2014 Hungarian GP Thread

[driveace]

They have just agreed a £17 mill a year deal with Lewis,and say£60 mill over 3 years whilst Nico has a multi year deal at £14 mill a year .But if they piss Lewis off there is only so much he will take but if Alonso goes to McLaren I doubt Lewis will go too

[dj_bytedisaster]

:laugh:

You read former kart boss interview in German rag and quote as fact? You really grasp straws this time Mr DJ.

Auto Motor und Sport is not normally considered 'a rag'.

[Doc Austin]

..... if Alonso goes to McLaren I doubt Lewis will go too

After the way Alonso ratted McLaren to the FIA for a out for $100,000,000 fine, the only way I could ever out him in my car again would be with all the wheels loose and the fire system full of napalm. Talk of Alonso going back to McLaren just blows my mind.

[truefan72]

http://en.espnf1.com/hungary/motorsport/story/170121.html

all you need to know about Nico this weekend. "Advice on driving" priceless
and as to Hamilton, perhaps it is time to get a new race engineer. One who will actually work for him and provide better strategy SMH

[henners88]

You could say Hamilton sacrificed a chance at the win because he was afraid to race his team mate .
That's not playing for the team .
I think 'afraid' is the wrong word because racing is exactly what they did on the final lap. I don't think Lewis is ever afriad to race somebody and lets face it he's been doing a lot of racing and overtaking in the last few races.

Nico said this after the race:

"But the thing I am most annoyed about is the last lap. I had a little opportunity [to overtake Hamilton] and was so close but did not manage to use it.
The way he defended was OK. For the guy on the inside, it is his corner - so the guy on the outside needs to make it far enough in front so he can't be pushed out. I did not manage to do that."

[Tazio]

:stareup: You realize you're saying it's ok to race hard in F1, that's crazy talk Hennie ;)

[henners88]

Its crazy for the sensitive fans I know that lol.

[donKey jote]

After the way Alonso ratted McLaren to the FIA for a out for $100,000,000 fine, the only way I could ever out him in my car again would be with all the wheels loose and the fire system full of napalm. Talk of Alonso going back to McLaren just blows my mind.
You could also see it from another angle: talk of Alonso going back to Mclaren after they screwed him bla bla ;) :p

The other side of the story for balance:
The team made it clear early on (after the yellow press outrage about "poor Lew" not being allowed to race the "Evil Eyebrow Armada" in Monaco, or at the very latest after Hungary, where Lewis or his dad ratted the team on what should have been an internal affair) that Lewis was their chap. To such a degree, that Alonso and his entourage felt more at home in his old Renault box than in the Mclaren motor homes... Take any current paranoia from Lewis being in a "German" team favoring Nico and multiply it by 1000 ;)
In the heat of what must have been an extremely heated discussion with Ron, Alonso apparently threatened to "rat" him, upon which Ron chickened it and thought the best way out was to self-rat himself to the FIA first, just in case the evil eyebrow actually meant it.

That was a long enough time ago, Alonso is still one the best out there as are Mclaren...

[Doc Austin]

$100,000,000 buys a lot of bad blood. That all I'm saying.

[donKey jote]

While we're at it in our trip down memory lane...
Look at Alo and Ham in Mclarens in Monaco and compare with Ham and Ros in Mercs in Hungary ...
Now compare outrage, reactions, etc :andrea:
I seem to remember Alonso was the evil one back then... Now it's Nico for whining and not being able to pass (try Monaco for even easier passing) :)

I see sometimes where dj is coming from... He seems as sensitive to hypocrisy or jingoistic blindness towards the evil Germans as I was back then regarding the evil Spaniards :laugh:

[donKey jote]

$100,000,000 buys a lot of bad blood. That all I'm saying.
regardless of whether the drivers should have been let off or not and how they got caught:
They deserved it. They got caught.

[Storm]

Talk of Alonso going back to McLaren just blows my mind.


No. Nothing is forever - friends or enemies - in politics especially - and F1 is a lot of politics and a little racing.

