WRC, marketing and car buyer behaviour

[jonkka]

Right. In news & rumors thread I asked about this but let's expand it a little bit since slow holiday season is coming up and WRC news are somewhat scarce.

If you like, this can turn into deep philosophical discussion about how much WRC involvement affects manufacturer's image and helps their marketing efforts. However, since we do not know what big bosses discuss in the cabinets and what the marketing strategies are, I don't think that as very fruitful venue.

The more light-hearted theme this thread might take is "what car you have - what car would you buy - does rallying affect your car buying decision" - type of chat.

I myself drive Volvo S80 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_S80#First_generation_.281998.E2.80.932006.29 ). I bought it because it's one of the very few cars that has just about everything I like in a car in one package. Most important of those qualities are beauty in classic sense, sufficient size and elegance that suits my taste. The only thing that I miss in it is 4WD, now that I live in rural area.

What car I would buy? Since I am very happy with my current car and I drive very little, I have not given much thought to which of the current cars I might buy. Since Volvo was sold to Chinese, I definitely won't be buying any of those. Mercedes has too strong F1 image and I hate it (see, sports does affect buying decision!). BMW's are so ugly, yikes. But the newer VW Passats, possibly the 4WD version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Passat#Passat_Alltrack) might tempt me.

And the answer to final question is no, rallying in itself does not affect my car buying decision (except what's said above). I do buy car solely on qualities that have nothing to do with WRC. I do not want extreme (or even good) performance, I am too old for that. I don't care about sporty (but often false) outlook that some cars have. Also, cars that are used as base for WRCars are too small segment for me and designed for people with different taste and needs than I have.

[EightGear]

It's a pure coincidence, but my parents own a Ford Focus and before that a Subaru Legacy. Rallying doesn't have to do anything with it.

[AndyRAC]

To be honest the only series that really trades on ‘road relevance’ and new technology is the WEC.
I’m not going to buy a Fiesta, Polo, DS3 or i20 just because they’re used as a basis for a WRCar. They have absolutely nothing in common with the road car. Which then raises the question. So, what’s it for? Why do it? Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. Can you blame Ford for pulling out of the WRC when sponsoring the UEFA Champions League gives them much more exposure. Only the other day, Volvo announced they were pulling out of almost all sponsorships – apart from the Volvo Yacht race.

[N.O.T]

rallying and motorsports in general affect only a very small number of buyers.

When it comes to decision making, very few people will buy ford/citroen/vw/bmw/audi because of its involvement in rallying/motorsport.

A bit more people will take into account that a make has some kind of involvement in motorsport because they believe that the manufacturer has some kind of expertise.

The large part of the population will probably buy some vehicle for their everyday needs with no account of motorsport whatsoever since the general public are mostly incompetent sad stories with families who just run towards their inevitable demise without any appetite to try the nice things in life. but even those little miserable disappointments when they go through the channels and see a motorsport the subliminal message passes and could affect their decision when they choose their sad vehicle to continue with their sad little lives...

so yeah motorsport is good for the wallet of the manufacturers now go buy a Polo R... it won the WRC 2 years running...

[stefanvv]

I would definitely not buy any model just because it is involved in Rallying. For me the most important things are - to be comfortable for long journeys, so D-Segment car, to be reliable, for my country roads conditions - very, very reliable (German cars proved to be that case here), preferably 4x4, just because I like driving with ultimate capabilities. Successful motorsport involvement definitely has huge factor in my decision. Preferably a sport with cars similar to road cars. I also like the balance of V6 engine. So I drive AUDI, figure it out...

That is for me. I wanted to say some suggestion for other people, but N.O.T. already said it (in his own way of course, I wouldn't use such words:p for the rest of the bunch)

In my home town though I've seen some cars with Rally spirit, an Impreza with sparking 555 colors and some Lancia model with the beautiful Martini colours. Don't know the model, but it wasn't Delta, similar size though. Seems Rally has some influence in really hard core fans.

If I would buy 2nd car which has something in common with Rally, it would be Sport Quattro. But just for fun, not for everyday/long driving.

[RS]

What car I would buy? Since I am very happy with my current car and I drive very little, I have not given much thought to which of the current cars I might buy. Since Volvo was sold to Chinese, I definitely won't be buying any of those. Mercedes has too strong F1 image and I hate it (see, sports does affect buying decision!). BMW's are so ugly, yikes. But the newer VW Passats, possibly the 4WD version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Passat#Passat_Alltrack) might tempt me.


