Most overrated and underrated F1 drivers. [Archive]

Coulthard Fan

25th March 2013, 21:45

Seen as a lot of us can't agree about Vettel or Schumacher or even Damon Hill.
I would like to find out who you think the most overrated F1 Champion and most overrated driver in general plus the most underrated.

Most overrated champion: Jenson Button (good with tyres, good in the wet but not the quickest or best overtaker) was lucky with the Brawn but with 3 season already in a Mclaren he should have got more wins and podiums.

Most overrated Driver: Bruno Senna I still firmly believe it was his Surname that got him into F1. If his name was Bruno Smith would he have got so far?

Most underrated driver: Adrian Sutil class act dosn't get enough credit sometimes. He defiantly deserved the seat for 2013

Most underrated champion: Damon Hill deserved the Williams seat for 1997 he is a class act and Frentzen was a shadow of what the car was able to do.
He should have been a double champion.

The Black Knight

25th March 2013, 21:59

dj_bytedisaster

25th March 2013, 22:00

Most overrated champion: Jenson Button (good with tyres, good in the wet but not the quickest or best overtaker) was lucky with the Brawn but with 3 season already in a Mclaren he should have got more wins and podiums.

I disagree. Button may not be at Senna-esque levels, but he is good at driving cars that aren't quite right. Yes, he lucked into the 2009 championship, but that car was so superior everybody would have and he still had to beat his team mate in the same car, which he quite comprehensibly did. I would say Button is even underrated. What he lacks in raw speed, he makes up with experience, consistency and intelligence. That's the same attributes a certain Mr. Prost was famous for.

Most overrated Driver: Bruno Senna I still firmly believe it was his Surname that got him into F1. If his name was Bruno Smith would he have got so far?

Agreed. He had no business in F1.

Most underrated driver: Adrian Sutil class act dosn't get enough credit sometimes. He defiantly deserved the seat for 2013

Agreed.

Most underrated champion: Damon Hill deserved the Williams seat for 1997 he is a class act and Frentzen was a shadow of what the car was able to do.
He should have been a double champion.

Had a good laugh. Hill was solid, but in normal circumstances had absolutely no business being a world champion in the first place. In '94 Schumacher was DSQ'ed from the British GP and banned from two more races. With three more races to collect points in he still didn't manage to seal the title in the friggin best car on the grid. Yes, Schumacher's shunt at Adelaide was rotten, but any serious driver would have had the title sealed by then. Hill was beaten by a canadian in baggy pants and a German who had three GPs less than him. That's laughable. He was beaten three times in his champion year by Schumacher in a Ferrari that was little more than a very expensive paper weight and the Canadian in the baggy pants took the fight down to the very last race. Without Adrian Newey Hill would have barely seen the business end of a podium.

25th March 2013, 22:12

Without Adrian Newey Hill would have barely seen the business end of a podium.

But he did in a Jordan and very nearly did in an Arrows (!) too. Not pretending he was the fastest or most naturally talented driver out there, but as an overall package.. Williams started to go downhill when he left and both Arrows and Jordan took a big upturn whilst he was there. Coincidence?

dj_bytedisaster

25th March 2013, 22:18

But he did in a Jordan and very nearly did in an Arrows (!) too. Not pretending he was the fastest or most naturally talented driver out there, but as an overall package.. Williams started to go downhill when he left and both Arrows and Jordan took a big upturn whilst he was there. Coincidence?

I agree with Hungary '97. That was the one race in his whole career where he really shone. Spa 1998 is a different matter. First of all Coulthard had wrecked half the field and if you watch the documentary "Eddie Jordan: Driving Ambition", you'll know that he actually blackmailed his team into giving Ralf Schumacher, who was much faster than him, a team order to stay behind. He threatened to wreck both cars if they wouldn't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykI39M27y10

Williams downturn didn't begin in 1997. As I recall a Canadian in baggy pants won the title for them this year. Their downturn began when Adrian Newey left and Renault pulled out.

anthonyvop

25th March 2013, 22:25

Of today's driver?

Mark Webber by far.

He has had 3 years in what by consensus is the best car on the grid and has managed to Finish 3rd twice in he WDC and 6th.
Last Sunday he had the lead in the fastest car and still managed to lose.
Do you think that A Schumacher or Alonso would have trusted Vettel to obey team orders? I know I wouldn't have.

tfp

25th March 2013, 23:24

Under rated drivers in my opinion, Ratzenberger and verstappen come to mind (although I await criticism :p ) more recently Kov and petrov, either of those should have had slash's seat. The hulk is definitely another under rated driver.

As for the over rated drivers, ill have to think....

zako85

26th March 2013, 00:35

Of today's driver?

Mark Webber by far.

He has had 3 years in what by consensus is the best car on the grid and has managed to Finish 3rd twice in he WDC and 6th.

I'd disagree. To be overrated, first someone has to rate him high to begin with. He is a fine number 2 for RedBull. He is pretty fast and consistent. However, he is slow enough not to get on Vettel's way most of the time. Would have Vettel won WDC if Webber was actually fast enough to challenge Vettel?

TheFamousEccles

26th March 2013, 05:04

Kerrrriiiist!!!! How many of you don't get it - Webber is every bit as fast as Bieber - his only shortfall is that he is not as much of an arseclown as Bieber. This has been demonstrated time and time again.

dj_bytedisaster

26th March 2013, 07:11

Yeah that's why he lost the 2010 championship by getting hopelessly stuck behind a Russian paydriver in a souped up Clio. Face it - Mark is a good driver, but he is no championship material. He had a decade to prove it and he didn't.

Big Ben

26th March 2013, 09:06

Button overrated? I recall there was some guy among us who really overrated him but we kind of gave him good and his gone now... the one with the metaphysics and stuff...

For me the most overrated champion is the very best ever, the one and only, Michael Schumacher. He was talented and had a very good run but in this sport it matters a lot to be in the right place at the right moment. A footballer might look brilliant in a $h1t team but put the best driver in the worst car and he'll be nowhere. I think there plenty of others with 1,2 or 3 WDC, who in the same circumstances would have done the same as the best ever... But I think Bieber has the potential to climb on top of the list if he wins a few more titles.

26th March 2013, 09:22

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dj_bytedisaster

26th March 2013, 13:45

For me the most overrated champion is the very best ever, the one and only, Michael Schumacher. He was talented and had a very good run but in this sport it matters a lot to be in the right place at the right moment. A footballer might look brilliant in a $h1t team but put the best driver in the worst car and he'll be nowhere. I think there plenty of others with 1,2 or 3 WDC, who in the same circumstances would have done the same as the best ever... But I think Bieber has the potential to climb on top of the list if he wins a few more titles.