[Doc Austin]

regardless of whether the drivers should have been let off or not and how they got caught: They deserved it. They got caught.

The drivers just knew what was going on. The people swapping the data should have simply been hung.

No. McLaren did not get caught. Dennis went to the FIA and told them what the engineers were up to. Still, Ron is responsible for what goes on under him, but I doubt he would have turned himself in if Alonso was not threatening to rat him out.

See, after that, now that you know what a snake the guy is, why ever trust him with anything ever again? I'de rather sit down over lunch with Horner and pay twice whatever Ricciardo or Vettel is actually worth because both of them have beat Alonso like a drum. I'de even try to get Kimmi. I would do anything but hire that guy back and chance him giving me the hose again.

[Doc Austin]

No. Nothing is forever - friends or enemies - in politics especially - and F1 is a lot of politics and a little racing.

No, but $100000000 is still a hell of a long time.

Don't worry. Ron will always have the last laugh.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a229/ToneXIR/Temp/rondeenisil7.jpg

Dennis tries hard not to laugh when he hears about Mosley's scandal


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200709/r176399_671860.jpg

Privately, however.........

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_01/RonDennisMOS1208_468x516.jpg

[donKey jote]

See, after that, now that you know what a snake the guy is, why ever trust him with anything ever again? .
Ron you mean? :andrea:

[Doc Austin]

Ron you mean? :andrea:

No. If Ron was the snake, with kind of money at stake, Alonso would have been found overdosed on speedballs in some cheap hotel bed with a dead tranny. In Italy that only costs about $10,000.

[zako85]

What a boring race. Clearly we need standing standing safety car restarts and success ballast to improve the show.

[Tazio]

The drivers just knew what was going on. The people swapping the data should have simply been hung.

No. McLaren did not get caught. Dennis went to the FIA and told them what the engineers were up to. Still, Ron is responsible for what goes on under him, but I doubt he would have turned himself in if Alonso was not threatening to rat him out.

See, after that, now that you know what a snake the guy is, why ever trust him with anything ever again? I'de rather sit down over lunch with Horner and pay twice whatever Ricciardo or Vettel is actually worth because both of them have beat Alonso like a drum. I'de even try to get Kimmi. I would do anything but hire that guy back and chance him giving me the hose again.Doc you still have an ax to grind with Fred from 2007? I love it. :laugh: Dude, get a massage ;)

[Doc Austin]

Doc you still have an ax to grind with Fred from 2007?

No. Not at all. It wasn't my money, but if it was yours I'm sure you'de still be pissed.

See, it's about trust. If I cost you a hundred million, would you ever trust me again? What's your price? Would you trust someone who stole $100 from you? $200? At what point to your write someone off as not being worth the risk? I'de say for any smart person it's a lot less that 100 mil.

And actually, Fernando is one of my favorite drivers because he races clean, but I don't think he is much of a man.

[Tazio]

No. Not at all. It wasn't my money, but if it was yours I'm sure you'de still be pissed.

See, it's about trust. If I cost you a hundred million, would you ever trust me again? What's your price? Would you trust someone who stole $100 from you? $200? At what point to your write someone off as not being worth the risk? I'de say for any smart person it's a lot less that 100 mil.

And actually, Fernando is one of my favorite drivers because he races clean, but I don't think he is much of a man.I don't claim to know Alonso the man nor do I want to, but to answer your query, I think 7 years is a reasonable statute of limitation!

[Bagwan]

I think 'afraid' is the wrong word because racing is exactly what they did on the final lap. I don't think Lewis is ever afriad to race somebody and lets face it he's been doing a lot of racing and overtaking in the last few races.

Nico said this after the race:

"But the thing I am most annoyed about is the last lap. I had a little opportunity [to overtake Hamilton] and was so close but did not manage to use it.
The way he defended was OK. For the guy on the inside, it is his corner - so the guy on the outside needs to make it far enough in front so he can't be pushed out. I did not manage to do that."

I was being deliberately provocative when saying afraid .

But , it wasn't just not playing for the team .
He might have had enough tires to fight at the end had he not decided to be paranoid about the team favouring Nico , and not let him through .

