The Mercedes advantage

[Bagwan]

Just read a piece on the Sky page that explained where Merc has a fundamental advantage with the basic engine set up .

They've positioned the turbo and compressor units at opposite ends , connected by a shaft , putting the intake into naturally cooler air , by virtue of being a distance from the red hot exhaust , where the turbo takes it's power .

By doing so , it moves the engine forward , improving balance , and the intercoolers can be smaller because the intake air starts out cooler , and this allows for smaller sidepods to house them , which improves packaging , and therefore , aero as well .

With a Merc in the back , you have a distinct advantage .

Anyone know if the turbo and compressor are inside the sealed portion of specs completely ?
Could any of the others get this done ?

[AndyL]

Just read a piece on the Sky page that explained where Merc has a fundamental advantage with the basic engine set up .

They've positioned the turbo and compressor units at opposite ends , connected by a shaft , putting the intake into naturally cooler air , by virtue of being a distance from the red hot exhaust , where the turbo takes it's power .

By doing so , it moves the engine forward , improving balance , and the intercoolers can be smaller because the intake air starts out cooler , and this allows for smaller sidepods to house them , which improves packaging , and therefore , aero as well .

With a Merc in the back , you have a distinct advantage .

Anyone know if the turbo and compressor are inside the sealed portion of specs completely ?
Could any of the others get this done ?

Not until next year.

[Bagwan]

Well then , it sucks to be non-Merc this year , to be sure .

It kinda sucks to be us as well , if they are just going to run away with it .

Is Luca on the phone with Detrich right now ?

[steveaki13]

If that's the case, we need to hope Nico and Lewis share the wins.

It could still be fun if a Senna v Prost McLaren battle happens. They won most races, but the title fights were epic.

[Mark]

If that's the case, we need to hope Nico and Lewis share the wins.

It could still be fun if a Senna v Prost McLaren battle happens. They won most races, but the title fights were epic.

It won't be Senna vs Prost but we've seen some decent seasons when the battle has been between team mates. But it's not bad f you're a Hamilton fan ;)

However I wouldn't hand Merc the championship just yet. Don't put it past Newey pulling something out of the bag, that's what he's best at.

[steveaki13]

It won't be Senna vs Prost but we've seen some decent seasons when the battle has been between team mates. But it's not bad f you're a Hamilton fan ;)

However I wouldn't hand Merc the championship just yet. Don't put it past Newey pulling something out of the bag, that's what he's best at.

I agree with you Mark. It can still be a decent season, if Red Bull (the most likely) do what they did last season and improve they could still yet challenge for a title.

Also I guess I was just pointing out you could still see a good championship if the two Mercedes drivers are actually racing for it. No way will it be a Senna v Prost, but that's an example of exciting teammate championship rather than Schumi v Barrichello or Vettel v Webber.

Early days anyway. Lets wait and see.

[steveaki13]

It became even more clear at this track today that Mercedes could have as much as 1.5 seconds advantage over the race distance.

Although its probably only about a second if Red Bull are 3rd and 4th as they appear to be the second best car now.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It kinda sucks to be us as well , if they are just going to run away with it .

Not really, the HAM fans will wank their testicles dry over it. they pulled out 25 seconds over the last 10 laps. Not even RB ever had that much of an advantage. They can stand on their heads, sing 'La Paloma' driving around one-handed and they will still win.

[steveaki13]

Not really, the HAM fans will wank their testicles dry over it. they pulled out 25 seconds over the last 10 laps. Not even RB ever had that much of an advantage. They can stand on their heads, sing 'La Paloma' driving around one-handed and they will still win.


Why are you so obsessed with Hamilton fans and there love of domination :confused:
You kept telling us how we should all appreciate Vettels domination.

Who are all these Hamilton fans who want him to lap the field each race? :p

[dj_bytedisaster]

Why are you so obsessed with Hamilton fans and there love of domination :confused:
You kept telling us how we should all appreciate Vettels domination.

