 0 to 100 on gravel faster than f1 car on a circuit asphalt, he amazes "wow, that is something I have to see", so wrc attract more fans, as a consequence probably the promotion would get better too.
On the other hand I realise those will be much more difficult to drive when You put "the pedal to the metal", so perhaps we'll have more competition. Well I'm afraid Kubica will not be allowed to drive, so wrc will lose lot of fans.

[Matthew McClune]

I suppose You are not a technician, right?

No I'm far from it :) In my opinion I'm not even as concerned with computers in WRC cars as I am with wanting standard manual gearboxes back! But that's just my opinion.....



Plus you are getting old... really old... in a few years you are going to hate the youth of today and the technologies of today... because back in the 80s you were the youngster and everything was nice and the sunsets were brighter and your wife resembled a woman rather than a person of unknown sex and identity... and you maybe have kids and you have to worry about their problems more than yours and in general you preffered when you were free and young and you actually looked yourself in the mirror and said "damn i look good"

so "back then" will always be nicer because you were nicer...
.

I'm 17 buddy

[Matthew McClune]

This new formula of World rally cars since 2011 was supposed to go back to basics. But now the paddle shifters are coming back again. And Another thing is that 20 years ago...300bhp car was something quite special.

So like me you'd like to see more of a driver input on the gear changes?

[Mirek]

That would change virtually nothing. All gr.N cars have H-pattern and although it is possible to use their dog-ring type gearboxes without clutch most of the drivers actually use clutch to save the gearbox for a little longer.

[N.O.T]

I'm 17 buddy

that is really really worrying then... or you just reflect your dads/uncles or some elders view on the sport.

[N.O.T]

This is wrong. The exposure we have through various channels nowadays don't affect live events. According to you Chelsea should have his big stadium almost empty and bruce springsteen should sing in suburbs pubs. The new communication era give people the possibility to watch more contents but at the same time engage them more...

it is not wrong... when you talk about a sport that has a fixed amount of spectators the comparison is irrelevant because stamford bridge always had a capacity of 40k and was always full... if in rallying we had a fixed amount of 100k spectators then again you would see no difference through time.

Plus football is like a religion for many people so it cannot be compared to a proper sport.

you have a point saying that with more exposure nowadays the publicity would be higher and it actually is in absolute numbers but the difference is we have more casual people and not hardcore.

[AL14]

it is not wrong... when you talk about a sport that has a fixed amount of spectators the comparison is irrelevant because stamford bridge always had a capacity of 40k and was always full... if in rallying we had a fixed amount of 100k spectators then again you would see no difference through time.

Plus football is like a religion for many people so it cannot be compared to a proper sport.

Ok, football wasn't the best of examples but tell me which live events of any kind that has been affected by media exposure.
Viewing a youtube video with cars rifting and flatout will let you stay at home, or will let you go to the stages to watch him?


you have a point saying that with more exposure nowadays the publicity would be higher and it actually is in absolute numbers but the difference is we have more casual people and not hardcore.

I agree with you and I think this is a very important point. This is why they want circus and shootout and here is where is the communication issue I talked about previously. WRC don't know how to talk with casual people, they don't simply do it and they will stay casual looking at Ken Block clowny gymchanas.

[N.O.T]

oooooh it is so nice we both agree... i like agreeing very much... can we be best friends for life ?

[AL14]

oooooh it is so nice we both agree... i like agreeing very much... can we be best friends for life ?

This is not too much on topic but I never refuse a friend request :)

[AdvEvo]

F1 looses a lot spectacters too.

The youngster have no interest in cars anymore. They rather have an iPhone that cost 800 euro. When I was young I bought old rwd car for less money and have fun with it.

Young People loose interest in cars and rallying and racing is not even coming to their mind!

Government with co2 taxes on cars. Cars get more and more expensive and fun cars are hard to get or very expensive. It al starts when you get you're driving license and get you're first car and have fun with it. Now they rather walk into an Apple Store.

[Matthew McClune]

F1 looses a lot spectacters too.

The youngster have no interest in cars anymore. They rather have an iPhone that cost 800 euro. When I was young I bought old rwd car for less money and have fun with it.

Young People loose interest in cars and rallying and racing is not even coming to their mind!

