Mercedes W196 and the Third Car

[pcal226]

I had two random questions about the history of F1 regulations that I was hoping you guys could help me answer:

1.) First was about the Mercedes W196 "Type Monza" that raced in the mid-50's. As far as I know it was the only car to ever race in F1 with enclosed wheels. I was wondering if anyone knows whether or not there ever were other F1 cars with enclosed wheels. More importantly, I was wondering if anyone knew when open-wheeled cars became mandatory in F1. I had always assumed that open-wheeled cars was one of the basic regulations that had always existed in F1, but the W196 seems to contradict this.

2.) My second question was about third cars in F1. I know a few years ago Ferrari was talking about bringing third car entries back into F1. I was wondering when exactly third cars were banned in the first place. Like what year? I was also wondering what the deal with third cars was when they were legal. Were they eligible for manufacturers points or not? And if so, why didn't more teams enter them? Were teams limited to three cars or could they enter as many as they wanted (that managed to qualify of course)?

I've looked everywhere I could on the internet and here in the States books on F1 history are scarce. Any help would be great. Thanks.

[D-Type]

(1) Streamlining
Up to 1960 all enclosed bodies were permitted in Formula 1 and Formula 2 and over the years several appeared, not just the W196..

Mercedes W196 streamliner. There was not a "Type Monza" as such. Mercedes developed several variants of both streamliner and open wheeler with different wheelbases, inboard or outboard front brakes etc. to suit different tracks but they ended up running a mixture of types at each race, including streamliners and open-wheelers in the same race. In 1955 they tested at Monza a couple of months before the GP to decide what was best for the combined circuit. Then in the meantime the organisers resurfaced the track and when they came for practice they found the cars were no longer optimised. A panic ensued to raid the parts store at Stuttgart to quickly build up new cars (if I remember correctly they wanted medium wheelbase cars). All 4 cars that ran were different - I can't remember what the precise differences were. I suspect that "Type Monza" comes from a model maker's description, meaning "as raced at Monza"

Connaught The 1954 Connaught had a streamlined all-enclosed body. The team found it was costly to repair in the event of a minor accident. They also found that if the the one-piece body was off the car it was difficult to handle in the slightest and vulnerable to damage. They therefore developed a conventional open wheeled car. After Tony Brooks won the Syracuse Grand Prix this became known as the "Syracuse" model. Had Connaught had the resources of Daimler-Benz behind them, they might well have persevered with the streamliner.

Reims Specials
The Reims circuit with its long straights led to teams trying cars with streamlined bodies for the one race. Because it was just for one race, these were not fully developed and unsuccessful.

Maserati 250F This appeared at the 1956 French GP at Reims. It had a full width nose and sponsons between the wheels but the tops of the wheels were exposed. The throttle mechanism fouled the bodyworkso the throttle could not be opened fully, which rather defeated the objective. I don't think it raced. It was also tried at Monza and again I don't think it raced

Lancia-Ferrari This also appeared at Reims in 1956. It was similar to the Maserati except that the rear wheels were fully enclosed. It practised but didn't race

Vanwall A streamlined Vanwall appeared at the non-Championship Reims GP in 1957. The drivers, Roy Salvadori and Stuart Lewis-Evans were replacing regular drivers Stirling Moss and Tony Brooks who were not available. They had their hands full getting familiar with the Vanwall and when the streamliner had teething troubles it was put aside and they concentrated on the regular cars.

Cooper They made half-heated efforts with bolt-on panels in 1957 and a mix of Bobtail and Monaco sports car panels in 1960. Neither was particularly effective, the latter car exhibiting significant 'lift' on the straights. So they ran cars with regular bodies in the race on both occasions.
In 1955 Jack Brabham ran a car based on the 'Bobtail' sports car but with a rear-mounted Bristol engine. The only World Championship GP it ran in was the British GP. He also raced it in some minor F1 races and won the formule libre Australian Grand Prix.

Sports cars
In 1952-53 the World Championship was run for Formula 2 (2 litre) cars. German BMW-based specials, AFN and Veritas sports cars ran in some races, stripped of lights, passenger seats, spare wheels and other road equipment. In minor races several of the cars might be sports cars which fitted the capacity limits.