It could have been one two .
That looked to me what the team asking him to move over was all about .

Lewis was just paranoid that it looked like Nico was to be the number one in that scenario .
He was worried that Nico would come back at him on those fresher tires , and he was right .
Looks like a chicken move to me(another provocative statement) .

By this logic , and that looks to be what they were shooting for , he scuttled the chances by being selfish .

He didn't decide to not let him by because he wanted to race .
It was really quite the opposite .

With the kind of domination that the Mercs have right now , it is fortunate , to a degree , that this all happened , but from a Merc point of view , they lost points as a result .
They told the public what they wanted to hear right afterwards , though , so they saved face with the masses , unlike the unrepentant Reds , back in the days of Barrichello keeping his position until the final straight to illustrate his woeful multi-millionaire status as number two .

Nico was clever to not whine . It wouldn't have helped .
It certainly shows that he accepts this kind of racing , as if to tell Lewis the boundaries are set .

[Doc Austin]

I don't claim to know Alonso the man nor do I want to, but to answer your query, I think 7 years is a reasonable statute of limitation!

What if it were your $100000000? How long would it be before you would trust again?

[Tazio]

Since I live in the present, it would be as soon as I could acquire him to help me earn 2 :dozey:

[airshifter]

I was being deliberately provocative when saying afraid .

But , it wasn't just not playing for the team .
He might have had enough tires to fight at the end had he not decided to be paranoid about the team favouring Nico , and not let him through .

It could have been one two .
That looked to me what the team asking him to move over was all about .

Lewis was just paranoid that it looked like Nico was to be the number one in that scenario .
He was worried that Nico would come back at him on those fresher tires , and he was right .
Looks like a chicken move to me(another provocative statement) .

By this logic , and that looks to be what they were shooting for , he scuttled the chances by being selfish .

He didn't decide to not let him by because he wanted to race .
It was really quite the opposite .

With the kind of domination that the Mercs have right now , it is fortunate , to a degree , that this all happened , but from a Merc point of view , they lost points as a result .
They told the public what they wanted to hear right afterwards , though , so they saved face with the masses , unlike the unrepentant Reds , back in the days of Barrichello keeping his position until the final straight to illustrate his woeful multi-millionaire status as number two .

Nico was clever to not whine . It wouldn't have helped .
It certainly shows that he accepts this kind of racing , as if to tell Lewis the boundaries are set .

But, if someone were to be provocative on purpose but taking the other point of view....

We could easily say that the team was trying to screw over Lewis, and he didn't fall for letting the lesser driver by to steal championship points from him. Being that Mercedes are some 170+ points clear in the constructors championship, they have no real concern over the WDC, other than to gift it to a German driver. By all appearances of one being intentionally provocative, it would appear the selfishness of both Nico and the team was corrected by a racing driver wanting to race.



I still think it was a pointless request, and would have done nothing other than screw Hamiltons race. Nico could barely even get into DRS zone without a gift of a position, why should anyone think he wouldn't have held Lewis up after the gifted pass?

And though money talks and a person should support the team, I think if it was a down and out no questions order the team would have stated so rather than the suggestions they made over the radios. Even if there was a more direct order, Lewis knows they would be idiots to hold a grudge against the driver performing the best on the team.

[airshifter]

No. Not at all. It wasn't my money, but if it was yours I'm sure you'de still be pissed.

See, it's about trust. If I cost you a hundred million, would you ever trust me again? What's your price? Would you trust someone who stole $100 from you? $200? At what point to your write someone off as not being worth the risk? I'de say for any smart person it's a lot less that 100 mil.

And actually, Fernando is one of my favorite drivers because he races clean, but I don't think he is much of a man.

A snake will remain a snake. Even if the money was no object McLaren would have to be complete idiots to even think about bringing Fred back. Maybe Roamy will chime in and raise an argument to bring Flavio back as well. IMO F1 doesn't need any snakes or cheats, they have enough problems already.

