Farage v Clegg - EU debates.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If I could pick one person in politics that I would like to punch in the face the most then it is Nigel Farage.

Who has watched the EU debates between Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage?

Unfortunately the polls suggest that Farage is the 'winner'. This suggests to me that we are nation of idiots or only Europhobes took part in the poll. Added to the fact that Clegg is an unpopular politician anyway and Farage is relatively unknown.

UKIP embraces populism and nationalism, something that has always worked out well historically...... :erm:

[D-Type]

There has always been a sizeable minority of the electorate who are opposed to the concept of the UK being a part of "Europe" whether that means the EU, the International Court of justice, the Euro or whatever. Although a minority the number is significant and worth a political party courting them. Hence the debate.

I think my disillusionment with politics and politicians dates back to when Britain was trying to join what was then called 'The Common Market'. When Harold Wilson' Labour Government were applying for admission this was opposed by the Tories. When the Tories got elected and Ted Heath applied for membership, what did Labour do - they opposed the application. And Maggie Thatcher blew hot and cold depending on where the votes are.

My personal opinion:
Admittedly EU Membership does cost us; but can we afford the cost of not being members?
Do we want to be, economically speaking, an unofficial 51st US state? It is a wise move not to embrace the Euro at this time - I'm not an economist so I can't say that I know when would be the right time to do so - maybe once the current crises in some of the weaker economies are resolved.
Sometimes we are over-zealous in implementing EU regulations, i.e. we do so more fully than, say France, Italy and several of the less developed countries.
Politically, we are better off as part of Europe, rather than the European arm of the Commonwealth or as an American puppet.

[BleAivano]

I have seen some of Nigel's speeches in the Euro Parliament and imo he is right about much regarding the EU itself in general and the EU top brass in particular.

[BleAivano]

@D-type as for Sweden we loose more then we gain from the EU in my opinion.

We pay more to the EU then we get back (netto payers) and being an EU-member also means that some areas have it difficult due
to competition from other countries where the salaries are much lower and where the employment legislations are much looser.

Especially the long haul trucking branch in Sweden are almost free from Swedish truckers because there are truckers from other
countries that do the same hauling for a fraction of the cost.

EU have also grown way too big and is to big and powerful for its good. It costs too much to administer and law makers constantly tries to hide new
surveillance laws in suggestions for other laws to try to sneak.implement new laws.

The countries of Europe are too different to be artificially bunched together into a USE-union.

[driveace]

We stood alone before .There are too many silly laws,and only Germany and the UK above by them .The French truckers are blocking Calais again tonight ,if it's not them it's the Farmers ,the French Police are frightened of them all .Half the countries in the EU don't have any industries ,and rely on tourism .We are all different countries,with different ways of making a living and different values how can we all eat out of the same pot ?

[steveaki13]

We stood alone before .There are too many silly laws,and only Germany and the UK above by them .The French truckers are blocking Calais again tonight ,if it's not them it's the Farmers ,the French Police are frightened of them all .Half the countries in the EU don't have any industries ,and rely on tourism .We are all different countries,with different ways of making a living and different values how can we all eat out of the same pot ?

This sums up my thoughts really. I just feel its too hard for all the variety of cultures and economies in Europe to be as one.

There needs to be some other solution for me. I don't see the EU as the perfect answer.

[Robinho]

How is that different from say, a sheep farmer in Yorkshire, a b&b owner in Cornwall, a financial analyst from London and a sheet metal worker from Sunderland. There is as much difference in the one country as there is across the EU. Many of the "silly" laws actually originate from inside the country, not from the EU, the EU just recommends the standardisation across member states. From the outside we'd lose all the advantages and also any power to have any say over the direction of the group. I detest the xenophobic politics

[Rudy Tamasz]

This sums up my thoughts really. I just feel its too hard for all the variety of cultures and economies in Europe to be as one.

There needs to be some other solution for me. I don't see the EU as the perfect answer.

There's no one universal solution for Europe. Those who tried hard to find it ended up doing things we all remember too well. Europe needs a variety of solutions. The essence of Europe is its diversity. It doesn't get more European than coming to the neighboring town, and hearing a whole different accent and buying different stuff in the grocery store.

What really would unite Europe is mutual respect and freedom across the board. I can't quite imagine unelected bureaucrats from Brussels being committed to that, though.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Can anyone give me an example of 'a silly law' that came from the EU that doesn't come from what you heard from the bloke down the pub or out of a paper that begins with 'The Daily'?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It seems to me that it's too long since we had a sensible debate on the EU in this country and as a result most people are unaware of the purpose it serves and the benefits we get from it.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

So it seems to appear that UKIP have topped the EU polls here.

Thanks everybody. It does appear that the British population are all idiots.

[D-Type]

I totally agree

[odykas]

Many other clowns did very well in other counties:
- Le Pen
- Beppe Grillo
- Tsipras :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

Thanks everybody. It does appear that the British population are all idiots.

Quod erat demonstrandum......:devil: :p

[Big Ben]

So it seems to appear that UKIP have topped the EU polls here.

Thanks everybody. It does appear that the British population are all idiots.

Not all of them... just most of them... like in most in countries :p

[Robinho]

The people are idiots, but due to their apathy. When voter turnout is less than 40% you can always expect the fringe parties to do well, if they mobilise their significant minority into voting. Voter apathy is the biggest threat to democracy, when you end up with a extreme party with dangerous views and ideas in a position of real power you cannot complain if you sat on your arse when the lunatics and lowest common denominators who are pandered to, do get out and vote. If the turnouts had been more like 80% and the results were the same then I'd be worried about the sanity of the whole populace. The only hope is when these people get some power and real exposure they expose themselves as the Ill informed bigots they are, but seeing as that's their core voter, it probably won't make that much difference.

