The future of Jenson Button

[jens]

As here are many British citizens on this forum, then probably many of you care about the future of Button. For many years there has been discussion whether he will become champion one day or not and I think that sadly this season we have significantly come closer to the statement that Jenson Button will never become WDC! And not because of his own fault, but he is just in a wrong team (I don't believe in Honda at least as long as Nick Fry stays there...) and he has also nowhere else to go. And when the contract expires, then probably other teams won't be too interested in him as by then some other talented youngsters will have joined F1 and there is simply no room for JB in top teams.

Btw, I'm not exactly sure whether Button has 5 (ending after 2009) or 3+2 contract (get-out clauses in case Honda performs badly). But... even if he somehow manages to leave the team or decides to create Buttongate III (who knows, what he might think out again! :p : ), then where could he go?

Ferrari - probably filled for many years.
McLaren - same
Renault - they have their own young drivers' programme
BMW - same
<so the most attractive teams are quite improbable>
Toyota - not notably better option. But in case Toyota fails to hire Heidfeld, then they might be interested in trying to create Buttongate III.
RBR - not a future top team either
Williams - stronger at the moment, but they are a privateer and I suspect that already in the second half of the season Honda is better.
No reason to mention other currently participating teams, BUT there is an interesting team joining F1 - Prodrive. They might be an plausible choice if they are going to use McLaren's chassis. Probably not a top team, but a potential mid-field team.

It seems that continuing with Honda might still be the best existing option, but in that case the dream of a World Title has to be forgotten...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think that he will stay with Honda, but they will never make a Champions car.

[BDunnell]

Apart from having a race win under his belt, he's rather in the same boat as Mark Webber, isn't he — he needs to become a genuine regular front-running challenger to have a chance of getting into a top team, but even so it's unlikely.

[Roamy]

is he even beating RB now?? Maybe Frank will take him back but I doubt he can beat Rosberg. There may be a seat or two come open at renault. But if Honda dumps Fry or gets Brawn things could change

[BeansBeansBeans]

Apart from having a race win under his belt, he's rather in the same boat as Mark Webber, isn't he — he needs to become a genuine regular front-running challenger to have a chance of getting into a top team, but even so it's unlikely.

Button is still only 27, and under contract with Honda until 2010. If they are able to produce a good car during that time (which is far from inconceivable), then he has every chance of winning more Grands Prix and challenging for the World Championship.

As for Webber, he is a few years older than Button, but if Newey can build a successful car in the next few seasons, he too could be in with a shout of victory. It would be a shame if he were to emulate Chris Amon, because in my opinion he is a top drawer driver.

[J1]

Jenson has a lot of years to come in F1 and when a DC found a paid race seat then Jenson will find one for sure!

[BeansBeansBeans]

Jenson has a lot of years to come in F1 and when a DC found a paid race seat then Jenson will find one for sure!

I don't understand.

Jenson does have a paid race seat. He is one of the highest-earning drivers in F1.

[J1]

I don't understand.


you don't need to!

[BeansBeansBeans]

you don't need to!

No, but I would like to, as we are involved in a discussion.

[rabf1]

Button is an ok driver. After showing some glimpses that he could be great, he hasn't taken the next step. At this point it looks like he is doomed to be a mid-packer at best.

[CarreraGT]

No, but I would like to, as we are involved in a discussion.


DC is a lot older and is still getting paid to race. Button, when his contract is up with Honda in 2010, will still be a lot younger than DC is now. i think J1 is just saying that if DC can get a contract at his age and stay in F1, then Button is a safe bet to stay in F1 when his current contract is up. he has skill, and while i am not a button fan, i think he deserves to be in F1, but then again, i am not making the decisions.

[stevewf1]

I think he will stay at Honda, unless they get fed up the lack of results and pull out of F1. Then I guess, Williams, BMW, Toyota, Red Bull would be options, or even Prodrive if they stay in F1 long term with the David Richards connection.

[Schnell]

He's tied into a long term Honda contract now...whilst he's probably glad he wasn't in last years Willy...bet he wishes he was in this seasons one!
It's all about being in the right place, and the right car, at the right time. And that can't happen for every driver now, can it!
Stirling Moss wasn't a World Champion either, but you can hardly say 'he' wasn't worthy of being one!

[Valve Bounce]

At the moment bunsen is dicing with his former test driver, with the latter racing last year's car.
The thought of bunsen ever becoming WDC is more bizarre than DC ever winning the WDC.
His only chance of ever winning races is to be in the top team in any one year, and that would be Ferrari, McLaren or Renault. I think his antics in the Williams contract farce might have been good for him short term (last year) but will possibly cost him any chance of ever getting an offer or even being considered by the top three teams.

Look at it this way, if a prospective applicant did that to your company, would you expect other top companies to hire him? (Unless they were sure the applicant can bring in mega zillions to their company). This guy has cruelled his own future prospects in F1.

Also, there is the payout to Williams last year which has tied bunsen to Honda for a few more years. The idea of Honda ever being that much better than Ferrari, Renault, or McLaren to permit bunsen to beat Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Massa or Massa's replacement is, to me, a pipe dream.

[BeansBeansBeans]

At the moment bunsen is dicing with his former test driver, with the latter racing last year's car.

In fairness, last year's Honda is better than this year's. Therefore it's no suprise that Rubens and Jenson are struggling to beat the Aguris.

[Caroline]

Apart from having a race win under his belt, he's rather in the same boat as Mark Webber, isn't he — he needs to become a genuine regular front-running challenger to have a chance of getting into a top team, but even so it's unlikely.

Fairly summed up I think. He needs to start a good point scoring streak now, this season, or see his chances fade away. He may never win another race.

[DimitraF1]

To become a WC button needs to drive for ferrari...thats not possible
He needs to drive for mclaren thats not possible
he needs to stay calm until 2010 and see if honda can produce a car able to win..thats not possible...a team that goes backwards and NOT making progress through the years is impossible to have the advantage in 2-3 years..see toyota,honda...England have the new star now Hamilton, so button will be another trulli ,ralf ...etc

[BeansBeansBeans]

To become a WC button needs to drive for ferrari...thats not possible
He needs to drive for mclaren thats not possible

He is only 27, and realistically has another 7 or 8 seasons in F1, and as we know, things change. There's no way of guaranteeing that Ferrari and McLaren will dominate for the next 7 or 8 years. Given that Renault went from backmarkers to double champions in a smaller timescale, it's not completely inconceivable that Honda could do the same.

[f1kid1987]

is he even beating RB now?? Maybe Frank will take him back but I doubt he can beat Rosberg. There may be a seat or two come open at renault. But if Honda dumps Fry or gets Brawn things could change

I Agree. honda need brawn. to stand any chance and getting a world championship car. But i still Beleve that button can be world champion

[ArrowsFA1]

It's all about being in the right place, and the right car, at the right time. And that can't happen for every driver now, can it!
:up:

[555-04Q2]

It's all about being in the right place, and the right car, at the right time. And that can't happen for every driver now, can it!
Stirling Moss wasn't a World Champion either, but you can hardly say 'he' wasn't worthy of being one!

But driver input during testing, feedback during a season play a vital part in an F1 team. Have a cr@p test driver and race drivers and even a good car becomes a bad one eventually. Alonso and Schumacher have shown what good all round drivers bring to a team.

[ArrowsFA1]

Have a cr@p test driver and race drivers and even a good car becomes a bad one eventually.
Are you suggesting that has happened at Honda?

Of course a very good driver brings a lot to the overall package, and contributes to improving it, but having a good car begins with the design concept, and that's where Honda seem to have gone seriously wrong.

Button and Barrichello can extract the maximum out of what they have, but the RA107 is never going to be a winner without major re-working, whatever the drivers do.

[555-04Q2]

Are you suggesting that has happened at Honda?

No. The car design is badly flawed. The designers and engineers have got it wrong. The drivers are helpless at the moment :( Even Michael Schumacher could'nt save Honda at the moment ;)

[jens]

Are you suggesting that has happened at Honda?

Of course a very good driver brings a lot to the overall package, and contributes to improving it, but having a good car begins with the design concept, and that's where Honda seem to have gone seriously wrong.

Button and Barrichello can extract the maximum out of what they have, but the RA107 is never going to be a winner without major re-working, whatever the drivers do.

You are talking against yourself. I remember you once saying that "it's not only drivers' fault, but they are a factor among others."

[ArrowsFA1]

You are talking against yourself. I remember you once saying that "it's not only drivers' fault, but they are a factor among others."
I think you'll find that's what I'm saying again. A driver is one of many factors that all go towards achieving success, or not, in F1.

[aryan]

well, at least we aren't countgin 101, 102, 103 anymore :D That's good for a start.

[OmarF1]

kinda sad to see Jenson crawling in that world-sized piece of crap he's driving right now, the future for him looks not good with Honda, and I Don't think he's looking at Toyota as a real option, right now it's all about McLaren, Ferrari and perhaps BMW, not even Renault seems good right now (lack of cash, not long time commitment with F1, Piquet waiting, etc.) damn Jenson go make yourself a Champ Car legend like Bourdais LOL.

[ojciec dyrektor]

(...) where could he go?

Ferrari - probably filled for many years.
McLaren - same
Renault - they have their own young drivers' programme
BMW - same


Alonso said, he wants to win 3 WDC titles and then he'll retire. So, next year JB can go to McLaren as a no 2 driver :)

[OmarF1]

Alonso said, he wants to win 3 WDC titles and then he'll retire. So, next year JB can go to McLaren as a no 2 driver :)

I'm not sure about the Alonso thing, my thought it is that if he realizes that he has the chance to win more and more, he'll go for it, not only three, maybe five or six, Alonso hides some real ambition under those humongous eyebrows and indifferent attitude towards F1.

[Ian McC]

These days you don't have long to make it in F1, doesn't really matter what car you drive. If you don't you are soon passed by as younger drivers come up through the ranks.

Even if a seat came up in one of the other top teams I would say it's unlikely he would get it.

[Hazell B]

Even if a seat came up in one of the other top teams I would say it's unlikely he would get it.

Fair point, but let's say either Alonso, Kimi or some other top team's driver breaks a leg and there's a seat available (and Button is released by Honda). Button has a good car in a top team .... but he still wouldn't be good enough to beat his team mate if they're in an equal car :mark:

The reason he isn't already up among the best is simple - he isn't good enough. If he were offered, for example, Massa's job tomorrow he still wouldn't beat the sister car. He can beat Rubens probably I agree, but nobody better.

I've never thought him a possible for a World Championship. In fact, I still promise to eat my large leather hat if he wins a race that isn't gifted him by other's misfortune. That bet's been going several years now!

[Roamy]

Hazel are you going to cook the hat or eat it raw??

[Hayden Fan]

Have Jensen come to CC. With Dan Clarke, Justin Wilson, Kat, I think Jensen would fit in perfect.

[wedge]

These days you don't have long to make it in F1, doesn't really matter what car you drive. If you don't you are soon passed by as younger drivers come up through the ranks.

Even if a seat came up in one of the other top teams I would say it's unlikely he would get it.

Or he could be so desperate and take a pay cut! :P

I wouldn't be surprised he's still labelled as 'damaged goods' within the paddock. Apart from Williams, who would ever trust Button who tried to leave Honda by the back door and handled the whole affair quite badly. Up until that point, Button was very good at playing musical chairs.

[Roamy]

well it would be great if he came to CC but highly unlikely. We can better evaluate after this year against RB

[Hawkmoon]

The more Japanese Honda become, the further away from a world championship they get. I don't mean that in a derogatory way but it would seem that the Japanese way of doing things is not overly suited to F1.

Honda's success in F1 has only come as an engine supplier. I think this is because Ron Dennis and Frank Williams were calling the shots and knew how to deal with Honda to get the best from them.

The first mistake they made was getting rid of David Richards. If Richards was given a free hand to run the show and Honda simply signed the cheques, I truly believe that Honda would be near the front of the grid. Richards was capable of filling the same role as Ron Dennis and Frank Williams. It would appear that Nick Fry is not.

The second mistake appears to be the firing of Geoff Willis. Or perhaps, more accurately, the replacing of Willis with someone who is Honda Corporate first and F1 second. This is where they need Brawn or someone like him. If given a free hand, Brawn could go along way to setting Honda onto the right path.

So where does that leave Button? Stuck in a sh!te-hole of his own making. Another season will pass without Button troubling the win column, let alone the championship one. As each season passes without success, Button will slip further from peoples minds as a championship calibre driver.

As it stands today, Ferrari, McLaren, Renault and BMW are all set with their drivers or have youngsters waiting in the wings. Button's only hope is that Honda somehow manage to halt the slide into Toyota-ness that they are currently in and rediscover whatever it was that made 2004 so good for them.

[ioan]

As it stands today, Ferrari, McLaren, Renault and BMW are all set with their drivers or have youngsters waiting in the wings. Button's only hope is that Honda somehow manage to halt the slide into Toyota-ness that they are currently in and rediscover whatever it was that made 2004 so good for them.

I would only point out that Toyota is at least somewhat stable compared to Honda's highs and (very) lows.

[wmcot]

Since I'm in the USA, I'm curious how the British press rate JB, AD, and DC now that LH has come onto the scene?

[Ranger]

Since I'm in the USA, I'm curious how the British press rate JB, AD, and DC now that LH has come onto the scene?

From what I've seen, about the same, though of course Lewis is the "golden boy" if you like.

[raphael123]

The more Japanese Honda become, the further away from a world championship they get. I don't mean that in a derogatory way but it would seem that the Japanese way of doing things is not overly suited to F1.

Honda's success in F1 has only come as an engine supplier. I think this is because Ron Dennis and Frank Williams were calling the shots and knew how to deal with Honda to get the best from them.

The first mistake they made was getting rid of David Richards. If Richards was given a free hand to run the show and Honda simply signed the cheques, I truly believe that Honda would be near the front of the grid. Richards was capable of filling the same role as Ron Dennis and Frank Williams. It would appear that Nick Fry is not.

The second mistake appears to be the firing of Geoff Willis. Or perhaps, more accurately, the replacing of Willis with someone who is Honda Corporate first and F1 second. This is where they need Brawn or someone like him. If given a free hand, Brawn could go along way to setting Honda onto the right path.

So where does that leave Button? Stuck in a sh!te-hole of his own making. Another season will pass without Button troubling the win column, let alone the championship one. As each season passes without success, Button will slip further from peoples minds as a championship calibre driver.

As it stands today, Ferrari, McLaren, Renault and BMW are all set with their drivers or have youngsters waiting in the wings. Button's only hope is that Honda somehow manage to halt the slide into Toyota-ness that they are currently in and rediscover whatever it was that made 2004 so good for them.

Didn't Richards leave rather than get sacked? I thought he wanted to concentrate on his prodrive affairs. Still, the fact they let him go, and didn't tie him down, or entice him to stay long term was a major mistake. The improvements the team made under him was great, and they've been going downhill ever since.

With Willis, I think the guy is a good designer, capable of making a winning car, but not a championship car. Therefore, a team like Honda were probably right to let him go as they should be aiming for the championship, not just podiums and victories (though he didn't even manage a victory!). However as you correctly say, replacing him with the guy they have was obviously the wrong thing to do.

wmcot, Lewis Hamilton is being hyped up beyond belief. Similar to the way Jenson Button was. I remember Martin Brundle describing Button as making the biggest impression in his F1 debut since Michael Schumacher in Spa 00. And he hasn't achieved much has he. So I hope Lewis doesn't go down the same way! Though I'd say the British press tend to view Button as a very good driver, just behind the big guys like FA and Kimi, but not quite at their level. To be honest I would probably go along with that. He's better than the likes of Rubens, Webber, Fisi etc.

Anthony Davidson is highly rated as a tester, but I don't think they've formed an opinion of him properly yet as he has only made 5 GP starts. So far though, though the guy has promise, he has failed to make anything with those 5 races!!

DC is good at the technical sides of the things, but driving wise he isn't what he use to be. There are quicker drivers available thats for sure.

[BeansBeansBeans]

With Willis, I think the guy is a good designer, capable of making a winning car, but not a championship car. Therefore, a team like Honda were probably right to let him go as they should be aiming for the championship, not just podiums and victories (though he didn't even manage a victory!).

In fairness, although Willis had left the team prior to the 2006 Hungarian Grand Prix, it was his car that won.

