Was ending the IRC a mistake ?

[Fran2013]

It is me or the"new" ERC is becoming quite boring ? Was taking over the ERC a mistake made by Eurosport ?

I now find WRC or the F1 much better...

In more detail here are my issues:

Calendar:

-Every single year now you see races being dropped from the calendar only a few weeks before the actual event. No time for substitutes.
-Why are they now trying to get ex-WRC rallies ? Why not trying new unique rallies that would make the calendar much more interesting ?

Teams and drivers:

-Where are they ? With new cars i was expecting much more regular teams and drivers. Every race now seems like a local race, where the winner seems to be someone who doesn´t really care about the ERC. Azores (B.Sousa) Ypres (Loix) Estonia (Tanak) and know almost certain Barum (Pech).

Now, to be the winner of the ERC, you only leed to won 1 rally and finish second or third in one or 2 events and it is done. Quite boring!!

Media:

What is happening with Eurosport ? Almost no Live TV ? 20 Minutes recaps ?

I am from the Azores and i was glad that was Live TV in the Azores rally but i was expecting much more. Those recaps were boring like hell.

[RS]

I see "new" ERC as basically IRC rather than IRC having ended.

In other words the same thing would have happened if it was still called IRC, after FIA killed the S2000 cars.

I expect next year to be better with a smaller calendar and the Fabia R5 coming on song. I guess Skoda will run Kopecky, Lappi and Wiegand next year and Peugeot will stick with the same lineup.

If Peugeot improve their car it could be a good year.

[Fran2013]

I see "new" ERC as basically IRC rather than IRC having ended.

In other words the same thing would have happened if it was still called IRC, after FIA killed the S2000 cars.

I expect next year to be better with a smaller calendar and the Fabia R5 coming on song. I guess Skoda will run Kopecky, Lappi and Wiegand next year and Peugeot will stick with the same lineup.

If Peugeot improve their car it could be a good year.


Last year the same thing was said about 2014 (apart the Fabia R5)

I was looking at some entry lists of IRC 2011 and the quality was so much better than today. And remember that Europe was in crisis and there was also the ERC

Bouffier, Haninnen, Wilks, Loix, Neuville, Kopecky, Mikkelsen, Basso, Sandell, Gardemeister and some more

Now it almost only gentlemen drivers and juniors.

No top French, British, Italian or Spanish driver

[WUff1]

I think economy situation is the reason, with less and less European top drivers being able to compete regularly in ERC, which probably would have liked to (Bouffier, Loix, Basso and others). So besides the works teams it´s just a small handful of drivers like Tarabus, Kajto, Consani etc., which are not absolutely top, who can afford ERC for some time. Others can afford just some few rallies, like Magalhaes.

So local drivers get more chances, especially when the two works teams are not competing or their drivers have to retire.

This year I even find WRC2 more interesting than ERC, whereas last year WRC2 was some kind of boring.

[Jarek Z]

It is me or the"new" ERC is becoming quite boring ? Was taking over the ERC a mistake made by Eurosport ?

(...)

Teams and drivers:

-Where are they ? With new cars i was expecting much more regular teams and drivers.


I'm sorry, but what did you expect? I told you guys on this very forum before the season started, that there will be no drivers who will compete in all rounds of ERC, because nobody can afford competing in as many as 12 rounds! Also adding all those insane island rallies to the calendar makes it even more expensive. And nobody wanted to agree with me! I still don't understand it. It was obvious that it would end like this.
If you like it or not, most drivers in ERC were, are and will be privateers. Therefore this championship needs to be made friendly for privateers. Cut the calendar and cut the island rallies. Heal the championship.

So in my opinion - taking over the ERC was not a mistake made by Eurosport. But running it in an insane way is.

[Fran2013]

I'm sorry, but what did you expect? I told you guys on this very forum before the season started, that there will be no drivers who will compete in all rounds of ERC, because nobody can afford competing in as many as 12 rounds! Also adding all those insane island rallies to the calendar makes it even more expensive. And nobody wanted to agree with me! I still don't understand it. It was obvious that it would end like this.
If you like it or not, most drivers in ERC were, are and will be privateers. Therefore this championship needs to be made friendly for privateers. Cut the calendar and cut the island rallies. Heal the championship.

So in my opinion - taking over the ERC was not a mistake made by Eurosport. But running it in an insane way is.

Do you really think the problem is the island rallies ?

If there was something good about the IRC/ERC were some of the Island Events like the Azores or Madeira.

If you think that the problem is solved cutting this Island rallies and putting Greece, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania then you are very wrong.

ERC is now becoming a 2º league of WRC. Not much different from the WRC2

How much does it cost to do the WRC/WRC2 ?

Why someone would prefer going to ERC instead o WRC2 ?

[Jarek Z]

Do you really think the problem is the island rallies ?


No, it's not the main problem. The biggest problem is the insane number of events in the calendar.

[RS]

Every race now seems like a local race, where the winner seems to be someone who doesn´t really care about the ERC. Azores (B.Sousa) Ypres (Loix) Estonia (Tanak) and know almost certain Barum (Pech).

Actually, this is kind of a strength of ERC that the championship contenders have to beat fast guys like Loix and Pech on home territory (less so Sousa who I think mainly won Azores because the Peugeots broke down and Skoda didn't turn up)


No, it's not the main problem. The biggest problem is the insane number of events in the calendar.

Which is being addressed for next year.

[Filip]

Actually, this is kind of a strength of ERC that the championship contenders have to beat fast guys like Loix and Pech on home territory (less so Sousa who I think mainly won Azores because the Peugeots broke down and Skoda didn't turn up)

Exactly. It is always good to see privateers fighting with factory drivers (and eventually beating them) like Lukyanuk in Estonia or Pech on Barum.

[Jarek Z]

Actually, this is kind of a strength of ERC that the championship contenders have to beat fast guys like Loix and Pech on home territory

Exactly! That is what sport is all about! And what is missing in WRC.

[Fran2013]

Actually, this is kind of a strength of ERC that the championship contenders have to beat fast guys like Loix and Pech on home territory (less so Sousa who I think mainly won Azores because the Peugeots broke down and Skoda didn't turn up)

Which is being addressed for next year.


Sorry but i will disagree with that.

I doesn´t make any sense. Who is Pech ? An unknown from outside Czech Republic...

Do you really think that Kubica or Sousa are promoting ERC ?

If you have someone winning a rally of the ERC and then saying that the WRC2 is better, then i rest my case

Kubica is sixth in the champ, for god sake....

[Jarek Z]

Sorry but i will disagree with that.

I doesn´t make any sense. Who is Pech ? An unknown from outside Czech Republic...

Do you really think that Kubica or Sousa are promoting ERC ?


Your memory is very short. Have you already forgotten what happened on Janner Rally? Did you forget that the biggest thrill of this rally was the fight for seconds between Pech and Kubica? Did you forget how exciting it was for hundreds of people to see Kubica beating Pech on the last meters of the last stage in the night? If you did forget all that, then go find a thread about Janner Rally on this very forum and read the comments. Or go ask Marcus Gronholm who made live commentary on this event. Or tell me why this onboard was watched by over 100 000 users - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ePy2zfTVwc . Or whay did anybody bother to make this comaprison - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xIa3aP0zdM

If that wasn't exciting and a good promotion of the ERC then I don't get your way of thinking. For me it was the most exciting rally I have seen this year.

[RS]

Sorry but i will disagree with that.

I doesn´t make any sense. Who is Pech ? An unknown from outside Czech Republic...

Do you really think that Kubica or Sousa are promoting ERC ?

If you have someone winning a rally of the ERC and then saying that the WRC2 is better, then i rest my case

Kubica is sixth in the champ, for god sake....

I don't understand what you are saying?

E(I)RC has a proven history of being much stronger than any WRC support category. I would agree there are some good drivers in WRC2 this year, but look at the championship standings...

Whether Pech is known or not is irelevant, he is fast at home and therefore to beat him you have to be a good driver. That is what ERC is about and IRC was, giving younger drivers a proper schooling.

[Sulland]

ERC is in its infantcy, but organizers need to take the economic climate into account.

For 2015 it should be a 7 or 8 round series, and build up to 10 when european economy has picked up speed!

But Eurosport need more live coverage as the Monte Carlo coverage in 2013 - that was superb!
They need to make ERC+ type streaming service, where subscribours can choose different channels.

To win the fight with WRC2 they need to make a much better Package, so team bosses from manufacturer team recruit from ERC as it was with IRC!!

