2nd Red Bull seat

[Knock-on]

As its the most desired drive for 2014, I thought it deserved a thread to itself.

My thinking is that it's between Vergne and Kimi. The Finn has already said that if he does, it would be his last move in F1 and Jean is forcing himself into the equation.

Who else and why?

[Koz]

It can't be anyone else. It will be Kimi.

No one else has a value comparable that of Kimi for Red Bull, not even Vettel. One could say Kimi is the embodiment of Red Bull marketing.

I've got the perfect ad right here.
Picture this:
Kimi is sleeping.
Someone tries to wake him, but he keeps falling asleep.
Then someone gives him some Red Bull.
Immediately, we see him on a Red Bull snowmobile ploughing through the snow, making a huge jump through the air. [Insert epic orchestral music here]
As he lands, he lands on Red Bull motorcoss bike and disappears over a crest. Reappears in his Red Bull Citroen, through some twistie.
And in the end Kimi in his Red Bull charging up Eau Rouge overtaking someone, probably Alonso (during a practice session :p ).

(C) This is copyright of Mr Koz June 2013. All rights reserved.


Now time for my Red Bull.

[tfp]

The Hulk....

[TheFamousEccles]

Ricciardo for mine. He regularly out qualifies JEV, and also often leads him on the road. He's absolutely ready to step up, it would be a worthwhile reward for much hard work and dedication.

Though in reality (huh?) DR or JEV would do the seat justice, there's very little between them in ability and dedication, but for me DR has the nod.

(Disclaimer: I am Australian and therefore biased. Anything I say cannot be taken seriously because I live on the same continent as DR so I must be besties with the lad and am being paid to spruik his case :p )

[Rollo]

I'm thinking that it will end up being either Vergne or Ricciardo because Horner's comments prior to Q1 suggest that snaring Kimi might be a difficult ask. I would wager that Red Bull would pick the winner based on results:

2012 - Vergne 16 v Ricciardo 10
2013* - Vergne 13* v Ricciardo 7*

On the strength of those numbers, Vergne has the seat.

[A FONDO]

Kimi is too old and boring.

I think Sutil and Hulkenberg deserve the seat.

[henners88]

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those stories that just runs and runs. Horner will tell the media they are not thinking about Marks replacement just yet, and Kimi will be hassled in every interview he has where he'll deny even being approached.

It could be Kimi, Hulk, Di Resta etc etc. My guess is we'll find out in October. :)

[zako85]

One important part of the equation is that Kimi Raikkonen has to know something about Lotus that none of the outsiders know. There always exists a chance that Lotus can implode at any moment. We know the team is on a shaky financial background. Also the performance of Lotus cars has been slipping since the beginning of the year. Then there are the unknown issues that only insiders know. If Raikkonen thinks that Lotus may be in trouble for the next year, this may increase the chases of him signing up with Red Bull for 2014.

However, if Raikkonen doesn't sign up for Red Bull, personally I would love to see di Rest, Hulkenberg, or Sutil in number 2 RedBull next year.

[janneppi]

I have a feeling this is going to be one of those stories that just runs and runs. Horner will tell the media they are not thinking about Marks replacement just yet, and Kimi will be hassled in every interview he has where he'll deny even being approached.


The smartest thing anyone who F1 can do is not open any news links about this until Red Bull announces their driver line-up, or when Lotus announces their line-up.

Until then no one is allowed to say anything useful and if the general public doesn't show interest in gossip, then journalist wouldn't have as much pressure to ask the same stupid questions at every press meeting.
Not going to happen, but one could only hope. ;)

[Zico]

From a marketing perspective Kimi would be ideal and I would love to see it happen to find out just how good Vettel really is... but Kimi is a number one driver and would not accept the situation when any preferential treatment or team orders favoured Seb.
I think Ricciardo or Vergne would be the safest option. We all know how the vast majority of No1 driver team mate pairings in previous years have turned out.

[Robinho]

I think Ricciardo has been doing a decent job of putting himself in the frame so far this season, and now the seat is up for grabs he's stuck it on the 3rd row. Not sure Kimi would be the best long term option, and with Vettel sticking for a few years, I'd take a chance on young Daniel

[Ranger]

So long as they have the best car, if Red Bull have the ability to (and eventually) pick and choose former World Champions, what's the point of even having Toro Rosso at all?

At the moment Toro Rosso is just a graveyard for the F1 career of young and talented drivers.

[dj_bytedisaster]

So long as they have the best car, if Red Bull have the ability to (and eventually) pick and choose former World Champions, what's the point of even having Toro Rosso at all?

At the moment Toro Rosso is just a graveyard for the F1 career of young and talented drivers.

Who says that a Toro Rosso driver has to move on to Red Bull? There are 9 other teams, who could sign them. If I was Eric Boullier I would have a long hard look at Vergne, compare his driving to that of Grosjean and do the logical thing.

The problem here is the Red Bull junior program. Nothing much has come out of it since Vettel. Vergne and Riciardo are solid dependable drivers, but that's it. People forget that Vergne's sixth position in Canada means, he's only the second person in over 7 years, who's managed that. That sounds all jolly well, but then you need to consider that Vettel put the TR on 5th and 4th positions more than once and then there's the Monza win of 2008. Of course someone will come with the "but it was a Newey design" shtick, but it was a one-year old Newey design that in its first year achieved less points than what Vettel pumped out in it, when it was starting to become obsolete.

I don't see JEV and DR as the logical options. Hulk only has a one-year contract at Sauber and I wouldn't count out Sutil. His conditional discharge will become absolute sometimes this year and that means the glassing incident is water under the bridge.

Kimi seems like the obvious choice and Seb even seems to welcome such a move, but I cannot see such a move working. If you have two WDC's in the team you might be a shoe-in for the constructors title, but they would take points of each other and in the end might hand the WDC title to a third-party, like Mansell/Piquet did in 1987.

[zako85]

So long as they have the best car, if Red Bull have the ability to (and eventually) pick and choose former World Champions, what's the point of even having Toro Rosso at all?


Two more cars with Red Bull stickers.

[zako85]

Of course someone will come with the "but it was a Newey design" shtick, but it was a one-year old Newey design that in its first year achieved less points than what Vettel pumped out in it, when it was starting to become obsolete.

It was a Newey designed car, but back then Red Bull didn't mean much to begin with. It was just a solid mid-field team. RedBull finished fifth in WDC in 2007, behind Williams-Toyota, and it could have been sixth place if McLaren wasn't disqualified.

[steveaki13]

I think Ricciardo has a chance to enhance his reputation today. I mean 5th on the grid, with questions over Mercedes. An outside chance of a podium which would be amazing for him.

[DexDexter]

As its the most desired drive for 2014, I thought it deserved a thread to itself.

My thinking is that it's between Vergne and Kimi. The Finn has already said that if he does, it would be his last move in F1 and Jean is forcing himself into the equation.

Who else and why?

Why on earth should they give it to Vergne? He's had a couple of good races and that's it. Very inconsistent. Ricciardo would be my choice if it came down to the Toro Rosso boys. He's got more experience and IMO he's been generally the more impressive of the two.


From a marketing perspective Kimi would be ideal and I would love to see it happen to find out just how good Vettel really is... but Kimi is a number one driver and would not accept the situation when any preferential treatment or team orders favoured Seb.
I think Ricciardo or Vergne would be the safest option. We all know how the vast majority of No1 driver team mate pairings in previous years have turned out.

All Kimi needs is a fast car and assurances from Mateschitz and Horner that he is allowed to win if he's quick enough. He never asked preferential treatment at Ferrari, he really doesn't care.

[DexDexter]

Kimi is too old and boring.

I think Sutil and Hulkenberg deserve the seat.

at 33? The most popular driver on the grid with Alonso.

[odykas]

Vettel

[Ari]

Vergne is probably quicker in a shoot out, but Ricciardo has a much better racing brain and can bring the car home. In my opinion, Ricciardo would make more sense than Vergne. That said, it's so damn close between the two of them. Who knew that 2 years ago when they first sat in the STR we'd still be discussing them as 50/50 come Silverstone '13! Says a lot of about the character and sense of both drivers. I truly want to see them both land a decent seat next year.

