Massa vs Kimi?

[ioan]

I agree 100% with you.
I think it's more directed at MS fans rather than Ferrari fans. People who were ferrari fans before MS joined Ferrari support Ferrari, but those who become Ferrari fans during the Michael era, will always be big fans of Schumacher, and rate him highly.

Well I supported Ferrari since I first watched F1 in 1990, I started supporting MS in 1996 when he came to Ferrari and I rate him higher than any other driver.

And I think most of the real Ferrari supporters here felt the same way. After supporting the team no matter the driver MS became a blip that never went away from our red screens. That's why I consider your above point false.

[raphael123]

Well I supported Ferrari since I first watched F1 in 1990, I started supporting MS in 1996 when he came to Ferrari and I rate him higher than any other driver.

And I think most of the real Ferrari supporters here felt the same way. After supporting the team no matter the driver MS became a blip that never went away from our red screens. That's why I consider your above point false.

So do you want Massa to beat Kimi? Or do you just not care as long as it's Ferrari?

Because if Kimi beats Massa, by a greater margin that Michael managed, it would in someway go a long way to dispelling the image of Michael as some kind of racing god - a talent which could never be matched. Especially when we see Massa, who was all but a match for Schumacher by the end of the season, is starting from that level this year, while last year he started off quite poorly.

[Valve Bounce]

The Tifosi don't care - they just want to see Ferrari win.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that's true, but the tifosi keep a place in their hearts for one little Canadian in particular.

[ioan]

The Tifosi don't care - they just want to see Ferrari win.

Exactly, as long as there is no MS or another such polarizing driver, I almost don't care. I might have mild preferences for one driver from time to time but it's really by a very small amount and it may change.

[raphael123]

Exactly, as long as there is no MS or another such polarizing driver, I almost don't care. I might have mild preferences for one driver from time to time but it's really by a very small amount and it may change.

Do you agree with this - If Kimi beats Massa, by a greater margin that Michael managed, it would in someway go a long way to dispelling the image of Michael as some kind of racing god - a talent which could never be matched. Especially when we see Massa, who was all but a match for Schumacher by the end of the season, is starting from that level this year, while last year he started off quite poorly

??

[ioan]

Do you agree with this - If Kimi beats Massa, by a greater margin that Michael managed, it would in someway go a long way to dispelling the image of Michael as some kind of racing god - a talent which could never be matched. Especially when we see Massa, who was all but a match for Schumacher by the end of the season, is starting from that level this year, while last year he started off quite poorly

??

Why is that detractors need to talk more about MS than his fans? :rolleyes:
Are you people bored to death because of the 4 weeks break or what?!

I do not guess the future and I don't take bets and so on..., I just watch F1 and discuss facts after those happen.

[jens]

I wonder where does that myth come from that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1. Can you explain, how are drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Heidfeld slower than Räikkönen?

[Dzeidzei]

I wonder where does that myth come from that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1. Can you explain, how are drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Heidfeld slower than Räikkönen?

I think by definition a driver is slower, if he is not as quick :)

[jas123f1]

I wonder where does that myth come from that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1. Can you explain, how are drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Heidfeld slower than Räikkönen?

I don’t think it’s any idea to say who is fastest today, but when looking on the statistic is Kimi fast maybe fastest and probably he is fastest also today in a right car.

Fastest laps:
Kimi: 20 (108 GPs)
Alonso: 8 (91 GPs)
Massa (3) 73 (GPs)
Nick: 2 (119 GPs)

Fastest lap this year:
Kimi: 1
Hamilton: 1
Massa: 1

[ioan]

So Kimi wasn't the fastest one until the end of last season! :D

[Valve Bounce]

I wonder where does that myth come from that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1. Can you explain, how are drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Heidfeld slower than Räikkönen?

Yeah!! because Kimi is faster :p :

[Finni]

I wonder where does that myth come from that Kimi is the fastest driver in F1. Can you explain, how are drivers like Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Heidfeld slower than Räikkönen?

It would be wrong to set Kimi ahead of Alonso but Kimi and Alonso are arguably the two best drivers in F1 last years (with Schumacher). Kimi so far has beated his all-team-mates since his rookie year. He used to be 30 sec faster than Montoya and Coulthard per race very often and never was clearly slower. For comparison Massa was beated by his team-mates. Montoya was rated as top 3 driver of F1 quite largely before Kimi crushed his career. Also Coulthard looked like an amateur with Kimi but since that he has been quite ok.

And you also can ask from Ron Dennis why he took Kimi instead of Heidfeld even if they had some kind of provisional contact to Heidfeld.

[jas123f1]

So Kimi wasn't the fastest one until the end of last season! :D

Yes it's true. Schumi has 76 fastest laps during his F1-career, which is a record, but when looking to the 2 latest years Kimi was better with his 12 fastest laps against Schumi's 10. :)

[raphael123]

Why is that detractors need to talk more about MS than his fans? :rolleyes:
Are you people bored to death because of the 4 weeks break or what?!

I do not guess the future and I don't take bets and so on..., I just watch F1 and discuss facts after those happen.

I wasn't asking you to guess the future, or take bets. I was simply asking you if 'X' happened, what would you make of it.

