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The Black Knight
29th March 2013, 13:28
The prospect of this battle deserved a thread of its own I feel.

We have two top quality drivers who are going to be able to push each other to the limit. It's a great sign for Mercedes future.

So here's a summary of what has happened thus far.

Australia - Hamilton was outpaced by Rosberg in all practice and qualifying sessions until finally in Q1 Hamilton put in a storming lap and pipped Rosberg to out-qualify him. This was probably due to the changeable conditions we were witnessing in Oz, otherwise I genuinely feel Rosberg would have out-qualified him. Hard to compare the race as Rosberg retired.

Malaysia - Again Hamilton was outpaced by Rosberg in every single Free practice and qualifying sessions. Similar to Oz, Hamilton put in a storming lap in the last session of qualifying. The questions of whether or not Rosberg would have beaten him is hard to answer since he got held up by Kimi on a flying lap but I've a feeling Hamilton had the better of him here. In the race, although Hamilton was ahead, for most of it Rosberg was about 0.3 tenths of a second quicker than Hamilton per lap and Rosberg was able to make his tires last longer. Rosberg would have finished up on the podium were it not for team orders and ahead of Hamilton.

Now, as the year goes on, it's possible that Hamilton will embed more into the team and gain and edge over Rosberg. On the other hand, Rosberg has shown what he can do and surely, thus far, appears more than a match for Hamilton.

I think Seb will win the WDC again this year though Alonso might have something to say about it, so for me, the Mercedes teammate battle is the most exciting thing on the grid this season.

I can't wait to see how it pans out over the coming year. I also believe that Nico will out-qualify Hamilton in China. That's my tip! :)

Thoughts?

CaptainRaiden
29th March 2013, 13:36
I also believe that Nico will out-qualify Hamilton in China.

I also think that will be the case. That pole lap from Nico last year was something special.

keysersoze
29th March 2013, 13:42
Ever since Nico has been with Mercedes, the first half of his season has been stronger than the second half. Now this may be more of an indictment of Mercedes than Rosberg, but there you have it.

I do feel that Lewis is just a bit stronger psychologically--can push a team to achieve just a bit more than NR. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

dj_bytedisaster
29th March 2013, 13:57
I also think that will be the case. That pole lap from Nico last year was something special.

Doesn't matter. Brawn will bend him over the next piece of furniture again and 'service the account' in public. Rosberg had the chance to put his foot dow, but instead he caved in and obeyed a ridiculous team order. He lost any chance of ever becoming WDC with Mercedes, because he let them bum**** him in favour of Lewis. If they do that in just the second race of the year, why should it be different in - let's say - the 10th race of the season?

pino
29th March 2013, 15:02
I have a great sympathy for Nico but Lewis will easily win this...mark my words ;)

Ranger
29th March 2013, 16:03
Ever since Nico has been with Mercedes, the first half of his season has been stronger than the second half. Now this may be more of an indictment of Mercedes than Rosberg, but there you have it.

I do feel that Lewis is just a bit stronger psychologically--can push a team to achieve just a bit more than NR. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Mercedes, and indeed Brawn GP, have always gone backwards compared to everyone else across a season. I'd be amazed if the same didn't happen this year.

dj_bytedisaster
29th March 2013, 16:29
Mercedes, and indeed Brawn GP, have always gone backwards compared to everyone else across a season. I'd be amazed if the same didn't happen this year.
Brawn GP went backwards because they were essentially cash-strapped and Mercedes went backwards because they had a notorious underachiever like Loic Bigois as a chief designer. Both of these thing don't apply this season. The only variable in the game is, when they are going to give up on this year's car in favour of the 2014 challenger. Contrary to what the big name suggests, Mercedes actually operates on a significantly smaller budget than Ferrari and Red Bull. For that they haven't done too badly in the past.

wedge
29th March 2013, 17:28
Hamilton never got the credit for his dues in Malaysia.

Personally I thought Hamilton just as impressive if not more of the two in Malaysia. He was having to save fuel and more or less kept in touch with RBR but he had to turn the wick down in the final stint.

In fairness I'd say they were equal on race day.

Confirmation that this is a race winning car.

CaptainRaiden
29th March 2013, 17:38
Doesn't matter. Brawn will bend him over the next piece of furniture again and 'service the account' in public. Rosberg had the chance to put his foot dow, but instead he caved in and obeyed a ridiculous team order. He lost any chance of ever becoming WDC with Mercedes, because he let them bum**** him in favour of Lewis. If they do that in just the second race of the year, why should it be different in - let's say - the 10th race of the season?

I don't think a team has anything to gain by disadvantaging one of their drivers, unless Lewis has the number 1 driver clause in his contract. And if that is the case, judging by Ross Brawn's past, and team orders at Ferrari, I don't think Michael Schumacher fans have anything to complain about.

Besides wasn't it the team's fault that Lewis' car was underfueled? Agreed that that's not Rosberg's problem, but it still would have been unfair to Lewis.

The Black Knight
29th March 2013, 17:43
I have a great sympathy for Nico but Lewis will easily win this...mark my words ;)

I'm not as convinced. I think he'll win in the end but not by the huge margin you seem to be suggesting :)

airshifter
29th March 2013, 18:23
It could be a good battle through the season, and I personally think Ross Brawn will allow them to race unless a car preservation order has already taken place. He was very firm when Nico was unhappy, but even explained himself over the radio.

If Nico continues to do so well against Lewis it will raise my impression of his skills. I've been one of the doubters until we saw real competition within the team, but the first two races look positive for Nico.

dj_bytedisaster
29th March 2013, 18:40
I don't think a team has anything to gain by disadvantaging one of their drivers, unless Lewis has the number 1 driver clause in his contract. And if that is the case, judging by Ross Brawn's past, and team orders at Ferrari, I don't think Michael Schumacher fans have anything to complain about.

Besides wasn't it the team's fault that Lewis' car was underfueled? Agreed that that's not Rosberg's problem, but it still would have been unfair to Lewis.

Lewis was dead in the water with his empty fuel tank and no matter who was responsible for it, by staying behind in a car that was miles quicker Nico pretty much did the submission ritual. Massa V2.0

Jag_Warrior
29th March 2013, 20:39
I've liked Nico since he was in GP2. And it's nice to see that, with strong teammates, he continues to up his game... after getting his F1 career off to a rather sublime start. I hope that they continue to push each other. As a fan of both guys, I think that will benefit both drivers and make the seasons to come even more fun to watch.

And if Nico even gets the upper-hand, I think Lewis should start referring to Nico as "Britney" in interviews. I hear he really likes that. :ninja:

driveace
29th March 2013, 20:39
Well he had enough fuel to finish the race .

In my opinion Lewis will become stronger and also be a team player if it's needed ,Nico has been at Mercedes longer and knows all the team better.But maybe the Finn/ German will give Lewis a run for his money this year .And I am not biased by creed or country of their birth either.

tfp
30th March 2013, 00:30
Doesn't matter. Brawn will bend him over the next piece of furniture again and 'service the account' in public. Rosberg had the chance to put his foot dow, but instead he caved in and obeyed a ridiculous team order. He lost any chance of ever becoming WDC with Mercedes, because he let them bum**** him in favour of Lewis. If they do that in just the second race of the year, why should it be different in - let's say - the 10th race of the season?

So you think every race will be a repeat of Malaysia? It would quickly get repetitive if this was the case.

Anyway, if anything, the fact that Nico obeyed the team orders, IMO makes him all the more valuable as a driver. Plenty of drivers (mentioning no names:dozey :) can choose not to listen to their boss but not many can follow the orders and take it on the chin afterwards.

Dont get too upset though. This isnt Massa were talking about, Rosberg will bounce back, dont you worry ;)

dj_bytedisaster
30th March 2013, 03:34
So you think every race will be a repeat of Malaysia? It would quickly get repetitive if this was the case.

Wouldn't you agree that a team order like that must have had a reason? If Mercedes kept Rosberg behind to stroke Lewis' ego by giving him a podium, they will do so again. I just don't buy the whole 'we don't want the to crash into each other'-Spiel. I'm still at a loss to find any good reason to keep the faster driver behind.
I understood it at Austin last year - Massa was cooled down because Fernando needed every point he could get, especially on a weekend were he was not his usual self. (Mind you, that understanding doesn't include the scumbaggery with the grid manipulation)
But we're talking the second of 19 races here. It was either a blatant favouring of Lewis or completely nonsensical.

airshifter
30th March 2013, 03:42
I don't think it's at all nonsensical to at some point, decide that the "race" is over between team drivers and order them to hold station until race end. They are dealing with millions of dollars worth of machinery, and regardless of finishing order the team will at that point have the same amount of constructors championship points. The team gets real money from the constructors points, not the WDC.

dj_bytedisaster
30th March 2013, 05:51
I don't think it's at all nonsensical to at some point, decide that the "race" is over between team drivers and order them to hold station until race end. They are dealing with millions of dollars worth of machinery, and regardless of finishing order the team will at that point have the same amount of constructors championship points. The team gets real money from the constructors points, not the WDC.

All valid points, but at least to the general public it looked as if Nico was significantly faster and didn't need to save on fuel the way Lewis did. Had they let him pass they would still have gotten exactly the same amount of points. If one driver has to turn down his engine because he's marginal on fuel and the other one still has enough juice to go flat out, keeping the latter behind is a completely arbitrary decision with no justification whatsoever.
I've never been a friend of team orders. I didn't like how Eddie Irvine and Rubens Barrichello always keeled over when told to do so, because that takes away from Michael's achievents. One has to put up with it in the hot championship fight in the late season, but this early in the game I think it achieves nothing but putting F1 to shame. How many of us would put up with a football game, where the coach decides, who is allowed to score a goal and who isn't?

henners88
30th March 2013, 11:14
I think Mercedes just wanted both cars to finish the race in 3rd and 4th position. In the previous laps before Ross made his call, both drivers had exchanged positions on a couple of occasions. Lewis was low on fuel and there were still enough laps left to destroy the tyres. It looked unfair on Nico but by controlling both drivers in the gap they had made sure they finished comfortably. There was a large gap in front and behind as Ross mentioned to Nico, so many constructors points were at risk. I wouldn't have blamed Nico for ignoring it as there clearly wasn't a 'multi 109' or a 'multi 910' type message if you consider their racing numbers. I know its coded and would be likely different at Merc anyway.

As it were Nico obeyed and hopefully Lewis will do the same thing in future if placed in the same situation. With both drivers being so close in performance, I think we'll see more of this at some point in the season. :)

AndyL
30th March 2013, 13:43
Wouldn't you agree that a team order like that must have had a reason? If Mercedes kept Rosberg behind to stroke Lewis' ego by giving him a podium, they will do so again. I just don't buy the whole 'we don't want the to crash into each other'-Spiel. I'm still at a loss to find any good reason to keep the faster driver behind.

So why did Red Bull order Vettel to stay behind Webber? Is Webber the de facto number 1 at Red Bull?

tfp
30th March 2013, 14:13
Wouldn't you agree that a team order like that must have had a reason? If Mercedes kept Rosberg behind to stroke Lewis' ego by giving him a podium, they will do so again. I just don't buy the whole 'we don't want the to crash into each other'-Spiel. I'm still at a loss to find any good reason to keep the faster driver behind.
I understood it at Austin last year - Massa was cooled down because Fernando needed every point he could get, especially on a weekend were he was not his usual self. (Mind you, that understanding doesn't include the scumbaggery with the grid manipulation)
But we're talking the second of 19 races here. It was either a blatant favouring of Lewis or completely nonsensical.

Perhaps that wasn't the reason, and they were more worried that nico wouldn't make it to the end through lack of fuel if he attempted to take the fight to the red bulls?
I agree with your statement about in the USA last season. Ferraris trick was a bit sly. But I understand why they did it nonetheless.

Bagwan
30th March 2013, 16:02
All valid points, but at least to the general public it looked as if Nico was significantly faster and didn't need to save on fuel the way Lewis did. Had they let him pass they would still have gotten exactly the same amount of points. If one driver has to turn down his engine because he's marginal on fuel and the other one still has enough juice to go flat out, keeping the latter behind is a completely arbitrary decision with no justification whatsoever.
I've never been a friend of team orders. I didn't like how Eddie Irvine and Rubens Barrichello always keeled over when told to do so, because that takes away from Michael's achievents. One has to put up with it in the hot championship fight in the late season, but this early in the game I think it achieves nothing but putting F1 to shame. How many of us would put up with a football game, where the coach decides, who is allowed to score a goal and who isn't?

It's all risk versus reward in F1 .
To Ross , putting the two side by side was a risk not worth it .

Had the two touched , neither might score .
Allowing them to race also sets up a rivalry early on in the relationship between the two , especially if they did touch .
Nico didn't , in the end , make the move , but he sure looked like he was thinking hard about whether to ignore the order , and this leads me to believe there , indeed , was some agreement about them holding station after the last round of stops .

So , what was to gain ?
There were RedBulls ahead , but too far to get to in the final laps .
If they faltered , they would get them anyway .
They weren't caught from behind even though they were coasting to the end .

So , not much reward , but for individual bragging rights and a few points , which isn't enough , from the team's perspective , until later in the season when , as you've said , there is good enough reason to throw all the weight behind one driver or the other .

They've got two lions , and one just said "I could have won the battle." , and the other just said , "he's right , he could have.", so you have both understanding that they need to trust their team to see the bigger picture .