Government with co2 taxes on cars. Cars get more and more expensive and fun cars are hard to get or very expensive. It al starts when you get you're driving license and get you're first car and have fun with it. Now they rather walk into an Apple Store.

It was getting my license that got me started properly into cars

[AdvEvo]

Matthew i was driving gokarts when I was 9 years old. I could hardly wait to get my drivers license. But the majority are not like you and me anymore!

[tbtstt]

I am a new member on this forum, so I don't want it to look like I'm attacking other members, but in my opinion the OP isn't really in a position to make such a statement; you aren't even looking at Group B through your own rose-tinted spectacles, you are looking at it through another generations rose-tinted spectacles. The Group B era was an incredible period, but it wasn't sustainable and was destined to be replaced (by Group S) even before tragedy cut it short.

I'm potentially biased as it was the era of WRC that I grew up with, but for me Group A was the pinnacle of the WRC. The cars were the closest to the showroom models they have ever been and the 4WD systems/car setup of the era required a lot of aggression to get the best out of them, so they were always spectacular to watch on the limit. Consider the iconic road cars that the era spawned; Impreza, Evo, Celica GT4, Integrale, Pulsar GTi-R... no other era of motorsport has put so many performance cars into the reach of the mainstream...

...do I think a return to the regulations of that era would work today though? No, I don't. None of the manufacturers currently produce a showroom model close to their current WRC entries and, although some of them probably could (specifically thinking Ford and VW), I'm sure the question of finincial viability would prevent it from happening. I think such rules would immediately remove Citroen as well, as they have never truly reflected their rally cars in the showroom model.

I desperately wish that WRCars were reflected in the showroom (and if Ford annouced an AWD Fiesta RS I would be down to the nearest Ford dealership in a flash), but times change and, in the current economic climate, that is the way it has to be.

I have heard the argument for big BHP WRCars citing rallycross supercars as an example several times now and, in my opinion, it is a pointless comparison. Rallycross cars are designed to run for 5 or less minutes on a closed course. Even with the massive improvements in engine reliability, you cannot expect a 500+ BHP engine and drivetrain to hold together over hundreds of stage miles. (And before someone says it, you cannot compare a 500 BHP Group B engine with a modern engine; modern engines are generating FAR much more torque, hence why the modern cars are so much quicker)

I was very sceptical about the switch to 1.6L turbo cars, but I have to confess I've been won over after seeing them in action. The latter 2.0L WRCars are so planted and tidy to watch they look dull, despite their considerable speed. The smaller 1.6L cars are way more skittish on the limit and, despite the smaller engines, continue to break stage records (a bit more noise would be good though).

The big problem at present (as I see it) is getting the sport out there. Manufacturers are returning and, although it is still being won by a Sebastian, he is at least being challenged for the wins. RBMH seem to have been very slack with the PR, but TV coverage has vastly improved in the UK (don't know about the global situation) and, crucially, they finally seem to be embracing social media. Rally is arguably the most difficult motorsport for the casual motorsport fan to spectate, but the internet can deliver it directly to those who aren't enthused about spend a weekend following cars round the woods. Bring the spectacle of modern rally to the masses and get them interested in rally as it is today, that is what will continue to produce generations of hardcore fans.


PS: Sorry, didn't mean to go on for so long!

[Matthew McClune]

Matthew i was driving gokarts when I was 9 years old. I could hardly wait to get my drivers license. But the majority are not like you and me anymore!

Exactly the same, I got an 80cc dune buggy when I was 9! Many happy hours spent out in the fields with that!


In my opinion the OP isn't really in a position to make such a statement; you aren't even looking at Group B through your own rose-tinted spectacles, you are looking at it through another generations rose-tinted spectacles.

Fair point

[giu canbera]

The point is: RACING IS LOOSING AUDIENCE
F1, Indycar, WRC, NASCAR, WTCC...

So the problem is not the format, ugly cars, weird rules, no big ball drivers.... the problem is RACING

[AdvEvo]

No the problem is lazy people hanging on the couch with an ipad/iphone in their hands.

[[WRCRR]]

I think contrary to what some people might think, N.O.T. raised some very valid points. It is simply not possible to go back to some "simpler, better time". The people who don't accept this reality are only going to be tied to their nostalgic views more and more and become less and less relevant to the actual reality as the years go by. You really can't expect the 80's to return when people are spending more time online than outside...is it good or is it bad...who knows. What I do know is that the new generations always lead the way to our future and no matter how hard you try to hold on to the way "things used to be" it is futile in the end.