[GridGirl]

Honda know they have made a rubbish car. Its already been scrapped and they are designing a new one. Renault will be making the same decision this week. Both teams are lucky they are bankrolled by manufacturer's. They can afford to do it.

As for Jenson, he better hope the next offering is better than the one he's currently got.

[I am evil Homer]

What the one where he pays Williams to not drive for them ;) I think he's best off sticking with Honda for a while because they want to succeed in F1.

[GridGirl]

I meant the new car that Honda are already designing, like I said they've already scrapped the 2007 car.

[Ian McC]

I've never thought him a possible for a World Championship. In fact, I still promise to eat my large leather hat if he wins a race that isn't gifted him by other's misfortune. That bet's been going several years now!

Oh now I'm a Button fan :D

I hope you live to regret typing that :p :

[Hazell B]

Hazel are you going to cook the hat or eat it raw??


Neither, I'll just keep wearing it. Forever ;)

Sorry Mr McC, but your boy simply isn't good enough to be a champion. Give him a race where the two or three front runners drop out and he's in a decent car and he will win - but frankly do you think he's worth a bet each week? When did you last think he had a real hope of winning a race that wasn't handed to him? In fact, when did he last overtake a car equal or better than his own?

I'll go further, when did he last finish higher up the order than when he started, allowing for cars pulling up ahead of him?

This year's car is dire, he does deserve better. But given better he still isn't a top class race driver unfortunately. He's also pretty much unemployable by the best teams, given his record for moaning and attempted escapes ....

[raphael123]

In fairness, although Willis had left the team prior to the 2006 Hungarian Grand Prix, it was his car that won.

Well, he made the car that BAR had at the start of the season. Once they sacked him, they started to make developments on the car which got them into that strong position. The car he designed wasn't capable of winning a race, not even a podium, and was struggling for points. It was the developments they made during the course of the season, after he was sacked that put them in a position to win a race.

Saying that, I'm sure Honda would be much higher up the grid if he was still there, but again, not winners or championship contenders. Honda should only have sacked him if they had someone else capable ready to take over. That was their mistake.

[millencolin]

at least ITV are talking abut him less!!!!

[jens]

I have noticed an interesting tendency in Button's career. He tends to have alternating seasons - good, bad, good, bad and so on. Let's see:

2000 - good year, a lot of "future world Champion" hype
2001 - bad year, struggling in a crap car.
2002 - a comeback, scoring decent points especially at the start of the season
2003 - a comedown season, where he was quite unnoticed
2004 - suddenly jumped into the spotlight as a potential future star.
2005 - a lot of hopes, but BAR dropped significantly backwards.
2006 - again things getting better + first ever win
2007 - and again a harsh downfall.

According to that tendency Button should have a pretty good season in 2008?

[Roamy]

Do you want me to send over some new Terot Cards

[trumperZ06]

Do you want me to send over some new Terot Cards

Maybe a "CRYSTAL BALL" !!! ;)

[Caroline]

at least ITV are talking abut him less!!!!

:up:

[baker]

I'll go further, when did he last finish higher up the order than when he started, allowing for cars pulling up ahead of him?



Brazil last year. Japan before that.

[Ian McC]

at least ITV are talking abut him less!!!!

That would be because they have someone else to talk about ;)

[Ranger]

Brazil last year. Japan before that.

Yep, finished 3rd after qualifying 14th, beating his team-mate who started ahead of him. IMO he's not a bad driver at all.

The car, on the other hand...

[nigelred5]

hmmmmmm......

[V12]

I have noticed an interesting tendency in Button's career. He tends to have alternating seasons - good, bad, good, bad and so on. Let's see:

2000 - good year, a lot of "future world Champion" hype
2001 - bad year, struggling in a crap car.
2002 - a comeback, scoring decent points especially at the start of the season
2003 - a comedown season, where he was quite unnoticed
2004 - suddenly jumped into the spotlight as a potential future star.
2005 - a lot of hopes, but BAR dropped significantly backwards.
2006 - again things getting better + first ever win
2007 - and again a harsh downfall.

According to that tendency Button should have a pretty good season in 2008?


Funny enough...I mentioned exactly the same thing to a mate when watching the race the other day! Here's hoping for 2008 anyway, it can't be any worse than this year is looking to be - a lot of it is to do with expectations I think, good year, raise expectations, disappointment following, readjustment of those expectations setting himself up for what is percieved to be a decent year, and the cycle starts again.

Given his machinery there wasn't much difference between 2002 (usually slightly slower than, but outscoring, Trulli) and 2003 (marginally outperforming Villeneuve but better reliability playing a factor in the points race) for example, and I believe (again allowing for machinery) he performed better in 2005 (compared to Sato) than 2004 when Taku ran him very close and even beat him on occasion.

All in all though, I do expect 2007 to be a 2001 Benetton-style blip and nothing more, surely a team with the resources and recent experience of Honda can't cock up two years running, and if a dog of a car didn't finish him as a second-year, unproven driver in '01, I don't see why a similar situation should finish his career now, especially now he is, at the end of the day, a proven winner and consistent podium finisher.

[raphael123]

I have noticed an interesting tendency in Button's career. He tends to have alternating seasons - good, bad, good, bad and so on. Let's see:

2000 - good year, a lot of "future world Champion" hype
2001 - bad year, struggling in a crap car.
2002 - a comeback, scoring decent points especially at the start of the season
2003 - a comedown season, where he was quite unnoticed
2004 - suddenly jumped into the spotlight as a potential future star.
2005 - a lot of hopes, but BAR dropped significantly backwards.
2006 - again things getting better + first ever win
2007 - and again a harsh downfall.

According to that tendency Button should have a pretty good season in 2008?

I think it has more to do with the car he drives rather than his personal performance.

I don't rate Button alongside Kimi or Alonso. However at the rate things are going, I think Button could end up being one of the most unsuccessful talented driver's in recent history! If that makes sense lol!

[OmarF1]

yeah Lewis Hamilton is awesome... ooohh sorry sorry, this thread it's about THAT other british driver..:P

[Valve Bounce]

Well, he made the car that BAR had at the start of the season. Once they sacked him, they started to make developments on the car which got them into that strong position. The car he designed wasn't capable of winning a race, not even a podium, and was struggling for points. It was the developments they made during the course of the season, after he was sacked that put them in a position to win a race.

Saying that, I'm sure Honda would be much higher up the grid if he was still there, but again, not winners or championship contenders. Honda should only have sacked him if they had someone else capable ready to take over. That was their mistake.

Maybe they should sneak into the Super Aguri garage and see what these guys are up to. :D

[Valve Bounce]

I think it has more to do with the car he drives rather than his personal performance.

I don't rate Button alongside Kimi or Alonso. However at the rate things are going, I think Button could end up being one of the most unsuccessful talented driver's in recent history! If that makes sense lol!


A guy with a lousy car does what he can to make things shine: like Fernando qualifying the Minardi without the car being tested,
Webber getting 5th place in the Minardi in his first F1 race,
ant fighting with the Renault after qualifying ahead of his illustrious team Honda opponents and his team mate who some here rate much better than him by certain persons here who shall remain anonimous,
..........

When bunsen doesn't achieve that good, all sorts of excuses are made by people here that he is a great driver lumbered with a lousy car and can't do much. Poor guy - big cry!!

Maybe we should put bunsen in a second hand last years Honda and see how well he goes!

[Roamy]

maybe they should just give the car back to JV so he can sort it out again

[Valve Bounce]

G'day fousto - I love your train of thought, but nothing will induce Jacques back to F1, I think.

[raphael123]

A guy with a lousy car does what he can to make things shine: like Fernando qualifying the Minardi without the car being tested,
Webber getting 5th place in the Minardi in his first F1 race,
ant fighting with the Renault after qualifying ahead of his illustrious team Honda opponents and his team mate who some here rate much better than him by certain persons here who shall remain anonimous,
..........

When bunsen doesn't achieve that good, all sorts of excuses are made by people here that he is a great driver lumbered with a lousy car and can't do much. Poor guy - big cry!!

Maybe we should put bunsen in a second hand last years Honda and see how well he goes!

But Button has done great things and shone in lousy cars - overachieving!

Since Fisichella was his team-mate Button has beaten all his team-mates and quite comprehensively too! Even in his debut season, by the 2nd half of the season Button was beating Ralf Schumacher, who was VERY highly rated after an excellent 99 season, and a very good start to the 00 season.

The only bad year Button has had was in his second season alongside Fisichella. I think he's shown he is quite a talent. To say button has never shined is blinded eyes from you. Isn't 14th to 1st in Hungary Button 'shining'? Or his drive in Germany 04?

I'm not a fan of Button myself, and I hate the way the British media has gone crazy for him over these last few years, and I hate the way they use to focus on him (in the way they are doing with Hamilton now!!), but the guy is obviously a talent. He's not an Alonso or Kimi, but he's just below that. Better than Webber I think, who was shown at Williams to be below Heidfeld as a race driver.

It's ok to dislike a driver in the way it would seem you dislike Button, as long as it doesn't affect your view of a driver so much so that you become impossible to have a discussion about that particular issue/driver :)

[Valve Bounce]

It's ok to dislike a driver in the way it would seem you dislike Button, as long as it doesn't affect your view of a driver so much so that you become impossible to have a discussion about that particular issue/driver :)

I don't dislike bunsen at all - I am simply stating that he has never been in a lousy car that he can outshine a better car. Maybe if we put him in last year's second hand Honda and see how he races against a good driver in this year's team Honda car.

Let me make my point perfectly clear here so there is no miunderstanding: he was outqualified and out raced by his ex test driver in last years second hand Honda. get it??

P.S. If he can't outqualify Sato in the Aguri, where does that leave him? Over to you!!

[BeansBeansBeans]

Let me make my point perfectly clear here so there is no miunderstanding: he was outqualified and out raced by his ex test driver in last years second hand Honda. get it??

Yes, but last year's second hand Honda is quicker than this year's.

[BeansBeansBeans]

P.S. If he can't outqualify Sato in the Aguri, where does that leave him? Over to you!!

Well, Jenson comfortably outqualified Sato for two seasons when they were team-mates, so why do you think Sato is outqualifying him now? Could it be that Sato is in a better car?

[ioan]

Well, Jenson comfortably outqualified Sato for two seasons when they were team-mates, so why do you think Sato is outqualifying him now? Could it be that Sato is in a better car?

Maybe Sato matured a bit since than? Or that doesn't suit your POV? :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

Maybe Sato matured a bit since than? Or that doesn't suit your POV?

I find it hard to believe that Sato has matured to a level where he can comfortably out-perform both Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello in an inferior car.

[ioan]

I find it hard to believe that Sato has matured to a level where he can comfortably out-perform both Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello in an inferior car.

I think that in an inferior car Sato could outperform Button and maybe even Rubens, whom are known to need a very very well balanced car to perform well, just check out the 2004 season.

[BeansBeansBeans]

So, let's just put our cars on the table Ioan. You genuinely believe that the RA107 is better than the RA106?

[Valve Bounce]

Is this reasoning the RA 107 is not better than last year's car due to the fact that Honda has lost its ace test driver to a shoestring team? I simply find it difficult to believe that Honda could go backward that much that bunsen would appear inferior to Sato.

But the point I am making is that a good driver in a lousy car can often do better than an ordinary driver in a better car.

But I find it difficult to comprehend how bunsen can be outperformed by Sato in a second hand last year's model Honda. Can somebody enlighten on this point please.

[ioan]

Is this reasoning the RA 107 is not better than last year's car due to the fact that Honda has lost its ace test driver to a shoestring team? I simply find it difficult to believe that Honda could go backward that much that bunsen would appear inferior to Sato.

But the point I am making is that a good driver in a lousy car can often do better than an ordinary driver in a better car.

But I find it difficult to comprehend how bunsen can be outperformed by Sato in a second hand last year's model Honda. Can somebody enlighten on this point please.

I suppose you were referring to Ad and TS when you mentioned that a good driver can do well in a lousy car! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I suppose you were referring to Ad and TS when you mentioned that a good driver can do well in a lousy car! ;)

Well, ant was chasing heiki's Renault - not a bad effort seeing he was on a heavier fuel load.

[ioan]

Well, ant was chasing heiki's Renault - not a bad effort seeing he was on a heavier fuel load.

I know. I was just worried that you might be talking about JB.

[ChickenMcNugget]

But I find it difficult to comprehend how bunsen can be outperformed by Sato in a second hand last year's model Honda. Can somebody enlighten on this point please.

Just one part of the grand scheme of the natural intricacies of F1, maybe? :\ These kind of paradoxical showings from drivers when compared to each other with various occillating parameters evident (erm, well, different cars) isn't really too uncommon.

As somebody else suggested, Button did comprehensively cream Sato over the course of two seasons when all was equal, and as for the 'maturity' argument, as far as I aware Sato was actually the elder of the pair, wasn't he? So I guess we'll just have to all live with the doubt as to whether that pecking order has, or hasn't, changed... for now. ;)

But then, of course, RA106 or RA107, the respective drivers just need to live with it and apply some work ethnic. Complaining won't vault many drivers up the order, that's a certainity.

[EVOBOY]

Guys Iam affraid Button is in danger of turning into another "F1 journey man" like Mr Couthard, Eddie Ervine to name but a few. He's made his millions, has a difficult car ect ect, truth is Shumi would still be able to get that same car way further up the grid than Button. I used to be a Button fan but over the years he has lost his once promising sparkle & will sadly never be a World Champ - that accolade will be taken by Lewis within the next 2-3 years :D ....

[Ian McC]

Guys Iam affraid Button is in danger of turning into another "F1 journey man" like Mr Couthard, Eddie Ervine to name but a few. He's made his millions, has a difficult car ect ect, truth is Shumi would still be able to get that same car way further up the grid than Button. I used to be a Button fan but over the years he has lost his once promising sparkle & will sadly never be a World Champ - that accolade will be taken by Lewis within the next 2-3 years :D ....

Well, just goes to prove, if you don't have the car under you you aren't going to win anything, no matter who you are.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, just goes to prove, if you don't have the car under you you aren't going to win anything, no matter who you are.

Same old excuse. If he cannot beat Sato who is racing in last year's car, then something is dreadfully wrong here with Honda.

[Ian McC]

Same old excuse. If he cannot beat Sato who is racing in last year's car, then something is dreadfully wrong here with Honda.


Hardly an excuse is it? He isn't going to win anything in that car.

[raphael123]

I don't dislike bunsen at all - I am simply stating that he has never been in a lousy car that he can outshine a better car. Maybe if we put him in last year's second hand Honda and see how he races against a good driver in this year's team Honda car.

Let me make my point perfectly clear here so there is no miunderstanding: he was outqualified and out raced by his ex test driver in last years second hand Honda. get it??

P.S. If he can't outqualify Sato in the Aguri, where does that leave him? Over to you!!

Is this reasoning the RA 107 is not better than last year's car due to the fact that Honda has lost its ace test driver to a shoestring team? I simply find it difficult to believe that Honda could go backward that much that bunsen would appear inferior to Sato.

But the point I am making is that a good driver in a lousy car can often do better than an ordinary driver in a better car.

But I find it difficult to comprehend how bunsen can be outperformed by Sato in a second hand last year's model Honda. Can somebody enlighten on this point please.

I think this says more about your way of thinking that justifying why you don't rate Button.

I've given you examples of races where Button has overachieved in a car given to him. If you choose to ignore these, that's up to you.

Then there's also the fact that Button has beaten every team-mate he has had apart from his debut year and 2nd year, though even in his debut year he was beating Ralf by the 2nd half of the year!

And if your into comparing drivers, maybe you should stick to drivers who are driving the same car? If you do, you'll see Button completely outperformed a former world champion when that WC was still highly regarded after dominating Panis, who was also highly rated at the time for the previous 2 seasons.

The Aguri's have consistently been quicker in qualifying than the Honda team. To assume this is all down to Takuma Sato - the guy who was completely and utterly whipped by Button during their times as team-mate, and Davidson, who was at Honda for years and never rated highly enough to be given a full time seat is ignorance on your part. Have you ever thought the Aguri may generally be quicker? Afterall, Rubens, the guy who ran Schumacher so closely when Schumacher was at his peak, can't do much better than Button. Or if your sticking with Sato and Davidson are THAT much better than Button and Rubens, then with that theory of thinking, they were in actual fact BETTER than Schumacher.