I think you're missing a very important thing here. Yes, Schumacher definitely had an über-car between 2000 and 2004, but it was definitely not a case of being in the right place and the right time. He made the place right. He went to Ferrari when they were the laughing stock of F1. The team was a complete joke when he joined them (someone remember engines blowing up on parade laps and parts falling off the car?). He played a major part in luring Brawn and Byrne to Ferrari, two major components in Ferrari's later success.

henners88

26th March 2013, 13:56

I think you're missing a very important thing here. Yes, Schumacher definitely had an über-car between 2000 and 2004, but it was definitely not a case of being in the right place and the right time. He made the place right. He went to Ferrari when they were the laughing stock of F1. The team was a complete joke when he joined them (someone remember engines blowing up on parade laps and parts falling off the car?). He played a major part in luring Brawn and Byrne to Ferrari, two major components in Ferrari's later success.
Its worth noting that Schumacher didn't make the choice to go to Ferrari. His manager Willi Weber spent a considerable amount of time trying to convince him it was a good choice with the help of Jean Todt. Schumacher wanted to sign for Williams initially. It was Todt that attracted Brawn and Byrne to the team not Michael. Obviously his was used as a unique selling point to lure them from an already successful Benetton. Weber had assurances from Todt and a healthy pay cheque to factor in to the deal. Schumacher gets far too much credit than he deserves in this instance and I think its only right to acknowledge the men who put the foundations in place. :)

dj_bytedisaster

26th March 2013, 14:01

henners88

26th March 2013, 14:10

It's not matching the story that is told over here, but then this is Germanyland, where Schumacher was styled as the son of god, so I guess there were a few 'cosmetic changes' to history. But that doesn't change the fact that Schumacher didn't just luck into the best team. He endured 4 seasons of moderate success, before really taking off.
I'm not taking anything away from Schumacher as his history speaks for itself. I've read a few books on the great man and each author has backed up this period with similar accounts. Its also not widely spoken that Michael was not a fan of testing during his early years. He got a little too big for his boots during the 1992 season. He refused to test before Ross Brawn pulled him aside and demonstrated why the likes of Senna and Prost were workaholics in this department. Even a number one driver has to put the effort in to understand the car. It was that instance that turned Schumacher into the driver he was and made him go on to be very successful.

pino

26th March 2013, 14:15

.... But I think Bieber has the potential to climb on top of the list if he wins a few more titles.

I am not comfortable with Nicknames so could you please call him Vettel thanks.

steveaki13

26th March 2013, 17:22

Button overrated? I recall there was some guy among us who really overrated him but we kind of gave him good and his gone now... the one with the metaphysics and stuff...

St.D

truefan72

26th March 2013, 17:40

IMO there are very few overrated drivers and quite a lot of underrated ones
Vettel, like him or not is a 3x back-to back-to back WDC winner, and already showed his pace in a torro rosso the year before.
Now he is still a spoiled and petulant brat, and not as god as Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton in pure racecraft, but not that far behind as some would like to believe

Anybody slagging Schumacher off is really not being honest with themselves. 7X WDC champion, holder of almost every significant F1 record, and while I am far from being a fan of his, I do respect his achievements and racecraft. There is no denying it. to me if anything, last year proved that he still had it and would have finished high in the points of not for lady bad luck. Then again some might argue that it was Karma for all those years of dubious decisions going his and Ferrari's way.

Damon Hill is one of the few that I think is underrated, but not by much. I don't think he was a spectacular driver, but He should have been a 2X WDC champion and I wonder how that conversation about him would be different.

Prost to me was a better driver than Senna. And should have been a 5X WDC winner if not of some ridiculous points systems back in the day. Losing a championship despite scoring more points and having a better season. People like to hail Senna too much IMO and I think (oh the blasphemy) is slightly overrated in comparison to his peers. Was he an excellent driver, yes, was he the best, not in my book. I think the Senna lore comes from an incredible PR machine, combined with his young death and his larger than life character, while he was alive. For those of us old enough to remember him as a driver, and watched his entire career, There were a few other guys on the track that were more than a match for him. Mansell and Piquet, and of course Prost. Piquet was lightning quick, and was more like the kimi of his time. Was a 3X WDC champ and on his day pretty untouchable. Mansell was a bit of an enigma but no denying his racecraft. and if not for a blown tire could have been a 2x WDC winner.

and Finally to Jacques Villeneuve who seems, particularly in this forum, to get mocked quite a bit. Folks forget that he was a very very good driver (arguably better than his father IMO) and before coming to F1 as a phenom, was already and IndyCar Champ, His rookie year was sensational, his 2nd year won the title, and by the 3rd year with a diminished Williams and a notoriously fickle and ridiculous driver management approach of Williams was falling out of favor, mostly due to the fact the team loved to blame the drivers for thir poor results rather than the car. The rest of his career will be defined by an ill advised but noble move to BAR. He should have gone to Ferrari, but of course MSC would have none of that. and imagine how different his career would have looked if he did.

ok, my apologies for the overly long post.

Jag_Warrior

26th March 2013, 17:47

I'd disagree. To be overrated, first someone has to rate him high to begin with. He is a fine number 2 for RedBull. He is pretty fast and consistent. However, he is slow enough not to get on Vettel's way most of the time. Would have Vettel won WDC if Webber was actually fast enough to challenge Vettel?

I know you're talking about Webber, but I would use that same logic to say that Bruno Senna was not overrated. I'm not aware that anyone was realistically expecting him to set the world on fire. Many of us Senna fans wanted to see him do well simply/mainly because we had great love for his uncle. I cheered for Christian Fittipaldi in both F1 and CART for the same reason. But no, I just don't know of anyone who had him winning the WDC or ever driving for Ferrari, McLaren or Red Bull. He was about average, I would say. I can easily think of many drivers who were a lot worse (who also had financial backing) than him. So I'm glad that he made it to F1 and was respectable for the time that he was here. He did a heck of a lot better than Giancarlo Fisichella did when he went to Ferrari. That was actually painful to watch.

As for overrated drivers, I'm beginning to question how good Hulkenberg really is. I like the kid. But it seems like there's a piece to the puzzle that's often missing with him. The same goes for di Resta. But at least we don't have to hear about how Heinz-Harald Frentzen is just as fast as Michael Schumacher anymore. Now that was one overrated (under performing) mope, right there.

dj_bytedisaster

26th March 2013, 20:30

I know you're talking about Webber, but I would use that same logic to say that Bruno Senna was not overrated. I'm not aware that anyone was realistically expecting him to set the world on fire. Many of us Senna fans wanted to see him do well simply/mainly because we had great love for his uncle. I cheered for Christian Fittipaldi in both F1 and CART for the same reason.

There is slight difference though. Christian Fittipaldi came to F1 as the reigning F3000 champion and that was a much bigger achievement that GP2 appears today. Bruno was second in GP2 i think and had an Australian F3 title to his name. Not exactly the credentials of a hero. I also used to cheer for Christian, but I never cheered for Bruno, because I never had the feeling he made it to F1 on merit. Would have been nice to see the Senna name return to F1 glory, but Bruno wasn't it.

He did a heck of a lot better than Giancarlo Fisichella did when he went to Ferrari. That was actually painful to watch.

Apples and Oranges, Sir. In his last race for Force India Fisichella put the thing on pole and only ended up 2nd, because Kimi out-KERS'ed him. Back in the day they would have given him 3 or 4 days of testing at Fiorano and Fisichella would've done just fine, but with today's testing ban he had to jump into a car he knew absolutely nothing about and to be honest he still did 100 times better than Badoer.