I don't even see that much wrong in the WRC concept as it is. Sure, there are some stupid rules and shit...but in general things are good - we have 4 (well actually 3 but anyways...) factory teams, soon to be joined by Toyota. The competition is good (the last rally had 3 drivers gunning for the win on the last stage!), sure the best team/driver combination is usually winning but hasn't this always been the case?

In the much heralded Group B times we usually had what, 10 or even less top class entries per rally, the differences where almost always minutes not seconds (sometimes even hours in Safari Rally), cars broke down all the time meaning often the winner was not fastest or best driver but a one reasonably fast who's car didn't break down. And guess what? Most of the times the best team/driver still won the majority of events. Audi won pretty much every time (especially on gravel) in the late Group 4 /early Group B times if it didn't break down. Peugeot and Lancia pretty much took rest of the wins (sans the African events) till the end of Group B.

Rally is niche. It has always been and will always be. Manufacturers will come and go, good and bad drivers will come and go, events will change, rules will change...just the way it is. Instead of complaining all the time it is better to just enjoy what we do have and make to most of it.

Because, really, Motorsport is not the "hot new thing of the future" in any kind of way anyways...and rallying even less so. The age structures of Motorsports Clubs everywhere are getting older as we speak, people are living more and more in cities (which means less and less chance to get involved in rallying) opposed to countryside, events (especially local rallies) are getting more difficult to organize each year...I could go on and on. But you get the point already. The "Golden years" will not return, ever. Firstly because they never were so golden to begin with. And secondly because the world goes on, sometimes to directions you yourself would not prefer, whether you like it or N.O.T. =)

[rayh_mx]

There is, for me 3 things that have made the rally lose strength as the taste of people. There are still many fans, but these involve into the world of rallying through their parents, uncles or fiends who saw the greatest eras of rallying grades.

1. Lack of sponsors: From B here, the group has become politically correct to eliminate brands products harmful to health, goodbye to Marboloro, 555, Rothmans although still smoking in industrial quantities worldwide. I guess because if you smoke you could get cancer, but whether alcoholic beverages, which, of course, can give you liver cirrhosis are allowed. Other sponsors such as motor oil, spare parts and a large etcetera, prefer the tracks that the rally that simple.

2. Missing heroes. I guess most of the finalndeses wanted to be KKK or Tommy, Markku Allen, Gronholm even Toivonen, but now nobody wants to be Jari-Matti. all Spanish speaking we are delighted sassar Carlos and Luis Moya, the French also had many very good drivers and to the English Richard Burns and Colin McCrash, sorry, Sir Mcrae. However, after the 4th consecutive championship Loeb - Citroen everyone began to lose interest. Obviously, his fans not lost. I feel that no young riders who are identified; Who gives current drivers for that.

3. Money talks: There may be best rally piles that currently there, there is a possibility that regional championships could find real promises of the sport, but who in their right mind would invest in them?

[AndyRAC]

To answer the OP's question - NO!!

I can't think of anything worse than having cars that are basic? What would be the point of that? In terms of technology, they're pretty basic as it is; especially compared to a LMP1 car, or F1. 1.6T 4WD is hardly cutting edge, is it?

What is the WRC supposed to be? Who is it for? Is it an entertainment series? Or for technology? What do the Manufacturers want out of it? Are they even the right Manufacturers? Do the current Promoters fully understand the sport? Or do they want to?

Is it enough to keep the current fans happy? Or should they try harder to gain more fans?

Both WRC events this year have been very good; fantastic in the case of Sweden. Yet, away from this forum, there wasn't huge interest. I went on quite a few Motorsport forums/ sites, and you were lucky to get 2 pages of comments. Yet, McLaren unveiled their new F1 car and hundreds of comments......

The Promoters, and everybody, especially the teams need to do more to get the message out there. If you want an example; look at Nissan. That's how to promote your Motorsport programme!!

Finally, maybe the cars need more power, more noise, more spectacle. Maybe events need looking at; they're all far too similar.

[tommeke_B]

The Promoters, and everybody, especially the teams need to do more to get the message out there. If you want an example; look at Nissan. That's how to promote your Motorsport programme!!


