Indycar failure to return to top form

[ssj4]

Yesterdays Indy 500 was shaping up to be a classic...and then there was a caution. I am all for them ending these caution ending races. something needs to be done, because this league is already struggling with ratings. I also think that the current specs are way too low tech, way too slow and way too much drag. 228 mph qualifying laps should have been over with 20 years ago. With improvements in safety equipment and protection during impact, I see no reason why 240 plus mph laps at indy is unsafe. I do think the downforce levels are decent, but the cars have too much drag causing top speeds on super-speedways like Indy to suffer. The cars couldnt even crack 230 mph going down the front and back straights without a massive tow. I remember when the cars from cart racing in the 90's did over 250 mph on super-speedways like michigan and fontana. The current engines are underpowered also. They should be at least 850 horsepower or more on both road and ovals. I think the current setup of chassis and engine is taking away from driver skill. With a high downforce, but high drag and under powered engines, the cars are to easy to drive flat-out. Will power was doing laps at yesterday indy 500 without lifting off the throttle...where is the skill in that? I think the blue print of success would mirror more the specs of the cart cars of the late 90's with the aerodynamic philosophy of the panoz DP01 car...which was creating more downforce from the under body of the car, creating less dependence on front and rear wings for downforce. This would allow for less turbulant air when behind another car. Less drag would allow for much higher top speeds and much faster lap times...drivers would actually have to lift at Indy, which would lessen pack racing. More powerful engines and a more flexible regulations for tuning them would really allow the best drivers and teams to shine. After all it was this current spec indy cars which make pack racing common that killed dan wheldon at the las vegas speedway. Unfortunately I doubt these issues will be addressed and I dont see this series drawing new fans in anytime soon.

[Jag_Warrior]

Preach on, brother. Preach on! :up:

[race aficionado]

Now that we are at it . . . and pardon my ignorance, but when my fellow countryman Juan Pablo Montoya won the Indy 500, were the cars to your liking?

[Jag_Warrior]

I hated those slugs even more than the spec cars they run now. But I was cheering Juan on as he completely spanked the IRL field. But his comments on the IRL formula were that those cars were so easy to drive that even his grandmother could drive one. And about that same time, Juan's future nemesis, Jacques Villeneuve, described the IRL as "cheap and unprofessional". I think these new (spec) cars are better and safer than those back breakers from the late 90's. But they're still nothing to write home about.

As I posted in the Indy Car forum, it seems like the Indy 500 has once again set a record. But where we once had new track records, we now have new record low ratings: Indy 500: Race Earns Lowest Overnight Rating on Record (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2013/05/indy-500-race-earns-lowest-overnight-rating-on-record/)

After spending about 40 years watching and loving this race, this gives me no pleasure. In fact, it is my hope that Satan takes time out of his busy day to personally light Tony George's soul ablaze when he gets to that place down below.

[chriswadsworth]

I don't know because I have not got ESPN , I have not seen the race. :cat: :cat:

[D-Type]

ssj4,
Can you please explain why you posted this on this forum and not on the indycar forum?

[FIAT1]

Having series that would appeal to open wheel fans should have open wheels first. That would be a good start ,don't you think?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Having series that would appeal to open wheel fans should have open wheels first. That would be a good start ,don't you think?

Open wheels on an oval has proven to be a recipe for desaster however. The beef I have with the IRL, apart from killing off the superior series by money and sponsor drain, is that they abandoned the best looking openwheel race cars and went for those airbox equipped monstrosities, which look like a backmarker F1 car designed by Ray Charles. I started watching CART back in '93 when Mansell went there and I was hooked immediately. Those 90's Champcars are IMHO the best looking openwheelers ever.

Indycars have been a front-runner on many things. They've made many innovations. The medical team of Terry Trammell was second to none. If you read the story about how they saved Alex Zanardi's life, you start to wonder how the Vatican hasn't beatified them yet. Also, Indycars have been a front-runner in terms of gender equality. In no other major racing category (except Dakar perhaps) have female racer gotten their chance at such a consistent level and - most importantly - competitive equipment, unlike many other series. DTM has been running 7 seasons with at least 2 ladies on the grid, but they never got top material. They were running in 1 or 2 year old privateer cars. In Indycars, they got even top cars, like Danica did with Andretti and she delivered - a win, several more top 5 and two very memorable runs in the 500. So Indycars have a lot going for them, but they need to remember some of the lessons from the time when CART was in its best shape - international TV broadcasts, international stars and some homemade stars instead of losing them to NASCAR endlessly.

[Rex Monaco]

Having series that would appeal to open wheel fans should have open wheels first. That would be a good start ,don't you think?

