Xsaras slowish ?

[MHjerpe]

Why are the Xsaras so slow this year.. even with drivers like Manfred,Carlsson and Galli we all know they are competent drivers and can drive fast.. but this year they have struggeled to keep the pace of the others... realy strange..

Have the other cars got so much quicker in 2-3 months?? Are the Xsaras down-tweaked?? have the others got much better at driving??. well I find it a bit strange.. Any one else thought about it ?

[duff]

Driving style is the main thing I think. The car is totally designed around Loeb who drives very, very straight. Which is why many more sideways drivers have had alot of trouble with it, starting with Mcrae. I think it, more than any other car, requires the driver to drive in one style only.
I think it suits drivers who are tarmac drivers first (ie. Loeb, Sordo).

[Tom206wrc]

I was really hoping Manfred and Galli would stay in the whale before the 2007 season starts... :mark: ;(

[MHjerpe]

did't Manfred drove quit well with the Xsara some years ago.. but can't do it this year...

And not to forget Duval... (is he a straight-lainer ? ) edit: added duval

[rwssport]

Are the cars that Stohl and the others using Active or Passive like Loeb used last year? Could this be the reason?

[MHjerpe]

I think Manfred is on passive and Carlsson on active.. Galli dunno :(

[Simjatov]

The car is still a competitive car, maybe on par with the focus. But the biggest reason is lack of testing for the drivers. I know Carlsson did his first meters on gravel at the shakedown in Portugal, and I dont think Galli and Stohl had much better preparations. Whithout testing its hard to get confidence with the car, and have to spend the rally to try other settings that might work better.

I dont know for sure, but I think that Citroen is the team with by far most test kilometers. One of the reasons that make Loeb fast.

[DonJippo]

Why are the Xsaras so slow this year..?

Are they? If you compare against others than Loeb from last year is there such a big difference?

[Brother John]

Citroën are down-tweaked, read the signature from DonJippo! :D

[Viktory]

I read somewhere that Carlsson was a bit disappointed because he learned that they are using older versions of the Xsara than Loeb did last year. I think something like the 04 version (don't quote me on that last part though)

[Windsofwar]

I think the engines are a little low-powered because as a private cars they have to last more than possible. And yes some are using active, some passive cars, I think PH Sport Xsara (Galli) is one of the first, built on 2002.

[DonJippo]

I think the engines are a little low-powered because as a private cars they have to last more than possible.

Engines has to last 3 events both in M and MT teams.

[JAM]

IMO the situation is obvious: You don't have a big structure working on the car and trying to find the perfect set-up for each km of rallying. Maybe a lot of data from 2006 season is not on Kronos hands, so the cars are not so perfect as they were. Plus, Stohl, Galli and Carlsson are not Sebastien Loeb wich had the car made to suit absolutely his style.

IMO Sainz and Mcrae had lost some confidence by driving this car after Ford.

I start seing the Loeb / Xsara as Makkinen / Lancer Evo... Makinen was the only one that was able to drive that car perfectly, and we see that Loeb is the same with the Xsara, plus Sordo on tarmac.

[Viktory]

I read somewhere that Carlsson was a bit disappointed because he learned that they are using older versions of the Xsara than Loeb did last year. I think something like the 04 version (don't quote me on that last part though)

also this....

[ZequeArgentina]

Xsaras have never been dificult to drive Any driver getting on it have soon got to the speed the driver have.

I gues structue and technical capabilities is the clue here, adding that some last updated part could probably not have been given to kronos.
Stohl has complaint of sttin up problems (mostly differentials and brakes).