[stefanvv]

Is it possible the reason for the poor coverage to be the almost no manufacturer championship. People are used to Peugeot to last couple of stages, Skoda are not doing full campaign, so it is kind of no championship to follow situation and lower interest in ERC. Local privateers are nice flavour here and there, but I don't thing this is what ES expected from this championship. For other privateers doing full championship it is very hard indeed. The number of events is too big I must admit, some are distant like Azores and take quite some time for travelling, so it is burden for the teams to go there.

[Fran2013]

I don't understand what you are saying?

E(I)RC has a proven history of being much stronger than any WRC support category. I would agree there are some good drivers in WRC2 this year, but look at the championship standings...

Whether Pech is known or not is irelevant, he is fast at home and therefore to beat him you have to be a good driver. That is what ERC is about and IRC was, giving younger drivers a proper schooling.


Simple, how can you promote a Championship when the majority of the drivers aren´t related to the ERC...

Which are the 2014 ERC "drivers" ?

Look at Neuville, Mikkelsen and Hanninen....

All of them are considered "IRC/ERC" drivers. It is a question of brand. Kubica, Sousa, Loix or Pech don

Why do you think that some rallies are pulling out ? Not worth it....

As an Azorean i even think the Azores Goverment should consider stopping giving the 1 million Euros to the rally.

Low profile drivers, not many media member, bad promotion, etc...

I can guarantee you ( and yes i live in the Azores) that the IRC was much more exciting here. Now, many people don´t support the rally.

When you know that foreign tourist dropped almost 10% after the rally, then you need to start asking: Is it worth it ?

[Fran2013]

Is it possible the reason for the poor coverage to be the almost no manufacturer championship. People are used to Peugeot to last couple of stages, Skoda are not doing full campaign, so it is kind of no championship to follow situation and lower interest in ERC. Local privateers are nice flavour here and there, but I don't thing this is what ES expected from this championship. For other privateers doing full championship it is very hard indeed. The number of events is too big I must admit, some are distant like Azores and take quite some time for travelling, so it is burden for the teams to go there.

Everything in the Azores Rally is almost free. Transportation, etc...

The problem is the time that is needed to travel.

[Wim_Impreza]

I'm sorry, but what did you expect? I told you guys on this very forum before the season started, that there will be no drivers who will compete in all rounds of ERC, because nobody can afford competing in as many as 12 rounds! Also adding all those insane island rallies to the calendar makes it even more expensive. And nobody wanted to agree with me! I still don't understand it. It was obvious that it would end like this.
If you like it or not, most drivers in ERC were, are and will be privateers. Therefore this championship needs to be made friendly for privateers. Cut the calendar and cut the island rallies. Heal the championship.

So in my opinion - taking over the ERC was not a mistake made by Eurosport. But running it in an insane way is.

That is completely right what you are saying mate.

There are way too much island events and the economic situation is in most countries now even worse than in 2011. One of the other reasons is, what you also said and what we both don't find OK, that in the ERC there is another rally with usually not FIA-homologated cars on the same stages in most ERC events, which was the reason why whe didn't saw good local drivers in the Acropolis Rally and the Circuit of Ireland.

In my opinion the ERC is a good championship. I am very interested in it due to the variation of the events and the different cars. In the WRC, half of the field is driving Ford cars and the first asphalt rally is only in August, which means that there are way too much gravel events in the first half of the season. Very important for me is that a driver can't be classified in the final classification of a rally in the ERC, while in the WRC it is always a farce that drivers take points with Rally 2 and are than also classified in the final classification.

[stefanvv]

Everything in the Azores Rally is almost free. Transportation, etc...

The problem is the time that is needed to travel.

Yes, this is very good with the fees, but I meant the time that for a team it takes almost a month to go there and return, which is dependent with the weather also. Don't get me wrong, I like Azores Rally and the scenery, it is one of my favorites in the calendar, but if it is decisive for some teams, therefore make the championship more poor, then rather take some else in the continent.

[AndyRAC]

The ERC could be a good '2nd tier' series. They need to get the mix between surfaces right. Also, the promotion needs working at, especially the Live stages.
And while the way they finance the series is understandable - the best events are not in the ERC.

Hopefully, Peugeot will get the 208 R5 to be reliable, the Skoda Fabia R5 will be quick, and well have plenty of R5 Fiestas taking part. I'll reserve judgement on the ERC in another 2 years.

[Jarek Z]

That is completely right what you are saying mate.

Thank you Wim! I'm very happy that other people are slowly starting to share my (or our?) point of view.

[RS]

The ERC could be a good '2nd tier' series. They need to get the mix between surfaces right. Also, the promotion needs working at, especially the Live stages.
And while the way they finance the series is understandable - the best events are not in the ERC.


It's already a good second tier series (still the best IMO), but it could be a great one.

Mix of surfaces this year is good, 5ish of 11 are on loose surfaces.

When they do live stages, they do them quite well. We just need more of them (I wonder if this is why they are pushing Barum for more money?)

I disagree with your criticsm of the calendar for this year. Ypres, Barum, Corsica, COI are all legends, and the rest of them are pretty nice events.

[stefanvv]

Hopefully, Peugeot will get the 208 R5 to be reliable, the Skoda Fabia R5 will be quick, and well have plenty of R5 Fiestas taking part. I'll reserve judgement on the ERC in another 2 years.

Lets hope for the best indeed. Wait and see after some time when factory teams are available, and lets hope Peugeot sort the car out, not much point for their expenses right now, 'cause it seems FabiaR5 will be quite some car.

[Wim_Impreza]

Thank you Wim! I'm very happy that other people are slowly starting to share my (or our?) point of view.

You may say our point of view. :)

[Eli]

You may say our point of view. :)
+1

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The ERC has been generally ok in my opinion, I like the mix of rallies and especially that there are many more tarmac events than the WRC.

The main problems this year have been:
1. the failure of the Peugeot team to provide a reliable car, so many events have 'fizzled out' as the top competitors have gone home early due to car problems.
2. the Fabia R5 should have been ready for 2014 and all the top drivers should be using R5 cars by now (not still S2000, RRC etc)
3. lack of live TV by Eurosport on many events - they should be showing a least one live stage per day, on every rally by now

[mousti]

Fabia R5 been ready in 2015 is I think more because that the new Fabia got delayed a lot this year and not because of the development of Fabia R5

[stefanvv]

I'm afraid Fabia R5 ready in 2014 would only make the things worse for the competition. Peugeot just wouldn't have a chance with its problems. I don't know should I be happy or sad for the next year ERC when the game is on.

[HaCo]

I'm afraid Fabia R5 ready in 2014 would only make the things worse for the competition. Peugeot just wouldn't have a chance with its problems. I don't know should I be happy or sad for the next year ERC when the game is on.
I'm quite sure Peugeot will solve the issues. ERC needs some time to develop. Let's hope Opel will join, they are doing quite well with the Adam R2.

[Jarek Z]

I'm quite sure Peugeot will solve the issues.

Are you sure? ;)
As far as I know two more Peugeots broke down just last weekend. One for Pieter Tsjoen in Belgium and one in Austrian championship. Not a positive sign...

[kbalaazs]

Are you sure? ;)
As far as I know two more Peugeots broke down just last weekend. One for Pieter Tsjoen in Belgium and one in Austrian championship. Not a positive sign...

Plus one 208 broke down at Rally Kosice, 4th round of the Hungarian Rallye Championship with Turan F. :-(

[Mirek]

Fabia R5 been ready in 2015 is I think more because that the new Fabia got delayed a lot this year and not because of the development of Fabia R5

I think that the main reason is that they have difficulties to get in the part price limit...


I'm quite sure Peugeot will solve the issues. ERC needs some time to develop. Let's hope Opel will join, they are doing quite well with the Adam R2.


Are you sure? ;)
As far as I know two more Peugeots broke down just last weekend. One for Pieter Tsjoen in Belgium and one in Austrian championship. Not a positive sign...

I'm afraid they could quit completely. I hope I'm wrong...

[Jarek Z]

I'm afraid they could quit completely. I hope I'm wrong...

Me too. The car is not reliable, but it has great potential and great drivers. That would be a shame if they quit.

[mousti]

I think that the main reason is that they have difficulties to get in the part price limit...

That's surprising.. First homologation date is 1 march probably? But they need to produce 25000 Fabia's until that date.

[Mirek]

That's surprising.. First homologation date is 1 march probably? But they need to produce 25000 Fabia's until that date.

That's no problem. The production started this week or maybe next. I don't know exactly but anyway I estimate that they shall have around 50 thousand cars produced by the end of year.

[RS]

I'm quite sure Peugeot will solve the issues.