Personally, I'm not married to the open wheel aspect of Indycar racing. I could make the argument that there is a niche for streamlined closed wheeled cars on ovals. The streamlined pre-war Audis and Mercedes were some of the most beautiful car's of the era as were the post-war close fendered Mercedes Grand Prix cars. And the pre-war speed runs (at 249mph, faster than any record at Indy) were done on ovals.

There is no way anyone would ever propose such a thing now though. And if they did, it'd be better done with a 10 year gradual move instead of an overnight rule change.

What Indy needs now, in one rule change, is to open the engine rules to allow any auto manufacture to take a stab at winning the Indy 500 without having to commit to running the entire series. At first it would just be the engines, but they need to open chassis rules too. This would go along way towards bringing money and excitement back to the Indy 500.

Akio Toyoda is on record recently acknowledging the lack of pedigree in the Lexus brand. He wants to build excitement into the brand. The Indy 500 of old would have been one of the places for them to establish pedigree. And company such as Hyundai, who might not be willing to commit to the whole series, could do the Indy 500 to be the first Korean company to win Indy (which means less now that they own KIA too).

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[FIAT1]

Personally, I'm not married to the open wheel aspect of Indycar racing. I could make the argument that there is a niche for streamlined closed wheeled cars on ovals. The streamlined pre-war Audis and Mercedes were some of the most beautiful car's of the era as were the post-war close fendered Mercedes Grand Prix cars. And the pre-war speed runs (at 249mph, faster than any record at Indy) were done on ovals.

There is no way anyone would ever propose such a thing now though. And if they did, it'd be better done with a 10 year gradual move instead of an overnight rule change.

What Indy needs now, in one rule change, is to open the engine rules to allow any auto manufacture to take a stab at winning the Indy 500 without having to commit to running the entire series. At first it would just be the engines, but they need to open chassis rules too. This would go along way towards bringing money and excitement back to the Indy 500.

Akio Toyoda is on record recently acknowledging the lack of pedigree in the Lexus brand. He wants to build excitement into the brand. The Indy 500 of old would have been one of the places for them to establish pedigree. And company such as Hyundai, who might not be willing to commit to the whole series, could do the Indy 500 to be the first Korean company to win Indy (which means less now that they own KIA too).

Agree, but to me open wheel formula car is just that. I love seeing the tires and skill of precision of racing that type a car. Regardless, we all know that slow spec car is the problem and needs fixing .

[zako85]

I honestly don't understand what you guys are complaining about. Cars not fast enough? Does anyone really think that 30mph faster speeds would make IndyCar racing a lot more exciting or more popular than it already is? I think faster speeds can only bring more trouble. The human body can cope with Gs only up to some point, and faster speeds will also mean cars smash faster against the wall. Increasing speeds and hp is for the most part worthless. They won't make up for good racing. Cars are already fast enough that there are concerns about slowing them down on some ovals.

Also there is always some whining going on about looks of cars. If you don't like the way car looks then don't watch the series. The looks are entirely subjective. Personally, last year I went to Firestone 500 and it was truly a blast. The cars looked great, were fast enough, and roared so loud that I thought air was shaking. All this fun and excitement for under $100? Awesome.

Let me remind you that 2012 and 2013 IndyCar seasons were a blast to watch, and that without resorting to comedy Pirelli tires or such that are used in F1. The series is already pretty good, and I personally don't care for the fact that I may be alone watching it. IndyCar is making the right moves but at a snail pace. Since 2012 we got much better looking and safer car, Chevrolet engines, and a possibility of using aero kits in future. This new car has delivered a good show already, and there will be more to come. However, for the last 16 moths, I keep only hearing more whining on this board. Some people will never be happy no matter what.

I am also personally strongly against the proposals to open up the IndyCar reglament format to allow teams and manufacturers do crazy stuff but ONLY for Indy 500. Indy 500 is nice, but you know what, I kind of want to watch a good series, not a one off race. Besides, the last three Indy 500 races were already fine as is. What made them great was the tough competition. I really didn't care how many engines and chassis were involved, and most people watching it didn't care either. If you open up the chasis and engine rules for Indy 500, what this will do is reduce the competition to just two teams that will lap the rest of field, who can barely afford even the "cheap" spec Dallara chasis, several times. Oh dear. This sounds really exciting. Sort of what 24 Hours of LeMans is now (LMP1 of course).

[FIAT1]

I honestly don't understand what you guys are complaining about. Cars not fast enough? Does anyone really think that 30mph faster speeds would make IndyCar racing a lot more exciting or more popular than it already is? I think faster speeds can only bring more trouble. The human body can cope with Gs only up to some point, and faster speeds will also mean cars smash faster against the wall. Increasing speeds and hp is for the most part worthless. They won't make up for good racing. Cars are already fast enough that there are concerns about slowing them down on some ovals.