What sport are they active in?

[Sulland]

On the tech side i agree with the ones saying that it can not be much more simple than the current formula is.
Next level down is to make R5 the next WRCar, and the new R4 class as the layer 2 car.

So lets think outside the box to improve the current show:

The average joe always look for possibilities for surprise winners, that is never happening anymore. The difference btw a privat WRCar and a Works WRCar is too big.

Maybe they need to go for a system where manufacturers can go the VW way.
Team A: 2 X works cars
Team B: 2 X works cars (own championship?) Could be last years models, or a Jr driver.

All other will have to drive a WRC2 if they are to drive 4WD, but only R5s no RRC.
Aim is to get large WRC2 fields, and more status and competition here.
Can also be the way in for new manufacturers in WRC.

[tommeke_B]

So if I understand it right, Sulland, no privateers with WRC cars anymore? Any other ideas to keep the crowds away? Being a rally enthousiast I'm sure you've been in Sweden. Would you have preferred to see Kubica, Protasov, Prokop in an R5 then? A WRC car is simply more impressive, especially for the "average" WRC spectators. The WRC promotor should do more for privateers in my opinion, they do make a difference.

[OldF]

Rallying used to be about driver skill controlling the machine, but now with fancy computers in the cars, it is more like the car is controlling the driver

2006: Active front and rear differentials and water injection banned.
2008: Mousse tyres banned.
2011: No central differential.

What I would like to see about the cars is to have the weight distribution in more the way that they have use more the Scandinavian / Nordic flick.


Back in the 80s the only way you could watch WRC was up close, maybe some tv shows every now and then and then from VHS and books... and that was also the reason why you considered the drivers and carsof that era that good... the limited amount of information lead you to glorify them.

I partly agree with this. In the past it was not obvious to have a daily highlight if even a summary of a rally, you watched everything that was showed on TV and you were happy with that. This doesn’t mean that I’m happy with highlights I’ve seen recently. When my rally interest part I (part II started about 1984-1985) started in 1965 it was mostly pictures in magazines and know and then in newspapers. The sport journalists didn’t even recognized rallying (or any motorsports) as a sport and I think that’s still going on for some of them.

A surprise for me was that this year rally Sweden had every day about one page in the sport news in the Finnish biggest newspaper (Helsingin Sanomat). Let’s hope that will continue but I doubt that.


When you watch the old ISC highlights from the early 2000s now they seem to have a much better flow to them, a better way of telling the story of the rally. Red Bull's highlights are a mixture of repeating what we've already seen, a few shots from the stages, a crash, plenty of Super Slow-Mo's, a bit of dubstep, a teaser for a crash that's coming up after a break, then after the break all that repeated again. There's too much fluff and too much stop/start, interrupting the 'story' of the event

I didn’t subscribe for WRC last year because the broadcaster changed and it was not possible to subscribe for just WRC. But what I’ve seen nowadays the highlights are very “nervous”. Few seconds of onboard, the drivers face, road side camera, interview etc. It’s a mess. All this could be included in the highlights but not in 30 minutes.

One thing I’m missing from onboards on gravel is the sound of gravel rattling under the car.

Stig Blomqvist - 1000 Lakes Rally 1988 - SS 1 Laajavuori – INCAR (gravel sound)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbYMZOu0AQA

The next one is especially for Jan van Vurppa.

Saab 96 V4 Rally - Ex Works Leo Kinnunen (incar)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yAwcLamQQc

And about the characters.

WRC Rally Finland '99 Juha Kankkunen Subaru Impreza (Onboard cam)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKRQBwWdDYk

Marcus Gronholm's Funniest Moments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF_0PoLbZro

Petter Solberg's Funniest Moments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScfyvIUj6GU

Next one is not WRC but IMO funny.

The Secret of Flying Finns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62AbA1h6PY4



Engine - ECU needs software. Yes, it's been like that with every combustion engine for decades now. Possibly the only special thing about WRC ECU is anti-lag. In the past the 2.0 cars had fancy things like water injection or intercooler water spray but that's all gone for simplification.

- from cost point of view it doesn't matter how much You simplify the cars (for manufacturers at least)

Isn’t launch control still in use?

[EightGear]

What sport are they active in?
Le Mans/WEC.