Kimi is the obvious one, if he wants the RBR seat they would need to think about it. But, they don't want to do another Lewis/Alonso of 2007... and I'm sure this will cross their minds. Further, placing an STR driver will help justify their junior teams existence. I would think that would be the way to go. If year one at RBR you would expect either of the STR boys to be able to finish 3-6 with no problems, and that's enough to stack WCC points considering the might of Vettel.

Any 3 of them would be a good shot, I'd take Ricciardo just because of his racing brain, clean lines and consistency.

[driveace]

But would Kimi obey team orders ?I think NOT!

[J4MIE]

But would Kimi obey team orders ?I think NOT!

No different to Vettel then?

[RedBullian1]

No different to Vettel then?

I don't think they'll talk to him since he knows what he's doing

[keysersoze]

Vergne is probably quicker in a shoot out, but Ricciardo has a much better racing brain and can bring the car home.

The stats indicate the opposite. Ricciardo is winning the qualifying shootout by a significant margin, yet JEV has scored more points, last season as well as this season (to date).

[Mia 01]

As we can see Mercedes is gaining on RBR at the moment, they got two reasonably good drivers and can with a bit of luck take the WCC this year. I think RBR wants the WCC. In the same car at race day, Kimi is not slower than Seb.

[steveaki13]

Take Mercedes season by season and its made real progress to now be 2nd in the championship.

So I think Red Bull needs to take on a driver who can win races and help the team next year. They cant allow any driver to take half a season to settle in.

[jens]

Räikkönen seems to be plan A for Red Bull. Plan B is a Toro Rosso driver.
What is plan A for Räikkönen - Lotus or RBR? He could be leaning towards RBR. If that is the case, we just need to wait for the official announcement... :)

The only aspect RBR may be pondering about Kimi's signing is the long-term future. Because Vettel could potentially leave after 2015 (after having recently signed a new one-year extension) and in 2016 Räikkönen would be 36 years old already. So RBR would need a new, young and upcoming driver soon anyway depending on the long-term motivation of Vettel to drive for RBR.

I think Red Bull feels that hiring Räikkönen for 2014 would be good for short-term future and WCC - proven driver, who will get you lots of points. But RBR may also feel that they can't let some of their youngsters go as easily like the let Alguersuari. Which means that they need to keep grooming say Ricciardo, avoid him getting snapped up by other teams, so he would be a good and consistent driver by 2016 to join the team.

Depending on whether Kimi wants to carry on in his mid-to-late 30's, they may actually need two drivers... Of course, by 2015-16 there may be more quality-drivers on the market, like Hamilton and Rosberg, so they may not need to worry too much.

[webberf1]

Ricciardo has given Vergne a smashing in quali in the last couple of races. The only reason Vergne seems to come back in the races a little is because he never makes it into Q3 so he has a fresher set of softs.

[andyone]

they should put a dislike button on forums as well. we need that

[zako85]

Räikkönen seems to be plan A for Red Bull. Plan B is a Toro Rosso driver.

But does Toro Rosso have enough money to hire Raikkonen? :)

[Knock-on]

Well, Lotus are fighting tooth and nail to hold onto Kimi but can't see how they can. They have eventually paid his wages, albeit 6 months late, in a bid to resign him.

Would you stay with them? :rolleyes:

Ricciardo looks like the second candidate now but surely Red Bull will prefer the Finn. I know I would and give Daniel another year or two to improve and prove his ability before firing him into the hottest seat in F1.

[henners88]

The BBC's head story in the F1 section is the attempted retention of Kimi's services too.

BBC Sport - Kimi Raikkonen: Lotus move to convince driver not to join Red Bull (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23238016)

If I were Kimi I would try and weigh up whether Lotus are moving forward in terms of development in comparison with a team who have had the best car for the past 4 or so years. Its Vettel's back yard, but I think Kimi is the type of character who would stay out of the politics and just try and do his best. He would be a tougher team mate than Vettel has ever faced to this date and feel we could see a strong team mate battle of Kimi decides to join. It could bring fireworks and would be brilliant to watch.

[Knock-on]

Interesting. I never really look at the commercial side of sponsorship but Total are getting good value at 5M for Romain and the amount of exposure they get.

[Mark]

Why would Kimi move from being No.1 at Lotus to the No.2 at Red Bull? It makes no sense.

[henners88]

If you ask Red Bull they will say there is no number one driver policy in place. Webber has been allowed to win and out qualify Vettel even if the emotional support of the team hasn't always gone his way. I can't imagine Kimi moving to Red Bull to be number two and the team know that full well. If they make a move for him, they know they will have to give him equal status. They won't sign Kimi under false pretences if they can't deliver a car capable of giving him a championship shot on equal terms to Seb. Kimi's management are not daft either.

[Knock-on]

And, chances are that Lotus are on a downward spiral. I see them slipping down the table next year.

[henners88]

And, chances are that Lotus are on a downward spiral. I see them slipping down the table next year.
They've been struggling for funding for the past 12 months which is widely known. I hadn't realised until today they couldn't afford to pay their drivers. It doesn't give the impression they have the money to invest long term. I would think right now they are Kimi's last option.

[zako85]

No matter what happens, I hope Lotus keeps Grosjean around. Unlike some other F1 fans, I have a faith in Grosjean. He is fast and can keep up with Kimi in the race. He may have caused some horrific collisions like year, but he seems like a nice fellow who can learn from his mistakes and should improve with more experience. We all have heard by now "Kimi is faster than you" order and similar. One important factor is that he has to carry the weight of racing in the same team with Kimi. I think that can cause a lot of pressure on Romain. There is a good chance Romain could perform better without Raikkonen in the same team.

[zako85]

If I were Kimi I would try and weigh up whether Lotus are moving forward in terms of development in comparison with a team who have had the best car for the past 4 or so years.

That's what I am thinking too. Forget about ALL of the discussions on this forum or elsewhere. The real factor in Kimi's decision is the insider information about Lotus that he certainly has. The stuff we don't know. You know, something like if his salary is being delayed by half year and key people are seen interviewing with other teams and Boullier hides under a desk every time the landlord knocks on a door, then maybe it's the time to go, even if that means that your new shiny front wing may be installed on Vettel's car after he crashes it in practice.

[Whyzars]

If Kimi was to go Red Bull, and if his car doesn't get off the line in the first race, this board will raise a collective eyebrow. It will take Red Bull a couple of season's to show that they really do treat their driver's equally.

I actually think that Red Bull will have trouble convincing a new driver that they aren't the number 2 no matter what the team says. Mark Webber is leaving a 3 pounder that will stink for a bit.

Far better for Red Bull to go with Ricciardo or Vergne and keep the Kimi option open on RB terms and not Kimi's.

My money will be on Ricciardo.

[airshifter]

If Kimi was to go Red Bull, and if his car doesn't get off the line in the first race, this board will raise a collective eyebrow. It will take Red Bull a couple of season's to show that they really do treat their driver's equally.

I actually think that Red Bull will have trouble convincing a new driver that they aren't the number 2 no matter what the team says. Mark Webber is leaving a 3 pounder that will stink for a bit.

Far better for Red Bull to go with Ricciardo or Vergne and keep the Kimi option open on RB terms and not Kimi's.

My money will be on Ricciardo.

I agree. I don't think Vettel would want Kimi on the team really, and he would fight to retain #1 status. RB have made it clear that when Seb doesn't like team orders he can ignore them and get away with it.

If I was Kimi I would want an iron clad contract before even thinking about going to RB.

[henners88]

I agree. I don't think Vettel would want Kimi on the team really, and he would fight to retain #1 status. RB have made it clear that when Seb doesn't like team orders he can ignore them and get away with it.