Also there is always some whining going on about looks of cars. If you don't like the way car looks then don't watch the series. The looks are entirely subjective. Personally, last year I went to Firestone 500 and it was truly a blast. The cars looked great, were fast enough, and roared so loud that I thought air was shaking. All this fun and excitement for under $100? Awesome.

Let me remind you that 2012 and 2013 IndyCar seasons were a blast to watch, and that without resorting to comedy Pirelli tires or such that are used in F1. The series is already pretty good, and I personally don't care for the fact that I may be alone watching it. IndyCar is making the right moves but at a snail pace. Since 2012 we got much better looking and safer car, Chevrolet engines, and a possibility of using aero kits in future. This new car has delivered a good show already, and there will be more to come. However, for the last 16 moths, I keep only hearing more whining on this board. Some people will never be happy no matter what.

I am also personally strongly against the proposals to open up the IndyCar reglament format to allow teams and manufacturers do crazy stuff but ONLY for Indy 500. Indy 500 is nice, but you know what, I kind of want to watch a good series, not a one off race. Besides, the last three Indy 500 races were already fine as is. What made them great was the tough competition. I really didn't care how many engines and chassis were involved, and most people watching it didn't care either. If you open up the chasis and engine rules for Indy 500, what this will do is reduce the competition to just two teams that will lap the rest of field, who can barely afford even the "cheap" spec Dallara chasis, several times. Oh dear. This sounds really exciting. Sort of what 24 Hours of LeMans is now (LMP1 of course).

People are not watching, they don't show up and racing related industry don't care for it. What is the problem then, with this perfection that you have described?

[zako85]

People are not watching, they don't show up and racing related industry don't care for it. What is the problem then, with this perfection that you have described?

They're not watching, but neither higher speeds or open formula format will cure this. People aren't watching Grand Am racing either, even though Rolex series teams several chassis and engines. The problem is NOT TECHNICAL. Point. Think about marketing issues. Cultural issues, etc. Ponder this, why can't the National Guard car have one decent North American driver? This has nothing to do with all the issues discussed here.

Exhibit 2: NASCAR cars are FUGLY, use antiquated tech, and go slower than IndyCars. People are still watching this. Like I said. If there is a solution to IndyCar's popularity/ratings problems, it's NOT technical.

[Rex Monaco]

Technical built Indy. Spec killed it. End of discussion.

[Rex Monaco]

They're not watching, but neither higher speeds or open formula format will cure this. People aren't watching Grand Am racing either, even though Rolex series teams several chassis and engines.

Sportscar racing in American has never had wide support from fans, it has always peaked when tech was front and center. That was true for the Can-Am era and for the IMSA era. And the manufacturers have always flocked to it when the rules allowed them to innovate.


The problem is NOT TECHNICAL. Point. Think about marketing issues. Cultural issues, etc. Ponder this, why can't the National Guard car have one decent North American driver? This has nothing to do with all the issues discussed here.

The most famous, and still one of the most widely loved drivers in Indycar history, spoke with an Italian accent and was named Mario. Indycar fans never needed to hear 'Junior' speak with southern accent to make them feel good about themselves and/or their sport. We embraced Graham Hll in the '60's, Emo in the '80's and Jacques in the '90's. You can go all the way back to the 3rd race and find a Frenchman who won. Ironically, during the jingoistic IRL era, we had LESS Americans winning the Indy 500.

But if you truly want American drivers to aspire to compete in Indycar, then you have to position Indycar as F1 lite and not NASCAR lite. Otherwise NASCAR will continue to poach the good Indycar drivers as they have been doing since the failed experiment began.


Exhibit 2: NASCAR cars are FUGLY, use antiquated tech, and go slower than IndyCars. People are still watching this. Like I said. If there is a solution to IndyCar's popularity/ratings problems, it's NOT technical.

When did NASCAR become the model for Indycar? Well we know when that happened. It happened when the megalomaniac wanted to be like Bill France instead of Eddie Rickenbacker. I guess the real question is, when did Indycar fans settle for being the open wheeled version of NASCAR?

If I want to see ugly cars racing on ovals putting on a good show then NASCAR puts on a much better show. What I want to see is diverse manufacturers and diverse drivers compete at the top level of motorsports on diverse tracks that test the skill of those drivers and their cars.

Pikes Peak will have more manufacturer diversity next year than the Indy 500. And with no marketing, you'd have to be a hardcore motorsports enthusiast to even know that race exists.