[tommeke_B]

Le Mans/WEC.

Aha, yeah, great, never heard of it... ;) Endurance racing is probably the most unpopular form of autosport in Belgian media (and any circuit racing in general, apart from F1). Le Mans may have one article after the event (only LE Mans, not the other events) while WRC has some article every day of the event here last couple of years. What makes it to the newspapers is very different from country to country I think, it's not right to say WRC doesn't get any media attention.

[AndyRAC]

What sport are they active in?

Sportscars; GT3; won the recent Bathurst 12 hours, and with formers 'gamers' as their drivers. LMP1 with a mainly FWD car. They ran a 60 sec advert during the SuperBowl, which featured their GT-R LMP1 car.

[Sulland]

So if I understand it right, Sulland, no privateers with WRC cars anymore? Any other ideas to keep the crowds away? Being a rally enthousiast I'm sure you've been in Sweden. Would you have preferred to see Kubica, Protasov, Prokop in an R5 then? A WRC car is simply more impressive, especially for the "average" WRC spectators. The WRC promotor should do more for privateers in my opinion, they do make a difference.

I fully agree, and that has been tried the last years, but with little success.
But very few can get a budget to run a car for a full season, or have a car purely for WRC, and have another one for the national championship. And running your local rally, is for most drivers also getting to expensive. Its all about the money these days!

Maybe if FIA can get a sponsor to offer good pricemoney to private drivers, the number will rise!

[Munkvy]

One thing occurred to me, what about a privateer championship? Not many of them around that do the whole series, but quite a few that do several rounds? And it would add another element of competition, which is arguably fairer on them? Might even entice some who do WRC2/3/Production cup to step up another level, to a series that has fairer competition?

What if there was say a 6 round series for privateers, specific rounds and a little bit of media, ie top 3 actually get mentioned in the highlights package? Easier to sell to privateers and might encourage a little bit more participation? Wouldn't really cost the promoters anything? Would help possibly with increasing numbers and give them an outlet for driving at their level of ability etc. As NOT would say, a ladyboy cup especially for them. As you aren't going to get more cars out in the WRC field from manufacturers.

[tbtstt]

Some great points raised in the thread!


I can't think of anything worse than having cars that are basic? What would be the point of that? In terms of technology, they're pretty basic as it is; especially compared to a LMP1 car, or F1. 1.6T 4WD is hardly cutting edge, is it?
Outwardly no, but considering that the little (restricted) 1.6T cars can beat the times of the unrestricted power houses of the 80's there has obviously been some development there. Of course in the eyes of the layman it's not a massive evolution, especially as some of the current cars look pretty tame.


Is it enough to keep the current fans happy? Or should they try harder to gain more fans?
Both; though the latter should not come at the expense of the former. Stupid gimmicks and rules are not the way to bring younger fans in, properly conveying the sport we have is.


Both WRC events this year have been very good; fantastic in the case of Sweden. Yet, away from this forum, there wasn't huge interest. I went on quite a few Motorsport forums/ sites, and you were lucky to get 2 pages of comments. Yet, McLaren unveiled their new F1 car and hundreds of comments......
Fully agreed. Formula 1 has (and, once again, I'm not trying to offend anyone!) always been the preferred motorsport of the casual motorsport fan. It has always been the "jewel in the crown" for the FiA and it is the motorsport they both fund and promote most heavily, even when they have far better motorsports under their wing.

I have a few friends who are F1 fans and some of them have never even watched another type of motorsport. They believe F1 is the only motorsport worth following as "it's the best" (such is the power of advertising I guess). I find it immensely frustrating as modern F1 is dreadfully dull and, in my opinion, I can't think of many disciplines that are a poorer representation of what motorsport should be (I digress though!).


The Promoters, and everybody, especially the teams need to do more to get the message out there. If you want an example; look at Nissan. That's how to promote your Motorsport programme!!
Others have touched on it in this thread - and forgive me for drifting off topic slightly - but the WEC is (in my opinion) the best thing the FiA have done the last couple of years. Maximum kudos to whoever penned the regulations, as they now have four teams in the premier class with four completely different approaches to the same rule book. It remains to be seen if the fourth approach (Nissan) is as competitive, but I doubt they'd have taken the project this far if it wasn't quick.