Who are all these Hamilton fans who want him to lap the field each race? :p

I've never been a fan of VET domination. In fact his 3rd in Malaysia this year was much more 'sastisfying' than any of his wins last year. Taking a car that had no DRS for 1/3 of the race and engine problems towards the end today to 6th was also much more of an achievement than just beating that useless hack he had for a team mate last year. I just detest all the people, who last year screamed bloody murder about RB having the best car and now are suddenly perfectly happy with a Merc car that is 2.5 seconds faster than anyone else (an advantage that RB never had btw), just because someone else is piloting it.

[steveaki13]

now are suddenly perfectly happy with a Merc car that is 2.5 seconds faster than anyone else (an advantage that RB never had btw), just because someone else is piloting it.

Apart from maybe just one poster, who are all these people happy with domination? I mean I was happy to see a great race by the two Mercedes today, but I am sad no one is anywhere near them.

Are you just try to provoke one member into a war of words? Cause I have seen maybe the second biggest Hamilton fan on here, say he would rather see another winner if Hamilton keeps winning with these levels of domination.

[jens]

It became even more clear at this track today that Mercedes could have as much as 1.5 seconds advantage over the race distance.

Although its probably only about a second if Red Bull are 3rd and 4th as they appear to be the second best car now.

Steve, you know what I find interesting.

I remember somewhere last year you created a thread, where you asked a question. Why in this modern era do we see so much domination? The Ferrari-Schumacher era, the Red Bull-Vettel era. You asked, how can it be that in such professional sport nowadays we have teams that are well above everyone else.

And there you go. 2014. New season. And another domination. Mercedes-Benz 2 seconds per lap faster than anybody else, it is reminiscent of the legendary Williams FW14.

Modern F1 is doomed by domination and we can't do anything about it. Natural thing of the sport, particularly the modern sport.:) Far cry from the 1980s, when there was also a turbo competition, but many teams-manufacturers were actually close. Be it the Renault, Ferrari, Honda, TAG Porsche, BMW turbo - all could challenge for the championship in different years. But now Mercedes just demolishes everyone and we have got engine freeze...

In late 2000s, when we had some close title battles, I thought the Ferraris of 2002 and 2004 were a thing of past and yesteryears.

But the second half of 2013 by Red Bull and now this car by Mercedes are one of the most dominant F1 cars I have ever seen. Season has changed, but some story has remained the same.

[Mekola]

They built the best turbo engine, hence its dominance. That's why (at least on the first rounds of the season) the Merc-engined teams will have an advantage.

[andyone]

He he personally im happy. Happy happy let Hamilton win this year. Next year RB will be back for sure. Or Renault to change the engine layout.. Let Ham dominate. Merc are going to take many poles last year with a slow car they got many poles. I can imagine this year with a fast car :p:eek:

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[steveaki13]

Steve, you know what I find interesting.

I remember somewhere last year you created a thread, where you asked a question. Why in this modern era do we see so much domination? The Ferrari-Schumacher era, the Red Bull-Vettel era. You asked, how can it be that in such professional sport nowadays we have teams that are well above everyone else.

And there you go. 2014. New season. And another domination. Mercedes-Benz 2 seconds per lap faster than anybody else, it is reminiscent of the legendary Williams FW14.

Modern F1 is doomed by domination and we can't do anything about it. Natural thing of the sport, particularly the modern sport.:) Far cry from the 1980s, when there was also a turbo competition, but many teams-manufacturers were actually close. Be it the Renault, Ferrari, Honda, TAG Porsche, BMW turbo - all could challenge for the championship in different years. But now Mercedes just demolishes everyone and we have got engine freeze...

So I did. Glad someone takes notice of the rubbish I post. :p

Its true though. Another example of it coming true.

The point I made was despite the whole field being within 3.5-4 seconds (closer than most of F1 history which was anything from 6 to 10 seconds apart) we seem to have more one team domination than ever.

Which was the last season where we had two teams with completely similar cars and the same time. 2009 had Brawn dominant then Red Bull.

I guess it was 2007 & 2008 when McLaren and Ferrari were even.

Before that 2006 was close, before that though it was largely Renault in 05 at times and McLaren at others (never for the whole season) Then Ferrari for 5 years before that.

