Another example of our country going down the toilet!

[Spafranco]

A Tennessee tea party Republican congressman told a frightened little girl at a town hall meeting on Thursday in Murfreesboro, TN that laws are laws and that her undocumented father is going to have to be deported. According to ProgressivePopulist.org (http://progressivepopulist.org/2013/08/17/tennessee-republican-rejects-trembling-little-girls-request-for-help-at-town-hall-meeting-video/), 11-year-old Josie Molina told Rep. Scott Desjarlais (R) that she has papers but her father does not.

The tea party crowd whooped and applauded wildly as the little girl took her seat, head down. Progressive Populist reported that Josie Molina’s father is currently in the process of being deported and that the girl is seeing a child psychologist in order to cope with the stress and anxiety.

Here we have the Tea Party(hate group) once more showing their real family values.

It may ne a good thing to have the undocumented deported just to show these idiots how much they are saving through the efforts of the undocumented workers, those specifically from Mexico and Central America. That would include, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and others. Just so you do not have to Google them.

But it all makes sense to me now when I thing of the Iran Contra affair and the criminal North on Fox along with Libby and probably Kerik (sic) in the near future.

Family values...I ask you.

[Rudy Tamasz]

And your point is?

[555-04Q2]

I think he means the country is going down the toilet :p :

[Spafranco]

And your point is?

Are you being sarcastic? Do you need for me to point out the obvious?

[Rudy Tamasz]

Are you being sarcastic? Do you need for me to point out the obvious?

I'm being the boring, joy-killing bureaucratic type I've been taught to be. My company lives and dies by putting together documents om all kinds of issues. Unless the drafter states his point explicitly upfront and argues it convincingly, the document is not going far.

In this case I don't see the purpose of you post, above all. What is it? Just an expression of emotion? A statement of problem? A concept of a solution? Let me know what it is and I'll try to figure it out what you actually want to emphasize: republicans' hypocrisy on family values, irrelevance of laws, economic benefits of migration, poor little girl's need for help etc.

[gadjo_dilo]

I'm being the boring, joy-killing bureaucratic type I've been taught to be. My company lives and dies by putting together documents om all kinds of issues. Unless the drafter states his point explicitly upfront and argues it convincingly, the document is not going far.


You're lucky. We have to offer solutions to every idiot who has nothing better to do than asking the point of view of our institution.

[Spafranco]

I'm being the boring, joy-killing bureaucratic type I've been taught to be. My company lives and dies by putting together documents om all kinds of issues. Unless the drafter states his point explicitly upfront and argues it convincingly, the document is not going far.

In this case I don't see the purpose of you post, above all. What is it? Just an expression of emotion? A statement of problem? A concept of a solution? Let me know what it is and I'll try to figure it out what you actually want to emphasize: republicans' hypocrisy on family values, irrelevance of laws, economic benefits of migration, poor little girl's need for help etc.

I apologize wholeheartedly to the people of Belarus who must have a difficult time understanding what is blatantly obvious in a post. With that said I will make an exception since the first language is not English and is probably difficult for a non-native to understand. There of course is another possibility.

[Spafranco]

I think he means the country is going down the toilet :p :

Isn't that the epitome of great wit and intelligence. Boy, he even got a "like" Must be wonderful in South Africa and Belarus. Then of course the deportation or the inhumane treatment of others is not anathema to either country. Apartheid in SA and the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) volunteers who massacred their own people in German uniform, and may I remind you it was more Einsatzgruppen made up form the dregs of the SS of Himmler and Heydrich.

So, I can see that the deportation of a father could in fact be humorous to some. Do I err in this?

[Koz]

Thank you for brining in the SS and Uncle Himmler. Without them you could never have possibly hoped to make any sense whatsoever.

http://images.wikia.com/totalminer/images/a/a0/Duck-Sauce-Charlie-Sheen-Spinstyles-Bi-Winning-Edit.jpg


Isn't that the epitome of great wit and intelligence.

Yes, yes it most certainly is.

[gadjo_dilo]

Must be wonderful in South Africa and Belarus.

At least these two countries aren't going down the toilet....

[Rudy Tamasz]

Isn't that the epitome of great wit and intelligence. Boy, he even got a "like" Must be wonderful in South Africa and Belarus. Then of course the deportation or the inhumane treatment of others is not anathema to either country. Apartheid in SA and the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) volunteers who massacred their own people in German uniform, and may I remind you it was more Einsatzgruppen made up form the dregs of the SS of Himmler and Heydrich.

So, I can see that the deportation of a father could in fact be humorous to some. Do I err in this?

Thankee Sir. Now I know how to respond to the guy in the head office who wouldn't clear my draft because he thinks I'm not being clear and articulate enough.

[gadjo_dilo]

....and the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) volunteers who massacred their own people in German uniform, and may I remind you it was more Einsatzgruppen made up form the dregs of the SS of Himmler and Heydrich.
....

:confused:
That's bad but not worse than a civil war. :p

[555-04Q2]

Isn't that the epitome of great wit and intelligence. Boy, he even got a "like" Must be wonderful in South Africa and Belarus. Then of course the deportation or the inhumane treatment of others is not anathema to either country. Apartheid in SA and the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarussian) volunteers who massacred their own people in German uniform, and may I remind you it was more Einsatzgruppen made up form the dregs of the SS of Himmler and Heydrich.

So, I can see that the deportation of a father could in fact be humorous to some. Do I err in this?

You.............................need.............. .................help! Call 0800 NUTHOUSE for free assistance.

And yes, South Africa is a wonderful place to live in. Come visit sometime, I will introduce you to real beer, a proper braai (barbeque for the yanks), good friendly people, fantastic weather and the hottest chicks on the planet bar none.

[gadjo_dilo]

You.............................need.............. .................help! Call 0800 NUTHOUSE for free assistance.

And yes, South Africa is a wonderful place to live in. Come visit sometime, I will introduce you to real beer, a proper braai (barbeque for the yanks), good friendly people, fantastic weather and the hottest chicks on the planet bar none.

:confused: You say he's mad, still you want to go out with him.....

[555-04Q2]

:confused: You say he's mad, still you want to go out with him.....

Takes a nutter to know a nutter :p : ;)

[Rudy Tamasz]

:confused: You say he's mad, still you want to go out with him.....

If you ever make it to my country, I'll go out with you. How does that sound?

[gadjo_dilo]

If you ever make it to my country, I'll go out with you. How does that sound?

I don't know. I'm afraid English language has too many subtleties for me....
I suppose that "If you ever make it to my country" has the sense of what we understand by " the blind man was able to find his way to Braila"

[555-04Q2]

If you ever make it to my country, I'll go out with you. How does that sound?

Sounds like the makings of a dodgy love story...let's make a movie about it :p :

[gadjo_dilo]

Sounds like the makings of a dodgy love story...let's make a movie about it :p :

Who'll play the parts of spafranco and 555-04Q2? :devil:

[Rudy Tamasz]

Dodgy love story meets "Lost In Translation"...

[Jag_Warrior]

The TEA Party was supposed to be a loose affiliation of political parties for people who cared about fiscal issues (TEA = Taxed Enough Already). What it's turned into is an increasingly centralized confederacy of neocons, religious zealots, xenophobes and just all-around backward, poorly educated extremists, who mainly focus on social issues now (abortion, immigration, school prayer, gun control, etc.). It's just a radicalized, far-right wing of the GOP now - and they've been known to compare themselves to the Taliban... so what does that tell you? :eek:

Focusing on fiscal issues requires one to have a basic understanding of government, economics, business and at least be able to add & subtract. But judging by some of the people that they support, their ability to add & subtract seems to stop at 10 (maybe 20 if they take their shoes off). They're angry, scared people. And they obviously possess no ability to (effectively) govern.

There is an old saying, which I believe they should adopt as their slogan:

When in danger, when in doubt... run in circles, scream and shout!