Skoda is the answer of course. Good range of 4wd vehicles, rallying involvement, perhaps less bland styling than VW depending on personal preference :)

[[WRCRR]]

I think one big issue is also that the rally cars today are not based on sports models of their respectable manufacturers anymore. Cars like the Integrale, Celica GT-Four or the Impreza were actual sports models that you could buy - and they looked pretty damn close to their rally brethens. Nowadays you really can't buy a DS3 WRC or Polo R WRC "replica", the best you can get is some RS model of the same basic small car...not really cutting it, is it?

In fact, lately I have seriously wondered why car companies are even doing motorsports programs in series like WRC. And like we all know, teams like VW are pretty often wondering that themselves. Surely there is much better publicity on offer through sponsoring the likes of Champions League or similar like AndyRAC already said.

Most of the people see VW or Hyundai rally ads like any other car ad. Is it really that wise to spend all that money and try to win WRC which has very little publicity nowadays to begin with, when you could just have the same ad in more "extreme" fashion with Ken Block "hooning" in a souped up dudebro edition of your newest model - "winning" every time? ;)

[Mirek]

It's not about direct connection Polo WRC - stock Polo. It's about being on the eyes of people as much as possible. With motorsport it's probably a little more efficient than sponsoring ice hockey, tennis, football or Tour de France but the main goal is same. If you watch, read or discuss one brand 3x more often than the other there is a higher chance you buy their car. Simple as that. The direct way works for special brands like Subaru.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

In the UK I would say that only Subaru and Mitsubishi gained real sales directly from WRC involvement as they were selling their 'rally replica' models of Impreza & Evo mainly to people who followed the sport.

Of the current manufacurers, I would say only Ford (via M-Sport) gain anything at all in the UK. I dont see any VW, Citroen or Hyundai buyer being influenced in the slightest by the WRC.

Ford has a long history of motorsport and big car sales in Britain and I think there is still some residual benefit of its association with the WRC here.

I have owned many hot-hatches, mostly French, as they were the best to drive. But I switched to Ford with the Focus Mk1 and then two Mk2 Focus ST225's as they were both great to drive and cheap to run and now also modern and reliable. The Ford link with WRC had little effect on my choice but I do feel an affinity with the M-Sport team. So it has had the opposite effect - I bought the car, then support its WRC team, and not the other way round !

[stefanvv]

Well concerning VW, I don't thing they ever believed so much that WRC will sell their Polo. Last year they had some ads on different events with some models, some snow monster in Sweden, a pick-up truck (I think) in Argentina, so besides the wins, they are making its marketing along with WRC. Still they made a "smaller" Rally version of the already small Polo, don't know how much they sell it though. But it is also ad directly related to Rally of the brand as a whole.

[Lousada]

Americans are the masters of advertising and they studied the buying behaviour of followers of nascar/indycar.
They concluded that motorsportfans are: 1. the most brand-loyal carbuyers. 2. spending more money on their car than 'normal' people 3. most likely to chat to others about their cars.
Simply stated: motorsportfans are the best customers a brand can have. The Champions League reaches more people, yes, but motorsport reaches more potential customers. That explains a little why some brands keep throwing money at motorsport even though it appears to make little sense from a direct marketing perspective.

To get on topic, I own an Opel Astra OPC and have it serviced at a garage operated by a local rally-driver. So yes, rally did have an impact on my car-buying decisions! And my next car will be inflluenced by motorsport too, I am sure!

[macebig]

I for one i am very motorsport dependant on cars.As a little child my family owned a ford capri in a light blue color similar to the benetton one.So when schumacher won the championship with them i became and instant supporter of the blue oval.Latter when the great,late Colin McRae joined Ford and released his rally games with a Focus on the cover the deal has been sealed.Guess what was the first car i bought?Yeah, a Ford Focus in light blue.And if i change it i will only go for a Fiesta.
Ps Local police cars include many Skoda Octavias and its an amusing sight to see a WRC looking rear wing added as many policemen have gone for that conversion.

[stefanvv]

Ps Local police cars include many Skoda Octavias and its an amusing sight to see a WRC looking rear wing added as many policemen have gone for that conversion.