Come on, get real! :)

[raphael123]

I think that in an inferior car Sato could outperform Button and maybe even Rubens, whom are known to need a very very well balanced car to perform well, just check out the 2004 season.

So Sato could outperform Rubens in an INFERIOR car. Rubens wasn't far off Schumacher even though he was given No2 treatment! So with your theory of thinking, Sato would possibly MATCH Schumacher in inferior equipment, and probably beat him with the same car!! Wow, that says a lot of what you think of Schumacher - that he was as good, or just slightly better than Sato!!

Either that, or you've seen something in Sato no one else has, not even your beloved Schumacher!

[ioan]

So Sato could outperform Rubens in an INFERIOR car. Rubens wasn't far off Schumacher even though he was given No2 treatment! So with your theory of thinking, Sato would possibly MATCH Schumacher in inferior equipment, and probably beat him with the same car!! Wow, that says a lot of what you think of Schumacher - that he was as good, or just slightly better than Sato!!

Either that, or you've seen something in Sato no one else has, not even your beloved Schumacher!

I think that Rubens has lost his aggressiveness and he isn't anymore the determined and hungry driver he was, Sato on the other hand is!

As for your logics:

TS > RB
MS > RB

Is not even equivalent with TS = MS, and your conclusion TS > MS is not logic deduction, only wishful thinking.

IF we would have:

TS>RB and RB>MS than you could have concluded that TS > MS. But it isn't the case, isn't it?!

[raphael123]

I think that Rubens has lost his aggressiveness and he isn't anymore the determined and hungry driver he was, Sato on the other hand is!

As for your logics:

TS > RB
MS > RB

Is not even equivalent with TS = MS, and your conclusion TS > MS is not logic deduction, only wishful thinking.

IF we would have:

TS>RB and RB>MS than you could have concluded that TS > MS. But it isn't the case, isn't it?!

Well if your arguement is Rubens, in the 4months between being Schumacher's team-mate, and becoming Button's new team-mate lost the aggressiveness, hunger and determination which made him a competitive team-mate to Schumacher, I can't argue - afterall it's an opinion.

However I don't think many people would agree with you that Sato is a better driver than Button. How many team bosses would pick Sato as their driver over Jenson Button, or Rubens even!? Still, I'm sure you know more than what they do :)

[jens]

I think Sato is currently a better driver than he was at BAR. Then he made quite many mistakes, but now the amount of errors have been a lot smaller. Why do you think that Takuma haven't been able to match Button this season (as a driver)? A couple of examples from the same tracks in 2004, 2005 and 2007.

2004:
Australia: Sato made quite a number of errors and finished 9th, Button was 6th (Jenson was a bit faster then)
Malaysia: Sato ran off in quali and also lost 20 secs at the start of the race after going off again in the same corner, but then his speed was equal to Button and he managed to rise to 8th before engine blew up.
Bahrain: Sato ran ahead of Button before being too overoptimistic and losing front wing - in spite of that later finished 5th.

2005
Australia - ruined his chances of matching Button with a spin in quali.
Malaysia - didn't participate
Bahrain - was running nose-to-tail (if I remember correctly, then Takuma was even ahead of Jenson) with Button before both BARs broke down.

So in conclusion Sato is not as good as Button in overall, but he has the same speed. But on the contrary Sato hasn't made any mistakes in 2007 like he made in 2004-2005, which means that so far in 2007 he might have been as good as Button as a driver! Especially as Button has failed to beat Barrichello that he was comfortably able to achieve in 2006.

[BeansBeansBeans]

There is simply no evidence to suggest that Sato is better than Button. The main reason that Honda find themselves struggling at the back this season is the poor quality of the RA107. It's interesting that some people attribute Button's successes in 2004 and 2006 to anything but his driving abilities (good car, weak field, weak team-mate, lucky strategy) yet blame his 2007 problems solely on his driving abilities and nothing else. I think people allow their dislike of Button to colour their assessment of his performances.

[jens]

There is simply no evidence to suggest that Sato is better than Button. The main reason that Honda find themselves struggling at the back this season is the poor quality of the RA107. It's interesting that some people attribute Button's successes in 2004 and 2006 to anything but his driving abilities (good car, weak field, weak team-mate, lucky strategy) yet blame his 2007 problems solely on his driving abilities and nothing else. I think people allow their dislike of Button to colour their assessment of his performances.

I don't think Button's driving abilities has something to do with Honda's form, but he seems a bit unmotivated. Barrichello has looked a bit more convincing so far (also in mid-2006, when Honda struggled, Barrichello seemed to have a slight edge). Btw, I don't think Sato is better than Button, but he also hasn't been slower.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I don't think Button's driving abilities has something to do with Honda's form, but he seems a bit unmotivated. Barrichello has looked a bit more convincing so far.

Barrichello is better able to hustle a poorly-handling car around the track, which is why he has had a slight edge over Button.

[raphael123]

There is simply no evidence to suggest that Sato is better than Button. The main reason that Honda find themselves struggling at the back this season is the poor quality of the RA107. It's interesting that some people attribute Button's successes in 2004 and 2006 to anything but his driving abilities (good car, weak field, weak team-mate, lucky strategy) yet blame his 2007 problems solely on his driving abilities and nothing else. I think people allow their dislike of Button to colour their assessment of his performances.

Excellent point!


In 2004 Button scored nearly 90pts in comparison to Sato's just over 30!! And though Sato did suffer more reliability problems, he only had 4 mechanical failures (all engine as it happens!!), and he wasn't heading for top points in those races.

Sato in terms of outrace pace, could from time to time match Button's pace, but that was rare, and when he did, he would crash or falter, as the examples you mentioned jens. I wouldnt go as far too say he had the same speed as Button, as those occasions were more rare than frequent. It's like saying Irvine had the same speed as Schumacher, just because he matched him from time to time. In fact he was actually quicker than Schumacher, in particular in Hockenheim the old track, where Irvine year after year beat Schumacher! Does that make him a quicker driver because he could beat him for a couple of races a year? Nope :)

In 2005, Button outscored Sato by 37 times! Sato had 1pt all season. I'm sorry, but how anyone can claim Sato is now all of a sudden a better driver than Button, I really do highly doubt it! Sure, Sato has improved, but not to that extent! Can you imagine Sato being a regular podium finisher at the end of last year, even managing to sneak a win in there too? I doubt it.

[Hazell B]

It's interesting that some people attribute Button's ....... 2007 problems solely on his driving abilities and nothing else. I think people allow their dislike of Button to colour their assessment of his performances.

I'd say it's his driving inability that some of us pinpoint :laugh:

By the way, I've known you allow dislikes to colour your assessments often enough ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Is this year's Honda so lousy because they lsot their ace test driver to Aguri? and also are missing out on the invaluable feedback that he provided during friday practice?

I don't dislike bunsen because of his driving capability; I dislike him because of his lack of contractual morals, a trait which has now come back to haunt him.

Having said all this, I still rate ant higher than bunsen. There! I've made my stand clear. And as for shining in an inferior car, ant was battling with Heiki in the much better Renault at Bahrein. Why shouldn't I compare drivers in different cars? Well, Moss outshone both Ferraris at Monaco and Nurnburgring in the less powerful engine. That has remained in my mind all these years.

[Ian McC]

Is this year's Honda so lousy because they lsot their ace test driver to Aguri? and also are missing out on the invaluable feedback that he provided during friday practice?

No! :p :

[Garry Walker]

ant fighting with the Renault after qualifying ahead of his illustrious team Honda opponents and his team mate who some here rate much better than him by certain persons here who shall remain anonimous,


The Super Aguri is probably a better car than the Renault, only its driven by far lesser drivers


. Or if your sticking with Sato and Davidson are THAT much better than Button and Rubens, then with that theory of thinking, they were in actual fact BETTER than Schumacher.



Dont expect rational thinking from valve bounce, soon he will refer to you as "genital cranium", as you have exposed his bias.

I think it is obvious to even to the least intelligent f1 watcher that at the moment Honda is actually much slower than Super Aguri. If Barrichello and Button were in the SA, they could easily fight for points in that car every race. Sato and Davidson are nowhere near as good as JB and RB, that is obvious.


Is this year's Honda so lousy because they lsot their ace test driver to Aguri? and also are missing out on the invaluable feedback that he provided during friday practice?
hahahahahahahaha. Yes, The fact that they "lsot" their test-driver is exactly the reason why Honda are doing badly :D :D :D :D


Having said all this, I still rate ant higher than bunsen.
good for you, Shame that noone in F1 agrees with you :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

Is this year's Honda so lousy because they lsot their ace test driver to Aguri? and also are missing out on the invaluable feedback that he provided during friday practice?

I'm sure Honda will miss Davidson's valuable input, but I don't think that his departure can be blamed for the wretched RA107. F1 design is far too complicated to blame a fundamentally badly-designed car solely on a change of test driver.

[BeansBeansBeans]

If Barrichello and Button were in the SA, they could easily fight for points in that car every race. Sato and Davidson are nowhere near as good as JB and RB, that is obvious.

Whilst I agree that Button and Barrichello are better than Aguri's pair, I don't think they would be fighting for points in every race. Ant and Taku are doing a great job.

[jens]

Barrichello is better able to hustle a poorly-handling car around the track, which is why he has had a slight edge over Button.

But here comes another question - why shouldn't Sato be able to be as quick as an unmotivated and struggling (with an unsuitable car) Button? :)

[Valve Bounce]

To be realistic here, and not just hand around half hearted jokes, I do have to say that I had previously thought that bunsen was a very good driver. Frank Williams thinks so also, and he can see a helluva lot more than I do from his trackside position.

So the only conclusion I can reach here is that the current Works Honda has inherant design faults that bot Rubens and bunsen are trying to cope with unsuccessfully. I have always thought that Rubens is a very good driver, one that has been able to outdrive SchM on occasion when track and other conditions suit him better.

But for anyone to expect either of them to hop into a Super Aguri and start scoring points is just ridiculous. How can anyone think that last year's Honda is better than this years McLaren, Ferrari, Renault, Williams, Toyota, BMW, or even the Newey designed Red Bull.

For once, I thought I'd post a serious post after my return from Holiday instead of funning around. So there it is.

[raphael123]

I'm sure Honda miss Ant's input as a test driver, however this year's car was designed with last year's drivers input - including Anthony Davidson. They don't start designing the car in January when Ant left do they! 95% of the car was already done by the time Anthony Davidson left. So if you think the driver has that much of an input - and in particular Davidson, then that means Davidson has played a large role in Honda's lack of pace this year!!

Also, if Honda thought Davidson input was THAT valuable, they would have put him in the race seat, rather than spend millions on a long term contract for Rubens, an ageing driver, either that or they thought he was so bad a driver, keeping him just for his input wouldn't outway his lack of pace.

Don't get my wrong, Davidson is a good driver. But that's it. If he starts beating Sato by the end of the year, then he'll have done a good job. But there's nothing to suggest Davidson is better than Button and Rubens. That's as false as how highly Garry Walker and Ioan rate Michael Schumacher. You can't really critizise those guys, when your the same but about another driver.

In defense of Garry, I find his views on other aspects of F1, other than Michael, are quite genuine, and realistic. Only his love for Michael Schumacher takes away the validity of his posts.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm sure Honda miss Ant's input as a test driver, however this year's car was designed with last year's drivers input - including Anthony Davidson. They don't start designing the car in January when Ant left do they! 95% of the car was already done by the time Anthony Davidson left. So if you think the driver has that much of an input - and in particular Davidson, then that means Davidson has played a large role in Honda's lack of pace this year!!

Also, if Honda thought Davidson input was THAT valuable, they would have put him in the race seat, rather than spend millions on a long term contract for Rubens, an ageing driver, either that or they thought he was so bad a driver, keeping him just for his input wouldn't outway his lack of pace.

Don't get my wrong, Davidson is a good driver. But that's it. If he starts beating Sato by the end of the year, then he'll have done a good job. But there's nothing to suggest Davidson is better than Button and Rubens. That's as false as how highly Garry Walker and Ioan rate Michael Schumacher. You can't really critizise those guys, when your the same but about another driver.

In defense of Garry, I find his views on other aspects of F1, other than Michael, are quite genuine, and realistic. Only his love for Michael Schumacher takes away the validity of his posts.

Yeah!! let's blame ant for Honda's lousy car this year; it's all his fault. He should be ashamed of his input from last year.

Finally, I don't criticise Garry Walker as you might suggest (that is if you are referring to me), because his posts do not show up on my screen. And I find nothing wrong with ioan's high regard for SchM - after all, I think Murray has the same views also, and I respect his view too.

But this thread is about bunsen and not SchM, so let's leave that aside for the moment.

[raphael123]

Yeah!! let's blame ant for Honda's lousy car this year; it's all his fault. He should be ashamed of his input from last year.



Why not? If you are prepared to state that Honda's failure to produce a good car is down to the fact Anthony Davidson is no longer the test driver, why not blame the test driver involved in the feedback for this years car - which just so happened to be Anthony Davidson?

I don't think Honda's downfall is down their test driver, and I don't think Honda's past success was mainly down to their previous test drivers. It's YOU who suggested it was. So why you replied all sarcy is beyond me, unless its an attempt of humour? :)

I think the departure of Geoff Willis, who has consistently designed podium finishing cars (if not title challengers) for year after year at Williams and then at BAR and Honda.

[Roamy]

the buck stops with Nick Fry - get out the hook and yank is ass outta there

[Gannex]

I agree with you, fousto.

[F1woman]

Jenson Botton, can be WDC Honda is having a very bad season. In reality their have to forget about this year and forces on next year. Honda have the finance and know how to turn things around.

My personal opinion is Jenson should have stay with William. That 30 million pounds would have gone in to developing him a better car, then taking that money to buying himself out of his William contract. Next year could be the turning point but last year Honda was progressing so well. All I can say don't write Jenson off

[Roamy]

thanks gannex - I never could figure out how he got the job anyway - Also yank that Nakamoron out of there too. This team has too much money to be groveling around back in 15th

[ClarkFan]

Also, if Honda thought Davidson input was THAT valuable, they would have put him in the race seat, rather than spend millions on a long term contract for Rubens, an ageing driver, either that or they thought he was so bad a driver, keeping him just for his input wouldn't outway his lack of pace.

But there were other factors in play when Honda signed Rubens. At that point, Honda was not sure that Button might not go to Williams for 2006. Rubens was signed as a possible #1 for that year, should Williams not settle for financial compensation.

Was signing Rubens the best move Honda could have made? That is certainly open to debate. But I understand not being willing to bet on Davidson as #1 in his first full F1 season, and then not being willing to simply flush the money paid Rubens.

ClarkFan

P.S. And fouston hit the nail on the head. Fry is the constant factor in team management through three seasons with bad starts. :\

[baker]

The truth of the matter is that the future does not look bright for Jenson Button. Even if he could get out of his contract with Honda (and lets face it if anyone can get out of a contract it's Jenson) there don't look like being any vacancies at the top teams for the foreseeable future. So it looks like he's stuck with Honda and needs to pray that they can get out of the big mess they're currently in.

As others have said in this thread, Honda team personnel needs to change. Who? I tend to agree that it should be Fry (if he's really the one who calls the shots). The team needs to bring in someone who can identify the reasons for the team's poor performance and who is able to attract the right people to rectify the situation.

[ratonmacias]

buttons problem is honda, button is a mid pack driver, what do mid pack drivers needto shine? a kick ass car.

honda fired or chose not to resign willis, villeneuve and davidson and brought instead fry sato and barrichello.

willis was the only guy that could design a chassis to save honda. probably they were too good for him. then they bring gil de ferran who signs barrichello go figure.

[rlenis]

what future?

[BeansBeansBeans]

what future?

Well, he's a 27 year old man with almost 4 years remaining on an F1 contract with a major manufacturer. I'd say that he has a brighter future than most.

[BDunnell]

I'm sure Honda will miss Davidson's valuable input, but I don't think that his departure can be blamed for the wretched RA107. F1 design is far too complicated to blame a fundamentally badly-designed car solely on a change of test driver.

Just as it is to state that a great car is only great because of its test driver. I don't think anyone would ever suggest that, so why does it work the other way round?