[Spafranco]

Peculiar that the posts I have read with an abundance of sadness at the lack of understanding what the thread is referring to. The only person that understands the point is Jag Warrior. The others, rather than address the poignant issue ridiculed and made fun of the post or the me.
Don't concern yourself by responding to me by stating that I am upset by this or a victim. The fact is that I see all of you from the Rudy character, the Gadj(sic) and the all the other glad-handlers I see on the first page.
To Koz in particular, the reason the Einsatsgruppen was brought up should have been very clear. Rarely do I ever make a statement about the Nazi regime as so many posts referring to same are from those that are uneducated on German history. I do not say that as a know-it-all, I say it as a fact.
How many times has the mere statement of fact that the Nazi's were right wing opposed by members of this very forum. What is the point in arguing with people who advance ludicrous opinions whilst so ill informed.
The reason I bring up the Einsatzgruppen and Himmler along with Heydrich is that they were very much influential in Belarus indirectly having the citizens of Belarus to form their own death squads to murder their own citizens.
Why resort to that? It is simple because of the content of the Tea Party comments that are at the start of this thread. The slippery slope has begun.

[Spafranco]

One last thing. Has any of the moderators issued warnings to the posters who unable to debate have resorted to ridicule? Just curious.

[Starter]

The TEA Party was supposed to be a loose affiliation of political parties for people who cared about fiscal issues (TEA = Taxed Enough Already). What it's turned into is an increasingly centralized confederacy of neocons, religious zealots, xenophobes and just all-around backward, poorly educated extremists, who mainly focus on social issues now (abortion, immigration, school prayer, gun control, etc.). It's just a radicalized, far-right wing of the GOP now - and they've been known to compare themselves to the Taliban... so what does that tell you? :eek:

Focusing on fiscal issues requires one to have a basic understanding of government, economics, business and at least be able to add & subtract. But judging by some of the people that they support, their ability to add & subtract seems to stop at 10 (maybe 20 if they take their shoes off). They're angry, scared people. And they obviously possess no ability to (effectively) govern.

There is an old saying, which I believe they should adopt as their slogan:

When in danger, when in doubt... run in circles, scream and shout!
Jag, your take on the Tea Party is right on. I was an early supporter of it when the focus was on excessive spending and taxation. Since then its been taken over by the lunatic fringe, who have gone far afield from the original purpose, and I'm embarrassed by my early association. The problem with the far right is the same as the far left. They both go around and meet somewhere out behind the barn, with refusal to listen to anyone else or to compromise - all to the detriment of the country.

[Jag_Warrior]

IMO, it could have been like another United We Stand (which is the only political party I have ever been a member of). About 3 years ago, I sat down with a fellow I was buying some buffalo meat from (funny story for later) and he was a TEA Party member. He tried to get me involved. He was quite sharp and not a wingnut at all. He was an honest to goodness economic libertarian/fiscal conservative. And while I didn't agree with all of his positions, he was learned enough in economics that I felt we had a good, productive chat. I enjoyed it and we still converse from time to time. What's interesting though is that his enthusiasm has also waned. He realizes, as you do, that what it was supposed to be and what it is now are two entirely different things.

I know there are still a bunch of TEA party groups floating around, and they don't all follow the same party line. But even he admits that the main thrust has been taken over by people who don't know much, if anything, about fiscal matters, business or economics. For them, it's just another way to push their far right social agenda. That is unfortunate. My hope is that this move toward extreme bifurcation in American politics will bring about a strong(er) independent or 3rd party movement. Those of us who aren't pegged to the left or the right, and who don't suck up party propaganda like it's some sort of religion, should have better choices. IMO, that would better serve the republic.

[Bagwan]

A Tennessee tea party Republican congressman told a frightened little girl at a town hall meeting on Thursday in Murfreesboro, TN that laws are laws and that her undocumented father is going to have to be deported. According to ProgressivePopulist.org (http://progressivepopulist.org/2013/08/17/tennessee-republican-rejects-trembling-little-girls-request-for-help-at-town-hall-meeting-video/), 11-year-old Josie Molina told Rep. Scott Desjarlais (R) that she has papers but her father does not.

The tea party crowd whooped and applauded wildly as the little girl took her seat, head down. Progressive Populist reported that Josie Molina’s father is currently in the process of being deported and that the girl is seeing a child psychologist in order to cope with the stress and anxiety.

Here we have the Tea Party(hate group) once more showing their real family values.

It may ne a good thing to have the undocumented deported just to show these idiots how much they are saving through the efforts of the undocumented workers, those specifically from Mexico and Central America. That would include, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and others. Just so you do not have to Google them.

But it all makes sense to me now when I thing of the Iran Contra affair and the criminal North on Fox along with Libby and probably Kerik (sic) in the near future.

Family values...I ask you.

I would suggest to you that the article is just a touch biased against this Tennessee Tea Party Republican congressman .
Let's not forget that "undocumented" essentially means "illegal alien" , doesn't it ?
And , let's not forget that she has papers , so the opportunity likely existed for her father to do the same .

It's characterized in the quote you made as having them all happy that the little girl was sad , under stress and anxiety , and in the care of a child psychologist .
I would suggest that it is unlikely , no matter how evil these people appear to you , that they were clapping due to her sorrow .

What seems far more likely to me , is that they were clapping to express approval at the "no exceptions" aspect of the law in this case .
Sending him home is cruel for the child , but shows no bias towards those who are caught trying to circumvent the law .

There is likely nothing to stop her joining her father in his own country while he takes his place in line with all his fellow countrymen who are awaiting entry through legal means .

It's an easy situation to use to pick on them , as there's a teary-eyed youngster with which to pull heart strings , but how many legal entry applications with the same scenario are there going across desks at immigration every day ?
I would think there are many .


I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there is likely another side to this than what is put forward in the article .

[gadjo_dilo]

Now wait a minute.....
Spa(sic!) dear I don't think I made fun of you or your posts.
1. I didn't make any comment on that case of deportation. For the simple reason that it didn't impress me cos as a citizen of a former communist country I know much more dramatic cases that implied mass deportations.
2. You yourself with your little hand wrote that your country is going down the toilet. If you draw the conclusion because of the ''incriminate'' case then it's definitely an exaggeration.
3. You have the right to disagree with Rudy or 555etc but it's rude to refer to their countries like that. Not to mention that none of us could choose the place where we were born and none of us is responsible for what happened in the past or for the wrong decisions of our current leaders. From this point of view neither your country is a perfect example.

[Spafranco]

Now wait a minute.....
Spa(sic!) dear I don't think I made fun of you or your posts.
1. I didn't make any comment on that case of deportation. For the simple reason that it didn't impress me cos as a citizen of a former communist country I know much more dramatic cases that implied mass deportations.
2. You yourself with your little hand wrote that your country is going down the toilet. If you draw the conclusion because of the ''incriminate'' case then it's definitely an exaggeration.
3. You have the right to disagree with Rudy or 555etc but it's rude to refer to their countries like that. Not to mention that none of us could choose the place where we were born and none of us is responsible for what happened in the past or for the wrong decisions of our current leaders. From this point of view neither your country is a perfect example.

Don't suddenly become to ingratiate yourself with the moderators by your denials.

If you do not understand something then don't respond.

[Spafranco]

I would suggest to you that the article is just a touch biased against this Tennessee Tea Party Republican congressman .
Let's not forget that "undocumented" essentially means "illegal alien" , doesn't it ?
And , let's not forget that she has papers , so the opportunity likely existed for her father to do the same .

It's characterized in the quote you made as having them all happy that the little girl was sad , under stress and anxiety , and in the care of a child psychologist .
I would suggest that it is unlikely , no matter how evil these people appear to you , that they were clapping due to her sorrow .

What seems far more likely to me , is that they were clapping to express approval at the "no exceptions" aspect of the law in this case .
Sending him home is cruel for the child , but shows no bias towards those who are caught trying to circumvent the law .

There is likely nothing to stop her joining her father in his own country while he takes his place in line with all his fellow countrymen who are awaiting entry through legal means .

It's an easy situation to use to pick on them , as there's a teary-eyed youngster with which to pull heart strings , but how many legal entry applications with the same scenario are there going across desks at immigration every day ?
I would think there are many .


I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there is likely another side to this than what is put forward in the article .

The "quote I made"?

Your comment about the clapping and your reason for it makes me sick. I don't have to explain why. It is obvious.

[Spafranco]

You.............................need.............. .................help! Call 0800 NUTHOUSE for free assistance.

And yes, South Africa is a wonderful place to live in. Come visit sometime, I will introduce you to real beer, a proper braai (barbeque for the yanks), good friendly people, fantastic weather and the hottest chicks on the planet bar none.

You must have this very insecure mendacious attitude to first deride me then without even thinking (sic) that you are living in some type of nirvana. Alas for you, you live in one of the worlds most violent countries with one of the lowest life expectancy rates as well as the child/infant mortality near the bottom of countries examined.
Keep it.
As for your direct insult, I would again have to draw the conclusion that moderators pick and choose as your direct insult has not even been noted.
As for me and your insult, I take it as a compliment from one who knows no better.