May be they try to scare a bit nasty drivers:)

[Ounin]

Difficult thread to be honest jonkka. On this topic you must at least have a degree on university to have an opinion or to get a proper PR job in car industry. Let alone for us forum clowns ;-). At this moment, Toyota is on the verge of participating in WRC. In a few months, Nissan is entering the WEC with pinpoint Le Mans. The world crisis is decreasing and almost all car manufactures are going to be involved again. Considering the huge costs, I guess it must be a very very important marketing tool indeed. So it's not a question of throwing money away, you just miss the train if you don't participate.
And the reason a WRC Polo that wins the championship twice does not sell more Polo's on the street, but still is crucial for VW, guess it's all about Brand Awareness isn't it.
Apart from the difference between rallying and circuit racing, most relevance to the car on the street we all drive is to my opinion WEC, with Audi/Toyota/Porsche/Nissan as front runners on f.i. Hybrid technology / fuel management and their totally different approaches how to get it on its four wheels. Guess that's the reason FIA decided not to implement this on the WRC scene in '17 cause then, it is already developed and would only be cost increasing to all the teams.
Very interesting video of Ulrich Baretzky, head of VAG Motorsport engine development, about the way they look at things, the reason I ask my boss every time to buy an Audi ;-)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1TAhWdVU3M4

[Franky]

I'll borrow a line from a 2013 Dodge advertisement, which pretty much gives an idea why motorsport is important for manufacturers.

"We are willing to bet no kid ever grew up with a poster of Passat on his bedroom wall"

As I mentioned in the first discussion (the posts in news and rumours) that the only car brand with rallying history is my current car. Tho it's the last generation Impreza which to my knowledge hasn't been used in the sport. Also the first word that many associate with Subaru and Impreza, rallying (history) didn't play importance in the choosing of the car. The plan was to get the latest Mazda 3 (had driven an old 626 for about two years, so Lousada's mentioned loyalty may have affected my thinking there) but the salesmen were lousy - no offers, minimal interest in selling the car. Then went to the Subaru dealership, didn't like the interior design at first and actually had ruled out Impreza completely from the car list. But I liked how it felt to drive (took it to places where the road wasn't smooth) and know the mechanical reliability (Forester has been in the family for years). And of course a great price played role in the end.

But speaking of Subaru. It's a strange brand in Estonia, because from around 2008 their cars (mostly Forester and Outback) have become more and more popular in Estonia. The number of sold Subaru's has increased every year. Last year they sold a bit over 1000 Subarus here. Total Subaru sales in Europe is around 39 thousand mark and decreasing. Also heard that Latvia and Lithuania combined and Finland sold less Subarus.

[Grundo Farb]

This thread got me thinking what were/are my cars and why?

Scary result:

First car in 1990 was a Toyota Celica GT-R - couldn't get the 4WD so settled for the next sporty version of the current rally car.

Next car, Mitsubishi Lancer EVO 4 - why? Tommy of course...

Next car, Renault Scenic - had a family...

Next car, Lancia Volumex - same supercharged engine (smaller supercharger as a 037). Why? Obvious surely! This is now converted into a tarmac rally car.

Have I been heavily influenced by rallying? Absolutel. Has it made a difference in the cars I like and want to buy. Yes.

Will the new generation make me buy one? No. Because unlike my list above there is NO direct link between the WRC cars and one I can buy. My previous cars all had engine parts in common or other directly traceble parts. An example: I sourced a Colotti LSD designed for the rally car which I installed in my gearbox for my Lancia.

I remember Colin Macrae describing the first generation Focus WRC where the only thing in common was the indicator and light stalks.

Previous relationship yes but now none at all I'm afraid.

I now ride a Ducati - Why? You can guess...

[BDA Cosworth]

Take the following scenario.

Lady who knows nothing about cars. Not sure what she will buy. Has an idea of which ones she likes the look of but that's it. Starts doing some research, starts to rule some out because they don't suit her needs. She then wants a second opinion from a friend, she will more then likely ask a male who knows a bit about cars. I step in and tell her the Fiesta has the best driving dynamics in class. The polo the most mature with better build quality. The Mazda 2 is the older shape and is will be replaced next year so that is ruled out. I have a bios towards the Ford Fiesta as I have heard news about the DSG and the twin charged 1.2L engines (she's looking at the 1.4L but that's a bit sluggish). She is now sold on the Fiesta. Ford receive $$$.

I don't drive any anything that is related to motorsport. My TDCI Mondeo was simply the best car I could find with a very long list of prerequisites that a Voltswagon Passat just couldn't quite satisfy (it was a very close second).

I've started to come around on Hyundai stuff also. I think rallying is good for Hyundai.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Just been reading a review for the new 2015 Skoda Fabia... in which it states this time there wont be a vRS version.

Further proof that manufacturers are only in rallying to raise their overall profile and not to sell a particular model or to attract the fan of performance cars.

[AndyRAC]

I think that was stated when the new Fabia was announced. Apart from the UK, it wasn't a huge seller. A shame, as the first diesel only vRS was a great little car.