If I was Kimi I would want an iron clad contract before even thinking about going to RB.
Depends whether Vettel is in a position to make the decision ultimately. Kimi is good for the brand and is very capable of winning a wdc too. He's not known for causing trouble and is an all out racer, so if its a problem, it's a challenge for Seb and his side of the garage. Red bull have only really had a headache in the past because they've had two very vocal drivers, Kimi tends to be blunt and prefers the leave the politics out of it.

[jens]

To be honest, Vettel and Räikkönen are friends and in some way similar characters, so I do not see many problems. I'll go on a limb and say there will be fewer problems than between Vettel and Webber. I think if Vettel had the option to choose between Kimi and Mark, he would take Kimi as his team-mate. However, in the context of next year he would hardly have a problem with Ricciardo either.

I read Kimi's comment somewhere about team orders - he follows them if they make sense and doesn't follow if they do not make sense. :p : I think Vettel has a similar philosophy. If drivers (rivals, or even in the same team) understand each other, there will be less problems. And Kimi and Seb are close enough to understand each other - including the attitude towards racing and the point of team orders! You can hardly complain about a rival if you share the same thoughts! Problems arise if rivals have a different character/attitude/mindset - Lewis/Fernando or Alain/Ayrton. Or even Mark/Sebastian.


And, chances are that Lotus are on a downward spiral. I see them slipping down the table next year.

Yes, the future of Lotus is indeed the critical point. For a long time there have been rumours about Lotus' financial issues. Of course they have been doing well, but you are left wondering whether one day something has got to give. Sauber also had a very strong season in 2012, but their budget was never secure and look at what has happened to them now. Also as we have rule changes next year you may need a stronger financial might to adapt well to all those changes instead of just refining the car when the regulations are stable.

[DexDexter]

Well, Lotus are fighting tooth and nail to hold onto Kimi but can't see how they can. They have eventually paid his wages, albeit 6 months late, in a bid to resign him.

Would you stay with them? :rolleyes:

Ricciardo looks like the second candidate now but surely Red Bull will prefer the Finn. I know I would and give Daniel another year or two to improve and prove his ability before firing him into the hottest seat in F1.

They don't have the money to pay him, they lost their designer and there are big rules changes next year. I'd say it's fairly likely that Lotus aren't as competitive next year as they are now. So I think Kimi's going to go to Red Bull, and Ricciardo will stay at Toro Rosso, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for him since he is still very young.

[airshifter]

They don't have the money to pay him, they lost their designer and there are big rules changes next year. I'd say it's fairly likely that Lotus aren't as competitive next year as they are now. So I think Kimi's going to go to Red Bull, and Ricciardo will stay at Toro Rosso, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for him since he is still very young.

You may well be right. But with the rules changes I don't know if RB is a guarantee to be in the best car either, rules changes sometimes shake up the field, and these are major changes this time.

I'm not sure what I would do in Kimi's situation. I don't buy into the conspiracy theories concerning Webber's treatment on the team, but it is at least apparent that Seb gets the top notch people and the second driver team isn't as strong. And I can see Sebastian crying big tears if Kimi comes to the team and bests him.

[zako85]

Filling Webber's seat at RedBull is indeed a hard job. On one hand, you want someone who can collect as many points as possible for the WCC competition. On the other hand, this driver can't be fast enough to challenge Vettel, RBR's golden boy, on regular basis. Webber was a fine driver for this job.

[vhatever]

Filling Webber's seat at RedBull is indeed a hard job. On one hand, you want someone who can collect as many points as possible for the WCC competition. On the other hand, this driver can't be fast enough to challenge Vettel, RBR's golden boy, on regular basis. Webber was a fine driver for this job.


bzzt. Wrong. RBR is really flying into the unknown, so to speak, and they surely are going to want the best two pilots available. People tend to forget that by picking up kimi as a driver, they are losing him as a competitor, which makes their path to both a WDC and WCC all the more easy. RBR isn't spending much time worrying about team orders, number 1 drivers, and other such things. it's all about maximizing potential and opportunities at this point.

[SGWilko]

bzzt. Wrong. RBR is really flying into the unknown, so to speak, and they surely are going to want the best two pilots available. People tend to forget that by picking up kimi as a driver, they are losing him as a competitor, which makes their path to both a WDC and WCC all the more easy. RBR isn't spending much time worrying about team orders, number 1 drivers, and other such things. it's all about maximizing potential and opportunities at this point.

Ding-a-ling-a-ling. Kimi wont sign with Red Bull unless there is a clear stipulation of equal status. The ability to provide that depends upon Seb's contract and how keen RB are to keep Seb. While hiring Kimi may take him away as an opponent, but what if we have another LH/FA scenario? CH is a known weak team principal......

[vhatever]

Ding-a-ling-a-ling. Kimi wont sign with Red Bull unless there is a clear stipulation of equal status. The ability to provide that depends upon Seb's contract and how keen RB are to keep Seb. While hiring Kimi may take him away as an opponent, but what if we have another LH/FA scenario? CH is a known weak team principal......



Two different cars are inherently unequal. These ridiculous claims of "equality clauses" are pure fantasy. CH doesn;t need to be strong, as neither vettel nor kimi are head cases ala Hmaliton/Montoya.

[SGWilko]

Two different cars are inherently unequal.

Especially when you start wing swapping.......

[vhatever]

Especially when you start wing swapping.......

Did you just say you don't listen to the british media?

You do know that Webber said he felt the new wing did not improve his performance at all, while vettel said he thought it improved his. Hence they gave it to Vettel. This was the discussion at the team meeting when they were talking about whther they were going to use the new wing at all.

[SGWilko]

Did you just say you don't listen to the british media?

You do know that Webber said he felt the new wing did not improve his performance at all, while vettel said he thought it improved his. Hence they gave it to Vettel. This was the discussion at the team meeting when they were talking about whther they were going to use the new wing at all.

Ah, but that is not the point, is it. There is a principle involved. I did not need to read a single rag to see for myself what the cameras showed.

[vhatever]

Ah, but that is not the point, is it. There is a principle involved. I did not need to read a single rag to see for myself what the cameras showed.


So if webber actually wanted the old wing, you'd say the team were shortchanging him. Because your eyes tell you so.

Too bad my nose smells you so.

[SGWilko]

So if webber actually wanted the old wing, you'd say the team were shortchanging him. Because your eyes tell you so.

Too bad my nose smells you so.

They were charging him for the wing too? That's just crook.

[markabilly]

Ding-a-ling-a-ling. Kimi wont sign with Red Bull unless there is a clear stipulation of equal status. The ability to provide that depends upon Seb's contract and how keen RB are to keep Seb. While hiring Kimi may take him away as an opponent, but what if we have another LH/FA scenario? CH is a known weak team principal......

It will not matter about the contract, or team orders like kimi, multi-21 as Kimi will say as he said last year on the radio to the crew, shut up, I know what I am doing

[jens]

I don't know if I should call it paranoia or maybe that is a strong word. But certainly regarding #1 and #2 roles there is a lot of overthinking and concerns. Bottom line is that ideally teams would like to have both cars running as well as possible. Because competition is very tight. We have seen if you get a setup slightly wrong or are slightly off-pace, you can easily not even get into Q3 even if you are in a top team. So you always need to give your best to be at the top. There is no room for sabotage or taking things easily, be it either first or second driver. Because if you do that, you would not only be behind your team-mate, but behind the rest of the competition as well.

But then we have circumstances. While team would like to have both cars up there, sometimes they have to make a compromise. Because due to situation, regulations or resources "equality" is not possible.

Remember back in the day there was a third car, called spare car. And it was set up for the #1 driver. So due to rules and regulations there was inequality! You couldn't do anything about it, just adapt. You had to choose one driver, for who you would prepare that spare car if it was needed in the race.

Or for example if the car development is very fast and you just can't prepare parts for both cars on time. Again you have to make a compromise. But you are certain you want to run this latest development, because you are sure it gives a performance boost - even if it is run only on one car. Still better than none! This can more often happen to lesser funded teams though that they struggle to prepare both cars ideally well.