Maybe then 1998 & 1999 only thanks to Schumacher.

[Zico]

I've never been a fan of VET domination. In fact his 3rd in Malaysia this year was much more 'sastisfying' than any of his wins last year. Taking a car that had no DRS for 1/3 of the race and engine problems towards the end today to 6th was also much more of an achievement than just beating that useless hack he had for a team mate last year. I just detest all the people, who last year screamed bloody murder about RB having the best car and now are suddenly perfectly happy with a Merc car that is 2.5 seconds faster than anyone else (an advantage that RB never had btw), just because someone else is piloting it.


I was one of these people who hated seeing Vettel dominate these last few years in a dominant car...1 horse race.
I also hate to see this same (or higher) level of domination that we have witnessed from Mercedes thus far by Mercedes and would much prefer to see the big 3-4 teams evenly matched but judging by todays race it seems that we could have a 2 way fight for the WDC this year at least.

Much kudos to Merc for allowing both drivers to race each for the win right to the end, something we haven't had the privelage of seeing for far too long, here' hoping they allow it to continue until one of the two drivers has it sewn up mathematically, great stuff!

[The Black Knight]

Apart from maybe just one poster, who are all these people happy with domination? I mean I was happy to see a great race by the two Mercedes today, but I am sad no one is anywhere near them.

Are you just try to provoke one member into a war of words? Cause I have seen maybe the second biggest Hamilton fan on here, say he would rather see another winner if Hamilton keeps winning with these levels of domination.

I think everyone knows here that I am a big Hamilton fan but I honestly don't mind seeing one team dominate when you have two drivers fighting fairly for position like we saw today. That's the excitement of F1 that I love - seeing drivers race each other. The great thing about this year is that tires don't appear to be such a deciding influence as they have been over previous years. I was really on the verge of not watching F1 anymore last year because it was all about tire management. In fact I missed the last few races and just watched the highlights for probably the first time in 10 years. This year is different and we see drivers pushing each other to the limit. I love that, whether it be with the two Mercs, or two Ferraris. That is the kind of racing I want to see in F1, so I've no issue with this kind of domination as long as that kind of racing continues. Sometimes you can't have it the way you want, but this year F1 has got what it needed after Vettel's 9 race wins in a row last year - an injection of competition :)

[steveaki13]

I think that is a large amount of it. With Ferrari and Red Bull domination there have mostly only been one driver winning or going for the win. Partly through team design and maybe also because second drivers in each case were not quite good enough.

Where as this domination will be different "IF" "IF" Rosberg can race Hamilton all the way for the Championship.

That's the only way a teams dominance doesn't ruin F1. If both drivers are close and race for the title.

That's why McLaren 1988/1989 is remembered more fondly as F1 domination that Williams 1992/93 or Ferrari 2001-2004 and Red Bull 2010-2013

[steveaki13]

I think everyone knows here that I am a big Hamilton fan but I honestly don't mind seeing one team dominate when you have two drivers fighting fairly for position like we saw today. That's the excitement of F1 that I love - seeing drivers race each other. The great thing about this year is that tires don't appear to be such a deciding influence as they have been over previous years. I was really on the verge of not watching F1 anymore last year because it was all about tire management. In fact I missed the last few races and just watched the highlights for probably the first time in 10 years. This year is different and we see drivers pushing each other to the limit. I love that, whether it be with the two Mercs, or two Ferraris. That is the kind of racing I want to see in F1, so I've no issue with this kind of domination as long as that kind of racing continues. Sometimes you can't have it the way you want, but this year F1 has got what it needed after Vettel's 9 race wins in a row last year - an injection of competition :)

I agree on the whole.

The only thing I might not be sure about is, the after Vettels 9 wins.

We could potentially see Lewis win 7 in row from now to make it 9. If Nico cant match Lewis. (Unlikely as that is that Nico wont win one along the line)

[SGWilko]

Not really, the HAM fans will wank their testicles dry over it. they pulled out 25 seconds over the last 10 laps. Not even RB ever had that much of an advantage. They can stand on their heads, sing 'La Paloma' driving around one-handed and they will still win.