[GigiGalliNo1]

RS Fabia wasn't a top seller... Too costly to build so they have it the flick for next model

[GigiGalliNo1]

But regarding sales coming from the WRC...?

My first car was a Citroen C2, though I didn't buy it because of Loeb and the C4, I knew and followed the WRC for a while, before that I got my parents to buy a Mitsubishi Lancer.

After my C2, I bought the new Polo GTI which is the same shape as the Polo R WRC.

Have sold that as it wasn't reliable, engine block replaced twice, clutch replaced twice, Pistons replaced due to oil leaking and other issues.

I've now moved on to the new Škoda Octavia RS Combi and love it. Bought it as I knew the Fabia RS was a winner in the ERC and have wanted a Škoda for a while! I needed to upsize so couldn't get a Fiesta.... Focus maybe.

That's my story. Citroen in Australia same with Ford and VW don't really advertise the sport and the cars in it which is a shame...

[stefanvv]

RS Fabia wasn't a top seller... Too costly to build so they have it the flick for next model

That's also interesting from marketing point, because the big German trio tuned models are very successful I believe - RS from AUDI, AMG from Mercedes and M from BMW. Probably they doesn't take huge numbers in sales also, they're not supposed to, but these companies are still doing them with the same passion for decades.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Shame that a brand like Skoda that has such a rally history and so much recent success with the Fabia cant make a performance model... :(

What is the point of all this '50 Golden wins' glory when all they sell are dull, sturdy workhorses ?

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10634126_394094147412560_560908323603371751_o.jpg

[Mirek]

They have never sold a proper performance model. All RS has always been something like an affordable fast cars. They know their place on the car market and that's why they are successful.

Anyway the new Octavia RS is faster than previous two generations and I would not rule Fabia RS off as well. All generations of Fabia started without RS and the RS came only several years later.

It may be interesting for some of you that there were prototypes of higher performance cars but they were never allowed for serial production (I don't know the exact reason). For example there was Octavia II RS VR6 4x4.

[stefanvv]

It may be interesting for some of you that there were prototypes of higher performance cars but they were never allowed for serial production (I don't know the exact reason). For example there was Octavia II RS VR6 4x4.

Yep, that sounds like something I would drive with pleasure.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I'm not denying Skoda have been successful 'in their market' but I dont know how much that is to do with their involvement in rallying.

Before they became part of the VW Group Skoda's class wins in rallying were all about toughness and reliability which was fine for the tough cheap cars they sold.

But now all cars are pretty tough and reliable and VW have moved Skoda more mainstream so I would think they would capitalise on their winning rally car more and have a hot-hatch to sell against the Fiesta, Clio, 208 etc.

[Mirek]

You still don't understand how marketing works.

[RS]

It may be interesting for some of you that there were prototypes of higher performance cars but they were never allowed for serial production (I don't know the exact reason). For example there was Octavia II RS VR6 4x4.

I read on a Czech site they tested the Octavia3 RS with 4wd too, but it looks like we may get a more powerful 2wd RS instead?

Re: the Fabia RS it may not have sold enough, but it sold more than the equipment Polo and Ibiza in the UK at least.

[Mirek]

The soon to come Superb is equipped with 2.0 TFSI 202 kW (274 Hp). I can imagine that the same engine may come to Octavia RS in the future.

[jolle1982]

Two years ago. In the rally programm of rally cesky krumlov there was a carmagazin with an articel about a skoda octavia 3 scout rs. I hope to see this car on street soon ;-)

[AdvEvo]

I have owned subaru GT Turbo 2 times and evo 6, 7 and 8. I would love to own ford fiesta RS 4wd with mechanical diffs like my old evo 6 RS. I would not mind it s polo hyundai or vw polo or citroen ds3 either.

But don t bring FWD cars with a bunch of WRC badges on the car. I stay far away for those.

It s real shame WRC teams only have the fun for themselves. Marketing wise they could do so much more if they could bring a 4wd drive special like an evo 6 RS

[Mirek]

That's not true unfortunately. If they could do any fortune with performance 4WD cars they would do it. They are no idiots after all. The sad fact is that cars like Evo became totally non-profitable except for few carmakers whose brands are strong enough for selling small number of cars for very high prices. None of WRC-engaged brands is such. VW or Hyundai are huge enough so that they could afford to waste few billions to sell a series of image-making vehicles but the others hardly. The market for such vehicles is ridiculously small and moreover it brings problems with corporate fuel consumption and stronger and stronger emission standards.

[AndyRAC]

I read on a Czech site they tested the Octavia3 RS with 4wd too, but it looks like we may get a more powerful 2wd RS instead?