All is good at Merc .

markabilly
30th March 2013, 16:58
Actually, regardless of whether to turn loose the dogs of war and let them have at it.....the cars are being filled with minimal fuel and can not run flat out to the end of a race......so no orders would be a potential suicide run for both drivers

steveaki13
30th March 2013, 18:59
I think these two seem quite close and as Henners said. I am sure it will be called again like last week in favour of both drivers.

henners88
30th March 2013, 20:34
Good old Lewis is on 'Ant & Decs Saturday night takeaway' doing the introductions right now on ITV. Not sure whether its a team order or not though :)

Valve Bounce
30th March 2013, 23:09
Actually, regardless of whether to turn loose the dogs of war and let them have at it.....the cars are being filled with minimal fuel and can not run flat out to the end of a race......so no orders would be a potential suicide run for both drivers

Absolutely. Without refueling and having to use various grades of crap tyres, this is the only option for teams with two competitive drivers.
You make perfect sense, but then, so do I. :) OMIGOD! I don't believe I said that. :rolleyes:

31st March 2013, 05:46
up top h? ch? top

zako85
31st March 2013, 14:53
Contrary to what the big name suggests, Mercedes actually operates on a significantly smaller budget than Ferrari and Red Bull. For that they haven't done too badly in the past.

But do not discount other enormous resource Mercedes already possesses. Engineers, wind tunnels, and all.

zako85
31st March 2013, 14:58
So why did Red Bull order Vettel to stay behind Webber? Is Webber the de facto number 1 at Red Bull?

IMO, most cool-headed people will say that this was a stupid order to Vettel. Giving either no orders or an order to Webber to let Vettel through would make a lot more sense. At the end of year, Vettel will be RBR's driver who will b fighting for the drivers title, not Webber. To give order to Vettel not to fight for extra seven points was puzzling. I guess Horner's memory of Turkey 2010 is still fresh.

steveaki13
1st April 2013, 20:25
I think it was a case of Red Bull being fair at this stage of the season. I think the team wanted a safe 1-2 after 45odd laps and were not worried at that point who the lead driver was.

Mclaren in 2010 told the drivers to stop racing late on in Turkey, and they are a team that normally lets the drivers race. I think its a fact of wanting a 1-2 rather than titles at this point.

Just My Opinion.

Mia 01
2nd April 2013, 11:05
Mercedes sacked MS and hired Lewis for a zillion of money, Lewis have to be a lot better than MS. Nico knows this, he want to prove them wrong but he cant, because ..... There´s a lot of pressure on the Mercedes upper management and the board.

markabilly
2nd April 2013, 15:21
Absolutely. Without refueling and having to use various grades of crap tyres, this is the only option for teams with two competitive drivers.
You make perfect sense, but then, so do I. :) OMIGOD! I don't believe I said that. :rolleyes:

Don't worry. In the morning you will wake up and be sober.... :D

but F1 will still be F1...... :(

zako85
5th April 2013, 14:00
Lewis was dead in the water with his empty fuel tank and no matter who was responsible for it, by staying behind in a car that was miles quicker Nico pretty much did the submission ritual. Massa V2.0

Sadly I have to agree. If Hamilton was running on empty, then it was his fault, or strategist's fault, or teams fault, or just random bad luck. In any of those cases, I don't still understand how is that justifying giving Rosberg the order to stay behind. Sadly, I think they will treat Rosberg as the number 2. There is no other explanation. I do wonder, why did it matter who finished third in this race. It's not like Hamilton is in position to fight for WDC, or is he?

The resolution to the battle was quite sad. A lot of F1 fans were probably wishing to see the battle of Rosberg and Hamilton driving the same car... which brings us to a quite strange realization. A lot of time time, people are wishing to find out what if Driver A and Driver B could race each other in the same car... (because THEN we would know for sure who is better..) only to find out that this just won't happen in most teams.

A FONDO
5th April 2013, 14:45
Ham vs Ros is not even close to a "battle". They are from different planets. No, rather from different universes.

ShiftingGears
5th April 2013, 15:06
Ham vs Ros is not even close to a "battle". They are from different planets. No, rather from different universes.

One might've assumed that before the season started, but I've not got that impression from the two races so far, at all.

dj_bytedisaster
5th April 2013, 15:14
Ham vs Ros is not even close to a "battle". They are from different planets. No, rather from different universes.

You didn't quite see the race in Sepang, did you?

Bagwan
5th April 2013, 16:13
One might've assumed that before the season started, but I've not got that impression from the two races so far, at all.

Are you assuming that he meant that Ham is the better of the two ?

The Black Knight
5th April 2013, 16:35
Ham vs Ros is not even close to a "battle". They are from different planets. No, rather from different universes.

There isn't much between them at all. In fact, apart from the final Q3 qualifying in both race weekends, Rosberg has been the quicker of the two thus far.

P3ws
5th April 2013, 22:11
I have a great sympathy for Nico but Lewis will easily win this...mark my words ;)

And so they said with MS aswell...

Mia 01
6th April 2013, 07:33
Nico will be the better driver come the end of the year

dj_bytedisaster
6th April 2013, 08:50
Nico will be the better driver come the end of the year

Just as he was in Malaysia. If the team says that overtaking his team mate is verboten, it's a bit of a useless achievement, isn't it?`

henners88
6th April 2013, 09:44
Its good to see a couple of you aren't prepared to give Lewis more than two races to settle into the team and perhaps reach his potential.

P3ws
6th April 2013, 10:27
Ham vs Ros is not even close to a "battle". They are from different planets. No, rather from different universes.

Yes, seems Nico has got the car working better for him than Lewis. Maybe Lewis has a learning curve at the moment...?

dj_bytedisaster
6th April 2013, 12:26
Yes, seems Nico has got the car working better for him than Lewis. Maybe Lewis has a learning curve at the moment...?

Begs the question why his team mate isn't allowed to use his car knowledge advantage. For Mercedes, Malaysia has been quite the PR desaster in Germany. Way to go - first time 3rd and 4th and they completely undo it by blatant race fixing. German media are going ape**** about the race fixing.

A FONDO
6th April 2013, 12:28
Yes, seems Nico has got the car working better for him than Lewis. Maybe Lewis has a learning curve at the moment...?

Lewis will be learning for only 1-2 more races. Then will begin putting 0,5-1s/lap on his teammate.

dj_bytedisaster
6th April 2013, 12:29
Lewis will be learning for only 1-2 more races. Then will begin putting 0,5s/lap on his teammate.

yep and until then he'll be kept artificially infront of his team mate. Why does everybody think that Nico cannot keep up with Lewis? So far he's been way more consistent and faster most of the times. His only problem is that overtaking the golden boy is verboten.

Malbec
6th April 2013, 12:58
German media are going ape**** about the race fixing.

Did they go nuts about Austria 2002 too? ;)

We've only had one race so far where one Merc was told to hold station behind the other. If the positions are swapped and Rosberg has to nurse it home ahead of a quicker Hamilton who is then allowed to pass his teammate by the team then we'll know that Hamilton is being favoured. Until then I think Mercedes were simply playing it safe in Sepang and I don't blame them at all for their actions.

Mercedes have a good problem on their hands. Rosberg to me seems to be the real deal and a match for Lewis. They need to get the most out of them whilst making sure they do not take points off each other and the team. So far they are doing that well.

henners88
6th April 2013, 13:19
It seems the German tabloid press are making far more waves than the inner F1 community concerning this. Hardly surprising though as the British equivalent will use any opportunity to reach out to the more casual fans when something remotely controversial happens.

dj_bytedisaster
6th April 2013, 16:31
Did they go nuts about Austria 2002 too? ;)


They raised holy hell about it. Austria 2002 is the very reason, why team orders are as popular in Germany like a Serbian bean soup in a Croatian restaurant.

airshifter
7th April 2013, 14:22
Its good to see a couple of you aren't prepared to give Lewis more than two races to settle into the team and perhaps reach his potential.

For me it's obvious that right now Nico has the advantage in how the car/team works, and I have to say even with that advantage staying ahead of Lewis has earned more respect from me than I have ever given Nico in the past. In my eyes this is his first true test against a top notch driver.

With that said, I think Lewis will in time develop the car setup to his liking and overcome Nico in many if not most races. If he doesn't it will just reinforce to me that Nico has been underrated by me in the past.

Bagwan
7th April 2013, 15:02
Brawn said this :
"I didn't like having to give the orders I gave in Malaysia, it's not in my sporting nature and I think the team have demonstrated many times in the past that we are very happy to let our drivers race each other," .

"From a technical perspective, we would have looked extremely foolish if we'd run both cars out of fuel,".

dj_bytedisaster
7th April 2013, 15:16
Brawn said this :
"I didn't like having to give the orders I gave in Malaysia, it's not in my sporting nature and I think the team have demonstrated many times in the past that we are very happy to let our drivers race each other," .

"From a technical perspective, we would have looked extremely foolish if we'd run both cars out of fuel,".

Read: Blah, Blah, yadda, yadda...

Bagwan
7th April 2013, 20:45
Read: Blah, Blah, yadda, yadda...

Though that was a very technical perspective , and thus , a very well-reasoned argument , I must disagree .

Given that there were reportedly also fuel issues involved with the pair of drivers just ahead of them , and also given that there were no laps spent under full yellows , even though this race started wet , it's entirely possible that Ross isn't being the lying ******* to which you "Blah, Blah, yadda, yadda..." .

When Ross told Nico that Lewis could go faster , too , perhaps he didn't want to say "but , don't , you ninny , because you'll run yourself out of fuel !" .
Isn't it better , after all , to not have your opponent know you're hobbled by fuel , and think it's just a pre-race agreement ?

Nah , maybe you're right .

dj_bytedisaster
8th April 2013, 15:33
When Ross told Nico that Lewis could go faster , too , perhaps he didn't want to say "but , don't , you ninny , because you'll run yourself out of fuel !" .
Isn't it better , after all , to not have your opponent know you're hobbled by fuel , and think it's just a pre-race agreement ?

Nah , maybe you're right .

He said to Lewis that he needs "max fuel save" just moments after telling Nico that Lewis could go faster if needed. So what's left there to guess? And if I can hear it on TV, what's the chance that their rival somehow miss this little detail?
To me it still looks like Brawn is a lying pr*ck.

truefan72
8th April 2013, 18:41
Though that was a very technical perspective , and thus , a very well-reasoned argument , I must disagree .

Given that there were reportedly also fuel issues involved with the pair of drivers just ahead of them , and also given that there were no laps spent under full yellows , even though this race started wet , it's entirely possible that Ross isn't being the lying ******* to which you "Blah, Blah, yadda, yadda..." .

When Ross told Nico that Lewis could go faster , too , perhaps he didn't want to say "but , don't , you ninny , because you'll run yourself out of fuel !" .
Isn't it better , after all , to not have your opponent know you're hobbled by fuel , and think it's just a pre-race agreement ?

Nah , maybe you're right .

furthermore, he has the evidence to back this up. I remember quite a few tangles between Rosberg and Schumi in the past 2 seasons.
But, hey, why let the truth and reasoned arguments get in the way of some nationalistic crusade
me thinks that if the roles were reverse that same poster would be applauding the decision and lambasting anybody who has the audacity to complain about it

Bagwan
8th April 2013, 20:48
He said to Lewis that he needs "max fuel save" just moments after telling Nico that Lewis could go faster if needed. So what's left there to guess? And if I can hear it on TV, what's the chance that their rival somehow miss this little detail?
To me it still looks like Brawn is a lying pr*ck.

Well then , perhaps he was talking about the fuel , but to save telling them about another issue that may have been hobbling them .

The real point is that we don't know .

dj_bytedisaster
9th April 2013, 00:45
furthermore, he has the evidence to back this up. I remember quite a few tangles between Rosberg and Schumi in the past 2 seasons.
But, hey, why let the truth and reasoned arguments get in the way of some nationalistic crusade
me thinks that if the roles were reverse that same poster would be applauding the decision and lambasting anybody who has the audacity to complain about it

You of all people accusing me of nationalism, that really takes the cake. LOL

I would be just as apalled if the roles were reversed, because I actually started to like Lewis, once he got his head out of his arse after the shambles of a season in 2011. As I wrote on more than one occasion it's not the fact that Nico was on the receiving end - it's the useless team order itself that po's me. Many of us, myself included, lambasted Ferrari for Austria 2002 and suddenly team orders become acceptable in just the second race. That's just wrong.

Tazio
9th April 2013, 07:47
Sadly, I think they will treat Rosberg as the number 2. There is no other explanation. I do wonder, why did it matter who finished third in this race?

http://i.imgur.com/Tu1E6jE.jpg

:s tareup:

henners88
9th April 2013, 09:14
You of all people accusing me of nationalism, that really takes the cake. LOL
I think that is partly because you have on occasion accused others of nationalism here on various topics yet are the first to bring it up. Now we have a situation on track where a German owned team favours a British driver over a German one and you are 'appalled' by it. You even brought up the fact the German press and people you know are annoyed that a German wasn't favoured instead. Don't be at all surprised if your past accusations get returned every once in a while.

As far as this particular topic goes, its old news now and has been done to death. I think we all know where one another stands by now.

9th April 2013, 11:53
I do think that Lewis is just a bit more highly effective --can power a team to achieve just a bit more than NR. It will be interesting to see how this functions out . . . . . .

airshifter
9th April 2013, 12:52
I do think that Lewis is just a bit more highly effective --can power a team to achieve just a bit more than NR. It will be interesting to see how this functions out . . . . . .

It's possible his experience could have this effect on the team. But personally I think the main fault of Lewis in the past has been his ability to keep a clear head at times, which might also be destructive to a team. If he can keep his head behind it I think he has the talent to challenge for championships on a regular basis.

I'm interested to see how this team rivalry progresses. We already know for sure Lewis is very talented, and I'm hoping my past opinion that I wasn't sure about Nico is proven wrong.

jens
9th April 2013, 22:22
Rosberg has shown that he can be very fast, but there is one thing, which has made me scratch my head about him – it is that he can struggle to deliver in Q3. It is not about the first qualifying sessions this year, this is something I have noticed in the long-run. Just as an example I remember he put in a stunning lap in Brazil 2011 in Q2 with second fastest time, but couldn't repeat it in Q3 and was somewhere like 6th or 7th on the grid.