[Rex Monaco]

If Indycar does not do something soon to attract diverse manufacturer participation, the United Sportscar Racing series has the opportunity to take any auto manufacturer money not going to NASCAR away from Indycar. That might be fatal to Indycar.

[Jag_Warrior]

Someone at a higher pay grade than me can do the root cause analysis. But the final ratings came in and instead of going up, they went down even more - from a 3.8 overnight (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2013/05/indy-500-race-earns-lowest-overnight-rating-on-record/) to a 3.7 final (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2013/05/indy-500-final-rating-avoids-low-but-race-least-viewed-ever/). And please, don't anyone tell me that it's not an "Indy only" problem, but a "big event" problem. That's not true. The Super Bowl, the Daytona 500, the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness all have had very good to excellent TV ratings this year. In years past, Indy used to best the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness. It used to be shoulder to shoulder with the Daytona 500. There's just something very wrong with the script when horses can double up on the viewership of the Indy 500. And part of it (IMHO) is that there is a better job being done at "humanizing" the horses than is being done by the IRL/IMS at humanizing these drivers. Why?! How?!

My guess is, Indy Car has multiple issues that explain why it continues losing fans for even the Indy 500. And to get people interested again, I think they need to address the cars and the stars. Other than when I was into the ALMS, I've never gone to races just to see the cars. Well, once or twice, but I have always been more interested in the personalities driving the cars than the cars themselves. With ALMS, it was a close contest much of the time (cause some of those cars were downright outrageous and beautiful).

As I've said several times recently, I think all that's left for this series is for the people who still enjoy it... they should continue enjoying it. Don't let any of us Debbie Downers rain on your parade. And as Zako85 said, for those who are no longer into Indy Car, well... we should turn the set to another channel. Unfortunately, quite a few people have taken that advice since 1996 - and it looks like the beating is continuing.

My advice to IndyCar/IMS: hire Zak Brown yesterday, go to the bank and borrow about $100 million and then do whatever Zak tells you to do. There's no guarantee that even he can save it or make it grow again. But I feel like the guy who might have the big seat in F1 in his future probably has some smart ideas on how to keep this ship from sinking any further.

[Wade91]

indycar needs to take a lesson from nascar and implement green/white/checkered finishes

[jarrambide]

Exhibit 2: NASCAR cars are FUGLY, use antiquated tech, and go slower than IndyCars. People are still watching this. Like I said. If there is a solution to IndyCar's popularity/ratings problems, it's NOT technical.

Spoken like a true prodigy, the US racing fan seems to care zilch about technology, speeds, or even great driving, how many NASCAR races end up being a lottery due to so many yellow flags?

I also think basketball is one of the most boring sports if you are not on the actual arena, and they get better ratings than hockey, baseball, and soccer in the US, proving that sports are very subjective and personal.

[Jon Sudler]

Racing is a test of man and machine. Today's Indycars do not make the driver test the limit's enough. Make Indycars hard to drive. Make them test the skills of a driver, so that no mortal man can drive it quickly. Do that, and the series will atract "personallities", becuase those guys are will have to be a little crazy to drive the cars fast and find the edge. That will make it entertaining to watch.

[Jag_Warrior]

Exhibit 2: NASCAR cars are FUGLY, use antiquated tech, and go slower than IndyCars. People are still watching this. Like I said. If there is a solution to IndyCar's popularity/ratings problems, it's NOT technical.

While I agree that tech is not the sole magic bullet that will save Indy Car, it is a myth that NASCAR uses antiquated technology. Many of the tool & die makers, fabricators and CNC machinists who used to work in CART Indy Car/CCWS now work in NASCAR. They're doing things in AutoCAD and MasterCAM/FeatureCAM as they build those cars that most of the people left in Indy Car probably wouldn't understand. The technology in Tony Stewart's Haas equipped race shop alone puts anything and everything in the Indy Car paddock to shame... it's not even close. So don't be fooled by the fact that NASCAR uses N.A. pushrod engines, instead of overhead cam turbos, and think that NASCAR isn't a technology driven sport. Those "old pushrods" can turn about 10 grand. These "high tech" turbo engines that the IRL has now turn only 12K. That's about 4K rpms less than what they were turning back in the CART days. We used to have the edge on NASCAR in tech. But much like the ratings, those days are now gone.