As for overrated drivers, I'm beginning to question how good Hulkenberg really is. I like the kid. But it seems like there's a piece to the puzzle that's often missing with him. The same goes for di Resta. But at least we don't have to hear about how Heinz-Harald Frentzen is just as fast as Michael Schumacher anymore. Now that was one overrated (under performing) mope, right there.

Hulk is imho quite good, but not very consistent (yet?) He only has two seasons to his name. People went all oooh and aaah over how good Kimi was after two years away from F1, forgetting that Hulk also came back from the sidelines. We haven't seen much yet from him this year, but I have a feeling we will, although that Sauber doesn't strike me as great a car as people (me included) were believing after winter testing.
Frentzen was for some unexplainable reason woefully underwhelming at Williams,something that seems to happen to quite a few people (Mark or Alex Zanardi come to mind). People were expecting him to be the second coming, because he was on par with a certain M. Schumacher in junior formulae. In the end I think he wasn't that bad. He was in the championship hunt in a Jordan '99, put an ailing Prost 4th on the grid and delivered some good races in that hilarious Arrows, so I don't think he was so bad. But he probably wasn't championship material.

jens

26th March 2013, 22:11

This is a topic, which can often be interesting to think about.

To give a very broad answer, underrated are all those drivers, who were very good, but due to circumstances, luck and opportunities didn't have the chance to show it properly. Basically drivers, who we don't discuss about any more, because we have forgotten them and didn't recognize their skills. There is an endless list of them, so I am not going into it.

Several drivers can be overrated at a given time. Especially very famous drivers – the big stars, who have significant fanbases, who can blow things out of proportions and create a lot of hype. Not that the drivers in question weren't very good, but compared to their peers some things can easily get overblown. Usually we can reflect only after one's career, what was he like. After the dust has settled down.

It would be unfair to say at the moment if Hülkenberg is under- or overrated only after he has been in F1 for merely two seasons, while most likely his best days are yet to come. I believe he has the potential to be one of F1's frontrunners in 5 years' time. Several of current front-runners will have retired by that time, while in addition to Vettel and Hamilton, who we would still expect to be there, other drivers move to the spotlight. Which ones those are, who get the good opportunities, and whether Hulk is among them, remains to be seen.

More specifically about some drivers mentioned here.

Damon Hill was a very fast driver on his day, both in the dry and wet by the way. He gave a run for Prost's money already in his first full season, although arguably Alain was past his prime by that time. But he could struggle with consistency and racecraft in some situation. Perhaps related to his late start of open-wheel racing career. Even though he found speed, he couldn't really iron out some of the rough sides at such age any more. But I can't say Hill is overrated – you often get the feeling he gets very little apprecation.

Bruno Senna – at the moment after that disappointing Williams season he is hardly overrated. But I think in some moments there were certainly higher expectations on him than he delivered. His background contributed to this obviously – including the famous Ayrton quote „if you think I am fast, you haven't seen my nephew yet.“ A saying which some took seriously, probably.

I think you have a point in considering Adrian Sutil as underrated. I don't remember so exactly, but I guess several people reacted like „what has he done?“ on the news of him being considered for a comeback drive. While many felt that F1 had become poorer with the loss of Alguersuari or Kobayashi. Sutil is at least as good as these guys, if not with better consistency. Certainly warrants a competitive F1 drive.

I don't consider Frentzen overrated. Definitely not. Nobody lists him as an all-time great, so the „as fast as Schumacher“ talks are just related to his pre-F1 career. Slightly mercurial driver, but could still be very competitive in his prime. And I think even his Williams stint is slightly underrated. From what I remember, he had pretty bad luck in 1997 (for instance before Hill famously dominated in Hungary, Frentzen was leading it with his 1-stop strategy and was on firm course to win) and ran Villeneuve closer than the points show. And in 1998 Villeneuve and Frentzen were indeed very close in performance – after HHF had already settled into the team.

But everyone has their own point of view. What or who might be overrated for one, is underrated for the other. And vice versa. And that's how we discuss. :D

steveaki13

26th March 2013, 22:49

Currant drivers:

Vettel - Underrated. I dont mind saying it. He has won three titles and despite having a great car surely he deserves more credit.

Webber - Underrated. People compare him to Seb, but thats unbalanced. Seb is a 3 times Champion, and I think Webber is a good Grand Prix winning driver, but many laugh him off as rubbish. (Cue a comment about a car 8 seconds faster than anyone else)

Alonso - Is what he is.

Massa - Underrated. He is a grand prix winner, who matched Schumi in 2006, and could have won the title in 2008. The 2009 accident ruined his career. Only now is he getting going again.

Button - Underrated - Gets stick for his championship in 2009, but it was still a title and gave Lewis more of a run than many thought and has won alot of Grand Prix.

Perez - Overrated - He had a couple of OK seasons at Sauber, with a couple of exceptional tyre related podiums. Although he has done a decent job in the 2 races so far.

Hamitlon - Is what he is. A driver like Alonso who can drive a car above its rank.

Rosberg - ? Not sure. This season may tell us. After Williams time against poor team mates and an old Shoe.

Raikkonen - See Hamilton & Alonso.

Grosjean - ? Not sure again. He crashes too much but is fast.

Sutil - Underrated. He often does a good job but had a reputation as a driver with promise but no substance for a while.

di Resta - Overrated. Hate to say it, but hasn't really impressed much after his debut season.

Hulkenberg - About where he is rated. I think many believe he is race winning material if he can get a decent car.

Gutierrez - To early

Maldonado - Overrated. Won that Race, but really I see occasional speed, but poor judgement and consistancy.

Bottas - To early.

Ricciardo - Overrated- Billed as a future Red Bull driver. At the moment though I dont see it.

Vergne - ? No sure. He looks slightly brighter than Daniel but who can tell.

Bianchi - Underrated. He is looking like he has massive promise that maybe hasn't been realised.

Chilton - Hard to say. We all know he had some money, but lets wait.

Pic - Neither.

VD Garde - To early.

jens

26th March 2013, 23:09

Interesting, SteveAki. In many ways I can feel similarly to you. But I am not sure, how to rate Pérez yet. In fact, I am not even sure, how is he generally rated, so I do not know if he is under- or overrated. But I have considered Hülkenberg as a more complete driver of the two, so I am pondering whether McLaren might have overrated Pérez or not. But this is always a tricky one and something only time can answer. Obviously Kovalainen was also a driver with potential, who McLaren trusted, but it didn't work out.