It looks like one-hour qualifying session is a more complicated chess-game than it superficially looks like. It is not banging in a flier, but more about building yourself up during the whole session, learning about conditions and car with every run, and then delivering your best on the very last attempt. A skill, which I have noticed for instance Senna, Häkkinen and Vettel have/had mastered well. During the qualifying session you can never forget about the on-going learning process and big picture - you can't put everything on the table too early without being able to repeat it.

Perhaps Rosberg can improve in this as well, because evidently he has the speed. Maybe competing against Hamilton – a real qualifying ace – can give him the proper inspiration and insight to really raise his game on this level. But obviously there is a lot of speed in Nico somewhere, which he has been struggling to unleash properly.

Overall an interesting battle. Rosberg is younger than Button and can prove to be even a stronger rival to Hamilton in the long-run. And considering, how close Button was (even scored more points, though with the help of luck), it would be very impressive.

The Black Knight
10th April 2013, 11:16
Rosberg has shown that he can be very fast, but there is one thing, which has made me scratch my head about him – it is that he can struggle to deliver in Q3. It is not about the first qualifying sessions this year, this is something I have noticed in the long-run. Just as an example I remember he put in a stunning lap in Brazil 2011 in Q2 with second fastest time, but couldn't repeat it in Q3 and was somewhere like 6th or 7th on the grid.

It looks like one-hour qualifying session is a more complicated chess-game than it superficially looks like. It is not banging in a flier, but more about building yourself up during the whole session, learning about conditions and car with every run, and then delivering your best on the very last attempt. A skill, which I have noticed for instance Senna, Häkkinen and Vettel have/had mastered well. During the qualifying session you can never forget about the on-going learning process and big picture - you can't put everything on the table too early without being able to repeat it.

Perhaps Rosberg can improve in this as well, because evidently he has the speed. Maybe competing against Hamilton – a real qualifying ace – can give him the proper inspiration and insight to really raise his game on this level. But obviously there is a lot of speed in Nico somewhere, which he has been struggling to unleash properly.

Overall an interesting battle. Rosberg is younger than Button and can prove to be even a stronger rival to Hamilton in the long-run. And considering, how close Button was (even scored more points, though with the help of luck), it would be very impressive.

This more points statistic with Button Vs Hamilton is a load of nonsense because over three years it means absolutely nothing. It doesn't take into account the multitude of failures Hamilton suffered at the hands of his McLaren last year. It's one of the most desperate points I see Button fan's making when struggling to argue they would rather have Button drive for them than Hamilton. Clearly the quicker and better driver of the two is Hamilton. The more points over three years stat means nothing. Hamilton was clearly ahead of Button last year and in 2010. Fact is Hamilton beat him in 2 years out of 3.

jens
10th April 2013, 11:30
I am not arguing against Hamilton being better than Button as I am aware lots of circumstances contribute to the final points tally. My point is that if you manage to outscore a driver over a three-year-period (which is quite long in F1 terms, instead of a single season anomaly), then you have to perform at least quite close. It is not comparable to Massa, who could get only about 50% of Alonso's points over the same period.

zako85
10th April 2013, 11:59
It is not comparable to Massa, who could get only about 50% of Alonso's points over the same period.

Who knows. The rift between Alonso and Massa over the past three years is significant. The rift between them from mid-2012 until now doesn't seem so big. I think we need to watch the rest of 2013 season to decide if Massa's recent resurgence was a random fluke or a long lasting phenomenon.

gtbred
10th April 2013, 13:45
Top off both cars and race. That simple. Jezz!

steveaki13
10th April 2013, 21:44
I think that is partly because you have on occasion accused others of nationalism here on various topics yet are the first to bring it up. Now we have a situation on track where a German owned team favours a British driver over a German one and you are 'appalled' by it. You even brought up the fact the German press and people you know are annoyed that a German wasn't favoured instead. Don't be at all surprised if your past accusations get returned every once in a while.

As far as this particular topic goes, its old news now and has been done to death. I think we all know where one another stands by now.

Spot on Henners. Time to move on to the Chinese GP this weekend.


Right then. Who thinks Merc will ask Lewis to let Nico by this weekend. :D

airshifter
10th April 2013, 23:09
This more points statistic with Button Vs Hamilton is a load of nonsense because over three years it means absolutely nothing. It doesn't take into account the multitude of failures Hamilton suffered at the hands of his McLaren last year. It's one of the most desperate points I see Button fan's making when struggling to argue they would rather have Button drive for them than Hamilton. Clearly the quicker and better driver of the two is Hamilton. The more points over three years stat means nothing. Hamilton was clearly ahead of Button last year and in 2010. Fact is Hamilton beat him in 2 years out of 3.

If you could see past your bias towards Lewis, you would have noticed that Jens did in fact state that luck had a part in Jenson besting Lewis in points. I think Lewis is a better driver, but it doesn't force me to assume a hidden meaning when someone posts... I assume only that they posted what they intended.

The point Jens was making was quite clear to me. Even in your view Lewis was better 2 years out of 3. That means that in that third year Jenson fairly beat a very good and usually well respected driver.

airshifter
10th April 2013, 23:10
Spot on Henners. Time to move on to the Chinese GP this weekend.


Right then. Who thinks Merc will ask Lewis to let Nico by this weekend. :D

I think there is a larger chance that Ross will forget year it is, and tell Felipe to yield to Micheal. :laugh:

Bagwan
11th April 2013, 02:19
Well , petulant Seb has admitted what he did was wrong .
"I appologised to the team straight afterwards for putting myself above the team, which I didn't mean to do. There's not really much more to say."

But then , he became petulant Seb again , saying :
"I don't appologise for winning. I think that's why people employed me in the first place and why I'm here. I love racing and that's what I do."

No lesson learned there then .
Trouble ahead for RedBull .

But then , every script needs a bad guy .

henners88
11th April 2013, 08:24
Well Bagwan Lewis is still on extended break from being the bad guy so Seb will have to do for now :D

The Black Knight
11th April 2013, 10:47
Hamilton cancelled his media engagements in China this Thursday due to illness. Hope he's okay for tomorrow and the race.

The Black Knight
11th April 2013, 10:51
If you could see past your bias towards Lewis, you would have noticed that Jens did in fact state that luck had a part in Jenson besting Lewis in points. I think Lewis is a better driver, but it doesn't force me to assume a hidden meaning when someone posts... I assume only that they posted what they intended.

The point Jens was making was quite clear to me. Even in your view Lewis was better 2 years out of 3. That means that in that third year Jenson fairly beat a very good and usually well respected driver.

I'm well aware of the point Jens was making and I wasn't attacking him. If you read my post properly you'll see I said "It's one of the most desperate points I see Button fan's making". It was a point I was making about that argument in general and I was not saying I disagreed with anything in Jens post :)

henners88
11th April 2013, 11:00
The point Jens was making was quite clear to me. Even in your view Lewis was better 2 years out of 3. That means that in that third year Jenson fairly beat a very good and usually well respected driver.
That's very true, but I would have given that year more credit had Jenson beaten an on-form Lewis Hamilton and taken a really good fight to him. Jenson was consistent and found a groove that year, whereas Lewis was uncharacteristically inconsistent IMO. I think that was the turning point for Lewis and the start of him looking elsewhere for employment. Hats off to Jenson, but I don't feel this points tally over three years only supports an agenda if you believe a driver only makes their own luck. I am a firm believer in luck often being out of ones control.

airshifter
11th April 2013, 13:12
In that case my mistake TBK, I read it as though you might be considering Jens one of the Jenson supporters looking for those excuses in comparisons. But I must admit being consistent is a good trait for a racer, and thus far has been one of Hamiltons weaker points. His racecraft and abilities are obviously strong, but between the "red mist" attitude and sometimes simply over driving for no apparent reason he often reduces his results. Hopefully it has been a lesson for him and the consistency and driving with a cooler head will prevail in the future.

henners88
11th April 2013, 13:25
In that case my mistake TBK, I read it as though you might be considering Jens one of the Jenson supporters looking for those excuses in comparisons. But I must admit being consistent is a good trait for a racer, and thus far has been one of Hamiltons weaker points. His racecraft and abilities are obviously strong, but between the "red mist" attitude and sometimes simply over driving for no apparent reason he often reduces his results. Hopefully it has been a lesson for him and the consistency and driving with a cooler head will prevail in the future.
I think he has proven he has changed over the past 22 races. He's been consistent for over a season now.

airshifter
11th April 2013, 22:09
That I can agree with... hopefully he is done making mistake of his own decisions.

The Black Knight
12th April 2013, 16:39
Interesting that Rosberg was considerably quicker than Hamilton again today and by quite some margin in both session. I think Hamilton will have trouble living with Rosberg around this track. It appears that Rosberg owns it.

*EDIT*

Just received an update that Lewis's health isn't 100% back to normal. Hopefully he'll be fully recovered by qualifying tomorrow.

CaptainRaiden
12th April 2013, 17:30
In that case my mistake TBK, I read it as though you might be considering Jens one of the Jenson supporters looking for those excuses in comparisons. But I must admit being consistent is a good trait for a racer, and thus far has been one of Hamiltons weaker points. His racecraft and abilities are obviously strong, but between the "red mist" attitude and sometimes simply over driving for no apparent reason he often reduces his results. Hopefully it has been a lesson for him and the consistency and driving with a cooler head will prevail in the future.

Did you not see the 2012 season? :confused:

ShiftingGears
12th April 2013, 18:24
I'm rooting for Rosberg this race - would like to see Brawn regret holding him back in Malaysia.

13th April 2013, 06:15
I do think that Lewis is just a bit more highly effective --can power a team to achieve just a bit more than NR. It will be interesting to see how this functions out . . . . . .

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The Black Knight
13th April 2013, 09:08
The prospect of this battle deserved a thread of its own I feel.

We have two top quality drivers who are going to be able to push each other to the limit. It's a great sign for Mercedes future.

So here's a summary of what has happened thus far.

Australia - Hamilton was outpaced by Rosberg in all practice and qualifying sessions until finally in Q1 Hamilton put in a storming lap and pipped Rosberg to out-qualify him. This was probably due to the changeable conditions we were witnessing in Oz, otherwise I genuinely feel Rosberg would have out-qualified him. Hard to compare the race as Rosberg retired.

Malaysia - Again Hamilton was outpaced by Rosberg in every single Free practice and qualifying sessions. Similar to Oz, Hamilton put in a storming lap in the last session of qualifying. The questions of whether or not Rosberg would have beaten him is hard to answer since he got held up by Kimi on a flying lap but I've a feeling Hamilton had the better of him here. In the race, although Hamilton was ahead, for most of it Rosberg was about 0.3 tenths of a second quicker than Hamilton per lap and Rosberg was able to make his tires last longer. Rosberg would have finished up on the podium were it not for team orders and ahead of Hamilton.

Now, as the year goes on, it's possible that Hamilton will embed more into the team and gain and edge over Rosberg. On the other hand, Rosberg has shown what he can do and surely, thus far, appears more than a match for Hamilton.

I think Seb will win the WDC again this year though Alonso might have something to say about it, so for me, the Mercedes teammate battle is the most exciting thing on the grid this season.

I can't wait to see how it pans out over the coming year. I also believe that Nico will out-qualify Hamilton in China. That's my tip! :)

Thoughts?

I eat my words. Superstar! Incredible lap. That's 3-0 in qualifying to Hammy!

A FONDO
13th April 2013, 09:19
At least you have dignity to admit you were wrong.

jens
13th April 2013, 15:28
Rosberg couldn't deliver in Q3 again. Even though his race pace has been fine so far this year, so we will see. In 2011-12 it was the opposite - fast in quali, but dropping off in the race.

However, people have the ability to learn and this is now a big lesson for Rosberg. For a long time he hasn't been paired with someone that fast on Saturdays - the days of Webber as a team-mate are almost forgotten. The speed of Hamilton can be shocking for him. This is the time to dig deep and bounce back. This is the big lesson and task to learn to deliver in crucial moments.

I remember back in 2003 Trulli was probably shocked to see Alonso being that fast straightaway. Jarno was struggling initially, but got his act together and gave the Spaniard a run for his money.

Zico
13th April 2013, 16:00
^ It's a strange situation that Lewis can be so dominant in qualy yet the tyres seem to remove any outright pace advantage he has over Nico on race day and with the joke soft tyres even making sitting out Q3 a viable strategy option... what a messed up state F1 is in right now!
Pirelli really need to get their act together, otherwise employing the very quickest drivers and even having a qualy session is almost pointless. Why can't they just produce a tyre with good longevity that doesn't disadvantage the quickest drivers by forcing everyone to drive at nine tenths?... is it to do with safety? It's peeing me right off!

P3ws
13th April 2013, 17:50
Tires, tires and tires.....
I kind of like the current situation in F1. The tires just makes the whole enchilada even more unpredictable.
Very hard to guess the outcome of weekend.
Ferrari seem suitable for this track, yet Merc are fastest, and the lotuses are up there with Seb having an all together diff strategy.
What about the weather?
I freakin love it.

truefan72
13th April 2013, 21:04
Tires, tires and tires.....
I kind of like the current situation in F1. The tires just makes the whole enchilada even more unpredictable.
Very hard to guess the outcome of weekend.
Ferrari seem suitable for this track, yet Merc are fastest, and the lotuses are up there with Seb having an all together diff strategy.
What about the weather?
I freakin love it.

not me
If I wanted to watch "strategery" I would turn on game of thrones
I want to watch F1 cars compete with at least 80% of their capability.
As it stands now, Qualy is a joke, tires are a lottery and cars are driving out there compromised for at least 3/4 of the race
If they are going to have joke tires then they have to give the teams something back, like the opportunity to select their own fuel strategy

This is like watching a 1500m race in the olympics with runners wearing shoes that fall apart if they go too fast so we watch them walk around a bit, others jog for a lap or two, while yet others employing different strategies. Then crowning the guy who finishes first as the best runner.

