New R4 Class

[Abarth]

Why not make new R4 class? Cheap start class in 4wd.
New R2T or R3T engine + common 4wd system.

[Mirek]

R4 already exists and it's a tuning of N4.

Anyway such idea is basically used for R5 which is like an up-tuned R3T 4x4.

[Abarth]

For many 200 000 euro is not cheap. Why not a cheaper 4wd class than r5. max 180 hp and 4wd from a 13-1600 ccm engine, and max 50 000 euro with many standard parts.

[Mirek]

We had plenty of discussions about that before. Competitive machinery under current homologation system will always be expensive regardless the rules. "Your" car would be useful only for one make cups probably and that's why I can hardly see some manufacturer interested.

Besides that for what is 180 Hp 1.4 ccm 4x4 car good for? It would bring zero spectacle and it would be probably almost all the time slower than top 2WD cars.

For Your information top R2 cars cost over 60 thousand Euro...

[TyPat107]

The first car I rallied was a Subaru impreza RS that was 4wd, 2.5L naturally aspirated and made about 180bhp~150whp on 91octane and while it was fun from a driver perspective (particularly on flat or downhill roads) Uphill it really was a dog. They can be decently quick in the right hands but to do so means you have to be very very smooth and not very spectacular to watch at that point.

While not quite a "spec class" here in the States, the class for these was called Open LIght and there just aren't many options for a factory built AWD car with under 2600cc engines.

[Mirek]

Exactly, moreover most of the stock AWD are just helper systems for getting out of deep snow or something but no really useful full time systems.

[skarderud]

In norway a couple of years ago they had an Subaru cup. It was a N4 light concept, good thinking and idea! Andreas Mikkelsen was wery fast with that car i remember. The cost was around 50.000 €, but they f...ed it up alittle with some dodgy tiredeals and inside deals on other parts. It ended in angrynes and politics. Sad, the concept was really good.

[noel157]

In norway a couple of years ago they had an Subaru cup. It was a N4 light concept, good thinking and idea! Andreas Mikkelsen was wery fast with that car i remember. The cost was around 50.000 €, but they f...ed it up alittle with some dodgy tiredeals and inside deals on other parts. It ended in angrynes and politics. Sad, the concept was really good.

I remember that, it was during Mikkelsen's time of poverty ( :) ), taught him a lot, hasn't done too bad since.....

[Sulland]

In norway a couple of years ago they had an Subaru cup. It was a N4 light concept, good thinking and idea! Andreas Mikkelsen was wery fast with that car i remember. The cost was around 50.000 €, but they f...ed it up alittle with some dodgy tiredeals and inside deals on other parts. It ended in angrynes and politics. Sad, the concept was really good.

Yes this was a very good cup, but unfortunately it did not last long.

But the R4 category is currently "forgotten" by FIA it seams. N4 has been a cheap option to go 4wd for years, with Subaru and Mitsubishi, but is dying. They tried the kiss of life with R4 upgrades to try to match S2000, but did not succeed, you added cost but not much else.


So the idea of a new and cheap 4wd class is not bad, we need more than one 4wd class in national and international rally, when WRCar is dying, and R5 takes over.
Maybe the cup idea could be used as in Junior WRC, but with a 4wd car, 3 years at the time contracts for the factory.
Or we can do an idea mingling here; How should a new R4 class look like?
- Tech reg
- Max Price

[OldF]

A riddle.

What’s the difference between a 2WD car and a 4WD car?

[skarderud]

I don't know if any manufacturer has any plans one something like sti/evo? That is the first step if anything can be something.
A smaller than impreza-ish car, 1,6 ltr is most easy(?), good but not real good dampers, like a n4 light. As much as posible standardparts, and so on.

[OldF]

What I would like is some kind of regulations for privateers based on let’s say R5 regulations. Private tuners could “homologate” a car with a technical passport which was announce by FIA for the R-GT cars.

The “homologation” could be done with the local ASN to avoid language difficulties. The privateers’ tuners having access to the “R5 homologation regulations” could develop their own parts not copying the original parts by the manufacturers.

This is just my initial though not thinking about any details involved with this issue.

[Mirek]

I share Your opinion.

[Sulland]

Just thinking out load here;
Take a DS3 R3T and add a simple 4wd system that would be a generic one. How much would that add to the 90-100 000 euro pricetag?
Would it end up closer to the R3 or closer to the R5 DS3?

[A FONDO]

The 4wd systems are produced by just a few providers who put them unreally high prices and FIA will never allow something else. If one wants affordable 4wd car there are plenty of second-hand Lancers - cheap, reliable and sometimes able to beat s2000 if drivers are poor.

[Mirek]

Just thinking out load here;
Take a DS3 R3T and add a simple 4wd system that would be a generic one. How much would that add to the 90-100 000 euro pricetag?
Would it end up closer to the R3 or closer to the R5 DS3?