[donKey jote]

... another example of a thread going down the toilet :andrea:

[gadjo_dilo]

Don't suddenly become to ingratiate yourself with the moderators by your denials.

Give me a break Spa. The mods are smart guys and see who's guilty and for what reason. And that's you for the lack of sense of humour. :p
BTW your appeal to mods is at the level of elementary school: ''comrade teacher, look at gadjo! she calls me names and is laughing at my homework''


If you do not understand something then don't respond.
To my knowledge these forums are free for anybody with a decent language and there are not restrictions for those with a low IQ like me. The purpose of a forum is a debate and I think it's in the spirit of such a place to help the others understand your thoughts, ideas, opinions,etc.
At the end of the day I think that's what Rudy asked but suddenly you became angry.....

[Spafranco]

Give me a break Spa. The mods are smart guys and see who's guilty and for what reason. And that's you for the lack of sense of humour. :p
BTW your appeal to mods is at the level of elementary school: ''comrade teacher, look at gadjo! she calls me names and is laughing at my homework''

To my knowledge these forums are free for anybody with a decent language and there are not restrictions for those with a low IQ like me. The purpose of a forum is a debate and I think it's in the spirit of such a place to help the others understand your thoughts, ideas, opinions,etc.
At the end of the day I think that's what Rudy asked but suddenly you became angry.....

I won't give you a break. You did exactly as Donkey stated and that was throwing this thread off in a direction it was not intended to do.

I for one am not asking for anyone to be banned, but when one has personally received a notice publicly that I will be banned if I continue on a particular topic, and not one other person has on the same thread, then it is , would you not agree, something that one would question when they were called a "nutcase"?

The issue is serious as pointed out so succinctly by Jag that it is not something to be sneered at.

Why would any sane person reply to a post or thread if they did not understand it.

Maybe, it is my fault in many cases where I do not read my posts and not being the greatest of typists make many errors.

Just to get back to you on a point. You state I have a lack of humor because I found it extremely offensive that a child legally in the US was to be separated from her father and that when she sat down the room clapped in approval of the measure to deport her father.
You find that humorous?

[Rollo]

My hope is that this move toward extreme bifurcation in American politics will bring about a strong(er) independent or 3rd party movement. Those of us who aren't pegged to the left or the right, and who don't suck up party propaganda like it's some sort of religion, should have better choices. IMO, that would better serve the republic.

I know that this is going to sound like rain on your parade but the principle of Duverger's law suggests that in single-member districts where the electoral process is won by the plurality rule, the system tends towards a two-party system; as it must, those in and those out.

This explains for instance why the United States, the UK, Australia and Canada which all have single-member districts for their lower houses have a We and a They in politics. In the Australian Senate which uses proportional representation and the New Zealand parliament which has a hybrid system, there's still a strong duopoly of major parties but a third or fourth party might find the electoral space and actually hold the balance of power in the house.

For a Them to be proper independent or 3rd party movement in American politics, they'd need to displace entirely either We or They. That roughly explains why Fillmore was the last Whig President and why the Republican party replaced it in the duopoly; the overlap in that case was about 6 years. (The GOP started in 1854 and the Whigs died in 1860).

[airshifter]

I would suggest to you that the article is just a touch biased against this Tennessee Tea Party Republican congressman .
Let's not forget that "undocumented" essentially means "illegal alien" , doesn't it ?
And , let's not forget that she has papers , so the opportunity likely existed for her father to do the same .

It's characterized in the quote you made as having them all happy that the little girl was sad , under stress and anxiety , and in the care of a child psychologist .
I would suggest that it is unlikely , no matter how evil these people appear to you , that they were clapping due to her sorrow .

What seems far more likely to me , is that they were clapping to express approval at the "no exceptions" aspect of the law in this case .
Sending him home is cruel for the child , but shows no bias towards those who are caught trying to circumvent the law .

There is likely nothing to stop her joining her father in his own country while he takes his place in line with all his fellow countrymen who are awaiting entry through legal means .

It's an easy situation to use to pick on them , as there's a teary-eyed youngster with which to pull heart strings , but how many legal entry applications with the same scenario are there going across desks at immigration every day ?
I would think there are many .


I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there is likely another side to this than what is put forward in the article .

You're right on in your thoughts on the matter. The episode is on video, and they also cheered when the girl asked the question. The "evil" politician was very polite to her. It's more of the same... making something out of nothing using bias when trying to accuse people of bias. :)

[Spafranco]

I know that this is going to sound like rain on your parade but the principle of Duverger's law suggests that in single-member districts where the electoral process is won by the plurality rule, the system tends towards a two-party system; as it must, those in and those out.

This explains for instance why the United States, the UK, Australia and Canada which all have single-member districts for their lower houses have a We and a They in politics. In the Australian Senate which uses proportional representation and the New Zealand parliament which has a hybrid system, there's still a strong duopoly of major parties but a third or fourth party might find the electoral space and actually hold the balance of power in the house.

For a Them to be proper independent or 3rd party movement in American politics, they'd need to displace entirely either We or They. That roughly explains why Fillmore was the last Whig President and why the Republican party replaced it in the duopoly; the overlap in that case was about 6 years. (The GOP started in 1854 and the Whigs died in 1860).

Well written Rollo. I'm wondering with proportional representation that leads to a coalition government where the winner of most votes but not enough reaches the required number by attracting another party to get these extra votes and so creates a government.

This seems to happen in Italy and we see what occurs there. I also know that it occurs in Ireland;no recollection as to when any coalition government succeeded in the emerald Isle.

I will go back on topic but the conversation between Jag and your good self was very interesting.

[Spafranco]

You're right on in your thoughts on the matter. The episode is on video, and they also cheered when the girl asked the question. The "evil" politician was very polite to her. It's more of the same... making something out of nothing using bias when trying to accuse people of bias. :)

Here we go again. Shifter, I would bet my last dollar that when Elian Gonzalez was taken out of Miami and sent back to Cuba you were one of those that raised all sorts of commotion. You will deny it of course.

Are you one of those like the Westbury church crowd that chants and holds up signs at the funerals of dead soldiers with the most vulgar of signs?
"Evil politician was polite to her" but I'm for sending your daddy back to Mexico. You minimize as has Bagwan the bigger picture. Do what all the right wingers do. You view this incident deliberately as though IT is the only deportation that will occur in the next few weeks.

I see where you stand Shifter and it is not a pretty place.

[Rollo]

Well written Rollo. I'm wondering with proportional representation that leads to a coalition government where the winner of most votes but not enough reaches the required number by attracting another party to get these extra votes and so creates a government.

The short answer is yes and the long answer is Belgium.

Belgium uses an Open Party List system of proportional representation and the current coalition government has six parties in it whilst the official opposition has five parties plus one declared independent. Eleven political parties represented all up and they've still passed more legislation than the 112th US Congress (which did even less than the so-called "Do Nothing" Congress of '47-'49 - no.80).

[555-04Q2]

You must have this very insecure mendacious attitude to first deride me then without even thinking (sic) that you are living in some type of nirvana. Alas for you, you live in one of the worlds most violent countries with one of the lowest life expectancy rates as well as the child/infant mortality near the bottom of countries examined.
Keep it.
As for your direct insult, I would again have to draw the conclusion that moderators pick and choose as your direct insult has not even been noted.
As for me and your insult, I take it as a compliment from one who knows no better.

I'm not sure whether to take you seriously or not. I mean, really? Is humour a foreign thing to you? And I extended a genuine invite that you then shoot down? WTF! A simple no thanks or can't make it there would have sufficed.

Oh well time to go have an intelligent conversation with the mirror obviously :p :

[pino]

I won't give you a break. You did exactly as Donkey stated and that was throwing this thread off in a direction it was not intended to do.

I for one am not asking for anyone to be banned, but when one has personally received a notice publicly that I will be banned if I continue on a particular topic, and not one other person has on the same thread, then it is , would you not agree, something that one would question when they were called a "nutcase"?

The issue is serious as pointed out so succinctly by Jag that it is not something to be sneered at.

Why would any sane person reply to a post or thread if they did not understand it.

Maybe, it is my fault in many cases where I do not read my posts and not being the greatest of typists make many errors.