I'm sure they will get better, but I do think a truly great car tends to be born well. Plus with the limited homologation jokers nowadays it is not so easy.

It's not a good sign when your car is seemingly slower and less reliable than one which is still 6 months from being homologated..

[Mirek]

If it's true what is circulating all around that the main issue is too small cooling channels in the stock 1.6 EP6CDTR block than it's about an all new homologation with different engine. Ford by the way uses 2-litre block and Škoda 1.8.

[EightGear]

You have to wonder though, why does Peugeot send Breen to Cyprus, knowing their chances of finishing aren't that great? For Breen to become champion he needs to win all 3 remaining rallys. I can't see him nor Peugeot do that, so there must be some confidence by Peugeot that it could be possible.

Or maybe Breen payed for it himself, I can imagine Peugeot would have liked to send Abbring there as well since he's faster than Breen this year.

[RS]

If it's true what is circulating all around that the main issue is too small cooling channels in the stock 1.6 EP6CDTR block than it's about an all new homologation with different engine.

Is an all new homologation even possible if it's based on the same road car?

[WUff1]

You have to wonder though, why does Peugeot send Breen to Cyprus, knowing their chances of finishing aren't that great? For Breen to become champion he needs to win all 3 remaining rallys. I can't see him nor Peugeot do that, so there must be some confidence by Peugeot that it could be possible.

Or maybe Breen payed for it himself, I can imagine Peugeot would have liked to send Abbring there as well since he's faster than Breen this year.

I think the latter.

[WRC1]

Are you sure? ;)
As far as I know two more Peugeots broke down just last weekend. One for Pieter Tsjoen in Belgium and one in Austrian championship. Not a positive sign...


...and one in Hungary....

[PLuto]

You have to wonder though, why does Peugeot send Breen to Cyprus, knowing their chances of finishing aren't that great? For Breen to become champion he needs to win all 3 remaining rallys. I can't see him nor Peugeot do that, so there must be some confidence by Peugeot that it could be possible.

Or maybe Breen payed for it himself, I can imagine Peugeot would have liked to send Abbring there as well since he's faster than Breen this year.

Maybe last chance to save the project?

[fegh]

If it's true what is circulating all around that the main issue is too small cooling channels in the stock 1.6 EP6CDTR block than it's about an all new homologation with different engine. Ford by the way uses 2-litre block and Škoda 1.8.

But why the DS3 R5 seems more reliable than the 208, I assume they are using the same block no ? May be Peugeot's approach is too much aggressive !!

[RS]

But why the DS3 R5 seems more reliable than the 208, I assume they are using the same block no ? May be Peugeot's approach is too much aggressive !!

I'm guessing it's just because there are less of them around to break down. They are pretty much the same car, although maybe the cooling is a bit different on the Citroen as it uses different bodywork?

[stefanvv]

I'm guessing it's just because there are less of them around to break down. They are pretty much the same car, although maybe the cooling is a bit different on the Citroen as it uses different bodywork?

I think Citroen has better/more airflow to the radiator

[dupanton]

Verschueren in Belgian has had tons of issues with his DS3 as well... Last weekend, the central diff or driveshaft broke leaving him with front wheel drive only. In Ypres he had loss of power all weekend long.
Tsjoen retired with engine problems, he suspects the same problem as in Ypres... Loss of power, strange noise so he put it off before the car bursted in to flames again...

[Mirek]

There is no central diff on the DS3 R5 ;)

[irish_tiger]

That's surprising.. First homologation date is 1 march probably? But they need to produce 25000 Fabia's until that date.


That's no problem. The production started this week or maybe next. I don't know exactly but anyway I estimate that they shall have around 50 thousand cars produced by the end of year.Does anybody know when the Fabia R5 will be available to customers ? or will it be a 'works car' for a while ? ....was the Fabia S2000 available straight away to customers when it was launched

[PLuto]

Does anybody know when the Fabia R5 will be available to customers ? or will it be a 'works car' for a while ? ....was the Fabia S2000 available straight away to customers when it was launched

During next year. It will be available to customers almost in same time when it will be homologated.

[Jarek Z]

E(I)RC has a proven history of being much stronger than any WRC support category. I would agree there are some good drivers in WRC2 this year, but look at the championship standings...


I have just had a look at the championship standings and... the leader is Karl Kruuda. In the ERC auto24 Rally Estonia 2014 he was only 6th and couldn't even win one single stage. Second is Lorenzo Bertelli and everybody knows how slow driver he is. Third is Ott Tanak, a very good driver of course. But fourth is Yuriy Protasov. I know Protasov very well. He was competing in Polish champiosnhip and then European Championship for 2-3 years and didn't even win one rally. So this is the level of WRC2. I don't think it is higher than ERC.

P.S. I'm not criticizing anything here, just making a comparison :)

[RS]

I have just had a look at the championship standings and... the leader is Karl Kruuda. In the ERC auto24 Rally Estonia 2014 he was only 6th and couldn't even win one single stage. Second is Lorenzo Bertelli and everybody knows how slow driver he is. Third is Ott Tanak, a very good driver of course. But fourth is Yuriy Protasov. I know Protasov very well. He was competing in Polish champiosnhip and then European Championship for 2-3 years and didn't even win one rally. So this is the level of WRC2. I don't think it is higher than ERC.

P.S. I'm not criticizing anything here, just making a comparison :)

Exactly. Whilst there are some very good drivers in WRC2 and some with some very good potential too, the WRC support championships have often favoured reliability over outright speed (a lot due to greater length of WRC rallies).

It's a well known saying that it's easier to teach a fast driver to be reliable than to teach a reliable driver to be fast, hence why E/IRC with it's shorter rallies and close competition have created:

- the driver who won the previous WRC event in Germany
- the driver who is third in the championship behind his team mates who have much more experience
- the driver who is now arguably "best of the rest" behind the VW boys

[Franky]

Exactly. Whilst there are some very good drivers in WRC2 and some with some very good potential too, the WRC support championships have often favoured reliability over outright speed (a lot due to greater length of WRC rallies).

It's a well known saying that it's easier to teach a fast driver to be reliable than to teach a reliable driver to be fast, hence why E/IRC with it's shorter rallies and close competition have created:

- the driver who won the previous WRC event in Germany
- the driver who is third in the championship behind his team mates who have much more experience
- the driver who is now arguably "best of the rest" behind the VW boys

Not sure if we can say that IRC created Meeke and Mikkelsen, guys who had been running in WRC before IRC.

Jarek, I might be wrong but I think Kruuda's Rally Estonia result was affected by the Peugeot's technical troubles and the crash in Poland.

[RS]

Not sure if we can say that IRC created Meeke and Mikkelsen, guys who had been running in WRC before IRC.

Jarek, I might be wrong but I think Kruuda's Rally Estonia result was affected by the Peugeot's technical troubles and the crash in Poland.

True, I should have maybe said 'developed' rather than 'created'

I'm sure the Peugeot problems had an influence on Kruuda, but he made quite a few IRC starts in the past too and was never particularly impressive.

[pantealex]

I have just had a look at the championship standings and... the leader is Karl Kruuda. In the ERC auto24 Rally Estonia 2014 he was only 6th and couldn't even win one single stage. Second is Lorenzo Bertelli and everybody knows how slow driver he is. Third is Ott Tanak, a very good driver of course. But fourth is Yuriy Protasov. I know Protasov very well. He was competing in Polish champiosnhip and then European Championship for 2-3 years and didn't even win one rally. So this is the level of WRC2. I don't think it is higher than ERC.

P.S. I'm not criticizing anything here, just making a comparison :)

Kruuda is not WRC2 points leader

1Bertelli 93p
2Protasov 90p
3Ketomaa 90p
4Al-Attiyah 85p
5Tänak 78p
6Kruuda 74p

[Jarek Z]

Kruuda is not WRC2 points leader

Thanks for correcting me. I was writing it before Australia finished. If Bertelli is the new leader and Protasov is second, that's even worse for the championship! ;)

[Franky]

Thanks for correcting me. I was writing it before Australia finished. If Bertelli is the new leader and Protasov is second, that's even worse for the championship! ;)

Guys, let's wait till the last event is over to judge how bad the season was.

[Mirek]

Out of curiosity... champions since IRC appeared...