I've not been too critical of the tires up to this point, but Pirelli were bound to make the wrong selection at some point ( I wonder what their criteria are?) and it has culminated with disastrous effect here in China. Unless there is something wrong with your car, you should be required to set a representative time. And tires that fall off after 5 laps in a 56 lap race are ridiculous- made even worse because they are worn and already have 3 laps on them now compounded with heavy fuel load. :down:

dj_bytedisaster
13th April 2013, 21:37
^^^
What he said

Those softs make a mockery of F1 at the moment.

The Black Knight
14th April 2013, 14:14
not me
If I wanted to watch "strategery" I would turn on game of thrones
I want to watch F1 cars compete with at least 80% of their capability.
As it stands now, Qualy is a joke, tires are a lottery and cars are driving out there compromised for at least 3/4 of the race
If they are going to have joke tires then they have to give the teams something back, like the opportunity to select their own fuel strategy


This is like watching a 1500m race in the olympics with runners wearing shoes that fall apart if they go too fast so we watch them walk around a bit, others jog for a lap or two, while yet others employing different strategies. Then crowning the guy who finishes first as the best runner.


I've not been too critical of the tires up to this point, but Pirelli were bound to make the wrong selection at some point ( I wonder what their criteria are?) and it has culminated with disastrous effect here in China. Unless there is something wrong with your car, you should be required to set a representative time. And tires that fall off after 5 laps in a 56 lap race are ridiculous- made even worse because they are worn and already have 3 laps on them now compounded with heavy fuel load.




I agree completely.


I've always been pretty critical of Pirelli. They hinder the out and out pace of the fastest drivers. Lewis is the prime example, unbelievably quick but completely stunted by these ridiculous Pirelli tires so much that any outright pace advantage is negated by having to nurse home the tires. Drivers are limited to the speed the tire can cope with opposed to their own outright pace. I watch F1 for the racing. This weekend in China was absolutely stupid having tires that fall apart after 5 or 6 laps. Mark Webber is completely right, it's all too WWF now. Too much about the show and not enough about the quality of the racing. There is a balance to be struck and it's not being struck right now.


I would also like to see refuelling back as I believe that provided true proper strategy. This limping around on rubber that doesn't last needs to stop.


Another thing that has to change is DRS. Stupid thing that should be abolished. It doesn't add to racing and drivers are sitting ducks with it.

dj_bytedisaster
14th April 2013, 14:25
Not that the dwarf gives a **** about what we're thinking, but we should petition to kick Pirelli the **** out of F1, they should never be allowed to get anywhere near ever again.

Knock-on
14th April 2013, 15:26
Well, the pattern seems to be that Rosberg is quick when it doesnt matter (practice) but when he needs to, Hamilton does the business.

faster69
14th April 2013, 15:39
Not that the dwarf gives a **** about what we're thinking, but we should petition to kick Pirelli the **** out of F1, they should never be allowed to get anywhere near ever again.

pirelli are instructed by the FIA to provide these tyres.

steveaki13
14th April 2013, 16:24
I wouldnt mind Pirelli in F1. If they had free reign to construct a decent and fast range of racing tyres and maybe were in a tyre war. As it is I dont agree with whoever is instructing how the tyres are to be constructed.

markabilly
14th April 2013, 16:35
pirelli are instructed by the FIA to provide these tyres.

Why does Pirrelli continue?? This must be damaging their reputation??

faster69
14th April 2013, 16:49
Why does Pirrelli continue?? This must be damaging their reputation??

how? you'd have to be pretty stupid if you thought pirelli road tyres would disintegrate after 20 miles because the soft f1 tyres do so.

Ranger
14th April 2013, 17:07
Australia - Car fails in race.
Malaysia - Divine intervention from Ross Brawn prevents him from passing Hamilton for 3rd.
China - Car fails in race again.

There won't be a battle if it continues like this.

dj_bytedisaster
14th April 2013, 17:15
how? you'd have to be pretty stupid if you thought pirelli road tyres would disintegrate after 20 miles because the soft f1 tyres do so.

Does it matter? I'll be hanging dead over someone's fence before I ever nail Pirelli's to my car, just because the idiots ruined my favourite sport. I don't give a **** about thir road tires. They ****ed up my favourite sport,so no penny from me for them.

Knock-on
14th April 2013, 17:45
Im sure theyre holding a shareholders meeting as we speak because theyve lost your custom :D

seriosly, this is down to the FIA. You might just as well blame a fuel company if you put Petrol in your Diesel car by mistake.

dj_bytedisaster
14th April 2013, 17:49
Im sure theyre holding a shareholders meeting as we speak because theyve lost your custom :D

seriosly, this is down to the FIA. You might just as well blame a fuel company if you put Petrol in your Diesel car by mistake.

I know that they don't give a flying **** about me, but all it takes is a few tens of thousands people and Pirelli will have a serious dent in the sales. I'm an atheist, but i'd be willing to pray if that's what it takes to get rid of them.

The Black Knight
14th April 2013, 19:11
Australia - Car fails in race.
Malaysia - Divine intervention from Ross Brawn prevents him from passing Hamilton for 3rd.
China - Car fails in race again.

There won't be a battle if it continues like this.

Yeah he has been pretty unlucky to be fair. He had the chance to show is worth in qualifying yesterday though and he didn't do it. I don't buy that missing on P3 could have hurt him that much. He was miles away from Hamilton. It does seem like Hammy is getting his **** together and he looked much more comfortable in the car this weekend than the previous two.

Mia 01
14th April 2013, 20:19
Is there an inter team battle between the driver in Mercedes?

airshifter
15th April 2013, 04:53
I know that they don't give a flying **** about me, but all it takes is a few tens of thousands people and Pirelli will have a serious dent in the sales. I'm an atheist, but i'd be willing to pray if that's what it takes to get rid of them.

IMO it would make a lot more sense to pray to the FIA to give Pirelli instructions (or permission more likely) to produce a better tire for F1. I'd also seriously doubt that even those angry with the tire options given would hold it against the FIA. Though it has produced some good racing, I'd prefer they have Pirelli provide 4 or 5 tires, all of various compounds, and let the teams figure it out from there. And I'd want all the tires to at a minimum to last for say 15-20 HARD laps driven at the limit. I'd also toss the requirement to use more than one compound in a race.

webberf1
15th April 2013, 09:27
I know that they don't give a flying **** about me, but all it takes is a few tens of thousands people and Pirelli will have a serious dent in the sales. I'm an atheist, but i'd be willing to pray if that's what it takes to get rid of them.
Lol calm down buddy. Pirelli is one of the best things to have ever happened to F1.

Perhaps you'd rather have everyone split back on Bridgestone and Michelin again? With massive performance gaps, and the result of a race completely dependent on the track temperature (i.e. Michelin being unbelievable in the heat, and utter dogsh!t once it cooled down).

webberf1
15th April 2013, 09:28
The only thing Pirelli REALLY needs to do is to produce a monsoon tyre, so we dont have to watch a safety car procession each time it gets a bit wet.

henners88
15th April 2013, 09:46
Does it matter? I'll be hanging dead over someone's fence before I ever nail Pirelli's to my car, just because the idiots ruined my favourite sport. I don't give a **** about thir road tires. They ****ed up my favourite sport,so no penny from me for them.
How utterly ridiculous. You are a marketers dream!
I think it is laughable how your blame is being targeted towards a manufacturer who is delivering a product to a brief asking for faster degradation. If you base your preference of road tyres on what you seeing happening in Formula One, then I think that is very amusing.

webberf1
15th April 2013, 09:51
How utterly ridiculous. You are a marketers dream!
I think it is laughable how your blame is being targeted towards a manufacturer who is delivering a product to a brief asking for faster degradation. If you base your preference of road tyres on what you seeing happening in Formula One, then I think that is very amusing.
If anything, Pirelli should be being praised for their great ability to produce tyres EXACTLY how their customer (in this case the FIA/FOM) wants. If you are going to hate on the tyres in F1 (which, as I've said is stupid), hate the customer not the maker.

CaptainRaiden
15th April 2013, 09:54
I don't give a **** about thir road tires. They ****ed up my favourite sport,so no penny from me for them. Clickety **** clucketash **** mother @%$&% ****

Jeez, calm down asterisk king. Vettel, Rosberg and Mercedes, and Germany as a whole will be fine eventually. :)

CaptainRaiden
15th April 2013, 10:00
On a more serious note, Lewis seems to be going backwards during races at the beginning of a season, as evidenced by last year and this year. Hopefully sooner rather than later him and Merc will hit the sweet spot with their setup and start having stronger races. I would bet on Lewis winning Canada for sure. Still, two podiums in a row is a great result.

Anyway, how Lewis and Merc are performing now is WAY above many people's expectations. In hindsight, folks predicting last year that Lewis was gonna struggle in the midfield and Jenson and Mclaren were gonna win the championship, seems so funny now. :p

CaptainRaiden
15th April 2013, 10:04
Well, the pattern seems to be that Rosberg is quick when it doesnt matter (practice) but when he needs to, Hamilton does the business.

I believe Hamilton always has two to three tenths in hand for qualifying, especially Q3, and he doesn't show his hand until the final few minutes usually.

henners88
15th April 2013, 10:05
Indeed. Hamilton is on top form and Mercedes have a little bit of work to do as Brawn admitted. The cars one lap pace is on the button but straight line speed seems to be lacking as seen yesterday. Still, its not the disaster so far that a fair few people hoped it would be. Lewis made up for the fuel woes in Malaysia by outperforming Rosberg for much of the weekend. I'm looking forward to a close battle between these two as I think Nico can take it to Hamilton more often than not.

CaptainRaiden
15th April 2013, 10:07
I think Hamilton's strongest races are yet to come, and I also think Mercedes/Brackley will step up their game. It's easy to get behind a driver and give him your full support when you know that he will extract the maximum out of the car and your efforts won't go wasted.

The Black Knight
15th April 2013, 10:09
Indeed. Hamilton is on top form and Mercedes have a little bit of work to do as Brawn admitted. The cars one lap pace is on the button but straight line speed seems to be lacking as seen yesterday. Still, its not the disaster so far that a fair few people hoped it would be. Lewis made up for the fuel woes in Malaysia by outperforming Rosberg for much of the weekend. I'm looking forward to a close battle between these two as I think Nico can take it to Hamilton more often than not.

I'd agree with that but Hamilton seems to be hitting a sweet spot now with the car based on this weekend and Rosberg was nowhere near him in qualifying, which actually really surprised me as I regards Rosberg as one of the best qualifiers I have ever seen. Much like Rosberg to Schumacher last year, the currently points tally doesn't really reflect the true story and it has been much closer than the points table suggests.

Next weekend in Bahrain will be interesting to see what will happen and whether Hamilton's qualifying dominance will continue to that weekend as China was the first GP where I was actually convinced he was genuinely quicker than Nico and considering how good NIco is on that track it really surprised me.

henners88
15th April 2013, 10:23
I'd agree with that but Hamilton seems to be hitting a sweet spot now with the car based on this weekend and Rosberg was nowhere near him in qualifying, which actually really surprised me as I regards Rosberg as one of the best qualifiers I have ever seen. Much like Rosberg to Schumacher last year, the currently points tally doesn't really reflect the true story and it has been much closer than the points table suggests.
Of course. Nico has retired from two out of the three races so he has lost points obviously. Had he finished those races it would show a truer picture apart from a third place Nico really should have had in Malyasia IMO. Hamilton has put his car where it needs to be in qualifying so far which has made the difference in a car that is not quite at the front when long stints are factored in.


Next weekend in Bahrain will be interesting to see what will happen and whether Hamilton's qualifying dominance will continue to that weekend as China was the first GP where I was actually convinced he was genuinely quicker than Nico and considering how good NIco is on that track it really surprised me.
I see it differently. I thought Malaysia was the only race of the three where Nico showed he deserved to finish ahead of Lewis. In Oz Nico retired and after being outqualified by his new team mate. Nico shows sporadic fast pace but as has been said he needs to channel this in Q3 too. Being faster than your team mate at certain points during the race was what was often said about Button, but it needs to work consistently.

Bahrain will be a test because its an aero track and allows a driver to show outright pace, especially in qualifying. I expect Lewis and Nico to be close here and lets hope for another Mercedes pole at he very least. I think the track will suit Red Bull and Ferrari as shown in previous years however so I think its a bit early for a Mercedes win.

truefan72
15th April 2013, 15:13
If anything, Pirelli should be being praised for their great ability to produce tyres EXACTLY how their customer (in this case the FIA/FOM) wants. If you are going to hate on the tyres in F1 (which, as I've said is stupid), hate the customer not the maker.

agreed. The blame falls 90% on F1/FIA and 10% on pirelli, because at the end of the day they do choose which compounds to bring.
But they got it right at the end iof their first year when tires were lasting pretty long.

OK

Back to Hamilton/Rosberg
As it stands 3-0 hamilton
Although I am rooting for Hamilton, I don;t want to see rosberg retire from races or loiter down the grid. If Hamilton is to make a title challenge he will need Rosberg to take points away from his competitors. and perhaps even but up there fighting for podiums and more himself. no matter what folks think. The best thing for Vettel over the past 3 years has been webber. Without him, he would have probably only won 1 championship. Not so much because of team orders, but more so by his own wins and ensuring that he inflicted damage to the other title challengers with race wins and high finishes himself.

truefan72
15th April 2013, 15:17
Of course. Nico has retired from two out of the three races so he has lost points obviously. Had he finished those races it would show a truer picture apart from a third place Nico really should have had in Malyasia IMO. Hamilton has put his car where it needs to be in qualifying so far which has made the difference in a car that is not quite at the front when long stints are factored in.

I see it differently. I thought Malaysia was the only race of the three where Nico showed he deserved to finish ahead of Lewis. In Oz Nico retired and after being outqualified by his new team mate. Nico shows sporadic fast pace but as has been said he needs to channel this in Q3 too. Being faster than your team mate at certain points during the race was what was often said about Button, but it needs to work consistently.