(2) Two man teams
This is difficult to answer as things have changed significantly over the 65 years of the World Championship.
In the fifties and sixties there was no limit on the number of cars a team could enter. The situation is further confused by the numerous private entries in addition to the 'works' cars. All cars with the same chassis/engine combination qualified for manufacturers' championship points, e.g. all Cooper-Climaxes could score points, but a Cooper-Maserati was considered to be a different make. But only the highest placed car of a make scored points. e.g. when Ferrari finished 1-2-3-4 in the 1961 British GP they only scored winner's points while the 5th placed Porsche scored 5th place points.
Following the success of Cooper with a 2 driver team in 1960 (albeit backed up by several privately entered cars) several teams moved towards a 2 driver format and this became the norm, although not mandated.
As FOCA gained more influence, they moved towards two way contracts - they guaranteed a full field to all race organisers and in turn guaranteed a full season to the teams. Eventually a two-car team was mandated in the late seventies to mid eighties - I'm not sure exactly when. At that time there were more team cars than start places so the lesser teams had to qualify (and at one time even pre-qualify) so top (or any) teams were not permitted to run a third car as it would displace one of the regular back of the field runners and prevent them earning start or prize money.
Recently as the number of teams has dwindled, there have been moves afoot to reintroduce third drivers to ensure a full 22 car field at all races.

If you want clarification on any points, just ask and one of us should be able to answer.

[FAL]

Everywhere on the internet? - except a very recent thread on here?

[D-Type]

Everywhere on the internet? - except a very recent thread on here?
Thanks FAL. I knew I had responded to a similar query but thought it was on another forum as a search for "W196" didn't turn it up. The earlier thread is here: http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?33431-Mercedes-W196.

Once I get my moderator functions restored I will merge the two threads (if I remember)

[pcal226]

Thanks for the info. Especially about the Mercedes. I'd seen videos of the Silver Arrows and always just assumed they were the only ones. Do you happen to know why the streamlined bodies were banned after 1960? Was it a safety issue, or just a way to differentiate them from sports cars?

Now that you mention it, I guess I knew that cars entered by privateers were eligible to score manufacturer points so I guess it only makes sense that third cars on factory teams would be as well. Still, I didn't know that only the top scorers were counted so thanks for that, it explains a lot. I'd still be interested to know what the exact years were in which privateers and third cars were banned if you ever come across that info.

I apologize for not searching through the forum thoroughly enough to see if my questions had been answered. When I said I looked "everywhere" I meant I googled it and wasn't able to come up with anything. Thanks for your help.

[D28]

You're right, this is not an easy question to answer. I believe the first Concord agreement arranged by Ecclestone and the organizers may have dealt with this issue. That was 1981, and a lot of the details were confidential. By looking at the entry lists we can say for sure 1977 included some 3 car entries. Both McLaren and Ferrari entered a 3rd car for Gilles Villeneuve in 1977; this prompted Lauda to leave Ferrari at Mosport, having clinched his 2nd Drivers title. I see 3 Lotus entries as late as the Dutch GP 1980 for Andretti, de Angelis and Mansell. Assuming all three are Team Lotus, this seems to be the last example of a 3 car attack. So my guess is the 1981 Concord agreement sealed a practice that was dying out anyway.

As for streamlining after 1960, I don't think it was banned so much as it had just not proved quicker; the examples D-type listed are from the 1950s. I believe faired in front wheels would have been permissible in the 1961 formula, but those cars had only 1.5 L engines and extra weight would be a factor. Also areodynamics, front lift were poorly understood concepts at the time.
If I see anything more conclusive I will post it.

[D28]

OK here is further evidence that 1981 was the year teams were limited to 2 cars. See this table for 1980
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Formula_One_season
compare to the same for 1981
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Formula_One_season

If you study the 81 table for Drivers and constructors you can see each team assigned numbers for 2 official cars, Tyrrell has #3 and #4 split among 4 different drivers depending on the race. The 80 table has 3 different numbers for three cars depending on how they entered them.

In 1980 Team Essex Lotus did enter # 43 for Mansell in 3 races, 1 he failed to qualify so they had 3 cars in 2 races. Austrian and Dutch GPs.

A statement at the top of 1981 table describes the new FIA Formula One World Championship, I am satisfied that is when the change was made.
I have found these Wiki tables accurate cross referenced with other sources.Hope this helps.

[inimitablestoo]

The last time a team entered three cars for a single Grand Prix was in 1985, when Renault added a car for Francois Hesnault, but strictly speaking it was a non-competitive entry (and not just because the underachieving Hesnault was driving). It was instead an onboard camera car, the first time such a thing had been seen in a Grand Prix.

Prior to that, Renault had also been the last team to run three cars competitively in one race, when a third car was added for Philippe Streiff at the 1984 finale in Portugal. But these were very much one-offs.

I do also remember that in 1993, after a 1992 season in which entries had tumbled from 32 (enough to require pre-qualifying) to 26 (just enough to make a full grid), the FIA allowed any team which lodged an application pre-season to enter a third car if the grid fell below 26 at any point. McLaren and Ligier were the only teams which did so but, when the grid did fall to 24 for the final two races, the third entries seemed to be forgotten. Michael Andretti had by this point left McLaren and Mika Hakkinen had been promoted in his place, so presumably they weren't that bothered, but I'm sure Ligier had intended to run Eric Bernard (still recuperating from an injury sustained at the '91 Japanese GP) and, for whatever reason, didn't. It would make sense that they were planning to run a third car, given the "abstract" Gitanes livery that appeared on Martin Brundle's car at the final two races that year, which presumably would have been run on the extra entry had it appeared. If anyone can fill in the details there, I'd be interested to know the full story.