Then we have personnel and race teams. They may not all have equal qualities, so you have to choose, which people to give which drivers.

Then you have strategy. You have both cars at the front and you have to cover someone, who tries to undercut you in the pitstops. Again you are forced to favour one guy.

These are the situations you cannot help and you have to favour, which makes F1 fans on forums overreact. And let's be honest - if you have to make an uncomfortable decision, you are hardly going to disadvantage your triple or quadruple world champion, especially if he happens to spearhead your title campain again. Think yourself in the shoes of a team principal. Not all situations are ideal, sometimes you have to compromise. And if you are forced to do it, who would you favour? Of course the lead driver.

[Whyzars]

It will not matter about the contract, or team orders like kimi, multi-21 as Kimi will say as he said last year on the radio to the crew, shut up, I know what I am doing

That sort of driving assumes there is only one driver but modern F1 has a garage full of drivers and probably the same again back at the factory. At some point a brilliant individual decision will compromise the team. Having 2 diva's might bring more trouble then its worth.

I would be no good as a team manager. The first time a driver told me to "shut up" I would remotely set his fuel map to "city". :D

Team orders are not requests.

[Mia 01]

If Kimi choose to drive for them, it will soon be his team.

[Sage-sg]

Would Kimi and Seb in Red Bull? I Don't know, but it would very interesting see it!

[zako85]

Would Kimi and Seb in Red Bull? I Don't know, but it would very interesting see it!

Keg stands I suppose.

[vhatever]

This Sainz kid looked pretty good. Nearly identical time to Riccairdo in the STR. Of course we don't really know what the fuel/setup/etc. on the cars were, and let's be frank, there is zero chance Sainz would get the seat... right? Funny thing is whenever I see his name I can't get that Ines Sainz chick out of my head. I guess that's not the end of the world.

[donKey jote]

44ms behind Ricciardo in the STR, and fourth fastest overall in the RB, .6 behind Vettel :up:

Go Carlitos ! http://www.pic4ever.com/images/Bananeyessss.gif

[Koz]

Funny thing is whenever I see his name I can't get that Ines Sainz chick out of my head. I guess that's not the end of the world.

At least it isn't his father stuck in your head!

[Garry Walker]

Kimi is too old and boring.

I think Sutil and Hulkenberg deserve the seat.
The Slasher deserve a kick in the butt and straight out of F1.


Why would Kimi move from being No.1 at Lotus to the No.2 at Red Bull? It makes no sense.
Because Red Bull is the best team with the best car since 2009, has far more money than Lotus (who is financially in a difficult situation) and has provided its drivers (well one of them at least) with far better car than Lotus. Lotus is not a car one can win titles in, whereas a monkey could win a title in the Red Bull.

[A FONDO]

Who is tje "slasher"?

[prpr]

For what its worth, here is the list of fastest times of the Red Bull and Toro Rosso drivers over the three days of the Silverstone test (final figure is difference to fastest time of day):
Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 1m32.894s +0
Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso 1m32.972s +0
Carlos Sainz Jr. Toro Rosso 1m33.016s +0.044s
Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull 1m33.187s +0.215s
Carlos Sainz Jr Red Bull 1m33.546s +0.652s
Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso 1m33.647s +0.753s
Antonio Felix da Costa Red Bull 1m33.821s +0.219s
Johnny Cecotto Toro Rosso 1m34.193s +0.591s
Daniil Kvyat Toro Rosso 1m35.281s +2.387s

Notwithstanding that the times may have been set with different fuel loads etc., it does not look good for JEV to have been beaten by Sainz in a Toro Rosso. Also, the fact that both Ricciardo and Sainz were faster in the Toro Rossos than the Red Bulls suggests that Red Bull wanted them to do well, but not too well - perhaps to justify picking Raikkonen for 2014???

[dj_bytedisaster]

Who is tje "slasher"?

That's Gary's codeword for Sutil. With him unable to spell Sutil and Vettel, he has to revert to code words. You will quickly notice that Garry doesn't really mean to take part in the debate. He merely seeks reasons to publish hateful posts about drivers he hates. Sutil and Vettel are obviously among them. Just disregard his drivel ;)

[steveaki13]

That's Gary's codeword for Sutil. With him unable to spell Sutil and Vettel, he has to revert to code words. You will quickly notice that Garry doesn't really mean to take part in the debate. He merely seeks reasons to publish hateful posts about drivers he hates. Sutil and Vettel are obviously among them. Just disregard his drivel ;)

I call him "Slash" occasionally when chatting to a certain Doc.

Only bit of fun old bean.

[SGWilko]

That's Gary's codeword for Sutil. With him unable to spell Sutil and Vettel, he has to revert to code words. You will quickly notice that Garry doesn't really mean to take part in the debate. He merely seeks reasons to publish hateful posts about drivers he hates. Sutil and Vettel are obviously among them. Just disregard his drivel ;)

I feal kwite shore Garry can spel......... As four mi, I kan manige Sutil and Vettel, its just al the rest I strugal with.....

[zako85]

Reports say Horner narrows choice to Raikkonen and Ricciardo.

[WUff1]

In Austria newspapers write Ricciardo got the seat.

[Koz]

Would anyone be deterred by the fact that Webber has KERS failure every second race?

Surely this is must be sabotage or gross incompetence on Webbers side of the garage?

[Sage-sg]

Would anyone be deterred by the fact that Webber has KERS failure every second race?

Surely this is must be sabotage or gross incompetence on Webbers side of the garage?

I think that Red Bull don't like Webber, and they are trying to show that Webber is very bad driver. I'm happy what Webber leave Red Bull. He will be better without them.

[airshifter]

Would anyone be deterred by the fact that Webber has KERS failure every second race?

Surely this is must be sabotage or gross incompetence on Webbers side of the garage?

I would hope that Kimi would be very cautious in considering the position if it is offered to him. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I can't help but think that such incompetence would not be tolerated if RB really cared about the #2 driver. Webber looked like he was ready to walk away today, and I can't see him regretting his decision.

[Garry Walker]

That's Gary's codeword for Sutil. With him unable to spell Sutil and Vettel, he has to revert to code words. You will quickly notice that Garry doesn't really mean to take part in the debate. He merely seeks reasons to publish hateful posts about drivers he hates. Sutil and Vettel are obviously among them. Just disregard his drivel ;)
It is funny that you say I am unable to spell certain names, when you are unable to spell "Garry" correctly. It is not that difficult, even someone like you should manage it well :)


I would hope that Kimi would be very cautious in considering the position if it is offered to him. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I can't help but think that such incompetence would not be tolerated if RB really cared about the #2 driver. Webber looked like he was ready to walk away today, and I can't see him regretting his decision.

While RB is a much better team in every aspect compared to Lotus, the truth is also that Kimi would be given nr.2 treatment there at once. Anyone thinking RB would treat him equally with their "precious" as long as scum like Helmut Marko is there, is deluded.

Actually I think that RB will probably hire Ricciardo, because he is obviously not a top level driver.

[veeten]

after today's events, we can be assured that Ricciardo will be chosen as the new #2.

[vhatever]

Would anyone be deterred by the fact that Webber has KERS failure every second race?

Surely this is must be sabotage or gross incompetence on Webbers side of the garage?

vettel has the same problems. he just manages to still win races when he has them, unlike Webber.

[Jag_Warrior]

vettel has the same problems. he just manages to still win races when he has them, unlike Webber.

That's because he's magical. Even if his engine popped a piston, the sheer will of Seb could make that dumb old engine just keep on keepin' on. He's magical.

Back to the OP, I'd seriously like to see Hulkenberg get a shot. I thought I heard during the broadcast that he was on the market now.

[Garry Walker]

Back to the OP, I'd seriously like to see Hulkenberg get a shot. I thought I heard during the broadcast that he was on the market now.

Hulk has really not done that well this year, but I guess he would be better than Webber.