Vettel and Webber are certainly interesting. I remember pre-2009. Vettel and Webber were going to be team-mates for the first time, but RBR was still considered as a midfield team. From what I remember, this line-up was largely regarded as one of the very best on the grid at the time, despite neither driver having proven himself properly yet! And many people felt that it would be sad if such a good driver pairing would get stuck in a midfield car. Well, luckily they didn't, but it looks like by now people have got tired of seeing them having good cars. :p :

Regarding Grosjean I have to say that as a fan I am having flashbacks to my previous favourite Trulli. Perhaps it is not surprising that I like them both - they share some similarities. Both "sunny" characters with a very good smile, but as top drivers a little bit flawed. Looking at Romain I can't help but feel that he is another driver, who is going to fit into the "mercurial" category, after whose career it will be concluded that he "did not fulfill his potential". Though I have to say Romain still has work to do to even reach Trulli's level. He was crashing a bit too much last year. But perhaps he can have a solid career with some (more) podiums and perhaps an odd win here and there too.

henners88

27th March 2013, 08:16

Prost to me was a better driver than Senna. And should have been a 5X WDC winner if not of some ridiculous points systems back in the day. Losing a championship despite scoring more points and having a better season. People like to hail Senna too much IMO and I think (oh the blasphemy) is slightly overrated in comparison to his peers. Was he an excellent driver, yes, was he the best, not in my book. I think the Senna lore comes from an incredible PR machine, combined with his young death and his larger than life character, while he was alive. For those of us old enough to remember him as a driver, and watched his entire career, There were a few other guys on the track that were more than a match for him. Mansell and Piquet, and of course Prost. Piquet was lightning quick, and was more like the kimi of his time. Was a 3X WDC champ and on his day pretty untouchable. Mansell was a bit of an enigma but no denying his racecraft. and if not for a blown tire could have been a 2x WDC winner.

I think Senna's personality and openness with his feelings added to his legacy. I'm not old enough to have seen the whole of Senna's career but I did witness him live at Silverstone in 1993 which coincidently was the first GP I ever attended. I was a fan of Senna but not because I had any really opinion on his character, I was too young to put that much thought in to things. I liked his helmet design, the fact he was a World Champion and most of the people I knew at the time disliked him and were Mansell fans. Senna was like a black sheep and something different I suppose. I've warmed to him more in later years now I have learnt more about him. Watching him get killed on TV was something I will never forget and as a child you become curious as to why a man who you've spent time drawing and staring at on a poster on your bedroom wall, is suddenly the focus everywhere because he has died. I don't believe Senna was the best ever, but he will always be one of the greats. A flawed genius just like Schumacher and one of the best of their generation. I don't think either are overrated. I do agree many other drivers are overlooked during their periods though. Prost is a perfect example of that, but anyone with any knowledge of the sport knows how good Prost was IMO. :)

Tazio

27th March 2013, 08:46

Depending on whom you listened to, Nick Heidfeld was simultaneously the most overrated, and underrated driver during his time in F1 :crazy:

AndyL

27th March 2013, 11:43

Depending on whom you listened to, Nick Heidfeld was simultaneously the most overrated, and underrated driver during his time in F1 :crazy:

I was just going to mention Nick Heidfeld :) Surely he must be underrated because no-one can remember a single thing he did in his entire career, yet somehow he racked up enough results to compare favourably against Kubica, who it's generally acknowledged was a great talent.

steveaki13

27th March 2013, 18:01

I always thought highly of Nick.

A driver who would always bring you points. One of the best drivers never to win a GP

Tazio

27th March 2013, 18:29

I always thought highly of Nick.

A driver who would always bring you points. One of the best drivers never to win a GPI also always held Nick in high regard but his detractors were many, and his protractors could be way over the top effusive. At least that is my recollection of his racing days.
I guess that is probably true of all respectable F1 drivers’ public perception however

anthonyvop

27th March 2013, 22:42

rjbetty

27th March 2013, 23:25

Underrated: Webber - I always felt Webber has been underrated and never got enough credit for his years at Red Bull in 07 and 08. I feel he was especially overlooked while at Williams, including Williams themselves. People felt he wouldn't get many podiums in 2010: I felt like one of the few who felt Red Bull would produce the fastest car by a stretch and Webber would be in the top 4 in the WDC.

Underrated: Vitaly Petrov - I think he should have had more credit for being the quickest Renault driver in 2011. I think he did much better at Caterham than people give him credit for. It's also the way his consistency and racecraft improved a lot each year that impressed me. It was largely unnoticed though...

Overrated: Hmmm I don't really feel any driver in 2013 is particularly overrated, but if I pick one I still say Kimi. I need some good evidence to believe he was on the level of Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton last year. Remember that he only averaged the same level as Grosjean in qualifying. I believe he probably wouldn't have done any better than Jenson just on qualifying last year. His consistency and racecraft however was every bit as good as Alonso's though I think!

Yet for all that, I think people are going way OTT declaring he was the best driver in 2012. I also don't think Hamilton or Alonso would have been beaten by Massa as Raikkonen was...

keysersoze

28th March 2013, 02:03

Least talented WDC: Hill. He was great at testing, setting the car up, qualifying, and running up front, but could struggle when he had to go wheel-to-wheel. I must give him his due, however; when he left Williams he had a few sterling moments.

If Massa had managed to pull off the title in '08 (?), he would likely join Damon in this group, for much the same reason.

Keke was quite the talent but had Villenueve survived or Didier didn't crush his legs I doubt Keke would've challenged. That was an odd season, and IIRC even Laffite had a chance going into the final round.

Best driver to not win a WDC. I dunno--Peterson? Gilles?

Rollo

28th March 2013, 03:27

Most overrated champion:
Keke Rosberg.
He only won a single race in 1982 and even then only because Pironi didn't race the last five races and because the race officials were so inept that the race he did win went one lap longer than it should have.

Most overrated Driver:
Jacques Villeneuve
Some say that Hill's victory in 1996 happened because he was in the best car and that a trained monkey could have won. If that's true, then 1997 was the year that that trained monkey did win. He'd go on for another 9 seasons claiming that he was King of Town but 3rds was the best he would ever get again.

Most underrated driver:
Graham Hill

Twice World Champion, the only driver to win the Triple Crown of Motorsport (though Mario Andretti has his own) but let his career down by tooling about in cars that really deserved to be relegated to club motorsport. If he'd quit at the end of '68 he'd have a far nicer looking resume.

Most underrated champion:
Alain Prost
Prost didn't win in 1984 because Jacky Ickx red flagged the race before time so that Prost's Porsche engined car would win the race (he was later suspended from race control duties in F1 for it). Had the race gone to 75% distance, Prost could have got 6 points for second instead of 4.5 points for the win and not lost the championship by half a point.
Prost didn't win in 1988 because he was more successful and scored more points than Senna. Owing to the stupidity that allowed drivers to drop points, Senna was able to drop a disqualification which he caused and a DNF which he also caused; Prost though dropped actual points.
Prost didn't win in 1990 because Senna was a criminal.

I reckon he could have won 2 more apart from these three but for other circumstances and that he'd be sitting on 7 championships and maybe more.

Best driver to not win a WDC. I dunno--Peterson? Gilles?

Pironi.

Ranger

28th March 2013, 05:48

Pironi.

Beaten by Depailler 34-7 in 1978;
Equalled by Jarier 14-14 in 1979; (Jarier missed two races)
Beaten by Laffite 34-32 in 1980;
Beaten by Villeneuve 25-9 in 1981.

So not even close to being the best who didn't win.

I'm inclined to think 1982 would have been a walk in the park for either Ferrari driver, had they both made it to the end of the season. Tragically it wasn't the case.

AndyL

28th March 2013, 10:27

his protractors could be way over the top effusive.

I guess they were looking at it from a different angle.

dj_bytedisaster

28th March 2013, 12:32

I guess they were looking at it from a different angle.