Maybe events need looking at; they're all far too similar.
I agree, but the current events we have are sadly a by-product of the age we live in: Health & Safety and costs are both such major factors, that I think the choice of suitable locations has been drastically reduced.

I miss the Safari rally, but its no secret that rally was stupidly expensive to compete in.


2006: Active front and rear differentials and water injection banned.
2008: Mousse tyres banned.
2011: No central differential.

What I would like to see about the cars is to have the weight distribution in more the way that they have use more the Scandinavian / Nordic flick.
Perhaps locked rear diffs (McRae style) could be the way forward? As you say though, a lot of the technology has been removed over the last few years. Compare an onboard from a late 2.0L WRCar with that from a current 1.6L car and you can see the driver is working harder. The cars look far less planted from the outside as well.

It's possibly a coincidence, but removing the timing information from the cars this year seems to have been a good move. Two rallies now where, as others have already said, the result has been decided in the final stage and lead drivers have been split by seconds, not minutes.


;1041021']I don't even see that much wrong in the WRC concept as it is. Sure, there are some stupid rules and shit...but in general things are good - we have 4 (well actually 3 but anyways...) factory teams, soon to be joined by Toyota. The competition is good (the last rally had 3 drivers gunning for the win on the last stage!), sure the best team/driver combination is usually winning but hasn't this always been the case?
Fully agreed. The basic concept is fine and the last thing it needs is more stupid rules or gimmicks to make it more palatable for the casual audience.


;1041021']In the much heralded Group B times we usually had what, 10 or even less top class entries per rally, the differences where almost always minutes not seconds (sometimes even hours in Safari Rally), cars broke down all the time meaning often the winner was not fastest or best driver but a one reasonably fast who's car didn't break down. And guess what? Most of the times the best team/driver still won the majority of events. Audi won pretty much every time (especially on gravel) in the late Group 4 /early Group B times if it didn't break down. Peugeot and Lancia pretty much took rest of the wins (sans the African events) till the end of Group B.

Hear hear. There is no question that Group B was an incredible period of technical innovation, and the cars were truly monsters, but (referring back to my original post in the thread) it was not the greatest overall era of the sport in my opinion.

[stefanvv]

Locked rear diffs? This would be quite funny, spectacle nonetheless.

[AL14]

Don't want to seem rude or unrespectful but you guys are worrying too much about techincal aspects nobody outside this forum care. Yes they have an importance for sure but WRC has not lost that kind of spectators.

[stefanvv]

Yes of course nobody has to be tech agnostic. But isn't this thread mostly about "the cars"?

[Formaldehyde]

In practice, "making the WRC more exciting" means "coming up with new technical aspects that nobody outside this forum cares about".

[AL14]

Yes of course nobody has to be tech agnostic. But isn't this thread mostly about "the cars"?

Yes it is, it is perfectly on topic. What I wanted to say is that it is useless, the whole thread, IF you want to make those changes in order to have more public in the WRC like it was on '80. That's why I said I didn't want to seem disrespectful. :)

[stefanvv]

it is useless, the whole thread

agree, quite useless thread as nothing is going to be changed

[Mirek]

Isn’t launch control still in use?

Actually not as it was known in the past. Current launch control is only an adjustable rpm limiter. I'm quite sure about S2000 and S1600 and I suppose it's same with current WRC. Maybe after 2015 change to hydraulic gearboxes it could change. Does anyone know?

[Sulland]

Is there a plan in FIA to do something to the WRCar in 2017, or is that only a rumor that larger cars will come in?

But apart from that, how can we best get a wider field that can fight for victories, or is that utopia. The rally world championship will never be wider than 2-6 manufacturers and their top drivers?
Or are there ways to improve the thrill of world rallying?

[giu canbera]

I'd like to suggest a different approach guys...

I'm new here (I'm 29y.o.) and I just got into WRC (since the 3 last races from last year) because of RallyCross, so I really like the current cars, sound, tech, cuz they are all related to my new favorite racing series. RallyX ('I've been watching since 2012).