[truefan72]

all logic says that kimi should get the 2nd seat, as he is a much stronger and better driver than Ricciado.
but...
1. Vettel probably doesn't want that competition, and probaly asked for a solid #2 rather than an equal #1
I don't blame him for his position, but the team accommodating him to that level all but ensures ricciardo a firm #2 status, which means he will never win a race there unless Vettel is out of contention.

2. Red Bull Marko and co. are a bit mercurial in their decision making process.
They had a legitimate shot at landing Hamilton, but chose to retain webber instead. Them picking Ricciardo over Kimi will not be a surprise to me. I think horner wants kimi, but that's not his call at the end of the day

3. Red bull probably do not want to pay Kimi the type of salary he is probably asking for. And in all fairness should probably command.
And this is the real crucial element in this whole thing to me. Kimi is probably asking for a fairly substantial contract, and I'm guessing in the hamilton/alonso range for 3 years. If i were to hazard a guess, I'd say 3 years $50 mil contract. (incidentally that might also be an issue with him staying at renault. Although I think he would ask for less from them) If they sign kimi, then they would also have to rework the vettel contract in order to keep them both on par. And knowing RBR's history, paying driver's top dollar is not their thing.

It will also be interesting to see f the gremlins keep popping up on that side of the garage, because if they do, then perhaps they need to let go of some of that #2 staff & engineers

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah, I'm sure the team would want Kimi. I doubt Vettel would. So who knows how it will play out??? Personally, I'd love to see Kimi stay with Lotus and them get some money! I cannot believe that a team that performs that well cannot get proper funding! There's something very wrong with that picture - maybe something about the ownership that we don't know? Didn't they just sell 35% to Infinity Racing? Have they forgotten to cash the check???

For selfish reasons (as a fan of the sport), I'd just rather see more strong teams. And with Kimi at Lotus, I think we'd have that again next year... maybe. No way to know how various teams will deal with the new engine and chassis formula.

[The Black Knight]

Alonso to Ferrari?

Ferrari's Luca di Montezemolo scolds Fernando Alonso with public rebuke | Ferrari | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN.co.uk (http://www.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport/story/119083.html)

Things not so rosy in Ferrari's garden.

[Mia 01]

It seems as it could be a very long contract for kimi at Red Bull, 10 years at least.
We will see.

[keysersoze]

If Alonso manages to slide into the Red Bull seat, I would expect Domenicali to make a strong play for Kimi. At least the Finn could have some assurance that he'll get paid.

And with Massa on the hot seat, perhaps Ferrari will poach a McLaren driver, or Rosberg.

[Mia 01]

If Alonso manages to slide into the Red Bull seat, I would expect Domenicali to make a strong play for Kimi. At least the Finn could have some assurance that he'll get paid.

And with Massa on the hot seat, perhaps Ferrari will poach a McLaren driver, or Rosberg.

Ofcourse, that´s not that far fetched. Ferrari must regret that hey fired Kim, their latest WDC and WCC tvice. And Kimi comes with no politics, just pure speed. But as it stands in hindsigt i fear that Red Bull value Kimi higher than Alonso.

[TheFamousEccles]

Alonso to Ferrari?

Ferrari's Luca di Montezemolo scolds Fernando Alonso with public rebuke | Ferrari | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN.co.uk (http://www.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport/story/119083.html)

Things not so rosy in Ferrari's garden.

Quoth Luca;

"All the great champions who have driven for Ferrari have always been asked to put the interests of the team above their own," the Ferrari president told his driver. "This is the moment to stay calm, avoid polemics and show humility and determination in making one's own contribution, standing alongside the team and its people both at the track and outside it."

Erm, this is Fred your talking to! give him a decent car and you won't hear a peep from him. But understand that the natural state of existence for an F1 driver is as an ego-driven animal with almost superhuman levels of self-absorption and an over-arching sense of entitlement. Even the crap ones (not saying Fred is crap, just making a point).

Its when the irresistible force (Fred) meets the immovable object (Ferrari) and senses of entitlement start arcing off of each other that the problems begin. I hope that this spirals out of control, it could get interesting! :vader:

[DexDexter]

If Alonso manages to slide into the Red Bull seat, I would expect Domenicali to make a strong play for Kimi. At least the Finn could have some assurance that he'll get paid.

And with Massa on the hot seat, perhaps Ferrari will poach a McLaren driver, or Rosberg.

I don't think Kimi will want to work with LDM after the way he was treated by him, I'm referring to all this stuff he talked about when Kimi was paid not to race.

Montezemolo explains Alonso-Raikkonen switch, denies Santander link (Video) - F1 Fanatic (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/12/19/montezemolo-explains-alonso-raikkonen-switch-denies-santander-link/)

[truefan72]

I don't think Kimi will want to work with LDM after the way he was treated by him, I'm referring to all this stuff he talked about when Kimi was paid not to race.

Montezemolo explains Alonso-Raikkonen switch, denies Santander link (Video) - F1 Fanatic (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/12/19/montezemolo-explains-alonso-raikkonen-switch-denies-santander-link/)

all i have to say to that is "money smoothes over a lot of problems"

[dj_bytedisaster]

all i have to say to that is "money smoothes over a lot of problems"

Not for Kimi. His uneasiness at ferrari was the reason to bog out of F1 in the first place. I can't imagine he would ever return to them.

[airshifter]

It seems to me he does mind who he works with if he picks any one driver over another. It sounds like Horner is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.Horner: Vettel doesn (http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/08/horner-vettel-doesnt-mind-who-he-works-with/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs)

[Mia 01]

There´s a new rumour floating around, that RBR has raised ther bid from 12 to 22 million dollar a year, that´s for Kimi to drive for them three years, but the contract is longer.

[TheFamousEccles]

12 to 22 million p.a? Nice little earner, that.

[Ari33]

There´s a new rumour floating around, that RBR has raised ther bid from 12 to 22 million dollar a year, that´s for Kimi to drive for them three years, but the contract is longer.


Two number one drivers in the same team = fireworks. Kimi wouldn't accept being shafted by the constant 'technical issues' and strategy mess-ups which Mark has had to endure. Nope, as much as I'd love to see Kimi alongside Seb, I just can't see it happening.

[zako85]

Two number one drivers in the same team = fireworks. Kimi wouldn't accept being shafted by the constant 'technical issues' and strategy mess-ups which Mark has had to endure. Nope, as much as I'd love to see Kimi alongside Seb, I just can't see it happening.


One way or another, Kimi will probably end signing a long term contract with Ferrari or RedBull. It's too good of an opportunity to pass up. Lotus is constantly broke and in turmoil. No one knows how competitive it will be next year.

[TheFamousEccles]

How Lotus could be broke with a sponsor like Genii Capital is beyond my comprehension. There are possibly some issues that I can't know about, but they would bring a significant wedge to the table - along with the others. As well as Renault being the principle technical partner, I can't understand how they could be in such apparent dire financial need? Maybe Kimi is too expensive... :rolleyes:

[zako85]

How Lotus could be broke with a sponsor like Genii Capital is beyond my comprehension. There are possibly some issues that I can't know about, but they would bring a significant wedge to the table - along with the others. As well as Renault being the principle technical partner, I can't understand how they could be in such apparent dire financial need? Maybe Kimi is too expensive... :rolleyes:

There were plenty of troubling news. First, Lotus owed a lot of money to Renault for the engines in 2011. Then there were reports of Kimi Raikkonen not being paid on time for his 2012 work.

Raikkonen bonus money costs Lotus more than they expected | Grand Prix 247 (http://grandprix247.com/2012/11/24/raikkonen-bonus-money-cost-lotus-more-than-they-expected/)

Now this:

Lotus F1 team hits out at reports of financial trouble - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109230)


Genii Capital is not just a sponsor. I understand they own a chunk of team and probably would like to run it at profit. At some point the shareholders may get tired of sinking lots of money into the team with no return.