As for the NASCAR stockers being "FUGLY", compared to one of these Dallara spec cars, with the rubber baby buggy bumpers, I don't think I'd be calling anybody's sister ugly. :D

Where NASCAR has THE edge now is that they have a large cast of characters and personalities that Indy Car can't compete with. How did NBC get the ratings up for the Kentucky Derby several years ago? They personified and humanized the horses. When Barbaro was injured, I heard more about him on the news (there were almost daily updates until the day he died) than I did when Dan Wheldon was killed. And that's disturbing. But you have to connect with a broad range of people for any series to be successful. You need good guys, bad guys, funny guys, legendary guys and fast guys. Look around. Where are the Marios, Emmos, Paul Tracys, Mike Andrettis, Max Papis types? I'm not going to turn on the set just to see a particular type of car more than once or twice. And I'm not going to fly to a race just to see a particular type of car more than once or twice. But I have skipped work to meet certain drivers. I have paid for girlfriends and friends to go with me so we could meet certain drivers.

The plot has been badly lost. We (no... they) need to work harder at getting the plot back and stop being content with having this be some sort of pro-am club racing series with goofy looking spec cars and mild engines.

[Starter]

Where NASCAR has THE edge now is that they have a large cast of characters and personalities that Indy Car can't compete with. How did NBC get the ratings up for the Kentucky Derby several years ago? They personified and humanized the horses. When Barbaro was injured, I heard more about him on the news (there were almost daily updates until the day he died) than I did when Dan Wheldon was killed. And that's disturbing. But you have to connect with a broad range of people for any series to be successful. You need good guys, bad guys, funny guys, legendary guys and fast guys. Look around. Where are the Marios, Emmos, Paul Tracys, Mike Andrettis, Max Papis types? I'm not going to turn on the set just to see a particular type of car more than once or twice. And I'm not going to fly to a race just to see a particular type of car more than once or twice. But I have skipped work to meet certain drivers. I have paid for girlfriends and friends to go with me so we could meet certain drivers.

The plot has been badly lost. We (no... they) need to work harder at getting the plot back and stop being content with having this be some sort of pro-am club racing series with goofy looking spec cars and mild engines.
You have a point about the drivers. Where CART and later the IRL failed (IMO) is they tried going with a B2B model. They forgot about the fans and what attracted them. Both the teams and the series were working on getting budgets via inter relationships with businesses and forgot about bringing larger audiences to the show. Then we had the split which divided and alienated the fans that were there. Not so many fans anymore and the B2B model started to fall apart because the fans were always most of the reason businesses were there.

Yes, the cars aren't as good looking or as fast as they could be. The racing is pretty darn good though. Ask yourself this - how long did it take USAC and then CART to build a series which attracted mass appeal? Remember that Indy type cars, except for the 500, were very much a niche sport in the '70s and early '80s. It took a decade to build to what it was in the late '80s and early '90s. And that was when there were limited TV alternatives for viewers. It was the big three networks or nothing. Anyone who thinks that sexy cars or new lap records are magic bullets is fooling themselves. It's gonna be a looong road back folks.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If Indycar had any shred of creativity left, they'd have built a special car for Alex Zanardi. Now that would've been a truly inspiring story. I could think of a few more things, like luring JPM back - he's wasted in NASCAR. And get Michael Andretti back into the car or try to blackmail M. Schumacher into riding a car - a few million quid should do the job and we'd see ratings soar.

[Starter]

If Indycar had any shred of creativity left, they'd have built a special car for Alex Zanardi. Now that would've been a truly inspiring story.
That would be a story.


I could think of a few more things, like luring JPM back - he's wasted in NASCAR.
Maybe, if he could fit into a car these days.


And get Michael Andretti back into the car
Sorry, you'd be better off with Mario in a car.


or try to blackmail M. Schumacher into riding a car - a few million quid should do the job and we'd see ratings soar.
You, me and a bunch of other people don't have enough money to make him do anything except laugh pretty hard.

[FIAT1]

I think that TK medallion was truly inspiring story, but not many people know about it. Do you think nascar would let go story like that wasted. Why local affiliates don't report outcome of Indycar races even when broadcast on their chanel. One could go on and on what needs to be done, but answer is very simple. Same stupid bunch of people that destroyed great series now run the leftovers with idiotic tv ,and chassis supplier contract , and for their own selfish reasons and bottom line don't care about anything else. They want to bring new fans ,but don't care about existing ones. I'm trying so hard to like this series as one that loves open wheel formula racing, but they making it very hard. New developement in 2015 after promises broken in last four. Dallara is holding them by the b.lls until 2017 and tv lunacy until 2018. I'm sorry spec club lovers but racing is not good. When leading Indy 500 three laps to go is a bad thing ,that's manufactured garbage. When race has half laps in yellow that's garbage. When half of the field take each other out by bumping that's amateur garbage. Rubing is not racing and ugly slow bumpercar is no challenge for real talented and that type of a joke of a car doesn't create stars that mean accomplishment of anything. Sad story all orund and I really had a big hopes for united series.