Just to get back to you on a point. You state I have a lack of humor because I found it extremely offensive that a child legally in the US was to be separated from her father and that when she sat down the room clapped in approval of the measure to deport her father.
You find that humorous?

Once again you are confusing humor with insults. A little humor is welcome, personal comments/insults are not. Try to remember that, and try not to take everything too serious ( Life is too damn short for that).

[Bagwan]

The "quote I made"?

Your comment about the clapping and your reason for it makes me sick. I don't have to explain why. It is obvious.

You quoted an article , didn't you ?
Am I wrong about that ?

Does the father automatically get absolved of his illegal entry crime because he has a teary-eyed daughter ?
If he didn't have a child , would you be so upset by all this ?

[Starter]

You quoted an article , didn't you ?
Am I wrong about that ?

Does the father automatically get absolved of his illegal entry crime because he has a teary-eyed daughter ?
If he didn't have a child , would you be so upset by all this ?
By extension, I suppose that someone convicted of murder should also be pardoned if they had a daughter who cries because they were being locked away.

The law is the law. Don't like it? Use your energies to change it instead of casting aspersions on those who support it. That's pretty much what a democracy is about.

[airshifter]

Here we go again. Shifter, I would bet my last dollar that when Elian Gonzalez was taken out of Miami and sent back to Cuba you were one of those that raised all sorts of commotion. You will deny it of course.

Are you one of those like the Westbury church crowd that chants and holds up signs at the funerals of dead soldiers with the most vulgar of signs?
"Evil politician was polite to her" but I'm for sending your daddy back to Mexico. You minimize as has Bagwan the bigger picture. Do what all the right wingers do. You view this incident deliberately as though IT is the only deportation that will occur in the next few weeks.

I see where you stand Shifter and it is not a pretty place.

Beyond the fact that you imply things simply not even close to reality, this post gives great insight to your obvious and apparent bias, placing of stereotypes, and failure to respect the legal and lawful decision as the right thing to do.

I've clarified in the past that you know nothing about my character, political views, family, life, or values. But I'm not surprised you continue to take the low road with your assumptions and implications. If it's an attempt to drag me down the the gutter level you are failing.


But it is refreshing to know that someone else remembers the excessive use of force with a SWAT style capture of Elian Gonzalez.... all at the hands of the TEA party Republicans right? :laugh:

[Spafranco]

You quoted an article , didn't you ?
Am I wrong about that ?

Does the father automatically get absolved of his illegal entry crime because he has a teary-eyed daughter ?
If he didn't have a child , would you be so upset by all this ?

I did not "quote" an article. I referenced it.
No he does not get absolved and yes if he did not have a daughter which you obviously do not have I would find it easier to agree with the deportation.

Ronald Reagan , even though I was not his biggest fan brought in asylum for illegals in 1986. One of the reasons was to keep the family unit together. A noble idea and one you might keep in mind instead of directing your attention on the beleaguered child and father.
What brings a tear to your eye? Probably missing a dang moose.

[Spafranco]

Beyond the fact that you imply things simply not even close to reality, this post gives great insight to your obvious and apparent bias, placing of stereotypes, and failure to respect the legal and lawful decision as the right thing to do.

I've clarified in the past that you know nothing about my character, political views, family, life, or values. But I'm not surprised you continue to take the low road with your assumptions and implications. If it's an attempt to drag me down the the gutter level you are failing.


But it is refreshing to know that someone else remembers the excessive use of force with a SWAT style capture of Elian Gonzalez.... all at the hands of the TEA party Republicans right? :laugh:

How could I drag you into the gutter when you are beyond that. So, lets put your implied reasoning to the test here. Swat team is bad because.....they're scary? Laughing and clapping at a crying child losing her father is good.....?

You post a non-response and do not answer anything. Just assertions and without any real credible retort to what I stated.
This is what you do. Have been doing and will always do. That is why it is so sad. The blatant lack of sympathy for someone if they are not of your political stripe.

[Spafranco]

By extension, I suppose that someone convicted of murder should also be pardoned if they had a daughter who cries because they were being locked away.

The law is the law. Don't like it? Use your energies to change it instead of casting aspersions on those who support it. That's pretty much what a democracy is about.

Equating a misdemeanor to a class a felony is his argument.?! God help us.

[Spafranco]

You.............................need.............. .................help! Call 0800 NUTHOUSE for free assistance.

And yes, South Africa is a wonderful place to live in. Come visit sometime, I will introduce you to real beer, a proper braai (barbeque for the yanks), good friendly people, fantastic weather and the hottest chicks on the planet bar none.

By the way since you started insulting, what type of Nuthouse are you suggesting? Let me know of the ailment, and then tell me or suggest to me what I should ask for in medication. k?

[Bagwan]

I did not "quote" an article. I referenced it.
No he does not get absolved and yes if he did not have a daughter which you obviously do not have I would find it easier to agree with the deportation.

Ronald Reagan , even though I was not his biggest fan brought in asylum for illegals in 1986. One of the reasons was to keep the family unit together. A noble idea and one you might keep in mind instead of directing your attention on the beleaguered child and father.
What brings a tear to your eye? Probably missing a dang moose.

I am sorry that I used the word "quote". I wasn't trying to upset you .

You're right that I don't have a daughter . I have a son .

Certainly , this man was trying to live with his daughter in the US for the right reasons , to allow her to enjoy the benefits of doing so .
That is an absolutely commendable thing to do .

However , he was not in the country legally , and that is not a position I would ever put my son in .
If , for some reason , this occurred to he and I , the first thing that would come to my mind would be that he would come home with me , at least until I could sort my papers too .

Your last sentence , referencing a moose because , I suppose , I am Canadian is rather petty and provocative , and does little to make your point .
I only wish to discuss and debate here .
I'm not attacking you at all , but rather just trying to understand .

I understand now , that the daughter , in this instance makes all the difference for you if I'm right .

For me , the idea that the father was breaking the law , combines with the assumed duress on the child to make me rather more angry with the father for putting his child through such sadness .

So , rather than being as heartless as you may assume I am , it is actually the daughter for whom I feel sorry as well .
Just like you .

And , by the way , missing a moose with your car is certainly not going to make me cry , but hitting one might make my wife and son cry .
Happily , we have a big country , and there aren't too many moose in my neck of the woods .

[Koz]

To Koz in particular, the reason the Einsatsgruppen was brought up should have been very clear. Rarely do I ever make a statement about the Nazi regime as so many posts referring to same are from those that are uneducated on German history. I do not say that as a know-it-all, I say it as a fact.
How many times has the mere statement of fact that the Nazi's were right wing opposed by members of this very forum. What is the point in arguing with people who advance ludicrous opinions whilst so ill informed.
The reason I bring up the Einsatzgruppen and Himmler along with Heydrich is that they were very much influential in Belarus indirectly having the citizens of Belarus to form their own death squads to murder their own citizens.
Why resort to that? It is simple because of the content of the Tea Party comments that are at the start of this thread. The slippery slope has begun.

The only thing I see clearly is a pathetic attempt to condemn members for their nationality.

I really cannot see any connection with the deportation of illegal immigrants.

Or are you implying that deporting an illegal immigrant who happens to have a daughter will lead mass murder and genocide of American citizens by American citizens (Tea Party Members)?


DesJarlais thanked her for the question but said, “the answer remains the same. We have laws and we should follow those laws.” The pro-Tea Party, mostly anti-immigration crowd cheered loudly in approval to his response.

What do you expect him to say?
"Ok, little girl I will stop your daddy from being deported because I am all powerful and above the law."

What did he do wrong?
What reality are you living in?

[555-04Q2]

By the way since you started insulting, what type of Nuthouse are you suggesting? Let me know of the ailment, and then tell me or suggest to me what I should ask for in medication. k?

Actually in the first sentence of your post #8 you insulted, or at least attempted, to insult me first. So don't come with your cr@p that I insulted you first. Read your post duckbrains. You not a bright fellow, are you :?:

[gadjo_dilo]

OK, I apologise from the start for what I'll say but you know I have a sick imagination and can't help thinking of how our fellow Spa would react if his country would be invaded ( as the day when USA will renounce to ask visas for us is more and more closer )by a big crowd of roma gypsies and naturally they would want to send them back. I admit that nothing compares with a chorus of "puradei" (their offsprings) crying ( at command, of course :devil: ).