Teflonso and DeLaRosa had info about gas mixture McLaren were using in tires and exchanged info proving it, so they weren't nearly all rosy white as some claim. Cue Flavio into the picture and it becomes clear that even though he is up among the most talented, he'll gladly cheat a win as well.

[henners88]

I was being deliberately provocative when saying afraid .

But , it wasn't just not playing for the team .
He might have had enough tires to fight at the end had he not decided to be paranoid about the team favouring Nico , and not let him through .

It could have been one two .
That looked to me what the team asking him to move over was all about .

Lewis was just paranoid that it looked like Nico was to be the number one in that scenario .
He was worried that Nico would come back at him on those fresher tires , and he was right .
Looks like a chicken move to me(another provocative statement) .

By this logic , and that looks to be what they were shooting for , he scuttled the chances by being selfish .

He didn't decide to not let him by because he wanted to race .
It was really quite the opposite .

With the kind of domination that the Mercs have right now , it is fortunate , to a degree , that this all happened , but from a Merc point of view , they lost points as a result .
They told the public what they wanted to hear right afterwards , though , so they saved face with the masses , unlike the unrepentant Reds , back in the days of Barrichello keeping his position until the final straight to illustrate his woeful multi-millionaire status as number two .

Nico was clever to not whine . It wouldn't have helped .
It certainly shows that he accepts this kind of racing , as if to tell Lewis the boundaries are set .
I guessed you were being deliberately provocative as we are talking about Lewis lol.

I don't really buy the team argument because of the position they are in. Something would have to go very wrong for Mercedes not to secure the constructors championship and its looking likely this will be the case a few races before the end of the season. We have a situation now where the team have the luxury of letting these guys fight it out to a degree. Ricciardo isn't a million miles behind in the drivers championship but if Mercedes work on their reliability, then both drivers should maintain the gap.

The incident in the race was more clear cut for me than Lewis being 'paranoid about the team favouring Nico'. I personally don't think the team were trying to screw Lewis, but simply make sure Nico also got the best out of his strategy. Mercedes were in a position where one drivers race had to be compromised in order for the other to get more points. In this instance it was Lewis, a driver who was ahead of his team mate who was asked to lose time and track position. Lewis needed to slow down considerably because Nico could not get close enough to overtake, even in the DRS zone. I don't think that was a fair request. In hindsight it also appears had Lewis let Nico by, he would have lost out even though he had one less stop to make. I can see why Lewis refused to slow down. In fact he didn't refuse to allow Nico to overtake, he refused to make it easy which are two different things in racing. Considering the constructors championship is not at risk at this point, asking a driver to hand points to his title rival is rather absurd. The hierarchy of the team should have stayed out of it and allowed each side of the garage make decision's and race fairly. This isn't a situation where one driver is miles ahead in the championship and his team mate is 5th or 6th and being told to hold station, its a close title fight and the fans want to see a fair one.

Rosberg when interviewed by the BBC strongly denied asking to be let by in the race but on two radio broadcasts he asked sternly "why isn't he letting me through?!".... I think his post race approach was professional though and the team realised the call was wrong. Lewis did what he had to do to close the points gap on his rival and gave us a good last lap scrap. A scrap coincidently that Rosberg was annoyed about, not because of Lewis defending hard, but because he felt he missed the opportunity. Nico had no problem with Hamilton's driving.

[Bagwan]

Merc wants to win .
They weren't trying to screw Lewis , but he thought they were .

If they want to win , they will tell both drivers they drive for the team .
An order is and order , and you follow it , knowing the team wants a fair fight .

They weren't screwing with Hamilton , but because he thought they were , he screwed Nico , and that screwed up the one , two , by degrading both car's tires .

Letting them fight it out is exactly what I want , and that's what I believe we missed out on , because Nico might have approached a few laps earlier , and Lewis would have had better tires with which to defend . It might have been epic .

So , in asking for Lewis to let him through , they were asking for a fair fight at the end , and in the end , Lewis either didn't understand , or didn't want to risk it .
He well understood that Nico had another stop to make .
He well understood what he was doing was compromising his team mate's strategy .