If WRC and you guys here are planning to "atract younger fans" then you should focus on presenting RallyX to young people. You can really steal ANY CASUAL F1 FAN with that concept. For real. ANY CASUAL FAN! I know most of people here will scream that RallyX sucks and etc, but think of it as something to BRING RALLY CARS into people... Once they get into those cars, drivers and series.. its kinda like IMPOSSIBLE to them to not look out for "Whats Rally?".. Then.. the first image they will find its gonna be a jumping WRC machine around threes and mud and people watching it from inside the track. Its impossible to not think "WOOW THESE GUYS NEEDS BALLS"..
I really think that should be one of the steps for WRC right now. It worked for me and a few more RallyX fans that I've met online

Oh.. also I'd like to blame manufacturers for putting efforts in WRC, WEC, GT, NASCAR, ETC... and they are still NOT BRINGING "racing things to the street cars". And They should! Which one would you buy? haha
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9q8gSaIUAATP8b.png


Hope no one gets offended by this, ok.

[Sladden]

So like me you'd like to see more of a driver input on the gear changes?

I like Think that motorsport can only be spearhead of technology as long as it does not take over for the driver to much. Its not that big a deal with the paddles but its a symbol.

Lets make people exited about rally cars again is what Im saying. Outside of hardcores not many Think about VW Polos or Citroen C3 in a dreamlike fashion. Like with the Escort Cosworth, Peugeot 205 or Subaru Impreza...not even Close!

[Sladden]

One thing I’m missing from onboards on gravel is the sound of gravel rattling under the car.
Totally agree! That was something I Always was thinking about driving on a gravel road...this sounds just like the rally onboards! Simple stuff like that made a big difference to the feeling of being inside the car!

[smsgrafica]

Outside of hardcores not many Think about VW Polos or Citroen C3 in a dreamlike fashion. Like with the Escort Cosworth, Peugeot 205 or Subaru Impreza...not even Close!

That's because real life cars used to look exactly like their WRC counterpart. Now you just see boring hatchbacks on the streets.

YESTERDAY:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/cozzfather/repsol1.jpg

http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/16111795/epcp_0901_01_z+1996_ford_escort_rs_cosworth+full_v iew.jpg

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0705_2008_subaru_impreza_wrx/9237443/112_0705_11z%2Bpeter_solberg_subaru_impreza_rally_ car%2Bsliding.jpg

http://static.classistatic.de/imagegallery/subaru/impreza/subaru-impreza-sub_imp_06_wrx_sti_6.jpg

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Mitsubishi/mitsubishi_lancer_Evo_VII_WRC2_manu-02_07.jpg

http://www.houstoncars.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/WindowsLiveWriter/aed669d02106_10B86/2007-mitsubishi-evo-IX%5B2%5D.jpg

[smsgrafica]

TODAY:

http://www.wrc.com/fileadmin/images/Teams/1988_VW_VW-Polo-2014_1.jpg

http://immagini.alvolante.it/sites/default/files/styles/editor_1_colonna/public/news_galleria/volkswagen-polo-r-wrc_11.jpg?itok=y3_0ctgt

http://images.wrc.com/News/2015/January/4902_livery-2015_001_896x504.jpg

http://immagini.alvolante.it/sites/default/files/styles/anteprima_lunghezza_640/public/news_galleria/ford-fiesta-st_14.jpg?itok=yk2QG55_

http://www.wrc.com/fileadmin/images/Teams/1986_Hyundai_Hyundai-i20-2014_1.jpg

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Hyundai/2011-Hyundai-i20-Image-012.jpg

[Gregor-y]

Tricking your car out with various Group N homologated parts was always worth a few bragging points when I was younger. Subaru's engine mounts in particular are a nice alternative to the rock-hard silicone stuff the aftermarket sells. My old Impreza had a lot of group N bushings scattered around on it.
http://i.imgur.com/HGaxTUH.jpg

[Zeakiwi]

Ford might have a Ford Fiesta RS in the pipeline.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/fiesta/85091/sizzling-250bhp-ford-fiesta-rs-to-take-fight-to-polo-r

[denkimi]

money is not the issue, because no team will ever have enough of it. if they have 20 million, they will spend 20 million. it they have 100 million, they will spend a 100 million. if they cant spend it on titanium parts, they will spend it on the development of more aerodynamic doorhandles or lighter fire extinguishers.


One thing occurred to me, what about a privateer championship? Not many of them around that do the whole series, but quite a few that do several rounds? And it would add another element of competition, which is arguably fairer on them? Might even entice some who do WRC2/3/Production cup to step up another level, to a series that has fairer competition?