[gadjo_dilo]

Voter apathy is the biggest threat to democracy, .....

But what shall we do when we tried all posibilities and all politicians proved to be the same corrupted liars? Why should we bother to vote when nothing would change? I don't want to vote just for democracy's sake, I simply want a better life and none of our parties is able to help this.

[Robinho]

To me, voting to prevent something bad, even if it's voting for something that you don't always agree with. There is always a protest vote, but if people get hold of that and attract a large protest vote you end up with a Farage or a Le Pen with some real power. Corruption is a real worry, and a lot of politicians seem to be neck deep into it. I'd like to think there is always standing on a anti-corruption ticket. The alternative is to get involved with your peers and start something yourselves. That's the whole point of the political process. I maintain apathy is a bigger threat to democracy than the corrupt behaviour of some of the politicians. There should be an effective method of removing those types.

[odykas]

There are serious issues all across Europe and many people are discontent.

But this is not an excuse to vote for clowns.

[gadjo_dilo]

I maintain apathy is a bigger threat to democracy than the corrupt behaviour of some of the politicians. There should be an effective method of removing those types.
Yeah....I thought the same way. I was a dreamer......
That "some" of the politicians are the ones that make the rules in our parties.

[steveaki13]

So it seems to appear that UKIP have topped the EU polls here.

Thanks everybody. It does appear that the British population are all idiots.

What because they dont agree with you? (I didnt vote UKIP by the way) Its just I hate blanket statements about voters who people always assume they are better than.

I fully back everyone who voted for UKIP thats there decision and if its not what I voted for the majority wins. Thats democracy.

France voted most seats for a Nationalist party, Spains main two partys advantage was slashed and Germany had a anti Europe candidate win its first seat. Seems discontent is spreading throughout Europe

[steveaki13]

But what shall we do when we tried all posibilities and all politicians proved to be the same corrupted liars? Why should we bother to vote when nothing would change? I don't want to vote just for democracy's sake, I simply want a better life and none of our parties is able to help this.

Wrong attitude in my opinion Gadjo. Sorry to say it.

I hate the attitude of "Nothing would change"

Its like saying unless the Country gives me what I thinks right I wont bother voting and that to me seems so self centred. In a democracy you are one vote amongst all of your people.

It is the worst attitude in my opinion. I hate the constant "I am right" or everyone who doesnt vote like me ruins it.

People should be more accepting of the faults in a democracy and accept if the masses vote differently to your view and if you feel that strongly you should take action and move into politics maybe.

Its all to easy and Lazy to label people as "idiots and racists"

[gadjo_dilo]

Really? Come and live here for a year. :p

I don't have a problem with who votes who as I experienced even the worst type of dictatorship. My problem is that nothing ever changed no matter who had the power. Going to vote has become a waste of time and friends.

[odykas]

My problem is that nothing ever changed no matter who had the power. Going to vote has become a waste of time and friends.

This is the case almost everywhere.

The solution is to vote for other parties until somebody does it right.

The problem is that most people are not willing to change, so the situation remains as is.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What because they dont agree with you? (I didnt vote UKIP by the way) Its just I hate blanket statements about voters who people always assume they are better than.

I fully back everyone who voted for UKIP thats there decision and if its not what I voted for the majority wins. Thats democracy.

France voted most seats for a Nationalist party, Spains main two partys advantage was slashed and Germany had a anti Europe candidate win its first seat. Seems discontent is spreading throughout Europe

Well maybe idiots is a bit strong, but I certainly think that people who have voted UKIP are misguided and foolish or perhaps ignorant because of the lack of reasoned debate about the EU.

I don't believe that many UKIP voters are aware of the core values of the party.

[steveaki13]

Well maybe idiots is a bit strong, but I certainly think that people who have voted UKIP are misguided and foolish or perhaps ignorant because of the lack of reasoned debate about the EU.

I don't believe that many UKIP voters are aware of the core values of the party.

I think its largely because the "main parties" seem determined to put off a referendum. I really believe if one really committed to a referendum and to follow through whatever the outcome was, that many more will vote for them and UKIP will fade.

As it is none of the big parties have appeared keen over the last 5 years or so to have one. Conservatives have finally promised to have one and some point. This needs to be taken more seriously as people are disillusioned and thats why they see UKIP as an option. They are talking about action soon. Rather than at some point.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think its largely because the "main parties" seem determined to put off a referendum. I really believe if one really committed to a referendum and to follow through whatever the outcome was, that many more will vote for them and UKIP will fade.

As it is none of the big parties have appeared keen over the last 5 years or so to have one. Conservatives have finally promised to have one and some point. This needs to be taken more seriously as people are disillusioned and thats why they see UKIP as an option. They are talking about action soon. Rather than at some point.

I don't favour a referendum because I don't believe the British public are educated enough about the EU to be able to make a sensible choice. For many people all the EU gives them is immigration and non-bendy bananas sold in KGs not Ibs.

UKIP is the main reason why we can't have a reasoned debate on the EU.

[steveaki13]

You may not favour a referendum but democracy says if enough people want it you have to hold one.

If a government withholds a referendum they are going down a dodgy path which leads to even more troubles.

If the UK refused Scotland a referendum on independence then there would be trouble.

[henners88]

So it seems to appear that UKIP have topped the EU polls here.

Thanks everybody. It does appear that the British population are all idiots.
I agree. There are certain things UKIP pledge to tackle concerning immigration that I agree with, but there are more worrying policies in their agenda that I think people are not evaluating.