[TheFamousEccles]

Some more "almost news" stories regarding the 2nd RBR seat - these long breaks are a pest for the journo's, they've got column inches to fill and anything will do I guess. Still, Daniel is still my choice for the seat, although as I mentioned I am biased for many reasons :p

Hulkenberg urges Red Bull to sign Ricciardo | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hulkenberg-urges-red-bull-to-sign-ricciardo/)

This one is a personal favourite - see if you can spot the redundancies in this bit of prose:

'Very high' stakes as Ricciardo eyes Red Bull - Tost | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/very-high-stakes-as-ricciardo-eyes-red-bull-tost/)

And good ol' Niki Lauda is always good for a quote (though I am sure there are some issues of context - journo's don't cherry pick quotes, do they):

Alonso would spell 'trouble' for Red Bull - Lauda | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-would-spell-trouble-for-red-bull-lauda/)

[zako85]

^

That's probably because poor Nico is now praying that a seat would open up at least at a Toro Rosso car so he could get out of the sinking Sauber ASAP ;)

[Ranger]

Ricciardo wird neuer Vettel-Teamkollege bei Red Bull - MOTORSPORT UND FORMEL 1 - Sport-Bild (http://sportbild.bild.de/SPORT/formel-1/2013/08/17/vettel-kollege/red-bull-holt-daniel-ricciardo.html)

Ricciardo has the drive, and it will be announced at Spa.

It's from a tabloid but the Bild was right about Webber signing for Porsche, so I'm inclined to think that this is true.

[Tazio]

Some more "almost news" stories regarding the 2nd RBR seat - these long breaks are a pest for the journo's, they've got column inches to fill and anything will do I guess. Still, Daniel is still my choice for the seat, although as I mentioned I am biased for many reasons :p

Hulkenberg urges Red Bull to sign Ricciardo | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hulkenberg-urges-red-bull-to-sign-ricciardo/)

This one is a personal favourite - see if you can spot the redundancies in this bit of prose:

'Very high' stakes as Ricciardo eyes Red Bull - Tost | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/very-high-stakes-as-ricciardo-eyes-red-bull-tost/)

And good ol' Niki Lauda is always good for a quote (though I am sure there are some issues of context - journo's don't cherry pick quotes, do they):

Alonso would spell 'trouble' for Red Bull - Lauda | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-would-spell-trouble-for-red-bull-lauda/)

So true, some of this stuff has crossed the border of the absurd :p :
I do hope DR gets the ride, even if he is #2 he will get plenty of shots at winning. :idea:

[anfield5]

But in Alonso's defense he has almost won two of the last three titles in a red tractor, that had no business near the front of the grid. He has done more than most top drivers in a bad car and up until a few weeks ago has always remained positive about the team. Ferrari can't complain too much if after one of his 68 races in a sub-par car he vents slightly. Just imagine the whinging if he was Paul diResta!

[Parabolica]

Alonso to Red Bull?

No, I don't think it will occur. As a matter of fact, I believe that the appearance of his manager in the Red Bull motorhome was a deliberate coincidence, a ploy to strengthen both Alonso and Red Bull in their respective situations.

I suggest that it suited Alonso as it puts pressure on Ferrari. It also plays to potentially unnerve Vettel (except Sebastian doesn't seem particularly vulnerable to this type of mind-game).

I suggest it suited Red Bull as it strengthen them in any potential move for Kimi. It is not so easy to demand top dollar if you know another superstar is possible for the position.

It is a position beneficial to the parties involved individually.

Not bad, considering the conversation probably was about Sainz Jr and another test/Torro Rodso seat.

[DexDexter]

Räikkönen ei siirry Red Bullille - F1 - Turun Sanomat (http://www.ts.fi/moottoriurheilu/f1/524442/Raikkonen+ei+siirry+Red+Bullille)

Kimi will not make the move to Red Bull, the source is Heikki Kulta, who quotes Robertson.

[truefan72]

so what's going on with Red Bull's driver announcement

I thought Horner said they will announce it during this summer break

oh well

money is on ricciado filling the seat with a firm #2 contract
kimi to ferrari
hulk to lotus
massa out of the picture
and kobayashi back at sauber

[truefan72]

Formula 1 - Red Bull end talks with Raikkonen, Ricciardo set to get seat - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-red-bull-seat-raikkonen-2014-151249068.html)

RBR and team Kimi end talks, Ricciardo set for 2nd seat

As i suspected, I believe this is probably down to money and RBR not willing to pay the type of salary Kimi is looking for.
RBR never pay those gigantic salaries and as I said before, if they signed kimi, then they would have to immediately renegotiate Vettel's contract to match or exceed that.
so Signing kimi would be like having to give out 2 huge salaries.

[Koz]

What a shame. So much for hoping we would see a top driver in there to see how much Newey car is worth.

Now we wait and see if Ricciardo's second half of the season is reminiscent of Perez last year. Also Vergne's response will be interesting.

[RS]

so what's going on with Red Bull's driver announcement

I thought Horner said they will announce it during this summer break

oh well

money is on ricciado filling the seat with a firm #2 contract
kimi to ferrari
hulk to lotus
massa out of the picture
and kobayashi back at sauber

^^^ I'd be happy with that.

[zako85]

Sauber is broke and probably will hire at least one pay driver.

[anfield5]

Sauber is broke and probably will hire at least one pay driver.

Sauber was broke but the Russian money has cured that (unless the apparently scurrilous rumors about the deal falling through turn out to be correct)

[Koz]

Sauber was broke but the Russian money has cured that (unless the apparently scurrilous rumors about the deal falling through turn out to be correct)

That would depend very much on what happens with the Russian GP.

[steveaki13]

Cant see Alonso being taken on by Red Bull to be honest, Kimi I could see, but ultimately I only see Ricciardo getting the drive.

[Juppe]

The funny thing about Red Bull / Kimi business is that today (according to finnish media anyway) Kimi said that Red Bull never gave him any answer and that he urged the reporters to ask Red Bull, if they wanted to know more, because he knows about the Red Bull business as much as the rest of us.

And as Kimi's manager said, they have not been in talks with Kimi for a while now - so it seems, that Red Bull has not been seriously after Kimi - at least not for a while - or that there really is some sort of internal battle at Red Bull and they honestly have not come into an agreement about then other seat.

Despite the rumours - it is hard for me to see Kimi back at Ferrari, but you never know - I'd even say that McLaren could be a more plausible place for Kimi, because they value Kimi there and probably would like to see him back.

[truefan72]

Despite the rumours - it is hard for me to see Kimi back at Ferrari, but you never know - I'd even say that McLaren could be a more plausible place for Kimi, because they value Kimi there and probably would like to see him back.

He won't be back at mclaren for 4 reasons
1. the car is not good and as per mclaren's typical trajectory, they will probably not have a better car than lotus, ferrari, RBR or mercedes next year.
2. Ron dennis and the stiff culture
3. no desire for increased sponsorship agreements etc.
4. No seat available, although it seems the team have yet to offer Button a contract...typical

[truefan72]

The funny thing about Red Bull / Kimi business is that today (according to finnish media anyway) Kimi said that Red Bull never gave him any answer and that he urged the reporters to ask Red Bull, if they wanted to know more, because he knows about the Red Bull business as much as the rest of us.

And as Kimi's manager said, they have not been in talks with Kimi for a while now - so it seems, that Red Bull has not been seriously after Kimi - at least not for a while - or that there really is some sort of internal battle at Red Bull and they honestly have not come into an agreement about then other seat.

You are probably right that there is a massive internal battle going on at RBR.
and I can see both sides, but in the end, if they want 2 strong drivers, then Kimi is the way to go, although he might break the bank and force a vettel matching contract...which is the other side

[Parabolica]

Of course, events may make the point of this post pointless, but why would Red Bull announce their 2014 line-up now?

The longer it goes on, the more it unsettles everyone else.

Red Bull hold the Aces in this card game.

[Ranger]

I think you're right.

Webber didn't say who it was, but thought "the deal was done and that it was a great day for Australia."