It wasn't a hard question. If you don't feel capable of replying to a simple question that's fine :)

Anyway, Kimi may have more fastest laps, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's the quickest. Most of these opinions can only be constructed from watching the actual races, not just looking at the facts like some individuals tend to. The facts give you 50% of a story.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah!! the rest is fiction (like X) :p :

[CaptainRaiden]

Kimi on the other hand drove most of his career in a top team and managed to come from the back to the front when driving the 2005 McLaren which was a very very fast car when didn't fall apart.
On the other hand he did nothing extraordinary this year in the Ferrari, he only won when starting first (like Felipe, and like Fernando after the perfect start).

I say Kimi and Felipe are almost the same level, really closely matched, with Felipe being the fastest and Kimi being the coolest of them.

How conveniently can you forget Bahrain 2006, where Kimi came from the back of the field to finish on the podium in that wretched MP4-21.

Spanish GP of 2006, Kimi was running consistently in 5th and finished the race in the same position. Watching the race, it would not look like a big deal, but when you read the interview of Mclaren Engineers at that time, they mentioned that the Mclaren that day had no business running that high in the order. The car handled like a b***, the aero was not proving efficient at all, the car wasn't able to work it's tyres as it should have. As good a driver Montoya is, he was running in 13th with the same car and eventually retired. But Kimi managed to muscle that car to 5th. According to Kimi's engineers, that was the best race of his career, even more so than the obvious Japanese GP of 2005.

While all Massa has been able to do is win races from pole in the fastest car on the grid. Just because he beat MS in some races towards the end of last year, doesn't automatically make him a better driver than Kimi or equal to him. I still think Kimi has the edge, and will show it this season sooner or later.

It would be better to compare both of them at the end of the season, because as of now Kimi is 5 points ahead and equal in terms of wins in a team in which Felipe already has a 1 year advantage.

But still, let's just wait till the end of the season. I don't mind waiting that long to point and laugh. :p

[ArrowsFA1]

Now that Kimi has the car more to his liking (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58605)) it will be interesting to see how the battle of the Ferrari team-mates progresses in the coming races.

[Valve Bounce]

Anyone who thinks Massa is faster is always free to tip Massa ahead of Kimi. ;)

[janneppi]

I'm going on a limb here and say that i expect Kimi to be more or less on par with Massa in Spain quali. Certainly it would take more effort or me to come up with plausable excuses if he fails to impress. :p :

[raphael123]

While all Massa has been able to do is win races from pole in the fastest car on the grid. Just because he beat MS in some races towards the end of last year, doesn't automatically make him a better driver than Kimi or equal to him. I still think Kimi has the edge, and will show it this season sooner or later.

It would be better to compare both of them at the end of the season, because as of now Kimi is 5 points ahead and equal in terms of wins in a team in which Felipe already has a 1 year advantage.


That's ignoring the fact Kimi has had perfect reliability, while Massa had to start from the back of the grid in Oz.

Don't get me wrong, I fully expect Kimi to beat Massa come the end of the season. But if your going to say 'Kimi is beating Massa even though he has less experience in that team', you should also take into account Kimi has had 3 races with no reliability issue, Massa hasn't. The picture you were portraying with biased. I think the pace Massa was showing before his engine failure in Australia was suggesting that Massa was the quicker of the two, as he was in Bahrain.

Massa is showing he's a good driver, but he's also showing he isn't a great driver. He has, really, had the car to win the opening 3 races. Ok the first one wasn't his fault, but he should really have won Malaysia, and then he did good in Bahrain. Kimi too, in that car should have been capable of at least challenging for victory, but apart from Oz where he had a clear car advantage, he hasn't. I'm sure that Kimi will settle into the team though sooner rather than later, and he will go on to win the title, unless Massa steps his game up another level.

[CaptainRaiden]

That's ignoring the fact Kimi has had perfect reliability, while Massa had to start from the back of the grid in Oz.

I wouldn't say that Kimi has had perfect reliability. Remember that he was having engine overheating issues towards the end of Australian GP, which forced him and Ferrari to go for a conservative strategy in Malaysia by lowering his engine revs and running lesser wing. He still was able to finish higher than Massa, albeit it was more due to Massa's mistake while chasing Hamilton, but even then Kimi held his composure and finished third.

Starting from the back of the grid in the fastest car and managing only 6th in Oz does not fair well for Massa, because just last year Kimi finished 3rd coming from the back of the grid in the third fastest car.


Don't get me wrong, I fully expect Kimi to beat Massa come the end of the season. But if your going to say 'Kimi is beating Massa even though he has less experience in that team', you should also take into account Kimi has had 3 races with no reliability issue, Massa hasn't. The picture you were portraying with biased. I think the pace Massa was showing before his engine failure in Australia was suggesting that Massa was the quicker of the two, as he was in Bahrain.

Correction, it was a gearbox failure, and some engineers said it was due to Massa going too aggressively over the kerbs, still that is not confirmed yet so it could be a simple mechanical failure as well. And i don't think Massa was faster than Kimi in Oz before his gearbox failure. Kimi was faster than him in saturday morning practice, in Q1 and in Q2 as well before Massa had that failure. Stands a chance that Massa would have been unable to beat Kimi in Q3 as well. Massa wasn't faster than Kimi for even one moment during that weekend. He was only faster during Friday free practice, that's it.

