Vodafone Rally de Portugal 2014

[Rallyper]

@dimviii VW have done a huge job to that car. Didn´t think they even would consider repairing... But "new" rules allowed it obviously.

[satukata]

yes, both malhao stages

Hope You or somebody else can give live stream adress for us :)

[litifeta]

is WRC radio echoing for anyone else? It is really annoying.

[Doon]

Kubica setting another slow time. How many stages will he complte today?

[satukata]

Great to see that Ford´s have great speed also today!!!

Go Mikko!!

[Eli]

is WRC radio echoing for anyone else? It is really annoying.

yes, non stop...

[satukata]

Kubica setting another slow time. How many stages will he complte today?

I hope the best but my bet is 2 off´s today for Kubica...

Speed is ok, about the same than evans who have manufacturer team car

[dimviii]

into 1,1 sec top 4 crews! likelikelikelikelike!!

[dimviii]

now the longest stage of rally 31,9km.


nice dogfight between Ketomaa-Nasser

[satukata]

Good fights in wrc2 too!

[dimviii]

some new photos at borl
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bestofrallylive/

[noel157]

Notes apparently cause of Meeke off:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113282

[dimviii]

Tanak-Ogier with 1 spare,all the others with 2 spares

[andyone]

Tannak a real potential

Sent from my Quantum using Tapatalk

[satukata]

I hope the best but my bet is 2 off´s today for Kubica...

Speed is ok, about the same than evans who have manufacturer team car

1st off today? Kubica :(

[thuGG]

Ok, I give up, that's too much.

[nafpaktos]

Volkswagen used a fork-lift truck to help straighten the chassis leg of Jari-Matti Latvala’s Polo R.
Unbelievable.

[KKS]

Mads.... c'mon !

[Rallyper]

Volkswagen used a fork-lift truck to help straighten the chassis leg of Jari-Matti Latvala’s Polo R.
Unbelievable.

The chassi should be softer and weaker on left front after surgery.

[Hasselhoax]

Tanak is flying here - 1 sec quicker than Ogier to the 2nd split

[satukata]

splits looking very intresting :) Ogier still driving safety? I´m sure he will attack later

[dimviii]

[[SS9] Jari-Matti Latvala (Volkswagen) 23:28.4 "The beginning was quite good, I had a good feeling, but at the mid-point of the stage it started to be very slippy. Very difficult with the conditions. Kubica has gone off the road but he was stuck on the side of the road."

[OnlyRally]

Mads is flying

[noel157]

1st off today? Kubica :(

If you're reading this on SS9, after 18km, Robert Kubica needs a push... @rallydeportugal

[Hasselhoax]

splits looki
splits looking very intresting :) Ogier still driving safety? I´m sure he will attack later
You can't really know but that's my bet too. He's one of the few who can drive safe fast and then make a big push in the end. Amazing.

Go Mikko!

[nafpaktos]

A factory seat for tanak please.

[OnlyRally]

A factory seat for tanak please.
thats what i said in the end of 2012 :)

[dimviii]

Ogier managed to take difference at last split

[Eli]

A factory seat for tanak please.
an immidiate change between him and Kubica now!!

[satukata]

tanak´s speed compared Evans is from different planet.

Hope Malcolm change seat 2 driver

[nafpaktos]

If you talk for today,Evans starts first so you cannot compare the stage times.

[dimviii]

at end of ss9
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bkc71iOIAAAol-3.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Mikko second quickest is SS9 but lost 8.7s on Ogier. Drop to second place of the overall classification for 2.4s...

[OnlyRally]

ogier did start first yesterday... hmm

[Bartek]

SS10 will be live in tv?

[satukata]

any live tv link for next stage?

[satukata]

If you talk for today,Evans starts first so you cannot compare the stage times.

i talk about every rallies this year. Evans speed is ok but tanak is much faster

[Doon]

any live tv link for next stage?

normal service resumed. Ogier will destroy the sick dogs today.

....oh and Kubica back in a ditch. Big surprise.

Another dull rally. Give Ogier the title now.

[Eli]

normal service resumed. Ogier will destroy the sick dogs today.

....oh and Kubica back in a ditch. Big surprise.

Another dull rally. Give Ogier the title now.
bring someone who can challange Ogier, like Gronholm (who challanged Loeb back in 2007...)

[satukata]

bring someone who can challange Ogier, like Gronholm (who challanged Loeb back in 2007...)

Gronholm was all the time little bit faster than hirvonen. We need marcus back!

[SubaruNorway]

Should be on here but i can't seem to make the stream work today, just me?
http://www.ilive.to/view/57259/RTP_1_%28Portugal%29-live-stream-channel

[Doon]

bring someone who can challange Ogier, like Gronholm (who challanged Loeb back in 2007...)

Think about your quote.....that was 7 years ago.

I've noticed BT Sport have stopped showing all the live stages. I guess no one was watching it?

[OnlyRally]

other links that might work?

[noel157]

Should be on here but i can't seem to make the stream work today, just me?
http://www.ilive.to/view/57259/RTP_1_%28Portugal%29-live-stream-channel

Me too, just buffers and back to start button again.

[noel157]

Think about your quote.....that was 7 years ago.

I've noticed BT Sport have stopped showing all the live stages. I guess no one was watching it?

I saw that. They have the PS stage tomorrow but nothing today.

http://www.tvguide.co.uk/titlesearch.asp?title=Live%20World%20Rally%20Champ ionship

[OnlyRally]

http://www.tvtuga.com/rtp-1/

[Eli]

Think about your quote.....that was 7 years ago.

I've noticed BT Sport have stopped showing all the live stages. I guess no one was watching it?

you see that's the problem, now one from the top field as it stands can challange Ogier on every single rally, pacewise and consistency...

[noel157]

http://www.tvtuga.com/rtp-1/

Thankyou.

[denkimi]

bring someone who can challange Ogier, like Gronholm (who challanged Loeb back in 2007...)

loeb

[SubaruNorway]

http://www.tvtuga.com/rtp-1/

Did you do something special to make it work? Just loading here

[jonkka]

Just wait it to load

[Doon]

loeb

He got bored, then scared of Ogier/VW. Now in circuit lady cup with F1 rejects and OAPs

[Fast Eddie WRC]

http://www.tvtuga.com/rtp-1/

Not working here :(

[dimviii]

Tanak had a broken antiroll bar at previous stage.

[OnlyRally]

Not working here :(
just press f5 and wait :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Got this one working: http://tvfree2.me/rtp-1-online-em-direto :)

[EightGear]

Tanak stopped.. :(

[Rallyper]

Rumours that Tanak stopped?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tanak stopped at 9.0km, blocked road, Mikko stopped behind him!

Edit - Tanak has stopped and blocked the road for a small time, Mikko had to stop for some time but is now past Tanak.

[dimviii]

havoc...

[KKS]

It's an answer to all you why Evans no2 Ford, and Ott not

[Hasselhoax]

Ogier bringing out the reserve now. Oh man...

[Rallyper]

Seems Mikko and Ketomaa came trough the blocking. So what now? Mikko loosing the race because of circumstances he´s not responsible for? Is there any rule for notional time here?

[jonkka]

Now there's an interesting setting for stewards to come up with notional time for Mikko. Either way, someone's bound to be unhappy.

[Andre Oliveira]

Al-Attyiah overtake Mikko Hirvonen and Jari Ketomaa.

[Rallyper]

Even Ketomaa of course.

[Hasselhoax]

Tanak crash same place as Latvala crash 2009

[satukata]

Now there's an interesting setting for stewards to come up with notional time for Mikko. Either way, someone's bound to be unhappy.

there was yellow flags. so Mikko and Ketomaa get notional time .... Battle continue!!

[Hasselhoax]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58CiU2VNT1I

5.10 in for the 2009 crash

[seb_sh]

Even with notional time for Mikko it looks like Ogier has this in the bag. It was a nice rally so far, too bad a good part of the main contenders went off. Also Hyundai doing well, looks like they'll be on the same level with Citroen and Ford before midseason.

[satukata]

http://www.wrc.com/live-ticker/live_popup_stream.html

liveTV and INTERVIEWS now from service

[Eli]

so how does the leaderboard stand right now?

[SubaruNorway]

http://www.wrc.com/live-ticker/live_popup_stream.html

liveTV and INTERVIEWS now from service

They aren't very good at finding drivers to speak to though so better with the radio interviews

[bluuford]

Tänak had a broken anti rollbar from previous stage, there is a little crest and then sequence of corners.. looks like despite taking it more easy, car still lost the direction:
http://distilleryimage0.s3.amazonaws.com/3aaa2cc8bcbb11e39dde0002c9d3cf84_8.jpg

[RAS007]

so how does the leaderboard stand right now?

Tanak out, Hirvonen lost almost 6 minutes. Rally over.

[makinen_fan]

Tanak out, Hirvonen lost almost 6 minutes. Rally over.

No its not over yet.

Sébastien Ogier@SebOgier1m
Hirvonen's notional time is the same than Seb's one on SS10. O/A 1 OGIER, 2 Hirvo +2.4s, 3 Øst +34.9s, 4 Sordo +52.4s, 5 Neuville +1’20.1

[OnlyRally]

Tanak out, Hirvonen lost almost 6 minutes. Rally over.
excuse me??? thats really what u think??? there was a yellow flag there, no 6 minutes lost for hirvonen. Sometimes people really surprise me!

[RAS007]

No its not over yet.

Sébastien Ogier@SebOgier1m
Hirvonen's notional time is the same than Seb's one on SS10. O/A 1 OGIER, 2 Hirvo +2.4s, 3 Øst +34.9s, 4 Sordo +52.4s, 5 Neuville +1’20.1

Ok, great. Sorry, my mistake.

[Micke_VOC]

Interviews from service:
Mikkos co-driver Jarmo talks about Otts crash on SS10 at Rally de Portugal. #rallydeportugal
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=621102247982672
Pontus Tidemand ( on Swedish)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=621100951316135
" He is happy for the third place because no testing before, not the easiest rally to learn a new car "

[dimviii]

Neuville 3 Soft 2 Hard
Hanninen/Ostberg/Latvala 5 hard
Sordo/Hirvonen/Evans 6 soft
Ogier: 5 soft
Mikkelsen: 4Hard 2S

[satukata]

Neuville 3 Soft 2 Hard
Hanninen/Ostberg/Latvala 5 hard
Sordo/Hirvonen/Evans 6 soft
Ogier: 5 soft
Mikkelsen: 4Hard 2S


evans (soft) faster than latvala (hard)

[dimviii]

Mikkelsen any kind of problems? slow splits.

