How good is Vettel?

[Garry Walker]

And here's Vettel's ability to stay calm and collected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTAtRTQBr4o

:laugh: :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

I will answer this thread when I have more time, but surely I will not let backstabber fans have it easy.

[faster69]

you should have seen him from singapore onwards last year. flawless. hard to make mistakes when you don't/can't push

[faster69]

I will probably watch it later, but really don't need to as those laps are planted in my mind long term.

I would say that both when under intense pressure and when he's the one applying the pressure, Alonso really shines. His mental strength in such circumstances is one of his greatest assets as a racer IMO. Overall I think there are actually former and current day racers that equal him in straight driving ability, but they lack the mental attitude that Fernando has.

IMO Alonso>Seb

If placed on the same team I think Alonso would put Seb into mental break down mode.

where do people get this stuff from LOL.

alonso is the one who cried until trulli was fired. cried at mclaren because hamilton matched him from his first race in f1, tried to blackmail ron dennis, then threw his toys out of his pram and went to a midfield team. mental strength? the same guy that flipped out at petrov for having the audacity to defend his position in abu dhabi? LOL.

vettel's just dealt with every distraction you could possibly deal with in the last three weeks and nothing phased him sunday. incredible 4th in a car completely unsuited to the shanghai circuit.

[webberf1]

faster69 Are you seriously digging so deep in this discussion that you think Alonso was in any position to make a call on the structural integrity of a part of the car he can't even see from the cockpit? If you could just hop off Vettel's jock for a second you might want to rethink your debating strategy here, you're looking more than a little odd.

[faster69]

he would have felt the lack of downforce. ferrari was ready in the pits for him.

[Whyzars]

And here's Vettel's ability to stay calm and collected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTAtRTQBr4o

:p


You could almost make a ringtone out of that soundtrack.

Most enjoyable...

[airshifter]

where do people get this stuff from LOL.

alonso is the one who cried until trulli was fired. cried at mclaren because hamilton matched him from his first race in f1, tried to blackmail ron dennis, then threw his toys out of his pram and went to a midfield team. mental strength? the same guy that flipped out at petrov for having the audacity to defend his position in abu dhabi? LOL.

vettel's just dealt with every distraction you could possibly deal with in the last three weeks and nothing phased him sunday. incredible 4th in a car completely unsuited to the shanghai circuit.

Where do we get it from? It's called an opinion. The only difference is that you seem to think all but yours are invalid.

I've never claimed Alonso hasn't done some shady stuff... he has. Vettel has as well. Who took their team mate out on track and then cried about it? And if your display of mental toughness is how tough he had to be to finish 4th... well... :laugh:

[faster69]

Where do we get it from? It's called an opinion. The only difference is that you seem to think all but yours are invalid.

I've never claimed Alonso hasn't done some shady stuff... he has. Vettel has as well. Who took their team mate out on track and then cried about it? And if your display of mental toughness is how tough he had to be to finish 4th... well... :laugh:

vettel has a problem with taking blame, but he's emotionally stunted. i wouldn't say shady. he slightly drifted onto webber at turkey 2010 and blamed webber. alonso did the same thing to kimi last year then blamed kimi. alonso has the same problem taking the blame. blamed petrov for defending his position at abu dhabi. LOL.

defying a team order isn't necessarily shady. if piquet defied his team order in singapore 2008 would that have been shady? it's disrespectful to the team, but you can't fault a guy for racing until the finish line. he would be behind in the championship right now if he listened to the team and let the number two driver take a win even though vettel was generally quicker all day.

[airshifter]

Slightly drifted into Webber? Now THAT is funny. Reality was a stupid arrogant move that took out both cars, then called Mark crazy for holding a line.

And of course, in your eyes direct and deliberate disobedience of the people that right your paychecks is just fine too. Especially if you change your stories on why you did it for a while.

[faster69]

Slightly drifted into Webber? Now THAT is funny. Reality was a stupid arrogant move that took out both cars, then called Mark crazy for holding a line.

And of course, in your eyes direct and deliberate disobedience of the people that right your paychecks is just fine too. Especially if you change your stories on why you did it for a while.

i think you're overstating how much vettel drifted into webber. i already acknowledged that vettel is emotionally stunted. like alonso he thinks he's never wrong.

vettel is the greatest driver in the world. he can disobey management because he has more power than a christian horner or helmut marko. vettel makes the rules in that team. the only person he has to listen to at the end of the day is dietrich mateschitz. a christian horner grows on trees. a vettel comes along once every 10-20 years.

[henners88]

vettel has a problem with taking blame, but he's emotionally stunted. i wouldn't say shady. he slightly drifted onto webber at turkey 2010 and blamed webber.
I agree with airshifter on this one. 'Slightly drifted' is letting him off lightly IMO. It was more a swerve that his team mate had little chance to avoid. Seb had a few of these incidents that year, most notably at the starts of races. Silverstone 2010 he got off to a bad start letting his team mate pass in to the first corner only to swerve across the front of Hamilton's wing puncturing his own rear tyre. That mistake took Seb to the back of the field and lost him any chance of victory. At Hockenheim the same year he also got off to a bad start and this time it was Alonso up the inside, to which Seb swerved in what looked like an attempt to scare Fernando in to backing out. It didn't work and Seb found himself looking to escape contact whilst putting himself further down the field.