2006
IRC Basso
ERC Basso
PWRC Al Attiyah
JWRC Sandell

2007
IRC García-Ojeda
ERC Jean-Joseph
PWRC Arai
JWRC Andersson

2008
IRC Vouilloz
ERC Rossetti
PWRC Aigner
JWRC Ogier

2009
IRC Meeke
ERC Basso
PWRC Araújo
JWRC Prokop

2010
IRC Hänninen
ERC Rossetti
SWRC Pons
PWRC Araújo
JWRC Burkart

2011
IRC Mikkelsen
ERC Rossetti
SWRC Hänninen
PWRC Paddon
Academy Breen

2012
IRC Mikkelsen
ERC Hänninen
SWRC Andersson
PWRC Guerra
Academy Evans

2013
ERC Kopecký
WRC2 Kubica
JWRC Tidemand

[pucky54]

Out of curiosity... champions since IRC appeared...

2006
IRC Basso
ERC Basso
PWRC Al Attiyah
JWRC Sandell

2007
IRC García-Ojeda
ERC Jean-Joseph
PWRC Arai
JWRC Andersson

2008
IRC Vouilloz
ERC Rossetti
PWRC Aigner
JWRC Ogier

2009
IRC Meeke
ERC Basso
PWRC Araújo
JWRC Prokop

2010
IRC Hänninen
ERC Rossetti
SWRC Pons
PWRC Araújo
JWRC Burkart

2011
IRC Mikkelsen
ERC Rossetti
SWRC Hänninen
PWRC Paddon
Academy Breen

2012
IRC Mikkelsen
ERC Hänninen
SWRC Andersson
PWRC Guerra
Academy Evans

2013
ERC Kopecký
WRC2 Kubica
JWRC Tidemand

SWRC in 2012 wasn't won by PG but by Breen ;)

[Mirek]

Danke für die Korrektur.

[PLuto]

Not sure if we can say that IRC created Meeke and Mikkelsen, guys who had been running in WRC before IRC.

I think we should easily say, that IRC restarted their career. Yes, they were doing some starts in WRC before, but without IRC nobody was interested about them...

[er88]

*Long post alert*

Thinking back, the IRC in 2011 was by far the most enjoyable championship ive followed since all the way back to the 2001 WRC title fight.

There was just something about the IRC that was special and more exciting than the WRC for me. There was number of reasons why i loved the championship;
- The TV coverage was superb, im sure everyone remembers all the live stages in Monte at the start of that year, watching Hanninen and Solberg getting caught out making a woefully wrong tyre choice while in first and second respectively, with Bouffier and Delecour taking advantage :-). The TV coverge was good throughout the year, including 3 or 4 more events with live stages - i know Scotland and Cyprus had live stages ( Everyone i hope still remembers Neuville on the Golden stage rally pushing like hell with the rear of his car hanging off the cliff).

- The interesting calendar with the historic events such as Monte, Corsica, Ypres, Barum and Sanremo mixed in with exciting new events to a major rally championship, such as Azores and Scotland (plus a few others, Ukraine etc) was also why enjoyed the championship.

- The exciting young drivers and diverse entry lists. Many of these drivers are now in the WRC but the battles were really immense in 2011, so many final stage battles with just a second or so between drivers at the end. I remember Mikklesen binning it in Hungary on the final stage chasing his first win, and Andreas also losing out on the final stage in Sanremo to Neuville by the smallest of margines. It was great for the sport. Was glad Andreas finally got his first win in Scotland.

- Probably the biggest reason i loved the IRC though - and one of the reasons the series became so big - was the S2000 cars. The cars were so enjoyable to watch. Standing in a dark, muddy Scottish forest watching and listening to those screaming cars flying past was some spectacle. Like the old days of rallying in a way. I know the cars werent as outright fast as WRC cars etc, but when the S2000s were at full pelt they were just more exciting to watch and the noise was great.

Anyway sorry for rambling ;-), just wanted to share my thoughts. I think the IRC was at its absolute peak between 2010-2012. It was fantastic to watch and follow the championship. I highly doubt the ERC will get back to that level but hopefully it improves from its current state (Im barely interested in at all just now). Hopefully Skodas arrival with the new R5 will help but i dont know....

[Mirek]

I think that it's quite obvious that the IRC was growing together with the popularity of S2000 cars (in fact the European popularity of them was started by early IRC seasons not vice-versa). It was also not accidental that it started to fade after new S2000 homologations were banned by FIA in 2011. Whether FIA simply failed to replace them with the new over-ambitious WRC/RRC or they killed them deliberately to slow down the IRC which was in that time getting dangerously close to the WRC or that was just a plain incompetence I don't know...

[Abarth]

Fia first killed car class, and then the series.....

[Fran2013]

ERC is now bullshit....

[RS]

ERC is now bullshit....

Nice well formed argument there...

I think your assessment is a bit harsh although I understand the sentiment.. This year isn"t looking good.

ERC does arguably have Poland's best rally driver and one of the most interesting newcomers in Lukyanuk on it's books though.

I don't really know what they can do. The promotional package is much better than WRC2 and up to now it and IRC has been a much more successful career ladder than recent WRC support categories.

It's key weakness seems to be that young drivers want to learn the WRC roads.

[Mirek]

The junior championship is great. In some ways ERC is better than IRC was - there is much more regular competitors and the junior category slowly becomes the most important part of the package which isn't that wrong in my opinion. The competition on the top level is worse than in the best IRC years but we shall not pain the past in pink colors. Most of the IRC seasons were full of up-and-downs with strong events mixed with weak ones. Just remember how many drivers went to China, Brazil etc.

[Fran2013]

Nice well formed argument there...

I think your assessment is a bit harsh although I understand the sentiment.. This year isn"t looking good.

ERC does arguably have Poland's best rally driver and one of the most interesting newcomers in Lukyanuk on it's books though.

I don't really know what they can do. The promotional package is much better than WRC2 and up to now it and IRC has been a much more successful career ladder than recent WRC support categories.

It's key weakness seems to be that young drivers want to learn the WRC roads.

The promotion doesn´t mean nothing. Bernando Sousa said it well... He prefers to do the WRC2 because it is better for his local sponsors. WRC is far more stronger than ERC in main european countries and that's the main problem... In eastern Europe things are more balanced.... That is why you see a lot of drivers from those countries in ERC....

Can a british, french or spanish driver get more promotion from ERC than WRC2 ? Why there is not middle eastern pilots doing ERC ? Money ?

ERC needs to have a more balanced calendar with unique events. Rally Azores is always changing dates. One year is in May, then is February, then July, this year is in June.. It is an absurd....

This is indeed a dying series....

[RS]

The promotion doesn´t mean nothing. Bernando Sousa said it well... He prefers to do the WRC2 because it is better for his local sponsors. WRC is far more stronger than ERC in main european countries and that's the main problem... In eastern Europe things are more balanced.... That is why you see a lot of drivers from those countries in ERC....

If you're point is that ERC have no events in Spain, Italy, France, Germany then that is quite a valid one, but I suppose they try and avoid countries which already have a WRC rally?

That raises another question, about a 'world' championship which only has three events outside of Europe.

But regarding the promotion we are talking about WRC2 versus ERC. Is the promotion of WRC2 really much better in Europe than it is here in the UK? On the Monte roundup programme here they literally showed WRC2 for less than two minutes. I did time it.

[Mirek]

The promotion doesn´t mean nothing. Bernando Sousa said it well...

Bernardo said but facts oppose him. There is now around 50 registered competitors (in February) and far majority of them are privateers. IRC never had even close number of regulars to this. Just check the list and think why all of them entered: http://www.fiaerc.com/uploads/files/documents/261_2015_erc_registered_drivers_updated.pdf

Of course Sousa may say truth about himself but the general rule is definitely that media coverage matters and matters a lot.

[Jarek Z]

Just check the list and think why all of them entered: http://www.fiaerc.com/uploads/files/documents/261_2015_erc_registered_drivers_updated.pdf

The sad thing is that the quantity is there, but what about quality? Out of the 15 drivers in top ERC category only 4 drivers are good (Kajto, Breen, Lukyanuk, Consani). All others are not even good enough to win their local championships at home. Or to beat a 20-year old unknown Scandinavian driver in Opel Adam R2 :(

[Fran2013]

Bernardo said but facts oppose him. There is now around 50 registered competitors (in February) and far majority of them are privateers. IRC never had even close number of regulars to this. Just check the list and think why all of them entered: http://www.fiaerc.com/uploads/files/documents/261_2015_erc_registered_drivers_updated.pdf

Of course Sousa may say truth about himself but the general rule is definitely that media coverage matters and matters a lot.

Facts ?

The facts are simple...

Bernardo Sousa sponsors are portuguese. What he said was simple... He gets more covereage from portuguese press and media competing in WRC than in the ERC... The same for many others in europe....