Paranoia is not one of Lewis's best character traits , but this was surely one of the best examples of it .

[AndyL]

Merc wants to win .
They weren't trying to screw Lewis , but he thought they were .

If they want to win , they will tell both drivers they drive for the team .
An order is and order , and you follow it , knowing the team wants a fair fight .

They weren't screwing with Hamilton , but because he thought they were , he screwed Nico , and that screwed up the one , two , by degrading both car's tires .

Letting them fight it out is exactly what I want , and that's what I believe we missed out on , because Nico might have approached a few laps earlier , and Lewis would have had better tires with which to defend . It might have been epic .

So , in asking for Lewis to let him through , they were asking for a fair fight at the end , and in the end , Lewis either didn't understand , or didn't want to risk it .
He well understood that Nico had another stop to make .
He well understood what he was doing was compromising his team mate's strategy .

Paranoia is not one of Lewis's best character traits , but this was surely one of the best examples of it .

Why should there only be a fair fight at the end, and not over the whole race? If you're on a more-stops strategy as Nico was, you know you will have to pass other people on track, and if you're not able to do so then you won't be able to make use of your extra speed. That's not unfair, it's just a part of the strategic game.

[henners88]

Merc wants to win .
They weren't trying to screw Lewis , but he thought they were .

If they want to win , they will tell both drivers they drive for the team .
An order is and order , and you follow it , knowing the team wants a fair fight .

They weren't screwing with Hamilton , but because he thought they were , he screwed Nico , and that screwed up the one , two , by degrading both car's tires .

Letting them fight it out is exactly what I want , and that's what I believe we missed out on , because Nico might have approached a few laps earlier , and Lewis would have had better tires with which to defend . It might have been epic .

So , in asking for Lewis to let him through , they were asking for a fair fight at the end , and in the end , Lewis either didn't understand , or didn't want to risk it .
He well understood that Nico had another stop to make .
He well understood what he was doing was compromising his team mate's strategy .

Paranoia is not one of Lewis's best character traits , but this was surely one of the best examples of it .
That does sound very one sided against Hamilton. We were given a fair fight in the middle stint between the two Merc drivers and we did see a battle on the last laps of the race. The outcome saw Lewis score more points than his team mate so it wasn't paranoia, but a racing driver protecting his interests and beating his title rival. As Andy says, why would it only be a fair fight at the end of the race? Is it because you feel Nico should have been allowed past to perform his preferred strategy? Well if it had been Alonso in Hamilton's position we would have seen the same outcome. We had Hamilton driving fast enough to hold Nico off and hard defensive racing at the end. I enjoyed it like the next man and instead of berating Lewis, we should respect he performed and adapted to the unexpected conditions and circumstances. ;)

[Bagwan]

Why should there only be a fair fight at the end, and not over the whole race? If you're on a more-stops strategy as Nico was, you know you will have to pass other people on track, and if you're not able to do so then you won't be able to make use of your extra speed. That's not unfair, it's just a part of the strategic game.

Nico was screwed by the SC , and only on that strategy , and behind Lewis , because of it .
I'm quite sure , had the situation been reversed , that Nico would have been told to do the same , and I would be just as pi$$ed if Rosberg had balked at the order .

Lewis fighting hard to keep him behind only hurt both , and they only managed a three, four , instead of a one, two .
He kept it from being a fair fight at the end , and got what he wanted , but not what the team wanted .
They've said that they understood why he didn't comply , but not that they were happy about his decision .

[Doc Austin]

Lauda simply would not stand for either driver getting less than equal treatment, and we al know he would raise utter hell about it. Therefore, I think Merc is providing equal equipment and Lewis has just been a little unlucky.

Besides, if you really wanted a solid #2 whipping boy, why would you hire Hamilton for 50mil when Barrichello was on the market (for pennies) and Massa was being forced out of Ferrari? If you really wanted a solid #2, what in the world would have been wrong with bringing in Hulkenberg and telling him that he is #2, but will have his chance after the Nico gets his championship.