[BeansBeansBeans]

Just as it is to state that a great car is only great because of its test driver. I don't think anyone would ever suggest that, so why does it work the other way round?

Exactly. Luca Badoer is an excellent tester, but if someone were to suggest that Ferrari owe all their recent success to him alone, it would sound ridiculous. Yet similar claims are regularly made on here (ie The BAR was quick in 2004 because Villeneuve developed it in 2003...etc)

[Valve Bounce]

Why not? If you are prepared to state that Honda's failure to produce a good car is down to the fact Anthony Davidson is no longer the test driver, why not blame the test driver involved in the feedback for this years car - which just so happened to be Anthony Davidson?

I don't think Honda's downfall is down their test driver, and I don't think Honda's past success was mainly down to their previous test drivers.
.


Agreed!! Let's tie him to a post and stone him until he cries. :D

[Valve Bounce]

Exactly. Luca Badoer is an excellent tester, but if someone were to suggest that Ferrari owe all their recent success to him alone, it would sound ridiculous. Yet similar claims are regularly made on here (ie The BAR was quick in 2004 because Villeneuve developed it in 2003...etc)


Let's have an in depth look at all this. (From another post), Gil de Ferran signed Rubens when Rubens was unhappy with his #2 role at Ferrari, when he considered himself able to challenge SchM (and he did), and because Gil de Ferran is an old friend, and because bunsen looked like heading for Williams.

So let's not stone Rubens.

As for test drivers, I always considered Luca Badoer the unsung hero at Ferrari, as he did help develop a very fast car; but don't forget that SchM was also one of the greatest test drivers himself, and helped develop the car for himself.

This here thread is about bunsen, and whether Honda are getting the right feedback since ant's departure or whether there are other factors involved in the development of this car is open to debate.

The fact remains that Honda, with all their resources, don't have a winning car this year.

[Valve Bounce]

In fact, I just wonder whether ant ever test drove this year's Honda at all. Can somebody shed some light on this?

[ClarkFan]

In fact, I just wonder whether ant ever test drove this year's Honda at all. Can somebody shed some light on this?

Ran a quick check on the 2006 year-end tests and it looks like the answer is no. Klien and Rossiter were the additional drivers. And Honda's 2006 post-season testing was focused on adapting to Bridgestone tires. And Honda was still developing the RA106 deep into 2006 - they had to, because the car started the year badly. By the time the RA107 trim was rolled out, Davidson was again working on the RA106 - for Super Aguri, alternating with Sato.

Davidson may not be a miracle worker, but the teams Button has driven for have never gained rapid improvements in an initially slow car. The best record was 2006, when Davidson was driving on Fridays. Was Button the issue? Was the thems (a pretty disfunctional lot)? Can't say, but that is the track record.

ClarkFan

[Valve Bounce]

Ran a quick check on the 2006 year-end tests and it looks like the answer is no. Klien and Rossiter were the additional drivers. And Honda's 2006 post-season testing was focused on adapting to Bridgestone tires. And Honda was still developing the RA106 deep into 2006 - they had to, because the car started the year badly. By the time the RA107 trim was rolled out, Davidson was again working on the RA106 - for Super Aguri, alternating with Sato.

Davidson may not be a miracle worker, but the teams Button has driven for have never gained rapid improvements in an initially slow car. The best record was 2006, when Davidson was driving on Fridays. Was Button the issue? Was the thems (a pretty disfunctional lot)? Can't say, but that is the track record.

ClarkFan

I do know that ant had been praised by the Honda team for his invaluable feedback during testing and friday practice. There was a reason that Dave Richards picked bunsen over ant to race the Honda, but you'll have to ask schnell about that - I've been sworn to secrecy. :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

There was a reason that Dave Richards picked bunsen over ant to race the Honda, but you'll have to ask schnell about that - I've been sworn to secrecy. :D

I've heard it rumoured that Button was considered a more marketable asset than Davidson, due to him being more handsome and more of a smooth-talker. This could be absolute nonsense of course. Who knows?

[ArrowsFA1]

In his F1 Racing column this month Alan Henry makes the point that JB remains highly regarded by those who matter in the F1 paddock. He quotes Patrick Head as saying that he's driving as well as Lewis Hamilton, but you wouldn't know that because of the performance of the Honda.

Who "those who matter" are is not revealed, but a GP winner does not become a bad driver during the off-season.

[Valve Bounce]

In his F1 Racing column this month Alan Henry makes the point that JB remains highly regarded by those who matter in the F1 paddock. He quotes Patrick Head as saying that he's driving as well as Lewis Hamilton, but you wouldn't know that because of the performance of the Honda.

Who "those who matter" are is not revealed, but a GP winner does not become a bad driver during the off-season.

Agreed. To be fair to bunsen, and taking a serious tack here, I can only conclude there is something wrong with the new Honda, its set up, its non performance/grip with the new tyres.

I don't know what the solution to this conundrum lies.

Sometimes, when posting here, a lot of guys including myself like a bit of funning around. Don't take my stirring too seriously, please! I just like a healthy debate and maybe anything to keep this forum from going quiet.

[ratonmacias]

I do know that ant had been praised by the Honda team for his invaluable feedback during testing and friday practice. There was a reason that Dave Richards picked bunsen over ant to race the Honda, but you'll have to ask schnell about that - I've been sworn to secrecy. :D

i think i remember buttons family has a friendship with richards. and no schnell was not my source.

[Garry Walker]

Why not? If you are prepared to state that Honda's failure to produce a good car is down to the fact Anthony Davidson is no longer the test driver, why not blame the test driver involved in the feedback for this years car - which just so happened to be Anthony Davidson?

I don't think Honda's downfall is down their test driver, and I don't think Honda's past success was mainly down to their previous test drivers. It's YOU who suggested it was. So why you replied all sarcy is beyond me, unless its an attempt of humour? :)


I agree, you have beaten valve bounce in this discussion clearly.


But there were other factors in play when Honda signed Rubens. At that point, Honda was not sure that Button might not go to Williams for 2006. Rubens was signed as a possible #1 for that year, should Williams not settle for financial compensation.

Was signing Rubens the best move Honda could have made? That is certainly open to debate. But I understand not being willing to bet on Davidson as #1 in his first full F1 season, and then not being willing to simply flush the money paid Rubens.


If Honda guys really thought ant is so talented, they would have given him the seat instead of Rubens. Afterall, he had a lot of experience already and knew most of the tracks. The fact that they went for Rubens speaks volumes about the fact that they didnt think Ant was quite up to it. They would know, they have all the data, they talk to him daily. Rubens is by far superior as a driver compared to Ant.



In fact, I just wonder whether ant ever test drove this year's Honda at all. Can somebody shed some light on this?

I dont think he did, but im sure he tested plenty of this years parts in the last years car.



There was a reason that Dave Richards picked bunsen over ant to race the Honda, but you'll have to ask schnell about that - I've been sworn to secrecy. :D

Thankfully I havent been sworn to secrecy, so i can reveal this very important secret - Button is simply a much better driver than davidson can ever hope to be.

[ArrowsFA1]

If Honda guys really thought ant is so talented, they would have given him the seat instead of Rubens. Afterall, he had a lot of experience already and knew most of the tracks. The fact that they went for Rubens speaks volumes about the fact that they didnt think Ant was quite up to it.
Really? Or was it because Honda, feeling ready to step up and challenge for a championship, wanted the experence Rubens could bring from being in a championship winning team?

Comments from Honda over the years Ant's been with the team suggest nothing other than he is highly regarded by them. Releasing him to Super Aguri makes sense from Honda's point of view in that it keeps him within the fold ready (I suspect) to return to the 'works' team within a year or two, and provides him with racing experience that testing simply cannot provide.

[Garry Walker]

Really? Or was it because Honda, feeling ready to step up and challenge for a championship, wanted the experence Rubens could bring from being in a championship winning team?

Comments from Honda over the years Ant's been with the team suggest nothing other than he is highly regarded by them. Releasing him to Super Aguri makes sense from Honda's point of view in that it keeps him within the fold ready (I suspect) to return to the 'works' team within a year or two, and provides him with racing experience that testing simply cannot provide.

okay, they wanted experience from Rubens. Now they had to choose between paying HUGE sums of money for Button, or getting Davidson for almost nothing. They know both guys speed, their testing skills, their personality. The situation was PERFECT for Davidson and Honda could have easily picked him if they wanted. But they didnt. Why? Ant fans will make up many versions, but the obvious one is the one that hurts them the most. They just dont think Davidson is good enough, they knew Button had better abilities. I also reckon that Honda will only hire Davidson as a racing driver for them as a last resort. For next year, if they are smart, they will go with RB and JB (both whom are clearly better than AD, or TS for that matter).

[raphael123]

I agree with Garry here. I think it's quite clear Honda rated Button and Rubens above that of Davidson. Honda could have had Rubens/Davidson, or Button/Davidson, both combinations would have resulted in one experienced driver, and one 'rookie'. However they choose to shell out millions of pounds on Rubens and Button. That's not to say they don't rate Davidson - I think they do. I think this year at the Super's is them giving him a stage to show what he can do, and then maybe when Ruben hangs up his helmet, or Button moves on, he will be one of their first choices. He reminds me of Heidfeld a bit, who started out at Prost, did ok, then moved to Saubers, did a solid job, outshone Webber (supposedly a future WC at one point!), and now doing great at BMW. I see Davidson as a solid good driver, nothing more at this stage. But as the season progresses I'm sure he'll improve, and he needs to start beating Sato by the end of the season to be considered more than a decent driver!

To suggest he's better than Button or Rubens is quite ridiculous when you look at the evidence. That's not to say it will always remain, but as things stand, Davidson is not on their level.

[Valve Bounce]

Really? Or was it because Honda, feeling ready to step up and challenge for a championship, wanted the experence Rubens could bring from being in a championship winning team?

Comments from Honda over the years Ant's been with the team suggest nothing other than he is highly regarded by them. Releasing him to Super Aguri makes sense from Honda's point of view in that it keeps him within the fold ready (I suspect) to return to the 'works' team within a year or two, and provides him with racing experience that testing simply cannot provide.

I don't know how many times we have to ost this: Rubens was hired when it seemed that bunsen was going to Williams, and Rubens had, on some occasions, out-raced possibly the best driver ever in F1. I see nothing wrong with that.

That bunsen re-negged on his Williams contractual obligations has been discussed in detail here in this forum, and he ended up back at Honda.

[ArrowsFA1]

Rubens was hired when it seemed that bunsen was going to Williams...
I'd forgotten about that :dozey:

[raphael123]

I don't know how many times we have to ost this: Rubens was hired when it seemed that bunsen was going to Williams, and Rubens had, on some occasions, out-raced possibly the best driver ever in F1. I see nothing wrong with that.

That bunsen re-negged on his Williams contractual obligations has been discussed in detail here in this forum, and he ended up back at Honda.

Ok, but then they still choose Button over Davidson, and paid a hefty price for it too!! If they thought they wouldn't lose anything, or much by having Davidson rather than Button, they would have done so. But they obviously felt what Button brings to the team far greater than what Davidson could.

Therefore the idea that Davidson is a better driver than Button already is ridiculous. The evidence suggests the complete opposite.

There's being a fan, but then there's being blinded by the obvious - which isn't all that much of a good thing!

[Valve Bounce]

Ok, but then they still choose Button over Davidson, and paid a hefty price for it too!! If they thought they wouldn't lose anything, or much by having Davidson rather than Button, they would have done so. But they obviously felt what Button brings to the team far greater than what Davidson could.

Therefore the idea that Davidson is a better driver than Button already is ridiculous. The evidence suggests the complete opposite.

There's being a fan, but then there's being blinded by the obvious - which isn't all that much of a good thing!


I agree with you. There is nothing so far in F1 that indicates that ant is a better driver than bunsen. We'll just have to wait to see how this pans out, won't we!

However, you do claim that Sato is the better driver than ant, and I am willing to bet my sig that by mid year, ant will prove by positions gained in races that he is the better driver than Sato. Would you care to bet your sig on that?

[Ian McC]

Ok, but then they still choose Button over Davidson, and paid a hefty price for it too!!

I don't think money is much of an object for Honda, as it stands I expect when the time comes Ant will be back at Honda, they probably decided a season or two would do him good in a lower team whilst they went with experienced drivers.

Looking at things as they stand it is difficult to make an objective choice between any of them, the Honda is a crap car and would still be a crap car if Ant was driving it.

[Hazell B]

I'm with McC on this - money wasn't the motivation and neither was driving ability to some extent. Jenson Button's very good at PR, Ant bless him not so. I'd employ Button instead of Ant if I were in Honda's line of business - and I don't rate his driving much at all!

[Valve Bounce]

Both Williams and Honda must have had sponsors lined up which would have been/were jeopardised by a bunsen no-show. Williams said so! and explained that was why he didn't want to let bunsen out of his contractual agreement.

[BDunnell]

I'm with McC on this - money wasn't the motivation and neither was driving ability to some extent. Jenson Button's very good at PR, Ant bless him not so. I'd employ Button instead of Ant if I were in Honda's line of business - and I don't rate his driving much at all!

Don't Davidson's outstanding appearances as a commentator count towards someone's PR qualities? To my mind, they do rather more so than how often someone gets in the tabloids, but maybe I'm being old-fashioned.

[Valve Bounce]

Bunsen had immense attraction for sponsors - I don't think ant could match that at all. His commentating on radio wouldn't go anywhere near attracting the high paying sponsors that F1 teams need.

In this respect, ant is lucky to be in F1, due in no small way to his driving/testing abilities and his loyalty to Team Honda.

[Valve Bounce]

I think the subject of ant going anywhere and/or Rubens going anywhere next year could become academic if Honda decides to run a 4 car team with identical cars, two under the banner of Super Aguri.

[raphael123]

I'm with McC on this - money wasn't the motivation and neither was driving ability to some extent. Jenson Button's very good at PR, Ant bless him not so. I'd employ Button instead of Ant if I were in Honda's line of business - and I don't rate his driving much at all!

Are you suggesting Honda have hired Button for his PR skills more so than his driving?

Do you really expect people to take that comment seriously?!

And I agree with BDunnell, Anthony Davidson comes across very well in interviews. His profile is not that of Button, but when it comes to PR skills he's as good as Button, if not even slightly more PR orientated! Unless you meant to say his profile - but then again, very few drivers come into F1 with a big profile anyway.

And to say money is no factor for Honda is naivety on people's part - Honda wouldn't shell out millions of pounds on just getting a driver out of his contract, and then offer him a 4-5yr drive deal if they didn't rate him very highly indeed!!

Oh of course, I forgot, it's for his 'PR skills'.....come on!! :dozey:

[BeansBeansBeans]

Are you suggesting Honda have hired Button for his PR skills more so than his driving?

Do you really expect people to take that comment seriously?!

Don't worry raphael. What Hazell knows about Grand Prix racing could be written on the back of a stamp. However, if you need any tips about mucking out cows and sheep, she's your man.

[raphael123]

Don't worry raphael. What Hazell knows about Grand Prix racing could be written on the back of a stamp. However, if you need any tips about mucking out cows and sheep, she's your man.

lol cool beans :up:

I'll keep that in mind in future discussions :up:

[Valve Bounce]

Are you suggesting Honda have hired Button for his PR skills more so than his driving?

Do you really expect people to take that comment seriously?!


:dozey:


As I posted earlier, bunsen was fought over because he was able to bring a lot of endorsements/sponsorship for Williams. Do you dispute this?

[raphael123]

As I posted earlier, bunsen was fought over because he was able to bring a lot of endorsements/sponsorship for Williams. Do you dispute this?

I'll post it again for you to read 'Are you suggesting Honda have hired Button for his PR skills more so than his driving?'

Now tell me where I have denied he brings a lot of endorsements and sponsorship? :)

And now answer me this; are you trying to tell me Honda gave Button a multi year multi million contract (isn't he the 3/4th best paid driver?!) for his PR skills, and high profile, more so than his driving capabilities?

Is this you trying to create a new angle, to try and fool people into believing that Button and Davidson are the same talent wise, and Honda only have Button rather than Davidson, because Button has a higher profile? :dozey:

[Hazell B]

Don't worry raphael. What Hazell knows about Grand Prix racing could be written on the back of a stamp. However, if you need any tips about mucking out cows and sheep, she's your man.