[D-Type]

The 1961 Formula 1 regulations did ban all enveloping bodies. A wide nose and side sponsons were allowable, but not fairing in the wheels. The ban has been carried forward into every subsequent set of Formula 1 regulations.

I don't know the reasoning behind the ban. I suspect that it came about because stripped sports cars often ran in the 1500cc Formula 2 races, particularly the minor ones and in some minor non-Championship Formula 1 races. Possibly the FIA felt that they did not want sports cars running in races for cars complying with their premier formula. Another possible reason was that the 1961 regulations introduced a minimum weight, presumably on safety grounds to eliminate some of the flimsier cars, and as an all-enveloping body is potentially heavier there would be scope for reducing the weight and strength of the chassis and still meeting the minimum weight.

[D28]

The last time a team entered three cars for a single Grand Prix was in 1985, when Renault added a car for Francois Hesnault, but strictly speaking it was a non-competitive entry (and not just because the underachieving Hesnault was driving). It was instead an onboard camera car, the first time such a thing had been seen in a Grand Prix.

Very interesting. Further looking at the wiki tables confirms 4 GPs entered for Hesnault and 1 where he DNQ. Also confirmed is the 1 off for Streiff. this raises the question, if the general rules were set in 1981, why was an exception made for Renault? Or were they the only team interested in an extra car, obviously it did them no good and perhaps the others realized the returns weren't worth the effort?

[D28]

The 1961 Formula 1 regulations did ban all enveloping bodies. A wide nose and side sponsons were allowable, but not fairing in the wheels. The ban has been carried forward into every subsequent set of Formula 1 regulations.
Thanks, it was the wide nose I was thinking of when I mentioned fairing of front wheels, sorry wrong term.

[D-Type]

It's difficult to put some of these ideas into words without a picture - even the FIA gave up trying and introduced diagrams in the 'Yellow book' to explain bodywork rules.

But Chapman, Penske, Brawn etc made their reputations finding, shall we say, 'creative' interpretations of some rules.

[pcal226]

Thanks for all the great info. To somewhat answer my own question about whether teams were limited to 3 cars, I did find at least one example of a team entering 4. The March works team entered 4 cars into the 1971 Italian Prix, although one of them was using an Alfa Romeo engine (the other three were Fords), so I don't know if that counts.

[D-Type]

I'm pretty sure that D28 has it right with 1981 when the Concorde Agreement and the FIA Formula 1 World Drivers' Championship came in.

[D28]

Thanks for all the great info. To somewhat answer my own question about whether teams were limited to 3 cars, I did find at least one example of a team entering 4. The March works team entered 4 cars into the 1971 Italian Prix, although one of them was using an Alfa Romeo engine (the other three were Fords), so I don't know if that counts.

Prior to 1981 there are many examples of 4 cars entered, but not necessarily by the works team. The 1961 French GP for example, Baghetti's Ferrari was entered by Scuderia Sant'Amboeus and won after the 3 works Ferraris dropped out.
The situation was further complicated by teams like Cooper and March selling cars to private entrants. Also a number of teams brought extra cars along to certain races to be leased to a local driver and entered under a different name. McLaren leased cars to Roger Penske for Mark Donohuge in US and Canada on occasion.

The 1971 Italian GP is hard to figure out without an official entry list, but I am guessing STP March entered March-Fords for Peterson and Galli and the March-Alfa for de Adamich. The Pescarolo March-Ford was a Frank Williams private customer car. The JP Jarrier March-Ford was entered by Shell Arnold Team, the Mike Beuttler March-Ford appears to have been entered by Clark-Morduant-Guthrie Racing. One can only guess at the business details of the last 2, and who actually owned the cars.
So there was quite a bit of flexibility in entrants in the early years. A very good situation in my view, but don't let us get started on that!

[D-Type]

That sounds right for the 1971 Italian GP: Steve Small has Galli entered by STP March, Peterson by STP March Racing Team, and de Adamich by STP-March. But Hayhoe and Holland only refer to the STP March Racing Team, without the variants in the name, for the season. I suspect these were all the 'works' March Team.

[Rollo]

I'm pretty sure that D28 has it right with 1981 when the Concorde Agreement and the FIA Formula 1 World Drivers' Championship came in.

Is this where I show my nerdiness?