I hope these votes for UKIP force the current government and future governments to realise that people in the UK are sick to death of the slack immigration policies that are crippling this country and take note. We do need to be tougher, but UKIP is not the party to lead the solution IMO. I hope this is a warning rather than a desired solution!!

[steveaki13]

I hope these votes for UKIP force the current government and future governments to realise that people in the UK are sick to death of the slack immigration policies that are crippling this country and take note. We do need to be tougher, but UKIP is not the party to lead the solution IMO. I hope this is a warning rather than a desired solution!!

This is about right. The fact is that the larger parties need to take up the baton and take positive action on the things the people want. UKIP do have some questionable policies which is why I no longer vote for them, but its clear they offer certain aspects that the voters want, which the bigger parties up until now seem to have been keen to ignore.

Thus voters take action and vote for someone else. Its a protest vote IMO. Which will disappear if the Larger parties make some changes to their policies.

[steveaki13]

Still refuse to call UKIP voters idiots. They are as much as party of your country to vote they way they want. We may not agree but as they say I defend their right to vote and respect them for actually being bothered to vote.

[henners88]

You can thank many of the recent documentaries on benefits and immigration for the recent votes I believe. They have highlighted huge loop holes in the system and people are sick of the cost of living going up and having to support spongers and people who arrive in the UK simply to milk the benefits system. It is a protest vote and the government need to tighten up or we could be stuck with an even bigger problem, UKIP in power. The vast majority of people are not educated enough with politics but will listen to simplified television if it shows something they don't agree with IMO.

Did anybody see the C4 documentary the other week with the Romanian chap who was claiming over £800 a month for his family, nove of which lived in the UK! He is able to claim because of a loophole and I am sorry but people moving to the UK who bring no value like that should be more tightly governed. Its not about racisim, its about protecting the economy and providing a system that works for people who need it. If people move to the UK with the intention of working, then its never a problem IMO. There is also a huge number of UK born citizens who have never worked a day in their lives and are also adding to this problem. UKIP have attractive pledges in this department and the government need to listen now or we could be in big trouble further down the line.

[Rudy Tamasz]

You can thank many of the recent documentaries on benefits and immigration for the recent votes I believe. They have highlighted huge loop holes in the system and people are sick of the cost of living going up and having to support spongers and people who arrive in the UK simply to milk the benefits system. It is a protest vote and the government need to tighten up or we could be stuck with an even bigger problem, UKIP in power. The vast majority of people are not educated enough with politics but will listen to simplified television if it shows something they don't agree with IMO.

Did anybody see the C4 documentary the other week with the Romanian chap who was claiming over £800 a month for his family, nove of which lived in the UK! He is able to claim because of a loophole and I am sorry but people moving to the UK who bring no value like that should be more tightly governed. Its not about racisim, its about protecting the economy and providing a system that works for people who need it. If people move to the UK with the intention of working, then its never a problem IMO. There is also a huge number of UK born citizens who have never worked a day in their lives and are also adding to this problem. UKIP have attractive pledges in this department and the government need to listen now or we could be in big trouble further down the line.

If the abuse of benefits is a problem with both citizens and immigrants, just cut the benefits across the board and make people work. It will sure help some people to get back to their senses.

[Malbec]

UKIP is the main reason why we can't have a reasoned debate on the EU.

I disagree.

The reason we cannot have a reasoned debate on the EU is because the press are largely not interested in presenting both sides with a significant segment concentrating on presenting negative images only. Also because the mainstream politicians are not prepared to risk displaying backbone and leading on this issue as they know that being pro-EU is unpopular.

The same is true of migration.

UKIP's popularity is merely the natural result of such one-sided press coverage.

[gadjo_dilo]

They have highlighted huge loop holes in the system and people are sick of the cost of living going up and having to support spongers and people who arrive in the UK simply to milk the benefits system.

:confused: But shouldn't those who are sick of it also remember that your country used to be the biggest colonist empire and milked the resources and cheap labor of countries that never invited them there? :confused:
In a free world we should be free to go and establish wherever we want as long as we respect the local laws. Personally I would be more than happy if a "certain" segment of our population will leave this place.:devil:

[henners88]

:confused: But shouldn't those who are sick of it also remember that your country used to be the biggest colonist empire and milked the resources and cheap labor of countries that never invited them there? :confused:
I don't think those of us who are tired of the 'current' situation need to remember that, no.
Its certainly not something I need to think about, let alone feel guilty about when judging how to vote in 2014. As Rudy says above I also think the benefits system needs to be revised so that it isn't as desirable to move here for that reason alone. We get a lot of people angry that Polish people are coming here to work and that is something I don't understand. If people want to come here and work hard in jobs that the more lazy Brits don't wish to do or take on positions that aren't the best paid but are willing to work hard for it, then good luck to them. They are contributing to the economy and providing a service. I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in. I think that is the problem, not the people themselves. It needs to be tackled and is long over due IMO.

[gadjo_dilo]

I don't think those of us who are tired of the 'current' situation need to remember that, no.
Its certainly not something I need to think about, let alone feel guilty about when judging how to vote in 2014. As Rudy says above I also think the benefits system needs to be revised so that it isn't as desirable to move here for that reason alone. We get a lot of people angry that Polish people are coming here to work and that is something I don't understand. If people want to come here and work hard in jobs that the more lazy Brits don't wish to do or take on positions that aren't the best paid but are willing to work hard for it, then good luck to them. They are contributing to the economy and providing a service. I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in. I think that is the problem, not the people themselves. It needs to be tackled and is long over due IMO.
Ha! So we're good only for the positions you don't want and are bad paid.... A good doctor or an engineer isn't welcome to your country because he'll get a good wage and compete you.......
Ahaaa.....now i get it.......
At the same time I also might be angry that our skillful labor leave the country and we have to cope with the "segment" I mentioned above.