Bahrain will be a test because its an aero track and allows a driver to show outright pace, especially in qualifying. I expect Lewis and Nico to be close here and lets hope for another Mercedes pole at he very least. I think the track will suit Red Bull and Ferrari as shown in previous years however so I think its a bit early for a Mercedes win.

thankfully we only have 4 days before we find out :D

Zico
15th April 2013, 17:28
Anyway, how Lewis and Merc are performing now is WAY above many people's expectations. In hindsight, folks predicting last year that Lewis was gonna struggle in the midfield and Jenson and Mclaren were gonna win the championship, seems so funny now. :p

I'm guilty on that one... but happy to be. ;)




On a more serious note, Lewis seems to be going backwards during races at the beginning of a season, as evidenced by last year and this year. Hopefully sooner rather than later him and Merc will hit the sweet spot with their setup and start having stronger races. I would bet on Lewis winning Canada for sure. Still, two podiums in a row is a great result.

Are Mercs/Lewis's tyre deg issues more to do with the car setup or Lewis's driving style. If we look at Lewis's qualy performance it seems that he has a large pace advantage over Rosberg over a single lap in max attack mode yet there possibly are early signs that Nico's set-up and/or measured race pace and/or superior ability to care for the tyres to be more effective on race day. Is this most likely to be car setup differences between both of them or Lewis's natural attacking driving style being less suited to the latest incarnation of uber-fragile Pirellis?

wedge
15th April 2013, 20:41
On a more serious note, Lewis seems to be going backwards during races at the beginning of a season, as evidenced by last year and this year. Hopefully sooner rather than later him and Merc will hit the sweet spot with their setup and start having stronger races. I would bet on Lewis winning Canada for sure. Still, two podiums in a row is a great result.

Anyway, how Lewis and Merc are performing now is WAY above many people's expectations. In hindsight, folks predicting last year that Lewis was gonna struggle in the midfield and Jenson and Mclaren were gonna win the championship, seems so funny now. :p

Lewis outqualified the car and a testament to how great he is over a single lap. Over a race the car is there or there abouts so going backwards is somewhat inevitable considering tyre issues. Senna had similar feats and problem in Lotus.

Last year bad start in Australia, beaten by JB in China, then tyre lottery and shoddy pit stops and still quicker than JB - that and reliability cost Lewis WDC rather being beaten by team mate every now and then.

Knock-on
16th April 2013, 17:35
Anyway, how Lewis and Merc are performing now is WAY above many people's expectations. In hindsight, folks predicting last year that Lewis was gonna struggle in the midfield and Jenson and Mclaren were gonna win the championship, seems so funny now. :p

Not guilty your Honour. I predicted Lewis would be right up there and Mercedes will be challenging for podiums and a couple of wins back in November. Right on course at the moment :D

Garry Walker
16th April 2013, 19:01
Not that the dwarf gives a **** about what we're thinking, but we should petition to kick Pirelli the **** out of F1, they should never be allowed to get anywhere near ever again.


Does it matter? I'll be hanging dead over someone's fence before I ever nail Pirelli's to my car, just because the idiots ruined my favourite sport. I don't give a **** about thir road tires. They ****ed up my favourite sport,so no penny from me for them.


I know that they don't give a flying **** about me, but all it takes is a few tens of thousands people and Pirelli will have a serious dent in the sales. I'm an atheist, but i'd be willing to pray if that's what it takes to get rid of them.

With such well thought out posts like that, I am sure there are thousands, if not millions, willing to follow you.


Im sure theyre holding a shareholders meeting as we speak because theyve lost your custom :D

:laugh:

The Black Knight
19th April 2013, 14:46
Rosberg 0.3 tenths ahead of Hammy in almost every lap thus far. I see a pattern forming here for sure. If Hamilton pulls it out in qualifying again I think it's a sign it could well be like this for the coming year, though Rosberg is bound to out qualify him eventually. Interesting weekend ahead! It will tell a lot more about the pairing again I think.

truefan72
19th April 2013, 15:51
the pattern continues

on a slight off topic note but related

so what's going on with Mercedes
Why are they not at the very sharp end of the grid with the likes of RBR Ferrari and now behind Lotus?
they have all the resources in the world and a strong racing heritage as well as a decent racing pedigree in many other series

Why has lotus leapfrogged them, and why can't they get their development better?
This is the 2nd year in a row that their rear end issues are coming up again.
I though it would have been sorted out this winter.
Is the issue with the design team?
How can you make the same fundamental mechanical error 2 years in a row?
they probably have twice the budget as Lotus, and probably somewhere near RBR's
I can understand the mclaren problem as they only build a good car every other year, but I know by mid season they will get their act together and probably win a race or two
Mercedes on the other hand seem to have a development ceiling.
Perhaps they should have spent more time recruiting engineers and such rather than spend all their resources on getting a 6 headed hydra team managment system.
All those guys do nothing for the race performance of the car and only had layers of confusion, especially in decision making.

faster69
20th April 2013, 08:16
the pressure must be on ross brawn!!

dj_bytedisaster
20th April 2013, 14:25
Why are they not at the very sharp end of the grid with the likes of RBR Ferrari and now behind Lotus?
they have all the resources in the world and a strong racing heritage as well as a decent racing pedigree in many other series


Very simple. They do not have a strong car to base upon. The 2013 RB is still basically an evolution of the 2010 car, as is the Lotus. What happens when someone tries to build a strong contender from scratch is comprehensively shown by McLaren this year.
And you mustn't forget that Merc until last year had Loic Bigois as their chief designer, who is the world's most useless aerodynamicist.

They have beaten Lotus comprehensively so far this weekend though.

Zico
20th April 2013, 14:47
Well, Nico has just pulled an unlikely pole out of the bag and vs Lewis has pulled one back in the Qualy stakes. With Lewis's 5 place grid penalty Merc really needed Nico to rise to the occasion and boy hasn't he done it in style!

Well done Nico, fantastic pole lap, I'm very happy for you!

Knock-on
20th April 2013, 15:47
Very good performance from Nico today. Will he make his advantage count on race day though?

dj_bytedisaster
20th April 2013, 15:49
Very good performance from Nico today. Will he make his advantage count on race day though?

According to Horner, Bahrain is a track where overtaking doesn't cost much time in terms of lap time, so qualifying position may not be that important. In the end it will be a tire-eco-run again, anyway.

steveaki13
20th April 2013, 21:46
Well done Nico two super laps.

He surely will fade in the Race. I just dont see Mercedes as being fast or soft (on Tyres) enough to hold the win.

The Black Knight
24th April 2013, 09:52
So overall we still haven't got a proper picture of the quicker driver. Lewis certainly looked quicker in P3 and to have hte measure of Rosberg but then his car wasn't right for qualifying and he was simply a sitting duck for half the race.

Rosberg then was awesome in qualifying, stunning lap but couldn't make his tires work the way Lewis could. Thus far Lewis is winning the battle overall.

steveaki13
25th April 2013, 08:25
I think thats a fair reflection above.

I have been suprised quite how mighty Nicos Quali pace has been, but Lewis is still coming out on top in most races.

This will be a mighty interesting battle this season.

dj_bytedisaster
25th April 2013, 19:00
I think thats a fair reflection above.

I have been suprised quite how mighty Nicos Quali pace has been, but Lewis is still coming out on top in most races.

This will be a mighty interesting battle this season.

Nico seems to have gambled with the setup and lost big time. His setup made him quick in quali, but according to his post-race interview it made his car very tail-happy on a full tank, which more or less immediately wrecked the rear tires, which are a perennial Mercedes problem to begin with.
Another reason for me to get rid of the Pirellis. Back in the day a dodgy setup would have cost him 3, maybe 4 positions. These days even a slightly sub-optimal setup will make your tires expire quicker than a copyrighted youtube video and you drop back like a rock. Someone remember Kimi losing 10 positions in a single lap last year?

Knock-on
26th April 2013, 07:49
Come on, be homest. Stop beating about the bush. You secretly love Pirelli and want Pauls love child ;)

Mia 01
9th May 2013, 17:58
Lewis is the favoured son. No battle in this team. I´m sorry for Nico

henners88
9th May 2013, 18:22
I think you'll find there is no proof to suggest either is favoured. Nico has been given the same equipment as Hamilton and both have had pole positions but the cars have not been strong enough in race trim. Time will tell but it's a little early to declare Hamilton as the chosen one, lets not be over dramatic lol

dj_bytedisaster
18th May 2013, 10:39
After all the heated debates, I thought injecting a little fun wouldn't be too bad :D

Florian König and Kai "no sense of fashion" Ebel of German broadcaster RTL reminisce about the good old days at Monaco with König claiming that there sadly aren't any dare-devil drivers in F1 anymore.
Suddenly a wild Nico Rosberg appears :rotflmao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kq1YAoEOhg&feature=player_embedded

The Black Knight
25th May 2013, 16:40
Third pole in a row for Nico. Third time Hamilton has been out qualified by his teammate. I can't ever remember that happening before. It's interesting that Hamilton stood up when it mattered and set in a blistering lap time but has been lacking pace to Nico all weekend. Nico is beginning to show his class something I have been waiting for, for a long time. 3 - 3 in qualifying trim. Hamilton hasn't seemed comfortable in the car over the last couple of weekends. I feel he hasn't bedded into the team as much as he would like yet but I'd say he's doing a reasonable job overcoming his issues and is never too far off Nico's pace when it matters. Hopefully they'll sort it over the coming races and we'll see what these two great drivers can do together.

One thing it does show though is that, last year, old man Schumacher was still no slouch!

donKey jote
25th May 2013, 19:02
will it be payback time for Nico in Monaco? will Ham put on a whinger if told to hold position? :devil: :p :andrea:

markabilly
26th May 2013, 07:21
naw,


Ham will be smart and bid his time, try to keep vettel behind him, , while Nico smokes his tires, leaving Hamilton taking the race.







Opps did I mention the tradition of brilliant pit strategy of Merc over the last few years--even the last race? I change my answer:


Hamilton will be whinging again, I can not go any slower, while the pit assures him that their strategy is working and he will move up from 12th place as soon as the Caterham of Van the Garden pits for its first stop halway through the race.... :(

Meanwhile Nico is trying to look cool as he can in tenth place, while keeping the Caterham behind him....

dj_bytedisaster
26th May 2013, 07:37
naw,


Ham will be smart and bid his time, try to keep vettel behind him, , while Nico smokes his tires, leaving Hamilton taking the race.







Opps did I mention the tradition of brilliant pit strategy of Merc over the last few years--even the last race? I change my answer:


Hamilton will be whinging again, I can not go any slower, while the pit assures him that their strategy is working and he will move up from 12th place as soon as the Caterham of Van the Garden pits for its first stop halway through the race.... :(

Meanwhile Nico is trying to look cool as he can in tenth place, while keeping the Caterham behind him....


:rotflmao:
To make up for the pain - have some gorgeous chicks :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqWkyxJCGmY&feature=player_detailpage

Koz
26th May 2013, 13:56
His accent ruined it for me. :(

Koz
26th May 2013, 14:03
Here we go!

jens
26th May 2013, 17:56
Rosberg is yet another driver to show that it is easy to underestimate a driver if he gets stuck in midfield cars for many years even though does a competent job there. It obviously poses a great interest, how does the battle unfold during the rest of the time of their partnership together. Obviously Hamilton hasn't fully settled in the team either yet. So as always, we are going to see fluctuations in one's or other's favour. But what is clear, is that Rosberg can race anyone when he hits a purple patch in form. Which he has done for now.

The current battle reminds me a bit of the early 2007 Massa-Räikkönen dynamics. Kimi was new into the team, so Felipe had the upper hand even though results-wise he had a bad start into the season (6th in Oz, 5th in Mal).

Montreal is one of Hamilton's strongest circuits. He has either won or retired there. And when he retired, he was a victory challenger as well.

dj_bytedisaster
26th May 2013, 18:00
Nobody has ever beaten Lewis so consistently yet. What it shows is, that Rosberg was much underrated so far and that Schumacher, despite his age, wasn't as slow as the car made him look since his comeback.

steveaki13
27th May 2013, 00:42
Well done to Nico and its great to be getting an upper hand now on the car and Lewis, but I find it hard to rate his win or any of the top 4s races as good today.

No One in the top 4 looked like pushing hard to doing much else than driving to Deltas. Because of the state F1 is in these last seasons I find it one of the least impressive Monaco wins.

Sorry but thats how I feel.

He wasnt challenged, had he been I am sure he could still have won and shown his class. This though was just lifeless.

ShiftingGears
27th May 2013, 03:30
Quite pleased that Nico won. Hopefully he can string a few more good weekends together like that, and make the championship fight interesting.

wedge
29th May 2013, 15:38
Hamilton struggling with brakes since he joined Merc. A bit scary given that he's not that far off the pace from Rosberg.

This reminds of 2007 when Kimi and Alonso admitted they were struggling to adapt to the Bridgestone control tyres and as with Hamilton we're talking a hundredths to a few tenths of a second. Alonso and Kimi could be devastating when the car was right.

How Nico Rosberg has put the brakes on Lewis Hamilton at Mercedes in 2013 - so far | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/8739850/How-Nico-Rosberg-has-put-the-brakes-on-Lewis-Hamilton-at-Mercedes-in-2013-so-far)

The Black Knight
29th May 2013, 16:54
Hamilton struggling with brakes since he joined Merc. A bit scary given that he's not that far off the pace from Rosberg.

This reminds of 2007 when Kimi and Alonso admitted they were struggling to adapt to the Bridgestone control tyres and as with Hamilton we're talking a hundredths to a few tenths of a second. Alonso and Kimi could be devastating when the car was right.

How Nico Rosberg has put the brakes on Lewis Hamilton at Mercedes in 2013 - so far | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/8739850/How-Nico-Rosberg-has-put-the-brakes-on-Lewis-Hamilton-at-Mercedes-in-2013-so-far)

Yeah it's been clear he hasn't been too comfortable in that Mercedes. The body language of the Mercedes car doesn't echo the usual Lewis Hamilton to me. He'll bounce back but it might take him some time.