Haven't you got any friends you can quote? Sorry, of course not :laugh:

No, I did not say Button was chosen for his PR skills alone. Didn't even hint at it. I said he was employed, as Valve said, because he has better skills than Davidson in that department, plus good enough driving skills. Not brilliant driving skills (and no, I won't say which of the two I think is the better driver) but good enough.

A few days on a mike for TV or radio audiences doesn't mean a thing as far as GP PR goes. What they want is somebody who'll look right carrying a specific mobile, wearing a certain watch and then appear and chat happily to sponsors at events away from racing. Button has the lifestyle sponsors love. He's easily airbrushed to look good in full page glossy ads, while Davidson isn't quite the model.

Anyway, Button's had his turn in the ITV mike stakes. He did okay.

[raphael123]

Hazell, this is F1, not a modelling agency - get a grip! You may not like the guy, fair enough, but the things your coming out with are ridiculous!

And how can you say you didn't even hint he was choosen for his PR skills rather than driving skills when you said 'money wasn't the motivation and neither was driving ability to some extent. Jenson Button's very good at PR'

So your saying it wasn't the money, and it wasn't really his driving ability. And then say he is very good at PR. That to me states you rate his PR skills above all else of his qualities.

And why won't you state who is a better driver? Anthony or Jenson? Is it because if you say Anthony, you know you can't back it up? I wonder :dozey:

Your worse than Garry and Ioan when it comes to supporting/hating (disliking) a driver with blindfolds!

[Valve Bounce]

I'll post it again for you to read 'Are you suggesting Honda have hired Button for his PR skills more so than his driving?'

Now tell me where I have denied he brings a lot of endorsements and sponsorship? :)

And now answer me this; are you trying to tell me Honda gave Button a multi year multi million contract (isn't he the 3/4th best paid driver?!) for his PR skills, and high profile, more so than his driving capabilities?

Is this you trying to create a new angle, to try and fool people into believing that Button and Davidson are the same talent wise, and Honda only have Button rather than Davidson, because Button has a higher profile? :dozey:


I am just saying that Williams wanted to hang onto bunsen because of his ability to bring in oodles of money. Ant was never in this league. What PR has to do with the hiring of a driver apart from bringing in money from sponsors is interesting. As far as bunsen wanting to re-nege on his Williams deal, Honda publicly stayed right out of this - it has been widely rumoured that Honda agreed to fund bunsen's bailout from Williams by tying bunsen to the team on a long term contract.

At the time, Honda believed that bunsen was the driver they needed to bring them the championship. I don't think ant was thought of by Honda as anything other than a great test driver who could also help set up the cars during friday practice. You will also remember that when Williams wanted to give ant a trial, Honda played the dog in the manger and denied ant this chance. Your claim that ant was good if not better than bunsen with PR is irrelevant to the hiring of a driver - in this regard, Murray would probably murder ant in the PR stakes also.

But regarding your last paragraph, it must be embarrasing for bunsen to see his ex test driver qualify and run ahead of him in lst years car run by a budget team with a small fraction of Team Honda's resources. Maybe ant is the better driver - let's wait and see how he contiues to race his illustrous rival .

You did insist that Sato is a better driver than ant, but I don't see you wanting to put your sig where your mouth is.

[raphael123]

Valve

I am just saying that Williams wanted to hang onto bunsen because of his ability to bring in oodles of money. Ant was never in this league. What PR has to do with the hiring of a driver apart from bringing in money from sponsors is interesting. As far as bunsen wanting to re-nege on his Williams deal, Honda publicly stayed right out of this - it has been widely rumoured that Honda agreed to fund bunsen's bailout from Williams by tying bunsen to the team on a long term contract.


Can you call him Button please?!
And yes, Button bought himself out of the contract, but Honda basically paid that money back by giving him an enormous pay increase.



At the time, Honda believed that bunsen was the driver they needed to bring them the championship. I don't think ant was thought of by Honda as anything other than a great test driver who could also help set up the cars during friday practice. You will also remember that when Williams wanted to give ant a trial, Honda played the dog in the manger and denied ant this chance. Your claim that ant was good if not better than bunsen with PR is irrelevant to the hiring of a driver - in this regard, Murray would probably murder ant in the PR stakes also.


I think Honda still believe Button is the man to bring them a championship. Kimi and Alonso are out of reach, and the next best thing is Button.

I don't think how good a driver is at PR is a big factor - it's not me stating that! It's your fellow Ant lover Hazell. I'm glad you agree (even though you did say earlier 'Bunsen had immense attraction for sponsors - I don't think ant could match that at all' which suggests you think Ant wasn't given a chance because of his lack of attractions to sponsors), which means they picked Button over Ant over who they thought was the better driver.



But regarding your last paragraph, it must be embarrasing for bunsen to see his ex test driver qualify and run ahead of him in lst years car run by a budget team with a small fraction of Team Honda's resources. Maybe ant is the better driver - let's wait and see how he contiues to race his illustrous rival .


I don't think it's an embarrassing for Button - because it's not a reflection on his talent, it's more a reflection of how poor that car is. Even the man who could beat Schumacher on his day can't do much better.


You did insist that Sato is a better driver than ant, but I don't see you wanting to put your sig where your mouth is.

That's because I think that's immature, and I don't have a sig :) I know you've said in the past it's just a bit of fun, but it's not really my idea of fun :dozey:

Saying that, I'm talking about Sato and Davidson now, which I think is quite clear Sato has the upperhand. However, I do rate Davidson, I think come the end of the season, Davidson should be at least matching Sato, and if he deserves a race seat at Honda, he will have to be beating him consistently, and I wouldn't put that past him :)

[Roamy]

Honda has made some big errors in their management of the team. Now the problem is that they have affected Button's career through mismanagement. Now it is getting tough to tell how good he is. One thing is that a top driver will lose a few tenths when and if the car is a flaming pig such as this years Honda. While the car may be more suitable for RB, Button has no need to overrisk his life with the pig. RB on the other hand must impress to retain his seat. Unless some clear direction is upward is found, Button should look to escape. I would assume Button's contract has a performance escape claus.

[ratonmacias]

right on fousto i doubt button will think " if i drive the balls off this pos i will get 14th lets go for it dammit" 13th is the limit weeeeeeee¡¡¡¡

[jens]

About the discussion about that Button-Barrichello-Davidson triangle. Well, to me it's quite clear that Honda rates their current factory drivers higher than Davidson or at least they did so in 2005, when they signed contracts with JB and RB. As simple as that. But it doesn't mean that they don't rate Davidson at all - just fractionally lower!

About Barrichello - one said that he must impress to retain his seat. But on the other hand - I think he may well voluntarily retire. If you have driven a competitive car since 1999 (by 'competitive' I mean driving at least in point positions) and now suddenly in 2007 he is far from point positions and you're 35 years old, then I guess that there really isn't much to catch and it's tough to keep motivation. Although so far it seems that Barrichello has been able to push more than Button, but then - who doesn't want to drive as well as possible at the end of a career no matter how crap the car is?

The only reason why Barrichello might be interested in lengthening the contract with Honda is "the soul of a racing driver" (something like Alboreto had during 1989-1994 - I still can't understand how a former championship title contender had motivation to drive for six (!) consecutive seasons in uncompetitive teams!!) to continue enjoying racing and the wish to beat Patrese's record.

[Hazell B]

Hazell, this is F1, not a modelling agency - get a grip! You may not like the guy, fair enough, but the things your coming out with are ridiculous!




Are they indeed? I could list some drivers who're plain rubbish yet were in seats because of the cash their sponsors brought in or purely for a country's PR - and they'd more than cover a postage stamp :laugh:

PR is vital in most motorsport. All classes are full of dire drivers who just happen to please a sponsor enough to fund the drive. F1 may not have one single sponsor forking out for a driver, but Honda sure as hell have funds coming in just off Button's PR skill and lifestyle.

Try looking at driver earnings for driving and endorsements ..... MS led the world's sportsmen and women for several years on advertising income alone until Tiger Woods signed new deals. Button won't be in the top ten, but I bet he's pretty high in the PR stakes over all the world's sportsmen and women.

[Valve Bounce]

Valve


Can you call him Button please?!
And yes, Button bought himself out of the contract, but Honda basically paid that money back by giving him an enormous pay increase.



I think Honda still believe Button is the man to bring them a championship. Kimi and Alonso are out of reach, and the next best thing is Button.

I don't think how good a driver is at PR is a big factor - it's not me stating that! It's your fellow Ant lover Hazell. I'm glad you agree (even though you did say earlier 'Bunsen had immense attraction for sponsors - I don't think ant could match that at all' which suggests you think Ant wasn't given a chance because of his lack of attractions to sponsors), which means they picked Button over Ant over who they thought was the better driver.



I don't think it's an embarrassing for Button - because it's not a reflection on his talent, it's more a reflection of how poor that car is. Even the man who could beat Schumacher on his day can't do much better.



That's because I think that's immature, and I don't have a sig :) I know you've said in the past it's just a bit of fun, but it's not really my idea of fun :dozey:

Saying that, I'm talking about Sato and Davidson now, which I think is quite clear Sato has the upperhand. However, I do rate Davidson, I think come the end of the season, Davidson should be at least matching Sato, and if he deserves a race seat at Honda, he will have to be beating him consistently, and I wouldn't put that past him :)

Bunsen (I choose to call him that here) will never win the WDC and in fact he'd be lucky to win another race.

As for the reason why Richards picked bunsen over ant, you'll have to ask schnell.

I do think that it is embarrassing for bunsen if ant, in last year's car, could beat him at Monaco this year. Betting on a sig is not immature - it's having the courage of your convictions and proving it. Otherwise, you're all talk and no courage to put up. It's like put up or button up.

And last, but not least, ant will consistantly out drive Sato from now on, not by the end of the season.

You see, I do have the courage of my convictions, I'll bet my sig on it, and admit I am wrong if proven wrong, by wearing it on my sig. If bunsen beats ant at Monaco, I'll show my recognition by changing my sig to : bunsen is the greatest! If he doesn't, then I'll think of something else.

[555-04Q2]

If you have driven a competitive car since 1999 (by 'competitive' I mean driving at least in point positions) and now suddenly in 2007 he is far from point positions and you're 35 years old, then I guess that there really isn't much to catch and it's tough to keep motivation.

Someone should tell DC that.

[Scuderia ferrari]

He needs to get in a better team, and even then, he probably won't win a championship. The odd race here and there in a better team, but never a championship, not with the fabolous 4 still aroun, Raikonen, Massa, Alonso and Hamilton

[raphael123]

Are they indeed? I could list some drivers who're plain rubbish yet were in seats because of the cash their sponsors brought in or purely for a country's PR - and they'd more than cover a postage stamp :laugh:

PR is vital in most motorsport. All classes are full of dire drivers who just happen to please a sponsor enough to fund the drive. F1 may not have one single sponsor forking out for a driver, but Honda sure as hell have funds coming in just off Button's PR skill and lifestyle.

Try looking at driver earnings for driving and endorsements ..... MS led the world's sportsmen and women for several years on advertising income alone until Tiger Woods signed new deals. Button won't be in the top ten, but I bet he's pretty high in the PR stakes over all the world's sportsmen and women.

Oh please. Some team's do need drivers who bring in sponsors, and hire sh!t drivers for the sponsorship they bring, but not Honda! They don't have money problems (you'll be hard pressed to find someone who thinks Honda have money problems). It's like saying Ferrari hired Schumacher for his sponsorship rather than his talent :dozey: Button is in the Top 3/4 best paid drivers, and it's definately not because he's a good looking lad and good with the press they pay him that well! It's because they rate him.

I don't think I can seriously have a discussion with someone who thinks Anthony Davidson deserves a drive in Honda, over Jenson Button, when this guy is struggling to even match Button's ex-team-mate, who was completely annihilated by Button! And all this because he's good looking and good with the press! Your seriously trying to convince yourself that one of the biggest teams in F1, and one of the most successful names in the history of the sport, is choosing it's drivers now by how good they talk with the press rather than their driver ability. It's ludicrous! Some people there's no reasoning, even when all the facts are put infront of them, they still refuse to see the obvious.

Not many people here seem to be as shocked as me, so does everyone here agree with Hazzell then ? :dozey:

[raphael123]

Bunsen (I choose to call him that here) will never win the WDC and in fact he'd be lucky to win another race.

As for the reason why Richards picked bunsen over ant, you'll have to ask schnell.


I don't think we need to ask a forumer who claims to be on the inside why. Richards himself told us numerous times, as has Fry - they think the man is championship quality. That's not being disrespectful to Anthony, they simply, having worked with both of them for a number of years, compared waht they do in testing etc, think Button is better. And to be frank, they are in a better position to judge than us - and yes, that includes this schnell guy :)



I do think that it is embarrassing for bunsen if ant, in last year's car, could beat him at Monaco this year. Betting on a sig is not immature - it's having the courage of your convictions and proving it. Otherwise, you're all talk and no courage to put up. It's like put up or button up.


It's embarrassing for Team Honda, so I guess that includes Button. But it's not embarassing for Button in terms of his ability as an F1 driver - just the incompetence of Honda Team.




And last, but not least, ant will consistantly out drive Sato from now on, not by the end of the season.

You see, I do have the courage of my convictions, I'll bet my sig on it, and admit I am wrong if proven wrong, by wearing it on my sig. If bunsen beats ant at Monaco, I'll show my recognition by changing my sig to : bunsen is the greatest! If he doesn't, then I'll think of something else.

Mate - betting a petty sig on an internet forum behind your PC screen does not show you 'have the courage of your convictions'! How old are you! I didn't want to say it this harshly, but I've said I find sig bets extremely immature and petty a number of times now, so I'm hardly going to say yes to your proposition - and you continue to say it as if I'm chickening out. It's not that at all, I just think it's a sad thing to do. I'd be a hypocrite if I know agreed to do something I've previously stated is pathetic. Also, it'd be disrespectful doing something you obviously rate so highly, when I wouldn't be taking it seriously :) I hope you leave it as that concerning this stupid sig bet :up:

I'm still interested in hearing you back up why you think Davidson is better than Button with facts rather than 'oh, Button was bringing in loads of sponsorship'. We knows Williams stated they wouldn't let him leave because of committments of sponsorship, but Honda never stated that as the reason they wanted to keep him. And even then, though it may have had a minor impact, to suggest a team like Honda select their drivers through their looks and PR abilities over their talent is ridiculous (which you have said it's not a factor in hiring a driver anyway which I'm glad :) ). So where you get the evidence, apart from the fact Ant is doing better in last years car (which is worse), there is nothing to suggest that, and your view is very much in the minority, no matter how many times you say it, or how loudly.

[Valve Bounce]

Mate - betting a petty sig on an internet forum behind your PC screen does not show you 'have the courage of your convictions'! How old are you! I didn't want to say it this harshly, but I've said I find sig bets extremely immature and petty a number of times now, so I'm hardly going to say yes to your proposition - and you continue to say it as if I'm chickening out. It's not that at all, I just think it's a sad thing to do. I'd be a hypocrite if I know agreed to do something I've previously stated is pathetic. Also, it'd be disrespectful doing something you obviously rate so highly, when I wouldn't be taking it seriously :) I hope you leave it as that concerning this stupid sig bet :up:



First of all, you an take it that I am a helluva lot older than you. I remember thte sound of the Japanese bombs falling on us when I was a child.

Secondly, in Australia, theres a saying: put up or shut up. If you can't put up, then shut up.

Betting on our sigs is a tradition in this forum, and if you don't like it, that's your issue, not mine.

Basically, I find it that you are scared to show any admission that you have been wrong, that's what it looks like to me.

[raphael123]

First of all, you an take it that I am a helluva lot older than you. I remember thte sound of the Japanese bombs falling on us when I was a child.

Secondly, in Australia, theres a saying: put up or shut up. If you can't put up, then shut up.

Betting on our sigs is a tradition in this forum, and if you don't like it, that's your issue, not mine.

Basically, I find it that you are scared to show any admission that you have been wrong, that's what it looks like to me.

Oh dear god. I've explained to you I don't think betting sigs is 'my thing' to be honest. Can't you just accept that.