I think you should take us as we are, with our good and bad parts. Never in history people migration was limited only to the "good" guys.

[henners88]

Ha! So we're good only for the positions you don't want and are bad paid.... A good doctor or an engineer isn't welcome to your country because he'll get a good wage and compete you.......
Ahaaa.....now i get it.......
At the same time I also might be angry that our skillful labor leave the country and we have to cope with the "segment" I mentioned above.

I think you should take us as we are, with our good and bad parts. Never in history people migration was limited only to the "good" guys.
I can't quite believe what I am reading here?!

You've completely misunderstood.

Perhaps you could explain where I have said only the bad positions are good for immigrants or where I have said well qualified people moving to the UK are unwelcome? I said totally the opposite didn't I ?!

[gadjo_dilo]

Yeah... I reckon I have difficulties in ubderstanding great Will's language but what else could I see in the following paragraph?:

"If people want to come here and work hard in jobs that the more lazy Brits don't wish to do or take on positions that aren't the best paid but are willing to work hard for it, then good luck to them. They are contributing to the economy and providing a service. I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in. "

:confused:

[henners88]

Yeah... I reckon I have difficulties in ubderstanding great Will's language but what else could I see in the following paragraph?:

"If people want to come here and work hard in jobs that the more lazy Brits don't wish to do or take on positions that aren't the best paid but are willing to work hard for it, then good luck to them. They are contributing to the economy and providing a service. I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in. "

:confused:
That was just one example I used at the lower end of the scale. The conversation was about benefits and the drain on the economy so I am hardly going to discuss skilled foreign contributors because I had already stated I have no problem with that. Doctor's, engineers, company directors from Poland, or Eastern Europe working in the UK don't generally claim benefits. You picked out one sentence and made an assumption without using the context of the discussion. I said repeatedly I have no problem at all with immigration as long as it contributes to the economy and isn't abused because it offers free living.

Countries like Canada, Australia and America have stricter rules on immigration and I think the UK needs to take note of this. If a person offers absolutely no value to the UK, then what is the incentive to support them for free? We have created the problem which I also previously admitted. I hope you now understand :)

[gadjo_dilo]

Ok, I understand you have a problem only with those who are eligible for benefits......Like if you're poor and don't have a proper job don't come here. It's closed. :p

Countries like Canada, Australia and America have stricter rules on immigration and I think the UK needs to take note of this. They're not part of EU. If you accepted us you should learn to cohabitate with us. Whether you like us or not.

[henners88]

Sorry I didn't realise Canada, Australia and America were not part of the EU, so shouldn't have used them as examples for having immigration policies I admired. I should have used an EU country and made it up really.

Its not about disliking a nation of people and I don't know why you keep trying to accuse me of that? There is no point discussing something if my point of view is going to be twisted and misinterpreted so obviously. No thanks.

[Big Ben]

No. I understand her. Sometimes people have bad days, misunderstand things on purpose to pick up a fight with someone. What's going on gadjo? bad day at work? :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

I'm afraid you'll have a bad day on the forum if you "take of my life" ( regretabila traducere dar stii ce vreau sa spun ).:p

[odykas]

I think gadjo is referring to the free movement of EU nationals.

No matter what kind of immigration policies the EU countries may have, they shouldn't apply to EU citizens.

[donKey jote]

I think gadjo is referring to the free movement of EU nationals.

No matter what kind of immigration policies the EU countries may have, they shouldn't apply to EU citizens.
Yes.

I've spent most of my childhood and my entire adult life as an EU migrant in several EU countries, so this subject obviously touches a nerve...
Of course I might care that my tax money gets wasted! but I certainly don't care where whoever my hard earned tax monies get wasted on comes from, so long as they are all treated equal.
One thing I don't have much time for are the donkeys who fall for the jingo and actually believe that all their (Or -in their minds- their once glorious country's) problems are down to the couple of Johnny foreigners who actually do play the system.
How is this any worse than the couple of national fat cats playing the system in other ways, tax dodging and the likes?
Slack EU immigration policies crippling the UK... Strange how they don't cripple other EU countries with a much larger amount of net EU migration. I'd suggest some of you look elsewhere if you want to solve your problems, not to pint toting demagogues or their fancy ideas:)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Yes.

I've spent most of my childhood and my entire adult life as an EU migrant in several EU countries, so this subject obviously touches a nerve...
Of course I might care that my tax money gets wasted! but I certainly don't care where whoever my hard earned tax monies get wasted on comes from, so long as they are all treated equal.
One thing I don't have much time for are the donkeys who fall for the jingo and actually believe that all their (Or -in their minds- their once glorious country's) problems are down to the couple of Johnny foreigners who actually do play the system.
How is this any worse than the couple of national fat cats playing the system in other ways, tax dodging and the likes?
Slack EU immigration policies crippling the UK... Strange how they don't cripple other EU countries with a much larger amount of net EU migration. I'd suggest some of you look elsewhere if you want to solve your problems, not to pint toting demagogues or their fancy ideas:)

Here, here!

Absobloodylutely!

If you have a problem with the state benefit system then it is not the EUs fault or Johnny Foreigners fault, it is the UK governments fault.

So anyone who has a problem with the free movement of people in the EU has to come up with a different reason. Things like lack of infrastructure, housing, schooling etc to handle extra people is also the domestic governments problem. Other reasons like changing cultural identity and segregated communities are more personal and more difficult to tackle.

[odykas]

Slack EU immigration policies crippling the UK...

EU immigration policies are actually protecting the UK and other countries of the North / Central Europe.

The ridiculous Dublin 2 regulation prohibits transfer of illegal immigrants from the country they entered EU area to other EU countries.