[Xsara Fan]

Citroen Xsara WRC`s at 2007:

Stohl (MC, Sweden, Norway, Portugal) - T429. Built in 02.04.2003.
Other starts:
2003 Acropolis Rally / McRae-Ringer / 8 position
2003 Wales Rally GB / McRae-Ringer / 4 position
2004 Rally Mexico / Loeb-Elena / Retired (oil sump)
2004 Rally Japan / Loeb-Elena / 2 position
2005 Swedish Rally / Loeb-Elena / Retired (engine)
2005 Cyprus Rally / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2005 Wales Rally GB / Loeb-Elena / 3 position
2006 Corona Rally Mexico / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2006 Rally Argentina / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2006 Cyprus Rally / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2006 Rally Turkey / Sordo-Marti / 7 position
2006 Wales Rally of GB / Sordo-Marti / 7 position

Carlsson - T428. Built in 27.02.2003.
Other starts:
2003 Wales Rally GB / Loeb-Elena / 2 position
2004 Rally Monte Carlo / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2004 Rally Turkey / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2004 Rally Italia Sardinia / Loeb-Elena / 2 position
2005 Rally Italia Sardinia / Loeb-Elena / 1 position
2005 Neste Rally Finland / Loeb-Elena / 2 position
2005 Rally Australia / Loeb-Elena / Retired (accident)

Galli - T416. Built in 17.01.2002.
Other starts:
2002 Rally Tour de Corse / Bugalski-Chiaroni / 4 position
2002 Rally Sanremo / Bugalski-Chiaroni / Retired
2003 Rally Argentina / Sainz-Marti / 2 position
2003 Rally Finland / Sainz-Marti / 4 position
2003 Rally Australia / Loeb-Elena / 2 position
2003 Rally Tour de Corse / Bugalski-Chiaroni / 9 position
2004 Rally México / Sainz-Marti / 3 position
2004 Rally Finland / Sainz-Marti / 3 position
2004 Rally Catalunya / Sainz-Marti / 3 position
2005 Wales Rally GB / Duval-Smeets / 2 position
2005 Rally Tour de Corse / Pons-Del Barrio / 7 position
2005 Rally Catalunya / Pons-Del Barrio / 4 position
2005 Show 'Encuentro de Campeones Citroen' at Karting La Roca (Quijas, Cantabria, Spain) / Loeb & Sordo
2006 Rally Lyon-Charbonnieres / Henry-Lombard / 2 position
2006 Rally Alsace-Vosges / Henry-Lombard / 2 position
2006 Rally Région Limousin / Henry-Lombard / 2 position
2006 Rally Rouergue / Loeb-Loeb / Zero-car
2006 OMV ADAC Rally Deutschland / Gardemeister-Honkanen / 4 position
2006 Rallye Mont-Blanc Morzine / Grosset-Janin-Gordon / 1 position
2006 Rally Touquet / Grosset-Janin-Gordon / Retired, accident
2006 Rallye Critérium des Cévennes / Grosset-Janin-Gordon / 3 position

If you need any more info, you know were you`ll find it ;)

[COD]

What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the private Xsaras like there was not last year. The drivers in them are just absolutely c**p.

[Tomi]

Or maybe the laptop guy from Citroen is playing a prank and drop the power so that the guys cant keep in pace with Sordo :)

[A.F.F.]

Downgraded cars, not again ;)

[Tomi]

Downgraded cars, not again ;)

lol, might be, either the cars or drivers are downgraded.

[cut the b.s.]

What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the private Xsaras like there was not last year. The drivers in them are just absolutely c**p.

yeah?

[koko0703]

I don't think Xsara is particularily slow this year, but if you compare this year's performance with the last couple years of impressive record, it is somewhat disappointing. But on the other hand, no matter how good the car is, it will be outdated at some point, and I think Xsara is reaching its end as a competitive car. In fact Xsara hasn't gotten much development after 2005 season.

[duff]

did't Manfred drove quit well with the Xsara some years ago.. but can't do it this year...

And not to forget Duval... (is he a straight-lainer ? )

Duval is quite a sideways driver but never showed anywhere near the pace on gravel in the xsara that he had in the focus previously. Tarmac he did OK, but everyone drives straight on tarmac!
As for Manfred, he's the difficult question in my eyes. With all his experience, and previous knowledge of the car I thought he'd be much quicker this year (at least faster than he was in the whale!)