Apart from that, like it has been said in his thread several times already, Kimi wasn't happy with his car's handling at all, since it didn't suit his style. Now it does, and in his latest interview he sounds the most confident i have heard him since this season started. Let's see what both of them are able to do now, only 3 more days to go. ;)

[raphael123]

I wouldn't say that Kimi has had perfect reliability. Remember that he was having engine overheating issues towards the end of Australian GP, which forced him and Ferrari to go for a conservative strategy in Malaysia by lowering his engine revs and running lesser wing. He still was able to finish higher than Massa, albeit it was more due to Massa's mistake while chasing Hamilton, but even then Kimi held his composure and finished third.

Kimi has 100% perfect reliability in that he has finished every session which he must have the same engine, which is qualifying and the race. Yes, he did have a slightly weaker engine. Todt said it was costing him maybe 0.1s a lap. I don't think it would have made a big difference to his 3rd position.

As you say, if it wasn't for Massa's mistake, I think it's fair to assume Massa would have beaten Kimi.


Starting from the back of the grid in the fastest car and managing only 6th in Oz does not fair well for Massa, because just last year Kimi finished 3rd coming from the back of the grid in the third fastest car.


Oh please. Overtaking was near much impossible this year in Oz! Last year it was an overtaking festival it was happening so much. Plus Kimi came from the back of the grid? Did he? :dozey: I don't remember that. I thought he started near the front, and finished 2nd.



Correction, it was a gearbox failure, and some engineers said it was due to Massa going too aggressively over the kerbs, still that is not confirmed yet so it could be a simple mechanical failure as well. And i don't think Massa was faster than Kimi in Oz before his gearbox failure. Kimi was faster than him in saturday morning practice, in Q1 and in Q2 as well before Massa had that failure. Stands a chance that Massa would have been unable to beat Kimi in Q3 as well. Massa wasn't faster than Kimi for even one moment during that weekend. He was only faster during Friday free practice, that's it.


It hasn't been confirmed? How much longer do we have to wait for them to know if it was because MAssa was too agressive over the kerbs? It's been 2 month :dozey: I haven't personally heard any of this. Where is your source? pitpass.com :dozey: ?

And we we look at the practice sessions, Felipe beat Kimi 2 to 1. Q1 doesn't really count concerning the top teams, they usually use the hard tyres, and just aim for a Top 16 time. Q2 would be more relevant, but your claim is false, I don't think Massa completed a time did he?

So when you look at things really, if you compare who was quicker before Massa's engine failure, the answer is Massa, apart from sat morning where kimi went quicker.



Apart from that, like it has been said in his thread several times already, Kimi wasn't happy with his car's handling at all, since it didn't suit his style. Now it does, and in his latest interview he sounds the most confident i have heard him since this season started. Let's see what both of them are able to do now, only 3 more days to go. ;)


I agree, I think as soon as Kimi has got to hands with the car, he will be the man leading the ferrari line, and should beat Massa comfortably so. At least as much as Schumacher was.

[Garry Walker]

Such as?

Mistakes in qualifying at Bahrain and Monza. Stupidity at Hungary in practise and crashing into Doornbos at Turkey in the FP.
But those in races: Went off track at Imola trying to pressure Schumi. Went off track twice at Hockhenheim, and had to use teamorders to keep Fisi behind. Went off track at Turkey in the first few laps. Went to gravel at Shanghai once and also ran wide, which let Schumi pass him. Disgraceful performance at Indy.


Correction, it was a gearbox failure, and some engineers said it was due to Massa going too aggressively over the kerbs,

Find a link for the support of your theory or admit you were bull****ting.
The reality is that the gearbox broke because the engineers had calibrated something wrong and it was lacking the 7th gear.

[ioan]

Find a link for the support of your theory or admit you were bull****ting.
The reality is that the gearbox broke because the engineers had calibrated something wrong and it was lacking the 7th gear.

I thought it was an electronic problem with that gearbox.

[raphael123]

Mistakes in qualifying at Bahrain and Monza. Stupidity at Hungary in practise and crashing into Doornbos at Turkey in the FP.

That cost him a lot of points?
Bahrain he got the 10pts. And mistake in Monza qualifying? I'm not even going to argue with you on that. Even the FIA knew how wrong it was to penalise him as they changed the wording of the rule!!

His 'games' with Doornbos weren't very clever though your right. But no more stupid than Schumacher's 'accident' getting to the grid in China that year. But anyway, those mistakes cost Alonso 0pts. If they his big mistakes, that's pretty impressive.



But those in races: Went off track at Imola trying to pressure Schumi. Went off track twice at Hockhenheim, and had to use teamorders to keep Fisi behind. Went off track at Turkey in the first few laps. Went to gravel at Shanghai once and also ran wide, which let Schumi pass him. Disgraceful performance at Indy.


That's the thing with Alonso, his mistakes don't cost him many points if any. He went wide trying to get pass Schumacher, but he does it without it costing him points. I'd rather see that than to just wait for Schumacher to make a mistake. I don't remember him going off in Hockenheim :dozey: .


Team orders? I think every team does when a title is at stake at the end of the season. It's like saying 'the team gave him new tyres for qualifying'....well....so does the opposition :dozey: Plus I'm not sure what team-orders, but in China, Fisichella finished above Alonso in the end.