Look into an encyclopedia under 'dependability' and you'll find 'see Heidfeld'. Give him a car capable of delivering points and he delivers points. The thing that he lacks is the ability to stick a car where it doesn't belong both in positive and negative sense of the phrase.

Big Ben

28th March 2013, 14:30

I think you're missing a very important thing here. Yes, Schumacher definitely had an über-car between 2000 and 2004, but it was definitely not a case of being in the right place and the right time. He made the place right. He went to Ferrari when they were the laughing stock of F1. The team was a complete joke when he joined them (someone remember engines blowing up on parade laps and parts falling off the car?). He played a major part in luring Brawn and Byrne to Ferrari, two major components in Ferrari's later success.

I'm missing the point a lot. I thought he was most overrated because people say he was the best driver ever and I think it's an exaggeration .... when in fact not only was he the best driver, he was also the best team manager ever. I want to change my vote, most underrated champion: Michael Schumacher.

wedge

28th March 2013, 15:29

Button - Underrated - Gets stick for his championship in 2009, but it was still a title and gave Lewis more of a run than many thought and has won alot of Grand Prix.

He's both.

Whenever he wins he's lauded as a great. Take winning Melbourne last year people thought that the Pirelli's would suit Button because of the much abused term "smooth driving style" used by fans and professional critics alike and it certainly was not the case.

If you're struggling with tyre temperatures and your team mate isn't then you're over rated.

If you win races and give Hamilton a good run for his money then you're under rated.

Webber is definitely not under rated. At the infancy of car development then Webber can be a match and more (especially 2010) but with the DDD Vettel was better driver, with EBD Vettel was better driver, with DDRS Vettel driver.

truefan72

28th March 2013, 17:31

Most overrated champion:
Keke Rosberg.
He only won a single race in 1982 and even then only because Pironi didn't race the last five races and because the race officials were so inept that the race he did win went one lap longer than it should have.

Most overrated Driver:
Jacques Villeneuve
Some say that Hill's victory in 1996 happened because he was in the best car and that a trained monkey could have won. If that's true, then 1997 was the year that that trained monkey did win. He'd go on for another 9 seasons claiming that he was King of Town but 3rds was the best he would ever get again.

Most underrated driver:
Graham Hill

Twice World Champion, the only driver to win the Triple Crown of Motorsport (though Mario Andretti has his own) but let his career down by tooling about in cars that really deserved to be relegated to club motorsport. If he'd quit at the end of '68 he'd have a far nicer looking resume.

Most underrated champion:
Alain Prost
Prost didn't win in 1984 because Jacky Ickx red flagged the race before time so that Prost's Porsche engined car would win the race (he was later suspended from race control duties in F1 for it). Had the race gone to 75% distance, Prost could have got 6 points for second instead of 4.5 points for the win and not lost the championship by half a point.
Prost didn't win in 1988 because he was more successful and scored more points than Senna. Owing to the stupidity that allowed drivers to drop points, Senna was able to drop a disqualification which he caused and a DNF which he also caused; Prost though dropped actual points.
Prost didn't win in 1990 because Senna was a criminal.

I reckon he could have won 2 more apart from these three but for other circumstances and that he'd be sitting on 7 championships and maybe more.

Pironi.

agree with everything except Jacques Villeneuve. It is fashionable to have a go at him, but I watched those races and it was anything but gifted to him.
he drove exceptionally well his first year and still had his teammate to contend with and that was arguably the easier year.
and in his championship year drove very well indeed holding off MSC with 6 wins to MSC's 5 and a close championship

Jag_Warrior

28th March 2013, 17:45

There is slight difference though. Christian Fittipaldi came to F1 as the reigning F3000 champion and that was a much bigger achievement that GP2 appears today. Bruno was second in GP2 i think and had an Australian F3 title to his name. Not exactly the credentials of a hero. I also used to cheer for Christian, but I never cheered for Bruno, because I never had the feeling he made it to F1 on merit. Would have been nice to see the Senna name return to F1 glory, but Bruno wasn't it.

As for why I cheered for both of them, there is no difference at all. I cheered for both because of who their uncles were. I didn't cheer for every F3000 champ back then and I don't cheer for every GP2 champ now. I'm not speaking about how I would rate Bruno vs. Christian. Clearly, Christian would be the higher rated driver. But that wasn't my point. And while Bruno's name (and backing) certainly helped him get into and stay in F1, I'm still not aware that any reputable source rated him all that highly. So no, I would not say that he was ever over-rated.

Apples and Oranges, Sir. In his last race for Force India Fisichella put the thing on pole and only ended up 2nd, because Kimi out-KERS'ed him. Back in the day they would have given him 3 or 4 days of testing at Fiorano and Fisichella would've done just fine, but with today's testing ban he had to jump into a car he knew absolutely nothing about and to be honest he still did 100 times better than Badoer.

Well, if comparing Bruno to Fisichella is apples and oranges, then comparing Fisi to Badoer must be pineapples and oranges.

Hulk is imho quite good, but not very consistent (yet?) He only has two seasons to his name. People went all oooh and aaah over how good Kimi was after two years away from F1, forgetting that Hulk also came back from the sidelines. We haven't seen much yet from him this year, but I have a feeling we will, although that Sauber doesn't strike me as great a car as people (me included) were believing after winter testing.

I like the kid. But as yet, he has not lived up to the hype, IMO.

Frentzen was for some unexplainable reason woefully underwhelming at Williams,something that seems to happen to quite a few people (Mark or Alex Zanardi come to mind). People were expecting him to be the second coming, because he was on par with a certain M. Schumacher in junior formulae. In the end I think he wasn't that bad. He was in the championship hunt in a Jordan '99, put an ailing Prost 4th on the grid and delivered some good races in that hilarious Arrows, so I don't think he was so bad. But he probably wasn't championship material.

What I'm referring to with Frentzen was the constant (and I do mean constant) claim that he was just as fast as Michael Schumacher... based on races of days gone by in lower formulas. That would be like claiming that Danica Patrick is just as fast as whomever, based solely on her days racing go-karts against (now) more accomplished racers. It's not that Frentzen was horrible. Being over-rated does not mean that a driver is horrible. It just means that they tend to have more sizzle than steak.

dj_bytedisaster

28th March 2013, 17:52

Well, if comparing Bruno to Fisichella is apples and oranges, then comparing Fisi to Badoer must be pineapples and oranges.

No, I actually meant to put Fisico's "achievements" in the Ferrari into perspective. A guy, who put a Force India on pole hasn't forgotten to ow to drive two weeks later.

dj_bytedisaster

28th March 2013, 18:01

What I'm referring to with Frentzen was the constant (and I do mean constant) claim that he was just as fast as Michael Schumacher... based on races of days gone by in lower formulas. That would be like claiming that Danica Patrick is just as fast as whomever, based solely on her days racing go-karts against (now) more accomplished racers. It's not that Frentzen was horrible. Being over-rated does not mean that a driver is horrible. It just means that they tend to have more sizzle than steak.