It would be basically an R5. You must take into account that DS3 R3 has torsion beam rear axle which is hardly useful for any kind of 4WD system so it must be replaced by something different and since then You are with the R5 again. Also the original chassis is not built for accommodation of 4WD drivetrain so it must be modified anyway.

[Abarth]

The 4wd systems are produced by just a few providers who put them unreally high prices and FIA will never allow something else. If one wants affordable 4wd car there are plenty of second-hand Lancers - cheap, reliable and sometimes able to beat s2000 if drivers are poor.

So better with tech rules and free provider, that will drop the prices?

is that the same with tires?

[OldF]

The price of the DS3 R3T kit is 63 500 € (tarmac or gravel) and the price of the standard car parts is 5 700 €, total 69 200 €. M-Sport charges about 15 050 € for stripping the standard road car, installing the kit, installing the roll cage a painting the inside of the car white.

69 200 + 15 050 = 84 250 ~ 85 000 €.

The price gap to a R5 should be big enough to make any sense of these kind of cars, maybe 130 000 – 150 000 € for a complete car. Would 45 000 – 65 000 € be enough for the “4WD” modification of the body shell and 4WD drive train?

The front suspension could be as it is. Using the front wishbones, drive shafts, dampers, springs, uprights and wheel hubs also at the rear with a new rear subframe would make logistical parts control easier. No wide body shells, only a S2000 / R5 rear wing to distinguish these cars from R3T cars.

Wouldn’t be a competitor to S2000 or R5 but maybe a more affordable option for privateers to homologate it with a technical passport and maybe more spectacular with less suspension travel jumping all over the stages.

[tommeke_B]

Why make another class when there already isn't enough competition in R3 and S2000/R5/RRC in many countries? Dividing the competitors in even more classes isn't a good thing imho...

[Mirek]

I don't think that there would be any significant interest in 4WD cars unable of fighting for overall glory even in national championships (unless those are really weak). Even the interest in Gr.N cars is decreasing (in some asphalt countries they disappeared completely). A car which costs 3/4 of R5 but is non-competitive against it is useless. When the S2000 were on their top there were already plenty of cheap cars available (such as old Abarths, Corollas, Polos, even modern but slow Protons were reasonably cheaper than the best machinery but there was almost nobody willing to buy them. I know about one quite good Punto S2000 which was not sold even for 70 thousand Euro in time when new top S2000 cost 300 thousand. Nobody was interested in that car even for rent when it was offered to several very good drivers for half of normal price S2000 prices.

[OldF]

Kind of responses I expected. There are lot of classes already and one 4WD class below the current S2000/RRC/R5 would make it more confusing.

I had still to try with something because, as I said earlier, I would like to have a 4WD regulations or class or whatever for privateers developing their own 4WD cars.

And for privateers just driving for fun and don’t being interesting in any class wins etc.

[A FONDO]

Well there's a group "X" for that isn't it?

[Mirek]

I had still to try with something because, as I said earlier, I would like to have a 4WD regulations or class or whatever for privateers developing their own 4WD cars.You don't need to invent any new classes for that just get rid of homologations in existing ones.
And for privateers just driving for fun and don’t being interesting in any class wins etc.Obviously there is too few of them to create business for carmakers. Anyway those can use for example low-tuned Gr.N cars which are very cheap. The rules don't say Your car must use all possible upgrades from series. Everybody can drive pretty stock car if he likes but there is not much of those.

[Sulland]

IMO there is a missing link in the R Class system.

R1-R3 is ok as is.
R4 is dying and was ment as a gapfiller, and trying to get N4+ to match S2000. Did not work!
R5 will in a few years take over from WRCar.

So R4 needs to be rethought.
If the answer should be a detuned R5 or a MaxiRally or XRC type car buildt by private teams, tuners and not manufacturers remains to be seen.

but in my humble opinion we need two 4wd classes. One cheaper than the other for people to afford them in todays economic climate.

if we follow the thinking behind MaxiRally and XRC they take a current body, add a bulletproof engine and drivetrain from an existing car and let teams and tuners do the work. Could be a way of thinking for R4. There are a lot of good tuners that wuld love to have a go!

Up here where the entire championships are run on loose surface, drivers like to habe 4wd, but we are a bit odd in that respect....