[Rudy Tamasz]

OK, I apologise from the start for what I'll say but you know I have a sick imagination and can't help thinking of how our fellow Spa would react if his country would be invaded ( as the day when USA will renounce to ask visas for us is more and more closer )by a big crowd of roma gypsies and naturally they would want to send them back. I admit that nothing compares with a chorus of "puradei" (their offsprings) crying ( at command, of course :devil: ).

Talk about roma gypsies... Now imagine if those were gypsy romas!

[Rudy Tamasz]

BTW, gadjo_dilo, please accept my condolences on the death of Florin Cioaba. Must be a big loss for the whole country.

[gadjo_dilo]

BTW, gadjo_dilo, please accept my condolences on the death of Florin Cioaba. Must be a big loss for the whole country.
Thanks for caring. But good God! He's famous even in Belarus.... :laugh:

Yes, it's a big loss. I know you said it in a jokey way but the odyssey of his staying in hospital in Antalya, his death, his hospital bills, the long way home, the way from Bucharest to Sibiu, all these are covered all day long at TV for more than a week. Even our president moved his as* to Sibiu to express his pain. The funeral is today, traffic in Sibiu is restricted, his son already was crowned as international ( :p ) king of the gypsies, etc.

When I get home I'll show you some videos of the funeral risking some smiles from most of you and a serious admonestation from Spa.

The bad news is that it was announced that "pirandele" ( gypsies'women)won't wash themselves for 30 days as a sign of mourning. Gotta go and find a gas mask....

[gadjo_dilo]

Hey Rudy, are you still online?
It's live on TV:

RTV Live | RTV.net | Romania TV (http://www.rtv.net/live)

[Rudy Tamasz]

Seen it on Euronews.

[Spafranco]

Actually in the first sentence of your post #8 you insulted, or at least attempted, to insult me first. So don't come with your cr@p that I insulted you first. Read your post duckbrains. You not a bright fellow, are you :?:

You perceived it as an insult. Now you expose yourself once more to your trite attempt at insulting me. Go ahead 555-04Q2, sticks and stones.

I understand that South Africa as brilliant a place as you believe it is does not even rank in the most recent world education standards. I'll give

you a pass since there is an impediment that you have to face and it is a difficult one.

[Spafranco]

OK, I apologise from the start for what I'll say but you know I have a sick imagination and can't help thinking of how our fellow Spa would react if his country would be invaded ( as the day when USA will renounce to ask visas for us is more and more closer )by a big crowd of roma gypsies and naturally they would want to send them back. I admit that nothing compares with a chorus of "puradei" (their offsprings) crying ( at command, of course :devil: ).

There is as much logic in that query as there is in asking if the moon is made of cheese.

[555-04Q2]

You perceived it as an insult. Now you expose yourself once more to your trite attempt at insulting me. Go ahead 555-04Q2, sticks and stones.

I understand that South Africa as brilliant a place as you believe it is does not even rank in the most recent world education standards. I'll give

you a pass since there is an impediment that you have to face and it is a difficult one.

:laugh: ok boet, have a couple beers this weekend and let your hair down, ok.

Posted from the ****hole that is South Africa!

[bugeyedgomer]

A Tennessee tea party Republican congressman told a frightened little girl at a town hall meeting on Thursday in Murfreesboro, TN that laws are laws and that her undocumented father is going to have to be deported. According to ProgressivePopulist.org (http://progressivepopulist.org/2013/08/17/tennessee-republican-rejects-trembling-little-girls-request-for-help-at-town-hall-meeting-video/), 11-year-old Josie Molina told Rep. Scott Desjarlais (R) that she has papers but her father does not.

The tea party crowd whooped and applauded wildly as the little girl took her seat, head down. Progressive Populist reported that Josie Molina’s father is currently in the process of being deported and that the girl is seeing a child psychologist in order to cope with the stress and anxiety.

Here we have the Tea Party(hate group) once more showing their real family values.

It may ne a good thing to have the undocumented deported just to show these idiots how much they are saving through the efforts of the undocumented workers, those specifically from Mexico and Central America. That would include, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and others. Just so you do not have to Google them.

But it all makes sense to me now when I thing of the Iran Contra affair and the criminal North on Fox along with Libby and probably Kerik (sic) in the near future.

Family values...I ask you.

R U longing for the Soviet gulags again. Did you miss your chance of vacationing there? I have a photo of Daniel Ortega in the cross-hairs of a Special Forces sniper rifle; would you like a copy?

[gadjo_dilo]

There is as much logic in that query as there is in asking if the moon is made of cheese.

Well, a moon made of cheese is a metaphor and metaphors and logic don't match well. Wonder why you picked this example. Maybe during your life you had to cope with some moon cheese.......? :confused:

[airshifter]

Now... a bit of information for those seeking the entire story here.

The little girl is named Josie Molina. Her mother was with her at this meeting, and aware that she was intending to get up and speak, even after two undocumented immigrants that got up and spoke got the same response. If anything the girls mother allowed the situation that the young girl endured.

"Her mother, Megan Macaraeg, said she was surprised when her daughter got up to speak, after two undocumented immigrants spoke earlier and got the same response. Macaraeg is an organizing director for the Tennessee Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition,“I said, ‘Ok you might get attention for this, are you ready?’” said Macaraeg.
“I’m ready,” Josie said, recalling her response."

The above quoted from: Eleven-year-old (http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/20/eleven-year-old-mad-at-tea-party-republican-for-saying-her-dad-should-be-deported/)


And as they say in TV ad land... "But wait, there's MORE!"


It seems that the mother, Megan Macaraeg, is a legal immigrant from the Philippines. Nothing at all unusual about that right? But Megan is also the Organizing Director at the The Tennessee Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition, a group who attended the meeting in large numbers to oppose Congressman DesJarlais views on Immigration.

According the the TIRRC website:

"What you don't see is a group of over 90 Rutherford County residents behind Josie who showed up to urge DesJarlais, their representative in Congress, to support common-sense immigration reform. To them, DesJarlais needs to have a better answer. TIRRC has been organizing grassroots community members across the state for over a decade, because all Americans deserve an immigration system that upholds our values and keeps families together."

From the following link: Blog - TN Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition - TIRRC (http://www.tnimmigrant.org/blog)



So it seems at least a fairly large portion of that obnoxious crowd were in fact people there to support immigration law changes. And in fact the child was there with the mother, who was involved in the group there to speak on these changes.



Where are the family values here?

[D-Type]

Well following that sensibly phrased post can I take the opportunity to ask everyone to cut out the personal comments. It is all too easy for a personal comment to be interpreted as a personal insult and for things to escalate. And for an aggressive response to be read as a personal comment. Within limits you can attack the post but attacking the poster is not allowed.
[/moderator]

[Spafranco]

Well, a moon made of cheese is a metaphor and metaphors and logic don't match well. Wonder why you picked this example. Maybe during your life you had to cope with some moon cheese.......? :confused:
In my lifetime I have dealt with many types including yours. It's really splendid that in your attempt to be relevant you in fact prove the point that was made.
Now, try to stay on the topic and not deviating in tangents that seem even out of your league. Hard as that may seem as I am enthralled by your intelligent repartee :D .

[Spafranco]

Now... a bit of information for those seeking the entire story here.

The little girl is named Josie Molina. Her mother was with her at this meeting, and aware that she was intending to get up and speak, even after two undocumented immigrants that got up and spoke got the same response. If anything the girls mother allowed the situation that the young girl endured.

"Her mother, Megan Macaraeg, said she was surprised when her daughter got up to speak, after two undocumented immigrants spoke earlier and got the same response. Macaraeg is an organizing director for the Tennessee Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition,“I said, ‘Ok you might get attention for this, are you ready?’” said Macaraeg.
“I’m ready,” Josie said, recalling her response."

The above quoted from: Eleven-year-old (http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/20/eleven-year-old-mad-at-tea-party-republican-for-saying-her-dad-should-be-deported/)


And as they say in TV ad land... "But wait, there's MORE!"


It seems that the mother, Megan Macaraeg, is a legal immigrant from the Philippines. Nothing at all unusual about that right? But Megan is also the Organizing Director at the The Tennessee Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition, a group who attended the meeting in large numbers to oppose Congressman DesJarlais views on Immigration.

According the the TIRRC website:

"What you don't see is a group of over 90 Rutherford County residents behind Josie who showed up to urge DesJarlais, their representative in Congress, to support common-sense immigration reform. To them, DesJarlais needs to have a better answer. TIRRC has been organizing grassroots community members across the state for over a decade, because all Americans deserve an immigration system that upholds our values and keeps families together."