What exactly would you want me to admit to by the way? That Davidson is better than Sato at the moment? No, I don't think he is. But in a few races time, I do expect Davidson to at least be matching Sato, and by the end of the season, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he is beating Sato. So what exactly do you want me to 'bet' on anyway?

And while your at it, I may as well ask you again as you failed to answer it last time, can you tell me why you rate Davidson higher than Button? What do you base this on? :)

[Valve Bounce]

Oh dear god. I've explained to you I don't think betting sigs is 'my thing' to be honest. Can't you just accept that.

What exactly would you want me to admit to by the way? That Davidson is better than Sato at the moment? No, I don't think he is. But in a few races time, I do expect Davidson to at least be matching Sato, and by the end of the season, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he is beating Sato. So what exactly do you want me to 'bet' on anyway?

And while your at it, I may as well ask you again as you failed to answer it last time, can you tell me why you rate Davidson higher than Button? What do you base this on? :)

First of all, if you don't like betting on sigs to admit you are wrong, then what can I say? You don't want to put up, is that it?

Secondly, I rate ant as high as bunsen if not higher because I have the DVD of their battles of yore. I think ant has the tenacity that bunsen lacks. Intestinel fortitude, if you prefer to call it.

Finally, if you want a friendly bet: just the loser write a post to herald what happened: ant vs bunsen at Monaco.

[raphael123]

First of all, if you don't like betting on sigs to admit you are wrong, then what can I say? You don't want to put up, is that it?

Secondly, I rate ant as high as bunsen if not higher because I have the DVD of their battles of yore. I think ant has the tenacity that bunsen lacks. Intestinel fortitude, if you prefer to call it.

Finally, if you want a friendly bet: just the loser write a post to herald what happened: ant vs bunsen at Monaco.

Ok Valve. I won't answer any of these questions, till you answer my question. What exactly do you want to bet on? Be specific. Please. I'm not saying I'm going to bet, as that would be hypocritical of me. However I'll happily make a statement, and if it turns out I was wrong, I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong.

Fire away, what do you 'bet' me on? :up:

[Valve Bounce]

Ok Valve. I won't answer any of these questions, till you answer my question. What exactly do you want to bet on? Be specific. Please. I'm not saying I'm going to bet, as that would be hypocritical of me. However I'll happily make a statement, and if it turns out I was wrong, I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong.

Fire away, what do you 'bet' me on? :up:

Straight bet: ant against bunsen at Monaco.

[raphael123]

Straight bet: ant against bunsen at Monaco.

I thought originally you were stating about Sato? :dozey:

I'd bet on that, but I think your probably right, Anthony will beat Button there, unless Honda come up with some serious improvements on the car to make it better than the Supers.

Are these battles of Ant Vs Button on DVD before F1? What year was this in?

[Valve Bounce]

I thought originally you were stating about Sato? :dozey:

I'd bet on that, but I think your probably right, Anthony will beat Button there, unless Honda come up with some serious improvements on the car to make it better than the Supers.

Are these battles of Ant Vs Button on DVD before F1? What year was this in?


Ask schnell - he has the DVD. Basically it includes ants races in kart right up to F3.

As for the bet - you can have both Sato and bunsen. I'll back ant. That is more than fair.

[raphael123]

Ask schnell - he has the DVD. Basically it includes ants races in kart right up to F3.

As for the bet - you can have both Sato and bunsen. I'll back ant. That is more than fair.

Basing your whole arguement that Ant is better than Button, on clips which are at most 20yrs old, and at most recent, nearly 10yrs old doesn't really say much if that's all you could come up with.

Pizzonia shone in the lower formula's, and he didn't exactly exceed in F1 did he. Same for Sato.

I do think Sato has the edge on Davidson, however I would agree with you, it's perfectly possible that Davidson could well match, and beat Sato after a couple more races :) It was the statement that you rate Ant higher than Button, with nothing to back it up apart from performances when they were kids which I disagreed with.

If they were in equal machinery, I would be happy to say I expect Button to beat Ant, but they are in different cars unfortunately.

[Valve Bounce]

Basing your whole arguement that Ant is better than Button, on clips which are at most 20yrs old, and at most recent, nearly 10yrs old doesn't really say much if that's all you could come up with.

Pizzonia shone in the lower formula's, and he didn't exactly exceed in F1 did he. Same for Sato.

I do think Sato has the edge on Davidson, however I would agree with you, it's perfectly possible that Davidson could well match, and beat Sato after a couple more races :) It was the statement that you rate Ant higher than Button, with nothing to back it up apart from performances when they were kids which I disagreed with.

If they were in equal machinery, I would be happy to say I expect Button to beat Ant, but they are in different cars unfortunately.

OK, you don't want to bet. Fair enough. I think ant is the better driver, you think bunsen is the better driver, I base my view on what I like about the guy, his testing, his friday practice, you like bunsen. Doesn't make much sense, but then I am a betting man. We'll just have to wait to see who is the better driver.

Sometimes a guy has a lucky break - it might just go right down to two guys sitting on a knoll watching their kids race. Afterwards, one goes home while the other heads for the right guy in charge. Luck of the break.

I gave you both bunsen and Sato for Monaco against ant - take it or leave it.

[raphael123]

OK, you don't want to bet. Fair enough. I think ant is the better driver, you think bunsen is the better driver, I base my view on what I like about the guy, his testing, his friday practice, you like bunsen. Doesn't make much sense, but then I am a betting man. We'll just have to wait to see who is the better driver.

Sometimes a guy has a lucky break - it might just go right down to two guys sitting on a knoll watching their kids race. Afterwards, one goes home while the other heads for the right guy in charge. Luck of the break.

I gave you both bunsen and Sato for Monaco against ant - take it or leave it.

I don't particular like Button. I just rate him as a better driver than Davidson - on facts and evidence. The fact Button destroyed Sato during their 2yrs together, and Davidson is now struggling to match Davidson, suggests Button is a better driver. Let's not forget that Davidson isn't new to F1 is he - he's been testing for years! But he is new to F1 Racing, so he is a rookie. If he wants to get any sort of good reputation, then he's going to have to beat Sato consistently by the end of the season, and I think that's definately a possibility! Because believe it or not, I do rate Davidson quite highly - though certain people on here are starting to make me think twice about whether I want to see this guy suceed (but I do!).

I would bet, but a) I think it's a bit petty and immature, a b) it won't prove anything. At least not against Button.

It's like me asking you to bet that Hill would have beaten Schumacher in 96. We all know Schuamcher was a better driver than Hill, but Hill beat him because of his car. Does that prove Hill was better than Schumacher that year? Of course not!

The same applies with this Anthony Davidson Vs Jenson Button in Monaco.
Sato Vs Davidson is more valid. But I wouldn't bet that, because I think it's quite likely that Davidson will beat Sato, and I hope he does too :up:

[Valve Bounce]

OK, you've got me beat. I can't offer you anymore than what I already have.
Do we have a bet, or are you just going to sit on the fence?
If you like, you can bet on ant, and I'll take bunsen and/or Sato - whichever you want. What do you say?

[raphael123]

Valve, surely it's not that hard of a concept to understand?

Betting on whether Ant can beat Button, or Button beat Ant won't prove anything - they have cars of different performances. It won't prove who's the better driver!

Why would I beat on Sato beating Ant, when I think it's highly likely? And why would I beat Ant beating Sato, when I don't think it's unlikely? If I thought Sato was much better than Ant, I may do, if I thought Ant was way better than Sato, I would do.

Does that make sense? I hope so!

[Valve Bounce]

Valve, surely it's not that hard of a concept to understand?

Betting on whether Ant can beat Button, or Button beat Ant won't prove anything - they have cars of different performances. It won't prove who's the better driver!

Why would I beat on Sato beating Ant, when I think it's highly likely? And why would I beat Ant beating Sato, when I don't think it's unlikely? If I thought Sato was much better than Ant, I may do, if I thought Ant was way better than Sato, I would do.

Does that make sense? I hope so!
Look!! I give up. Just go down to the corner newsagent and buy yourself a lottery ticket. :(

[raphael123]

Look!! I give up. Just go down to the corner newsagent and buy yourself a lottery ticket. :(

Consider it done. I'd only bet on something I believed in, or if I thought it would prove something. None of yours satisfied my criteria :D

[Hazell B]

Oh please. Some team's do need drivers who bring in sponsors, and hire sh!t drivers for the sponsorship they bring, but not Honda! They don't have money problems (you'll be hard pressed to find someone who thinks Honda have money problems).
I don't think I can seriously have a discussion with someone who thinks Anthony Davidson deserves a drive in Honda, over Jenson Button...


Are you a bit mixed up or something? I didn't say either of the above. I said Button's ability with the PR side is why he was employed above Davidson in my opinion. I didn't say I'd employ Davidson over Button in their place - in fact I'd hire Button and hate myself for it.

You're getting far too serious about this. Calm down, it's just opinions.

[Valve Bounce]

Are you a bit mixed up or something? I didn't say either of the above. I said Button's ability with the PR side is why he was employed above Davidson in my opinion. I didn't say I'd employ Davidson over Button in their place - in fact I'd hire Button and hate myself for it.

You're getting far too serious about this. Calm down, it's just opinions.


Why on earth would you hire bunsen when ant is the better driver?

[Hazell B]

I didn't say Davidson's a better driver, either! Now you're both inventing stuff I've said :p :

To be honest, in equal cars, Davidson's still got the prove himself a little more. If I was pushed and needed a driver for this next race of the two I would pick the loathesome Button ..... but on a very short contract :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't say Davidson's a better driver, either! Now you're both inventing stuff I've said :p :

:p :


No dear, I did!! I said ant was the better driver.

[Ian McC]

Well the question wont be answered until they are both in the same car, as to if that might happen next year, time will tell.

[Valve Bounce]

Well the question wont be answered until they are both in the same car, as to if that might happen next year, time will tell.


Maybe not: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31253

[Roamy]

I think button is a very fast driver that lacks aggression needed to get to the top. So far AD is just not showing

[pino]

I think button is a very fast driver that lacks aggression needed to get to the top. So far AD is just not showing

uncle, you need a good and fast car to be aggressive, Button's problem is the car, that's all !

[Valve Bounce]

uncle, you need a good and fast car to be aggressive, Button's problem is the car, that's all !


I don't think so. Other drivers have shown they can be aggresive and race against the next faster car even when they have a lousy car. Take the case of Sutil: he thinks he can achieve like Sato did three years ago, and he hasn't got a fast car. However, aggresion needs to be tempered with reality - no good running into other cars just because yours (figuratively ) is slower.

Mark Webber was the classic example of controlled aggresion, always racing against cars which were faster.

[raphael123]

Are you a bit mixed up or something? I didn't say either of the above. I said Button's ability with the PR side is why he was employed above Davidson in my opinion. I didn't say I'd employ Davidson over Button in their place - in fact I'd hire Button and hate myself for it.

You're getting far too serious about this. Calm down, it's just opinions.

I claimed it was ridiculous to claim a team like Honda would pick a driver for his PR skills over his driving abilities, as we were discussing the fact Button was choosen over Anthony Davidson. You replied - 'Are they indeed? (referring to whether it is ridiculous) I could list some drivers who're plain rubbish yet were in seats because of the cash their sponsors brought in or purely for a country's PR - and they'd more than cover a postage stamp

PR is vital in most motorsport. All classes are full of dire drivers who just happen to please a sponsor enough to fund the drive. F1 may not have one single sponsor forking out for a driver, but Honda sure as hell have funds coming in just off Button's PR skill and lifestyle'.

You also said - I said he was employed, as Valve said, because he has better skills than Davidson in that department (here your referring to his PR skills), plus good enough driving skills.'

So if you know take back that you've never said teams choose drivers on their PR skills, and that if you take away the PR skills, Davidson is better, fair enough.

But don't try and deny it, when you clearly have said otherwise. Button I heard is on £50m for a 5yr deal. He's picked for his talent, not his good looks and PR skills. Even if he was a moody ugly guy, I think Honda would fork out the money they currently are on him.

[Valve Bounce]

I claimed it was ridiculous to claim a team like Honda would pick a driver for his PR skills over his driving abilities, as we were discussing the fact Button was choosen over Anthony Davidson. You replied - 'Are they indeed? (referring to whether it is ridiculous) I could list some drivers who're plain rubbish yet were in seats because of the cash their sponsors brought in or purely for a country's PR - and they'd more than cover a postage stamp

PR is vital in most motorsport. All classes are full of dire drivers who just happen to please a sponsor enough to fund the drive. F1 may not have one single sponsor forking out for a driver, but Honda sure as hell have funds coming in just off Button's PR skill and lifestyle'.

You also said - I said he was employed, as Valve said, because he has better skills than Davidson in that department (here your referring to his PR skills), plus good enough driving skills.'

So if you know take back that you've never said teams choose drivers on their PR skills, and that if you take away the PR skills, Davidson is better, fair enough.

But don't try and deny it, when you clearly have said otherwise. Button I heard is on £50m for a 5yr deal. He's picked for his talent, not his good looks and PR skills. Even if he was a moody ugly guy, I think Honda would fork out the money they currently are on him.


PLease don't place too much on what I say here: this is a discussion forum, much of which is based on opinions and gut feeling, especially when the facts are obscured by things like bad year for a particular car, bad luck, reliability issues, and so on. Never let the facts get in the way of a good ribbing. :p :

Honda trully believed that Bunsen would bring them the WDC - now that would seem a very remote eventuality; it would take massive ill fortunes at Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, and BMW for that to happen. I certainly wouldn't even bet a bent penny on that ever happening.

I think that article in pitpass says it all.

[raphael123]

PLease don't place too much on what I say here: this is a discussion forum, much of which is based on opinions and gut feeling, especially when the facts are obscured by things like bad year for a particular car, bad luck, reliability issues, and so on. Never let the facts get in the way of a good ribbing. :p :

Honda trully believed that Bunsen would bring them the WDC - now that would seem a very remote eventuality; it would take massive ill fortunes at Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, and BMW for that to happen. I certainly wouldn't even bet a bent penny on that ever happening.

I think that article in pitpass says it all.

What are you on about? :dozey: That post was referring to the fact Hazel had suggested she believed Button was hired over DAvidson for his PR skills, and that was the reason Davidson wasn't hired over Button. She then withdrew these claims, saying I'd maybe been mixed up, or confused. I simply quoted what she had said. At the end, I pointed out Honda don't spend £50m on a driver who has good PR skills, and certainly not on a driver who they don't think is World Championship material!

I'm not saying I agree with Honda. But I certainly don't think he was picked for his PR Skills over Davidson! And I also certainly don't think Honda will win the title with Button this year, or in the near future to be honest. And I haven't stated that I do either!

PS: I haven't seen the pitpass article - but they are one of the most unreliable, and biased website I've ever come across!!

[Valve Bounce]

PS: I haven't seen the pitpass article - but they are one of the most unreliable, and biased website I've ever come across!!


Maybe you should take a peek at the pitpass article. This time, it's not that far from hitting the nail on the head.

[Garry Walker]

You did insist that Sato is a better driver than ant, but I don't see you wanting to put your sig where your mouth is.

LOL. wow.


First of all, you an take it that I am a helluva lot older than you.

But my dad is bigger than yours !! lol




Raphael and VB - instead of betting on a sig, which imo is at the mental level of a 12 year old dog, bet on a topic instead. Loser has to make a topic "im an idiot and Raphael123/Valve Bounce owns my ass" :D :D :D

[raphael123]

Raphael and VB - instead of betting on a sig, which imo is at the mental level of a 12 year old dog, bet on a topic instead. Loser has to make a topic "im an idiot and Raphael123/Valve Bounce owns my ass" :D :D :D

My thoughts exactly Garry :up:

Saying that, posting a topic on an internet forum behind your PC screen saying 'I'm an indiot and thingy owns my arse' isn't much better, if maybe slightly worse :dozey:

[raphael123]

Well I read the article. And it was the usually tripe I expected. I would copy and paste it, but it doesn't allow you to.

As they say, in the last 3 races the team hasn't even looked capable of scoring any points - but as they said - 3 races!! If you based your career decisions on 3 races, you would looking for a new team every year! I think it's fair to say Button is staying put, mainly because he has no better option.