[Starter]

Rubing is not racing and ugly slow bumpercar is no challenge for real talented and that type of a joke of a car doesn't create stars that mean accomplishment of anything.
That's where you are completely wrong. When the difference between the cars is substantial, then any putz in the fastest car can win. It's when the cars are as near identical as possible that the deciding factor is the talent of the driver and his/her skill in managing the car while turning lap times which will put them in front at the checker.

[garyshell]

When leading Indy 500 three laps to go is a bad thing ,that's manufactured garbage.

What? The slingshot pass was not invented with the Dalllara. Even in CART days this was a reality.

Gary

[garyshell]

That's where you are completely wrong. When the difference between the cars is substantial, then any putz in the fastest car can win. It's when the cars are as near identical as possible that the deciding factor is the talent of the driver and his/her skill in managing the car while turning lap times which will put them in front at the checker.

What he said ^^^.

Gary

[FIAT1]

What? The slingshot pass was not invented with the Dalllara. Even in CART days this was a reality.

Gary

Did not say that dallara invented anything beside ugliest racing cars in history of motorsports. cart or any other ,doesn't change the fact that type racing is manufactured and boring.

[FIAT1]

What he said ^^^.

Gary

Shocked

[FIAT1]

That's where you are completely wrong. When the difference between the cars is substantial, then any putz in the fastest car can win. It's when the cars are as near identical as possible that the deciding factor is the talent of the driver and his/her skill in managing the car while turning lap times which will put them in front at the checker.

No that's where you wrong because if fans wanted Indy lights they would be watching. I do understand how people who enjoy amateur club racing can find that intertaning. Enjoy watching!

[garyshell]

Did not say that dallara invented anything beside ugliest racing cars in history of motorsports. cart or any other ,doesn't change the fact that type racing is manufactured and boring.

So you like it when the leader laps the entire field? That's not boring? Different strokes.

Gary

[FIAT1]

So you like it when the leader laps the entire field? That's not boring? Different strokes.

Gary

Did not say that, but there are ways of opening competition and making cars better looking, little faster, and more challenging to a driver. Like u said different strokes. Enjoy.

[Rex Monaco]

That's where you are completely wrong. When the difference between the cars is substantial, then any putz in the fastest car can win. It's when the cars are as near identical as possible that the deciding factor is the talent of the driver and his/her skill in managing the car while turning lap times which will put them in front at the checker.

If this is what Indycar fans really want, then to better achieve this and save even more money, the series should just rent the cars out to the teams each weekend. They could go as far as have last weeks field choose their cars in their finishing order. Then we can have an open wheeled version of the old IROC series that serves only to test the drivers skill. This will leave the engineers to find jobs in another top level racing series to utilize their skills.

The problem is, the series would then also loose the best drivers. Racers don't want an equal playing field anymore than most race car fans do. But there will be no shortage of drivers, as this will give those who can't get an ARCA ride the chance to compete.

Some of us watched Indy not just for the drivers. We watched Indy for the innovation. Most of us who did left the series long ago. The rest of us will follow them out the door. You guys can turn off the lights when it's done.

[Rex Monaco]

So you like it when the leader laps the entire field? That's not boring? Different strokes.

Gary

Do you follow any other motorsports? Are you aware of how other series bring parity to the diversity in their series? Or is spec racing your only frame of reference?

[Rex Monaco]

That said, if Chevy or Penske could figure out how to lap the field at Indy within the confines of a rules package that allowed innovation, the media coverage the next day and the hype before the next race would certainly attract some new viewers. While that might sound boring to those who like watching cars go droning around and around in circles, it wouldn't be boring to the new manufacturers or sponsors that would join so their engineers could beat Chevy or Penske.

One only has to look at the America's Cup to see the interest by casual fans and corporate sponsors when innovation was introduced to what was and still is a boring sport for all but the participants.

[garyshell]

Do you follow any other motorsports? Are you aware of how other series bring parity to the diversity in their series? Or is spec racing your only frame of reference?

Not sure if that was meant as an insult or just patronizing, but my frame of reference is considerably wider. I have been going to all manner of races regularly at Mid Ohio since 1967, and interested in racing long before that. I've attended races at Watkins Glen, Sebring, Sonoma, Sears Point, Dayton, Road America and other places. And yes I am aware of how ATTEMPTS have been made to bring parity, with various levels of success. (More often than not, low.)

So what is your point?