[Garry Walker]

But in Alonso's defense he has almost won two of the last three titles in a red tractor, that had no business near the front of the grid. He has done more than most top drivers in a bad car and up until a few weeks ago has always remained positive about the team. Ferrari can't complain too much if after one of his 68 races in a sub-par car he vents slightly. Just imagine the whinging if he was Paul diResta!

Yeah. Alonso has almost won two titles in cars that didn't deserve to win, if he had been in the Red Bull car in 2010 and in 2012 the seasons would have been over 4-5 races before the last race.


Formula 1 - Red Bull end talks with Raikkonen, Ricciardo set to get seat - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-red-bull-seat-raikkonen-2014-151249068.html)

RBR and team Kimi end talks, Ricciardo set for 2nd seat

As i suspected, I believe this is probably down to money and RBR not willing to pay the type of salary Kimi is looking for.
RBR never pay those gigantic salaries and as I said before, if they signed kimi, then they would have to immediately renegotiate Vettel's contract to match or exceed that.
so Signing kimi would be like having to give out 2 huge salaries.

The reason they will hire Ricciardo (imagine someone like him in the dominant car. LOL) only because they realize that he is not a top level driver and will not be any threat to Marko's precious. Kimi would make Red Bull's precious cry and bitch too much, so Marko can never allow that.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yeah. Alonso has almost won two titles in cars that didn't deserve to win, if he had been in the Red Bull car in 2010 and in 2012 the seasons would have been over 4-5 races before the last race.

But he wasn't in a Red Bull car, therefore he didn't win those titles. And in 2010 he should have. All he had to do was overtaking a Russian paydriver in a clapped-out Clio and he failed at it. Part of being a top driver is knowing where to be. That's why Senna went from Lotus to McLaren when the latter were back to old strength and that's why he jumped ship to Williams in 1994. I doubt Red Bull would've declined to sign him, had he ever offered his services for a reasonable price.



The reason they will hire Ricciardo (imagine someone like him in the dominant car. LOL) only because they realize that he is not a top level driver and will not be any threat to Marko's precious. Kimi would make Red Bull's precious cry and bitch too much, so Marko can never allow that.

You seem to forget that Vettel actually lobbied for Räikkönen to be signed for the second seat. And for all his loud-mouthing, Marko is just a consultant in the team, the ultimate decision is being made by Mateschitz and he's by far not as fond of Vettel as people think. In fact his favourite has been Webber. Only problem is that Mark was usually as competitive as a one-legged man at an arse-kicking contest. The most likely reason for the RB/Räikkönen talks to break down is money. Seb gets a rather humble salary for F1 standards. Had they signed the iceman, they would have had to jack up Vettels moulah as well. And even if Mateschitz is filthy rich, that doesn't mean he's fond of throwing his money out of the window.

[Garry Walker]

But he wasn't in a Red Bull car, therefore he didn't win those titles. And in 2010 he should have. All he had to do was overtaking a Russian paydriver in a clapped-out Clio and he failed at it. Part of being a top driver is knowing where to be.
Overtaking on that track was near impossible, even someone like you knows it.



That's why Senna went from Lotus to McLaren when the latter were back to old strength and that's why he jumped ship to Williams in 1994. I doubt Red Bull would've declined to sign him, had he ever offered his services for a reasonable price. Red Bull offered him a contract for 2008 or 2009, he declined. Stupid decision in hindsight, but I am sure no one would have imagined Ferrari and McLaren being worse seats than Red Bull for a long period of time.





You seem to forget that Vettel actually lobbied for Räikkönen to be signed for the second seat
:laugh: Proof?



And for all his loud-mouthing, Marko is just a consultant in the team, the ultimate decision is being made by Mateschitz and he's by far not as fond of Vettel as people think. In fact his favourite has been Webber. But he is not around daily, someone like Marko has far more power from race to race.


The most likely reason for the RB/Räikkönen talks to break down is money. Seb gets a rather humble salary for F1 standards. Had they signed the iceman,

No proof of that.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Overtaking on that track was near impossible, even someone like you knows it.

NEAR impossible, not impossible. Had he been stuck behind Kubica, ok, but Petrov?


:laugh: Proof?

Have you been living under a rock or something? He's only been asked about his preferred team mate a bazillion times, especially when the Alonso rumours came up. He said again and again that he would prefer Kimi over Alonso. He never even mentioned Riciardo until the news came that talks with Kimi had broken down.


But he is not around daily, someone like Marko has far more power from race to race.

Marko tried to get rid of webber since 2011, Mateschitz wanted to keep him. Guess who won.

[jens]

Fabulous, how multiple threads have yet again derailed into "Vettel is or is not a good driver" thread.

Just one advice to you.
All of those, who are busy declaring Vettel as "unproven, hasn't done this or that", leave him just like that - unproven. Instead of creating some new "unproven" criterias according to which he actually is rated somewhere in the pack, would get outqualified by Hamilton by four tenths (or whatever I am reading in various threads) or what else. If he is unproven, he is unproven, he can't be rated anywhere. Forget about the rest and leave it there.

[gm99]

Dr. Marko and Daniel Ricciardo just appeared on Austrian ServusTV (Red Bull owned tv channel) and confirmed that DR will indeed be RBR's 2nd driver in 2014.

[steveaki13]

Good for him. Its a great chance for podiums and wins so its a dream for a driver. I hope he can take the chance and maybe give Australia what it craves. A World Champion some day.

[zako85]

This makes a perfect financial sense for the team. Hiring Raikkonen would have cost RBR a ridiculous amount of money, since he gets paid almost certainly a lot more than Webber. This would also inevitably mean bumping Vettel's pay because it would be offending to pay him less or even the same as the other driver.

[Whyzars]

Good for him. Its a great chance for podiums and wins so its a dream for a driver. I hope he can take the chance and maybe give Australia what it craves. A World Champion some day.

...give Australia what it craves. Another World Champion to follow in the footsteps of Brabham and Jones.

Fixed. :)

[steveaki13]

...give Australia what it craves. Another World Champion to follow in the footsteps of Brabham and Jones.

Fixed. :)

Badly put on my part. Was meant to imply give Australia what it Craves. "Another" World Champion some day". My Brain obviously decided to miss that word out.

[The Black Knight]

Good announcement for Ricciardo yesterday now that the worst kept secret of the silly season is now official.

Good news for the other teams as well as RBR are bringing and unknown and very inexperienced driver into the fold. Personally, I've seen very little from Ricciardo which suggests me that he's the second coming but time will tell exactly what will happen. Good luck to him.

[jens]

Good luck to Ricciardo. Will be a tall order to deliver. Other young drivers Grosjean and Pérez haven't yet manage to deliver after getting a promotion.

Perhaps the most promising part of Ricciardo's career so far is that he seemed to go very well in HRT in late 2011, outracing Liuzzi and competing with supposedly superior cars. STR hasn't been anything convincing yet regardless of an odd promise here and there. But obviously RBR sees at least something in him. But then again Lotus saw in Grosjean and McLaren in Pérez as well. We'll see.

[Parabolica]

Seriously, has there ever been a less-deserving and uninspiring signing for a Championship winning team?

I may be proved wrong - and it is not important to me that I am not - but I really cannot find much in the way of enthusiasm for this announcement.

It is not that I wanted to see anyone else in particular get the drive, either.

[jens]

Seriously, has there ever been a less-deserving and uninspiring signing for a Championship winning team?

I may be proved wrong - and it is not important to me that I am not - but I really cannot find much in the way of enthusiasm for this announcement.

It is not that I wanted to see anyone else in particular get the drive, either.

Has there ever been? If you ask like that, then definitely. Keke Rosberg was a nobody in 1981, when suddenly a vacancy opened in Williams. And he became World Champion the very next year...

As said in another thread, we may like it or not like it, but timing is everything in Formula One. You may get a lucky break and get a good career... or you may not get, and you are out or in midfield. I am sure Heidfeld has a lot of opinions about it. Or Alguersuari, who seemed to perform no worse than Ricciardo now, but was left out of F1 altogether.