[dimviii]

Kubi at second exit of road
http://images.wrc.com/News/2418_kubica-saturday-crash-portugal-2014_16_592x333.jpg?

[Eli]

Mikkelsen any kind of problems? slow splits.
power steering problems...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What's going on here ???

World Rally Championship drivers ordered not to talk to TV crews
By David Evans Saturday, April 5th 2014, 13:45 GMT

Manufacturer drivers have been ordered not to speak to television crews in Portugal in the latest escalation in the dispute between the World Rally Championship teams and promoter.

The teams are not happy that they were denied television footage by the WRC Promoter last night and decided unanimously to instruct their drivers and co-drivers not to give interviews to the WRC television crews.

AUTOSPORT understands that in order to get footage from Friday, the teams were required to sign a contract with the promoter. This contract is at the centre of the dispute.

WRC Promoter chief Oliver Ciesla said he was baffled by the manufacturers' stance and implied that those who signed the contract in question would receive it.

"I cannot answer why they are doing this. I simply do not understand it," he said.

"In regard to the footage they are entitled to get by the underlying agreements and in line in what they ask us for before the event - and let's not forget, this footage does not fall out of the sky, we need time to carve it out - whoever ordered it, gets it."

One team member said: "It's a crazy situation, but we had no option. They say we cannot have the clip, so we say: 'OK, so you cannot have the words from the drivers.'

"We don't want to do this, but we have not option."

The teams and the promoter are meeting again this afternoon to try to find a solution.

All of the leading drivers confirmed to AUTOSPORT that they had not given exclusive interviews with WRC television, but they had spoken with WRC Live radio reporters Colin Clark and George Donaldson.

[SubaruNorway]

Why only Henning and Prokop gave interviews at media zone stream today http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113294

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkdsxXJCIAEwji9.png

[jonkka]

Ha-haaa... What a farce!

[Eli]

leak of water or oil for Sordo :(

[AndyRAC]

Oh dear - and still the promotion issues go on. Do Red Bull/ Ciesla actually understand the WRC? They would prefer identikit events - which is not the way to go.

[Eli]

i know it's not the most important thing right now, but if this season continues like this Ogier will take this championship hands down, long time before the end of the season...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2nd quickest time for Mikko in SS11. But losing 7.4s on Ogier ...

Mikko after SS11 : "I couldn't do any better than that. Tires are suffering. I will go flat out as long as the tires are lasting!"

[dimviii]

Mikko tyres after finish
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkdxXS7IUAARGjZ.jpg

[dimviii]

Hanninen again puncture.How many he had till now? 4?

[Eli]

Hanninen again puncture.How many he had till now? 4?

3 i belive

[dimviii]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31.0-8/q84/s720x720/1275882_10152128619173952_8205233159478292854_o.jp g

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tanak said he was too fast for the corner & rolled 3/4 times. He thought he was going to go over the same barrier as Latvala did in 2009.

[bluuford]

Tanak said he was too fast for the corner & rolled 3/4 times. He thought he was going to go over the same barrier as Latvala did in 2009.
Car is almost fixed already.. there was not too much damage:
https://twitter.com/OfficialWRC/status/452153938960461825/photo/1

Sry, this is photo from yesterday :-)

[jonkka]

Would Hyundai want Neuville to move ahead of Sordo? If so, are they doing it gradually so nobody would suspect anything? Or has Neuville just found his speed?

[Eli]

Would Hyundai want Neuville to move ahead of Sordo? If so, are they doing it gradually so nobody would suspect anything? Or has Neuville just found his speed?
very fishy indeed...

[dimviii]

spin or puncture for Neuville? lost some time between splits

[Eli]

broken suspension component...

[dimviii]

so he lost 2 minutes at stage 11 and has to complete and 22 km for stage 12.Will he manage?

[Eli]

yes..seems so...

[dimviii]

Normally Nasser will pass Ketomaa after this stage for some seconds.What a battle.

[Rallyper]

Evans and Mikko showing very good speed right now. The man from outer space is nothing to do about.

[eib1]

no superrally for Ott tomorrow

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkdvgFrIAAAYoig.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bkdu20iIUAAfi_g.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkdtVf0IEAE70mt.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkduFarIIAAgGTO.jpg

[Eli]

live stream that's working for next stage?

[COD]

Normally Nasser will pass Ketomaa after this stage for some seconds.What a battle.

Ketomaa in some trouble, now 1min behind Nasser

[dimviii]

Ketomaa in some trouble, now 1min behind Nasser

from where are you looking the times? here is 2,9 sec behind Nasser which is right according to splits from same site.
http://www.citroenracing.com/live-results/?id=7273&idEpr=SS12&typf=both

[dimviii]

Neuville already loosing 20+ seconds at 1st split....

[Jerra]

http://nowwatchtvlive.com/2013/01/rtp-2-tv-live-streaming-watch-rtp-2-tv-portugal-online-free/

[dimviii]

Evans at stop stage 13
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkeKWQ0IEAEwA20.jpg

[Eli]

http://nowwatchtvlive.com/2013/01/rtp-2-tv-live-streaming-watch-rtp-2-tv-portugal-online-free/
thankyou so much

[dimviii]

thanks Jerra! 2 beers from me.

[dimviii]

Neuville must loose some 4-5 positions at general classification

[jonkka]

Only 2

[dimviii]

Only 2

yep for 9,2 secs he gained 2 positions from Prokop and Hanninen

[Doon]

This will be another nice easy win for Ogier. When will he get bored and go circuit racing? Hopefully he won't stay around to beat all of Loeb's records, although I imagine that's his plan!

[dimviii]

driveshaft for Hanninen

[Jerra]

thanks Jerra! 2 beers from me.

Next year on Acropolis!

[Eli]

This will be another nice easy win for Ogier. When will he get bored and go circuit racing? Hopefully he won't stay around to beat all of Loeb's records, although I imagine that's his plan!
it will take him quite some time at least another 7 years'ish depends on how many rally wins a season..altough stage wins he will beat it well before

[dimviii]

Next year on Acropolis!

of course you are welcome!Only TommeckeB i dont want to come,i own him about 30 beershttp://www.4tforum.gr/phpBB3/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Jerra]

of course you are welcome!Only TommeckeB i dont want to come,i own him about 30 beershttp://www.4tforum.gr/phpBB3/images/smilies/redface.gif

Haha, if he coming you are in serious trouble !

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ok, so did Mikko really have the pace to challenge him or was it just that Seb was only managing the tyres ?

[COD]

from where are you looking the times? here is 2,9 sec behind Nasser which is right according to splits from same site.
http://www.citroenracing.com/live-results/?id=7273&idEpr=SS12&typf=both

http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=13894&Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal-2014

[N.O.T]

This will be another nice easy win for Ogier. When will he get bored and go circuit racing? Hopefully he won't stay around to beat all of Loeb's records, although I imagine that's his plan!

he cannot break all of Loebs records, he does not have the time or the ability... i hope he stays as long as he can win like Loeb did... i want to see a real alpha dog to be champion not the little stray puppies to gather the table scraps of the champion like last year.

[Jafry]

Photos from DAY2 HERE: http://www.rally-mania.cz/photogallery.php?id=1243

[KKS]

What weather will be tomorrow? Prefer for Soft or Hard tyres?

[mousti]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bke5uctCcAAAgSF.jpg:large


Neuville..

[Juha_Koo]

Neuville..

What happened?

[MartinJBC]

pictures from rally de portugal / leg 1 - 2 https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.657486814287983.1073741868.490449754325024&type=1

[SubaruNorway]

What happened?


Knocked his head on something while repairing the car i guess

[Lundefaret]

I think this rally says a lot about why it will be so easy for Ogier to clinch yet another title.

Sordo complained about understeering, on the very same stages he did maybe his best performances ever in the WRC. Maybe he should conclude that his mental image of what is needed to go fast and safe in the WRC is wrong, and that this "understeering" car forced him to drive more corectly?

Neuville has a clearer picture of what is needed, and showed this with some big steps in the right direction at Ford, but will have to keep a very clear head to keep on the right track during not only the development of him self as a driver, but also during the development of the car. Neuville would be the perfect Citroën driver, but the question is if his picture is clear enough to take the Hyundai development in the right direction - time will show.

Hirvonen says between the lines that it is impossible to go faster with the Ford. That would be the same as to say that he would have won if he was in a Volkswagen and Ogier in a Ford. Complete nonsense. Ogier would have won in a Ford or a Citroën. By the way, maybe some of these drivers should start to think about why the fastest drivers (Loeb and Ogier) have better tires (less wear) at the end of the stages than the slower drivers? Is it only the car? Only the set up? Or can it actually be that the driver has something to do with it?
Reading up on the laws of physics can be a good start.

- Tanak shows again that his speed is not sustainable, though a great speed it is.
- Meeke (a very likable guy I have had the pleassure to spend some time with) shows the same, tough at a slower pace at this particular event.
- Latvala is back in bad habits. Not very surprising if you have seen inboard from Mexico. At "stage end" Latvala says that he could push more, but at the same stage he has had several near misses. He can not be aware of what a near miss is, and how often he is close to puncturing, knocking of wheels or even rolling out.
You cant have a shrink telling you what you should improve in your driving style.

Mads Østberg is trying to drive "more like Loeb", the question is how clear a picture he and the team has of exactly how Loeb drove? Citroën was unable to replicate it with Hirvonen. I dont know if this was up to the stubborness of Hirvonen, or lack of driving knowledge of driving technique whitin the team?