Live TV is not all..... Because of social media, the Live TV factor is not so important as it was before....

[Sulland]

There has to be a real incentive to choose ERC vs WRC if you have a R5, R3 or R2, and are aiming for the top in rallying.

in IRC you had an own car class, fresh management, and teams that chose drivers from IRC.
FIA need to get some real winner incentives implemented in ERC to get the talents to chose ERC over WRC as their place to grow!

Maybe also invent the new R4 class, maybe something like this:
http://www.omse.se/?page_id=186

[Fran2013]

One simple example..

Last year Rally Liepāja topic had +400 posts. 2015 Rally Liepāja topic only has 280... That's a big drop. Maybe less people on the forum ? No interest in this rally ? Maybe yes maybe not... But things are not looking good

[tommeke_B]

What sponsors for Sousa? A football club and rally-team of Tamrazov?
Another simple fact is that Peugeot Portugal always chose IRC/ERC over SWRC/WRC2. :)

IMO the issue in ERC now is that there are not enough events that are big enough (in their own country and in international reputation). Events like Liepaja and Ireland don't attract enough local drivers and spectators, ERC is at it's "peak" in events like Ypres and Barum where a big number of national drivers takes on the battle with the "big" international drivers. ERC is the biggest championship that is/was somewhat accessible for national drivers. But now FIA is messing it up by seperating the fields for those who are entered in the championship and those who are not. A national driver with top car can start 30-40 cars after the other "top" drivers... They are destroying the most interesting thing of the championhip...

[Jarek Z]

They are destroying the most interesting thing of the championhip...

Exactly! They intentionally destroy the beauty of this sport and insolently call it "Serious competition ahead".

[mousti]

The junior championship is great. In some ways ERC is better than IRC was - there is much more regular competitors and the junior category slowly becomes the most important part of the package which isn't that wrong in my opinion. The competition on the top level is worse than in the best IRC years but we shall not pain the past in pink colors. Most of the IRC seasons were full of up-and-downs with strong events mixed with weak ones. Just remember how many drivers went to China, Brazil etc.

Chris Ingram is definately agreeing
@1ChrisIngram

The competition in @FIAERC junior is unreal! Forget your dmack cup and JWRC -



:p

[Mirek]

People shall not look at ERC as a competition to WRC. It will never be a competition to WRC unless FIA or RBMH fucks things up. There is plenty of bad things about ERC now but the fact is that ERC has never had so many regulars. It shows that some things we don't like actually work (such as those separate fields).

When IRC was on its top the regulars were only about a dozen of drivers of very high quality largely sitting in works cars. People were crying that only several drivers do the whole championship and some events looked like a farce (China for example). Now we have plenty of drivers but we have reasonably weaker competition on top. That may by a temporary issue caused by waiting for Škoda. It's not only the works team. I'm sure there are private teams waiting for Fabia R5 which may want to take part in ERC. In any case for me only the existence of JERC makes ERC worth following.

I also very much disagree with saying that IRC had better calendars than ERC. The calendars were messy in that time. There were great events and really bad ones. Calendar was too large, changing a lot every year and often made little sense with ambitious experiments like China, Kenya, Brazil or Russia. The calendar what we have now is reduced to a sensible number of events and is relatively well balanced.

[A FONDO]

ERC is now bullshit....

No, it is normal now. Marginal series with marginal drivers on marginal events. It was interesting for a couple os seasons a few years back but it was just its peak, not its usual status.

[AndyRAC]

I'd agree with Mirek - the IRC was sometimes very, very good. But, alas it was also sometimes pretty poor. It seemed it wanted to be another International Rally series; which sounds good in theory, but is expensive.

The IRC Montes were the highlight, along with Ypres and Barum; I also enjoyed Valais 2008 with the first live TV coverage. The Sanremo with the monster stage on the Friday night was also something that worked - and probably wouldn't have been allowed in the WRC. I did like the freedom the organisers had, something the WRC still can't get right.

It seems that if a country had a strong S2000 scene, then they usually got a very good IRC entry. And, the opposite is true - the IRC Rally Scotland was a fantastic event; apart from the entry. Very few 'local' UK crews entered. And that is because hardly anybody had a S2000. Off the top of my head, the 2009 event had Wilks, Meeke, Cronin, McRae, Gould, plus '0' car driven by Wilson as the only S2000 cars... The following 2 years were slightly better, but not fantastic.

I think by 2012, they had to call it a day - and merging with the ERC was probably the right move. Though, I'm still not convinced they've got the ERC totally right.

[Munkvy]

So far ERC has only run 2 very specialised events this year. Neither used regular surfaces and were highly unpredictable as to exactly what tyres and/or setup to run. They are also dominated typically by specialist drivers and require prior knowledge of driving on a rather unusual surface...

Even Breen who is a semi works driver struggled with setup in Janner. If I was wanting to enter a series and had a limited budget and there were events like that, I would avoid them and stick to regular gravel or tarmac events that I have a reliable tyre and setup arrangement for and not risk a gamble. This sport is expensive and if you have to have 3 types of tyres on hand in significant quantities, that could well bankrupt a privateer.

[PLuto]

Bernardo said but facts oppose him. There is now around 50 registered competitors (in February) and far majority of them are privateers. IRC never had even close number of regulars to this. Just check the list and think why all of them entered: http://www.fiaerc.com/uploads/files/documents/261_2015_erc_registered_drivers_updated.pdf

Of course Sousa may say truth about himself but the general rule is definitely that media coverage matters and matters a lot.

I think we were discussing this words of Bernardo in the past. He was trying to do both - IRC/ERC and WRC2. And in reality, in WRC2 he has/had bigger chance to win because of not so strong competition and more "endurance" style of rallying...

[PLuto]

The sad thing is that the quantity is there, but what about quality? Out of the 15 drivers in top ERC category only 4 drivers are good (Kajto, Breen, Lukyanuk, Consani). All others are not even good enough to win their local championships at home. Or to beat a 20-year old unknown Scandinavian driver in Opel Adam R2 :(

I hope there will come some other good drivers. It is still beginning of season with Janner in "stupid date" and Latvia, where is difficult to get points for non local or scandinavian drivers. I hope that we will see also some other drivers since Ireland...

[PLuto]

One simple example..

Last year Rally Liepāja topic had +400 posts. 2015 Rally Liepāja topic only has 280... That's a big drop. Maybe less people on the forum ? No interest in this rally ? Maybe yes maybe not... But things are not looking good

I can give you another example - Last year Monte had 1929 posts, this year 2 943? Maybe more people on the forum? Maybe better promotion of WRC? Maybe better weather conditions? Or it was everything only about "Loeb effect"? It is very difficult to predict anything from this numbers... In reality, you can find there what you really want...

[Fran2013]

No live TV from the Azores in 2015. Enough said about this crap championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0lHnCHt5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRKuXqIo7gI

[Franky]

I honestly don't get all this negativity. It's always been about money and always will be about money.

[Fran2013]

Skoda out of ERC 2015 ? Going to WRC2 ?

It says a lot... Thanks FIA for killing ERC and Eurosport for being so stupid about the change to ERC...

I am not surprised abour rumours that Eurosport are not happy with FIA and the cut of live TV is only one of the first measures......There is even talk that Eurosport could leave ERC in 2016.....

[WUff1]

Skoda out of ERC 2015 ? Going to WRC2 ?



Yeah looks like this, unfortunately.

[liposh]

I think ERC this year is quite success. Skoda focusing on WRC2 is "big boys business", which normal human will not understand. But I expect some kind of ERC program like: Ypres:Loix in half factory car + Kopecky, Barum: Kopecky+Lappi etc. ...or something like that. I think Kopecky on tarmac with Skoda R5 could be fast like hell and it is great promotion, only idiot will use him only for Czech championship. ...Now we will see whether Mr. Hrabanek is an idiot or not? :-D

[stefanvv]

I think ERC this year is quite success.

Where do You see success? Live stages are less and less. In Ireland it was just a city stage which was quite boring, in Azores there will be no live coverage this year, thanks to Roland Garos they say. I would say despite the less events, and supposing bigger competition, it is quite a failure so far. I enjoyed Janner though, it was great event. Other positive thing is that Valais is back, don't want to think if it was out as was planned.

[liposh]

It is not about quantity of live coverage, but it is about number of registered crews. I really don´t know what most of you guys expected. I am happy with present situation because I am not child and I don´t trust in fairytales anymore.
And moreover you can clearly see if organizer of event wants to make some live coverage on web it is possible. It is very important finding. ...but the organizer must be a little bit more clever than those guys who for example didn´t notice Czechoslovakia doesn´t exist anymore and so he should choose better special stage. It isn´t that expensive.