Find a link for the support of your theory or admit you were bull****ting.
The reality is that the gearbox broke because the engineers had calibrated something wrong and it was lacking the 7th gear.

:up: I'd like to see a link too.

[CaptainRaiden]

Todt said it was costing him maybe 0.1s a lap. I don't think it would have made a big difference to his 3rd position.

I'm quite sure Todt mentioned Kimi losing upto 0.3 to 0.4 seconds per lap, and that could've made a huge difference to Kimi's race.


Oh please. Overtaking was near much impossible this year in Oz! Last year it was an overtaking festival it was happening so much. Plus Kimi came from the back of the grid? Did he? I don't remember that. I thought he started near the front, and finished 2nd.

In the Bahrain GP of 2006, Kimi started from 22nd, dead last with a huge load of fuel, and came through to finish third behind Alonso and Schumacher. That's majorly because he screwed up his qualifying with an accident in Q1. That performance prompted many to say that probably the Mclaren was the fastest car, a theory which was proved wrong later anyway. So if he can do it in the third fastest car, Massa should be able to do so in the fastest car, shouldn't he? If you claim he is faster than Kimi.

And please, the "amount of overtaking this year" excuse is just a sorry one. Massa overtook a lot of slower cars, but spent a good amount of time stuck behind Barrichello's Earth loving-mineral water guzzling lawn mower Honda. If he can't overtake THAT, oh boy, oh boy!


Q2 would be more relevant, but your claim is false, I don't think Massa completed a time did he?

Massa did complete a time, and it was slower than Kimi's.


Find a link for the support of your theory or admit you were bull****ting.
The reality is that the gearbox broke because the engineers had calibrated something wrong and it was lacking the 7th gear.

Like i said, it wasn't confirmed, i was merely mentioning that there was a rumour certainly about Massa going too hard on the kerbs. I have read it, but unfortunately i don't have a link to that. But, i would love to see a solid link to what you are claiming as the reality.

[ioan]

I'm quite sure Todt mentioned Kimi losing upto 0.3 to 0.4 seconds per lap, and that could've made a huge difference to Kimi's race.

Link?

[CaptainRaiden]

Link?

My bad, I admit my mistake. It was actually 0.1 seconds. But in my defense, it is quite an old news, easy to get mixed up. :D

[jjanicke]

How conveniently can you forget Bahrain 2006, where Kimi came from the back of the field to finish on the podium in that wretched MP4-21.

Spanish GP of 2006, Kimi was running consistently in 5th and finished the race in the same position. Watching the race, it would not look like a big deal, but when you read the interview of Mclaren Engineers at that time, they mentioned that the Mclaren that day had no business running that high in the order. The car handled like a b***, the aero was not proving efficient at all, the car wasn't able to work it's tyres as it should have. As good a driver Montoya is, he was running in 13th with the same car and eventually retired. But Kimi managed to muscle that car to 5th. According to Kimi's engineers, that was the best race of his career, even more so than the obvious Japanese GP of 2005.

While all Massa has been able to do is win races from pole in the fastest car on the grid. Just because he beat MS in some races towards the end of last year, doesn't automatically make him a better driver than Kimi or equal to him. I still think Kimi has the edge, and will show it this season sooner or later.

It would be better to compare both of them at the end of the season, because as of now Kimi is 5 points ahead and equal in terms of wins in a team in which Felipe already has a 1 year advantage.

But still, let's just wait till the end of the season. I don't mind waiting that long to point and laugh. :p

well actually Massa has 2 years of experience with Ferrari. He tested for an entire season with them in 2003.

Other than that I couldn't agree more.


That's ignoring the fact Kimi has had perfect reliability, while Massa had to start from the back of the grid in Oz.

Don't get me wrong, I fully expect Kimi to beat Massa come the end of the season. But if your going to say 'Kimi is beating Massa even though he has less experience in that team', you should also take into account Kimi has had 3 races with no reliability issue, Massa hasn't. The picture you were portraying with biased. I think the pace Massa was showing before his engine failure in Australia was suggesting that Massa was the quicker of the two, as he was in Bahrain.

Massa is showing he's a good driver, but he's also showing he isn't a great driver. He has, really, had the car to win the opening 3 races. Ok the first one wasn't his fault, but he should really have won Malaysia, and then he did good in Bahrain. Kimi too, in that car should have been capable of at least challenging for victory, but apart from Oz where he had a clear car advantage, he hasn't. I'm sure that Kimi will settle into the team though sooner rather than later, and he will go on to win the title, unless Massa steps his game up another level.

No reliability problems is actually quite far fetched.

He didn't have a radio for the better half of a race, and was running with a compromised engine at Malaysia, after overheating (in part due to not having a radio in Australia).

So all things considered, massa is the guy with the better "race" reliability. Kimi being 5 pts ahead is significant. The Ferrari was leaps and bounds faster than anyone in Australia. yet Massa only managed 5th. Kimi faired far better in similar circumstances, in much inferior equipment.

[raphael123]

I'm quite sure Todt mentioned Kimi losing upto 0.3 to 0.4 seconds per lap, and that could've made a huge difference to Kimi's race.