Andreas Mikkelsen is maybe the fastest driver in raw speed in the WRC, but currently lacks the ability to drive close enough to his maximim speed on a complete event to be able to challenge for victories.
When he tries to go fast he goes off, and when he backs of to go steady he is sudenly behind Prokop (the 10 minute guy). This is a variable of speed of several seconds pr kilometer, and is a tell tale of his lack of awarness of what he does right, and what he does wrong, both regarding driving technique and pace notes.
When asked by Jost Capito if he went too fast in Mexico, and if that was the reasons for the offs, he answered "no". Hmmm...? What could it be then?
Seeing the inboard one can only conclude that driving that fast with those simple pace notes is a very high risk indeed.

It seams that it is difficult to understand that the goal in rallying is to have the highest sustainable speed, not the highest maximum speed. You should go trough a stage with no more risk of going off the road then when you go to work. The sport with the maximum speed is called hill climbing, rallying is "chess at 200 km/h".

I like Ogier, and I like the fact that a guy like him exists after Loeb, so the drivers dont forget that there is another way of doing things. He stretches the bar, but sadly out of reach of everybody else...

I actually wonder what Ogier thinks about this. If he goes to bed each night reading another chapter in the Black Book he recieved from Loeb, and goes to sleep with a smile on his face safely aware of the fact that the only other person in the world aware of this "secret" driving technique called "Nose End First" have switched to circuit racing, and will never again be back to challenge him.
Then falling to sleep dreaming happy dreams of easy tasks like stealing candy from little children, or winning rounds in the WRC championship?

Maybe it is time for the other drivers to wake up?

[bluuford]

What weather will be tomorrow? Prefer for Soft or Hard tyres?

Should be beach weather tomorrow:-) Mostly sunny, chilly in the morning +13..+16 and warmer during the PS- +17..+19 I would say it is definitely hard tires.

[bluuford]

- Tanak shows again that his speed is not sustainable, though a great speed it is.

Seems that it was again a bit late note by co-driver. He said that they need more time to practice (His codriver had nearly 0% experience in WRC) but they do not have much time for practice. Looking at his speed then I belive that Tänak+Ford+some more rallyes is the only realistic opposition for the Ogier. Remember that it was his frist rally with WRC on gravel since neary 1.5 years, recce was done in the condititions where they barely see any road and he was going almost the same speed as Ogier. Not only with better roadconditions but also today, until antirollbar broke. To me he has made a huge step forward compared to 2012 (then he was sometimes quite fast and crashing a lot, now he is constantly fast and crashes are not caused by overdriving.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think this rally says a lot about why it will be so easy for Ogier to clinch yet another title.

Sordo complained about understeering, on the very same stages he did maybe his best performances ever in the WRC. Maybe he should conclude that his mental image of what is needed to go fast and safe in the WRC is wrong, and that this "understeering" car forced him to drive more corectly?

Neuville has a clearer picture of what is needed, and showed this with some big steps in the right direction at Ford, but will have to keep a very clear head to keep on the right track during not only the development of him self as a driver, but also during the development of the car. Neuville would be the perfect Citroën driver, but the question is if his picture is clear enough to take the Hyundai development in the right direction - time will show.

Hirvonen says between the lines that it is impossible to go faster with the Ford. That would be the same as to say that he would have won if he was in a Volkswagen and Ogier in a Ford. Complete nonsense. Ogier would have won in a Ford or a Citroën. By the way, maybe some of these drivers should start to think about why the fastest drivers (Loeb and Ogier) have better tires (less wear) at the end of the stages than the slower drivers? Is it only the car? Only the set up? Or can it actually be that the driver has something to do with it?
Reading up on the laws of physics can be a good start.

- Tanak shows again that his speed is not sustainable, though a great speed it is.
- Meeke (a very likable guy I have had the pleassure to spend some time with) shows the same, tough at a slower pace at this particular event.
- Latvala is back in bad habits. Not very surprising if you have seen inboard from Mexico. At "stage end" Latvala says that he could push more, but at the same stage he has had several near misses. He can not be aware of what a near miss is, and how often he is close to puncturing, knocking of wheels or even rolling out.
You cant have a shrink telling you what you should improve in your driving style.

Mads Østberg is trying to drive "more like Loeb", the question is how clear a picture he and the team has of exactly how Loeb drove? Citroën was unable to replicate it with Hirvonen. I dont know if this was up to the stubborness of Hirvonen, or lack of driving knowledge of driving technique whitin the team?

Andreas Mikkelsen is maybe the fastest driver in raw speed in the WRC, but currently lacks the ability to drive close enough to his maximim speed on a complete event to be able to challenge for victories.
When he tries to go fast he goes off, and when he backs of to go steady he is sudenly behind Prokop (the 10 minute guy). This is a variable of speed of several seconds pr kilometer, and is a tell tale of his lack of awarness of what he does right, and what he does wrong, both regarding driving technique and pace notes.
When asked by Jost Capito if he went too fast in Mexico, and if that was the reasons for the offs, he answered "no". Hmmm...? What could it be then?
Seeing the inboard one can only conclude that driving that fast with those simple pace notes is a very high risk indeed.

It seams that it is difficult to munderstand that the goal in rallying is to have the highest sustainable speed, not the highest maximum speed. You should go trough a stage with no more risk of going off the road then when you go to work. The sport with the maximum speed is called hill climbing, rallying is "chess at 200 km/h".

I like Ogier, and I like the fact that a guy like him exists after Loeb, so the drivers dont forget that there is another way of doing things. He stretches the bar, but sadly out of reach of everybody else...

I actually wonder what Ogier thinks about this. If he goes to bed each night reading another chapter in the Black Book he recieved from Loeb, and goes to sleep with a smile on his face safely aware of the fact that the only other person in the world aware of this "secret" driving technique called "Nose End First" have switched to circuit racing, and will never again be back to challenge him.
Then falling to sleep dreaming happy dreams of easy tasks like stealing candy from little children, or winning rounds in the WRC championship?

Maybe it is time for the other drivers to wake up?

Great post.

[Sardalense]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/q81/s720x720/10007050_10152318635764244_8600589937586344537_n.j pg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/q73/s720x720/10178147_10152318641394244_806417309129188064_n.jp g

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1.0-9/q73/s720x720/10245508_10152318640389244_5276135597659627832_n.j pg

My photos from today part 1:)

[Sardalense]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/q75/s720x720/10245359_10152318639004244_5377118137726452991_n.j pg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1.0-9/q80/s720x720/10003113_10152318634094244_7187992679787154652_n.j pg

part 2/2

[dimviii]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113305

[stefanvv]

Don't struggle too much, Ogier is the only driver who actually "drives" the car, not being driven by it;)

BTW Loeb's and Ogier's driving styles are completely different, Loeb's lines are much more "smooth", while Ogier's are quite "rough".

Here some videos from generous me (without any beers) (on the last one you can notice what I mean at the post begin):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EJ9fWiUouU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4NmTs4FHdk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcIAGIsdzuY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m66_5k5ozs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDI1gM3VS_k

[denkimi]

Don't struggle too much, Ogier is the only driver who actually "drives" the car, not being driven by it;)

BTW Loeb's and Ogier's driving styles are completely different, Loeb's lines are much more "smooth", while Ogier's are quite "rough".

ogier has several "hot moments" in almost every rally. loeb had those rarely.

based on the footage i have seen ogier was very lucky at least 3 times in monte, ran out of luck in sweden and got lucky at least once in mexico.

[N.O.T]

ogier has several "hot moments" in almost every rally. loeb had those rarely.

based on the footage i have seen ogier was very lucky at least 3 times in monte, ran out of luck in sweden and got lucky at least once in mexico.

i think every driver has a couple of lucky moments in every rally...it is impossible to try and be fast without close moments through 300kms for special stages.

[stefanvv]

I think this rally says a lot about why it will be so easy for Ogier to clinch yet another title.

Sordo complained about understeering, on the very same stages he did maybe his best performances ever in the WRC. Maybe he should conclude that his mental image of what is needed to go fast and safe in the WRC is wrong, and that this "understeering" car forced him to drive more corectly?

Neuville has a clearer picture of what is needed, and showed this with some big steps in the right direction at Ford, but will have to keep a very clear head to keep on the right track during not only the development of him self as a driver, but also during the development of the car. Neuville would be the perfect Citroën driver, but the question is if his picture is clear enough to take the Hyundai development in the right direction - time will show.

Hirvonen says between the lines that it is impossible to go faster with the Ford. That would be the same as to say that he would have won if he was in a Volkswagen and Ogier in a Ford. Complete nonsense. Ogier would have won in a Ford or a Citroën. By the way, maybe some of these drivers should start to think about why the fastest drivers (Loeb and Ogier) have better tires (less wear) at the end of the stages than the slower drivers? Is it only the car? Only the set up? Or can it actually be that the driver has something to do with it?
Reading up on the laws of physics can be a good start.

- Tanak shows again that his speed is not sustainable, though a great speed it is.
- Meeke (a very likable guy I have had the pleassure to spend some time with) shows the same, tough at a slower pace at this particular event.
- Latvala is back in bad habits. Not very surprising if you have seen inboard from Mexico. At "stage end" Latvala says that he could push more, but at the same stage he has had several near misses. He can not be aware of what a near miss is, and how often he is close to puncturing, knocking of wheels or even rolling out.
You cant have a shrink telling you what you should improve in your driving style.

Mads Østberg is trying to drive "more like Loeb", the question is how clear a picture he and the team has of exactly how Loeb drove? Citroën was unable to replicate it with Hirvonen. I dont know if this was up to the stubborness of Hirvonen, or lack of driving knowledge of driving technique whitin the team?

Andreas Mikkelsen is maybe the fastest driver in raw speed in the WRC, but currently lacks the ability to drive close enough to his maximim speed on a complete event to be able to challenge for victories.
When he tries to go fast he goes off, and when he backs of to go steady he is sudenly behind Prokop (the 10 minute guy). This is a variable of speed of several seconds pr kilometer, and is a tell tale of his lack of awarness of what he does right, and what he does wrong, both regarding driving technique and pace notes.
When asked by Jost Capito if he went too fast in Mexico, and if that was the reasons for the offs, he answered "no". Hmmm...? What could it be then?
Seeing the inboard one can only conclude that driving that fast with those simple pace notes is a very high risk indeed.

It seams that it is difficult to understand that the goal in rallying is to have the highest sustainable speed, not the highest maximum speed. You should go trough a stage with no more risk of going off the road then when you go to work. The sport with the maximum speed is called hill climbing, rallying is "chess at 200 km/h".

