WRC Fans say 'NO' to Shoot-Out

[Doon]

After reading Motorsport News today I felt that the fans of the WRC need a voice over this silly shoot-out idea.

Please read, share and contribute. You guys are the most knowledgeable WRC in the world.

Cheers

https://www.facebook.com/groups/606415286134311/

[Jack4688`]

Joined.

Is this your group? What exactly are the plans to let the idiots in charge know that the idea is a load of garbage?

[nafpaktos]

Yes

[Doon]

Joined.

Is this your group? What exactly are the plans to let the idiots in charge know that the idea is a load of garbage?

We create a large group of fans, tell the powers that may be that we don't want the shoot-out, that we support the drivers. If the group snowballs and it becomes large enough, they will hear about it. If they don't hear about it, I will write to the press guys like Colin Clarke, Becs Williams and Jerry Williams to show them the support we are giving. Hopefully they join the group and see for themselves. It's all a trial, but someone has to have a go!

[Doon]

What else can we do? Because the fans don't seem to have a voice in the WRC. We all need to be that voice.

[Antony Warmbold]

joined

[janvanvurpa]

In the end the only thing that will count is if the visible drivers refuse to go along with this farce...When they have the courage and solidarity to say "No!" to madness, then there will be pressure.

[Doon]

In the end the only thing that will count is if the visible drivers refuse to go along with this farce...When they have the courage and solidarity to say "No!" to madness, then there will be pressure.

They already have!! The drivers had a meeting with Michelle Mouton and unanimously voted 'NO'. However it seems that the teams are going against their drivers. This madness will only stop once the fans say they will not buy into it.

[Rallyper]

Ogier who didn´t want the big change in starting order and cried about that, could now show his skills in convincing Capito the wrong in such proposal.

[Doon]

No, because the WMSC have passed on the 'points leader, sweeping for day 1 & 2' rule. Ogier must be pretty annoyed now. I feel for him, why restrict the best driver from being his best?

[bassist]

Applied to join- This idea is a total and utter farce!!!

[N.O.T]

instead of creating groups, gather likes and other girly stuff borrowed from the lesser men and girls of F1 what you should do is cancel your WRC+ subscriptions if you really want to make an impact and be heard of because those guys only understand money and go by the moto " if you do not make money you do not make sense"

So instead of adding likes (It didn't work with the cure for cancer by the way... saddly) send an email to wrc saying you cancel your subscriptions, stop buying merchandise ecst ects and the reason why you do so...

Myself would like to see the idea being implemented then form an opinion.

[janvanvurpa]

They already have!! The drivers had a meeting with Michelle Mouton and unanimously voted 'NO'. However it seems that the teams are going against their drivers. This madness will only stop once the fans say they will not buy into it.

Then the drivers ---and that means all of them, thelit, the gentleman drivers, local heros, tail end runners all have to simple refuse to enter, or refuse to drive.
Might hurt but they have to take a stand..

Hell why not just do these mow short sprinty 300 km "gruelling" SS, then flip a coin?
Or draw straws or matchsticks?
Or play "Charades"--you get 20 questions to guess the secret answer...
Think of the drama! The opportunity to edit some tension and uncertainty...

Wait I have it (well kind of, but slightly different)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ9myHhpS9s

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/vZ9myHhpS9s?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/vZ9myHhpS9s?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
(http://youtu.be/vZ9myHhpS9s)

[rallyfiend]

Interesting to see that even one of its most vocal critics seems to have come around slightly...

From Autosport:

Has the WRC missed its opportunity?

The World Rally Championship's revamp plans - including a single-stage shootout - were recently rejected by the FIA, but perhaps it was an opportunity lost, as DAVID EVANS pondered down under


Eight seconds. Not much, but enough. In all honesty, more than enough. With less than six miles to run, Sebastien Ogier was safe. Risk and reward once again stepped in to make an irrelevance of the powerstage on last week's Rally Australia.

Sitting in the press office watching Ogier go off the line and onto the final stage in Wedding Bells, I pondered the ramifications of the last few days. Flanked by some of the championship's most conservative and cynical hacks, I couldn't resist a moment of devilment.

"This one's in the bag then..." I ventured as the number one Polo was powered into the stage. "Jari-Matti's got no hope of doing eight seconds in here."