As you later admit, you were wrong. I was right :p :



In the Bahrain GP of 2006, Kimi started from 22nd, dead last with a huge load of fuel, and came through to finish third behind Alonso and Schumacher. That's majorly because he screwed up his qualifying with an accident in Q1. That performance prompted many to say that probably the Mclaren was the fastest car, a theory which was proved wrong later anyway. So if he can do it in the third fastest car, Massa should be able to do so in the fastest car, shouldn't he? If you claim he is faster than Kimi. And please, the "amount of overtaking this year" excuse is just a sorry one. Massa overtook a lot of slower cars, but spent a good amount of time stuck behind Barrichello's Earth loving-mineral water guzzling lawn mower Honda. If he can't overtake THAT, oh boy, oh boy!


You do realise Bahrain is a track which overtaking occurs in comparison to Oz.
It's like comparing Hungary Vs Monza for overtaking. Saying look, Hill went from 14th to 6th in Monza, and Schumacher couldn't overtake hardly anyone in Hungary, as proof that overtaking is possible. Of course it is, but you have to take into account the different variables, and a completely different race track is a MAJOR variable!! Plus the fact overtaking this year seems all but impossible. As you pointed out, Kimi climbed through the field in Bahrain last year, but this year, how many cars has Kimi overtaken? Even in Malaysia where overtaking is generally possible, Kimi who was closing in on Lewis by over 1sec a lap couldn't get past. Kimi hasn't been able to overtake any cars apart from in the pitstops so far this year. When you look at things this year, out of the Top 5 guys, apart from Massa in Malaysia who overtook some cars who were 3sec a lap slower in Oz, Alonso, Lewis, Kimi and Heidfeld haven't overtaken any cars, apart from at the start. If you want to insist that overtaking is as easy as it ever has been, there's not much point continuing a discussion with someone who doesn't know what they're on about.


Massa did complete a time, and it was slower than Kimi's.

Not according to the Official F1 site he didn't. Where is your source that he lapped a slower lap?



Like i said, it wasn't confirmed, i was merely mentioning that there was a rumour certainly about Massa going too hard on the kerbs. I have read it, but unfortunately i don't have a link to that. But, i would love to see a solid link to what you are claiming as the reality.

What exactly am I claiming? All I'm claiming is that his car let him down, and I hadn't heard anyone say it was a driver error which caused the failure. It's you who are making claims that the mechanical failure was self inflicted. Prove it. Or is it another hazy memory that 'Todt said it was losing Kimi .04 a lap'?

jjanicke


No reliability problems is actually quite far fetched.

He didn't have a radio for the better half of a race, and was running with a compromised engine at Malaysia, after overheating (in part due to not having a radio in Australia).

So all things considered, massa is the guy with the better "race" reliability. Kimi being 5 pts ahead is significant. The Ferrari was leaps and bounds faster than anyone in Australia. yet Massa only managed 5th. Kimi faired far better in similar circumstances, in much inferior equipment.

I'll say it again for those who didn't read what I meant by 100% reliability. 100% reliabilty is when you complete all the sessions in which you use your race engine. That's qualifying and the race for those who don't know. Kimi has completed all 3 qualifying sessions, and all 3 races this year. Therefore his reliability is 100%. Massa has had 1 failure, in Oz. I think it's safe to assume he would have scored at least 8pts that race, which would put him on 22pts, same as the others. If you take away his rookie error in Malaysia, he would be leading the title. Thats why I think Massa has so far been the quicker of the two. Though I fully expect Kimi to gain the upper hand sooner rather than later.

Kimi's not had problem free start, as you say, but I'm sure all the drivers would rather a race without a radio, than an engine failure in qualifying :dozey: To describe Kimi's situation in Oz in comparsion to Massa as 'much inferior equipment' is quite absurb.

I don't care much for who does better between the two. However you have to assume people on here trying to deny the fact Massa has generally had the greater pace from the car are biased. Kimi has done a better job, but he's not had more pace.

[ioan]

Therefore his reliability is 100%. Massa has had 1 failure, in Oz. I think it's safe to assume he would have scored at least 8pts that race, which would put him on 22pts, same as the others.

No, no, you're wrong, he would be 22 points and equal with Kimi, but the other two would have less points in that case! :D

[raphael123]

No, no, you're wrong, he would be 22 points and equal with Kimi, but the other two would have less points in that case! :D

lol true. So Ferrari would be =No1 in the drivers standing. Wow, it feel's strange saying Ferrari and =No1 in the same sentence! Not since 95 have I been able to say that :p :

I think it also goes to show Ferrari have had the car to be leading both championships, due to car performance advantage, but McLaren have so far done a better job.

[jjanicke]

As you later admit, you were wrong. I was right :p :



You do realise Bahrain is a track which overtaking occurs in comparison to Oz.
It's like comparing Hungary Vs Monza for overtaking. Saying look, Hill went from 14th to 6th in Monza, and Schumacher couldn't overtake hardly anyone in Hungary, as proof that overtaking is possible. Of course it is, but you have to take into account the different variables, and a completely different race track is a MAJOR variable!! Plus the fact overtaking this year seems all but impossible. As you pointed out, Kimi climbed through the field in Bahrain last year, but this year, how many cars has Kimi overtaken? Even in Malaysia where overtaking is generally possible, Kimi who was closing in on Lewis by over 1sec a lap couldn't get past. Kimi hasn't been able to overtake any cars apart from in the pitstops so far this year. When you look at things this year, out of the Top 5 guys, apart from Massa in Malaysia who overtook some cars who were 3sec a lap slower in Oz, Alonso, Lewis, Kimi and Heidfeld haven't overtaken any cars, apart from at the start. If you want to insist that overtaking is as easy as it ever has been, there's not much point continuing a discussion with someone who doesn't know what they're on about.