Lucky breaks? Coulthard straight into top team following Senna's death. Irvine and Massa into Ferrari from invisible midfield runners. Kovalainen to McLaren in 2008, because Alonso left the team so late that McLaren had nobody to choose from on the driver market.

Anyway, let's see, what comes out of this.

[Parabolica]

Has there ever been? If you ask like that, then definitely. Keke Rosberg was a nobody in 1981, when suddenly a vacancy opened in Williams. And he became World Champion the very next year...

As said in another thread, we may like it or not like it, but timing is everything in Formula One. You may get a lucky break and get a good career... or you may not get, and you are out or in midfield. I am sure Heidfeld has a lot of opinions about it. Or Alguersuari, who seemed to perform no worse than Ricciardo now, but was left out of F1 altogether.

Lucky breaks? Coulthard straight into top team following Senna's death. Irvine and Massa into Ferrari from invisible midfield runners. Kovalainen to McLaren in 2008, because Alonso left the team so late that McLaren had nobody to choose from on the driver market.

Anyway, let's see, what comes out of this.

Keke had won a non-Championship F1 race, and easily out-paced his Fittipaldi team-mates.

But that is, perhaps, for the Nostalgia forum.

As you say, though, let's see.

[TheFamousEccles]

"It is not that I wanted to see anyone else in particular get the drive, either."

Then what - in the name of all the imaginary friends - is your point? Talking loud and saying nothing.

You mention Luizi having a better resume than Ricciardo (in another thread), but in their brief tenure as team mates he was handed his arse on a platter regularly. Sorry if I come over all confrontational, but your blithe dismissal of any and all candidates for the RBR seat is contradicted by other posts you've made.

I guess in the long run none of this is important as the decision is made - just curious is all.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I can't really understand some of the rubbish that's being posted here. How can Ricciardo be an inexperienced driver as some claimed? The guy is about to finish his third full season in Formula One? How does that match the definition of 'inexperienced'?

Ricciardo has, what Red Bull wants - he is reliable. He's got all of 5 retirements in all his years in F1 and with the HRT he's driven one of the most shockingly bad machines in history. Keeping an RB on the road usually means guaranteed points. That's what a team's looking for that wants to win constructors titles. They don't need to hire a top driver, they already have one and besides, who knows, Danny might hand Vettel his arse on a platter next year as nobody can vouch for the RB being the best car again or fitting Vettels preference. With the rumours about the über-superior Merc Engines, they might well find themselves at the wrong end of the points scale next year.

[kfzmeister]

I do like the comparison that James Allen makes between J. Alguersari and Ricciardio.

Jaime was absolutely the better driver, yet got axed in a ruthless system.

Btw, wasn't Jaime the one that had that run-in with Marko in Korea a few years ago where he supposedly held up Wonderboi during qualifying?? All i remember is Helmet rushing into the STR garage and telling Jaime that it was totally unacceptable.

Ricciardo signing shows its all about timingJames Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/09/ricciardo-signing-shows-its-all-about-timing/)

[dj_bytedisaster]

I do like the comparison that James Allen makes between J. Alguersari and Ricciardio.

Jaime was absolutely the better driver, yet got axed in a ruthless system.

Btw, wasn't Jaime the one that had that run-in with Marko in Korea a few years ago where he supposedly held up Wonderboi during qualifying?? All i remember is Helmet rushing into the STR garage and telling Jaime that it was totally unacceptable.

Ricciardo signing shows its all about timingJames Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/09/ricciardo-signing-shows-its-all-about-timing/)

You seem to have missed the main point of the article. Algersuari was just in the right place at the wrong time. He was ready for bigger challenges, when the current fad of pay drivers started to gain importance. If you're driving for TR, RB isn't neccessarily your only option, but other teams prefered to take on people like Bruno Senna, Maldonado, Perez or Gutierrez, who came with big sponsors. I don't think Algersuari was that much better than Ricciardo. The 2011 TR was quite a decent piece of machinery, yet he never managed anything more than lower points paying positions. Still a solid achievement, but nothing spectacular either.

[Parabolica]

"It is not that I wanted to see anyone else in particular get the drive, either."

Then what - in the name of all the imaginary friends - is your point? Talking loud and saying nothing.

You mention Luizi having a better resume than Ricciardo (in another thread), but in their brief tenure as team mates he was handed his arse on a platter regularly. Sorry if I come over all confrontational, but your blithe dismissal of any and all candidates for the RBR seat is contradicted by other posts you've made.

I guess in the long run none of this is important as the decision is made - just curious is all.

I'm not sure what is so difficult to grasp about me not having a favourite for the Red Bull seat.

I hadn't. I just find Ricciardo's promotion underwhelming.

Comparing Liuzzi and his performances in an HRT is slightly spurious, as it was fairly evident that HRT's level of preparation at any given time was not the greatest. Perhaps Ricciardo is faster, I believe he probably is as Red Bull aren't, I expect, in the habit of giving seats away just for fun. My point regarding the comparison between Liuzzi and Ricciardo is that a pre-F1 level CV is no guarantee of F1 success.

He may well prove me wrong. He may well be the Second Coming.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I hadn't. I just find Ricciardo's promotion underwhelming.


Which begs the question, whether or not you are just disappointed because you hoped that Kimi or Fernando would get the seat, hoping they would mop the floor with Vettel ;)

[kfzmeister]

You seem to have missed the main point of the article. Algersuari was just in the right place at the wrong time. He was ready for bigger challenges, when the current fad of pay drivers started to gain importance. If you're driving for TR, RB isn't neccessarily your only option, but other teams prefered to take on people like Bruno Senna, Maldonado, Perez or Gutierrez, who came with big sponsors. I don't think Algersuari was that much better than Ricciardo. The 2011 TR was quite a decent piece of machinery, yet he never managed anything more than lower points paying positions. Still a solid achievement, but nothing spectacular either.

Aside from the fact that the article is "about timing", YOU seem to have missed the direct comparison in numbers between the two. Also the fact that teams were watching him and were making offers. It clearly suggests that he was better than Ricciardio.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Aside from the fact that the article is "about timing", YOU seem to have missed the direct comparison in numbers between the two. Also the fact that teams were watching him and were making offers. It clearly suggests that he was better than Ricciardio.

If they made offers, why didn't he take any of them. Fact of the matter is, Ricciardo has a seat, Algersuari hasn't - someone's done something right.

[AndyL]

If they made offers, why didn't he take any of them.

The answer to that is also in the article. He was foolish enough to believe Helmut Marko's assurance that his Torro Rosso contract would be renewed.

[kfzmeister]

The answer to that is also in the article. He was foolish enough to believe Helmut Marko's assurance that his Torro Rosso contract would be renewed.

At least somebody has read it! :rolleyes:

[dj_bytedisaster]

The answer to that is also in the article. He was foolish enough to believe Helmut Marko's assurance that his Torro Rosso contract would be renewed.

Even if it was a decent piece of kit, the 2011 TR still was only a midfield car. If he put all his eggs in the TR basket, he either only got offers from bottom-rung teams or he was incredibly naive. Since its very inception TR was a team that you drive for for 2 or 3 years and then you either move somewhere else or out of F1. Algersuari and - more crucially - his management must have known that. It was hardly a secret in 2011.

[Parabolica]

Which begs the question, whether or not you are just disappointed because you hoped that Kimi or Fernando would get the seat, hoping they would mop the floor with Vettel ;)

No, not disappointed.

I rate Vettel very highly. With 3 Championships with a Fourth in the offing, it would be unwise not to. I actually find it sad that he isn't given the kudos he deserves.

I had stated clearly in a previous post that I had no favourite for the Red Bull seat.

[AndyL]

Even if it was a decent piece of kit, the 2011 TR still was only a midfield car. If he put all his eggs in the TR basket, he either only got offers from bottom-rung teams or he was incredibly naive.

Again, the article says who he had an offer from, and why he decided to stay at Torro Rosso. How much of it did you actually read before you decided what "the main point" of it was?