The Black Knight
10th June 2013, 00:00
Well Hamilton clearly was the quicker of the two Mercedes drivers this weekend and it seemed that was the case throughout the whole weekend as well. I was surprised that he out qualified Rosberg as he still isn't 100% comfortable in the car. Still though, fantastic driver over all.

4-3 to Hamilton in qualifying ratio :)

steveaki13
10th June 2013, 00:16
He done great.

people moaning about Mercedes, but car is better than last years Poles, front rows, wins and podiums show that.

stevemuk
10th June 2013, 00:55
Perhaps the extra testing has helped him. ;)

Oops... sorry I forgot they were just testing the tyres.

The Black Knight
29th June 2013, 15:32
Incredible lap by Hammy! 5-3 in qualifying. Still leading the way overall for Mercedes!

steveaki13
29th June 2013, 20:47
There seems a feeling Nico is dominating, but 5-3 to Lewis in Quali and leading the points race.

The one thing he needs is that win, lets hope it somehow comes tomorrow.

henners88
29th June 2013, 20:50
There seems a feeling Nico is dominating, but 5-3 to Lewis in Quali and leading the points race.

The one thing he needs is that win, lets hope it somehow comes tomorrow.
That would be nice as I know it must have hurt watching Nico win at Monaco. I know many hold Monaco in high regard but for me, nothing would feel better than winning yours and the teams home GP. It's a big ask but hopefully Merc have the pace this time, fingers crossed. :)

Knock-on
29th June 2013, 23:43
Monaco was a funny one. Merc made a bit of an error bringing Lewis in when they did. It should have been a 1, 2, but Nico would still have got the win.

Why do you think consensus is that Nico is winning the battle Steve? I hear he is doing a sterling job and really upped his game this year but Lewis is regarded as being the top driver. They are the best performing pairing on the grid but I expect Lewis to widen the gap in the second half of the season. Remember who said Merc will surprise people this year since wayyy back at Brazil ;)

steveaki13
30th June 2013, 00:46
Monaco was a funny one. Merc made a bit of an error bringing Lewis in when they did. It should have been a 1, 2, but Nico would still have got the win.

Why do you think consensus is that Nico is winning the battle Steve? I hear he is doing a sterling job and really upped his game this year but Lewis is regarded as being the top driver. They are the best performing pairing on the grid but I expect Lewis to widen the gap in the second half of the season. Remember who said Merc will surprise people this year since wayyy back at Brazil ;)

Yer I think its cause some seemed to suggest that Lewis would wipe the floor with Nico maybe? Or at least be ahead most of the time, but Nico has done a great job and I am sure next weekend he will be determined to give a good account at home.

dj_bytedisaster
30th June 2013, 00:53
There seems a feeling Nico is dominating, but 5-3 to Lewis in Quali and leading the points race.

The one thing he needs is that win, lets hope it somehow comes tomorrow.

You should keep in mind though that Lewis was arbitrarily kept in front of Nico albeit being much slower in Malaysia and that Nico fell back in Canada due to a braindead team decision to run the softer compound twice, so Lewis isn't dominating Rosberg either. They are very close in performance.

Knock-on
30th June 2013, 01:08
Come on DJ. Team orders are pretty standard after the last stop unless you're Seb ;)

Nico had done well this year and surprised me but Lewis has been at least on his pace from the start in a new car and new team. We can chew the fat in November :D

Mia 01
2nd July 2013, 19:40
One moore win for Nico.

SGWilko
2nd July 2013, 21:51
One moore win for Nico.

Yes, Mercedes seem to be on a better development curve since Lewis came aboard.

Mia 01
2nd July 2013, 23:38
I think Nico is very greatful to Lewis for his hard work, if he gives it a bit moore Nico can perhaps have another win.

steveaki13
3rd July 2013, 21:21
It was a real shame that Lewis had his bad luck at Silverstone, but with a bit of help, Mercedes did what any top team needs to, if one retires from the lead then the next driver needs to take the win.

This is exciting. Nico has 2 brilliant wins, but Lewis has had some bad luck and it really could have been 1-1.

I see Mercedes being strong here and Lewis has won here twice so maybe he can challenge for that first 2013 win.

henners88
3rd July 2013, 22:13
Lewis isn't doing too badly even with the bad luck at Silverstone. Nico has two victories and Lewis was unfortunate not to get his first at the weekend, but is still ahead of his team mate on points. It's clear Lewis is getting more comfortable with the car and put in an inspiration recovery drive at his home GP. Some may like to mock his misfortune, but its clear he is not far off hitting the sweet spot and should be proud of his progress so far IMO.

samreddevilz
3rd July 2013, 22:55
I am seeing Hamilton as a winner of this Battle. In fact, He will push for Championship I hope.

steveaki13
3rd July 2013, 23:37
Lewis isn't doing too badly even with the bad luck at Silverstone. Nico has two victories and Lewis was unfortunate not to get his first at the weekend, but is still ahead of his team mate on points. It's clear Lewis is getting more comfortable with the car and put in an inspiration recovery drive at his home GP. Some may like to mock his misfortune, but its clear he is not far off hitting the sweet spot and should be proud of his progress so far IMO.

That drive from 21st at one point back to 4th was amazing.

One of the drives of the season so far. Shame it wasn't 3rd as I think it would have got the sort of coverage it deserved.

The Black Knight
4th July 2013, 09:29
Lewis isn't doing too badly even with the bad luck at Silverstone. Nico has two victories and Lewis was unfortunate not to get his first at the weekend, but is still ahead of his team mate on points. It's clear Lewis is getting more comfortable with the car and put in an inspiration recovery drive at his home GP. Some may like to mock his misfortune, but its clear he is not far off hitting the sweet spot and should be proud of his progress so far IMO.

I'm really looking forward to the Nurburgring. I think it is a track that will suit the Mercedes. I honestly believe that Lewis can get his first win of the year this weekend. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens now that Mercedes finally appear to be getting on top of their tire issues. Plus the modifications Pirelli are making will help them as well I feel. It's going to be an interesting weekend. If Mercedes can make it through this event unscathed then I think we've seen on two different kinds of tracks they are strong. Looking forward to it as I think Hammy deserves title number 2 given all that happened last year and the magnitude of McLaren mess ups.

The Black Knight
4th July 2013, 09:31
That drive from 21st at one point back to 4th was amazing.

One of the drives of the season so far. Shame it wasn't 3rd as I think it would have got the sort of coverage it deserved.

To be fair he did benefit from one safety car but, unlike Seb in AD last year, he only benefited once lol

henners88
4th July 2013, 10:14
To be fair he did benefit from one safety car but, unlike Seb in AD last year, he only benefited once lol
True but I feel he was due some good luck after the appalling luck that took him out of the lead. Quite a few drivers up and down the field benefited from the SC be it with closing gaps or giving them pit stop windows under a slowing field of cars.

zako85
4th July 2013, 10:33
I am counting on Mercedes to keep the championship alive. It seems like Mercedes cars have good qualifying and race pace. Half of season is still ahead of us. Of course, it's hard to predict if Mercedes will continue at the same pace considering that soon everyone will be using new spec tires.

It's probably too early to draw conclusions on Rosberg vs Hamilton battle. I think Rosberg is much better than how most people regarded him before 2013 started. At the same time, I don't see a big evidence that Rosberg is leading this battle. Hamilton is leading in points and he would had more if it wasn't for the incident at Silverstone last week.

The Black Knight
4th July 2013, 10:38
True but I feel he was due some good luck after the appalling luck that took him out of the lead. Quite a few drivers up and down the field benefited from the SC be it with closing gaps or giving them pit stop windows under a slowing field of cars.

I'm actually stumped by how unlucky in general Hamilton has been over the past year and a half. Is there any other driver on the grid that has had the misfortune he has received?

Maybe now that he's finally broken up with that eejit Nicole his luck will begin to change for the better. She played a big part in his 2011 slump.

The Black Knight
4th July 2013, 11:02
Great news for Mercedes. Ross Brawn is officially now staying put in 2014. I think this is good. They need stability to perform well in the long term and there is no better man to do it than Ross.

SGWilko
4th July 2013, 11:04
Great news for Mercedes. Ross Brawn is officially now staying put in 2014. I think this is good. They need stability to perform well in the long term and there is no better man to do it than Ross.

I think Honda are quite keen to recruit him......

The Black Knight
4th July 2013, 12:15
I think Honda are quite keen to recruit him......

That would mean Ross Brawn at McLaren. Hmmm, not sure I see that happening...

Koz
4th July 2013, 13:04
Maybe now that he's finally broken up with that eejit Nicole his luck will begin to change for the better. She played a big part in his 2011 slump.

Oh dear god, please no, not again.

This would be the 25th break up again?

Weren't they getting engaged a few days ago?
I for one hope she's gone for good. Mr Hamilton needs a decent girl, not some old plastic gold digger.

CaptainRaiden
4th July 2013, 16:07
Interesting how, since Lewis moved there, Mercedes is starting to look more and more like Mclaren from 2012, and Mclaren is starting to look worse than Mercedes was in 2012.

Of course, I'm not delusional enough to think that only one guy moving can result in such a huge performance gain. It has really been all the changes Mercedes made to their design department as well over the last year, but having Lewis onboard has undoubtedly helped.

samreddevilz
4th July 2013, 16:28
in the British Grand Prix, we were enjoying a great Battle between these two team mates. Unfortunately, ****t happens & Hamilton faced a tyre trouble !! Really fed up!

The Black Knight
4th July 2013, 17:15
Oh dear god, please no, not again.

This would be the 25th break up again?

Weren't they getting engaged a few days ago?
I for one hope she's gone for good. Mr Hamilton needs a decent girl, not some old plastic gold digger.

They broke up again a few weeks ago. I haven't kept track of how many times but Hamilton I think needs to concentrate on his racing and leave that head wrecker behind.

tfp
4th July 2013, 17:45
They broke up again a few weeks ago. I haven't kept track of how many times but Hamilton I think needs to concentrate on his racing and leave that head wrecker behind.

you still "would" though, wouldn't you? :p

The Black Knight
5th July 2013, 15:06
you still "would" though, wouldn't you? :p
Oh stop the lights! I'd dispense an unmercifull rogering :p

joeyz_f1
5th July 2013, 15:38
How is this an inter team battle? Aren't Hamilton and Rosberg at the same team? :confused:

The Black Knight
5th July 2013, 15:48
How is this an inter team battle? Aren't Hamilton and Rosberg at the same team? :confused:
I know I should have wrote intra, but couldn't change the title by the time I realised my mistake!

RedBullian1
5th July 2013, 15:50
Rosberg is the one winning poles and races, but I think Hamilton really improved the performance of the cars and the team in testing. He made the switch and everyone was bashing him, but now we all know that it was the right decision

vhatever
6th July 2013, 00:09
Rosberg is the one winning poles and races, but I think Hamilton really improved the performance of the cars and the team in testing. He made the switch and everyone was bashing him, but now we all know that it was the right decision



people "bashed" him because they thought he was making a mistake. What they didn't know was lewy had inside info that the upcoming mclaren lacked performance and mercedes was the place to be after the engine changes. As they say, rats are the first to jump ship.

Brown, Jon Brow
7th July 2013, 10:42
people "bashed" him because they thought he was making a mistake. What they didn't know was lewy had inside info that the upcoming mclaren lacked performance and mercedes was the place to be after the engine changes. As they say, rats are the first to jump ship.

You're maybe correct about the engine changes making Mercedes seem more attractive, but how would he know in September last year that McLaren were building a garbage car for 2013?

Zico
7th July 2013, 12:43
people "bashed" him because they thought he was making a mistake. What they didn't know was lewy had inside info that the upcoming mclaren lacked performance and mercedes was the place to be after the engine changes. As they say, rats are the first to jump ship.


Lewis = Rat because he moved team? :D
You sir are indeed the antithesis of Gary Walker. He hates Vettel, you hate Hamilton.. I have an idea, why don't you both just have a ding dong by pm and spare the rest of us from reading your trolling hate filled posts.

steveaki13
7th July 2013, 12:47
Lewis = Rat because he moved team? :D
You sir are indeed the antithesis of Gary Walker. He hates Vettel, you hate Hamilton.. I have an idea, why don't you both just have a ding dong by pm and spare the rest of us from reading your trolling hate filled posts.

This..........

Tazio
7th July 2013, 13:41
This is a great battle with (maybe) the best the best teammate talent of all the teams. Why not just enjoy it, discuss it objectively, and cut out all the petty BS? :down:

steveaki13
7th July 2013, 13:51
This is a great battle with (maybe) the best the best teammate talent of all the teams. Why not just enjoy it, discuss it objectively, and cut out all the petty BS? :down:

Sadly thats exactly what some here come for.

Best to try and ignore certain posts

kfzmeister
7th July 2013, 16:19
Seems like The Rosberg (Lefty) was so absorbed in yesterday's bad qualy call that he really didn't put much effort into today's race, yet Hamilton absolutely gave it his all. What a pure-bred racer.

As an Alonso fan, i've always hated him, but the man's got a racer's heart.

vhatever
7th July 2013, 16:25
Lewis = Rat because he moved team? :D
You sir are indeed the antithesis of Gary Walker. He hates Vettel, you hate Hamilton.. I have an idea, why don't you both just have a ding dong by pm and spare the rest of us from reading your trolling hate filled posts.

Rat = someone with little to no loyalty, which describes lewis to a "T". he didn't leave to broaden his horizons like he lies about. He left because he thinks merc is going to be in the catbird's seat come the engine changes.

dj_bytedisaster
7th July 2013, 19:13
Seems like The Rosberg (Lefty) was so absorbed in yesterday's bad qualy call that he really didn't put much effort into today's race, yet Hamilton absolutely gave it his all. What a pure-bred racer.