I like Ogier, and I like the fact that a guy like him exists after Loeb, so the drivers dont forget that there is another way of doing things. He stretches the bar, but sadly out of reach of everybody else...

I actually wonder what Ogier thinks about this. If he goes to bed each night reading another chapter in the Black Book he recieved from Loeb, and goes to sleep with a smile on his face safely aware of the fact that the only other person in the world aware of this "secret" driving technique called "Nose End First" have switched to circuit racing, and will never again be back to challenge him.
Then falling to sleep dreaming happy dreams of easy tasks like stealing candy from little children, or winning rounds in the WRC championship?

Maybe it is time for the other drivers to wake up?

Interesting post, but I disagree with some things:
Sordo has complained about indersteering - fine, but that's matter of setup of the car, not the car itself. He is very fast driver on asphalt, probably now is his last chance to prove himself at gravel too. I'm impressed with his performance at Portugal.

Neuville - hmm, promising driver for sure, he had his chance with Citroen if You don't remember and crashed a lot, yes, only his first year, but he said himself he is much more comfortable to drive Ford. I don't know how good is to develop a car to be honest, that's why Hyunday has number of drivers to do that job. Neuville is just their N1 driver for this season.

I followed the Rally closely, and the only problem Hirvonen had issue about is worn tyres, not that he can't go faster with Ford - he can't go faster with any other car. He had bever been good with saving his tyres, that's for sure.

AFAIK Tanak had some damage to the car while ge gone off. No excuses for Mexico though. Impressive speed this year though and probably he learned from his past mistakes, at least seem so from spectator point of view.

Latvala - well, the best of the rest. Its not bad habbit here, he had understeering issues AFAIK with different tyres on both sides of the car. I see some progress from him this year, but still some work to do with getting use to it.

Citroen did not try to replicate anything with Hirvonen, he was fast enough 12' on some events, it is just his limit. They said he tried to adapt to the car as found it more difficult to drive than Ford AFAIR, but I think that was just dust in people's eyes. He hadn't been knocked out by Loeb 12', it was the next year when Ogier was unreachable.

Mikkelsen is mistery for me - he probably believed himself too much after Sweden and tried to do the impossible in Mexico. Now seem to be "mentored" by the team, at least 1st day seemed so.

"Rallying is chess at 200 km/h" - definitelly not. In chess you can see the moves of your opponet, that looks more like circuit racing for me. Well now driver's can watch in some degree the splits of their competition, but that has nothing to do with original idea of Rallying. In Rallying the only "enemy" you have is the TIME. So original Rallying is actually about maximum speed you can achieve.

I have no idea what Black Book is TBH. What Ogier things about this - well he thinks he deserved it long time ago when Loeb was still competing, no regrets I suppose. Ogier's driving style comparing to Loeb I commented on my previous post, it has nothing to do with circuits, but you're right about the laws of Physics - they are Universal, its all about keeping the right balance on the road to achieve maximum momentum.

I don't thing the other drivers can do much about it, its just the way it is.

[stefanvv]

based on the footage i have seen ogier was very lucky at least 3 times in monte

Sure, trying to achieve the impossible and compensate the huge disadvantage after 1st day. With some more risks, the impossible appeared possible, when you risk, there is a chance for a flaw, especially at Monte - he was fortunate too - no flaw happened. BTW he compensated lot of disadvantage on France last year too, but that was different beer, because it was not Monte with its unpredictible conditions.

[lewalcindor]

"Rallying is chess at 200 km/h" - definitelly not. In chess you can see the moves of your opponet, that looks more like circuit racing for me. Well now driver's can watch in some degree the splits of their competition, but that has nothing to do with original idea of Rallying. In Rallying the only "enemy" you have is the TIME. So original Rallying is actually about maximum speed you can achieve.

I think you're taking it too literally. No, rally drivers can't physically see what the other drivers are doing like you can in circuit racing (the nearby other drivers, anyway). But the drivers can still have a good idea of what their opponents are doing through the splits, through the info that his team relays via radio, and through background info on their opponents' strengths and tendencies. You're still "seeing" what the other drivers are doing and thinking about (like when they are about to go on the attack, for example).

And though rallying (and all auto racing, let's be honest) is theoretically about driving as fast as possible and getting your best time, the drivers clearly can't go on maximum attack all the time. You mentioned one reason yourself: tire management. Mikko Hirvonen could very well be as fast as Ogier or Loeb if tire management were not an issue. But it is, so his driving style tends to wear down on the tires before they can be changed at service.

Another factor is each driver's specific endurance level, that is, how long he can sustain driving at his maximum ability. One driver may a bit slower than another driver at their respective maximum, but if the first driver is able to sustain his attack longer than the other driver, he can use that to his advantage. If the two drivers are separated by just a few seconds, the first driver can put more pressure on the second driver by driving to his maximum, which then forces the second driver is to go close to his maximum to keep up (or keep his lead). But after a while, the first driver is still driving fine at his maximum, but the second driver starts to make a few mistakes here and there because he's starting to lose concentration. Eventually, the second driver may make a big mistake and crash or spin out. When the first driver hears of the crash over the radio, he can then dial back his driving to a safer and more sustainable level.

Likewise, the drivers' individual abilities on different surfaces plays into the team and driver choosing when to attack, and when to "cruise" and try to limit mistakes.

Another factor is the driver's position in a rally. If the leader has a decent lead, he will try to preserve that lead for the win, and that usually means "cruising" by driving at a fast enough speed to maintain the lead, but not so fast as as to increase the risk of making a mistake. If the driver in second is within striking distance to the leader, he will then attempt to attack when he can while trying to limit his mistakes when he can. But if the leader has too large of a lead to overcome, then the second place driver will also "cruise" and try to maintain his pace for a second place finish.

And finally, there's championship points. If every rally was a race by itself with no effect on an overall championship, then the drivers should go all out and drive to their maximum abilities (within reason). But as it is, winning a rally is a nice prize, but the drivers and teams are mostly fighting for points to earn the bigger prize at the end. Going all out may allow you to win and earn the most points for a particular rally, but it may also lead to a crash and retirement and net you zero points. So in essence, the points race is another chess game that's being played over the course of a season.

So call it a chess game or whatever you would like (I would call it a game of risk management), but rally drivers and teams are indeed playing it. And the same goes for any auto racing type that's not an outright sprint. There's a reason that circuit drivers don't put up the same lap times during a race as they do in qualifying or time attacks, and it's not just because there are other cars on the track.

[litifeta]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are all armchair experts ... let's not forget that. From the onboards I have seen this year I would say Mikko is very fast, and I could not see a moment where he could have gained an extra tenth. TN seems to me to have a style of driving from the onboards similar to the way Loeb drove. And watching the onboards from FAFE I could see how Ogier is so much faster. He rarely takes his foot off the accelerator. He even accelerates between gears downshifting. With Sordo there was a noticeable gap between his foot off the accelerator, and the next boost. With Ogier, he does not lose much speed at all. He uses the power and compression to steer and drift the car much better.

[Jerra]

http://nowwatchtvlive.com/2013/01/rtp-2-tv-live-streaming-watch-rtp-2-tv-portugal-online-free/

[Andre Oliveira]

Sordo out before stage.

[litifeta]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10177393_10152398602189973_1379646591_n.jpg

good to see people caring and sharing

[Eli]

Sordo out before stage.
broken driveshaft, god damn it!!!!

[litifeta]

Damn shame for Dani. He has done a great job.

[SubaruNorway]

Hänninen crashed on the stream http://tvfree2.me/rtp-2-online-em-direto

[Andre Oliveira]

Hänninen :(

[jonkka]

Hyundais dropping left and right...

[Eli]

certanly has, cruel ending, he should get another chance on a gravel event...

[litifeta]

Ostberg, Mikko and Ogier will just play it safe. No threat to any of them.

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkhcZymIgAAORm5.jpg

[Franky]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10177393_10152398602189973_1379646591_n.jpg

good to see people caring and sharing

Dimvii's beer transport system?

[dimviii]

^^^^http://www.4tforum.gr/phpBB3/images/smilies/haha4.gif^^^^

Tom Cave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13TJj4Shh2s

[Hasselhoax]

Let's see if someone pulls off a Rautenbach/Wilson on the next stage

[dimviii]

new photos at borl
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bestofrallylive/

[Lundefaret]

Explanations regarding my last post to the "non believers":

To stefanvv:
Sordo: The question is, how can a driver be complaining about anything if he wins stages against Ogier? Instead of thinking that "this car understeers way to much", maybe he should be thinking "you actually have to have this amount of understeer to have enough rear end grip to ensure enough aceleration out of the corners"

Neuville: You have to look at Neuville before and after the second part of the last season as two different drivers. Suddenly he started unlocking the code. The question is, has he enough understanding of the code/"Nose End First" to develop him self even further in a team that also develops a totaly new car?
Citroën has a car that is "ready made" to drive this driving style, therefore he would be perfect in a Citroën now, not earlier.

Hirvonen: To much energy in the wrong places equals excesive tire ware, higher risks, and slower speed. If you look at Hirvonens offs they are directly related to his driving style.
Could Hirvonen be faster? Yes, sure, but he then needs to adjust his driving style acordingly.

Tanak: His speed is highly impressive, but his risk management is not. In rallying even your pace note strategy has to be of the kind that premits the codriver to do small mistakes whitout the end result being an off. You have to understand the risks, and manage those in a way that ensures you getting al the way to the finnish in every rally.
Tanaks own explanations is highly illogical: He "blames it" on his codriver making a mistake, and then defends the codriver since he has so little experience.
If the codriver has so little experience that you yourself understand why he can make those kind of mistake, you should have managed this risk with a better pace note strategy in the first place.

Latvala: His "progress" from last year is that he is not trying to win each corner of each rally, but he is taking it slower. If going slower is progress, then I have a different view of progress than you.
If you messured distance traveled by each driver on each rally, and messured the average speed in corolation to the distance, Latvala would probably be the fastest. But his driving style would not be the smartest.