I got a bite.

"Might as well turn the box off," was the offering from my left. "Been the same all day."

I nodded firmly in agreement and gave it a moment.

"Shame," I said, "it's not as close as Finland, or even better - imagine if that gap was less than a second. I'd stop typing for that..."

Hook.

"We'd all stop typing for that. Now that would be worth watching."

Line.

Had the World Motor Sport Council accepted WRC Promoter's proposal for next season, I ventured, Ogier would have dropped the clutch with eight tenths of a second in hand over Latvala. And he'd have lost. By four tenths of a second.

My colleague looked exasperated. "But it's not real!"

"Granted. But would you watch it?"

"Well... yes. Of course I'd watch it.

Sinker.

Caption
The FIA rejected the WRC's requested revamp, which included a single-stage shootout to decide victory © McKlein
When the World Motor Sport Council decisions came out of Beijing last Friday, I'll be honest, I was delighted. A victory, I thought to myself, for common sense. I make no bones about being the most traditional of traditionalists, but the next couple of days down under went some way to change my mind. As you can imagine, the on-stage action took a very definite back seat as the service park went into political overdrive.

The latest chapter of the great debate had begun.

Just like Scotland this week, the WRC had its own very defined two-sided argument. All we were missing was the badges, loudhailers and a version of Nicola Sturgeon to shout at.

Saying yes to change were the majority of championship stakeholders - the events, the teams and WRC Promoter, although I understand the vote in favour wasn't unanimous.

The vote for no was unanimous and came from the crews. When asked, not one driver or co-driver wanted a second to be slashed in value to mean a tenth of a second (the latest thinking is that the dividing factor is 10 - a driver winning a stage by 10 seconds would actually be credited with a one-second lead).

To a man, the crews trotted out the DNA argument. I know this one well. Their words were my words. Until I thought even deeper into it. And had some breakfast.

Jet lag was doing its thing last Friday morning, which is how I found myself waiting impatiently for the restaurant around the corner from AUTOSPORT's apartment to open and cook me some scrambled eggs at six in the morning.

Twenty minutes or so in and a fellow time zone-challenged European joined me; WRC Promoter chief Oliver Ciesla sat down for a coffee. And stayed for a sandwich and two coffees. We talked for a long time through the evolution of this plan and, much as I advocated the devil, he came right back at me.

Caption
Would rallying lose its essence if the proposals became reality? © McKlein
The sport, he reckoned, would stay the same. It's still man and machine racing the clock from point A to point B. Nothing's changed. The roads are still the toughest on planet Earth and the fastest will still be the fastest. Somebody's just had a bit of a tinker with the stopwatch.

Ciesla takes exception to the continued use of the word "shootout". He's not keen on connotations of luck or sudden death, but the fact that only a driver in the top four positions can win the rally supports the shootout principle. And the idea of grouping the drivers into fours (1-4; 5-8; 9-12, etc) is my only issue with this plan.

The promoter wants drivers to push as hard as possible throughout the rally to make it into the top four, but surely with a tenth of a second worth a hundredth; a second worth a tenth and 10 seconds worth just one, the crews will be driving harder and faster anyway. Does the top four thing not just complicate matters?

Maybe it's our own version of devo-max that we're after.

If WRC Promoter convinces the FIA's political hierarchy of the virtues of its proposal then it's hard to imagine a world championship round ending on anything other than an absolute cliffhanger - the kind where a missed gear (if sequential gearboxes allowed for such a thing) would mean the difference between first and second.

What's not to like about that? WRC Promoter gets to show the new world what a cool and hyper-competitive sport the WRC. He sells his telly, so the wolf is kept from the promoter's door, and the standing of the WRC is inevitably raised. Win, win, I think we call that.

The drivers and co-drivers won't agree with any of that because we are changing the sport fundamentally. Wrong. The original plan was. This one's just tightening things up a little. And anyway, a winner will still be a winner, be it by a second or a tenth of a second. What will disappear is the opportunity to plan an attack. Ogier admitted he was a little cautious on the first run through Wedding Bells on Sunday. His lead was 10 seconds and he gave three away. Caution would surely have been cast windward had he risked three tenths of a single-second advantage.