Then on one hand they critizise Button for a lack of ambition if it's true he's not looking for another seat, but at the same time, critizise the guy for a lack of loyalty. You can't have both - it's either one or the other! I think the fact is Button has learnt from his mistake, and for the time being is planning on sticking it out at Honda, however it's fair to say I think if next year he finds himself in a similar situation, if there is a better placed team offering him a drive, he will grab it. As things stand, there are no other better placed team which can offer him a seat, so he has to stick it out. No point making noises when it won't be returned with a result.

And then the discussion that your only as good as your last race. BS. Is Alonso suddenly not all that good? Or is Kimi, who has been outpaced by Massa for much of the season, suddenly not one of the quickest guys in F1 because he's had an average, and quite conservative first 3 races at Ferrari? BS.

After that the article moves away from Button, and directs its critizism at Fry, and unfortuantely, though I do like guy, I think what he has done since taking over David Richards has been poor, and he does need to be replaced. Who with? I don't know, but I think letting Geoff Willis, without having a decent replacement lined up was a major mistake. And I agree, though Honda have only recently taken over BAR, so there are major changes (personel and procedures) within the team (something that pitpass seem to completely ignore - stating it's the same people who were at BAR - how black and white!), results need to start improving drastically. Realistically, they should at least be aiming to be a regular podium finisher by now, and even more. Saying that, Toyota seem quite content being a midfield team.

[Valve Bounce]

So glad that you viewed someone else's perspective. It is good, in life, to sometimes understand how someone with a totally different view of anything expresses their view.

[raphael123]

So glad that you viewed someone else's perspective. It is good, in life, to sometimes understand how someone with a totally different view of anything expresses their view.

This...coming from you?

I viewed someone's else perspective, took it into consideration, and came to my own conclusion. You...viewed it...and couldn't see past the black print on the page.

Some things can be viewed by different people, and come to different conclusions, but other things, such as claims Davidson is better than Button, from footage of nearly 20yrs ago, can not be taken seriously.

This article was so biased, and so 'tabloid-ed' it was unreal. Tell me what exactly have I said which is so bad? Or do:

a) You agree you should judge a teams ability on 3 races, even if you won with them just 5 races ago?
b) You think it's fair to critizise a driver for lack of ambition by not trying to move teams, and then in the same article critizise his loyalty?
c) you really do think that drivers really are only as good as their last race? Therefore Hamilton is a better driver than Alonso? Kimi is better than Massa?

That is all I have argued against regarding Button. I think if you read what the article says, and analyse it a little, it's quite absurb. I just pointed out how stupid that article was.

[Valve Bounce]

This...coming from you?

I viewed someone's else perspective, took it into consideration, and came to my own conclusion. You...viewed it...and couldn't see past the black print on the page.

Some things can be viewed by different people, and come to different conclusions, but other things, such as claims Davidson is better than Button, from footage of nearly 20yrs ago, can not be taken seriously.

This article was so biased, and so 'tabloid-ed' it was unreal. Tell me what exactly have I said which is so bad? Or do:

a) You agree you should judge a teams ability on 3 races, even if you won with them just 5 races ago?
b) You think it's fair to critizise a driver for lack of ambition by not trying to move teams, and then in the same article critizise his loyalty?
c) you really do think that drivers really are only as good as their last race? Therefore Hamilton is a better driver than Alonso? Kimi is better than Massa?

That is all I have argued against regarding Button. I think if you read what the article says, and analyse it a little, it's quite absurb. I just pointed out how stupid that article was.

I just thought it was very interesting - made good reading. Had a good chuckle - didn't you?

[Garry Walker]

I would copy and paste it, but it doesn't allow you to.

Go to "edit" - "Select all " - Copy-Paste

[Valve Bounce]

I noticed that bunsen's test time is better than ant's time today. Maybe the Honda is improving. http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31298

[Roamy]

maybe button read all your negative **** and just stepped on the gas

[Valve Bounce]

maybe button read all your negative **** and just stepped on the gas

I think the thought of Lewis Hamilton arriving on the scene has deflated bunsens Sr and Jr. Now he only has to better Davidson to look less bad as third Pom on the circuit.

[pino]

maybe button read all your negative **** and just stepped on the gas

Or maybe at Honda are making some progress :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Or maybe at Honda are making some progress :p : Well, yeah!! they are in relation to Super Aguri :rolleyes:

[raphael123]

I just thought it was very interesting - made good reading. Had a good chuckle - didn't you?

Why don't you reply to my questions? :dozey:

Do you agree you should judge a teams ability on 3 races, even if you won with them just 5 races ago?

Do you think it's fair to critizise a driver for lack of ambition by not trying to move teams, and then in the same article critizise his loyalty?

Do you really do think that drivers really are only as good as their last race? Therefore Hamilton is a better driver than Alonso? Kimi is better than Massa?

I look forward to your answers :up:

[Valve Bounce]

Why don't you reply to my questions? :dozey:

Do you agree you should judge a teams ability on 3 races, even if you won with them just 5 races ago?

Do you think it's fair to critizise a driver for lack of ambition by not trying to move teams, and then in the same article critizise his loyalty?

Do you really do think that drivers really are only as good as their last race? Therefore Hamilton is a better driver than Alonso? Kimi is better than Massa?

I look forward to your answers :up:

Why me? :confused: you should be asking the guy who wrote the article, not me. I'm just an innocent bystander.

[raphael123]

Why me? :confused: you should be asking the guy who wrote the article, not me. I'm just an innocent bystander.

Because you were the one who told everyone about the article.

It's a simple thing, do you agree with what was said in that article or not?

[Valve Bounce]

Because you were the one who told everyone about the article.

It's a simple thing, do you agree with what was said in that article or not?

Let's get one thing straight. I don't answer to anyone here, as long as I do not attack other forum members or otherwise break forum rules.

If I think Jeffr Roshak is the best driver in F1, that is my opinion, and I don't have to explain to anyone here why. If I think Roshak is lousy, that then is my opinion.

I post a link to an article and that article is open for discussion. I don't [b]have[b] to answer to anyone about that link except to discuss its merits.

[Valve Bounce]

Sorry! I meant Jeffer Roshak. Captain Jeffer Roshak of Clan Jade Falcon, from MW4: Mercenaries. Only appeared in one mission. Only piloted a Loki. Only had a Vulture, Shadowcat, and another Loki for assistance. But the message he sent me continues to buzz around in my head like a wasp on steroids: "This is Star Captain Jeffer Roshak of the Jade Falcon Clan. I will crush your worthless forces beneath my talons, and make you all my bondsmen."

Actually, I thought he piloted a Thor :(

[Valve Bounce]

Does anyone here also think that Bunsen and Adam Campbell look a bit alike?

[raphael123]

Let's get one thing straight. I don't answer to anyone here, as long as I do not attack other forum members or otherwise break forum rules.

If I think Jeffr Roshak is the best driver in F1, that is my opinion, and I don't have to explain to anyone here why. If I think Roshak is lousy, that then is my opinion.

I post a link to an article and that article is open for discussion. I don't [b]have[b] to answer to anyone about that link except to discuss its merits.

Wow, well I've never met a person who post's as often as you do, who refuses to answer questions on a discussion board.

I tend to find the purpose of a forum is for people to discuss their views. If you say something, then fail to back it up, it doesn't say much for that person.

When you post an article, it's fair to assume you want a discussion on it?! I didn't think I was being unreasonable, in asking the poster of the article for their thoughts on it. I wasn't asking you to spend a lot of your time on it. Just for you to say whether you agreed with it or not.

I think all this betting stuff is petty, but your the one who was suggesting people who don't bet sigs are scared, and here you are, who seems too scared to say if you agree, because you know that deep down it's BS.

Just my opinion, but if you don't agree with it, just say you don't agree it. If you do, go ahead, and explain it to me. I'd love to hear someone justify the points they've made. As no one has, it suggests to me no one agree's with it.

[Valve Bounce]

Wow, well I've never met a person who post's as often as you do, who refuses to answer questions on a discussion board.



Just my opinion, but if you don't agree with it, just say you don't agree it. If you do, go ahead, and explain it to me. I'd love to hear someone justify the points they've made. As no one has, it suggests to me no one agree's with it.


As I said, this is a discussion board, unless you believe this is an interrogation room. As I said, I posted a link to see how other forum members might react - I don't have to answer to you.

[raphael123]

As I said, this is a discussion board, unless you believe this is an interrogation room. As I said, I posted a link to see how other forum members might react - I don't have to answer to you.

LOL!! I don't see how asking the instigator of a discussion, for their opinion on a discussion they instigated can be construed as me interrogating you!

As you said. You posted a link, because you wanted to discuss it. When asked for your opinion on it. You refuse to answer. That's your right, but it's a bit baffling as to why you'd post it, if you didn't want to discuss it. You've said you wanted to to view how other forumers would interpret it, yet aren't prepared to even tell us if you agree or disagree with it, let alone explain your opinion. Very baffling. :dozey:

Maybe you shouldn't be wasting your life in a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss...just an idea.

[pino]

Wow, well I've never met a person who post's as often as you do, who refuses to answer questions on a discussion board.

I tend to find the purpose of a forum is for people to discuss their views. If you say something, then fail to back it up, it doesn't say much for that person.

When you post an article, it's fair to assume you want a discussion on it?! I didn't think I was being unreasonable, in asking the poster of the article for their thoughts on it. I wasn't asking you to spend a lot of your time on it. Just for you to say whether you agreed with it or not.

I think all this betting stuff is petty, but your the one who was suggesting people who don't bet sigs are scared, and here you are, who seems too scared to say if you agree, because you know that deep down it's BS.

Just my opinion, but if you don't agree with it, just say you don't agree it. If you do, go ahead, and explain it to me. I'd love to hear someone justify the points they've made. As no one has, it suggests to me no one agree's with it.

Please quit personal attacks and stop trying to police the forums...I won't repeat this again !

[raphael123]

Am I allowed to ask where in that post was this 'personal attack'? :dozey:

[Garry Walker]

Am I allowed to ask where in that post was this 'personal attack'? :dozey:

Indeed, I failed to see anything even remotely resembling "personal attack"

[raphael123]

Indeed, I failed to see anything even remotely resembling "personal attack"

:up: cheers. I thought maybe it was just me.

I've been quoted twice for apparently 'personal attacks' - the other incident for pointing out to a forum member who had critizised a member calling names, then doing the exact same thing themselves. Even if nothing was said specifically to the original 'name callers'.

For me a personal attack is e.g. I just don't like you, and therefore enjoy winding you up. You could live in a £1m penthouse flat near Sloane Square for all I care, and I'd still think you were a loathsome ****-for-brains.

Not the type of stuff I'm coming out with :dozey:

I would appreciate Pino to tell us what exactly are the boundaries, as some people seem to get away with quite personal insults in comparison to others. And where my personal attack in that post was...well...it'd be nice to know what he thinks is a 'personal attack' :)

[aryan]

Wow, well I've never met a person who post's as often as you do, who refuses to answer questions on a discussion board.


You are taking this 'discussion board' thing too seriously; this is a fun forum. Valve gave us a link, and you have spent 2028 words trying to get him to 'admit'
something.

2028 words...

Well I have to say I envy the amount of free time you have on your hand.

[pino]

... And where my personal attack in that post was...well...it'd be nice to know what he thinks is a 'personal attack' :)

By "personal attack" I wasn't refering to a particular post but at your attitude towards Valve in this thread. He just posted a link and you started a war against him. Don't take this place too serious and try to enjoy it, like most members do !

[raphael123]

You are taking this 'discussion board' thing too seriously; this is a fun forum. Valve gave us a link, and you have spent 2028 words trying to get him to 'admit'
something.

2028 words...

Well I have to say I envy the amount of free time you have on your hand.


You actually counted my words? I envy the amount of free time you have on your hand :p :

lol, no seriously. I post here on weekdays when I'm at work, hence why you don't ever see posts after work hours, and on weekends, simply because I have better things to do I guess. However, if I got a choice out of doing work, or posting on here, during work hours, I'll pick this :D

I enjoy posting on here, though I don't see much point in posting silly posts here for 'fun'. Surely there are other fun things you can do in the real world, and not resort to having 'fun' on here lol. If I had friends who were as passionate about f1 as me, its unlikely I'd use this forum. Thats why I use the forum. To discuss F1, and also the odd random discussion in the Chit Chat section. I honestly don't think me asking the person who wanted a discussion on an article they posted, is that big a deal, and unreasonable on my part.

[raphael123]

By "personal attack" I wasn't refering to a particular post but at your attitude towards Valve in this thread. He just posted a link and you started a war against him. Don't take this place too serious and try to enjoy it, like most members do !

I don't think asking for someone's opinion on a discussion they wanted is me 'starting a war against him'. I think it's quite reasonable.

Let me put it in a scenerio for you.

Your having a discussion, and your friend says
'what do you think of...' which you answer
'well, i think....' and your friend replies
'So glad that you viewed someone else's perspective. It is good, in life, to sometimes understand how someone with a totally different view of anything expresses their view'. A bit uncalled for, very sarcastic reply! So you reply
'Oh ok, well what do you think then? in response, thinking if he's critizising me for not accepting another persons point of view, i'll ask what his take on the matter is.
'No, I'm not telling you what I think'

If Valve was prepared to attack my opinion (which he asked for) on an article he posted, he should be man enough (not that it takes much of man to be anything on here!) to post his feeling on the matter, rather than attack someone's else's opinion, without backing it up when challenged, let alone make an opinion on the article himself which he seems unable to.

Anyway, I suppose I'll leave it at that. By the way, is aryan latest post a personal attack on me? Afterall, it's directed at me, it's not exactly positive, and has absolutely no relevance to the future of Jenson Button. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all uncomfortable with his post, I think he should be allowed to say it. But I'm confused as to what exactly the boundaries are. So is his post acceptable?

Cheers for the clarification :)

[PSfan]

By "personal attack" I wasn't refering to a particular post but at your attitude towards Valve in this thread. He just posted a link and you started a war against him. Don't take this place too serious and try to enjoy it, like most members do !

But its Valve we're talking about... you remember Valve Bouce, the guy who calls people he doesn't like (like myself) genital craniums and announces to the world every so often that we "GC's" are on is ignore list???

You wanna talk personal attack, where was the warning when valve suggested that his fellow members follow his lead and put the members he doesn't like on their ignore lists as well? (That I believe happened in the Ant thread if you care to look it up)


As far as attitude in this thread:


First of all, you an take it that I am a helluva lot older than you. I remember thte sound of the Japanese bombs falling on us when I was a child.

Secondly, in Australia, theres a saying: put up or shut up. If you can't put up, then shut up.

Betting on our sigs is a tradition in this forum, and if you don't like it, that's your issue, not mine.

Basically, I find it that you are scared to show any admission that you have been wrong, that's what it looks like to me.

That post showed alot more neg. attitude then any I had read from Rapheal... once again, no warnings there either...



I think that article in pitpass says it all.



Maybe you should take a peek at the pitpass article. This time, it's not that far from hitting the nail on the head.

If Valve has this kind of attituted towards this particular article, I see no reason why he can't expand on this, And I didn't find that Rapheal hounded Valve nearly as much as when Valve was hounding him earlier to bet sigs!

By the way... to keep my post somewhat on topic... I found that pitpass article smelled a bit like the "Davidson to replace Barrichello" stories from last year, and the " Ant to replace JV at Sauber the year before... Some stuff is just catered only to the british F1 fans that there doesn't need to be much truth or substance to it at all...

Valve just likes it because it suggest the chance that Davidson might be able to look better then Button some day...

[pino]

PSfan, your reply doesn't surprises me, knowing how much you "like" Valve, however this childish off-topic stops here. Let's go back to Button and his future or this thread will be closed !

[raphael123]

I suppose the topic may as well be closed now anyway :( I don't think anyone is that fussed anymore. It was mainly Valve and me anyway, and he's gone missing lol. I sometimes feel moderators (I'm not saying this as personal attack, just a general opinion) step in to 'calm' things down so to speak a bit too soon, such as in this topic.