[stefanvv]

The quantity of registered drivers is always a good thing, the quality of the competition and promotion of the sport are another matter. For those of us who have only the internet at home, the promotion is important, not speaking of the audience various team sponsors get from this around Europe. May be Eurosport had spoiled us with Monte Carlo & Azores live coverages, so we expect much more from them being ERC promoter.
For sure ERC will miss Skoda very much, let's see what the future will bring. But at least last year there were events with factory teams involved, now there is only Breen as experienced factory driver. It's good we have Kajto & Lukyanuk as the most serious private drivers. But may be R5 is also a factor as we see now with Consani similar situation with Abbring last year, let's hope it won't continue like this. So private competition is getting better as a positive thing I would also agree upon, but the rest is just fading.

[Munkvy]

I am not sure we can compare ERC to the top IRC days? Then there was simply more manufacturers interested in the sport and the S2000 class worked well for many of them, this is no longer the case, the R5 being quite different and a general lesser level of interest from manufacturers.

So given this, we can't expect many manufacturers teams surely? So the fact that there may well just be the one team, yet they are being challenged by privateers and locals is surely a good sign that the level of competition is farer than say WRC? So I think in some ways it is good that we don't need manufacturers to see competition at the front of the field? And sadly we all know Skoda would most likely come in and dominate like usual... So it is in some ways good they aren't here at least at the moment.

Yes I agree more coverage would be good, but without the world status, I imagine it is not easy to get the same level of coverage as WRC and it's not like WRC is what you would call brilliant most of the time?

[RS]

I think ERC this year is quite success. Skoda focusing on WRC2 is "big boys business", which normal human will not understand. But I expect some kind of ERC program like: Ypres:Loix in half factory car + Kopecky, Barum: Kopecky+Lappi etc. ...or something like that. I think Kopecky on tarmac with Skoda R5 could be fast like hell and it is great promotion, only idiot will use him only for Czech championship. ...Now we will see whether Mr. Hrabanek is an idiot or not? :-D

Mr Hrabanek is for sure not an idiot. I only wish the team had been that well run during the Fabia WRC era.

I agree that Kopecky is too good for just the Czech Championship though. I hope and expect some 'guest appearances' elsewhere.

[rallyfiend]

The quantity of registered drivers is always a good thing, the quality of the competition and promotion of the sport are another matter. For those of us who have only the internet at home, the promotion is important, not speaking of the audience various team sponsors get from this around Europe. May be Eurosport had spoiled us with Monte Carlo & Azores live coverages, so we expect much more from them being ERC promoter.
For sure ERC will miss Skoda very much, let's see what the future will bring. But at least last year there were events with factory teams involved, now there is only Breen as experienced factory driver. It's good we have Kajto & Lukyanuk as the most serious private drivers. But may be R5 is also a factor as we see now with Consani similar situation with Abbring last year, let's hope it won't continue like this. So private competition is getting better as a positive thing I would also agree upon, but the rest is just fading.

I think the point is that Eurosport has done zero to take the sport / championship forward.

It's not so much a comparison from the IRC to the ERC days, but also just a comparison from the last two years of ERC to this year.

There is no improvement, no development in the promotion. Its gone backwards. No Live TV, poor promotion etc. Hell, we couldn't even follow Circuit of Ireland on the internet becuase there was no results...

Why is Eurosport held to a lower standard then WRC Promoter? They get hauled over the coals by people on here when a few splits are missing....

[AndyRAC]

I agree the promotion is poor. The Live coverage is virtually zero, highlights at 10-11 at night isn't good enough in my opinion. As usual on an event I went on a few forum/ websites; sadly, very little interest in the event; hardly any comments at all. Autosport only put a report up after the event, nothing during it.....which isn't really a surprise. You wouldn't think there was a Hollywood actor in the event....
I just think that Eurosport could do more as the series promoter.

[denkimi]

I am not sure we can compare ERC to the top IRC days? Then there was simply more manufacturers interested in the sport and the S2000 class worked well for many of them, this is no longer the case, the R5 being quite different and a general lesser level of interest from manufacturers.

how much manufacturers where really interested in a full irc program? fiat in the beginning, then skoda and proton. all the rest were funded as local or private projects.

[Mirek]

You somehow forgot the most active team through the IRC history -Peugeot. They usually used proxies for their IRC campaign like Peugeot Espagna, later Kronos or Saintéloc but it was same like with Kronos and Loeb in 2006. Most of the teams but especially Peugeot also supported huge number of importer teams, some of those were closer to the factory, some farther but they were there. Those sure counts as some of them were very serious contenders.

Anyway You missed the point. Munkvy didn't speak about manufacturer teams doing full IRC but about them making cars available for the championship and subsequently supporting privateers to use them. In 2010 there was 8 different S2000 cars on the market (Fabia, 207, Fiesta, Punto, Polo, Proton, Corsa, MG) and all of them appeared in the IRC despite some of them being unsuccessful. Also when speaking about IRC we can not dismiss gr.N cars of another two brands. They often fought for the podium.

New S2000 homologations were banned in 2011 but since then only three RRC cars appeared in IRC/ERC (Fiesta, Mini, DS3) and since all were too expensive the vast majority of teams continued using S2000. Than in 2012 FIA created R5 class but there was only one car available in 2013, two at the start of 2014 and three at the mid-season. Now we don't have more and everybody is waiting for Škoda to start selling their fourth one. That's not much of an achievement from FIA in comparison with let's say 2010.

[cardy]

tv coverage on eurosport in uk is poor they showed more of Irelands landmarks than rally cars on Saturday night 30mins is not enough really

[Jarek Z]

New S2000 homologations were banned in 2011 but since then only three RRC cars appeared in IRC/ERC (Fiesta, Mini, DS3) (...).
Then in 2012 FIA created R5 class but there was only one car available in 2013, two at the start of 2014 and three at the mid-season. Now we don't have more and everybody is waiting for Škoda to start selling their fourth one. That's not much of an achievement from FIA (...)

Those are exactly those idiotic decicions from FIA that I will never understand. They killed Super 2000 class (with 8 cars) in 2011, but 4 years later there are still just three R5 cars available. The same with Super 1600 (12 cars!). This class was supposed to be replaced with R3, but how many R3 cars have been produced since then? 2? 3?

Why killing everything when there is no alternative?

[Jarek Z]

tv coverage on eurosport in uk is poor they showed more of Irelands landmarks than rally cars on Saturday night 30mins is not enough really

I'm sorry to complain again, but the coverage that I see at http://www.fiaerc.com/videogallery/list/id/29 is shit! What is it supposed to be? Just a few boring videos from 2 days of fierce competition? The drivers were describing the stages as the most beautiful tarmac stages in the world. Do we see that in the Eurosport videos? I don't. Moreover, where is Consani, where is Lukyanuk on those videos? Where is the Porsche? Is it really so difficult to make an interview with Robert Woodside, show his car, make him say a few words about his father, his victory, show some history of the rally, some history of the Porsche, etc.?

[cardy]

I'm sorry to complain again, but the coverage that I see at http://www.fiaerc.com/videogallery/list/id/29 is shit! What is it supposed to be? Just a few boring videos from 2 days of fierce competition? The drivers were describing the stages as the most beautiful tarmac stages in the world. Do we see that in the Eurosport videos? I don't. Moreover, where is Consani, where is Lukyanuk on those videos? Where is the Porsche? Is it really so difficult to make an interview with Robert Woodside, show his car, make him say a few words about his father, his victory, show some history of the rally, some history of the Porsche, etc.?

I agree with you on all points

[lewalcindor]

I'm sorry to complain again, but the coverage that I see at http://www.fiaerc.com/videogallery/list/id/29 is shit! What is it supposed to be? Just a few boring videos from 2 days of fierce competition? The drivers were describing the stages as the most beautiful tarmac stages in the world. Do we see that in the Eurosport videos? I don't. Moreover, where is Consani, where is Lukyanuk on those videos? Where is the Porsche? Is it really so difficult to make an interview with Robert Woodside, show his car, make him say a few words about his father, his victory, show some history of the rally, some history of the Porsche, etc.?

This Youtube channel has longer Eurosport ERC videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/MotorsportFunCyprus/videos

[Rally Power]

Those are exactly those idiotic decicions from FIA that I will never understand. They killed Super 2000 class (with 8 cars) in 2011.

In this case it was simple and pure policy!

Some of you’ve already pointed some tips about what went wrong with the IRC/ERC transition but we’re missing the big picture: there was no room for 2 international major series like the WRC and the IRC.