As as result, most of the burden falls on countries of South Europe, while other EU member states enjoy border protection for free.

[henners88]

Yes.

I've spent most of my childhood and my entire adult life as an EU migrant in several EU countries, so this subject obviously touches a nerve...
Of course I might care that my tax money gets wasted! but I certainly don't care where whoever my hard earned tax monies get wasted on comes from, so long as they are all treated equal.
One thing I don't have much time for are the donkeys who fall for the jingo and actually believe that all their (Or -in their minds- their once glorious country's) problems are down to the couple of Johnny foreigners who actually do play the system.
How is this any worse than the couple of national fat cats playing the system in other ways, tax dodging and the likes?
Slack EU immigration policies crippling the UK... Strange how they don't cripple other EU countries with a much larger amount of net EU migration. I'd suggest some of you look elsewhere if you want to solve your problems, not to pint toting demagogues or their fancy ideas:)

I don't think anybody here thinks all the countries problems are down to foreigners so I hope that paragraph wasn't aimed at any one here in particular. I also don't think anybody here supports UKIP and believes they are the solution to all our problems either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[steveaki13]

I would like to point out at no point that I can remember have I even discussed the actual politics side.

I mearly defended peoples right to vote for UKIP and not be called idiots and racists as a sweeping statement.

I agree with certain aspects of all the posts made here.

Watch out Henners, Gadjo is feeling put out by your anti Romanian Rant :confused::p

and Gadjo you better not come over here or Henners and his kind will get you. :D

(No offence intended to either of you :))

[Malbec]

Countries like Canada, Australia and America have stricter rules on immigration and I think the UK needs to take note of this. If a person offers absolutely no value to the UK, then what is the incentive to support them for free?

It isn't possible to prospectively determine which immigrants will end up being productive and useful and which ones less so.

The countries you picked have all had very liberal immigration policies in the past, the USA more so than the other two. Much of their success is due to migration. Many American entrepeneurs, scientists and engineers were either first or second generation migrants with little to distinguish them from the rest. The ones who weren't so talented ended up providing cheap labour which helped America's industrial revolution that enabled it to first catch then surpass Europe. Even now legal and illegal migration from Latin America provides American industry at all levels with cheap labour that gives them an advantage, even if they are currently undercut by the Chinese.

Alternatively look at Japan, stagnating after decades, centuries of highly restricted migration. Even they are now looking at relaxing migration regulations to boost the economy.

Yes the British benefit system has loopholes. The amount 'wasted' on foreigners however pales into insignificance compared to that spent wrongly on UK citizens. The benefit system needs to be reformed, not the migration system.

I also find it amusing that British immigration figures include British citizens returning home after living for years overseas, finding that the drop in value of the Sterling since 2007 doesn't allow them to live in as much luxury as they are used to in France and Spain. Keep them out and the British migration problem is solved overnight ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

For many people who are unhappy about their country or anything in society, immigrants are the easy, almost lazy target. It makes people feel better to think that foreigners are the cause of all of their problems and we would all be much happier if we shut the borders.

This is the politics not of people who believe in racial superiority or who are even overly patriotic, but the opinions of people who are politically illiterate. They worry about the effect foreigners might have on their lives because they are unaware that their job in the Nissan plant at Sunderland might be a direct result of Britain being in the EU.

[donKey jote]

Yes the British benefit system has loopholes. The amount 'wasted' on foreigners however pales into insignificance compared to that spent wrongly on UK citizens. The benefit system needs to be reformed, not the migration system.
exactly, and this is the case in pretty much every country.

[donKey jote]

I don't think anybody here thinks all the countries problems are down to foreigners so I hope that paragraph wasn't aimed at any one here in particular.
No, not aimed at anybody here, but certainly triggered in part by your post :)

[donKey jote]

EU immigration policies are actually protecting the UK and other countries of the North / Central Europe.

The ridiculous Dublin 2 regulation prohibits transfer of illegal immigrants from the country they entered EU area to other EU countries.

As as result, most of the burden falls on countries of South Europe, while other EU member states enjoy border protection for free.
ody aren't your special dawn people any good at controlling your borders ? :devil:
They should take a lesson from these donkeys:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26201013
:dozey:

[henners88]

No, not aimed at anybody here, but certainly triggered in part by your post :)
Well that's fine as long as you weren't suggesting I said anything of the kind. :)

[henners88]

Watch out Henners, Gadjo is feeling put out by your anti Romanian Rant :confused::p

and Gadjo you better not come over here or Henners and his kind will get you. :D

(No offence intended to either of you :))
I didn't say anything anti Romanian but am starting to wish I didn't contribute anything at all as only certain words in my posts are being read in order to form assumptions.


Alternatively look at Japan, stagnating after decades, centuries of highly restricted migration. Even they are now looking at relaxing migration regulations to boost the economy.

Yes the British benefit system has loopholes. The amount 'wasted' on foreigners however pales into insignificance compared to that spent wrongly on UK citizens. The benefit system needs to be reformed, not the migration system.

I get the impression people think I am anti immigration and this is something I have never suggested whilst explaining earlier on. I can't go through it again but urge you if you feel the desire to read what I wrote earlier in the thread.

Your second point was also a point I made earlier too. I said if the benefits system was reformed, it would solve much of the negative immigration issues we face. We have plenty of 'lazy Brits' (I said it again) who milk the system and in vaster numbers than immigrants doing the same. The government need to listen to the protest vote and see what a fair chunk of the population want concerning the benefits system rather than a worse outcome of the dreaded UKIP gaining any power.