As an Alonso fan, i've always hated him, but the man's got a racer's heart.

Well, Rosberg looked a bit anonymous, but considering that Lewis came from pole and Nico had to start 11th, being only 4 positions behind Lewis isn't that bad. Add to that that he was ordered to let Lewis pass in the race, too. It was just a typical Merc race in hot conditions again. I think Lewis "looks better" because of that brilliant fight with Alonso. Rosberg was hardly shown at all, so we don't really know how good or bad he drove.

airshifter
7th July 2013, 21:28
Seems like The Rosberg (Lefty) was so absorbed in yesterday's bad qualy call that he really didn't put much effort into today's race, yet Hamilton absolutely gave it his all. What a pure-bred racer.

As an Alonso fan, i've always hated him, but the man's got a racer's heart.

And I might add that Lewis really gave Alonso a hard time. Kimi had made fairly quick work of the pass, but it almost seems like Lewis ups his game against Fernando, which makes sense given the respect that Lewis gives Alonso. Not to take from Kimi... he seems great at exploring alternate lines and leaving the leading car guessing as to when he will make the move.

henners88
8th July 2013, 08:59
Well its safe to say Hamilton had the better weekend of the two this time around. A brilliant lap in quali, but I had my doubts about race performance with the weather being so hot. Merc still have issues keeping the tyres cool when running heavy fuel and both Merc drivers were suffering from front tyres overheating. It seems they find the sweet spot in the last 20 laps though when the car becomes lighter. Too late often though. I thought Hamilton put in a blinder though for the second race in a row. Secured decent points considering the issues he had and put up a great fight with Alonso. It was great to see two experienced WDC's go wheel to wheel but also demonstrating the respect they have for each other in terms of being fair. Enjoyable to watch. :)

The Black Knight
8th July 2013, 09:29
Well its safe to say Hamilton had the better weekend of the two this time around. A brilliant lap in quali, but I had my doubts about race performance with the weather being so hot. Merc still have issues keeping the tyres cool when running heavy fuel and both Merc drivers were suffering from front tyres overheating. It seems they find the sweet spot in the last 20 laps though when the car becomes lighter. Too late often though. I thought Hamilton put in a blinder though for the second race in a row. Secured decent points considering the issues he had and put up a great fight with Alonso. It was great to see two experienced WDC's go wheel to wheel but also demonstrating the respect they have for each other in terms of being fair. Enjoyable to watch. :)

This is my view on the race exactly.

Hamilton has easily outshone Rosberg now for two races running. Two pole positions in a row but yet no race win. I'm sure his time for a race win will come, maybe even in Hungary if the temperatures aren't too hot, but for now he is very unlucky to have had at least one win under his belt.

It's clear now that Merc's issues with overheating their tires are directly tied to track temperature. They have been suffering these issues for nearly two years now, they really need to begin to get on top of it with all the resources they have at their disposal.

TheFamousEccles
8th July 2013, 14:29
He left because he thinks merc is going to be in the catbird's seat come the engine changes.

And this is a bad thing for a professional race driver to do because..?

Big Ben
8th July 2013, 14:44
because he doesn't like him... D-oh :p

vhatever
8th July 2013, 15:15
And this is a bad thing for a professional race driver to do because..?

well, it would depend if you think loyalty is important as an F1 fan, or honesty for that matter. As we have seen over lewys career he is both loyalty and honesty challenged.


wouldn't want that cancer growing on my team.

henners88
8th July 2013, 15:36
What about Vettel stating numerous times during his championship campaigns with Red Bull, the desire to one day drive for Ferrari?

It brought a lot of heat towards Horner in 2010 and 2011 and he made the comments twice in a week in one instance. I have nothing against that at all and don't blame a driver discussing his long term plans but it strikes me as falling into the disloyalty category if judged through the bitter and hypocritical ideals of someone else here. Although I find it amusing, its food for thought and entertainment for the rest of you. :)

vhatever
8th July 2013, 15:48
What about Vettel stating numerous times during his championship campaigns with Red Bull, the desire to one day drive for Ferrari?

It brought a lot of heat towards Horner in 2010 and 2011 and he made the comments twice in a week in one instance. I have nothing against that at all and don't blame a driver discussing his long term plans but it strikes me as falling into the disloyalty category if judged through the bitter and hypocritical ideals of someone else here. Although I find it amusing, its food for thought and entertainment for the rest of you. :)


I wasn't aware Vettel jumped ship to go to ferrari because he thought they would build him a better car.

Anyway, you are getting off topic.

henners88
8th July 2013, 15:54
Ha.

Well it seems I came up with something rather inconvenient lol. I wonder why Vettel jumped to Red Bull from Toro Rosso when he could have stayed in the Red Bull family but given himself a bigger challenge with his original team? If I was in the same position I would go to the team that gave me a better car and the better chance to win the championship, just like Seb did. Drivers move all the time and have done throughout history. Real F1 fans know this of course lol.

Tazio
8th July 2013, 16:21
well, it would depend if you think loyalty is important I don't dislike McLaren, but IMO they ask for a little too much loyalty from their drivers, and would never knock anyone for seeking another team. The Boss stayed there longer than most of the talent they've brought in over the years. As for the battle; LH has scored about 15% more points than NR, but Nico's two wins cancel that out. Lewis's style looks mopre spectacular than Nico's, but than what does that really count for? Without the two DNFs for mechanical issues Britney would likely be even with Lewis at this stage. So, I give a slight edge to Nico at this point in the season, but there is still a long way to go. Two drivers I really like and I wish the best to both of them.

vhatever
8th July 2013, 17:03
Ha.

Well it seems I came up with something rather inconvenient lol. I wonder why Vettel jumped to Red Bull from Toro Rosso when he could have stayed in the Red Bull family but given himself a bigger challenge with his original team? If I was in the same position I would go to the team that gave me a better car and the better chance to win the championship, just like Seb did. Drivers move all the time and have done throughout history. Real F1 fans know this of course lol.

Uhh, vettel went from red bull to red bull. Even his tiny stint with BMW his contract was still with red bull. I'm pretty sure any "real F1 fan " would know that... lol?

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:06
Rat = someone with little to no loyalty, which describes lewis to a "T". he didn't leave to broaden his horizons like he lies about. He left because he thinks merc is going to be in the catbird's seat come the engine changes.

What loyalty should Lewis have to McLaren - he gave them a WDC? They kept giving him Lemons since or buggering up in the pits...........

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:10
Uhh, vettel went from red bull to red bull. Even his tiny stint with BMW his contract was still with red bull. I'm pretty sure any "real F1 fan " would know that... lol?

You could say that Lewis went from one Mercedes car to another, leaving the one with the cancer behind.....

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:11
I wasn't aware Vettel jumped ship to go to ferrari because he thought they would build him a better car.

Anyway, you are getting off topic.

Soon as they put Kimi in the Red Bull and give him a run, we will hear more of his Italian ambitions.....

vhatever
8th July 2013, 17:28
Soon as they put Kimi in the Red Bull and give him a run, we will hear more of his Italian ambitions.....


with grosjean embarassing Kimi "the team orderer" iceman, there is a better chance you win a Nobel.

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:30
with grosjean embarassing Kimi "the team orderer" iceman, there is a better chance you win a Nobel.

How many times has Grosjean embarrassed himself and his team by trashing the car (and others too) in the last two seasons compared to 'keep it on the track' Kimi?

vhatever
8th July 2013, 17:32
How many times has Grosjean embarrassed himself and his team by trashing the car (and others too) in the last two seasons compared to 'keep it on the track' Kimi?

So grosjean really really, sucks, according to you, so what is kimi doing begging for team order handouts and being schooled all race day by such a crappy driver?

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:33
So grosjean really really, sucks, acocording to you, so what is kimi doing begging for team order handouts and being schooled all race day by sccuha crappy driver?

Speak English boy, can't make head nor tail of that....????

dj_bytedisaster
8th July 2013, 17:34
Folks, can you do us all a favour and just stop responding to vhatever's posts? He isn't interested in discussing F1. He'll flamebait you until you loose your patience and then you'll end up with an infraction. It's just not worth it.

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:35
Folks, can you do us all a favour and just stop responding to vhatever's posts? He isn't interested in discussing F1. He'll flamebait you until you loose your patience and then you'll end up with an infraction. It's just not worth it.

Not gonna loose my (waiting room full of) patience. Waiting for him to blow a gasket!

vhatever
8th July 2013, 17:37
Speak English boy, can't make head nor tail of that....????

It's pretty clear, and i think you and others have tried to derail this thread quite enough. I won't be party to more. Stay on topic or stay off the forum.

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:38
It's pretty clear, and i think you and others have tried to derail this thread quite enough. I won't be party to more. Stay on topic or stay off the forum.

That's much better, now, what did you say in your last post?

dj_bytedisaster
8th July 2013, 17:41
Not gonna loose my (waiting room full of) patience. Waiting for him to blow a gasket!

That's all jolly well. But I'm growing a wee bit tired to see new posts arrived and half of them are just full of his hateful drivel and the other part from people unsuccessfully trying to talk sense into a brick wall :arrowed:

SGWilko
8th July 2013, 17:50
That's all jolly well. But I'm growing a wee bit tired to see new posts arrived and half of them are just full of his hateful drivel and the other part from people unsuccessfully trying to talk sense into a brick wall :arrowed:

It's great, guy cannot spell for toffee and tries to hold the high ground. Classic numptyism at its best.

Mark
8th July 2013, 17:51
Just had to delete a load of posts, lets stay on track here guys, this isn't a place for personal insults.

steveaki13
8th July 2013, 23:05
Well its safe to say Hamilton had the better weekend of the two this time around :)

Dont look now, but some posters suggested Nico was better as he gained places and ended only 4 or 5 places behind him rather than the 11 odd at the start.

They forgot to consider its easier to go 11th-9th than hold a podium place.

Knock-on
9th July 2013, 10:28
Lewis was mighty in Germany. One of the best qualifying performances in a car that needed taking by the scruff of the neck and although the Merc ate it's tyres during the race, still managed to get it home in good points while duking it out with faster cars like the world depended on it.

Good drive for Nico but people that think he drove better than Lewis this weekend might not be being too objective. If that were the case, they would agree that Webber far outshone Vettel from coming back from a Lap down to finish in the points where Seb only managed to make up one place in the race; what a looooser ;)

Koz
21st July 2013, 11:24
They broke up again a few weeks ago. I haven't kept track of how many times but Hamilton I think needs to concentrate on his racing and leave that head wrecker behind.

And Round #26 begins. https://twitter.com/LewisHamilton

If you've found that special someone, don't EVER let them go no matter what!! Nothing in this world is more important...

Will performance suffer?

Sage-sg
23rd July 2013, 10:28
I think Hamilton have exchanged his talent for glamour, but Hamilton's talent is better Rosberg's talent. I think for mercedes need other very fast and talent drivers.

The Black Knight
29th July 2013, 12:25
Well this was a really interesting race and I honestly feel it marks a turning point for Hamilton at Mercedes. In the last three races he has seemed to be far more comfortable with the car and beginning to get it set up more to his liking and he is leaving Nico trailing.


Nico may have won in Silverstone but the victory should have been Hamilton's. Nico is going to have a tough job keeping up with Hamilton over the coming races.


7-3 in qualifying to Hamilton. I don't remember anyone beating Rosberg so comprehensively in qualifying before. To be honest, considering how highly I rate Rosberg, I'm surprised at the gap that's developing, but clearly Hamiliton is beginning to surprise even Mercedes with his pace now which was clear from the team radio after qualifying. He will have more race wins this year and Mercedes are a force to be reckoned with now.

I think we're beginning to see a new maturing Lewis Hamilton and he is going to really come into his own at Mercedes I believe.

Tazio
29th July 2013, 16:05
I think that in my way of comparing the two that this win puts "The Boss" slightly ahead of Nico, although I consider the battle still quite close. If Mr. Hamilton keeps up this form he will easily outdistance NR, and for that matter win the whole dang shootin' match :eek:

Jag_Warrior
29th July 2013, 19:47
I think Hamilton have exchanged his talent for glamour, but Hamilton's talent is better Rosberg's talent. I think for mercedes need other very fast and talent drivers.

How so? It's not an either/or proposition, as I see it. So he has a tattoo, ear rings and a hipster/flyboy haircut. And he has (or had) a pop star girlfriend. Successful drivers from previous eras didn't live like choirboys, so why should he? Until I read about him being found passed out in a cheap hotel room with Lindsay Lohan, somewhere in West Hollywood, I say, have all the fun you want to have kid! You're a multi-millionaire near the top of your game, doing what many of us can only dream about doing. It won't last forever. So balance work and play and enjoy the heck out of la dolce vita!

Personally, I'd like to hear about him going after (Princess) Charlotte Casiraghi. Shake up the Monaco royal family (they haven't had a good scandal in awhile) and get a personal Gucci sponsorship at the same time! :D

The Black Knight
29th July 2013, 20:52
How so? It's not an either/or proposition, as I see it. So he has a tattoo, ear rings and a hipster/flyboy haircut. And he has (or had) a pop star girlfriend. Successful drivers from previous eras didn't live like choirboys, so why should he? Until I read about him being found passed out in a cheap hotel room with Lindsay Lohan, somewhere in West Hollywood, I say, have all the fun you want to have kid! You're a multi-millionaire near the top of your game, doing what many of us can only dream about doing. It won't last forever. So balance work and play and enjoy the heck out of la dolce vita!

Personally, I'd like to hear about him going after (Princess) Charlotte Casiraghi. Shake up the Monaco royal family (they haven't had a good scandal in awhile) and get a personal Gucci sponsorship at the same time! :D

Yeah, members of their royal family have been partial to an F1 driver or two in the past too ya know :D

Mia 01
29th July 2013, 23:53
If it was before, after yesterday it´s no longer. A battle I mean.

Mia 01
30th July 2013, 02:36
And another problem, Seb will end up whith his fourth on a row. His legacy will be ............