PSFan, even if he is not a fan of Valve, the points he made are spot on. I don't want to sound like I'm whinging even if I am, but I've been warned about being too personal on numerous occasions, even though I am a relatively new forum member (in terms of when I started posting regularly), and have had a number of posts deleted because it isn't in line with what the topic was about, yet I see people be much more personal, and I see posts which have no relevance to the topic in almost every thread, and nothing is said. It can sometimes be confusing in trying to find out what the boundaries actually are when each person seems to have a different set of rules, or more lee-way! It makes me wonder if double standards exist on this forum (whether its intentially or not). As PSFan said, Valve insisting on betting sigs I think was much more aggressive, and much less called for, than me asking him to state an opinion on a matter which he critizised my opinion on. And I don't believe I have ever used personal insults such as Valve's supposedly genital craniums.

Once again, sorry Pino, I know this isn't about Button (like a lot of posts aren't), but I do hope these messages are taken on board, and not treated as a 'breach of forum rules'. At the moment, forumers are making points, and instead of seemingly being listened to, the response we're getting is 'behave or else!', as if you don't care what forumers think, and just trying to make them abide by what one individual thinks is right. I think listening to the forumers is a good thing personally :)

[pino]

raphael123, nothing personal against you but I cannot be here 24 hours per day and read all posts, considering that I am in charge of other forums as well, and I do have a life. I do try my best to keep this place clean and enjoyable for the many F1 fans who comes here to talk F1, and have some fun, and I don't have time for personal and childish figths...sorry !

Back to Button now please :)

[raphael123]

I understand that Pino. Well, as long as the moderators are listening (if you are lol!), that's cool: :up:

[PSfan]

PSfan, your reply doesn't surprises me, knowing how much you "like" Valve, however this childish off-topic stops here. Let's go back to Button and his future or this thread will be closed !

I was going to respond to this in PM, put it all comes down to credability as I'll explain later. So at the risk of having this thread (that’s was on the verge of falling off the 1st page anyways) locked I will respond here

First Pino, you had Given Raphael a VERY stern warning about personal insults towards Valve (By the way, like Gerry, I found it very hard to find anything coming close to that in his posts, but you explained that later anyways so whatever... My reminding you about Valve suggesting that his friends should also but some members other members on here on their ignore lists, I was pointing out a much harsher form of personal attack that almost anything else I can think of. (You can call people names on here, threaten violence to someone who lives in some 3 or 4 time zones away... but when you suggest making it impossible for others to read your posts/opinions, now that could be a damaging "personal attack!!!" )

of course no warning

You also suggested that the warning was more in relation to the tone of his posts towards Valve... Which is why I brought the betting topic because earlier in this thread, Valve was hounding him much harder then He was concerning that Pit-Pass story... And like Raphael, I believe that if Valve thinks that the story "isn't far from hitting the nail on the head" questioning why he thinks that way isn't being unreasonable.

Now we come to the heart of this post. By suggesting that my previous post was spurred by my feelings towards Valve, that is almost an attack on my credibility. If the subjects of this where any other members, provided the evidence was the same, I would still make that same post! And I don't believe its Childish, this is about fair play, and how this forum I regard as one of the best is run! If my last post could be construed as an attack on a member, my target was not Valve!!!

Moderating a forum isn't like refereeing a hockey game, the excuse "I didn't see the first slash" after a retaliatory slash doesn't work here, All I'm asking for is if a Mod intends to make a strong warning like "Please quit personal attacks and stop trying to police the forums...I won't repeat this again ! that they take the 3-5 mins to scan threw the thread to see the tone of it before using such strong words!!!

I've long accepted that Valve going way off topic, and fousto's use of colorful words have been for the most part tolerated because of their long standing on the forum, but I would hate for newer members to be punished for posting in kind in response to them... I am hoping for a certain level of fairness on here.

And as for my feelings towards Valve, well if truth be know, I really like the guy :p : I can totally see where he's coming from... his admiration/obsession might be very similar to the rock band my nick was born... of course The lead singer is much prettier then Anthony, but to each their own :p : (By the way their 2nd album is about to be released may 19th :p : ) I can Also see where he is coming from when he puts down drivers like Button and Sato (Both had the Honda seat that Ant should have had...) and Sutil... As for the fun I have at his expense in my posts... That’s just my way of pointing out the folly of putting members on an ignore list to begin with, and by going over the top regarding Valve, it makes it less likely Valve will read my post and be able to come up with a counter point to whatever argument I have, which makes it almost a win-win for me... :cheese: If Valve ever decided to visit the polar bears in my neighborhood, I would certainly invite the guy out for Tim Hortons or a Molson Canadian and we could have a chuckle about this (But please don't quote me on this, I hope to maintain the status quo... )


Of course, if you feel I have taken this to far and feel a need to close this thread based on this post, I'm sure another Button Thread will pop up soon enough...

However, to stay a little on topic, after what Honda has invested in Button, I'm sure he has a seat there for the foreseeable future... :p :

now back to our regularly scheduled programing...

[Valve Bounce]

And here is another view on Jenson's plight.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39281
Just thought we'd see something from the other side of the coin.
Interesting that Eddie says that Jenson's manager should have something to say about the guy's plight. I thought Jenson was locked in to Honda, shyte or bust.
I must say that Team Honda this year is just like their colours: chunda.

[Flat.tyres]

eddie looking for a job again. if it happens, whats the chances of him hiring kimi? eddie, kimi and button should make for some wild partys

[pole_sitter]

Jenson Button and Honda is no longer the same team as it was last season. It's unfortunate that the team will not be able to compete with teams like Ferrari, McLaren, and surprisingly Williams. Button needs toreconsider his options if he wants to be world champion but this season is not his year.


______________
Violeta
Ford Cars & Trucks Catalogs (http://www.who-sells-it.com/c/automotive-ford-364.html)

[futuretiger9]

It is very galling to note how many seasons Button has had to write off as "development" or "interim" years. His patience with Honda must now be wafer-thin, and the meteoric rise of one Lewis Hamilton must have focussed his mind.

[GRAVETT]

well my view on buttons future is ........ i just don't know !! you can never tell with this guy. All i know is that this year we havent sold one piece of button merchandise or memorablia... nothing at all even when we reduce the prices ! thats never happened since hes been in f1 !!
i feel he has had a lot of fair weather supporters, i just hope that he doesnt have fair weather supporters in f1 or he maybe leaving f1 sooner than anyone had thought

[raphael123]

One of Buttons critizism is for his lack of loyalty, and now everyone, after 4 races, is saying 'ooo Button's gotta get out of honda asap'.

I think, apart from Ferrari and McLaren, and maybe BMW, the next best team to be in is Honda. I actually agree with Eddie Jordan, what they need is a right leader. I like Nick Fry - but he's not the man for the job. Dave Richards showed that under a good leader, the team have all the resources, including the driver, to compete at the top. Letting Richards leave, or not persuading him to stay, what the reason for his departure was - was a big mistake! A very big one. I think if he was still around they would be challenging the big teams for sure!

[Valve Bounce]

well my view on buttons future is ........ i just don't know !! you can never tell with this guy. All i know is that this year we havent sold one piece of button merchandise or memorablia... nothing at all even when we reduce the prices ! thats never happened since hes been in f1 !!
i feel he has had a lot of fair weather supporters, i just hope that he doesnt have fair weather supporters in f1 or he maybe leaving f1 sooner than anyone had thought


I think this says it all for Honda actually. There cars look like somebody threw up on them, they perform worse than they look, and anyone who wants to support a Brit will jump on the Lewis Hamilton wagon.

Right now, Bunsen can't even beat the guys racing last year's car run by a shoestring team and driven by: Sato who was fired from Honda for underprforming, and ant who was their test driver.


To be perfectly honest, anyone who wants to support Honda would be better off buying a Sato or ant cap.

That doesn't mean that it's bunsen's fault, but who on earth would want to spend all that money on clothes to look like a loser? when they can dress like a Lewis Hamilton supporter?

[leopard]

One of Buttons critizism is for his lack of loyalty, and now everyone, after 4 races, is saying 'ooo Button's gotta get out of honda asap'.


I can't get this, usually loyalties are measured for wanting stay at a place (team in this case) for long periods. How could he has lack of loyalty to the team he has been driving for 4 races? :confused:

[Valve Bounce]

I can't get this, usually loyalties are measured for wanting stay at a place (team in this case) for long periods. How could he has lack of loyalty to the team he has been driving for 4 races? :confused:

You obviously need a lesson in recent F1 histrionocs of the bunsen kind.

[leopard]

What kind histrionic :confused:
That's the common rule

[Valve Bounce]

He wanted to leave Honda for Willaims, then when he could go to Williams, he decided to renege on his contract.

Where have you been ? :eek;

[leopard]

Where have you been ? :eek;
sleeping :D

[leopard]

He wanted to leave Honda for Willaims, then when he could go to Williams, he decided to renege on his contract.


I take this for granted, thanks

[raphael123]

I can't get this, usually loyalties are measured for wanting stay at a place (team in this case) for long periods. How could he has lack of loyalty to the team he has been driving for 4 races? :confused:

lol, Valve has hit the nail on the head :up:

[Valve Bounce]

OK, the last word above may be mispelt, but I think you all get the drift.

It was Frank Williams who gave Jenson his start after he held a series of tests pitting Jenson aganst this hot shot from Champ Cars.

Frank saw that Jenson had a very smooth tidy driving style which promised to be very fast.

However, Frank had to employ two hot shots of his own in Ralfie and JPM, so he allowed Jenson to drive for Benneton where the car had a peculiar engine which kept vibrating itself to bits. (Are you following me so far? )

But Frank told Jenson to soldier on and not to lose heart. Then along came Richards who wanted Jenson to race for Team Honda for a couple of years and Frank said OK as he had an option for Jenson after those years.

After one year at Honda, Jenson wanted to jump ship to Williams where he felt he had more chances of winning, but Honda had a contract which stopped Jenson from going overboard.

Then when it was time to disembark from SS Honda for HMS Williams, Jenson realised that Frank had suddenly lost his BMW motor, and was no longer a semi factory team, so Jenson refused to get off SS Honda. After going to court and agreeing to pay Frank a substantial sum (which remained anon) and which SS Honda agreed to fund via an increase in salary to Jenson for a number of years (reputed to be 5), Jenson then remained on board SS Honda which then suddenly took on water this year and began to sink, while HMS Williams is steaming full steam ahead.

So now, Jenson is in a quandry, because these two yoyos who are racing in a tiny Japanese team called Super Aguri (One of which was actually fired by Honda for underperforming and the other was an ex Honda test driver) are leaving poor Jenson behind in their wake.

You could call it bad luck, being in the wrong place at the right time, or just poor management by his management team. Your choce. That's the Bunsen saga in a nutshell.

[leopard]

What sum Frank offered to Jenson for getting off the Honda for Williams, If that increasing of the Honda was bigger than the sum Williams offered I think Jenson did the right decision at that time, regardless the fact that BMW worked Williams off.

Relating to poor performance of Honda, compared to Williams or their satellite team of Aguri, this year is more seen as the risk or consequence of decision he has made to stay driving the Honda, because we will never know exactly how bad the dark side of the bright. Many said that Alonso took the wrong decision about moving to McLaren when Renault was at the top of performance, while no guaranty how bad or how good this year's Renault and McLaren were going to be last year.

I think it's more about bargaining power of the trade for the driver, slightly different with loyalties, his willing to stay driving Honda in such long periods is something telling us about his loyalties, those who didn't know that chronology i think will see this as me IMO :)

[Valve Bounce]

What sum Frank offered to Jenson for getting off the Honda for Williams, If that increasing of the Honda was bigger than the sum Williams offered I think Jenson did the right decision at that time, regardless the fact that BMW worked Williams off.

Relating to poor performance of Honda, compared to Williams or their satellite team of Aguri, this year is more seen as the risk or consequence of decision he has made to stay driving the Honda, because we will never know exactly how bad the dark side of the bright.

I think it's more about bargaining power of the trade for the driver, slightly different with loyalties, his willing to stay driving Honda in such long periods is something telling us about his loyalties, those who didn't know that chronology i think will see this as me IMO :)


You got that wrong, mate. Bunsen tried to jump ship from Honda to drive for Williams a couple of years ago but Honda had another year on his contract and wouldn't let him.

I think you are way behind in the Jenson Button jumpship saga. :rolleyes:

[leopard]

You got that wrong, mate. Bunsen tried to jump ship from Honda to drive for Williams a couple of years ago but Honda had another year on his contract and wouldn't let him.
Breaking contract while it's running isn't allowed, I'd agree if so.



I think you are way behind in the Jenson Button jumpship saga. :rolleyes:
It will deserve more praise you show something like source etc, but in all, I believe people in this forum. :)

[Valve Bounce]

.........read on: http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2142134,00.html

Mr Leopard. I really can't go into more detail of bunsen's contractual sagas often referred to as Buttongates 1 & 2. This has been discussed and laughed at in detail in this forum already. Sorry, but my post above is about the best summing up you'll get this year mate.

[raphael123]

Valve has once again hit the nail on the head :up:

He knows how it really happened :D

[leopard]

It has string :D
Thanks for your effort

[leopard]

Valve has once again hit the nail on the head :up:

He knows how it really happened :D
Safe affirmation :D

[Daika]

Kinda sad for Jenson... no luck at all. But he breach his williams contract so he won't get much sympathy.

[Valve Bounce]

Well.................maybe Toyota if Ralfie gets tired and quits.

[pole_sitter]

Jenson Button and Honda is no longer the same team as it was last season. It's unfortunate that the team will not be able to compete with teams like Ferrari, McLaren, and surprisingly Williams. Button needs toreconsider his options if he wants to be world champion but this season is not his year.

________________________
Abigail

Volkswagen Polo GTI Catalogue by Volkswagen Australia (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/volkswagen-australia-2012/volkswagen-polo-gti-catalogue-8707.html)

[Valve Bounce]

Jenson Button and Honda is no longer the same team as it was last season. It's unfortunate that the team will not be able to compete with teams like Ferrari, McLaren, and surprisingly Williams. Button needs toreconsider his options if he wants to be world champion but this season is not his year.

________________________
Abigail



Unless bunsen has a very strong Car performance clause in his multi year contract, I suspect he is tied to Honda. I don't see Honda letting him go, and I cannot see which top team has a place for him. Basically he is between a rock and a hard place.

[trumperZ06]

Unless bunsen has a very strong Car performance clause in his multi year contract, I suspect he is tied to Honda. I don't see Honda letting him go, and I cannot see which top team has a place for him. Basically he is between a rock and a hard place.

:dozey: Not much sympathy here. Ole Jensen's made his bed... now he has to sleep in it !!!

:( I do worry about Honda though... this is a company with a great racing history and they just seem to be wandering in the desert.

[ArrowsFA1]

"I have seen loads of speculation about me - it's great," Button was quoted as saying by the Press Association. "So many people get funny with you when you decide you would like to change teams, and they say you should stick with your own team. Then a year later the same people come out say 'oh, you've got to move, go somewhere else'. I'm completely confused by it all, although it makes me smile. But I'm not going anywhere. I'm staying here."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59139

[raphael123]

Oh well, Button beat Davidson, and Sato, quite easily. Maybe I should've bet haha :laugh:

[F1boat]

In the end of the year Button WILL beat Davidson and Sato.

[Ian McC]

In the end of the year Button WILL beat Davidson and Sato.


Not really much of an achievement for a big team like Honda I'm afraid.

[Valve Bounce]

.............beating a second hand Honda. :p :

[Caroline]

:dozey: Not much sympathy here. Ole Jensen's made his bed... now he has to sleep in it !!!

:( I do worry about Honda though... this is a company with a great racing history and they just seem to be wandering in the desert.

Honda will turn things around I feel. They do have the drive (no pun intended and the money to do so). But possibly Jenson Button may be done with the team. Just not been lucky enough to get that winning car..

Button to Toyota? I think Sato may have a better chance.

[F1boat]

Not really much of an achievement for a big team like Honda I'm afraid.

Unfortunately, not. But Jenson isn't as bad as some people claim him to be.

[jens]

I have also rated Button quite highly, but he is losing his reputation not due to Honda's weakness, but Barrichello's speed. The Brazilian has outqualified the Englishman again. What attitude should we take? Probably Barrichello has been underrated - "Rubens should retire now" is still written in Valve's signature. :p :

[ShiftingGears]

The event that I remember Jenson for so far this season is crashing into Barrichello exiting the pits at Barcelona. I can't say thats a good way of trying to escape the invisible man syndrome of driving for an underperforming manufacturer team.