Caption
The WRC Promoter is striving to make the sport more appealing to a wider audience © McKlein
Victory will mean the cars being on their doorhandles from the start of the first stage to the end of the last. Yes, yes, I know the drivers do that already. But as our world champion pointed out, they don't.

The DNA argument simply doesn't stand up, I'm afraid. How can it? I'm not saying this doesn't falsely close the field up, it does. And that bit's not real. But it still offers the richest reward to the quick and the brave. And, like I said, the consistently brave. And always perfect.

But isn't that the level demanded of a world champion? Taking a title must be about striving for perfection? Not perfection until the comfort zone, then the measured approach.

In defence of the WRC Promoter, I have been consistely told: "We need to do something..."

There's no doubt we need to do something. The WRC's not where it should be. But what we have to do is promote, promote and promote.

I was fortunate enough to drive through some of the stages in Australia, then go back and watch as our heroes passed down the same stretch of road. It takes your breath away to see these boys on the limit between the trees. And some of the trees in that part of New South Wales have clearly been there since the dawn of time. Those trees were not for moving. But still, the best in the world pulled sixth and sliced past them without inches to spare.

There's nothing wrong with the action. It's good and getting better. But what use is it if nobody knows? It's time to let the rest of the world in on our secret. And it's also time to give WRC Promoter a break. Ciesla might not have touched down on planet WRC knowing Hannu Mikkola's inside leg measurement or the merits of the viscous coupling, but he's working at it.

Caption
Australia served up a great event, despite bickering behind the scenes © McKlein
WRC Promoter, backed by Red Bull Media House and Sportsmen Media, has upscaled its investment radically for the next couple of years and it's time we got behind them. It wouldn't be so hard to back them if only a few more people had an idea of how they are trying to do the job of promoting the series with one arm tied behind their back courtesy of FIA constraint and control. The analogy of taking a 10-year lease on a shop, only to be told not only what you can sell but also at what price you can ask holds truer than most would imagine.

The most important thing now is that the bickering has to stop.

The atmosphere around Rally Australia was horrible, courtesy of a ceaseless stream of arguments. That started with a meeting between Michele Mouton and the crews on Thursday night. We're told this was at Jean Todt's behest, to gauge opinion before World Motor Sport Council the next day.

This made absolutely no sense for me. The drivers voted unanimously against change in a poll that had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of the situation. Beijing decisions were not put on hold merely to wait for the opinion of Mr Mads Ostberg. Understandably, that only served to wind up the already overlooked drivers even more. So they lost their tempers with Mouton before walking out, bound for bed and the start of a WRC round just hours later. In terms of good prep for a WRC round, this was simply insane.

The drivers and co-drivers should have a voice and that voice has to be listened to. The television product remains a real bone of contention with all the drivers and now's the time for them to get together and voice those concerns with the people that matter.

But, at the same time, they have to put their faith – as we all do – in those striving to raise rallying's profile above that of tiddlywinks. If they don't want to put their faith in those folk, then maybe the time has come for a career change. The WRC's older than any of them. And it will outlast all of them.

[AndyRAC]

David Evans is another one who doesn't get it, he has spent too long in the WRC bubble. Ex-WRC journalists have tweeted their anger at the idiocy of the 'shoot out', but the current ones want to give it a try.
More people are not going to suddenly tune in because of this. Stop trying to cater for the mythical casual fan. They don't exist. All they are doing is alienating the current fans.

[Doon]

David Evans may not have turned off the TV and watched a final stage shootout, but who is there to tune in? No body, as Andy says there are no casual fans. I say the best way forward is for the final stage to be a monster 50km+ stage. More distance, more opportunity for action!

[Jack4688`]

Am I the only one who can't stand David Evans? In most of his little features I can't understand the point he's trying to make with his crayon-written piece. He's there at the rallies and should have some influence as the rally editor for Autosport, the most prestigious motor sport magazine out there.

If I was in his position I'd be asking Ciesla/Capito very direct questions like:
-Why do you believe there is a need to change the fundamental way rallies work, and have worked for decades, in the WRC?
-Why do you have such resistance to the opinion from almost everybody that this is an awful idea?
-Have you recently suffered a fall and taken a blow to the head?