The Black Knight
2nd August 2013, 10:10
There's an interesting article here on autosport

Mercedes warns it will get stronger in second half of F1 season - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109121)

What is most interesting about this article to me is the following comment by Ross:


"It is picking up momentum and starting to move in the right direction. We don't know where the limit is; we are on a journey with Lewis and we don't know where the limits are."

We are on a journey with Lewis!

Now that's an interesting one. No mention of Nico. It appears as though Ross has decided Lewis is now their number 1 man for the season. That's not too surprising considering Lewis has been pasting Nico lately but still very interesting.

Garry Walker
2nd August 2013, 11:02
There's an interesting article here on autosport

Mercedes warns it will get stronger in second half of F1 season - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109121)

What is most interesting about this article to me is the following comment by Ross:



We are on a journey with Lewis!

Now that's an interesting one. No mention of Nico. It appears as though Ross has decided Lewis is now their number 1 man for the season. That's not too surprising considering Lewis has been pasting Nico lately but still very interesting.

When Hamilton came to MGP, everyone knew that he was going to be de facto nr.1. He simply is faster than Rosberg.

janneppi
4th August 2013, 11:26
Now that's an interesting one. No mention of Nico. It appears as though Ross has decided Lewis is now their number 1 man for the season. That's not too surprising considering Lewis has been pasting Nico lately but still very interesting.
Perhaps the interview and the writing of it was done focusing on Hamilton and not the team or Rosberg.

Ari33
4th August 2013, 11:43
Combined with the new tyres, future Merc development may allow Lewis to have a serious crack at the WDC. However I'm not convinced they have opened up a clear performance advantage over Red Bull just yet. I reckon Hungary would have been a very different race with Vettel snapping at Hamiltons heels if he (Vettel) had not been held up by Button for so long. I guess Spa might tell us more.

If anyone is sure that Merc have opened up a clear advantage and Lewis has a very good chance at the WDC this year, they might feel the betting odds are pretty good right now (currently around 8/1 for Lewis vs 1/4 for Seb!). ;)

kfzmeister
5th August 2013, 07:38
I reckon Hungary would have been a very different race with Vettel snapping at Hamiltons heels if he (Vettel) had not been held up by Button for so long. I guess Spa might tell us more.


Lewis disposed of Button quickly. Vettel wasn't able to. Took him 12 laps. Yet, you say: "was held up" :D

Ari33
5th August 2013, 10:40
Lewis disposed of Button quickly. Vettel wasn't able to. Took him 12 laps. Yet, you say: "was held up" :D


I thought someone would say that. :D .. and it is a good point to be fair. Are these current 8/1 odds for Lewis winning the WDC this year tempting you? :s mokin:

The Black Knight
5th August 2013, 15:30
Combined with the new tyres, future Merc development may allow Lewis to have a serious crack at the WDC. However I'm not convinced they have opened up a clear performance advantage over Red Bull just yet. I reckon Hungary would have been a very different race with Vettel snapping at Hamiltons heels if he (Vettel) had not been held up by Button for so long. I guess Spa might tell us more.

If anyone is sure that Merc have opened up a clear advantage and Lewis has a very good chance at the WDC this year, they might feel the betting odds are pretty good right now (currently around 8/1 for Lewis vs 1/4 for Seb!). ;)

To be honest, I don't think they need a clear advantage over the Red Bulls. They have Lewis Hamilton. Give him a car that is there or thereabouts and the fastest driver in the world will do the rest :)

Garry Walker
5th August 2013, 19:21
Combined with the new tyres, future Merc development may allow Lewis to have a serious crack at the WDC. However I'm not convinced they have opened up a clear performance advantage over Red Bull just yet. I reckon Hungary would have been a very different race with Vettel snapping at Hamiltons heels if he (Vettel) had not been held up by Button for so long. I guess Spa might tell us more.

If anyone is sure that Merc have opened up a clear advantage and Lewis has a very good chance at the WDC this year, they might feel the betting odds are pretty good right now (currently around 8/1 for Lewis vs 1/4 for Seb!). ;)
If Mercedes had a much better car than RB, then there would be no competition. Hamilton is far better and faster than The Chosen One at Red Bull, Heck, Rosberg is probably faster too.

Mia 01
6th August 2013, 00:09
Yes. I belive that Lewis will need a very good car if he should beat Seb for the title or even beat Kimi. Last year as this year before the last month, Nico has won three race with that car, adorable.

Ari33
6th August 2013, 00:13
If Mercedes had a much better car than RB, then there would be no competition. Hamilton is far better and faster than The Chosen One at Red Bull, Heck, Rosberg is probably faster too.

Not sure I'd fully agree. Vettels consistency has really impressed me over the years even if he has had a very good car. I guess it depends on what your definition of "far better and far faster" is.
If they were team mates at Merc or Red Bull, I think Lewis would might average one tenth of a second qualy advantage over the course of a season but I would not call that "far faster".
Like or loathe Seb you have to admit his consistency is top drawer.

The Black Knight
6th August 2013, 12:45
Not sure I'd fully agree. Vettels consistency has really impressed me over the years even if he has had a very good car. I guess it depends on what your definition of "far better and far faster" is.
If they were team mates at Merc or Red Bull, I think Lewis would might average one tenth of a second qualy advantage over the course of a season but I would not call that "far faster".
Like or loathe Seb you have to admit his consistency is top drawer.

I'm not sure where you come up with this one tenth of a second advantage from but I do believe that Lewis would hammer him in qualifying, personally. Seb has a team working for him to make the car to his liking. If Lewis were his teammate and they had level pecking terms, like there is at Mercedes, then I doubt very much Seb would look as good as he does.

I'm not sure what you mean by consistency either about Seb. Last year in Malaysia he cut across Narain and ruined his own race. It still enrages me that Narain got a penalty for that. He has done plenty of stupid things Seb. In fairness, to give him credit, he is a fantastic driver, but he has been made look better than he is by being given number 1 status in a team that has produced the fastest car for the last 3 and now 4 seasons on the trot.

Lewis, on the other hand since his 2011 woes, has been a model of consistency and really got his act straightened out. I can't remember the last time he actually made a mistake. You can see he is now beginning to embed himself nicely into the Mercedes team and we're really beginning to witness his true quality.

Mia 01
8th August 2013, 00:47
Have to say it, it wont happen this year, and with the engine Mercedes got next year, you have to be a beliver. Most people are here.

The Black Knight
8th August 2013, 10:44
Have to say it, it wont happen this year, and with the engine Mercedes got next year, you have to be a beliver. Most people are here.

He's only 48 points behind with 9 races remaining. There are tracks approaching that won't exactly suit the RBR. It's a difficult task but it is doable. Remember, 48 points is only 19 points in the old system. We all remember Kimi in 2007.

A FONDO
25th August 2013, 09:48
does anybody still think "battle" is the correct word :rolleyes:

truefan72
25th August 2013, 10:06
does anybody still think "battle" is the correct word :rolleyes:

well technically it still is, as Rosberg still has 2 wins to Hamilton's 1
lets hope it is all square after the Spa race
;)

zako85
25th August 2013, 12:57
I'm not sure where you come up with this one tenth of a second advantage from but I do believe that Lewis would hammer him in qualifying, personally. Seb has a team working for him to make the car to his liking. If Lewis were his teammate and they had level pecking terms, like there is at Mercedes, then I doubt very much Seb would look as good as he does.

That's of course entirely a personal opinion.




I'm not sure what you mean by consistency either about Seb. Last year in Malaysia he cut across Narain and ruined his own race. It still enrages me that Narain got a penalty for that. He has done plenty of stupid things Seb. In fairness, to give him credit, he is a fantastic driver, but he has been made look better than he is by being given number 1 status in a team that has produced the fastest car for the last 3 and now 4 seasons on the trot.



Oh please. If Vettel's one mistake from one year ago makes still makes you lose sleep, then maybe you should take some anger management lessons.

Garry Walker
25th August 2013, 20:23
Like or loathe Seb you have to admit his consistency is top drawer.
It is easy to be consistent when your car is much faster than that of your rivals. If he was really consistent he would have won pretty much every race of the past few seasons, because RB has been the fastest and best car in almost every race.

ioan
25th August 2013, 21:33
It is easy to be consistent when your car is much faster than that of your rivals. If he was really consistent he would have won pretty much every race of the past few seasons, because RB has been the fastest and best car in almost every race.

Have another one:

http://www.preparationh.com/sites/default/files/Preparation_H_Ointment_Main.png

And keep it at hand, you'll need it a lot.

dj_bytedisaster
25th August 2013, 22:07
It is easy to be consistent when your car is much faster than that of your rivals. If he was really consistent he would have won pretty much every race of the past few seasons, because RB has been the fastest and best car in almost every race.

Except that you didn't get your facts right. The best car for most of last season was the McLaren. Had they not made every mistake in the book when it comes to strategy and pitstops, Vettel would've gotten nowhere near the title and Hamilton would have two by now. And besides, the best car doesn't mean an automatic win - Webber is living proof of that.

DexDexter
25th August 2013, 22:46
Except that you didn't get your facts right. The best car for most of last season was the McLaren. Had they not made every mistake in the book when it comes to strategy and pitstops, Vettel would've gotten nowhere near the title and Hamilton would have two by now. And besides, the best car doesn't mean an automatic win - Webber is living proof of that.

Still, to be truly great, Vettel needs to win races and the WDC in another team. Until that, it's always about Newey's car etc.

dj_bytedisaster
25th August 2013, 22:55
Still, to be truly great, Vettel needs to win races and the WDC in another team. Until that, it's always about Newey's car etc.

Alonso never won a title in anything but a Renault, Button never in anything but a Brawn, Lewis never in anything but a McLaren, Hakkinen never in anything but a Newey designed McLaren, Mansell never but in a Newey designed Williams, same for Hill and Villeneuve. And Schumacher never won a title in a car that wasn't designed by Rory Byrne. I suppose all of those aren't really that great then??

truefan72
25th August 2013, 23:53
Still, to be truly great, Vettel needs to win races and the WDC in another team. Until that, it's always about Newey's car etc.

that really not a sound argument

pretty much every F1 great has won in dominant cars
with only 3 (greats that is) havign won their titles with 2 different manufacturers
Schumi and prost, and Piquet
aalthugh out of that list piquets feats seem the most impressive as his car was not always thebest

Yes the RBR is in a league of its own and vettel has won thanks to it. But shifting the bar for him makes no sense.
I don't think he is as good a driver as kimi, alonso and hamilton for sure. and his greatness will have an asterik next to it based on the sheer dominance of the RBR.

dj_bytedisaster
26th August 2013, 01:34
that really not a sound argument

pretty much every F1 great has won in dominant cars
with only 3 (greats that is) havign won their titles with 2 different manufacturers
Schumi and prost, and Piquet
aalthugh out of that list piquets feats seem the most impressive as his car was not always thebest

Except for his Mercedes title, most of Fangio's titles were in non-dominant cars.


Yes the RBR is in a league of its own and vettel has won thanks to it. But shifting the bar for him makes no sense.
I don't think he is as good a driver as kimi, alonso and hamilton for sure. and his greatness will have an asterik next to it based on the sheer dominance of the RBR.

That's your opinion, but you have no facts to back it up. If the RB is in a league of his own, Webber must be the most useless chauffeur to disgrace F1 since Jean-Deniz Deletraz if his finishes compared to Vettel are any indication. Comparing drivers, who drive for different teams is a futile exercise to begin with. We can probably agree that Alonso and Kimi are top-notch drivers, but saying that they're head and shoulders above Vettel is devoid of fact. If you take this season - at times the Ferrari and the Merc were better than RB (Hungary, Barcelona), yet he still leads the championship and hasn't finished any lower than 4th. Saying that's the work of the car alone is ridiculous and makes you look like an idiot.

rjbetty
26th August 2013, 03:36
On the subject of Hamilton v Rosberg I will say I think it's odd that Rosberg is supposedly beating Lewis seeing he is 8-3 down in qualifying and 43pts behind.

Though statistics can be misleading - just ask Michael Schumacher last year, who in the final 12 races beat Rosberg 47pts - 26pts, and this despite his "batteries being worn down towards the end" (i.e. getting tired of it all due to age).

airshifter
26th August 2013, 07:09
Except for his Mercedes title, most of Fangio's titles were in non-dominant cars.



That's your opinion, but you have no facts to back it up. If the RB is in a league of his own, Webber must be the most useless chauffeur to disgrace F1 since Jean-Deniz Deletraz if his finishes compared to Vettel are any indication. Comparing drivers, who drive for different teams is a futile exercise to begin with. We can probably agree that Alonso and Kimi are top-notch drivers, but saying that they're head and shoulders above Vettel is devoid of fact. If you take this season - at times the Ferrari and the Merc were better than RB (Hungary, Barcelona), yet he still leads the championship and hasn't finished any lower than 4th. Saying that's the work of the car alone is ridiculous and makes you look like an idiot.

Defending Vettel as superior seems pointless as well. What other top notch drivers has Vettel beaten in equal cars? We know Alonso has bettered several good drivers in equal cars, and that Lewis bettered him when at McLaren. Kimi was 50/50 at Ferrari but otherwise has done very well at both McLaren against their drivers and now at Lotus. Who of a high caliber has Vettel ever faced on equal terms..... Webber?

The Black Knight
26th August 2013, 13:13
That's of course entirely a personal opinion.

It sure is but one held by a lot of people. It's also one that Vettel is going to have to rebuke if he is every to truly be regarded as an all time great because he can keep winning championships in the best car if he wants and never be regarded as a great.


Oh please. If Vettel's one mistake from one year ago makes still makes you lose sleep, then maybe you should take some anger management lessons.

Maybe I do already take anger management lessons!!! You'd never know. I guarantee you though it doesn't make me lose sleep but the penalty was completely unfair. Anyway been over this many times on this forum so not going into it again.