Citroën replicating Loeb: If you have a driver that have won the WRC championship nine times in a row, you atleast should try to replicate that particular strategy when a new driver is taking over the role as team leader. The results in Citroën "post Loeb" and "post Ogier" shows that to much of the knowledge rested with these to drivers, beqause the results show that they werent able to replicate it.
You find the same situation in Volkswagen. Without Ogier the team would be just "one of the others", and we actually would have a real fight for the championship. The only problem is: We have ONE driver that actually knows a little bit (not as much as Loeb) about what is needed to win WRC rallies.

Mikkelsen a mystery? There is no more mistery than the fact that he has the speed, but not the understanding of two things:
1) Where the speed comes from.
2) How to manage the risks involved.

"Rallying is chess at 200 km/h": What I am trying to explain with this quote is:
- Rallying needs a lot of brain power.
- Rallying is a lot about chosing the right strategy at the right time.
- Rallying is a lot abut risk management.
- Rallying is about "outsmarting" not only your competitors, but also the stages, etc.
- But in contrast to chess, in rallying you only have one competitor: yourselves.

The black book: This is a common phrase used mostly in The States, and in American movies, symbolising important secrets that is handed down from one man to another. For example about how to pick up girls.
Loeb handed a lot of his "secrets" down to Ogier, in exhange of Ogier letting him win his eight championship. When Loeb decided to drive yet another year, it all famously went to pieces, and Citroën lost its new star to Volkswagen the year after.
And yes, The Laws Of Physics are Universal, even for Ogier.

You say: "I don't thing the other drivers can do much about it, its just the way it is."
Well, they cant do much about it when they dont know what to look for and where to look.

Driving styles: Loeb vs Ogier
Was Loeb cleaner? Yes
Did Loeb have more tools in his toolbox? Yes
Did Loeb have an even higher understanding of the "secret" of "Nose End First": Yes.
Is Ogier more stereothypical: Yes
Is it the same general driving style: Yes
Look at it this way: Both Loeb and Ogier speaks the same language, but Ogier with a different prenaunsiation and a smaller vocabulary.
But this is difficut to understand if you dont know what to look for:
Tip:To identify this you have to look for the similarities, not the differences.

To lewalcindor: You are right in your understanding of my quote "rallying is like chess in 200 km/h". Rallying is risk management and strategy at high speed, requiring a lot of brain power.

To litifeta: You say watching the inboards of Hirvonen that you dont find a single momemt he could have gained an extra thenth: Does that mean that it is impossible to drive faster than Mikko Hirvonen (lets say if you put Ogier in the same car with the same set up, would he drive at the excact same speed), or does it mean that you dont know what to look for? When I watch inboards of Hirvonen I see A LOT of places he coud have gained extra thenths and lowered his risk, AND saved his tires.

To N.O.T: "i think every driver has a couple of lucky moments in every rally...it is impossible to try and be fast without close moments through 300kms for special stages."
Are you really sure about this? If we say that each rally is about 300 km in lenght, and each season has about 15 rallyies, that would be about 4500 km. If we multiply that with 9, we have 40.500 km. And then we can add testing etc. We maybe end up with something like 70.000 km or more. (its probably a lot more)
If we say that an average road car driver drives about 15.000 km a year, we then have about 5 years of driving.
If we then reflect on the amount of times Loeb went of the road during his 9 WRC Championships. You would then find that Loebs risk was no higher than that of a regular car driver driving the same amount of km on regular roads. And that is going at it at close to maximum speed on the tuffest surfaces in the world trying win championships.
This surely proves that it has to be another way to win rallies and championships than taking high risks?

Rallying is risk management and strategy at 200 km/h, and there is only one person in the current championship that has read the game rules. I bet he sleeps with a smile on his face. And I beg the other drivers to WAKE UP!

[jonkka]

Try breaking up your posts to a smaller chunks. It's quite a task to read such long one (I did not bother).

[jonkka]

Mikko is doing the wrong thing: Ostberg pushes, so Mikko thinks he has to respond. But he has big enough lead over Ostberg so he could take it easy in order to save tyres to power stage.

[Mise]

Try breaking up your posts to a smaller chunks. It's quite a task to read such long one (I did not bother).

I did. Lot's of good points on the post. Try read in smaller chunks Jonkka :D

[litifeta]

Good to see Mikko and Mads on the podium.

[Eli]

Good to see Mikko and Mads on the podium.
shhshh don't jynx it!!!

[dimviii]

Gilbert after crash with a car of organisation of rally Portugal
https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/p180x540/1002665_10152002393525754_1509184394_n.jpg

[Zeakiwi]

Loeb will be the WTCC today?

[Tom206wrc]

Loeb will be the WTCC today?


First round of WTCC in Morocco is next week ;)

[Lundefaret]

Try breaking up your posts to a smaller chunks. It's quite a task to read such long one (I did not bother).

So jonkka, what do you do if something requires that you read a book? Cut it up in small pieces and read them one at a time? Or do you write to the authour telling him to write shorter?

If you are not interested enough in the subject to read what would equal about one page in a book (a real book with writing, not those with mostly pictures), then you are probably not a member of the demografic group I am aiming for, and thats okay by me. I will continue to write long posts, and you will continue to read what you choose. Hope we still can be friends:)

[stefanvv]

I think you're taking it too literally. No, rally drivers can't physically see what the other drivers are doing like you can in circuit racing (the nearby other drivers, anyway). But the drivers can still have a good idea of what their opponents are doing through the splits, through the info that his team relays via radio, and through background info on their opponents' strengths and tendencies. You're still "seeing" what the other drivers are doing and thinking about (like when they are about to go on the attack, for example).

And though rallying (and all auto racing, let's be honest) is theoretically about driving as fast as possible and getting your best time, the drivers clearly can't go on maximum attack all the time. You mentioned one reason yourself: tire management. Mikko Hirvonen could very well be as fast as Ogier or Loeb if tire management were not an issue. But it is, so his driving style tends to wear down on the tires before they can be changed at service.

Another factor is each driver's specific endurance level, that is, how long he can sustain driving at his maximum ability. One driver may a bit slower than another driver at their respective maximum, but if the first driver is able to sustain his attack longer than the other driver, he can use that to his advantage. If the two drivers are separated by just a few seconds, the first driver can put more pressure on the second driver by driving to his maximum, which then forces the second driver is to go close to his maximum to keep up (or keep his lead). But after a while, the first driver is still driving fine at his maximum, but the second driver starts to make a few mistakes here and there because he's starting to lose concentration. Eventually, the second driver may make a big mistake and crash or spin out. When the first driver hears of the crash over the radio, he can then dial back his driving to a safer and more sustainable level.

Likewise, the drivers' individual abilities on different surfaces plays into the team and driver choosing when to attack, and when to "cruise" and try to limit mistakes.

Another factor is the driver's position in a rally. If the leader has a decent lead, he will try to preserve that lead for the win, and that usually means "cruising" by driving at a fast enough speed to maintain the lead, but not so fast as as to increase the risk of making a mistake. If the driver in second is within striking distance to the leader, he will then attempt to attack when he can while trying to limit his mistakes when he can. But if the leader has too large of a lead to overcome, then the second place driver will also "cruise" and try to maintain his pace for a second place finish.

And finally, there's championship points. If every rally was a race by itself with no effect on an overall championship, then the drivers should go all out and drive to their maximum abilities (within reason). But as it is, winning a rally is a nice prize, but the drivers and teams are mostly fighting for points to earn the bigger prize at the end. Going all out may allow you to win and earn the most points for a particular rally, but it may also lead to a crash and retirement and net you zero points. So in essence, the points race is another chess game that's being played over the course of a season.

So call it a chess game or whatever you would like (I would call it a game of risk management), but rally drivers and teams are indeed playing it. And the same goes for any auto racing type that's not an outright sprint. There's a reason that circuit drivers don't put up the same lap times during a race as they do in qualifying or time attacks, and it's not just because there are other cars on the track.

Some very good points there, I was thinking "more directly" to current situation, a driver can react more quickly on circuits - like block his opponent's move for example, in more "general plan" You're right. Don't forget though in circuit racing drivers also have to manage their tyres, then the game is transferred in the box, some are shorter with less worn tyres and reused for next stint, longer stints, etc.

[Franky]

So jonkka, what do you do if something requires that you read a book? Cut it up in small pieces and read them one at a time?


Technically chapters are small pieces of a book.

[dimviii]

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/q77/s720x720/1897795_584135465016568_1966168452_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/1560689_584135475016567_558922290_n.jpg

[jonkka]

I did. Lot's of good points on the post. Try read in smaller chunks Jonkka :D

My comment was to mr Lundefaret. You know, it's possible to quote and reply to other posts one at a time.

[litifeta]

While all the discussion about drivers and their talent is interesting, it is very polarised.

Most world class sports people will tell you that talent will only get you so far. The rest is self belief, commitment, and courage.

If your mind is not in the right space, all the talent in the world will not get you anywhere. Ogier believes he is entitled. That belief raises his enthusiasm, concentration, and courage.

You must believe you are a winner to be a winner.

[jonkka]

So jonkka, what do you do if something requires that you read a book? Cut it up in small pieces and read them one at a time? Or do you write to the authour telling him to write shorter?

Reading a book is one-way experience, I have no way to reply to the author. Online discussion is, or at least should be, two-way communication.

Also, when I read a book, it's one I have chosen, usually after careful consideration and one I think I can enjoy. Online discussion is not about literary experience and enjoyment in form of story telling, rather it's discussion where opinions are debated - or at least discussed. I can remember a good book years from now but I don't think anyone remembers even a good discussion next week.


If you are not interested enough in the subject to read what would equal about one page in a book (a real book with writing, not those with mostly pictures), then you are probably not a member of the demografic group I am aiming for, and thats okay by me. I will continue to write long posts, and you will continue to read what you choose. Hope we still can be friends:)

Now, which way you think is more beneficial for the readers? Your way, where you take multiple posts and write a long reply to each of them in a single posting without quoting, or my way, where I take single post, quote the relevant part of it and say what I have to say in a single post before repeating that for the next?

Quoting provides the anchor point to the readers who know to which post and part of that post one is replying to. That post may be several pages back (and hence, several days old). If you do not want to quote and write several posts, it is your prerogative.

[Eli]

only 5 minutes to go for the PS..bet VW will win...let's hope i'm wrong...