I find drying my 'nads with a towel a lot easier if they are wet.

[steveaki13]

I was thinking about Mercedes dominance and wondering how it would go over the next 3 or 4 races.

China is next and I assume it will be business as usual especially with the long straights at the start finish line and the back straight.

Then comes Spain, where all the times can introduce new aspects to the cars. Does anyone think Red Bull will be able to close in on Mercedes then or will Mercedes still have a decent advantage?

Then Monaco and around the streets is the big one. It clearly has not straights and surely Mercedes advanatage wont be big there? If its as big then they could lap most of the field.

Then we move to Canada and again I would fancy Mercedes to be in front.

Much beyond that who knows what can happen.

[henners88]

I've never been a fan of VET domination. In fact his 3rd in Malaysia this year was much more 'sastisfying' than any of his wins last year. Taking a car that had no DRS for 1/3 of the race and engine problems towards the end today to 6th was also much more of an achievement than just beating that useless hack he had for a team mate last year. I just detest all the people, who last year screamed bloody murder about RB having the best car and now are suddenly perfectly happy with a Merc car that is 2.5 seconds faster than anyone else (an advantage that RB never had btw), just because someone else is piloting it.
Where are all these Hamilton fans that you talk of though?
To me it seems you are venting your frustration in the hope it will stir up an argument and these fans will come out of the woodwork. I'm a Hamilton fan and made it very clear I don't want to see total domination by Mercedes and others have too. You were part of the the discussions after Malaysia so you must have ignored most of it. I've seen Vettel fans doing the same thing on other forums and they are getting the exact same response. Some Hamilton fans are enjoying see him win and seeing him in a good car, so what? As long as it doesn't last 4 years I think it is far too early to start arguing over what he said nah nah nah nah and all that. Come on enjoy it.

I thought yesterday was a good race and there is no crime in that. If Rosberg had won I would have still enjoyed it because it was worth watching. The advantage might be more this year (sadly) but I still hope we don't have pole and cruise victories like we saw in Malaysia. So far 2 of the 3 races have been entertaining. The good thing about F1 is nobody stays at the top forever.

[Mia 01]

As it stands now it is a bit predictable but I gues it up to the other teams to catch up. As for Ferrari I think its not only problem with the sofware but also on the engines hardware parts. The fix could only come for next year.

[Bagwan]

It was a little bit of a "catch-22" for Merc this race .

Because they let them race , they let all know how much faster than the pack they really are .

But , to have ordered stasis , they would have upset a driver , and risked the furor that might have created .

Now that the cat is truly out of the bag on the speed of those things , though , it will inevitably inspire talk of how the championship could be hurt by such dominance , and of how it could be "fixed" .


Speaking of "fixed" , Red Bull and Torro Rosso were running a revised Renault unit , which seemed to help in Bahrain . The other Renault runners will get the new ones next race .

[SGWilko]

It seems that not only have Mercedes thought long and hard in the design phase of the ICE and the ancilliaries to maximise efficient packaging, weight distribution and C 0f G, but they have also used a rail type exhaust manifold which greatly reduces the space a more conventional individual pipe per cylinder - which is less of a power trade-off given the exhaust is primarily being used to produce power (via the turbo) rather than to maximise max power when in a normally aspirated ICE.

They've really put a lot of thought into the whole thing.

The others will catch up, while Mercedes investigates and tests the next big thing!!!

So, right now they have a better balanced car, with the most power and the most efficient MGU-K and MGU-H. They have a good C of G, and they have a less draggy car by virtue of slimmer sidepods.

Job done.

[Doc Austin]

I like Vettel. He's my favorite, but I am glad to see someone different up front for awhile. Even when your guy is winning, domination gets boring.

I also like Hamilton and Rosberg, so the current order is ok for me too. At least it is clear that they will race each other pretty hard, so we have that to look forward to.

Mercedes has the advantage, but I think it is silly to rule out any Adrian Newey car after only three races, especially as well as Ricciardo ran in Melbourne and as well as Vettel ran at Malaysia. That and both cars were in the points yesterday, so both speed and reliability are getting better.