From the following link: Blog - TN Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition - TIRRC (http://www.tnimmigrant.org/blog)



So it seems at least a fairly large portion of that obnoxious crowd were in fact people there to support immigration law changes. And in fact the child was there with the mother, who was involved in the group there to speak on these changes.



Where are the family values here?

That is exactly the question. Where are the family values. Your post is drifts in the direction that is so telegraphed the conclusion was highly

predictable.

What I do not get with those that have issues with immigration is that this country was founded on the sweat and blood of immigrants. Do you

really believe that there would be road work, say paving with hot tar done in May through Sept if not for the Hispanic or Latin people?

A wonderful segment of our population that is constantly belittled as they attempt to at least have some type of life for their families. Hard workers that do not have a chance in Mexico, Honduras , El Salvador. In fact so many of these people are trying to escape political atrocities meted out upon them by people (governments) swayed by the mighty dollar heading south.

[Bagwan]

Spafranco , I don't think anyone is suggesting that immigration is a bad thing .

This man may have had the upper hand in the immigration line , given he has a wife and child who are both legally in the states , but , somehow he is there illegally .

And , I think it's likely safe so assume he will start the process to return as soon as he is back in his home country .

[Garry Walker]

A Tennessee tea party Republican congressman told a frightened little girl at a town hall meeting on Thursday in Murfreesboro, TN that laws are laws and that her undocumented father is going to have to be deported. According to ProgressivePopulist.org (http://progressivepopulist.org/2013/08/17/tennessee-republican-rejects-trembling-little-girls-request-for-help-at-town-hall-meeting-video/), 11-year-old Josie Molina told Rep. Scott Desjarlais (R) that she has papers but her father does not.

The tea party crowd whooped and applauded wildly as the little girl took her seat, head down. Progressive Populist reported that Josie Molina’s father is currently in the process of being deported and that the girl is seeing a child psychologist in order to cope with the stress and anxiety.

Where is problem? That an illegal alien is getting deported? That is a good thing. Laws are laws.



What brings a tear to your eye? Probably missing a dang moose.

Seeing a communist die. That brings a tear to my eye. From laughter :laugh:

[airshifter]

In my lifetime I have dealt with many types including yours. It's really splendid that in your attempt to be relevant you in fact prove the point that was made.
Now, try to stay on the topic and not deviating in tangents that seem even out of your league. Hard as that may seem as I am enthralled by your intelligent repartee :D .

Completely uncalled for. If you look at your own posts, you have drifted to comparisons to the Nazis, attacks on politicians of certain parties, attacks or insults on just about every other person that has posted anything, and stereotypes of just about every other person posting. If your entire concern is immigration, keep to the subject and quit acting as if you have all the answers and everyone else is wrong.

For someone that constantly cries foul, you give the moderators plenty of reasons to see you as the hostile one in the majority of cases. If you want to be responded to as an adult, act like one. And if you'd like to take a poll, my money says that you have yet to convince anyone that you are any more intelligent than the person you are trying to degrade above.



That is exactly the question. Where are the family values. Your post is drifts in the direction that is so telegraphed the conclusion was highly

predictable.

If the conclusion you consider so predictable is one of telling the real story, I'm fine with that. You quoted something all over the internet, and did no research into the reality of the entire story. It's not my fault that the truth is a far cry from what you posted, or that you did so with a great deal of bias as an attack against political parties and those you seem to associate with such parties.

Are you now mad at the girls mother and/or the immigration organization she works for? If not, why? According to you, the girl was subjected to things that a child should not be subjected to that could cause her issues. Do you suddenly not care since the people that caused the situation are liberal immigration supporters? Where are your family values, or do they vary based on the political party that is involved with each situation.




What I do not get with those that have issues with immigration is that this country was founded on the sweat and blood of immigrants. Do you

really believe that there would be road work, say paving with hot tar done in May through Sept if not for the Hispanic or Latin people?

A wonderful segment of our population that is constantly belittled as they attempt to at least have some type of life for their families. Hard workers that do not have a chance in Mexico, Honduras , El Salvador. In fact so many of these people are trying to escape political atrocities meted out upon them by people (governments) swayed by the mighty dollar heading south.

What you apparently do not get is that people are much more complex than the shallow stereotypes you wrongly assign to many of them. What you also do not get is that you yourself are belittling a great part of the immigrant population yourself with your above words suggesting that they must do all the paving work in hot months. A great number of immigrants have a much higher skill set than that and they work within all kinds of industry and business. Some are the owners of said businesses, along with just about any other trade or profession you can imagine.

Within a few houses of where I live I have immigrants from Mexico, El Salvador, the Philippines, Africa, and the son of an immigrant from Norway. My primary care doctor is an immigrant, as was the heart specialist that administered the stress testing I did a while back, along with our family dentist and my daughters orthodontist. All of them are legal immigrants and not a single one of them works in any type of labor trade. I've yet to see anyone here post something that belittles immigrants other than yourself with your implication that they only take the labor jobs nobody wants to do.

So despite your stereotype, I see immigrants doing a lot of different jobs. And I also see US born men and women of many different races, religions, sizes and education levels doing a lot of different jobs, including road paving in hot summer months and other physical and uncomfortable jobs.


And even though I'm married to the daughter of an immigrant, and have a number of friends and acquaintances that are immigrants, and recognize the contributions of all immigrants, I am very opposed to allowing illegal immigrants to be given exceptions due to their lack of responsibility. It would be a slap in the face to all those that have been responsible and gained legal entry into this country.

As for family values, in this case they were compromised when the mother and father weren't responsible for their own actions. The mother should have known better due to her position and IMO should be fired. The father should be deported. I would suggest that child social services should monitor the condition of the child, as her parents have made poor decisions in many aspects of living, including allowing a situation that would remove the father from the family.

[Alexamateo]

There are some nice responses here, but the reality is that for most classes of immigrants from Mexico and the like, there is no line for them to get into.

Why Don (http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/why-don%E2%80%99t-they-just-get-line)

http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

The truth is that there are no avenues for unskilled immigrants with no relationships in the US to come here. Demand far outstrips supply, and average wait times approach infinity. Heck, a quick check of the Visa Bulletin put out by the State Department reveals that even for relatives it's a long time. My wife's sister would like to come here, and we could easily sponsor her, but right now they are only taking applications made on or before September 22, 1996, so apply today and wait 17 years. Other family classes are even longer dating to 1993. What would be a reasonable time? Well, my wife's k-1 fiancee visa took 4 months. Of course,there is no artificial limit on fiancee visas.

Visa Bulletin For August 2013 (http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_6028.html)

On the employer front, I have customers that would love to take part in H1b and H2B programs, but these are capped way below demand and all of the slots are snapped up by larger companies who have the time and staff to jump through the hoops and paperwork process. So what do you get, you get forged documents allowing you to take out social security and other taxes. At some point in the process,you get a letter from the Social security saying the # and name are mismatched that you stick in their file because no one ever follows up. In other words, it stinks, but you hold your nose and keep moving forward. And before someone raises this argument, please note that our wages rose when immigrants started coming in. They rose because production rose (more construction projects completed in faster time with fewer errors) and you didn't want them to get away. Honestly, it's a pretty good pre-employment test. If someone is willing to put themselves through this immigration process whether legal or illegal, you have a motivated worker.

There is no line, at least not an effective one.

[Alexamateo]

Another thing, I live in Tennessee, the state that all of this is happening in. My wife's 17 year old nephew is staying with us for a while. He's finished high school in Mexico and wanted to come here and study English before starting University in January. Guess what, we can't enroll him in any public university. He's here legally of course and well within the 6 months permitted by his travel visa, but we can't even go to the local junior college and pay out-of-state tuition for a single formal English as a second language class because some of our illustrious state legislatures passed a law saying so. Heaven forbid an illegal immigrant try to enroll in school, never mind that he's not.

[airshifter]

Alexamateo,

I completely agree the current system is very flawed and needs major changes. Without those changes the number of people trying to beat the system will simply continue to rise, and that hurts everyone involved. I would also state that the system isn't consistent at all, not even close in many cases. We have seen that firsthand in my mother in laws family and have seen friends and acquaintances state the same in the case of their families.

I think a great number of politicians are, as usual, trying to play both sides of the fence and unwilling to really openly state their stance on immigration. Thus the outdated laws in the interest of trying to buy votes from many different groups of individuals.