Not according to the Official F1 site he didn't. Where is your source that he lapped a slower lap?



What exactly am I claiming? All I'm claiming is that his car let him down, and I hadn't heard anyone say it was a driver error which caused the failure. It's you who are making claims that the mechanical failure was self inflicted. Prove it. Or is it another hazy memory that 'Todt said it was losing Kimi .04 a lap'?

jjanicke



I'll say it again for those who didn't read what I meant by 100% reliability. 100% reliabilty is when you complete all the sessions in which you use your race engine. That's qualifying and the race for those who don't know. Kimi has completed all 3 qualifying sessions, and all 3 races this year. Therefore his reliability is 100%. Massa has had 1 failure, in Oz. I think it's safe to assume he would have scored at least 8pts that race, which would put him on 22pts, same as the others. If you take away his rookie error in Malaysia, he would be leading the title. Thats why I think Massa has so far been the quicker of the two. Though I fully expect Kimi to gain the upper hand sooner rather than later.

Kimi's not had problem free start, as you say, but I'm sure all the drivers would rather a race without a radio, than an engine failure in qualifying :dozey: To describe Kimi's situation in Oz in comparsion to Massa as 'much inferior equipment' is quite absurb.

I don't care much for who does better between the two. However you have to assume people on here trying to deny the fact Massa has generally had the greater pace from the car are biased. Kimi has done a better job, but he's not had more pace.


But completing all the sessions has nothing to do with points. Completing the race has everything to do with making points, and in this case Massa faired much better reliablity than Kimi when it counted.

[ioan]

But completing all the sessions has nothing to do with points. Completing the race has everything to do with making points, and in this case Massa faired much better reliablity than Kimi when it counted.

It might be a bit more difficult to collect more points when starting dead last (because of bad reliability that affected Qualifying that in turn affects the race) as opposed to first.
If you refer to Malaysia than I think that a 0.1 seconds/lap hardware related disadvantage means not that much as you are trying to suggest, not to mention that in the last part of the race Kimi's engine was allowed to rev at max (that's it 19000 rpm as from this season) in an attempt to catch Hamilton.

As it is Felipe was hugely handicapped in Oz because of that gearbox problem, and as pointed out by some, the situation could be different if it wasn't for that misfortune.

[CaptainRaiden]

You do realise Bahrain is a track which overtaking occurs in comparison to Oz.
It's like comparing Hungary Vs Monza for overtaking. Saying look, Hill went from 14th to 6th in Monza, and Schumacher couldn't overtake hardly anyone in Hungary, as proof that overtaking is possible. Of course it is, but you have to take into account the different variables, and a completely different race track is a MAJOR variable!! Plus the fact overtaking this year seems all but impossible. As you pointed out, Kimi climbed through the field in Bahrain last year, but this year, how many cars has Kimi overtaken? Even in Malaysia where overtaking is generally possible, Kimi who was closing in on Lewis by over 1sec a lap couldn't get past. Kimi hasn't been able to overtake any cars apart from in the pitstops so far this year. When you look at things this year, out of the Top 5 guys, apart from Massa in Malaysia who overtook some cars who were 3sec a lap slower in Oz, Alonso, Lewis, Kimi and Heidfeld haven't overtaken any cars, apart from at the start. If you want to insist that overtaking is as easy as it ever has been, there's not much point continuing a discussion with someone who doesn't know what they're on about.

Did you just seriously say that comparing Australia with Bahrain is like comparing Hungary with Monza? I understand that Albert Park may not be a great place for overtaking, but it's certainly not as bad as Hungary! :rolleyes: Bahrain itself is not exactly known for great overtaking.

So, if Massa is not able to overtake many cars coming from the back of the grid, it automatically becomes a bad track for overtaking? He was stuck behind those wretched Hondas of Button and Barrichello for the majority of the race, and then behind Fisichella for the latter part. Does that mean Button and Barrichello are better drivers? Or Massa simply sucks at overtaking?

Hell, Nico Rosberg was able to pull a great overtaking move driving a Williams on Ralf's Toyota to snatch 7th. And Massa couldn't get past two Hondas on the same track in the fastest friggin car? Wow, what a driver. Please stop giving silly excuses! If you still think Massa did great, your ignorance is unsurpassed.

That again cements the fact that Massa can only do anything considerable from a pole position, anywhere down the order, he is done like a turkey. When has he ever won a race from any other position than the pole? There has been a lot of overtaking manouveres going on in the midfield this year, the top cars really haven't been that close for us to see any kinda overtaking moves. Massa certainly proved in Malaysia how to screw your race, bogged by a rookie. Oh and Kimi wasn't close enough to Lewis in the dying stages of Sepang to try and pull off an overtaking move. The gap remained at 1 second if i remember.