Agree. Frentzen was burdened with too much expectation as was Wendlinger, both of whom slapped a certain M. Schumacher from left to right on occasion in F3. Same goes for Danica. I've always been a great sucker for women to make it in motorsports and great racers like Cyndie Allemann or Danica Patrick don't nearly get the credits that are due. She was second in the British Formula Ford festival, something that looks on the surface like not a mean feat, especially for an american on a track that involves corners, but she was second to A.Davidson, who has done exactly nothing in F1. So she's burdened with expectations higher than she can meet. But sure as hell if someone finally gets off his arse and signs the girl, I'll be visiting every race that I can get a flight to.
Unfortunately she seems to settle for NASCRAP though :(

Jag_Warrior

29th March 2013, 17:36

So she's burdened with expectations higher than she can meet. But sure as hell if someone finally gets off his arse and signs the girl, I'll be visiting every race that I can get a flight to.

Unfortunately she seems to settle for NASCRAP though :(

I understand your point. But I would say that she and her PR handlers have created most of those high expectations. That's how she gets paid so well, while accomplishing so very little in relative terms. IMO, she's burdened by a greater desire for fame & fortune than a desire to be a better (road course) racer. She stopped working on that skill, so she is now what she is. At one time, I honestly believed that she had the raw talent to be an accomplished road course racer, and not just an accomplished female road course racer - now she's not even that... plus, she's not exactly a spring chicken anymore either. Since cars know no gender, I have never seen that gender, race or religion mattered in racing - outside of the opportunities available, I mean. But now, no F1 team would sign someone who spent most of her last season peddling around the back of the field in the IRL (or Indy Car or ICS or whatever they're calling it this month). NASCAR is the series where she's most likely to achieve what she (truly) wants: fame & fortune. Other than that mysterious pole at Daytona, I don't expect she'll accomplish much in NASCAR, despite having top equipment, just as she had in the IRL. But she'll sell lots of t-shirts, posters and books.

Funny that we were discussing Bruno making it to F1 on factors other than talent and now we mention The Danica. On a bad day, with a head cold and a sore arm, I'm sure that Bruno could wipe the track with her. Has there ever been a racer who has never won a professional road course race getting a seat in F1? Ever? Heck, even Milka Duno has won a pro road course race - but not The Danica. There is simply no reason that I can think of that someone with such a lack of accomplishment (male or female) should ever be in F1, unless they buy a ticket to the race. I'm so very glad that she's not in F1. But Danica Patrick is (IMO) easily the most over-hyped, most over-rated racing driver of this generation, I would say.

IMO, the best way to demonstrate diversity is to have accomplished people, with diverse backgrounds, who are in the series because they're good enough to be there - even if they're not the best of their class (like Bruno, Pastor or whomever). I personally don't think it's a good idea to have someone around, who is a road racing flop, who is just in the sport or series because they're cute or female or Black or Jewish or gay or whatever. Just my 2 pennies...

But F1, like life, ain't fair. So who knows what sorts of drivers might come along if the $ can be found to stick them in a car?

dj_bytedisaster

29th March 2013, 17:58

Funny that we were discussing Bruno making it to F1 on factors other than talent and now we mention The Danica. On a bad day, with a head cold and a sore arm, I'm sure that Bruno could wipe the track with her. Has there ever been a racer who has never won a professional road course race getting a seat in F1? Ever? Heck, even Milka Duno has won a pro road course race - but not The Danica. There is simply no reason that I can think of that someone with such a lack of accomplishment (male or female) should ever be in F1, unless they buy a ticket to the race. I'm so very glad that she's not in F1. But Danica Patrick is (IMO) easily the most over-hyped, most over-rated racing driver of this generation, I would say.

I don't quite agree. Yes, she's better on Ovals than on streets,but so is every American. They just can't handle right turns. The fact that she did well in Europe says a lot about her talent. That she didn't back that up in Americaland is because it is a skill that isn't in high demand - most of the tracks there have exactly four corners anf they're all to the left. Had she stayed in Europe, developing a different skillset, she could be F1 material. Women are generally disadvantaged. Take Cyndie Allemann and Natacha Gachnang for instance. Those two girls won each and every kart race in the Swiss championship between them in 2000. The only male winner that year was Maxim Götze in an invitation race that didn't pay points. Cydie would later on become European Champion as well. Once they got out of karts they went to junior formulae but never got really competetive material. Gachnang loitered about in German junior formulae with one year old machinery and Cyndie spent her time in old kit as well and even then she managed two podium positions and and pole in last year's machinery. Any of those three - Cyndie, Natacha or Danica could make it in F1. They would probably not set the world ablaze, but they couldn't do any worse than Max Chilton, even if they tried...

Jag_Warrior

29th March 2013, 18:28

I don't quite agree. Yes, she's better on Ovals than on streets,but so is every American. They just can't handle right turns. The fact that she did well in Europe says a lot about her talent. That she didn't back that up in Americaland is because it is a skill that isn't in high demand - most of the tracks there have exactly four corners anf they're all to the left. Had she stayed in Europe, developing a different skillset, she could be F1 material. Women are generally disadvantaged. Take Cyndie Allemann and Natacha Gachnang for instance. Those two girls won each and every kart race in the Swiss championship between them in 2000. The only male winner that year was Maxim Götze in an invitation race that didn't pay points. Cydie would later on become European Champion as well. Once they got out of karts they went to junior formulae but never got really competetive material. Gachnang loitered about in German junior formulae with one year old machinery and Cyndie spent her time in old kit as well and even then she managed two podium positions and and pole in last year's machinery. Any of those three - Cyndie, Natacha or Danica could make it in F1. They would probably not set the world ablaze, but they couldn't do any worse than Max Chilton, even if they tried...

I'm not sure I understand how Danica being an American disadvantaged her on road courses when she "trained" primarily on European road courses, and then when she came back to this country she was in series (Barber-Dodge and Toyota Atlantics) that were 100% road course series - and she didn't win any races in those series either. Americans have won lots of Barber-Dodge and Atlantics races. Women have won in those series too. Why not Danica? She had top equipment. She developed a road course skill set. And IMO, she should have continued developing that skill set, whether here or in Europe. But once the fame hit, from what I was told by a Team Rahal employee back then, she started working harder on the PR than the racing. Even in NASCAR, Danica has allegedly been technically weak - maybe she's getting better now, I can't say. But compared to other drivers her age and with her experience, she should have a better understanding of what makes the car do what she needs it to do to run up front.

But going back to my original question, why would F1 make a place for someone who has never in her life won a road course race and she's now 31 years old? And even in a relatively low talent series like the IRL, she couldn't win a road course race. F1 has basically turned its back on American open wheel drivers since CART went away. I believe Bourdais was the last one we sent over from CCWS and even he didn't do so well. But he was good... very good.

I don't mean to be offensive at all. But I've just not seen anything in Danica Patrick to suggest that she would be anything other than a PR (or affirmative action) experiment if she was in F1. If she couldn't race an IRL spec car on a road course, there's just not much hope that she could do anything in a grand prix car. It's cool to like her (for whatever reason). But what other driver would we be discussing in such detail that has her resume (or lack thereof)? That's why I say that she's over-rated and over-hyped: lots of sizzle... very little steak. Even the worst F1 drivers have better resumes than her.

markabilly

30th March 2013, 16:03

.........................................
I don't mean to be offensive at all. But I've just not seen anything in Danica Patrick to suggest that she would be anything other than a PR (or affirmative action) experiment if she was in F1. If she couldn't race an IRL spec car on a road course, there's just not much hope that she could do anything in a grand prix car. It's cool to like her (for whatever reason). But what other driver would we be discussing in such detail that has her resume (or lack thereof)? That's why I say that she's over-rated and over-hyped: lots of sizzle... very little steak. Even the worst F1 drivers have better resumes than her.