What we need is a change in laws to make them reasonable, and then a policy of no tolerance. With the law changes should be some type of rapid path to becoming legal for those already here and proven to be a productive and tax paying person who supports the economy.

[Starter]

Another thing, I live in Tennessee, the state that all of this is happening in. My wife's 17 year old nephew is staying with us for a while. He's finished high school in Mexico and wanted to come here and study English before starting University in January. Guess what, we can't enroll him in any public university. He's here legally of course and well within the 6 months permitted by his travel visa, but we can't even go to the local junior college and pay out-of-state tuition for a single formal English as a second language class because some of our illustrious state legislatures passed a law saying so. Heaven forbid an illegal immigrant try to enroll in school, never mind that he's not.
Alex, all good points you've made here and in the post above. My main objection to some of the "make illegals legal" proposals is exactly that it is a direct slap in the face to all those who have gone about the process correctly.

My position is straightforward. Reform the process to expedite citizenship, guest or temp worker access, students, etc. Process all of the people on the wait list first. Then accept new applications. (Government loves a bureaucracy - think of all the new jobs in the agency.) Amnesty for current illegals who go home, whether or not they then apply correctly to come back. Jail time and deportation for those here illegally who stay past the amnesty period - with no possibility of future legal status. Harsh penalties for future illegals.

[Jag_Warrior]

I know that this is going to sound like rain on your parade but the principle of Duverger's law suggests that in single-member districts where the electoral process is won by the plurality rule, the system tends towards a two-party system; as it must, those in and those out.

This explains for instance why the United States, the UK, Australia and Canada which all have single-member districts for their lower houses have a We and a They in politics. In the Australian Senate which uses proportional representation and the New Zealand parliament which has a hybrid system, there's still a strong duopoly of major parties but a third or fourth party might find the electoral space and actually hold the balance of power in the house.

For a Them to be proper independent or 3rd party movement in American politics, they'd need to displace entirely either We or They. That roughly explains why Fillmore was the last Whig President and why the Republican party replaced it in the duopoly; the overlap in that case was about 6 years. (The GOP started in 1854 and the Whigs died in 1860).

I believe you are correct. But what we must also recognize is that political parties can morph into something else, while retaining the original name. For instance, both the Democrat and the Republican parties of 2013 are very different from the Democrat and Republican parties of say, 1866. And we appear to now have a Republican Party which is (becoming) quite different from the Republican Party of even 1990. The TEA Party (Parties, to be more correct) have not taken over the GOP nationally. But it/they have pretty much taken over the GOP in many/most southern states. It has been successful in displacing (more like purging) more moderate Republicans, right down to trying to force people to sign pledges (Mr. "unelected to anything ever" Grover Norquist's tax pledge and the "Purity Pledge" in South Carolina a year or so ago).

As I've said on here many times, I am not a party person. I believe that George Washington's words on party loyalty (over loyalty to the republic) are now ringing truer than ever. But if I am going to vote, I just wish my choices were something better than "oh, good grief!" vs. "ah, hell no!".

I'm sure that it will happen long after I am dead and buried, if it ever happens... but in the course of human social evolution, it seems like we should be able to rise above our current (bifurcated) tribal mentalities.

[Starter]

I'm sure that it will happen long after I am dead and buried, if it ever happens... but in the course of human social evolution, it seems like we should be able to rise above our current (bifurcated) tribal mentalities.
I am optimistic that your "should be" will, in the end, come true.

Though the history of the last thirty years or so, world wide as well as in the US, indicate otherwise.

[Spafranco]

Completely uncalled for. If you look at your own posts, you have drifted to comparisons to the Nazis, attacks on politicians of certain parties, attacks or insults on just about every other person that has posted anything, and stereotypes of just about every other person posting. If your entire concern is immigration, keep to the subject and quit acting as if you have all the answers and everyone else is wrong.

For someone that constantly cries foul, you give the moderators plenty of reasons to see you as the hostile one in the majority of cases. If you want to be responded to as an adult, act like one. And if you'd like to take a poll, my money says that you have yet to convince anyone that you are any more intelligent than the person you are trying to degrade above.




If the conclusion you consider so predictable is one of telling the real story, I'm fine with that. You quoted something all over the internet, and did no research into the reality of the entire story. It's not my fault that the truth is a far cry from what you posted, or that you did so with a great deal of bias as an attack against political parties and those you seem to associate with such parties.

Are you now mad at the girls mother and/or the immigration organization she works for? If not, why? According to you, the girl was subjected to things that a child should not be subjected to that could cause her issues. Do you suddenly not care since the people that caused the situation are liberal immigration supporters? Where are your family values, or do they vary based on the political party that is involved with each situation.




What you apparently do not get is that people are much more complex than the shallow stereotypes you wrongly assign to many of them. What you also do not get is that you yourself are belittling a great part of the immigrant population yourself with your above words suggesting that they must do all the paving work in hot months. A great number of immigrants have a much higher skill set than that and they work within all kinds of industry and business. Some are the owners of said businesses, along with just about any other trade or profession you can imagine.

Within a few houses of where I live I have immigrants from Mexico, El Salvador, the Philippines, Africa, and the son of an immigrant from Norway. My primary care doctor is an immigrant, as was the heart specialist that administered the stress testing I did a while back, along with our family dentist and my daughters orthodontist. All of them are legal immigrants and not a single one of them works in any type of labor trade. I've yet to see anyone here post something that belittles immigrants other than yourself with your implication that they only take the labor jobs nobody wants to do.

So despite your stereotype, I see immigrants doing a lot of different jobs. And I also see US born men and women of many different races, religions, sizes and education levels doing a lot of different jobs, including road paving in hot summer months and other physical and uncomfortable jobs.


And even though I'm married to the daughter of an immigrant, and have a number of friends and acquaintances that are immigrants, and recognize the contributions of all immigrants, I am very opposed to allowing illegal immigrants to be given exceptions due to their lack of responsibility. It would be a slap in the face to all those that have been responsible and gained legal entry into this country.

As for family values, in this case they were compromised when the mother and father weren't responsible for their own actions. The mother should have known better due to her position and IMO should be fired. The father should be deported. I would suggest that child social services should monitor the condition of the child, as her parents have made poor decisions in many aspects of living, including allowing a situation that would remove the father from the family.

On and on and on the gaggle goes. Never ceases to amaze me of the absolute blindness shown by so many. To articulate a point in this place is nigh on impossible. Above are three that fall into that category.

[Spafranco]

Alex, all good points you've made here and in the post above. My main objection to some of the "make illegals legal" proposals is exactly that it is a direct slap in the face to all those who have gone about the process correctly.

My position is straightforward. Reform the process to expedite citizenship, guest or temp worker access, students, etc. Process all of the people on the wait list first. Then accept new applications. (Government loves a bureaucracy - think of all the new jobs in the agency.) Amnesty for current illegals who go home, whether or not they then apply correctly to come back. Jail time and deportation for those here illegally who stay past the amnesty period - with no possibility of future legal status. Harsh penalties for future illegals.

How in the world does this Starter character know what illegal immigrants that became legal know about all this, nothing. He and the rest of his minions should tell the room they dislike people south of the border. They fear the vote!!

Alex, don't fall for the I know a lot of Mexicans and I even have friends tripe that is being spewed in your direction.

[Alexamateo]

Amnesty is not a slap in the face to those who follow the correct process. If you follow what I said, you'll see that arbitrary quotas and restrictions that are well below immigration demand create an untenable situation where there is no line as wait times exceed a persons natural lifespan. I mentioned my wife's sister waiting 17 years for a green card if she applied today. In reality she couldn't even apply because my wife is not a citizen, oh we could probably change that in 6 months if we start the process, but my wife hasn't wanted to. She'd rather carry a Mexican passport.

If my wife were a citizen though, we would have had to applied 2 years before we met in order for the green card process to begin. My wife and I have known each other for 15 years, been married 14 and have 3 children. That's a good chunk of a lifetime and entirely too long to wait.

When I look at the history of immigration laws in this country, they are in my opinion almost entirely rooted in racism and exclusion of groups of so-called undesirables. Starting with Chinese exclusion act, then expanded to the Asiatic barred zone act to cover the rest of eastern Asians.