[Lousada]

If you know beforehand that every Formula 1 race will be decided on the very last lap would you ever watch another complete F1 race again, or just the final lap (or not at all)?

If you know beforehand that every football game would be decided in injury time, would you still bother watching the previous 90 minutes, or just the final moments (or not at all)?

If you know beforehand that every rally will be decided on the very last stage, would you still follow the other 20 stages or would you just follow the final stage?

Yet the shootout proposes just that, delaying the decision until the very last stage on every single rally.

[janvanvurpa]

If you know beforehand that every Formula 1 race will be decided on the very last lap would you ever watch another complete F1 race again, or just the final lap (or not at all)?

If you know beforehand that every football game would be decided in injury time, would you still bother watching the previous 90 minutes, or just the final moments (or not at all)?

If you know beforehand that every rally will be decided on the very last stage, would you still follow the other 20 stages or would you just follow the final stage?

Yet the shootout proposes just that, delaying the decision until the very last stage on every single rally.

Well seems everything in life or history goes in arcs in a direction..
back in the 60s in rally AND my old sport sure the winner was "the man" THAT DAY, but the WHOLE event, the "scene" was also a big thing...
Indeed having grown up in the USA till I emigrated to Sweden at 17, I saw a BIG cultural difference..
'Merikans, and the more knuckle-headed, brain dead consumers they were, the more they would go ape-shit about the WINNAR!!!! Woooot woooT Numbah ONE!!!!"....

In the civilised parts of the world, I was shocked when people would come up after say first lap crash and start 30th or 33rd and get going and end up say 9th or 10th...and p[people would say "Good ride, well done"

It took quite a while to come to terms.. I knew I had done good maybe actually doing laps a little better than 1-2-3 place) but NOBODY in 'merikuh would ever say ANYTHING about a 5th place finish much less a 10th..

Now, unfortunately, the American disease of EVERYTHING IS A COMMODITY and ALL COMMODITIES CAN BE Promoted into the brainless, over-produced 30 minute program for a stunt that takes 3 seconds type mentality and it has infected the lesser minds who are typically in "promotion" and the WINNER is EVERYTHING malaise is dominant---in the media and ad departments..

This utterly stupid final stage shootout this is part of this contagious brain disease and suggests that the only thing that counts is the ONE GUY who won (well that is a easier story for 4th rate "media types" to write a story or shout at the cameras rather that something looking at
the whole event as an event with dozens of stories"...

See? More contempt from the scum with tons of money whose main interest in life is making more money..
"The fans are too stupid to understand SS results, class results, leg results and.......so we re-vamp everything to make it simple."

Idiots.

[stefanvv]

If you know beforehand that every Formula 1 race will be decided on the very last lap would you ever watch another complete F1 race again, or just the final lap (or not at all)?
I don't watch f1. Don't care what lap it'll be decided.


If you know beforehand that every football game would be decided in injury time, would you still bother watching the previous 90 minutes, or just the final moments (or not at all)?
I watch football sometimes, I enjoy good teams playing, don't really care who is going to win in injury time (if any).


If you know beforehand that every rally will be decided on the very last stage, would you still follow the other 20 stages or would you just follow the final stage?
Little similar to football. I enjoy good Rally with some nice drivings on the limit. Don't really care who is going to win at the end.

But that's just me. As janvanvurpa said average joe needs heroes. May be shoot-out will bring him one, may be not.

[Franky]

"Shoot-out heroes" aren't heroes, but just made stars. People become heroes over a time and through their actions. I'm more that sure that rally fans vividly remember Colin McRae and his never give up mentality (e.g. the road side repairs with rocks), Marcus Grönholm and his stage comments (and the argument with a police offer at Rally GB), Petter and Henning Solberg for the charisma, Seb Loeb and his near perfect drives. All of them can be considered heroes, all of them have a character that stands out.

In my opinion the current time is awful for characters because nearly everything is shaped into the same boring PR mold. So in response they produce PR heroes.

Stefanvv, I think you completely misunderstood the point Lousada making. With shoot-out everything that happens before it becomes 99% pointless and would attract no attention from media and also the followers would tune in less.

[Jack4688`]

F1 is a bad analogy to use here considering that they're going back to the 'change-things-for-the-hell-of-it-without-doing-any-meaningful-research-to-find-out-if-it-will-actually-work' method, but presently we have F1 action way more interesting than it was back in Schumacher's era of dominance.