That is always how Ken Tyrell did did it. Francios followed Jackie and got mentored by Jackie and was groomed to be Jackie's replacement as Tyrell #1 and the 74 champion as well , but again, it unfortunately went badly before we got a chance to see it play out.

If you are going to play team orders games, have a solid #1 and make sure the #2 knows his jhob depends on him staying#2 until it is his turn.

Anything less than a solid agreement with rigid rules leads to what Merc has on their hands now, and what McLaren had with Lewis and Alonso, and Prost and Senna. It leads to losing championships like Williams did with Mansell and Piquet

[AndyL]

Lewis fighting hard to keep him behind only hurt both , and they only managed a three, four , instead of a one, two .
He kept it from being a fair fight at the end , and got what he wanted , but not what the team wanted .

He did prevent the team getting a better overall result (2nd and 4th probably, 1st and 4th maybe an outside chance). But what I take issue with is your suggestion that failing to heed team orders prevented a "fair fight". Surely a race in which no driver benefits from team orders has to be fairer than a race in which one driver benefits from team orders?

[henners88]

Had Lewis let Nico by, even if they had secured a 1st and 2nd, Lewis would have given his team mate more points on a plate. Nico was screwed by the SC, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. It's bad luck, just like brake failures and cars catching fire in qualifying.

They deal with it and most of the time they don't have title rivals gifting them points.

[zako85]

Dunno why Niko felt entitled to have a pass by a team order. Why couldn't he pull up to Lewis at least within a half second? Lewis is right to say that he would lose 2-3 seconds just to let Niko pass. Lewis was right to question the team order at the time when the championship battle is far from settled.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Had Lewis let Nico by, even if they had secured a 1st and 2nd, Lewis would have given his team mate more points on a plate. Nico was screwed by the SC, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. It's bad luck, just like brake failures and cars catching fire in qualifying.

They deal with it and most of the time they don't have title rivals gifting them points.

Why then didn't the 'cookie crumble that way' last year in Malaysia. Nico was faster, Lewis' tyres were shot yet 'still I rise' boy had no trouble accepting that particular piece of team orders. He could have ignored those too and wave Nico past. The fact of the matter is. Lewis didn't build that car - 200 Merc folk did. So if the bloody guys who write his paycheck ask him to jump, it's his bloody duty to ask 'how high'. That was what everyone demanded of Vettel last year and of Massa earlier this season. Why do different rules apply to Lewis? Is it because 'I iz black'? I don't think so.

He ignored team orders and he was wrong, as were vettel in Malaysia 2013, Webber in Silverstone '11, and Massa this year.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Dunno why Niko felt entitled to have a pass by a team order. Why couldn't he pull up to Lewis at least within a half second? Lewis is right to say that he would lose 2-3 seconds just to let Niko pass. Lewis was right to question the team order at the time when the championship battle is far from settled.

Why was Webber 'entitled' to win last lear's malaysia GP? The championship fight was far from settled. Why was Alsonso 'entitled' to win Germany 2010? The championship fight was far from settled. Why do people think what is accepted for anyone else does not apply to Lewis Hamilton. What sets him apart from people like Vettel, Massa, Alonso or Bottas?

[Doc Austin]

Why then didn't the 'cookie crumble that way' last year in Malaysia.

I sincerely hope you don't lose your mind over this. Even Nico isn't crying over it any more.

[airshifter]

I sincerely hope you don't lose your mind over this. Even Nico isn't crying over it any more.

He loses his mind any time we don't make excuses for Vettel or hate on Hamilton. It's been that way for years.

The difference here is that Mr Tough Luck ignored team orders and got punked by his team mate on track. Lewis ignored team order that would have forced him to slow down enough to give his team mate a chance to pass.

Nico could barely get in the DRS zone, so why anyone thinks he could have upped the pace to challenge the leaders is beyond me. He and the safety car had already shot his race and was simply hoping the team would gift him the higher finishing position.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't often agree with DJ, particularly where Vettel is concerned, but he has a point. Vettel was soundly criticised for ignoring team orders last year yet Hamilton is praised for it. Even if the two situations aren't identical, it is hypocritical, any way you look at it.