[vino_93]

I don't think that there would be any significant interest in 4WD cars unable of fighting for overall glory even in national championships (unless those are really weak). Even the interest in Gr.N cars is decreasing (in some asphalt countries they disappeared completely). A car which costs 3/4 of R5 but is non-competitive against it is useless. When the S2000 were on their top there were already plenty of cheap cars available (such as old Abarths, Corollas, Polos, even modern but slow Protons were reasonably cheaper than the best machinery but there was almost nobody willing to buy them. I know about one quite good Punto S2000 which was not sold even for 70 thousand Euro in time when new top S2000 cost 300 thousand. Nobody was interested in that car even for rent when it was offered to several very good drivers for half of normal price S2000 prices.

don't forget that a lot of countries are still using 4WD cars. We can see some in Europe - as in Eastern or Nordic countries, but Asia, America, Africa and New Zealand are - more or less all- fighting with N4 or some kind of cars close to this regulation.

S2000 has difficulties to travel the world. Same thing about R3, because there isn't some many manufacturers involved in this business... and these cars are to slow to be interesting to fight for title (or you have to do as Australia with a 2WD championship).
Now, more and more countries from other continent are developping new regulations for their own 4WD cars, as New Zealand, Argentina, etc ... and other are using all N4.

What will be the development of R5 ? For the moment we still don't know. If it stays in Europe due to a limited numbers of cars, we will quickly see the same story as S2000 in the rest of the world. And other countries championships will have no more FIA homologated cars ... - and by this way, small possibility of strong field of contenders in future FIA events there.

Don't forget that FIA has to made the rules from all the world, not only countries from Europe :)

[OldF]

Why make another class when there already isn't enough competition in R3 and S2000/R5/RRC in many countries? Dividing the competitors in even more classes isn't a good thing imho...


You don't need to invent any new classes for that just get rid of homologations in existing ones.

I didn’t remember this in first place. No need for a new class. The type of a car I was describing would fit in class 3, current N4. I didn’t mention it in my post and I can’t expect you, Mirek & tommeke, to be mind readers (or are you? ;) ) but that was I had in my mind although the class description says that it’s a “Group N car over 2000cc (current N4)”. And as vino_93 said in his post, many countries still use N4 (R4?) in their championships and some diversity could be welcome.


My post was just an example how a private made “N4” car could be made, even if it wouldn’t have any interest of any manufacturer and as I said: “….a more affordable option for privateers to homologate it with a technical passport” and that would also include cars, as I said in my previous post, a car similar to a R5 car. Buy a R3T and convert it to a 4WD car with standard parts (maybe with a H-pattern gearbox from an EVO) or parts developed by yourself with your own staff or develop a R5 car with your own developed parts.

At least here in Finland, as I see it, the local ASN is trying to prevent the spread of the more expensive S2000 / R5 cars based on, as I assume feedback from drivers and teams to have cost saving, which is of course a valid point, and allowing a bigger restrictor for R4 cars and even bigger for N4 cars to have the more affordable N4/R4 cars being more competitive on our fast flowing stages against those mentioned above.

Btw, does anybody know the top speed of R5 cars?


Nobody was interested in that car even for rent when it was offered to several very good drivers for half of normal price S2000 prices.

Maybe that was the mistake. Should have been offered to a bad drivers with a wallet thick enough to afford it but not thick enough to get a better car. :)

[tommeke_B]

Btw, does anybody know the top speed of R5 cars?


I think it's pretty much same as S2000 (thanks to 5-speed box), probably around 180-185 kph.

[OldF]

but in my humble opinion we need two 4wd classes. One cheaper than the other for people to afford them in todays economic climate.

At the moment we have three different 4WD classes: WRC, S2000 NA / R4 / RRC / R5 and N4.


if we follow the thinking behind MaxiRally and XRC they take a current body, add a bulletproof engine and drivetrain from an existing car and let teams and tuners do the work

Sorry, but I don’t like the idea of having a bodyshell and then putting in that whatever stuff from anywhere and especially any engine. A drivetrain I could accept. For me the engine of a car is the car’s soul or heart or whatever it could be called. Imo it should be at least from the same make and not any old fashion engine like any 2 – 3 litre NA engines although those have nice sounds.


There are a lot of good tuners that wuld love to have a go!

I agree with that. I recall an old article series from “Vauhdin Maailma” about a team building an original from Italy acquired N-group Alfa-Romeo 147 circuit car. In those days there was a “Sport 2000” class that allowed little more freedom compared to group N regulations (if I’m remember correctly). Anyway the cylinder head was taken to a tuner to modify the intake / exhaust ducts (sorry, I don’t know was been allowed to be modified) and was put in flow bench to see how much power it would produce. The outcome from the flow bench test was promising but not the final outcome from the engine dyno testing. But that’s is another story involving exhaust development etc.

An other issue I recall was with the dampers. They used Koni dampers but couldn’t find from their list any suitable, so Koni made them a customer developed dampers. Could this work nowadays or was is just a “sponsor act” from Koni.

Any Finnish members knowing this story, or anyone else knowing about details, please correct me if I’m was writing crap but this is how I recall it. If not, I’ve to browse true my old magazines and find the article.