While you admit that Kimi will beat Massa easily, sooner than later. You also have to realize that whatever pace Massa has showed thus far, has to do a lot with him already being with the team for two years. As jjannicke said, the test driver in 2003 and 2nd driver for 2006. 2007 will officially be his 3rd year, He knows the team, he knows how the Bridgestones behave, atleast he is familiar with the characteristics. Whereas Kimi last drove on Bridgestone rubber in 2001, plus the car was not to his liking for the first 3 races. Even after winning in Oz, he said that the car does not suit his style to the T.

For Kimi it's only the first year for him at Ferrari, and yet he is 5 points ahead. Oh, and the Malaysian GP was Massa's fault, and his fault only, he screwed it up for himself. While Kimi hasn't made a single mistake so far this season. Considering all of that, i would say Kimi has shown better pace than Massa so far, won't you agree?



Like i said, it wasn't confirmed, i was merely mentioning that there was a rumour certainly about Massa going too hard on the kerbs. I have read it, but unfortunately i don't have a link to that. But, i would love to see a solid link to what you are claiming as the reality.

That was directed towards Garry Walker, and not raphael123. Please check the previous post before responding. You got it all mixed up.

[raphael123]

Did you just seriously say that comparing Australia with Bahrain is like comparing Hungary with Monza? I understand that Albert Park may not be a great place for overtaking, but it's certainly not as bad as Hungary! :rolleyes: Bahrain itself is not exactly known for great overtaking.


Ummm yes. Bahrain is known for being a circuit where overtaking is a possibility. Albert Park, and in particular this year, we saw nearly no overtaking. That is a fact. Even in mid-field they just seemed to follow each other for ages, unless you count the Honda drivers swapping position because they were holding each other up as 'overtaking'. I think apart from the odd Massa move, and Rosberg, I didn't see any overtaking.


So, if Massa is not able to overtake many cars coming from the back of the grid, it automatically becomes a bad track for overtaking? He was stuck behind those wretched Hondas of Button and Barrichello for the majority of the race, and then behind Fisichella for the latter part. Does that mean Button and Barrichello are better drivers? Or Massa simply sucks at overtaking?

When there is hardly any overtaking at all in that race, I think it goes a long way to suggest overtaking was incredibly difficult in that race. Why you think that would mean I think Fisichella, Button and Barichello are better drivers I don't know :dozey:


Hell, Nico Rosberg was able to pull a great overtaking move driving a Williams on Ralf's Toyota to snatch 7th. And Massa couldn't get past two Hondas on the same track in the fastest friggin car? Wow, what a driver. Please stop giving silly excuses! If you still think Massa did great, your ignorance is unsurpassed.

I don't think I've said he did great. I'm just pointing out the fact he did a good solid job, when overtaking was hard. And he did get passed the Honda's, and he did overtake one of them I think on the track. Apart from Rosberg's move though, and Massa's overtaking in the early part of the race, there literally was hardly no overtaking, even in midfield. The race was the most boring so far this year, only overshadowed by the fact the press had Hamilton to drool over.


That again cements the fact that Massa can only do anything considerable from a pole position, anywhere down the order, he is done like a turkey. When has he ever won a race from any other position than the pole? There has been a lot of overtaking manouveres going on in the midfield this year, the top cars really haven't been that close for us to see any kinda overtaking moves. Massa certainly proved in Malaysia how to screw your race, bogged by a rookie.


I agree, Massa's strength is starting from pole, and running away with it. Have I said otherwise? :dozey:


Oh and Kimi wasn't close enough to Lewis in the dying stages of Sepang to try and pull off an overtaking move. The gap remained at 1 second if i remember.


The gap remained 1sec behind, not because Hamilton suddenly sped up, but because he couldn't overtake due to the aerodynamics. Kimi was closing in on Kimi 1sec a lap, you don't think he suddenly slowed down. Malaysia, where overtaking is definately possible, even Kimi in a much quicker car couldn't get pass the rookie who stuffed up Massa's race!


While you admit that Kimi will beat Massa easily, sooner than later. You also have to realize that whatever pace Massa has showed thus far, has to do a lot with him already being with the team for two years. As jjannicke said, the test driver in 2003 and 2nd driver for 2006. 2007 will officially be his 3rd year, He knows the team, he knows how the Bridgestones behave, atleast he is familiar with the characteristics. Whereas Kimi last drove on Bridgestone rubber in 2001, plus the car was not to his liking for the first 3 races. Even after winning in Oz, he said that the car does not suit his style to the T.


I perfectly understand that. I don't think I've stated otherwise have I? I think once Kimi settles into the team he shall beat Massa. You seem to think I'm some anti-Kimi and big Massa supporter when I'm not. I'm completely and utterly neutral regarding this (which you clearly aren't). It's obvious for me to see that Kimi has done a better job so far, but Massa has blatantly had more speed so far in the opening 3 races. However, as you say, it's to be expected as Kimi settles into the team and finds his feet with a new car :)


For Kimi it's only the first year for him at Ferrari, and yet he is 5 points ahead. Oh, and the Malaysian GP was Massa's fault, and his fault only, he screwed it up for himself. While Kimi hasn't made a single mistake so far this season. Considering all of that, i would say Kimi has shown better pace than Massa so far, won't you agree?