Personally I think Hamilton was wrong to ignore team orders just as Vettel was last year. Mercedes were also wrong in issuing the order in the first place. They don't need to do this as they are only fighting themselves for both championships. They hired two number 1 drivers and when you do that you are implicitly expecting them to race each other until one or the other can no longer win the title. If you don't want to do that then follow the Ferrari model of the Schumacher years and hire a clear number 1 and a clear number 2.

[henners88]

Why then didn't the 'cookie crumble that way' last year in Malaysia. Nico was faster, Lewis' tyres were shot yet 'still I rise' boy had no trouble accepting that particular piece of team orders.
I wouldn't say Lewis had no trouble accepting the team orders in Malaysia 2013. He was visibly dismayed on the podium as we all saw and made clear he didn't like the concept of team orders. He suggested Nico should have been on the third step and not him. I know there wasn't a title fight last year between these two and there was perhaps a different mindset but the principle is largely the same. :)

[Bagwan]

He did prevent the team getting a better overall result (2nd and 4th probably, 1st and 4th maybe an outside chance). But what I take issue with is your suggestion that failing to heed team orders prevented a "fair fight". Surely a race in which no driver benefits from team orders has to be fairer than a race in which one driver benefits from team orders?

If one characterizes it as team orders , it seems to have a negative tone , but if one calls it as hindering one's team mate , it's different , isn't it ?
Nico was told he'd be let by . That explains his questions .

The team was trying to secure the best results it could .
Had both cars had better tires at the end , we would have seen that fair fight .
And that fair fight would likely have been for better positions for both cars .

So , what I'm saying is that , despite it seeming like Lewis was going to be scuttled by letting his team mate past , they were setting up a fair fight at the finish .

[Bagwan]

Had Lewis let Nico by, even if they had secured a 1st and 2nd, Lewis would have given his team mate more points on a plate. Nico was screwed by the SC, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. It's bad luck, just like brake failures and cars catching fire in qualifying.

They deal with it and most of the time they don't have title rivals gifting them points.

So , Henners , ol' buddy , you don't think Lewis could have held him off at the end for a few more laps , even with better shaped tires , having not battled his team mate earlier ?
I think it would have been an epic battle that Lewis might have won .

[truefan72]

first of all i have that particular poster on my ignore list so i only see his post via others quotes.

Now to malaysia of last year. Henners was right, Hamilton was not too happy about that situation and understood Nico's anguish.
However the situation was very different and the consequences equally as different. It did not matter at that point of hamilton or rosberg finished ahead of each other. they were always going to be 3 and 4.
Rosberg' legitimate gripe was losing out on the podium spot, but from the team's perspective, both cars were going to finish where they are so they figured to let them hold station.

Vettel/Webber was a whole different level. and it was not so much team orders that he disobeyed because his race was being compromised, or he could finish higher ( which he could have if they were both racing and he made a proper pass), but more about the entire thing went down. they were both told to turn their engine down and finish as is, since Webber had pretty much dominated the race and was in total control so the team really didn't want any fireworks in the last few laps. Webber turned his engine down and vettel was asked to do the same. Vettel understood fully that webber turned his engine down, and understood completely that webber was not going to expect any challenge from the back. so even as he was sneaking up to him, he knew that everyone was just thinking that he would play around a bit and get close to have a nice finish with both cars in one photo shot. Instead he turned his engine up and passed a bewildered webber, and got nothing more than a "no dessert for you" letting off by his team. It was beyond egregious, and if the team decided to sit him for a race i don't think anyone let alone vettel would/could complain. But of course they did not and that in it of itself was pretty telling about how the team sees both drivers and horner's uselessness as a team boss.