[Jerra]

Live

http://www.tvtuga.com/rtp-1/

[Eli]

keeps buffering..

[SubaruNorway]

Quit the bitch slapping and just watch the stage will you :p
http://cricfree.tv/bt-sport-2.php

[litifeta]

Hyundai drive train needs a lot of work

[Langdale Forest]

what is that cliking sound on the livestream?

[Eli]

what is that cliking sound on the livestream?

chat box

[Langdale Forest]

I have turned it off

[Rallyper]

One more boring victory. The man from outer space should participate in Universal Rally Championship instead of WRC....

[Eli]

another win, another power stage win, as the season will progress he will clinch the title in australia as it seems for now

[Rallyper]

Congrats to all drivers finishing, but especially to Mads and Mikko, doing a great job in the shadow of the new master.

[stefanvv]

Is it just mine impression, or Evans actually raised his pace after 1st day's disaster?
Congrats to the Winner of course, he is just collecting to fruits of his tallent and hard work without much troubles. The troubles other drivers are making themselves sometimes.

[Lundefaret]

While all the discussion about drivers and their talent is interesting, it is very polarised.

Most world class sports people will tell you that talent will only get you so far. The rest is self belief, commitment, and courage.

If your mind is not in the right space, all the talent in the world will not get you anywhere. Ogier believes he is entitled. That belief raises his enthusiasm, concentration, and courage.

You must believe you are a winner to be a winner.

If you want to believe modern science regarding what it takes to be a master of your field it states that you have to practice (with the correct practice) for at least 10.000 hours, wich is the same as 20 hours a week during a period of 10 years.
If you take the different aspects of rallying in account and do a simple categorisation, you will end up with something like this:
1) Driving technique
2) Pace notes
3) Startegy/risk management
4) Car set up

If you want to be a master of all these fields it would take about 40.000 hours, or 40 hours a week for 20 years. And all the practise has to be the correct practice.

This is almost impossible, and this again underlines that every driver has more potential, even Loeb, ans especially Ogier.

To put it this way, what would have the best effect speeding up Jari Matti Latvala:
1) Give him more belief in him self?
2) Give him more currage?
3) Give him more comitment?
4) Give him more enthusiasm?
5) Or give him more understanding/knowledge/competence in the four fields of driving technique, pace notes, startegy/risk management and car set up?

[AdvEvo]

Ogier and VW are playing with all the other contenders. It s just like Mercedes F1 now. Were all other drivers/teams needs to take very high risk and go to full 100% to even be close to VW. At VW the drivers can go 90% and still be faster then anybody else. You need to stay on the road of course. Ogier can win every rally, driving on 90%. Ford, Citroen and Hyundai needs much better cars and drivers who can stay on the road!

[Lundefaret]

To stefanvv:

I think that Evans comment on stage end of the power stage answers that. He said that the he in first part of the stage moved the car around to much, and that he drove better in the second part.

Important notices about this comment:
1) He reflects on his own inputs in the car, not the set up, tires etc. This is the correct attitude, and the only way to get faster.
- Your job as a driver is to improve your selvf.
- The job of improving the car is the responsability of the engineer.

2) He has an understanding that the car should not "move about" more than nessecary. The drivers are playing with a mass of about 1300 kg. It is a wise tought to move this heavy item in the optimal direction for the optimal amount of time. Every time this mass is heading in an unwanted direction you have to use energy to correct it. This will slow down the speed in the direction of travel, and will also lead to excessive component wear, including of course the tires.

To answer your question: Yes, Evans is picking up speed, and he is doing it beqause of all the right reasons. But he still has A LOT to learn.

[AdvEvo]

You should put rally drivers on a race track and learn how to drive clean. Slides costs time. Wheelspin costs time. Only slide when it s necessary to keep the nose in.

[stefanvv]

8! With @SebOgier’s win @rallydeportugal, #Volkswagen equal a #Citroën record with 8 #WRC victories in a row. #proud #PoloRWRC

I think VW will do at least twice of this, what do you think?

[Lundefaret]

Ogier and VW are playing with all the other contenders. It s just like Mercedes F1 now. Were all other drivers/teams needs to take very high risk and go to full 100% to even be close to VW. At VW the drivers can go 90% and still be faster then anybody else. You need to stay on the road of course. Ogier can win every rally, driving on 90%. Ford, Citroen and Hyundai needs much better cars and drivers who can stay on the road!

Ogier and VW are not playing with the other contenders. Ogier is, regardless of wich car he is in. If you take Ogier out of VW, VW is left wanting.

And no, rallydrivers can not drive like the "classic" racing driver, beqause they have to have risk management as a much higher priority. The latest rule changes regarding tires/downforce etc etc, has actually forced racing drivers to drive more like Loeb (Nose End First)
Race car driving is changing in the direction away from the classic "smooth line drivers" like Jenson Button, towards the Nose End First driving style.
In Formula 1/racing they call it "straight line driving", and "straight line accelerating", and the guru is Rob Wilson.

[Rallyper]

If you want to believe modern science regarding what it takes to be a master of your field it states that you have to practice (with the correct practice) for at least 10.000 hours, wich is the same as 20 hours a week during a period of 10 years.
If you take the different aspects of rallying in account and do a simple categorisation, you will end up with something like this:
1) Driving technique
2) Pace notes
3) Startegy/risk management


4) Car set up

If you want to be a master of all these fields it would take about 40.000 hours, or 40 hours a week for 20 years. And all the practise has to be the correct practice.

This is almost impossible, and this again underlines that every driver has more potential, even Loeb, ans especially Ogier.

To put it this way, what would have the best effect speeding up Jari Matti Latvala:
1) Give him more belief in him self?
2) Give him more currage?
3) Give him more comitment?
4) Give him more enthusiasm?
5) Or give him more understanding/knowledge/competence in the four fields of driving technique, pace notes, startegy/risk management and car set up?

What you forget is the most important besides all you counted up:

MONEY!!! (Or sponsors with money regardless you crash all the time) Without that all above isn´t counted for anything but maybe your home village rally once a year.

[stefanvv]

To stefanvv:

I think that Evans comment on stage end of the power stage answers that. He said that the he in first part of the stage moved the car around to much, and that he drove better in the second part.

Important notices about this comment:
1) He reflects on his own inputs in the car, not the set up, tires etc. This is the correct attitude, and the only way to get faster.
- Your job as a driver is to improve your selvf.
- The job of improving the car is the responsability of the engineer.

2) He has an understanding that the car should not "move about" more than nessecary. The drivers are playing with a mass of about 1300 kg. It is a wise tought to move this heavy item in the optimal direction for the optimal amount of time. Every time this mass is heading in an unwanted direction you have to use energy to correct it. This will slow down the speed in the direction of travel, and will also lead to excessive component wear, including of course the tires.

To answer your question: Yes, Evans is picking up speed, and he is doing it beqause of all the right reasons. But he still has A LOT to learn.

Yes, good for him realizes that on-time. In this way he can avoid mistakes (also improve himself, sure), like fresh example lets take JML's off.
Don't agree car development is responsibility of the engineers at all. Actually a driver dezines the car behaviour, the quality is then responsibility of the engineers. Sr. Sainz dezined Polo R WRC's behaviour (later Ogier - as fresh example, Loeb & Citroen are different "beers" from near past).

[Andre Oliveira]

Alongside WRC, on day 2, has Promotion with the 3 regionals championship: http://ewrc-results.com/foto.php?e=14712&t=Vodafone-Rali-de-Portugal-Promocão-2014

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rali_de_portugal_promo_227_o_2014/pco_dsc_4969.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rali_de_portugal_promo_227_o_2014/pco_dsc_5013.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rali_de_portugal_promo_227_o_2014/pco_dsc_5055.jpg

[Karukera]

8! With @SebOgier’s win @rallydeportugal, #Volkswagen equal a #Citroën record with 8 #WRC victories in a row. #proud #PoloRWRC

I think VW will do at least twice of this, what do you think?

Ogier will like Loeb did in a top car.
Put Ogier in either a Fiesta RS or in a DS3 and the streak of wins would be the same as in the Polo.
Neuville and Loeb proved it fairly and clearly last year.

[Lundefaret]

What you forget is the most important besides all you counted up:

MONEY!!! (Or sponsors with money regardless you crash all the time) Without that all above isn´t counted for anything but maybe your home village rally once a year.

Ogier have used the amount of 150 EUR during his whole career, that is not too much is it?
But off cource you are right, money not only plays a big part, it plays to big a part.
Rallycars in all classes should and could be made A LOT cheaper.

[Lundefaret]

Yes, good for him realizes that on-time. In this way he can avoid mistakes (also improve himself, sure), like fresh example lets take JML's off.
Don't agree car development is responsibility of the engineers at all. Actually a driver dezines the car behaviour, the quality is then responsibility of the engineers. Sr. Sainz dezined Polo R WRC's behaviour (later Ogier - as fresh example, Loeb & Citroen are different "beers" from near past).

It is the engineers that have studied engineering, and the laws of physics, and it is the responsibility of the engineer to make a good rally car.

The problem is: The engineers can engineer a theoretically perfect rally car, but no driver would be able to drive it, beqause no driver has that amount of ability to drive theoretically perfect over every metre.
The only thing a driver can do, including Sr. Sainz and Ogier, is to make compromises to get the car drivable.

FX designed the VW rallycar, Sr. Sainz and Ogier helped make the compromises in set up needed to make it drivable.

The driver who can drive with the least amount of compromises in the set up has the theoretically fastest rallycar. And the driver who can use this set up and drive the most theoretically perfect is the fastest driver.

When Sebastien Loeb famously drove faster up the Pikes Peak Hill Climb than the computers of Peugeot predicted, it wasnt beqause Loeb have found a way tho cheat physics, or that Loeb is faster than a computer, it is only the proof of a small computer error putting Peugeots estimates off by a small margin.

[stefanvv]

It is the engineers that have studied engineering, and the laws of physics, and it is the responsibility of the engineer to make a good rally car.

The problem is: The engineers can engineer a theoretically perfect rally car, but no driver would be able to drive it, beqause no driver has that amount of ability to drive theoretically perfect over every metre.
The only thing a driver can do, including Sr. Sainz and Ogier, is to make compromises to get the car drivable.