Gary

[Starter]

If this is what Indycar fans really want, then to better achieve this and save even more money, the series should just rent the cars out to the teams each weekend. They could go as far as have last weeks field choose their cars in their finishing order. Then we can have an open wheeled version of the old IROC series that serves only to test the drivers skill. This will leave the engineers to find jobs in another top level racing series to utilize their skills.
If you'll check back, you'll find I was replying to a specific post which contained a wrong conclusion. Nowhere did I say that total spec racing was my choice for a (supposedly) top level series.



The problem is, the series would then also loose the best drivers. Racers don't want an equal playing field anymore than most race car fans do. But there will be no shortage of drivers, as this will give those who can't get an ARCA ride the chance to compete.
While it's certainly nice to have an easy win once in a while, most drivers love the competition. Like a competitor in any other sport they want to win because THEY were the factor that made a difference. They also want to compete against the best drivers. Not because some engineer back at the shop had a great idea. So drivers will go where the competition is good and, at the pro level, where they can be nicely paid.


Some of us watched Indy not just for the drivers. We watched Indy for the innovation. Most of us who did left the series long ago. The rest of us will follow them out the door. You guys can turn off the lights when it's done.
Actually, Indy cars were never about great innovation. That was the CanAm, IMSA GTP, LeMans and F1 (sometimes). With the exception of turbines and a few other things before the "modern" era there hasn't been substantial innovation at Indy in many years.

[Starter]

I do understand how people who enjoy amateur club racing can find that intertaning. Enjoy watching!
You have no idea what SCCA amateur racing is do you? Those people are racers. They do it because they love the sport and most participate at great sacrifice to their personal finances. Stop on by at an event and I'll introduce you to some real racers.

[garyshell]

You have no idea what SCCA amateur racing is do you? Those people are racers. They do it because they love the sport and most participate at great sacrifice to their personal finances. Stop on by at an event and I'll introduce you to some real racers.

After having gone to races myself for many years, finally one year I was able to convince my father to go to his first race. It was the year that Cadillac went racing again in IMSA/ALMS (I forget who was the sanctioning body then). It was also the year my dad finally got a Cadillac. He really enjoyed the race. So much so, that latter that year we also went to see the SCCA runoffs. On the way back home Dad commented about how much more "racey those guys and gals were than the race we saw earlier in the season." The difference was obvious to a rookie fan.

Gary

[dj_bytedisaster]

Seriously, in this forum you simply can't go to bed. This thread has one post per day and the 5 hours I went to sleep all hell breaks lose. I want to play, too :p

There is little doubt that Indycar as it is now, isn't the optimum package. The cars are too equal and we have too few manufacturers. Most of the greatest moments in racing that I remember came as a result of car differences and/or drivers.

Take the Donington F1 race in 1993. Sena creaming the lot in a hopeless McLaren. Same for Schumacher 1996 in Barcelona in that dog of a Ferrari. Both these drives would have faded to history if it wasn't for the fact that they were achieved in woefully uncompetitive cars. Everytime a Minardi scored points in F1 made me happy, because they were everybody's favourite underdog. For that to work, however, you need underdogs.
Same with drivers. The only thing that is keeping me interested in Indycars is the lineup. I got hooked on CART when Mansell went there and Alex Zanardi sent the ratings through the roof in Europe. Back then even local broadcasters in Germany covered CART races. I watched most of the 2001 season on a free-to-air channel that spent the rest of its time showing oompha music shows and regional car fairs. These days I can't even watch it on pay TV, because it isn't shown and I have to rely on pirated live streams if I want to see it at all.

What Indy needs is more technical competition. Someone kick Roger Penske until he starts manufacturing his own chassis again. Then bring in Panoz, Lola, G-Force, Riley - whoever. Then go international again. 2 European races (Eurospeedway, Monza), 2 asian (Fuji, Motegi) and one or two south/central american races (Rio, Mexico City) should do the trick. If Indy then managed to get some big names in, it would be perfect. I wonder what it would take to lure someone like Schumacher or Loeb. If I was in charge of the series I would stop at nothing to try and convince S. Loeb to at least try his luck at the Indy 500. That in itself would be a PR gold mine. CART has proven in 2003 that it is possible to build a specially adapted car for Alex Zanardi. Another gold mine. And Schumacher is still on Mercedes' payroll. Bring Mercedes back and luring in Schumacher will be a helluva lot easier.

With F1 seemingly heading down the turbo alley from 2014. What stops Indycar from adopting a similar if not the same engine formula. Both Honda and Chevy have extensive experience in building turbo engines and Indycar could establish themselves as a step-stone to F1 for both drivers and engine manufacturers.

All wild ideas, but one is allowed to dream...