No, Kimi hasn't shown better pace. Massa had more pace in Oz before his reliability problem, Massa had the upperhand over Kimi in Malaysia until he f*cked up, and Massa completely dominated Kimi all weekend in Bahrain.

If you ask me who has done a better job? I'd go for Kimi, because though Kimi hasn't set the world alight with his pace, he has done a conservative, but very solid job of bringing the car home. He hasn't made any major mistakes like Massa did in Malaysia, and he's leading the title.

Why can't you just accept that? The majority of the paddock would agree that Massa has had the upperhand over Kimi speed wise. But Kimi has done a better job. Though Massa losing at least 5pts in Oz wasn't his fault.

Being quicker, and doing a better job don't necessarily go hand in hand. It's good to be quick, but you got to bring it home and be quick. Massa hasn't been able to do that consistently yet.

:)

[race aficionado]

Score another one for Massa after today's qualifying.
Kimi did say he felt better in his car but Massa just keeps on putting it in the front come qualifying.

understatement of the day:
Man! will it be a fun race tomorrow!

race

:s mokin:

[Roamy]

Hey Massa is really fast - look how long it too JV to get up to him. Kimi still has a few races in my estimation to catchup but he ain't far off now. But everyone seems to discredit Massa. This driver is coming into his own and you may be looking at a WDC.

[jens]

And the "fastest driver in the world" was outqualified once again! Outright speed is an important issue in qualifying and if Kimi wants to keep the title of "fastest driver", he needs to try to do something with his quali performances quickly.

[wedge]

I'd be happy to admit that Massa looks the better over a lap compared to Kimi, but only just! Though Kimi reckons his car is better in races.

Lets just hope Kimi doesn't fall asleep like he did in Bahrain!

[Shalafi]

Kimi was happier with car performance than before but had problems in third sector and is not totally comfortable with the car yet. Still, I have to admit that I have underestimated Massa somewhat. I expect after couple of races more that Kimi will be comfortable with the car but the fight with Massa will still be very tight. Felipe is a very fast driver, there is no question about that.

[ioan]

Kimi was happier with car performance than before but had problems in third sector and is not totally comfortable with the car yet. Still, I have to admit that I have underestimated Massa somewhat. I expect after couple of races more that Kimi will be comfortable with the car but the fight with Massa will still be very tight. Felipe is a very fast driver, there is no question about that.

Fair enough! :)

[F1boat]

Massa is very fast, he continues to amaze me, but I think that McLaren could have an advantage tomorrow. I am very surprised that Felipe bested both Fernando and Kimi.

[Ian McC]

As always, with qualifying on race fuel we can't be sure on who is quickest until tomorrow.

[Shalafi]

As always, with qualifying on race fuel we can't be sure on who is quickest until tomorrow.

No, but I expect very similar tactics, maximum of some 3 lap difference, no more.

[Shalafi]

Fair enough! :)

And you can believe that this was a very difficult statement to make... ;) I still believe that Kimi is overall better racer than Massa...But if he doesnt soon begin to beat him at qualifying I will be very disappointed by overestimated Kimi for so many years...

[futuretiger9]

Massa is very fast, he continues to amaze me, but I think that McLaren could have an advantage tomorrow. I am very surprised that Felipe bested both Fernando and Kimi.


Massa has been impressive. Whenever he is confronted with a big challenge, he seems able to meet it successfully. True, he makes the odd mistake, but overall he is more than holding his own in esteemed company.

I agree that McLaren seem to have a small advantage for the race tomorrow. It should be a great duel between the two top teams, with the BMWs snapping at their heels.

[race aficionado]

Isn't it also mindblowing everytime you hear, like in this case, that the time difference between first and second in qualifying was JUST 3/100 of a second????

It is mindblowing . . . . whew!!!!!

[Valve Bounce]

Very interesting point. I read during quals that Bridgestone have brought the medium and hard tyres to Barcelona for the race and there is very little difference between them. I just wonder who will start on which tyres and who will be thinking of one stopping?

[jjanicke]

My gut tells me Hamilton and Kimi will stay out longer than their teammates. Now let's see if they can make up for the heavier fuel load and pass the front runners during the first stint or pit.

Should be a great race tomorrow. It's almost as if the Mclaren's and Ferrari's are perfectly matched.

[jjanicke]

Massa drove a solid race. Bummer with Kimi!! :( Seems like he can't get a break.

[donKey jote]

no pun intended eh? :laugh:

[Scuderia ferrari]

Great race by Massa, great job, two scary moments for me, the first courner (looky nothing broke on his car) and the pit fire which he said he didn't notice. Shame about Kimi, could have been a ferrari 1-2 which would have been fantastic. Massa could rapidly become ferrari's number 1 driver if he is not careful. Could see him winning the championship.

[pole_sitter]

Massa has been with Ferrari much longer than Kimi so he is well-adjusted with the car. Raikkonen on the other hand has a few more races up his sleeve in order to be competitive. Massa has beaten Alonso with Renault last season so I think advantage is with Massa.


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[Viv]

Massa beat Alonso in Renault last year??? Are you talking about a single race or what?

[pole_sitter]

Massa has been with Ferrari much longer than Kimi so he is well-adjusted with the car. Raikkonen on the other hand has a few more races up his sleeve in order to be competitive. Massa has beaten Alonso with Renault last season so I think advantage is with Massa.

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