But it is about the show and what sells, be it DRS or tires et al bruti......pure racing is no longer enough, not even in F1 anymore. Indeed, it is anything but pure racing in F1 nowadays

markabilly

30th March 2013, 16:14

the problem is that we fans rely on results.

The ones who are in a better position to know are the engineers who read the electronic data feedback from the car as to how the driver is doing with the car.

Then there is the question of driver style and how a car is set up, even between two team mates on the same team, that it makes it very difficult to compare who is the better driver even when they are driving the same basis car.

My suspicion is that once the car is truly set up for Lewis, Nico will be left behind.

My suspicion that if the car is set up better for Nico than Lewis, Lewis will be not doing so well.

I think if Schumacher had come back to Merc with the same set of rules on everything, including fueling, et al, as when he first left F1, and the car set up for him, poor Nico would have been left in the dust.

But who knows......

I do think that Vettel has developed a style that makes him currently the best driver to drive the current F1 cars under the current rules. But does that mean he is the best???

I dunno. for all we know some driver in one of the back markers might be better or more capable than all of the big names

Bezza

2nd April 2013, 17:27

Most over-rated driver in F1 is without doubt Paul di Resta.

To me he has not shown any flashes of brilliance and his current attitude is a clear sign that he knows he is blowing his chances. Sutil walks back into F1 and leads a Grand Prix in his first race. Last season he was outshone by Hulkenberg, and he didn't react well to it. After Melbourne, same again - he came across as a right arrogant twerp when asked about his race.

With Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Buemi, Kovalainen and Petrov on the sidelines - I don't see how di Resta is any more deserving.

And with Bianchi looking immense already, I think di Resta will be next in line to drop away.

Jag_Warrior

2nd April 2013, 17:45

Kobayashi should have a seat!

tfp

2nd April 2013, 23:47

wedge

3rd April 2013, 16:34

Nomination for underrated driver (or should that be under-appreciated driver): John Watson - a fantastic racer who could trump anyone on his day.

Most overrated driver: Jean Alesi

P3ws

5th April 2013, 21:46

Most overrated champion:
Keke Rosberg.
He only won a single race in 1982 and even then only because Pironi didn't race the last five races and because the race officials were so inept that the race he did win went one lap longer than it should have.

Well, Keke did run a non turbocharged car. Guess what the others around or should i say in front of him drove?
But them turbo cars did break down more frequently.
Look here and still say he is overrated. Keke Rosberg Best Drives Monaco 1983 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wkB6sLUT50)
and why not this F1 Long Beach 1983 Start - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkgV-CgOc-k)
Silverstone laprecord was his until 2002.

A charger he was.

jens

9th April 2013, 20:54

I certainly can't consider Rosberg overrated. While the championship was certainly a result of fortunate circumstances, Rosberg as a driver was an excellent racer.

Years ago I watched a lot of season reviews and in my view he was one of the standout drivers during 1982-85. Especially in 82-84 he basically had an underpowered car and was fighting against odds over a full season, being dependent on the (un)reliability of turbos. The good Williams chassis was competitive on street circuits, but on power circuits turbos had the edge.

Regardless of circumstances, Rosberg drove very well in 1982. Not least of all, in 1985 he beat future WDC Mansell too. 1986 was unsuccessful, but he was new to the McLaren team and couldn't adapt to TAG Porsche fuel management properly in which Prost was notably better. If I recall correctly, Rosberg ran out of fuel on several occasions after being fast during the race.

TheFamousEccles

10th April 2013, 00:43

In regard to Keke I am reminded of a saying - "to finish first, first you must finish".

BDunnell

10th April 2013, 01:13

Nomination for underrated driver (or should that be under-appreciated driver): John Watson - a fantastic racer who could trump anyone on his day.

Oh, yes: definitely. It seems odd to say a racing driver is exceptional because of their overtaking skill, but that's certainly true of Watson. The statistics regarding the grid positions from which he scored almost all his victories bear this out.

Meanwhile, I have long considered Tony Brooks to be the best Grand Prix driver very few people have heard of, even in his home country.

Garry Walker

16th April 2013, 18:36

I disagree. Button may not be at Senna-esque levels, but he is good at driving cars that aren't quite right. Yes, he lucked into the 2009 championship, but that car was so superior everybody would have and he still had to beat his team mate in the same car, which he quite comprehensibly did. He did not drive the RB that year.

Look into an encyclopedia under 'dependability' and you'll find 'see Heidfeld'. Give him a car capable of delivering points and he delivers points. The thing that he lacks is the ability to stick a car where it doesn't belong both in positive and negative sense of the phrase.
It is a shame NH never got a real top car. Everyone always hyped up Kubica, but in reality Heidfeld matched him very often. I think Heidfeld would do very well in today's F1. There are so many complete jokes in F1 right now, yet a guy like him is out of seat.

Most overrated: Easy. The backstabber. Easiest question ever. Another driver who is very overrated is Gilles Villeneuve. Sure, he was a spectacular driver, but his speed is overrated.

Most underrated: Prost possibly. Rarely do people rate him among the very best (like Senna, Schumacher, Clark and Fangio), but there has never been a driver in F1 with a more impressive list of teammates than what he had and he did well against all of them, even Senna. Prost would love the era we have now, I am sure he would shine nowadays.

BDunnell

16th April 2013, 18:40

Garry Walker

16th April 2013, 18:55

He also won a championship in a car that wasn't the best, in 1986 — a rare achievement.

Indeed and what makes him even more impressive is how close he was to several other titles.
2 points in 1983, 0,5 points in 1984, 3 in 1988 and 7 in 1990.

steveaki13

16th April 2013, 20:15

Most underrated: Prost possibly. Rarely do people rate him among the very best (like Senna, Schumacher, Clark and Fangio), but there has never been a driver in F1 with a more impressive list of teammates than what he had and he did well against all of them, even Senna. Prost would love the era we have now, I am sure he would shine nowadays.

He also won a championship in a car that wasn't the best, in 1986 — a rare achievement.

Indeed and what makes him even more impressive is how close he was to several other titles.
2 points in 1983, 0,5 points in 1984, 3 in 1988 and 7 in 1990.

Agree. He is always pushed aside in discussions by Senna, which for me is very unfair.

He was one of the very best and should be remembered better than he is.

webberf1

17th April 2013, 00:13

Most underrated is probably Hulkenberg. If he was rated anywhere near as much as he deserves, he would be the one driving for McLaren this year.

BDunnell

17th April 2013, 00:14

Indeed and what makes him even more impressive is how close he was to several other titles.
2 points in 1983, 0,5 points in 1984, 3 in 1988 and 7 in 1990.

Absolutely.

Koz

17th April 2013, 02:35

Most underrated is probably Hulkenberg. If he was rated anywhere near as much as he deserves, he would be the one driving for McLaren this year.