Back in the days of Ellis Island, there were essentially no restrictions other than the aforementioned Chinese and Asians. Your boat passage was your ticket to get into the United States. The only people turned away were anarchists, criminals, the sick, and the crazy. That's fine, you should have immigration control and registration. 99.9% of illegal immigrants I know would have no problem with registration and modest fees and "X" number of years probation before trying for full citizenship. Their problem is that there is no effective line to get into if you are from certain countries.

Starting in the 1920's though, people became upset about our "culture" and started establishing quotas with the emergency quota act of 1921 and the 1924 immigration act. (This is also when illegal immigration started to be a problem)

In 1952, it was fully codified into law. Harry Truman vetoed it, but congress overrode it and it passed. His words I think are fitting:


Today, we are "protecting" ourselves as we were in 1924, against being flooded by immigrants from Eastern Europe. This is fantastic...We do not need to be protected against immigrants from these countries–on the contrary we want to stretch out a helping hand, to save those who have managed to flee into Western Europe, to succor those who are brave enough to escape from barbarism, to welcome and restore them against the day when their countries will, as we hope, be free again....These are only a few examples of the absurdity, the cruelty of carrying over into this year of 1952 the isolationist limitations of our 1924 law. In no other realm of our national life are we so hampered and stultified by the dead hand of the past, as we are in this field of immigration.

The problem is arbitrary quotas , by all means register people and do background checks and collect fees and have a probationary period, but get rid of quotas and restrictions.

[Rollo]

I'm sure that it will happen long after I am dead and buried, if it ever happens... but in the course of human social evolution, it seems like we should be able to rise above our current (bifurcated) tribal mentalities.

Starter suggests this:

I am optimistic that your "should be" will, in the end, come true.
Though the history of the last thirty years or so, world wide as well as in the US, indicate otherwise.

I am not in the slightest bit optimistic.

Rupert Murdoch Warned By Australian Press Watchdog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/rupert-murdoch-australian-press_n_3821516.html)
The ABC's Media Watch programme said an analysis of the Daily Telegraph's reporting in the first week of the election campaign showed half of its 80 stories were slanted against the government, with none against the conservative opposition.
Over the next two weeks, it said, 59 stories were against the government, while only four were slanted against the opposition. Just three stories have been slanted in favour of the government.
- Reuters (not hiding behind the SMH's Paywall).

Now I don't mean to single out News Corp even though they certainly take credit for it in the UK and Australia but the truth is an increased adversarial degree of politics sell more media and ergo more advert space. It's in the interest of commercial media outlets to keep arguments going because it increase profits.

I have faith in the unchanging outlook of human nature and that the vast majority of the public are unthinking idiots. If they're told to hate someone from either side of politics, they will; even if they have no idea why.

[Starter]

Amnesty is not a slap in the face to those who follow the correct process. If you follow what I said, you'll see that arbitrary quotas and restrictions that are well below immigration demand create an untenable situation where there is no line as wait times exceed a persons natural lifespan. I mentioned my wife's sister waiting 17 years for a green card if she applied today. In reality she couldn't even apply because my wife is not a citizen, oh we could probably change that in 6 months if we start the process, but my wife hasn't wanted to. She'd rather carry a Mexican passport.

If my wife were a citizen though, we would have had to applied 2 years before we met in order for the green card process to begin. My wife and I have known each other for 15 years, been married 14 and have 3 children. That's a good chunk of a lifetime and entirely too long to wait.

When I look at the history of immigration laws in this country, they are in my opinion almost entirely rooted in racism and exclusion of groups of so-called undesirables. Starting with Chinese exclusion act, then expanded to the Asiatic barred zone act to cover the rest of eastern Asians.

Back in the days of Ellis Island, there were essentially no restrictions other than the aforementioned Chinese and Asians. Your boat passage was your ticket to get into the United States. The only people turned away were anarchists, criminals, the sick, and the crazy. That's fine, you should have immigration control and registration. 99.9% of illegal immigrants I know would have no problem with registration and modest fees and "X" number of years probation before trying for full citizenship. Their problem is that there is no effective line to get into if you are from certain countries.

Starting in the 1920's though, people became upset about our "culture" and started establishing quotas with the emergency quota act of 1921 and the 1924 immigration act. (This is also when illegal immigration started to be a problem)

In 1952, it was fully codified into law. Harry Truman vetoed it, but congress overrode it and it passed. His words I think are fitting:



The problem is arbitrary quotas , by all means register people and do background checks and collect fees and have a probationary period, but get rid of quotas and restrictions.
I think you misunderstand what I meant or perhaps I didn't express it clearly. When I said " Reform the process to expedite citizenship, guest or temp worker access, students, etc.", I meant really bring reform to the process. That would include the unrealistic quotas in terms of both temporary access and citizenship. I'm not sure we should open the floodgates, but there have to be better ways of managing the demand to a realistic level.

Times have changed since the days of Ellis Island. The current population of the country is much, much larger than it was. I am one of those people who believe there are already too many people on the face of the planet. Not suggesting we should kill anyone off, but a little breeding restraint would help (I mean restraint from everyone before someone calls me a racist.). I don't believe a totally open door policy is best for anyone. A real influx of people will only greatly exacerbate the current unemployment situation with the attendant burden on government and other social services. Creating a bigger under class is in no one's best long term interest.

[airshifter]

On and on and on the gaggle goes. Never ceases to amaze me of the absolute blindness shown by so many. To articulate a point in this place is nigh on impossible. Above are three that fall into that category.


How in the world does this Starter character know what illegal immigrants that became legal know about all this, nothing. He and the rest of his minions should tell the room they dislike people south of the border. They fear the vote!!

Alex, don't fall for the I know a lot of Mexicans and I even have friends tripe that is being spewed in your direction.


It's clear that you are unable to communicate at an adult level. I find it rather comical that you are the one frequently whining about the moderators getting involved, when it's clear your sole intention is to be a complete and utter jackass. By all means continue to be a victim for the rest of your life.... it won't bother me in the slightest. And being that every other person here can clearly communicate their view, trying doing that yourself some time to see what the response is. :D







I have faith in the unchanging outlook of human nature and that the vast majority of the public are unthinking idiots. If they're told to hate someone from either side of politics, they will; even if they have no idea why.

I'd say that I'd have to agree with that. This thread was the result of very biased reporting that didn't show the entire picture at all, and it was taken hook, line, and sinker. :) People love to hate based on politics, and love to hate politicians even more in many cases.

In another recent thread I suggested that a media outlet the tells the entire story as much as possible, citing and using only credible sources, would be quite popular today. But some people would prefer not to fact check anything, as it gives them a reason to be angry. I'd say there at least a couple posters on this site that wouldn't know what to do if they had to deal with facts. ;)

[airshifter]

Alex, all good points you've made here and in the post above. My main objection to some of the "make illegals legal" proposals is exactly that it is a direct slap in the face to all those who have gone about the process correctly.

My position is straightforward. Reform the process to expedite citizenship, guest or temp worker access, students, etc. Process all of the people on the wait list first. Then accept new applications. (Government loves a bureaucracy - think of all the new jobs in the agency.) Amnesty for current illegals who go home, whether or not they then apply correctly to come back. Jail time and deportation for those here illegally who stay past the amnesty period - with no possibility of future legal status. Harsh penalties for future illegals.

Works for me. We have caused our own problems within the system, so we need to fix the system and then properly enforce it without exception so people will use the system in place.

[Rudy Tamasz]

There is as much logic in that query as there is in asking if the moon is made of cheese.

It is made of cheese. That's a fact you can't argue with. If you have any doubts, watch "A Grand Day Out" from the Wallace and Gromit series.

[Spafranco]

It is made of cheese. That's a fact you can't argue with. If you have any doubts, watch "A Grand Day Out" from the Wallace and Gromit series.

Is it? What kind? :D

[Bagwan]

Is it? What kind? :D

It's a fine Canadian moose cheese .

[Gregor-y]

That's called ham in the rest of the world. :p

[Jag_Warrior]

I have faith in the unchanging outlook of human nature and that the vast majority of the public are unthinking idiots. If they're told to hate someone from either side of politics, they will; even if they have no idea why.

I wish I could disagree with you here, but I cannot. All that's really required to keep the masses under control now are the same things that were required thousands of years ago: panem et circenses.

Heck, why waste time thinking for yourself when someone else is happy to do it for you? There's a game on this afternoon and we can't waste time using these interweb machines for anything other than scores and rankings.

Yeah, well... this is why we can't have nice things. :(