In the last years of Mr. Mosley presidency (who didn’t care a sh.. about rally), FIA left WRC on the loose, with teams fighting each other for the use of ultra expensive tech cars.

Peugeot, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Suzuki, even Subaru quit the game because it was too expensive and technically too demanding, so Ford and Citroen were left alone for a couple of years. No one at the FIA quarters seemed to care, even if there were endless discussions about what type of cars should replace the almost extinct WRC2.0T category.

It’s also convenient to remember that previously the backup formula in WRC (F2), that began in the group A days and become very popular with the 2wd, 2 litres factory supported kit-cars, was banned, shortly after Mr. Richard took WRC promotion control (through ISC).

So, in the mid 00’s WRC was an agonizing series (to get even worse a French driver become insolently unbeatable) with little or no attention from FIA, manufacturers, media and only hardcore fans continue to follow it.

Profiting from this poor WRC state, Eurosport, that was already promoting WTCC, proposed the IRC to the FIA, in order to establish a sort of second level for international rally, allegedly not address to manufacturers (at the beginning there were only drivers titles).

Surprising FIA accept it, and Eurosport made an extraordinary job, promoting this series from zero to become a WRC rival, basing it in the more simple and affordable S2000 category (that was born to become a challenge to Gr.N in national and international series).

Spreading to an intercontinental status and attracting factory supported teams with the attribution of manus titles, IRC become a rally marvel and manage to overpass WRC in a lot of aspects. Even the prestigious Monte Carlo rally preferred to enter the series instead of continuing in a defunct WRC.

In the late 00’s, when Mr. Todt took the FIA leadership he had a dilemma: which world rally series to support – IRC or WRC; simply because there was only room for one of them.

Maybe because Mr. Todt career was heavily linked to the classic WRC rallies, maybe because he was pressured from the manus represented at the FIA WRC commission, or for any other reason, one thing become clear: WRC should prevail.

In a short time Mr. Todt managed to implement the new WRC1.6T category, not so expensive and technically easier and tried to restore a more genuine WRC, with back to roots events. Mini follow the already committed Citroen and Ford and then there was a fortunate break: the VW board was convinced to get into WRC, after the Dakar programme.

Meanwhile, maybe by VW pressure, Eurosport wasn’t chose to replace ISC/NO as WRC promoter (perhaps the major injustice in this entire story), so definitely there’s was a political move to put IRC in stagnation mode, firstly by ending S2000 new homologations and then restraining it to Europe.

Even with RedBull/MH having no clue on how to promote WRC, VW involvement brought media attention and global motor companies soon followed: first Hyundai, now Toyota.

In this revitalized WRC, backup categories like WRC2 become once again more attractive, like the recent Skoda participation proves, and only the worldwide events expansion remain to be seen.

Left alone with the IRC brilliant recollections, now what can Eurosport do for ERC future?

[EightGear]

The strongest IRC years were indeed before WRC started their own S2000 championship. 2011 was the last great year IMO.

[PLuto]

Left alone with the IRC brilliant recollections, now what can Eurosport do for ERC future?

I like your "story" message and I agree with lot of points. And this last question is very important and answer is not easy...

[rallyfiend]

Some of you’ve already pointed some tips about what went wrong with the IRC/ERC transition but we’re missing the big picture: there was no room for 2 international major series like the WRC and the IRC.

Profiting from this poor WRC state, Eurosport, that was already promoting WTCC, proposed the IRC to the FIA, in order to establish a sort of second level for international rally, allegedly not address to manufacturers (at the beginning there were only drivers titles).

Surprising FIA accept it, and Eurosport made an extraordinary job, promoting this series from zero to become a WRC rival, basing it in the more simple and affordable S2000 category (that was born to become a challenge to Gr.N in national and international series).

Even the prestigious Monte Carlo rally preferred to enter the series instead of continuing in a defunct WRC.

In the late 00’s, when Mr. Todt took the FIA leadership he had a dilemma: which world rally series to support – IRC or WRC; simply because there was only room for one of them.

Maybe because Mr. Todt career was heavily linked to the classic WRC rallies, maybe because he was pressured from the manus represented at the FIA WRC commission, or for any other reason, one thing become clear: WRC should prevail.

In a short time Mr. Todt managed to implement the new WRC1.6T category, not so expensive and technically easier and tried to restore a more genuine WRC, with back to roots events. Mini follow the already committed Citroen and Ford and then there was a fortunate break: the VW board was convinced to get into WRC, after the Dakar programme.

In this revitalized WRC, backup categories like WRC2 become once again more attractive, like the recent Skoda participation proves, and only the worldwide events expansion remain to be seen.

Left alone with the IRC brilliant recollections, now what can Eurosport do for ERC future?

Hmmm. where to begin....

1) IRC was dying on its feet before it was abandoned
2) IRC was never an FIA-sanctioned series. It was run under license from the Swiss ASN. Yes, it was run under FIA regs and requirements, but it was a commercial series - not controlled by FIA.
3) Eurosport have shown through their efforts on WTCC (reduced manufacturers) and ERC (what a shambles) that they SHOULDN'T have been chosen to run WRC. On what basis should they have been?!
4) Current WRC Promoter has done what everyone wanted: provided a worldwide promotional platform for manufacturers to want to be involved. Lots of Live TV, alleged plans to expand worldwide (China, Japan again, Brazil), and more events wanting to be part of the championship than there are slots. You can't say that about ERC!

[AndyRAC]

The strongest IRC years were indeed before WRC started their own S2000 championship. 2011 was the last great year IMO.

2009-2011 were the best years, with the best competition, though 2008 wasn't too bad, and was an apertif for the next few seasons; also 2008 saw the first live TV coverage from Valais.

[denkimi]

You somehow forgot the most active team through the IRC history -Peugeot. They usually used proxies for their IRC campaign like Peugeot Espagna, later Kronos or Saintéloc but it was same like with Kronos and Loeb in 2006. Most of the teams but especially Peugeot also supported huge number of importer teams, some of those were closer to the factory, some farther but they were there. Those sure counts as some of them were very serious contenders.

Anyway You missed the point. Munkvy didn't speak about manufacturer teams doing full IRC but about them making cars available for the championship and subsequently supporting privateers to use them. In 2010 there was 8 different S2000 cars on the market (Fabia, 207, Fiesta, Punto, Polo, Proton, Corsa, MG) and all of them appeared in the IRC despite some of them being unsuccessful. Also when speaking about IRC we can not dismiss gr.N cars of another two brands. They often fought for the podium.

New S2000 homologations were banned in 2011 but since then only three RRC cars appeared in IRC/ERC (Fiesta, Mini, DS3) and since all were too expensive the vast majority of teams continued using S2000. Than in 2012 FIA created R5 class but there was only one car available in 2013, two at the start of 2014 and three at the mid-season. Now we don't have more and everybody is waiting for Škoda to start selling their fourth one. That's not much of an achievement from FIA in comparison with let's say 2010.

peugeot only developed the car, and thats all as far as i know. local importers payed for the irc-programs, not peugeot itself.
perhaps some teams got some support from the factory, but they never became factory-teams.

and be honest. of all the s2000 cars, only the punto, the fabia, the 207 and the fiesta where build by (semi-)manufacturers. the corsa, polo and the mg where private projects. thats 4 manufacturers.

now with r5 we have already 3, a 4th coming soon, and perhaps 2 more.

s2000 was qua manufacturers not the great success people want to believe, and r5 is not the big setback.

[Mirek]

peugeot only developed the car, and thats all as far as i know. local importers payed for the irc-programs, not peugeot itself.
perhaps some teams got some support from the factory, but they never became factory-teams.

Let's not go semantics too much. Peugeot Espagna in 2007 and after that Kronos were both technically and financially heavily supported by Peugeot and they were official teams of the brand in the IRC and as such they shall be considered factory teams (the factory payed them for their services). They had factory engineers, factory drivers (those had often contracts signed with Peugeot directly). For Your information now even their successor Saintéloc (Peugeot Academy) is registered as factory team and therefore is not eligible for privateer points. Such clear definition didn't exist in the IRC as rules were different but Kronos few years back definitely wasn't less "factory" then Saintéloc now. Moreover Peugeot used cars in full factory colors in high-profile events with Bouffier, Sarrazin or Ogier behind the wheel (Ypres, Monte Carlo, Sardinia, Barum, Sanremo etc.).


s2000 was qua manufacturers not the great success people want to believe, and r5 is not the big setback.

