Questions: Technical development of an R2 rally car

[Lundefaret]

Hello

I have a couple of questions regarding the technical regulations and development of an R2 rally car:

1) If the car in question does not come standard with a 1600 NA engine, can one put a 1600 NA engine in it so it can comply with the rules?
2) If so, what is the rules of putting in this engine, regarding manufacturer etc?

Do anybody know the answer to this?

[Mirek]

Prior this year it was not possible to put an engine from other car but since 2014 it is possible. This rule was changed to allow Opel to homologate the Adam R2 (no stock Adam 1.6 exists). The engine must come from the portfolio of the same brand. I don't know the exact rules though.

[Lundefaret]

Prior this year it was not possible to put an engine from other car but since 2014 it is possible. This rule was changed to allow Opel to homologate the Adam R2 (no stock Adam 1.6 exists). The engine must come from the portfolio of the same brand. I don't know the exact rules though.

Thank You very much Mirek!

[Mirek]

By the way I expect soon some R2T option to come. The atmospheric 1.6 engines are disappearing, for example the whole VAG group uses them only in Russia and Asia. I guess it will be something like 1.2 turbo which would suit all European manufacturers.

[Paul Hudson]

Did Skoda not homologate a Engine only for the Fabia R2 car ?, a few years ago ?. They did not have a 1.6 Petrol car in the Fabia road car range.

[Mirek]

No, they did have the engine in Fabia but only on Russian market. That's why the homologation was so late that time because the production in Russia was quite slow and they were waiting for enough cars produced. Besides that Škoda Motorsport was not working on the car as it was a private project. They only provided homologation and helped with several tests but that's all as far as I know.

[OldF]

Looking at the homologations, the Adam’s engine is from an Astra.

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/ToutesVoitures_16.09.2014.pdf (page 7)

Looks like the turbo engines will be allowed from beginning of 2015.

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/260%20%2814-15%29_12.09.2014.pdf

The cars are divided up according to their engine cylinder capacity into the following classes:
Added as from 01.01.2015 :

Normally aspirated engine / Supercharged engine
R1A up to 1390 cm3 / up to 927 cm3
R1B over 1390 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3 / over 927 cm3 and up to 1067 cm3
R2B over 1390 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3 / over 927 cm3 and up to 1067 cm3
R2C over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3 / over 1067 cm3 and up to 1333 cm3
R3C over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3 / over 1067 cm3 and up to 1333 cm3


What is there or coming on the market?

[Mirek]

That's somewhat strange. Up to 1333 ccm turbocharged in R3? Current R3T cars have up to 1620 ccm.

[Sulland]

Looking at the homologations, the Adam’s engine is from an Astra.

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/ToutesVoitures_16.09.2014.pdf (page 7)

Looks like the turbo engines will be allowed from beginning of 2015.

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/260%20%2814-15%29_12.09.2014.pdf

The cars are divided up according to their engine cylinder capacity into the following classes:
Added as from 01.01.2015 :

Normally aspirated engine / Supercharged engine
R1A up to 1390 cm3 / up to 927 cm3
R1B over 1390 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3 / over 927 cm3 and up to 1067 cm3
R2B over 1390 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3 / over 927 cm3 and up to 1067 cm3
R2C over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3 / over 1067 cm3 and up to 1333 cm3
R3C over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3 / over 1067 cm3 and up to 1333 cm3


What is there or coming on the market?

Why 1390 and not 1400 ccm?
and same engine in R2 and R3 C category, so what is the difference?

[Lundefaret]

These volum rules would be easy to explain to a newcomer;)

[Mirek]

And same engine in R2 and R3 C category, so what is the difference?

Just one point... this has been like that since the introduction of R classes. It's not the number but the letter what represents the engine. The number represents allowed level of tuning. R2C and R3C have always had same cylinder capacity just to my knowledge no manufacturer ever homologated R2C car. Same case is R1B and R2B where both are up to 1600 ccm but R1 is stock car while R2 is reasonably more advanced one.

[OldF]

I wondered from where the peculiar engine volumes come from but the coefficient is about 1,5 (927 * 1,5 = 1390,5 / 1067 * 1,5 = 1600,5 / 1333 * 1,5 = 1999,5)

I checked the turbo coefficient and it’s still 1,7 for petrol engines (1,5 for diesel engines). What could be the reason for such coefficient?

[stefanvv]

What could be the reason for such coefficient?

Turbo pressure?

[Sulland]

Just one point... this has been like that since the introduction of R classes. It's not the number but the letter what represents the engine. The number represents allowed level of tuning. R2C and R3C have always had same cylinder capacity just to my knowledge no manufacturer ever homologated R2C car. Same case is R1B and R2B where both are up to 1600 ccm but R1 is stock car while R2 is reasonably more advanced one.

I hate to say it (again), but you are correct. All homologated R2s so far has been R2Bs.

VW has a 1390 engine. Have they talked to FIA?....

[skarderud]

Witch car are you thinking of, lundefaret? Mini 1,2t? Isnt it a 1.6?:)
Or something else?

[pantealex]

new mini is 1198ccm 3cylinder, 1499ccm 3cylinder and 1998ccm 4cylinder

[Lundefaret]

Witch car are you thinking of, lundefaret? Mini 1,2t? Isnt it a 1.6?:)
Or something else?

Hmmm...;)

[pantealex]

All homologated R2s so far has been R2Bs.

M-Sport has made new nose Fiesta "R2" with 1.0T (and 5door version of R2 also) but maybe it´s not homologated

[ChristianArp]

That's somewhat strange. Up to 1333 ccm turbocharged in R3? Current R3T cars have up to 1620 ccm.

Will the upcoming rule change then nullify the specific document of regulations, that are already in place for R3T and R3D? Remember, these two classes are currently not included in the R-class document that has been linked to.
If not, then you should still be able to homologate a 1620ccm R3T-car. Seems weird to have two documents with different limitations for the same principle of car (eg. 2wd, turbo, R3-level tuning) though.

If these changes are implemented, and the specific document about R3T and R3D is removed, would that not mean that the currently homologated R3T cars are in a situation, where they do not comply with FIA regulations, yet comply with their still-valid homologation documents?

Whichever of the above thoughts, it just makes very little sense to me. :)