Maybe Mercedes is way ahead, but I also remember how far ahead Ligier was in 1982, and they finished up next to nowhere. Red Bull has a lot of work ahead of them but I think it is far to early to write them off completely.

If nothing else, I think it will be fascinating to see them fight back.

[kfzmeister]

Not really, the HAM fans will wank their testicles dry over it. they pulled out 25 seconds over the last 10 laps. Not even RB ever had that much of an advantage. They can stand on their heads, sing 'La Paloma' driving around one-handed and they will still win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl0KCW-l_rI

[greencroft]

Interesting to think back to when Lewis announced his switch from McLaren to Mercedes. They must have made a big sales pitch to him and with hindsight, Merc must have known then that they had a few technology tricks up their sleeve for when the new regs came in. Was it these that clinched the move for Lewis? Or just the £s? It now looks like inspired timing for him.

[henners88]

Interesting to think back to when Lewis announced his switch from McLaren to Mercedes. They must have made a big sales pitch to him and with hindsight, Merc must have known then that they had a few technology tricks up their sleeve for when the new regs came in. Was it these that clinched the move for Lewis? Or just the £s? It now looks like inspired timing for him.
I think it would have been the assurance they had confidence in their package for 2014. Hamilton always said 2013 would be his settling in year and it was this year that he felt he would reap the benefits.

McLaren reportedly matched the offer Mercedes pledged so I don't think Hamilton went there for money alone. He's a smart guy and has been in the business long enough to know what he wants out of a deal. He could be the richest man on the grid and only be finishing in 5th place each weekend. For a competitive animal like Lewis I highly doubt that would be enough.

[MacFeegle]

Money is the driver here. Not Seb or Lewis.

Renault supply some big cahonas and will demand that they are allowed to amend their engines to fix 'relaibility'. As a consequense, expext the piece of crap French power delivery system to get closer by degrees to the Kraut V2. I bet theyre taking a wander down the Champs Elysees with a pastis in hand as we speak.

The rules say No Changes to engines but Bullshot carries a lot of weight. Bullshot may be more than an energy drink. It may be a powerplant enhancer as well.

[Tazio]

:stareup:Welcome back Tamb', nice disguise! :p:

[easy rider]

Martin Brundle explaining why he feels that Mercedes is so strong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuBB2F6IutQ

[steveaki13]

:stareup:Welcome back Tamb', nice disguise! :p:

:eek:;)

[steveaki13]

Martin Brundle explaining why he feels that Mercedes is so strong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuBB2F6IutQ

Interesting piece. Amazing how simple solutions provide some big gains.

[zako85]

It's not the first or the last time we see a single engine or team domination in F1. That's the way it has been for decades.

[dj_bytedisaster]

:stareup:Welcome back Tamb', nice disguise! :p:

Did Tamb' have such an atrocious spelling? He could be wasted. That might explain it :p

[Tazio]

Or being very clever? :angel:

[N. Jones]

Well then , it sucks to be non-Merc this year , to be sure .

It kinda sucks to be us as well , if they are just going to run away with it .

Is Luca on the phone with Detrich right now ?

Well, one team running away with the titles has also summed up the last three years, the Alonso-Renault era, and the 2000's with Michael.

So... nothing new.

[greencroft]

Interesting to reignite this thread now we are a few races further on and especially in light of Canada.

Maybe the centre of gravity and balance advantages of the Merc's configuartion are actually worth nearly as much as the extra power?

[Tazio]

Not likely (although they probably have the second best chassis) they would not even have gotten into Q2 with the power deficet they had when things went south in Canada. and never would have been able to move forward during the race being 2.5 secs off the pace

[MacFeegle]

:stareup:Welcome back Tamb', nice disguise! :p:

Thank you Mr Tazio.

Mr Tamb must be clever fellow with damn good look also. I accept compliment :)

[jens]

Mercedes will keep a sizable speed advantage till the end of the season. The question is - can anyone even remotely challenge them in 2015? Best bet once again - Red Bull-Renault. But Renault really has to dig deep for that one.