Re: the Fabia RS it may not have sold enough, but it sold more than the equipment Polo and Ibiza in the UK at least.

The first vRS Fabia was a quite cheap car - less than £12,000 if I remember. The second version was closer to the competition; £15,000+

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That's not true unfortunately. If they could do any fortune with performance 4WD cars they would do it. They are no idiots after all. The sad fact is that cars like Evo became totally non-profitable except for few carmakers whose brands are strong enough for selling small number of cars for very high prices. None of WRC-engaged brands is such. VW or Hyundai are huge enough so that they could afford to waste few billions to sell a series of image-making vehicles but the others hardly. The market for such vehicles is ridiculously small and moreover it brings problems with corporate fuel consumption and stronger and stronger emission standards.

So why does VW make the Golf R that is the nearest thing to a 4WD rally car for the public road ? Are they idiots ? Are they losing money on every car ?

No, they are the smartest and making the car everybody wants and all the magazines praise as the best.

The rest have all missed a trick by not doing the same.

[tommeke_B]

No, they are the smartest and making the car everybody wants and all the magazines praise as the best.

Everybody wants it but nobody will pay 40 000 euros for it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Everybody wants it but nobody will pay 40 000 euros for it.

So VW made a mistake making it ? No, its a 'halo' car to promote the rest of the VW range and makes everyone think VW are leading the field.

[Mirek]

So why does VW make the Golf R that is the nearest thing to a 4WD rally car for the public road ? Are they idiots ? Are they losing money on every car ?

No, they are the smartest and making the car everybody wants and all the magazines praise as the best.

The rest have all missed a trick by not doing the same.

I have answered in my post. Read it again please.

[tommeke_B]

So VW made a mistake making it ? No, its a 'halo' car to promote the rest of the VW range and makes everyone think VW are leading the field.
Following that theory we would have seen a lot of cheaper versions of the Subaru's and Mitsubishi's driving on the streets...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I have answered in my post. Read it again please.

I read it and its contradictory:

First, 'None of WRC-engaged brands is such'. Then you say, 'VW or Hyundai are huge enough...'


VW are making a great car that is improving their image and doing so while being the winning rally team. Coincidence ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Following that theory we would have seen a lot of cheaper versions of the Subaru's and Mitsubishi's driving on the streets...

OK, so why did they make them then then ? just for the fun of it ?

[N.O.T]

Mirek do not bother anymore please... my brain hurts.

[litifeta]

Buying behaviour has changed a lot since the days of EVOs and WRXs being in the WRC and being so much like a road car. The organisation I work for is one of the biggest importers of cars in the Asia Pacific. We have countries in which we bring BMW, Ferrari, Porsche, Hyundai, Renault, Citroen and others where we retail Nissans.

Renault sales for the hot hatch were remarkably boosted by Mark Webber in F1 in Australia, even though he never amounted to much. The Renault sales guys used to say people would come in for a Megane and discover there was no dual clutch, so they would head up to VW having already decided on a hot hatch.

I walked into my city's biggest VW dealer last week and there was not a single poster or anything to indicate VW had won the WRC.

I have no idea about other countries, but rally in Australia does not sell a lot of cars anymore. Ford and GM still have a following because of V8 Supercars, but that is about to end as well.

[AdvEvo]

It is incredible that manufacturers don't make more from competing in wrc.

I started rallying on my 40th and the strange thing is I am building an e30 m3 gr a rally car.

I will explain why.

Why no evo or Subaru. R4 is fased out and evo stopped production and Subaru is more focussed on 24h Nurburgring than rallying.

R5 cars are to expensive for private rally drivers.

Gr n is a very nice class but no manufactures anymore. So if you want a fia approved car the only way to go is old gr a.

Fwd is no option for me. Rally must give me pleasure and a fwd car doesn't t cut it for me.

Then you have the gt86 rally car R3 this car will lose against r3 fwd cars and for that money I rather drive something else.

So that leaves not much if you have gr n money to spend if you want something that is fia approved.

I wished there were more manufactures who stepped into gr n class.

You now see lots of rally drivers pick old fia rally cars to do historic because there is not much choice for gr n money.

Gr n 2.0 Audi a1 Quattro
Gr n 2.0 Bmw 1 series x drive
Gr n Mercedes a45 amg

I would be sure buying that for my rally needs Next to my Bmw gr a

[AndyRAC]

Actually, you can buy a car seen on WRC/ERC stages; if you can afford it... ;)
the Porsche 911 GT3

[AdvEvo]

Andy

Sure porsche is nice. But it would be nice to see some new 4wd gr N cars which are affordable.