[odykas]

ody aren't your special dawn people any good at controlling your borders ? :devil:
They should take a lesson from these donkeys:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26201013
:dozey:

Special? We call them Golden Eggs :laugh:
They are just a bunch of useless uneducated mafiosos that unfortunately have gotten too much publicity from the media. A shame for the country.

As regards to immigration, there's no way to stop immigrants travelling by sea as their boats often wreck (sometimes on purpose), so the task for the coast guard is to rescue as many as possible Unfortunately, some of them do not make it....

[steveaki13]

I hear you Henners

Thats half the problem generally.

People see small quotes or one single opinion on the TV and suddenly everyone is a raging Racist.

Surely people reading these forums get the impression that Henners is a decent bloke and was hypothesising rather giving an opinion!
Not that he really said much in full.

[donKey jote]

Surely people reading these forums get the impression that Henners is a decent bloke and was hypothesising rather giving an opinion!

I'm one of those under the impression Henners is all in all a decent bloke. I mean this !

I simply take issue with quotes like this (an opinion, not a hypothesis):
"I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in."
and simply think this is a pretty typical example (it was from Henners, but could just as well have been from anybody else) of grossly exagerating the negative aspects of immigration.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I'm one of those under the impression Henners is all in all a decent bloke. I mean this !

I simply take issue with quotes like this (an opinion, not a hypothesis):
"I just take issue with people moving here from poverty stricken countries for example because our state gives them £1000 a month in benefits, access to the NHS, and a free house to live in."
and simply think this is a pretty typical example (it was from Henners, but could just as well have been from anybody else) of grossly exagerating the negative aspects of immigration.

Well it clearly is an exaggeration but I do think that the major parties need to be seen to be tackling benefit tourism. Part of the reason many have turned to the far-right politics is because the mainstream politicians are perceived to be ignoring this very issue. The politically illiterate don't recognise the benefits of immigration so the isolated cases of foreigners coming over here and allegedly getting a free mansion become deal breakers to them.

But I do believe that Henners was much more balanced in his post and subsequent posts than you give him credit for.

[janvanvurpa]

:confused: But shouldn't those who are sick of it also remember that your country used to be the biggest colonist empire and milked the resources and cheap labor of countries that never invited them there? :confused:
In a free world we should be free to go and establish wherever we want as long as we respect the local laws. Personally I would be more than happy if a "certain" segment of our population will leave this place.:devil:

The great historian Barbara Tuchman pointed out that before WWI a person could board a train in Constantinople and arrive in London without once showing his passport..
And that he could get off the train anywhere along the way and get a job.....

All that had changed just a few years later.

It does not mean it is a "natural " way of things.

[gadjo_dilo]

@janvanvurpa
......And here I am in the 21st century. Now there's a little problem for that route as Turkey is not an EU member but as an EU citizen I may travel from - let's say - Athens to London even without a passport, just with my ID card and I have the right to work anywhere along the way. When my country will enter the Schengen area things would be even more easier.:p

[gadjo_dilo]

Watch out Henners, Gadjo is feeling put out by your anti Romanian Rant
Naaah.....His comments weren't anti Romanian and I don't have a problem with him as he's one of my fav forumers. :p As you know I don't have a good opinion on my conationals either but at the same time the arrogance of some people (esp. in british media ) towards the easteners gets on my nerves.



and Gadjo you better not come over here or Henners and his kind will get you.
I'm not afraid as I'm sure you'll be there to defend me. :p

[henners88]

Well it clearly is an exaggeration but I do think that the major parties need to be seen to be tackling benefit tourism. Part of the reason many have turned to the far-right politics is because the mainstream politicians are perceived to be ignoring this very issue. The politically illiterate don't recognise the benefits of immigration so the isolated cases of foreigners coming over here and allegedly getting a free mansion become deal breakers to them.

But I do believe that Henners was much more balanced in his post and subsequent posts than you give him credit for.
Thanks Jon :)

Yes I was exaggerating to a degree with my example Donkey quoted but it's also truthful in some cases and I think this is something voters want to see tackled. The media do stoke the fire by publishing extreme examples, but the fact of the matter is these examples should not exist in the first place and its our government who have created a situation that can be exploited. I am not blaming foreigners for coming here and taking advantage because I think anybody would want the best for their family and would do the same if it offered a better life. I can only speak from the point of view of a British tax payer though who partially picks up the tab.

The benefits system in this country has got completely out of hand IMO. This is largely down to UK born citizens and I live in an area that see's this type of mentality every day. People who have been out of work for 10 plus years and are comfortable in the system because no job will replace what they once had. I know a guy through a family member of my wife's that hasn't worked for 18 years because he fell into depression after losing his job in the steel works. There are jobs around but they pay £40 a week less than he can get on benefits. He used to fake his illness at every assessment and spent every day in the pub or spent weekends at his new caravan in West Wales. He had a new conservatory fitted last summer and goes on the 6 Nations rugby tour every year. He worked for friends cash-in-hand doing roofing and openly bragged about it. He's one of the happiest guys I've met and now has been shopped 'thankfully'. He now has a job and is slightly worse off than he was a few months ago and feels hard done by.

This is the problem! People have no incentive to find work in many cases because the benefits system is the easier route. We can't blame people from other countries within the EU coming here to take advantage of that and I was never laying the blame there. The government need a reform in the system, close these silly loopholes for claims going abroad and squeeze the people who are stuck in the rut. I know its easier said than done and there is no quick fix, but our present government appear to be putting far too much effort into aiding the rich and not enough into tackling the issues that are affecting the average tax payer giving away a third of their wage every month. We are now in a situation where people are protesting by voting for UKIP and that is very very worrying indeed! They need to wake up. :)

PS: Gadjo and Donks are amongst my fav's here too ;)

[Malbec]

This is the politics not of people who believe in racial superiority or who are even overly patriotic, but the opinions of people who are politically illiterate.