In the 1984 Portugese GP, Renault entered three cars.
15 - Patrick Tambay - finished 7th
16 - Derek Warwick - retired Lap 51 gearbox
33 - Philippe Streiff - retired Lap 48 transmission

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VEjCFVO5NfY/UAns3gxjprI/AAAAAAAAF_M/-RfC2Ror6ZM/s640/gp_portugal_1984_003.JPG

I'm pretty sure that that may have been the last. I can't think of anything beyond that.

[D28]

Is this where I show my nerdiness?

In the 1984 Portugese GP, Renault entered three cars.
15 - Patrick Tambay - finished 7th
16 - Derek Warwick - retired Lap 51 gearbox
33 - Philippe Streiff - retired Lap 48 transmission

Right see the post by inimitablestoo above. Last time was 1885 for Renault.

[pcal226]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_Grand_Prix_results

It's wikipedia so it might not be accurate but this is where I got my info for the '71 Italian Grand Prix. It lists all the privately entered March cars separately. According to this there were 4 works cars (Peterson, de Adamich, Galli and Jarier), and 2 private entries (Beuttler for Clarke-Mordaunt-Guthrie Racing and Pescarolo for Frank Williams Racing Cars).

But ya as for when 3rd cars were disallowed, everything seems to point to the '81 Concorde Agreement except for that Renault in '84. It doesn't seem to make any sense!

[D-Type]

That's the trouble with Wikipedia.

Jarier was entered by the Shell Arnold team who hired the ex-Hubert Hahne March 701. Emphatically not a works car

[D28]

That's the trouble with Wikipedia.

Jarier was entered by the Shell Arnold team who hired the ex-Hubert Hahne March 701. Emphatically not a works car

I concur with that. Not much point in trying to field 4 works cars, anyway the latest were March 711s

[inimitablestoo]

Right see the post by inimitablestoo above. Last time was 1885 for Renault.
Thanks for the credit; seems pretty churlish to point out you're 100 years out, but that's what I do :D

What I can't add is any reason for the one-off three-car situations. Nor, for that matter, why AGS (in 1986) and Coloni (in 1987) were allowed to do just a couple of late-season races apiece (beyond gaining consent from their competitors). Nor, indeed, why single-car teams were still allowed until at least 1991 (excluding understandable one-off situations such as post-Imola 1994 for Williams and Simtek). All of this was before I started following the sport, so trying to piece it all together is fascinating, if frustrating.

[pcal226]

I concur with that. Not much point in trying to field 4 works cars, anyway the latest were March 711s

Sorry to restart an old thread, but since that one seemed to be wrong, I think I found another example of 4 works cars. In 1961 Ferrari entered 4 works cars on a couple occasions. Phil Hill, Wolfgang von Trips and Richie Ginther drove every race (except the US GP which Ferrari didn't attend). That's three cars. Belgian Olivier Gendebien was entered by the Scuderia at the Belgian Grand Prix (his car was painted Yellow, the Belgian racing colors, for his home GP, but it was still a works car). He finished 4th. Belgian Willy Mairesse was entered in the German GP. He retired. And finally, Mexican Ricardo Rodriguez was entered in the Italian GP. He also retired. So in Belgium, Germany and Italy there were 4 works cars on the track for Ferrari. It says so on wikipedia (I know it can be unreliable) and I confirmed it when I read "The Limit" by Michael Cannell (a great book btw - I highly recommend it).

[Don Capps]

As several have pointed out, teams entering more than two cars for an event was a frequent occurrence up until the 1980's. With the passage of time and the myriad changes to how the Formula 1 world now operates, what now seem to be anomalies were essentially legislated out of existence for reasons that were generally due to standardizing the package or shutting the door or the whims of those in power. With the advent of both a new championship (yes, this is true, despite the usual refusal to acknowledge it) and the Concorde Agreement in 1981, FIA/FISA and FOCA developed a package for the series which stipulated a guarantee of X number of cars for an event, with provisos for exceptions as necessary. With only a few exceptions, teams had been whittled down to entering two cars for an event years before the Concorde Agreement. I think that it was one of the later Concorde Agreements that made the hard and fast rule regarding two car teams. Somewhere in my files I think I still have a copy of the original 1981 Concorde Agreement, but given both my now near-total lack of interest in F1 as well as nary a clue where I put it, rather sure that it was not the one that completely "outlawed" the entry of more two cars per team, that deed being done in the one that followed it.

If I were motivated to do so -- and I am not by any means, I am sure that I could come up a listing of entries of teams entering three or more car for an event. Part of the "fun" dealing with the Maserati 250F was sorting out the entry of the cars, it often being enough to baffle even the best of us at times. Fun fact is that Cooper and Lotus often entered three cars, Way Back in the Day, along with the Continental teams.

Funny how the minions at Wiki steal information all the time and still screw it up....