S2000 was a great success as it was the rally formula with largest ever production numbers with some 400 cars despite being stopped by the FIA at the popularity peak (at the end of 2010 season). We can only speculate how it would grow if FIA let it continue. If it was a misconception or a deliberate attempt to bring down the IRC I don't know but I'm sure it damaged rallying a sport.

[RS]

and be honest. of all the s2000 cars, only the punto, the fabia, the 207 and the fiesta where build by (semi-)manufacturers. the corsa, polo and the mg where private projects. thats 4 manufacturers.

now with r5 we have already 3, a 4th coming soon, and perhaps 2 more.


You forgot Proton, that was supported by the manufacturer.

DS3/208 can barely be counted as two different cars. Who are the other two perhaps coming? Hyundai and Opel?

[RS]

3) Eurosport have shown through their efforts on WTCC (reduced manufacturers) and ERC (what a shambles) that they SHOULDN'T have been chosen to run WRC. On what basis should they have been?!
4) Current WRC Promoter has done what everyone wanted: provided a worldwide promotional platform for manufacturers to want to be involved. Lots of Live TV, alleged plans to expand worldwide (China, Japan again, Brazil), and more events wanting to be part of the championship than there are slots. You can't say that about ERC!

A little harsh.

Remember that ERC currently is still better promoted than it was previous to Eurosport taking over.. and that the success of Eurosport with live IRC was probably what forced WRC to up it's game in that respect.

Red Bull have made progress with WRC but they haven't got remotely close to matching Eurosport's 'full Monte' yet and visibility of the series is still quite poor in the UK at least, despite there being two British drivers in the series.

[Mirek]

You are right in both points. ERC before the merge with IRC was just a farce. The current state may be seen as bad by someone but it's waaaaaay better than five years a go.

[Rally Power]

Eurosport have shown (...) that they SHOULDN'T have been chosen to run WRC. On what basis should they have been?!


Only after reading twice I understood you’re obviously joking….

As far as I remember Eurosport was refused by FIA to promote WRC in 2 times, both of them after the proven IRC success: at the beginning of 2009 and in mid-2012. In 2009 FIA preferred North One Television (owner of ISC), that came responsible for the 2012 WRC promotion fiasco. In 2012, FIA preferred Red Bull / Media House, with no previous rally experience. Using your words, on what basis should NOTV and RB/MH had been chose to run WRC?!?

Btw, I’m not a Eurosport employee, just a huge rally fan that regrets FIA lost opportunity to renew WRC using Eurosport proven rally passion and experience.

P.S.: IRC was always sanctioned by FIA, otherwise no manus or FIA priority drivers would compete in it. Even some of IRC rallies were part of the FIA regional organized championships (Europe, Middle East and Asia Pacific). Don’t forget that IRC quickly got a global coverage, with rallies in China, South Africa, Kenya, Brasil and Russia. The current promoter is still trying to bring some of these countries to WRC!

[rallyfiend]

Only after reading twice I understood you’re obviously joking….

As far as I remember Eurosport was refused by FIA to promote WRC in 2 times, both of them after the proven IRC success: at the beginning of 2009 and in mid-2012. In 2009 FIA preferred North One Television (owner of ISC), that came responsible for the 2012 WRC promotion fiasco. In 2012, FIA preferred Red Bull / Media House, with no previous rally experience. Using your words, on what basis should NOTV and RB/MH had been chose to run WRC?!?

Btw, I’m not a Eurosport employee, just a huge rally fan that regrets FIA lost opportunity to renew WRC using Eurosport proven rally passion and experience.

P.S.: IRC was always sanctioned by FIA, otherwise no manus or FIA priority drivers would compete in it. Even some of IRC rallies were part of the FIA regional organized championships (Europe, Middle East and Asia Pacific). Don’t forget that IRC quickly got a global coverage, with rallies in China, South Africa, Kenya, Brasil and Russia. The current promoter is still trying to bring some of these countries to WRC!

It should come as no surprise that FIA chose NOS to promote the sport in 2009 - they were already basically doing the job anyway. Why unnecessarily rock the boat?
As for the 2012 problem, well, who could foresee that? Shame on the FIA for not doing its due dilligence on the Russian when they allowed the company to be sold to him.

As for Eurosport now - well, where is this passion you speak of? Where was that passion when IRC was struggling in 2012?

Oh, and you're wrong about IRC as an FIA-sanctioned series. It was a commercial series run under a license from Swiss ASN. That's why they could never use the word 'Championship'.

There's a difference between FIA-sanctioned, and FIA-tolerated...

As for the events Eurosport ran in Brazil, China and Africa under the IRC... How did they work out? No wonder the WRC is wary of them. You could reasonably argue that Eurosport's ambition was far in advance of their capability....

I too am no employee of any rally entity, I'm just concious of the golden opinion people can have of things in the past...

[Sulland]

Hmmm. where to begin....

1) IRC was dying on its feet before it was abandoned
2) IRC was never an FIA-sanctioned series. It was run under license from the Swiss ASN. Yes, it was run under FIA regs and requirements, but it was a commercial series - not controlled by FIA.
3) Eurosport have shown through their efforts on WTCC (reduced manufacturers) and ERC (what a shambles) that they SHOULDN'T have been chosen to run WRC. On what basis should they have been?!
4) Current WRC Promoter has done what everyone wanted: provided a worldwide promotional platform for manufacturers to want to be involved. Lots of Live TV, alleged plans to expand worldwide (China, Japan again, Brazil), and more events wanting to be part of the championship than there are slots. You can't say that about ERC!

1) But why did IRC start to loose its ground?
In my opinion this happened because they spread the rallies to places privateers did not have the funds to travel. Had they kept to where most of the drivers and team were from, mainland Europe, it would have kept growing. You need to arrange rallies where the money is, and not where the manufacturers hope to expand to!
2) Was this a bad thing?? It worked fine!
3) BS! Eurosport rallycoverage in IRC was the best I have seen. i still remember live stages in Monte and a few others rallies. Not much I remember fram WRC from the last couple of years!!
4) platform is not much better than the one before, I will not renew if it does not improve hugely!
I do not care if it is Worldwide, I want good rallies, not the ones that pay most to FIA!

But this is history, but important lessons learned to keep in mind to evolve ERC into a winning combo, on competition with WRC 2!

[Mirek]

Early IRC had a lot more distant event than later IRC or ERC. We shall not paint everything in bright colors. There were events in China, Kenya, Brazil, Argentina, Russia with very little interest from European teams. There were extremely strong European events but also a lot of weak ones. Your assumption is wrong here as the series developed towards a lot more friendier format through the time.

IRC was growing mainly because the WRC was in deep crisis in that time. It started to fade out with two things which may well be connected to each other - with ban of new S2000 homologation (completely illogical and utterly wrong no matter if it was taken by incompetence or in purpose to kill the series) and with the rise of WRC from the ashes.

[AndyRAC]

The current ERC is far better than the previous incarnation - however, all the momentum that the IRC had has been lost. The fantastic Live Monte coverage, the Valais live TV trial, the Rally Scotland live TV, etc

What have Eurosport done with the ERC since 2013?? They need to start promoting properly and having decent coverage. If they can't provide any Live coverage they shouldn't have bid for the rights. It's 2015, highlights only isn't good enough anymore.

[Mirek]

The privately-run IRC was a bit of punk thing. Rules were sometimes laughably simple, sometimes non-existent at all but it had the mojo. When it met the bureaucracy of FIA in ERC it just became another fossilized elephant (but it's still a lightyears better championship than before merging with IRC).

[Fran2013]

More than a year after my posting it is clear who was right about the current ERC

[tc10a]

Looking on the incredible entrylist of Rally Sweden with 27 (!!!) R5 cars and 3 S2000 cars, the 2016 ERC is probably in trouble. Probably the other european WRC round will not be much worse. It looks like the RC2 teams go the WRC way.

The opening ERC round is just around the corner, but to be honest there is not really much interest at all. No big news, 2 pages in forum,...

[RS]

Looking on the incredible entrylist of Rally Sweden with 27 (!!!) R5 cars and 3 S2000 cars, the 2016 ERC is probably in trouble. Probably the other european WRC round will not be much worse. It looks like the RC2 teams go the WRC way.

The opening ERC round is just around the corner, but to be honest there is not really much interest at all. No big news, 2 pages in forum,...

Last year was not too bad with three full time decent drivers. This year nothing much confirmed yet. I hope PLuto will tell us there is some good news soon.

I am disappointed Skoda don't show ERC any support when the publicity is so much better than WRC2, if not with the full works team then by sending at least Kopecky or Kreim there.