FX designed the VW rallycar, Sr. Sainz and Ogier helped make the compromises in set up needed to make it drivable.

The driver who can drive with the least amount of compromises in the set up has the theoretically fastest rallycar. And the driver who can use this set up and drive the most theoretically perfect is the fastest driver.

When Sebastien Loeb famously drove faster up the Pikes Peak Hill Climb than the computers of Peugeot predicted, it wasnt beqause Loeb have found a way tho cheat physics, or that Loeb is faster than a computer, it is only the proof of a small computer error putting Peugeots estimates off by a small margin.

What you talk about is called car set-up and every driver must do this at every Rally. I was talking about decisions engineers must make, based on output from a Driver, that involves mostly drivetrain, can't tell You much details about the exact parts what will impact in particular, I'm not that familiar, and also very important - the weight distribution. I'll give you not that fresh example of.... AUDI. In "Sport" evolution of Quattro they made shorter wheel base, also put oil coolers and stuff on the back of the car to achive more oversteer and weight distribution. All that is based on Driver experience with the car. Same would happen with 200 Quattro '87 and further if AUDI decided to continue this project (well not "the same" things per ce), but the car needed urgenty of some weight reduction on the front, based on the impressions Herr Rohrl had in Monte '87.

[GallardoGT]

I like Ogier, and I like the fact that a guy like him exists after Loeb, so the drivers dont forget that there is another way of doing things. He stretches the bar, but sadly out of reach of everybody else...

I actually wonder what Ogier thinks about this. If he goes to bed each night reading another chapter in the Black Book he recieved from Loeb, and goes to sleep with a smile on his face safely aware of the fact that the only other person in the world aware of this "secret" driving technique called "Nose End First" have switched to circuit racing, and will never again be back to challenge him.
Then falling to sleep dreaming happy dreams of easy tasks like stealing candy from little children, or winning rounds in the WRC championship?

Maybe it is time for the other drivers to wake up?

The commentator of the livestream mentioned twice after the Power stage the importance of pacenotes, imo too there is the key for their succes. Pacenotes is a tricky multitasking thing (just try Richard Burns Rally and rely on the pacenotes). Did you thoroughly thought about that?

[chosse_1]

Here is my recap of the rally! I hope you like it!!
Like and share!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3hJWF15XhU

http://i58.tinypic.com/2mwcwp0.png

[Lundefaret]

The commentator of the livestream mentioned twice after the Power stage the importance of pacenotes, imo too there is the key for their succes. Pacenotes is a tricky multitasking thing (just try Richard Burns Rally and rely on the pacenotes). Did you thoroughly thought about that?

Off cource the pace notes are important, but we also have to remeber what the pace notes is:
They are not only a "cheat cheet" telling you where, and how sharply the road turns after the blind crests, but they are also where all your knowledge of risk management, physics, strategy, driving technique should be reflected.
Your pace notes should be looked upon as a "mirror that reflects your own knowledge about what it takes to win rallies."

What you leave in the pacenotes off corect and vital information will help you win rallies, what you leave out will help you loose them.

[Lundefaret]

Here is my recap of the rally! I hope you like it!!
Like and share!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3hJWF15XhU

http://i58.tinypic.com/2mwcwp0.png

Cool video, shows off how b@d a$$ rally really is!

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bkibq8sIUAAl2Z7.jpg

[GallardoGT]

Off cource the pace notes are important, but we also have to remeber what the pace notes is:
They are not only a "cheat cheet" telling you where, and how sharply the road turns after the blind crests, but they are also where all your knowledge of risk management, physics, strategy, driving technique should be reflected.
Your pace notes should be looked upon as a "mirror that reflects your own knowledge about what it takes to win rallies."

What you leave in the pacenotes off corect and vital information will help you win rallies, what you leave out will help you loose them.

So that's too your advice for the competitors to focus more on their pacenotes ;)

[gorganl2000]

@ Lundefaret

two very insightful posts
opinions may differ, but its always good to see some rational behind someone's views

[WUff1]

Ogier and VW are not playing with the other contenders. Ogier is, regardless of wich car he is in. If you take Ogier out of VW, VW is left wanting.

And no, rallydrivers can not drive like the "classic" racing driver, beqause they have to have risk management as a much higher priority. The latest rule changes regarding tires/downforce etc etc, has actually forced racing drivers to drive more like Loeb (Nose End First)
Race car driving is changing in the direction away from the classic "smooth line drivers" like Jenson Button, towards the Nose End First driving style.
In Formula 1/racing they call it "straight line driving", and "straight line accelerating", and the guru is Rob Wilson.


And this is the reason why Kubica seems to fail now.

[Jafry]

Photos from last day HERE: http://www.rally-mania.cz/photogallery.php?id=1243

[stefanvv]

http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Portugal/Berichterstattung/2014/20140406/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20140406-3938.jpg
http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Portugal/Berichterstattung/2014/20140406/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20140406-3929.jpg
http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Portugal/Berichterstattung/2014/20140406/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20140406-3966.jpg
http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Portugal/Berichterstattung/2014/20140405/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20140405-3839.jpg

[Andre Oliveira]

Strange, they count Sordo points... (no points in this case)

41

[Andre Oliveira]

http://ewrc-results.com/foto.php?e=13894&t=Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal-2014

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/pco_dsc_6796.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/pco_dsc_6812.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/pco_dsc_6753.jpg

[dimviii]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUJKLJ3uHv0

[Lundefaret]

And this is the reason why Kubica seems to fail now.

There are several aspects of his driving that Kubica needs to adress if he is to become succesfull in rallying, this is two of the most important ones.
1) Risk management: How high a risk is sustainable during a WRC-event.
2) Learning driving technique tools to lower risk, and to better his ability.

Kubica have a racers notion of braking points, and his toolbox regarding braking seems very limited.

In rallying, especially on loose surfaces, you can not have a braking point, you have to have a braking area. This is beqause you dont know exactly what the grip level is going to be at the braking point, or after it.
This is why you have to establish a braking strategy where some of the braking is used to feel the grip level, compromising the braking distance.

a) You brake more progressivly.
b) You brake for a longer stretch of road.
c) You use your throttle to extend the braking sone. (Left foot braking)
d) You use a combination of throttle and brakes to create extra grip by getting the car to sit lower on its dampers.
e) The "reaction" of the car sitting lower on the dampers can be used to build up a "counter reaction" if need be (ie. if your in throuble you have more choices/tools.)

Kubica seems "cought out" on several occations. His off in Rally Wales was a very good example. After discovering that he had braked to late, he had no tools to save the situation, and he went straight on in the left hand corner.

Kubica is a very good driver, and he seems to be a very inteligent man. Maybe he should reflect on Sebastien Loebs ability to win so many rallies with such a low level of risk?

It is VERY old fasioned to believe that first you learn speed, and then you learn to keep the car on the road. You have, from the word go, learn to establish a higher and higher sustainable speed. Maximum speed is for other types of motorsport than rallying.

[Rallyper]

There are several aspects of his driving that Kubica needs to adress if he is to become succesfull in rallying, this is two of the most important ones.
1) Risk management: How high a risk is sustainable during a WRC-event.
2) Learning driving technique tools to lower risk, and to better his ability.

Kubica have a racers notion of braking points, and his toolbox regarding braking seems very limited.

In rallying, especially on loose surfaces, you can not have a braking point, you have to have a braking area. This is beqause you dont know exactly what the grip level is going to be at the braking point, or after it.
This is why you have to establish a braking strategy where some of the braking is used to feel the grip level, compromising the braking distance.

a) You brake more progressivly.
b) You brake for a longer stretch of road.
c) You use your throttle to extend the braking sone. (Left foot braking)
d) You use a combination of throttle and brakes to create extra grip by getting the car to sit lower on its dampers.
e) The "reaction" of the car sitting lower on the dampers can be used to build up a "counter reaction" if need be (ie. if your in throuble you have more choices/tools.)

Kubica seems "cought out" on several occations. His off in Rally Wales was a very good example. After discovering that he had braked to late, he had no tools to save the situation, and he went straight on in the left hand corner.

Kubica is a very good driver, and he seems to be a very inteligent man. Maybe he should reflect on Sebastien Loebs ability to win so many rallies with such a low level of risk?

It is VERY old fasioned to believe that first you learn speed, and then you learn to keep the car on the road. You have, from the word go, learn to establish a higher and higher sustainable speed. Maximum speed is for other types of motorsport than rallying.

Could we maybe have these quotes in another topic like "How to become the fastest rallydriver in the world" or something??

[Lundefaret]

What you talk about is called car set-up and every driver must do this at every Rally. I was talking about decisions engineers must make, based on output from a Driver, that involves mostly drivetrain, can't tell You much details about the exact parts what will impact in particular, I'm not that familiar, and also very important - the weight distribution. I'll give you not that fresh example of.... AUDI. In "Sport" evolution of Quattro they made shorter wheel base, also put oil coolers and stuff on the back of the car to achive more oversteer and weight distribution. All that is based on Driver experience with the car. Same would happen with 200 Quattro '87 and further if AUDI decided to continue this project (well not "the same" things per ce), but the car needed urgenty of some weight reduction on the front, based on the impressions Herr Rohrl had in Monte '87.

Again: The engineer designs the rally car, the driver has to try to drive the optimal rally car with as few compromises as possible.
I can promise you that the engineer can make a rally car that is faster than todays WRC-cars (whitin the same regulations), but you would need an all knowing computer to drive it.

Regarding Audi and Röhrl: The Audi quattro Sport is a perfect example of this. Theoretically the shorter Audi quattro Sport was faster, then if you would have the same engine in the UR quattro, but it was to unstable for the drivers to take full advantage of this. Thath is why a compromise of the longer car would have been faster.

But, regarding Audi in the Group B-era: Don´t forget that it was not the engineers that decided that the wantet to drive with the big and heavy engine hanging out in front of the front axle, it was the "clever" idea of the marketing department. And the marketing department is even worse at making good rally cars than the drivers;)

The Audi engineers wanted to have a mid engined car just like Peugeot and Lancia, and they even made it. It was a rally monster destined for the still born class called Group S, that was to follow Group B. It was an engineered made Audi, it was mid engined, light weight, and very powerful.