Its also dead-end politics given that the demographic that is most xenophobic and therefore likely to vote for UKIP, skewing mainstream politics to the right is over 65 and will by definition die out over the next couple of decades.

One hopes there will be a strong swing to the centre again over time as there will be little to gain for the political parties over time in courting the right wing vote.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?

[donKey jote]

But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?
They can't avoid enthropy unless permanent big walls are built, and I don't see them lasting for ever if they were built either.


p.s. @Henns: big donkey hug :kiss: :sailor: I really wasn't getting at you personally or at the rest of your posts, just at the link between inmigration and the benefits system. It's one of my pet peeves, similar to newspapers mentioning the race or origin of a criminal as an epithet only when they're not local. :)

[Robinho]

The very people who are voting for UKIP are the same as would move to the Costa del sol or Palmanova, buy an apartment and work in a bar to get by, not realising that that would make them EU migration workers. Check out the stats on the number of British expats living and working elsewhere in the EU and then tell me there is an immigration problem in the UK.

[Malbec]

But do many people not naturally move to the right when they age as the youngsters new world becomes weird and scary to them?

On many issues like taxation I guess they do, but I think the swing towards being accepting of foreigners in those who are 40 or below is permanent. I don't see people in this demographic changing their attitude much but I might be wrong.

[odykas]

European elections: Nationalists look to build alliances

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-27611934

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/75157000/jpg/_75157769_nigel_meets_beppe.jpg

Hard to tell who's the biggest clown......

[donKey jote]

best thing is people supposedly vote people to be accountable and not to waste EU resources...

[odykas]

A list of the euroskeptic parties in Europe.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bo97JIjCUAIUQkC.png

I would add Beppe Grillo to the above list.

[Big Ben]

I think the main problem is that people don't vote in these elections or they just don't take them seriously enough and that's why we have these aberrant results.

Look at UKIP... 3.1% in national parliament (if odykas is not making up statistics :p) and 26.8% in the european parliament. It looks like the british are thinking... we don't want these idiots in our parliament but let them f*** around at Brussels... or something along those lines. Of course the most annoying thing is that then they go on and bitch and moan about the EU. The question is, are they really expecting UKIP to do any meaningful work in the european parliament? It seems they do their best to sabotage the UE and then complain the UE doesn't work.

Now, I only used the british as an example. Most of the countries in the UE 'behave' the same way.

I live in Romania and my POV is that this country doesn't belong to the UE... just because it's not up to its standards... and the worst part we're really working half-assed to get there. There's just no will here to achieve anything. So when I see the result for the european elections in this country and all the buffoons we are sending to the european parliament I am really ashamed. Whenever I cross the borders of the UE I feel like telling every people I meet I am sorry... but then I remember they all do the same thing.

The european elections are some sort of political eurovision

[gadjo_dilo]

. So when I see the result for the european elections in this country and all the buffoons we are sending to the european parliament I am really ashamed.

No offence but Mircea Diaconu is not a buffoon but an excelent comedy actor. :p

[odykas]

A map of populist parties, by The Economist.

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140531_EUM910_1.png

[gadjo_dilo]

lol. Even on this poll we're the last. :laugh:

[Rudy Tamasz]

I'd love to see the definition of populist and make sure it's not something used to deliberately marginalize anybody not belonging to the current political establishment.

[donKey jote]

the current political establishment.

the "caste", as the indignant bolivarian revolutionaries in Spain ("We can") call them :andrea:

[donKey jote]

It seems they do their best to sabotage the UE and then complain the UE doesn't work.


Yep, kick 'em out, the trojan trolls ! :p

[Rudy Tamasz]

the "caste", as the indignant bolivarian revolutionaries in Spain ("We can") call them :andrea:

Just a bunch of guys (and gals) who are ultimately people like you and me. Problem is their circle becomes ever more closed, detached from reality and less efficient at what they are doing. But when they hear they've partying more than enough they don't wanna stop and look around. Instead they start speaking about "populist", "far right", "far left" etc. These are meaningless terms to me, most likely describing somebody who for whatever reason dares challenge the current bunch.

[driveace]

News in the papers yesterday about Farrage having a long standing affair with his secretary ,all they all at it ?

[Bezza]

Well maybe idiots is a bit strong, but I certainly think that people who have voted UKIP are misguided and foolish or perhaps ignorant because of the lack of reasoned debate about the EU.

I don't believe that many UKIP voters are aware of the core values of the party.

That makes me misguided, foolish and perhaps ignorant then ;)

I am well aware of the UKIP values thank you and I perused all options available to me before voting. There is a need for change and I personally find Farage sincere. What you see is what you get with him, and that resonates with people.

For UKIP to win the European Election shows that we can't all be foolish and ignorant - that is probably left for you, foolish and somewhat ignorant for classing everyone who voted UKIP as such.

At least you didn't accuse the UKIP voters of being racist...which some hardcore lefties seem to think.

[Bezza]

That was just one example I used at the lower end of the scale. The conversation was about benefits and the drain on the economy so I am hardly going to discuss skilled foreign contributors because I had already stated I have no problem with that. Doctor's, engineers, company directors from Poland, or Eastern Europe working in the UK don't generally claim benefits. You picked out one sentence and made an assumption without using the context of the discussion. I said repeatedly I have no problem at all with immigration as long as it contributes to the economy and isn't abused because it offers free living.

Countries like Canada, Australia and America have stricter rules on immigration and I think the UK needs to take note of this. If a person offers absolutely no value to the UK, then what is the incentive to support them for free? We have created the problem which I also previously admitted. I hope you now understand :)


Spot on Henners. Labour with the War Criminal Tony Blair caused this problem in 1997 when they got in power. They opened the floodgates and gave out ridiculous benefits so they would get more voters.