[MHjerpe]

Duval.. Wales 2005 ? a bit behind petter but still second place.. :)
Japan 2005 4'th place.. Australia 2005.. he won ;)

But I guess it's a combination of it all.. not so much testing as needed, drivers not comfortable with the cars yet, Citroen Sport is not producing top-notch engines as "kronos/ph" want more value for the money and the engines to hold a bit longer.

[duff]

Duval.. Wales 2005 ? a bit behind petter but still second place.. :)
Japan 2005 4'th place.. Australia 2005.. he won ;)


I'm not questioning some of his results, but his outright speed in comparison to his drives in the the focus in 2003/2004. :)

[Brother John]

Do you really think that Citroën allow the Xsara's to beat the new C4? :dozey:
Wake up guys! :confused:

[J.Lindstroem]

Do you really think that Citroën allow the Xsara's to beat the new C4? :dozey:
Wake up guys! :confused:

The new Citroens are running in 1-4th place all the time. And the Kronos Xsaras are running in 8-10th lace. Off course Citroen doesnt want he Xsara to beat the C4, but i don´t think they mind it beeing a little faster than 8-10th place, five minutes behind the C4!

[Wim_Impreza]

The new Citroens are running in 1-4th place all the time. And the Kronos Xsaras are running in 8-10th lace. Off course Citroen doesnt want he Xsara to beat the C4, but i don´t think they mind it beeing a little faster than 8-10th place, five minutes behind the C4!

It is a fact that Stohl is not an absolutely top driver and Carlsson is only fast in Sweden. I expected Galli to beat the Kronos team, but he is a disappointment too until now.

[teufel]

Duval.. Wales 2005 ? a bit behind petter but still second place.. :)


Was it really a second place? Only after Seb was late on the last timecheck, so plz add cca. 2 more minutes to his time.

[JAM]

It is a fact that Stohl is not an absolutely top driver and Carlsson is only fast in Sweden. I expected Galli to beat the Kronos team, but he is a disappointment too until now.

Galli is spectacular buit not so eficient as wished. The PH Xsara is one step behind the ones from Kronos, so is dificult to make a miracle.

[COD]

Galli is spectacular buit not so eficient as wished. The PH Xsara is one step behind the ones from Kronos, so is dificult to make a miracle.


How come that PH Xsara is so bad now when Galli is driving it?? Last year it was supposed to be a top machine, just the drivers couldn't use it

[JAM]

How come that PH Xsara is so bad now when Galli is driving it?? Last year it was supposed to be a top machine, just the drivers couldn't use it

Was? With Gardemeister? I don't think...

[jso1985]

The new Citroens are running in 1-4th place all the time. And the Kronos Xsaras are running in 8-10th lace. Off course Citroen doesnt want he Xsara to beat the C4, but i don´t think they mind it beeing a little faster than 8-10th place, five minutes behind the C4!

maybe Citroën tought the C4 wasn't going to be that fast in snow and early gravel rallyes, so besides being humiliated by Ford(if the car would have been slower) they avoided the chance of getting humiliated by themselves!

I think it's quite obvious they downgraded the cars, as I also think Ford downgrades the Stobbart and Munchis cars, can't blame both teams really, it's their cars

[Viktory]

as I posted earlier but no one seemed to take notice, Carlsson has expressed disappointment when learning that kronos are using an older version of the Xsara than last year....

[Isthmus]

I saw, don´t know where, that tha Xsaras whore older versions, but really older ones, something like 2002/03.

[Viktory]

I saw, don´t know where, that tha Xsaras whore older versions, but really older ones, something like 2002/03.

precisely what I've been trying to say all this time... Am I on everyones ignore list?! :p

[COD]

Was? With Gardemeister? I don't think...

Maybe it goes to show what a driver he really is compared to to all these Gallis, Carlssons and Stohls :?:

[Helstar]

Maybe it goes to show what a driver he really is compared to to all these Gallis, Carlssons and Stohls :?:
I disagree, I believe there is really a problem with the cars. Old or downgraded or setup problems or all of them I don't know, but facts are: Carlsson so slow everywhere (even Sweden !), how come ... Stohl used Xsara in 2005 and he was not this bad ... both Galli and Stohl slower with Xsara than the 307 :\ the only good thing was Galli performance on early Sweden stages, but I think it was thanks to the snow Pirelli tyres mainly.