Vettel got lambasted for his callousness, and dirty trick he used to gain and advantage, steal a victory from his teammate who could not defend himself. and disobeying a team directive. Which could have ended in tears as webber tried to make a comeback.
incidentally it is the same Vettel I applauded for initially telling his team "tough luck" when they asked him to compromise his race to let ricciardo thru.

so comparing the malaysia 2013 to budapest 2014 is rather hollow without context.
It is like arguing that a child killer is equally as guilty as a homeless man stealing an apple off a fruit stand. Yes both are crimes, but context matters

[jens]

If we are looking for an (almost) identical situation, Vettel-Ricciardo "Tough luck" in China and Hamilton-Rosberg in Hungary are comparable.

If we try to include Malaysia 2013 into it, then what unites Hamilton now and Vettel back then is that both drivers had/have a World Championship at stake and from this perspective the call didn't make sense to them - they wanted to maximize their personal points total.

From teams' perspective Mercedes' Hungary call didn't make much sense, because they are far in front in WCC and are in danger of creating rumours about favouring a driver, when in fact only those two are still left in the fight. However, Mercedes seems determined to just win as many races as they can and maximize their race total regardless of championship - if that makes sense. For drivers and the public doesn't seem convincing.

From teams' point of view Malaysia 2013 team order made more sense, because Red Bull wanted to stop drivers battling on the last stint and secure a 1-2 without crashing. Vettel took a risk in denying the call. They didn't crash, Vettel won the race and later the title and it looks in the grand scheme of things not much went wrong, but at the time it was a gamble both in racing and reputation situations.

[jens]

they were both told to turn their engine down and finish as is, since Webber had pretty much dominated the race and was in total control so the team really didn't want any fireworks in the last few laps. Webber turned his engine down and vettel was asked to do the same. Vettel understood fully that webber turned his engine down, and understood completely that webber was not going to expect any challenge from the back. so even as he was sneaking up to him, he knew that everyone was just thinking that he would play around a bit and get close to have a nice finish with both cars in one photo shot. Instead he turned his engine up and passed a bewildered webber, and got nothing more than a "no dessert for you" letting off by his team. It was beyond egregious, and if the team decided to sit him for a race i don't think anyone let alone vettel would/could complain. But of course they did not and that in it of itself was pretty telling about how the team sees both drivers and horner's uselessness as a team boss.


Err... I think you may "overthink" in regards to what Vettel was thinking at that time. You are like writing an evil story here.:D I very much doubt Vettel "stealing" a win from Webber was something similar we could see in the movies - "Now he is defenseless, and now I will kill the poor bastard and demolish him HAHAHA."

In the heat of action in a sporting contest you don't think so much about others, but yourself - "Hey, I am second. But I don't want to finish second. I have speed to fight for the win. I need to win for the world championship." And that's why he went for it. He may not even have thought or cared at the time whether the engine was turned down, or Webber's engine was turned down. After all, you don't know if your rivals' engine is turned down - you don't see it! You only know your own's. He was close behind, felt he could fight for the lead, and went for it.

[truefan72]

Err... I think you may "overthink" in regards to what Vettel was thinking at that time. You are like writing an evil story here.:D I very much doubt Vettel "stealing" a win from Webber was something similar we could see in the movies - "Now he is defenseless, and now I will kill the poor bastard and demolish him HAHAHA."

In the heat of action in a sporting contest you don't think so much about others, but yourself - "Hey, I am second. But I don't want to finish second. I have speed to fight for the win. I need to win for the world championship." And that's why he went for it. He may not even have thought or cared at the time whether the engine was turned down, or Webber's engine was turned down. After all, you don't know if your rivals' engine is turned down - you don't see it! You only know your own's. He was close behind, felt he could fight for the lead, and went for it.

Jens

that is one way of looking at it.
a very modest and might i say, wishful way.

Vettel knew exactly what he was doing and what was being told to both drivers.
he knew the situation and decided to take advantage in a very dishonorable way.
the only reason he was close behind was because webber turned down his engine accordingly and Vettel did not

[jens]

the only reason he was close behind was because webber turned down his engine accordingly and Vettel did not

I don't remember that precisely, but wasn't Vettel right at the tail of Webber right after the final pitstop? Also I remember somewhere in mid-race Vettel was told "not to attack" Webber, and he obeyed at the time. But he didn't want to obey the second time in the end.