[henners88]

I think Farage comes across as sincere right now but he is a politician. They all promise the world before they get into power but at the end of the day are all feathering their own nests in the long term. While I agreed with some of the pledges UKIP made concerning immigration, I couldn't vote for them because the more important policies would royally screw people like me if they got the vote. I agree with Jon that they got the protest vote in Europe mainly because they pushed immigration as their buzz word. All the other policies that would affect the lower middle classes with higher income tax, scrapping maternity/paternity pay, and scrapping the entitlement for annual holiday to name but a few, these may have been lost on the honest working individual IMO. I was driving through Merthyr Tydfil yesterday and UKIP posters are everywhere. I really don't know what people think they will offer them that may make them better off? Surely it is area's like this that will lose out? They may come down hard with certain aspects of immigration, but when then we have to live with the consequences of living with an even more tax hungry government who are dead against rewarding hard work. It all seems massively contradictory to me.

[Malbec]

I was driving through Merthyr Tydfil yesterday and UKIP posters are everywhere. I really don't know what people think they will offer them that may make them better off? Surely it is area's like this that will lose out?

Quite.

If people in South Wales who have benefited more from the EU than any other part of the UK vote for UKIP then it shows how idiotic the situation is regarding anti-EU propaganda.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

That makes me misguided, foolish and perhaps ignorant then ;)

I am well aware of the UKIP values thank you and I perused all options available to me before voting. There is a need for change and I personally find Farage sincere. What you see is what you get with him, and that resonates with people.

For UKIP to win the European Election shows that we can't all be foolish and ignorant - that is probably left for you, foolish and somewhat ignorant for classing everyone who voted UKIP as such.

At least you didn't accuse the UKIP voters of being racist...which some hardcore lefties seem to think.

How can you find Farage sincere? He can promise the world because it is quite unlikely that he'll ever become an MP, never mind PM. But the man who claims to be a 'man of the people' and to have worked in 'business' for 30 years is really just a posh boy who was previously a banker in the City.

[odykas]

It is now evident that Jean-Claude Juncker will be the next president of the EU commission.

It will be integresting to see Cameron's reaction.

[driveace]

Looks very likely that when we do get a referendum the vote is more than likely to be "Britain should leave the EU"
The man in the street,the workers,the voters can see no benefit from being a member of the EU ,and the 50 Million a day that we pay into it. And Labours view that Nissan and Toyota would leave ,as Ford have already moved most of it's production abroad ,is not true ,they receive far too many conn cessions to pull out of the UK

[donKey jote]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28069366

UKIP leader Nigel Farage said there was a mood within the EU that it would rather get rid of the "friendless" UK than allow it to start "picking apart treaties".

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that leaders viewed Britain as "a damned nuisance" that was "always complaining".
:wave: :devil: :andrea:

[henners88]

If we are disliked as much as we want to leave, what's the hold up?

[donKey jote]

ask your unelected leaders? :p :andrea:

[odykas]

I've lost the battle over Juncker but not the war, says Cameron

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10931439/Ive-lost-the-battle-over-Juncker-but-not-the-war-says-Cameron.html

A detail: The outcome of the battle was a 26 - 2 defeat :p:

[donKey jote]

What I don't understand is the whining about unelected leaders, lack of democracy and shedding powers to the EU parliament...
Juncker is the leader of the most voted party (bit like Cameron himself :laugh: ), the member states agree his nomination 26-2 (!), and what better place than the parliament of democratically elected MEPs to shed EU powers to?

If you can't be constructive then it's about time you get on yer bikes and deal with the EU from the outside :andrea:

[Malbec]

Looks very likely that when we do get a referendum the vote is more than likely to be "Britain should leave the EU"

I agree, if the Tories win the next election and there is a referendum I think we will leave.

I also think that among the British business and political elite there is an incredible level of complacency regarding popular opinion about EU membership. Many people here in London I speak to in the banking, legal or other business fields simply refuse to accept there is any chance that the British will vote to leave. After all the British population could simply not be stupid enough to realise the benefits of remaining in the EU right? What next? Voting to have all the oxygen removed from the atmosphere?


The man in the street,the workers,the voters can see no benefit from being a member of the EU ,and the 50 Million a day that we pay into it. And Labours view that Nissan and Toyota would leave ,as Ford have already moved most of it's production abroad ,is not true ,they receive far too many conn cessions to pull out of the UK

Its not Labour's view, its the CBI and that of much of industry. It would be naive in the extreme to expect much more investment from outside the EU if Britain is outside the free trade area, after all the cost of paying import tax into the EU would have to be factored into the cost of investment which would make the UK far far less competitive than it already is. Banking would simply decamp to Frankfurt or anywhere else within the EU that makes them welcome.

Any negotiation with the EU for our relationship with it once we leave would be dictated to us on their terms, not ours. We would lose any existing goodwill and could end up with unbalanced trade agreements. We would have to re-negotiate all the trade deals the EU has made on our behalf with other countries, that is assuming they will be interested in spending diplomatic resources talking to a country with a mere 60 million inhabitants.

The arguments for remaining within the EU are self-explanatory. What I find baffling is that no-one is making the case for it. The right wing supposedly pro-business press refuse to discuss it, the left wing press don't want to either, presumably because the argument is too capitalist orientated for them. None of the political parties except the Liberals are prepared to explain the pro-EU arguments and the Liberals are hopeless at it. As far as I can see only the Economist has been brave enough to tackle the issue head on, but I don't think too many of the right kind of people read it...