In the early 2000s we had foregone conclusions in the title races in F1 and WRC. F1 has come out of that (and we had a similar period with Vettel's dominance) without, on the whole, making silly knee-jerk regulation changes, whether sporting or technical. What the promoter doesn't understand is that alllllllll sports face periods of dominance from one competitor and you just have to put up with it for a while.

It's not even that bad in WRC right now with Jari-Matti Latvala showing better form than last year. OK it's not going to be like the end to the 2001 season, but times like that are soooooo much more enjoyable because they don't happen every year and at EVERY rally.

Ignoring the fact that engineering a result decided only on the last stage is too fake and removes the magic from the event for a second, it would just be so boring to see every event end the same way. They're basically trying to make EVERY rally end with the same story of a close finish. Why the hell is homogeny supposed to cure what's wrong with the WRC?

[AndyRAC]

Homogeny is what has made the current WRC what it is; 10-13 identikit events, very little variety, very few night stages, short events, etc Hell, look at the route for next years Monte; Turini run on Sunday morning... The IRC versions were far more interesting.

Using F1 as an example is poor, as F1 is a sprint series; if anything, you should use the WEC; 6/24 Hour races. Has anybody decided they need spicing up? No...and the WRC gets bigger TV figures than the WEC. What figures are the WRC bosses expecting? Having a 'shoot out' isn't going to change that - and they are deluded if they think that.

How about having events that further than they do now? Look at RallyGB; takes place in North Wales.....not even the whole of Wales. Sort that out.

I've said it before, the WRC needs promoting properly; selling TV rights is not promoting! Just one example; look at the Redbull Motorsport twitter feed - poor.

[Jack4688`]

I only used F1 as an example of another sport that has suffered spells of dominance, though to be honest is that what the group of mental patients and toddlers who 'promote' the WRC these days are even worried about? They say change is needed but I'm not even sure why.

You are dead right about the promotion, that is what is holding it back -there are other problems but poor promotion is making things worse and crackpot ideas are just going to make it worse still

[Mintexmemory]

VW are Capito's employers and therefore can direct him to behave in a certain way. If rally fans use the 'contact us' facility on the VW Motorsport Web page to say how much they disagree with him and what a negative impression this is creating of the whole VAG, then that may convince them to put a veto on JC's idea. I have already done so, come on swamp them.

[Jack4688`]

Sent a message of my own, not sure how much good it will do though. Also sent one to WRC - I guarantee that will have no effect!

[Toyoda]

Think this was said before but the true way to make it down to the wire is to have a monster 40+km stage at the end like the Whangacoast stage in rally NZ.
This way even if there is a 10 sec gap it can still be made up by good driving!

Its rally, its mean, its nasty, its a bit dirty, and has a sting in its tail!

[journeyman racer]

What figures are the WRC bosses expecting? Having a 'shoot out' isn't going to change that - and they are deluded if they think that.
That's actually a fair question that needs to be answered for future reference.


I've said it before, the WRC needs promoting properly; selling TV rights is not promoting!

What is proper promotion?

[A FONDO]

What is proper promotion?

The complete opposite to what is being done at the moment. When the sport is losing its fans, the last thing you need is limit the multimedia (which is at scarce anywany) to a paid site.

[Antony Warmbold]

sent one as well to VW

[Jack4688`]

This was my response, surprised to get one the next day:

Dear Jack,

Thanks for your feedback, the opinion of the WRC fans is very
important for us – and the further development of the sport.

Please understand that we currently can not disclose any details,
but we will communicate changes (and insights) in the WRC as soon as possible.

Thanks again for writing & best wishes,

Hendrik Feil
Manager Digital Media


Hmmmm not much really! But at least my message was acknowledged. I recommend sending a message - just bombard the WRC with bad feedback on this shoot-out plan. As well as this facebook petition, juts show the WRC promotors how much we take excception to it!

[rallyfun]

I'm fed up with those arrogant clueless people, let show them middle finger, they can take their toys and go no one's gonna cry. They still don't understand the sport and don't know what and where is the problem so they are absolutely useless and can cause more damage than good to WRC. Capito does everything to make VW most hated team in WRC.