What if there was say a 6 round series for privateers, specific rounds and a little bit of media, ie top 3 actually get mentioned in the highlights package? Easier to sell to privateers and might encourage a little bit more participation? Wouldn't really cost the promoters anything? Would help possibly with increasing numbers and give them an outlet for driving at their level of ability etc. As NOT would say, a ladyboy cup especially for them. As you aren't going to get more cars out in the WRC field from manufacturers.

what they should do is allow privateers to score manufacturer points. count the 2 best placed cars of a marque, no matter what team they belong to.
that way manufacturers will be encouraged to support privateers like kubica.

[stefanvv]

what they should do is allow privateers to score manufacturer points. count the 2 best placed cars of a marque, no matter what team they belong to.
that way manufacturers will be encouraged to support privateers like kubica.

That is very good as an idea, but I don't see any other manufacturer than M-Sport to make profit from privateers in WRC field. And they are not even a manufacturer, funny.
Manufacturers seem to not care much about the private field any more, don't they.

[Mirek]

Such point-scoring system worked very well in IRC in the past, that's true.

[Gregor-y]

Then we'll have a flood of Lancias, er, Fords, in every event. Still, I like the idea.

[Mk2 RS2000]

Back to the future, how many of you remember the days when the highest places three vehicles of a marque scored the manufacturers points.
In those days it was not uncommon for a number of local competitors to gain a little assistance to participate as they were effectively the next cab of the rank should one of the "works" cars fail
Of course in those days one could build their own car to the regulations, cars that could be the same specification as the works cars.

Fast forward 30 years into the future does anyone expect to see a similar number of todays WRC spec cars in historic rallying as we see of the likes of Escorts, Lancia, Datsun, Porsche etc that we see in historic rallies today?

[stefanvv]

Why one would care about to see 30 years old Hyunday i20 when he can see 60 years old Quattro? :)
On the serious note I doubt someone will miss current WRC cars, as there are not many of them. Even Fiesta would be just few numbers after so many years.... or may be not. Who know what the future will bring, may be today cars would be actually beasts comparing to future cars, never know.

[LouKayne]

The cars now a days have half the tech that the cars from the early 2000s. They had Traction Control, ABS, Launch Control, Electronic Front/Centre/Rear Diffs, Electronic suspension...Etc.

[litifeta]

all the technology motor racing brings and few manufacturers offer a double clutch option. Talk about missing the point.

[Zeakiwi]

Back to the future, how many of you remember the days when the highest places three vehicles of a marque scored the manufacturers points.
In those days it was not uncommon for a number of local competitors to gain a little assistance to participate as they were effectively the next cab of the rank should one of the "works" cars fail
Of course in those days one could build their own car to the regulations, cars that could be the same specification as the works cars.

Fast forward 30 years into the future does anyone expect to see a similar number of todays WRC spec cars in historic rallying as we see of the likes of Escorts, Lancia, Datsun, Porsche etc that we see in historic rallies today?

Back over 30 years ago in the Group 4 era or more recently Group A - the works cars usually had an advantage - the latest homologated parts and tweaks compared to the semi-works/ works supported privateer in an old works car or a privately built car. It was Group A+ for a works car and Group A for the privateer.
It was always good to see the works team giving support to a privateer after the works cars had crashed or the latest tweak had blown engines.
I would expect in 30 years time petrol engines could be banned and a historic competitor would need to fit a Tesla Roadster electric drive train to take part in a closed road event (if they have not been banned too)

[LouKayne]

all the technology motor racing brings and few manufacturers offer a double clutch option. Talk about missing the point.

Who is missing the point?

[LouKayne]

So like me you'd like to see more of a driver input on the gear changes?

The paddle shift mechanism reissued for this year World Rally Cars is only pneumatic, not hydraulic like the pre 2011 era. And you clearly haven't driven a rally car if you want a H-pattern gearbox in a World Rally Car. At the speeds you go in a world rally car, the shortened gear ratio and twisty roads it would be the World Gear-changing Championship. I had the privilege of driving a 1995 Toyota Celica Gr. A and a 1999 Ford Focus WRC, and my arm almost fell off in the Celica. In the Focus, I could deal more on placing the car because it had the joystick and not having to heel and toe and just left foot brake.