It surprises me how people jump on these guys after a year or two in the sport.
It wasn't too long ago Petrov was called a future world champion, a few months later a pay driver...

Same for Perez, how brilliant a driver he is. And now how he does not deserve to be in the McLaren.

Hulkenberg was head and shoulders above di Resta only after Perez was already signed to McLaren, up to that point there wasn't much to chose between them. I don't think it comes into play.

faster69

17th April 2013, 06:41

schumacher is underrated. everyone has it in their heads that 2000-2004 was due to a large budget, bridgestone tyres, testing (which all top teams did believe it or not) and byrne/todt/brawn. it was only 2002 and 2004 where he had a truly dominant car. 2001 was slightly superior to the field but this was magnified by hakkinen performing poorly and the williams lacking reliability.

the most famous and recognisable team in f1 has one drivers title in the last 33 years if you exclude schumacher's achievements. says it all really.

BDunnell

17th April 2013, 09:24

Ranger

17th April 2013, 12:05

Any list of greatest drivers that does not include Alain Prost in it's top 5 is not worth reading, IMO.

A higher quality list of team-mates to have raced against - and beaten - I am yet to see.

Points:
Year: Prost: Team-mate: Difference: Team-mate:
1980 5 6 -1 John Watson
1981 43 11 +32 René Arnoux
1982 34 28 +6 René Arnoux
1983 57 22 +35 Eddie Cheever
1984 71.5 72 -0.5 Niki Lauda ***
1985 73(76) 14 +59 (+62) Niki Lauda ***
1986 72(74) 22 +50 (+52) Keke Rosberg *
1987 46 30 +16 Stefan Johansson
1988 87(105) 90(94) -3 (+11) Ayrton Senna ***
1989 76(81) 60 +16 (+21) Ayrton Senna ***
1990 71(73) 37 +34 (+36) Nigel Mansell *
1991 34 21 +13 Jean Alesi
1993 99 69 +30 Damon Hill *

Heidfeld was also underrated - although almost totally anonymous. There must be a bigger reason why he got overlooked or kicked out so many times in his career and it can't have just been money.

jens

17th April 2013, 20:12

Heidfeld is certainly an interesting one. Though it is true that he didn't really have standout performances (so that nobody remembers anything from his career like one said), his general median performance level was still very high in F1 terms, which means that on his bad days he was still pretty good and over a full season collected lots of points.

From the current grid Sutil and di Resta remind me Heidfeld, although I am not sure their average level is quite a match to Nick yet, but we will see. But both Sutil and di Resta seem to have something in common - they seem quite competent and consistent, I don't really see them making many mistakes nor truly underperforming, which means they usually put the car at about where it should sit. So they are consistently competing for points. Di Resta had a bad patch at the end of last year, but everyone has had it. Overall I think he is fine.

So both Sutil and di Resta may possibly be overlooked. While you wouldn't expect them to win championships if they get a top car one day, they may still be good #2's and collect lots of points. But we can't find out for a while. I'll go on a limb and say I wouldn't have a problem if either of them got a top seat in the next few years in F1, even though people would rather to see the likes of Hülkenberg, Ricciardo, etc in top teams in the future.

After all, in my view the most important thing in F1 is to collect as many points as possible over a full season. That's what all the racing strategy is aimed at. It is nice to be spectacular, but if you can't get WDC's nor a good position for your team in WCC with that, there is little use of that. Hence I think clinical "points-drivers" shouldn't be underestimated even if they are not spectacular.

BDunnell

17th April 2013, 20:29

From the current grid Sutil and di Resta remind me Heidfeld, although I am not sure their average level is quite a match to Nick yet, but we will see. But both Sutil and di Resta seem to have something in common - they seem quite competent and consistent, I don't really see them making many mistakes nor truly underperforming, which means they usually put the car at about where it should sit. So they are consistently competing for points. Di Resta had a bad patch at the end of last year, but everyone has had it. Overall I think he is fine.

So both Sutil and di Resta may possibly be overlooked. While you wouldn't expect them to win championships if they get a top car one day, they may still be good #2's and collect lots of points. But we can't find out for a while. I'll go on a limb and say I wouldn't have a problem if either of them got a top seat in the next few years in F1, even though people would rather to see the likes of Hülkenberg, Ricciardo, etc in top teams in the future.

I don't think it's possible to think of such drivers as over-rated or under-rated at this point in their careers.

jens

17th April 2013, 21:02

I don't think it's possible to think of such drivers as over-rated or under-rated at this point in their careers.

Yes, that's also true. However, I think I had them as examples of how driving styles can influence ratings from a wider point of view. "Spectacular" can often add an extra plus in the eyes of a casual observer, even if it isn't reflected by the stopwatch.

BDunnell

17th April 2013, 21:05

Yes, that's also true. However, I think I had them as examples of how driving styles can influence ratings from a wider point of view. "Spectacular" can often add an extra plus in the eyes of a casual observer, even if it isn't reflected by the stopwatch.

Very good point.

steveaki13

17th April 2013, 21:15

jens

17th April 2013, 21:23

Heidfeld was also great as you say in collecting points.

The seasons at BMW in 2007 & 2008 were his best in a good car collected so many points and podiums and matched Kubica all the way. I would love to have seen him get a top drive just to see if he could make that step up.

2008 wasn't that good - he was struggling with qualifying and was "saved" by a relatively wet season, which enabled him to overcome the deficit with some good strategy and driving and score the points.

But 2007 was truly good. In my book one of the best drivers that year, along the Top3 in the championship. Often got 4th place finishes, which means he beat someone from two top teams, who happened to have a bad day there. Like Massa in Malaysia or Alonso in Bahrain.

steveaki13

17th April 2013, 21:46

2008 wasn't that good - he was struggling with qualifying and was "saved" by a relatively wet season, which enabled him to overcome the deficit with some good strategy and driving and score the points.

But 2007 was truly good. In my book one of the best drivers that year, along the Top3 in the championship. Often got 4th place finishes, which means he beat someone from two top teams, who happened to have a bad day there. Like Massa in Malaysia or Alonso in Bahrain.

Correct.

I just looked back after you said that and you are right 2008 was worse than I remembered. Back to the Nostalgia thread my mind was playing tricks.

truefan72

18th April 2013, 00:28

wedge

18th April 2013, 14:24

Most underrated: Prost possibly. Rarely do people rate him among the very best (like Senna, Schumacher, Clark and Fangio)

They do. The people who abhor Senna's sense of morals will put Prost ahead.

I definitely agree that what sets Prost apart from other greats are the opposition, team mates and some of the s**t he had to go through he would have had more than the 4 WDCs he had to his name.

Another driver who is very overrated is Gilles Villeneuve. Sure, he was a spectacular driver, but his speed is overrated.

He had the ability of greats to polish a turd in his "Cadillac" Ferrari's but Pironi could give Gilles a hard time, so did Schekter but Ferrari had team orders mid-1979.

He was often regarded as the "fastest" and "quickest" by his peers and we know those words are cliches. I've come across John Watson's critical remarks: unrefined and drove unnecessarily to the limit - which was how I saw Stefan Belloff and more over rated than Gilles IMO.