The legend Walter Röhrl (wich I have been so lucky as to spend quite a lot of time with), can tell you that when the engineers got to decide, and not the marketing department, they made a truly marvelous rally car.He tried it once on a public road, and I think that you in the forrests of Bavaria still can hear an eccho from this day:)

[stefanvv]

Obviously the Rally wasn't that interesting, but here is forming some interesting discussion.

Again: The engineer designs the rally car, the driver has to try to drive the optimal rally car with as few compromises as possible.
I can promise you that the engineer can make a rally car that is faster than todays WRC-cars (whitin the same regulations), but you would need an all knowing computer to drive it.

Regarding Audi and Röhrl: The Audi quattro Sport is a perfect example of this. Theoretically the shorter Audi quattro Sport was faster, then if you would have the same engine in the UR quattro, but it was to unstable for the drivers to take full advantage of this. Thath is why a compromise of the longer car would have been faster.
Yes, the original "Ur" Quattro was dezigned purely by engineers of course. But the "Sport" evolution is a product of driver's experiense with lot of understeering mostly. Those were the early days of Rallying, now things are little bit different and that's why I cited the example of Sainz & Polo - it is evolution in engineering a Rally car.


But, regarding Audi in the Group B-era: Don´t forget that it was not the engineers that decided that the wantet to drive with the big and heavy engine hanging out in front of the front axle, it was the "clever" idea of the marketing department. And the marketing department is even worse at making good rally cars than the drivers;)

The Audi engineers wanted to have a mid engined car just like Peugeot and Lancia, and they even made it. It was a rally monster destined for the still born class called Group S, that was to follow Group B. It was an engineered made Audi, it was mid engined, light weight, and very powerful.
The engineers of AUDI did not invent the mid-engine, it has been Peugeot idea. Only after this huge Peugeot success some AUDI enthusiast engineers turned to this direction.


The legend Walter Röhrl (wich I have been so lucky as to spend quite a lot of time with), can tell you that when the engineers got to decide, and not the marketing department, they made a truly marvelous rally car.He tried it once on a public road, and I think that you in the forrests of Bavaria still can hear an eccho from this day:)
You're lucky man indeed. That's trully amazing picture.
But, while trully trusting Rohrl's words, I think you little misinterpret them and put the egg before the hen. Engineers can learn and develop too, and all comes from past practical examples.

[dimviii]

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/1977220_10152073185735678_8364121270882884375_n.jp g

[Francis44]

Back from another great weekend at Rally de Portugal.

Ogier is truly far from everyone else, what is more scary is that he didn't look like he was pushing at all the whole weekend.
Hyundai very nice weekend even though not all cars finished, I can say that Neuville, Sordo and Hanninen all looked very fast, Sordo specially, I am now much more excited and enthusiastic about next year, I believe that if they continue their hard work they might have a car on par with the Polo next year.

Hirvonnen very surprising aswell, I think that he is slowly returning to his old good ways and speed, honestly I dont think anyone could do much better this weekend with a Fiesta.
Evans, Latvala and Kubica very dissapointing, Latvala didn't look that fast either before crash. We found Kubica on our way to spectator zone on 2nd pass of the Almodovar stage, they were stopped on road section, the recce car was there with trailer but the M-sport mechanics were trying to fix it so the car could go back to service on it's own ways.
Szczepaniak looked very dissapointed and I wouldn't be surprised if they both part ways before the end of the season.

Meeke I dont even know what to say, but honestly it was is first time here, it's not good rally to try to keep up with the front guys without experience.
Otsberg trying hard all the time, surprised to see him behind Hirvonnen.

The rally was great, funtastic spots and spectators, even If I think there was less spectators this year, the weather helped aswell, there were threats of rain but it ended up not raining on the whole weekend.

[bunnings]

Video WRC Rally Portugal 2014 - @BunningsVideo

http://i.imgur.com/tt2F1UT.jpg?1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HszIuesL4k)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HszIuesL4k

[dimviii]

nice video with well choosen points!

[lewalcindor]

Some very good points there, I was thinking "more directly" to current situation, a driver can react more quickly on circuits - like block his opponent's move for example, in more "general plan" You're right. Don't forget though in circuit racing drivers also have to manage their tyres, then the game is transferred in the box, some are shorter with less worn tyres and reused for next stint, longer stints, etc.

Indeed, tire management AND tire choice plays a very big role in the both the rally and circuit racing games. So much so that I was confused by those who criticized the first few legs of this year's Monte Carlo as being a competition of which team made better tire choices. It's all part of the game, no?

And if we really want to be literal about this "chess" analogy, I think the only racing that comes to mind which fits this description is touge racing as seen from the anime/manga Initial D. Basically, it involves two cars racing from start to finish through various mountain pass roads throughout Japan.

- In one version of the race, both cars start from the same position at the same time, and the winner is the one who crosses the finish line first.
- The other version of the race involves the one car in front, and the other behind in "chase" position. If the car in front manages to pull away far enough from the chase car, it wins. If the chase car passes the car in front, it wins. If the chase car manages to stick with the car in front at the finish line, the race is a draw and is re-run with positions switched. The race continues to be re-run until there's a winner.

Either way, if we're to believe the anime/manga developers, this touge racing is all about managing your tires, using your car's advantages at the right times, knowing when to attempt to pass your opponent if he/she is in front, knowing when to go on an all-out sprint to pull away, figuring out when your opponent is looking to go on an all-out sprint to try to pull away, etc. Usually, if the two competitors are somewhat evenly matched, each driver has a literal view of his/her opponent's car most of the time because he/she is trying figure out the best strategy to win the race based on the info he/she is seeing from the other driver.

So touge racing is as literal a representation of a chess match that one can get in the world of auto racing, especially the chase version of the race.

[rallyfun]

an immidiate change between him and Kubica now!!

Speak to Lotos

[Simmi]

Really enjoyed the event from on the ground. Just stuck to the spectator zones but found good spots at Ourique/Malhao/Loule.

Great scenes high up at Malhao but it was like an advanced driving course trying to get out! Some breathing in required in the narrow places.

[dimviii]

nice video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZqmMeVCYQ

[dimviii]

lol at 3,39
http://www.citroenracing.com/en/2014/videos-en/wrc-videos/8517/rally-portugal-wrc-and-jwrc/

[mArtini racing]

This year I had a superb rally at Portugal, I am already waiting for next year!!

Day 1
http://i60.tinypic.com/21oahpg.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqEIlflZ4qk

Day 2
http://i58.tinypic.com/2a6plpc.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isJVoXPAaPo

Day 3
http://i62.tinypic.com/90asug.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6pPDafnIaQ

[dimviii]

ooopppppssssss!!!

We were leading by 10 seconds before the last stage and suddenly we receive an SMS to say we were just 0.8 from Jari. We decided to push and we won by 11 seconds. This was difficult for us. It’s easy to make mistakes when you are pushing to the maximum,” said Al Attiyah.
http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc-2/news/2014/april/nasser-sms/page/1268--51-51-.html

[katxal]

Some of my pics from Rally de Portugal 2014 more @ www.andrescachalvite.es

http://i62.tinypic.com/2e3n80g.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ytu05l.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2ij3i2a.jpg

[dimviii]

Hirvonen was the only frontline driver to complete two passes through Ourique (SS3 / SS6) before flash flooding forced organisers to terminate Tuesday’s recce.
A revised Wednesday schedule enabled crews to complete their second pass, by which time the weather had improved significantly. Hirvonen requested an extra pass to offset the disadvantage of completing both runs in the storm, but that was refused.
“Everybody else was allowed to make the second pass on Wednesday after the rain,” said the M-Sport driver. “They saw the latest conditions and where the washaways and rocks were, which I didn’t have the chance to see in Tuesday’s rain.
“We had some words with the FIA which agreed we could have three passes so I could see the latest conditions, but the organisers said no.
“If conditions are extreme, organisers should change the recce schedule and we finish it after the bad weather. On some rallies it isn’t possible but if the time is there, we should do it. It’s rare that it’s so bad you can’t do a proper recce, but now we’ve seen that can happen,” added Hirvonen.
The Finn, who finished second in his Fiesta RS, said the issue didn’t affect his result, but stressed drivers should have up-to-date details on conditions to prevent surprises during the rally.

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/april/hirvonen-recce/page/1275--12-12-.html

[Andre Oliveira]

More pics: http://ewrc-results.com/foto.php?e=13894&t=Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal-2014

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/fpa_25.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/fpa_36.jpg

[dimviii]

Becs ride with Neuville
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYfufSDryhc

[Andre Oliveira]

Fafe stage, day after Fafe Sprint

[Kielder]

A week later finally they uploaded a proper onboard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlaAgX_Se_0

[millbrook]

http://i59.tinypic.com/2vd5oph.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/10rmtfb.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/34483nn.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/1y50d0.jpg

[millbrook]

http://i57.tinypic.com/30car9f.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/16737sp.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/ve3kuw.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/s2u0z5.jpg

[millbrook]

http://i60.tinypic.com/bdnsea.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/20iz0nm.jpg

[Eli]

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/april/portugal-move/page/1282--12-12-.html

[eestlane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HbhZd20C7k
Karl Kruudas Rally De Portugal video. Very nicely made

[Andre Oliveira]

http://ewrc-results.com/foto.php?e=13894&t=Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal-2014

http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/nri_img_0277%20%281200x801%29.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/nri_img_0199%20%281200x802%29.jpg
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2014/photos/vodafone_rally_de_portugal_2014/nri_img_0338%20%281200x802%29.jpg

[MikeDeHigh]

WRC Portugal HIGHLIGHTS;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3a15J-aP2Q
https://i1.ytimg.com/vi_webp/y3a15J-aP2Q/mqdefault.webp

http://www.mikedehigh.com/wp-content/image_thumbs/1-2487-180-150-1-0-0-80.jpeg

http://www.mikedehigh.com/wp-content/image_thumbs/1-2496-180-150-1-0-0-80.jpeg

http://www.mikedehigh.com/wp-content/image_thumbs/1-2502-180-150-1-0-0-80.jpeg

http://www.mikedehigh.com/rally-photo-2/2014-wrc-portugal/