[FIAT1]

You have no idea what SCCA amateur racing is do you? Those people are racers. They do it because they love the sport and most participate at great sacrifice to their personal finances. Stop on by at an event and I'll introduce you to some real racers.

I didn't say nothing against amateur racing, but I don't think that top level open wheel formula as Indycar should be one.

[FIAT1]

After having gone to races myself for many years, finally one year I was able to convince my father to go to his first race. It was the year that Cadillac went racing again in IMSA/ALMS (I forget who was the sanctioning body then). It was also the year my dad finally got a Cadillac. He really enjoyed the race. So much so, that latter that year we also went to see the SCCA runoffs. On the way back home Dad commented about how much more "racey those guys and gals were than the race we saw earlier in the season." The difference was obvious to a rookie fan.

Gary

I think that lawn mower racing guys are racey and fun to watch, my local go cart club has some racey kids, on occasion I'm very racy on the local expressway and that's fine. What is not fine is that top American racing series adopts that type formula of spec club amateur operation. People have spoken in big numbers and lets open competition and bring Indy and a car to the top level competition where it belongs.

[Jag_Warrior]

You have a point about the drivers. Where CART and later the IRL failed (IMO) is they tried going with a B2B model. They forgot about the fans and what attracted them. Both the teams and the series were working on getting budgets via inter relationships with businesses and forgot about bringing larger audiences to the show. Then we had the split which divided and alienated the fans that were there. Not so many fans anymore and the B2B model started to fall apart because the fans were always most of the reason businesses were there.

I agree with all of this. I would just add that on the B2B front, CART (and maybe the IRL/ICS) hurt itself with extremely poor sponsor relations. There was a questionnaire sent to sponsors and CART got marks that were about the lowest of the major series: NASCAR, NHRA, ALMS/IMSA, etc. My former company was in CART mostly for B2B reasons. For the most part, we were there to be around the companies that we did business with and those we wanted to do business with. The fanbase, TV numbers and attendance didn't really matter so much to us. But yeah, as the host/primary sponsors went away, we then went away too. I'm not sure what they're doing now, but we/they eventually went to NASCAR - as so many other companies did. The B2B was there. And the sponsor exposure value was there. All of the negative PR created by the split didn't help either. That's why most (smart) companies stay out of politics, no matter where their loyalties lie.


Yes, the cars aren't as good looking or as fast as they could be. The racing is pretty darn good though. Ask yourself this - how long did it take USAC and then CART to build a series which attracted mass appeal? Remember that Indy type cars, except for the 500, were very much a niche sport in the '70s and early '80s. It took a decade to build to what it was in the late '80s and early '90s. And that was when there were limited TV alternatives for viewers. It was the big three networks or nothing. Anyone who thinks that sexy cars or new lap records are magic bullets is fooling themselves. It's gonna be a looong road back folks.

Yes, it took awhile to build CART up to what it became. But CART had a great base to build on. It had a fantastic cast of characters, in former Indy 500 winners, some solid homegrown talent, several F1 world driving champions and quiet a few A-list former F1 drivers. Plus, Indy was still mega popular. Indy back then was as popular as the Daytona 500 is now. And let's be honest, the cars of that era were pretty darn interesting, if not fascinating. But as I look at this iteration of Indy Car, I'm honestly not sure what they can use as a base. What do they have that they can use to attract people, in the near term or the long term? I'm not going out of my way to be a Debbie Downer. I just don't know the answer to that one. And the sad thing is (based on that pathetic list of possibles and potentials and maybes in that long term strategy list in that other thread), I don't think the people in the big conference room have a clue either.

For over ten years I've been saying it and for ten years I feel like none of the people at IMS get it: addressing costs is fine. But you also have to create or enhance value - and they have not done that. You have to have a product that the market wants. I can surely think of a way to mass produce buggy whips at a very low cost. But if there is not sufficient demand for buggy whips, I'll still go broke, right? And where before the series had maybe three or four major issues to address, now they probably have a dozen or more. Even the best magic bullet can't kill that many problems. Until I see some sign that they are prepared to address the value side of the equation, I'm not believing anything that comes out of IMS. Do these geniuses even understand or care why the TV ratings for Indy continue to spiral down??? With each step down, the series becomes less and less relevant to the public, then the sponsors stop taking calls and then all these guys will know to do is focus on cutting costs even more to make up for the loss of sponsor $.

But hey, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. And I wish them the very best of luck in their future endeavors. That's sort of what I said in my resignation letter when I left the clueless company that I worked for up until the end of 2012. Once the silliness gets to be too much, a fellow just has to start walkin', ya know? Fans don't get paid, so they'll do it with even more ease - as we have seen over the years. :(