[A.F.F.]

I don't think they're slower than they used to be with Xsaras. I think C4s and Focus' are faster this year.

[COD]

I disagree, I believe there is really a problem with the cars. Old or downgraded or setup problems or all of them I don't know, but facts are: Carlsson so slow everywhere (even Sweden !), how come ... Stohl used Xsara in 2005 and he was not this bad ... both Galli and Stohl slower with Xsara than the 307 :\ the only good thing was Galli performance on early Sweden stages, but I think it was thanks to the snow Pirelli tyres mainly.

:laugh: I love this, last year when Toni and Janne complained about the car, it was ignored by so many here. The drivers got bashed. :laugh: NOw the car is suddenly SOOO BAD

[DonJippo]

I disagree, I believe there is really a problem with the cars. Old or downgraded or setup problems or all of them I don't know, but facts are: Carlsson so slow everywhere (even Sweden !), how come ... Stohl used Xsara in 2005 and he was not this bad ... both Galli and Stohl slower with Xsara than the 307 :\ the only good thing was Galli performance on early Sweden stages, but I think it was thanks to the snow Pirelli tyres mainly.

You should compare time differences not positions, their pace is about the same compared to winners in 2005-2007. Seems that now there just is more drivers between winner and these guys than before.

[A.F.F.]

If I remember right, janne didn't actually complain about the car. he said it was tricky to drive and what made it a bit emberrasing was that it was tricky to drive for him. I don't remember Toni ever complained about Xsara ? Remind me please.

[Tomi]

If I remember right, janne didn't actually complain about the car. he said it was tricky to drive and what made it a bit emberrasing was that it was tricky to drive for him. I don't remember Toni ever complained about Xsara ? Remind me please.

Maybe there was too little snow for janne?

[A.F.F.]

Maybe there was too little snow for janne?


Janne said that he had to push the car to high rpms and it made it tricky. I don't believe him. I think there was too little snow in Jyväskylä last august :D

[Zes]

If I remember right, janne didn't actually complain about the car. he said it was tricky to drive and what made it a bit emberrasing was that it was tricky to drive for him. I don't remember Toni ever complained about Xsara ? Remind me please.

In some interview Toni was asked to compare 307 and Xsara. He told that 307 wasn't so easy to drive than Xsara, but when he got used to 307, it felt better than Xsara.

[A.F.F.]

In some interview Toni was asked to compare 307 and Xsara. He told that 307 wasn't so easy to drive than Xsara, but when he got used to 307, it felt better than Xsara.

Ok, cheers Zes. :up:

But that's hardly a complain.

[Tom206wrc]

What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the private Xsaras like there was not last year. The drivers in them are just absolutely c**p.




After what they showed last year(at least Gigi and Manfred), saying they have become suddenly "crap" is...erm... :rolleyes:

[Tom206wrc]

I disagree, I believe there is really a problem with the cars. Old or downgraded or setup problems or all of them I don't know, but facts are: Carlsson so slow everywhere (even Sweden !), how come ... Stohl used Xsara in 2005 and he was not this bad ... both Galli and Stohl slower with Xsara than the 307 :\ the only good thing was Galli performance on early Sweden stages, but I think it was thanks to the snow Pirelli tyres mainly.



Me thinks Manfred Stohl and sponsor OMV have simply been "trapped" by the fact that the Kronos Citroën succeed in giving the driver title to Loeb last year !!! :mark:


But what shoud have opened the eyes of Manfred is that no other drivers than Seb could really do the best with the Xsara !!! Hismself, Stohl, was faster than any other drivers driving the Xsara last year(Pons, Sordo, even Gardemeister,...) :rolleyes:

[WRC1]

Me thinks Manfred Stohl and sponsor OMV have simply been "trapped" by the fact that the Kronos Citroën succeed in giving the driver title to Loeb last year !!! :mark:


But what shoud have opened the eyes of Manfred is that no other drivers than Seb could really do the best with the Xsara !!! Hismself, Stohl, was faster than any other drivers driving the Xsara last year(Pons, Sordo, even Gardemeister,...) :rolleyes:

Manfred himself told in an Intervie with motorline that the problem is that his xsara (and also the ones of gigi and daniel) has nothing to do with the xsara loeb used last year, they had all the parts (suspension, gearbox, brakes,..)of this years C4 in Loebs car already last year..

he, and also Kronos dont know why Citroen want let them use this parts.

but he also said that he is sure that the decision to go back to Kronos for 2007 was absolutly right, because the works teams are so much faster and they spend so much more money in development than last year, that with the peugeot he would be even more behind the top times than now with the xsara...

regards

wrc1

[DonJippo]

Manfred himself told in an Intervie with motorline that the problem is that his xsara (and also the ones of gigi and daniel) has nothing to do with the xsara loeb used last year, they had all the parts (suspension, gearbox, brakes,..)of this years C4 in Loebs car already last year..

Really, I thought some of these parts needs to be homogolated before those can be used...

[Tom206wrc]

...
but he also said that he is sure that the decision to go back to Kronos for 2007 was absolutly right, because the works teams are so much faster and they spend so much more money in development than last year, that with the peugeot he would be even more behind the top times than now with the xsara...





Wow !!! He really said that about the car that therefore allowed him to end on many podiums last year ???? :eek:


:mark:

[WRC1]

part1 of the interview
http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index1.php?section=rallye&article=137906
part2
http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index1.php?section=rallye&article=137937
part3
http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index1.php?section=rallye&article=137906

@Don Jippo: yes i thought the same, but he really said this here:

"Das glaube ich auch nicht, dass diese Angst besteht. Es ist nicht leicht zu erklären. Fakt ist, dass die Teile, die heute im C4 verbaut sind, auch schon im letztjährigen Xsara eingebaut waren."

fact is that the parts wich are today in the c4 where in last years xsara...

@ Tom: he said in part 2 of the interview that he loved the whale, for 2006 this was the best combination, but there was no chance of improving or/and developing at peugeot and the competition is much harder than last year, so he thinks that with citroen there is a better chance of improvement and development...

regards

wrc1

[A.F.F.]

Wow !!! He really said that about the car that therefore allowed him to end on many podiums last year ???? :eek:


:mark:


Agreed. Last year he was praising 307 the best car he has ever driven.

[LeonBrooke]

but he also said that he is sure that the decision to go back to Kronos for 2007 was absolutly right, because the works teams are so much faster and they spend so much more money in development than last year, that with the peugeot he would be even more behind the top times than now with the xsara...

regards

wrc1

The problem is that last year Stohl was in the best 307 in the field. This year he's in a previous-generation car, a car that he's said he had problems getting comfortable with, that's far below works standard. This year he has to keep the Citroen factory happy by not beating them; last year he was the best Peugeot out there and no one was attempting to reign in his performance.

[Tom206wrc]

If it's true that the whale has no more developpment, it should be the same for the Xsara anyway, no ??? :s

[Brother John]

I had told once already. :D What you see is not always what it is..........
So Citroën was played a false game in 2006.............?!?
I have not been surprised about this.
Most here believe really that big teams or factories are no impostors!
Belief me! Business is always to deceive for the money.....or for the honour of the name!!!
Is Loeb really a super driver without Citroën and Michelin????????
The future will say it. I think as Citroën disappear in the WRC Loeb also will disappear and move to the Le Mans series. :s mokin:

[WRC1]

If it's true that the whale has no more developpment, it should be the same for the Xsara anyway, no ??? :s

in rallying you dont develop the whole car as such, but parts of it!

for sure there will be no development of the aerodynamic parts of the xsara or the bodyshell itself, but all the technic parts (gearbox, engine, clutch, brakes, suspension, steering...) fits from C4 to xsara and the other way round, so if there is a developend in this parts, and i am sure there is one, AND the poeple at Citroen sport are willing, than these parts can be used also in the kronos cars...


sorry for my english, but i hope you get what i wanted to say ;)
regards

wrc1