There was a lot of talk around that time about Vettel intimidation tactics on starts and whilst overtaking but thankfully he's calmed down a tad. Tactics like that only work if drivers feel inclined to actually move out of the way. It wasn't long ago he forced Button on to the grass at the start of the Japanese GP, but due to the regulations surrounding start practices, he benefited. Had he done the same on the following lap with an overtaking car, he would likely have earned a penalty. Vettel has a few flaws when it comes to defending his position, but luckily for him he's had the car not to be in those positions very often. This season he's driven very well and is showing he has the ability to overtake cleanly and effectively.

[jens]

Okay, I moved several posts from the Chinese GP thread to here.

Regarding the "start tactics" I think Vettel had taken a few tips from his idol Schumacher, who used to block quite a lot back in the day. I remember Montoya was particularly furious. But stewards have become really strict on this matter, last year Vettel got a drive through penalty for a strong defence driving, so he has had to ease off a little bit.

Funny and subjective discussion up there about Alonso v Vettel. Obviously Alonso is older and more experienced, so he is supposed to be wiser and smarter in some ways (it would be strange if he wasn't!), but I wouldn't question mental toughness of a driver, who has twice come from behind and still delivered the WDC. Obviously neither Alonso nor Vettel likes to get beaten by their team-mates, so that's academic here.

[faster69]

montoya was always angry. came from frustration of not being good enough. always was someone else's fault. remember at imola he called schumacher blind and stupid for just maintaining his line.

and agree about vettel's mental toughness.

[henners88]

montoya was always angry. came from frustration of not being good enough. always was someone else's fault. remember at imola he called schumacher blind and stupid for just maintaining his line.
Montoya was a little emotional at the best of times but that incident was typical Schumacher. He knew JPM was along side him and chose to force him off the track. Michael was entitled to hold the line but it wasn't very gentlemanly and I thought the mickey taking from JPM was deserved.

[Lee23]

He's good but i think RedBull are also a contributing factor to his success

[henners88]

He's good but i think RedBull are also a contributing factor to his success
Are you seriously trying to suggest Vettel wouldn't beat the entire field even if he was on a pushbike?!

Lets be realistic now, Vettel could walk a lap and beat a 200mph Ferrari.

[faster69]

schumacher stuck him on the grass -- as he was entitled to do.

button did the same to vettel last year at hockenheim. there was no uproar.

montoya should have lifted because there was no room for a pass.

[henners88]

Button put Vettel off the track on a run off area which had a 50 metre allowance to the barrier and carried no disadvantage. In fact Vettel was punished in that incident for using the run off to pass. Many cars go wide there due to the nature of the corner so it's a little difficult to putting someone on the grass. A better example would be Alonso and Vettel and their incidents at monza where they both forced the other onto grass and gravel at higher speeds. Schumacher was within his rights to do what he did with Montoya, but it was still dirty. Then again Michael enjoyed his reputation with such things so that's fine. I'm not in uproar over it, just offering my opinion on an old incident.

[Ranger]

schumacher stuck him on the grass -- as he was entitled to do.

button did the same to vettel last year at hockenheim. there was no uproar.

montoya should have lifted because there was no room for a pass.

You forget that in 2004 it was probably the only overtake attempt of the race - hence the big deal about it.

[i_max2k2]

Button put Vettel off the track on a run off area which had a 50 metre allowance to the barrier and carried no disadvantage. In fact Vettel was punished in that incident for using the run off to pass. Many cars go wide there due to the nature of the corner so it's a little difficult to putting someone on the grass. A better example would be Alonso and Vettel and their incidents at monza where they both forced the other onto grass and gravel at higher speeds. Schumacher was within his rights to do what he did with Montoya, but it was still dirty. Then again Michael enjoyed his reputation with such things so that's fine. I'm not in uproar over it, just offering my opinion on an old incident.

Agreed, I remember one of his post race lines, where he said, "I'm not here to give out presents", I think a lot of people hated how he went across at the beginning of the race, but that has been happening for a quite a while I think, and now days as well, its just seems the best way to defend your pole position.

But back on the topic, I was looking forward to see Vettel's lap in China Quali, to see how much can he push a slower Red Bull and where he lands up.. but oh well.

[webberf1]

Simple answer to the thread is damn good. Perhaps not quite at Alonso's level whose experience level shines all the time now, his overall racecraft has surged through to another level the past couple of years. But I would put Vettel basically even overall with Hamilton and Raikkonen who are simply too tough to split.

[faster69]

You forget that in 2004 it was probably the only overtake attempt of the race - hence the big deal about it.

well sure it was almost impossible to pass at imola.

i don't see the big deal. there was never going to be a pass there. schumacher is entitled to take his line out of the corner, like button did to vettel last year.

[faster69]

Button put Vettel off the track on a run off area which had a 50 metre allowance to the barrier and carried no disadvantage. In fact Vettel was punished in that incident for using the run off to pass. Many cars go wide there due to the nature of the corner so it's a little difficult to putting someone on the grass. A better example would be Alonso and Vettel and their incidents at monza where they both forced the other onto grass and gravel at higher speeds. Schumacher was within his rights to do what he did with Montoya, but it was still dirty. Then again Michael enjoyed his reputation with such things so that's fine. I'm not in uproar over it, just offering my opinion on an old incident.

there was grass there and no way to pass. that's why montoya should have lifted rather than taking to the grass.

so alonso doing this to vettel (and vice versa) at one of the highest speed corners of monza is not dirty, but schumacher taking his normal line out of a slow corner where it's impossible to overtake on the outside is dirty? if anything alonso and vettel deliberately went wider than normal through the curva grande. of course that's fine. :rolleyes:

[dj_bytedisaster]

Simple answer to the thread is damn good. Perhaps not quite at Alonso's level whose experience level shines all the time now, his overall racecraft has surged through to another level the past couple of years. But I would put Vettel basically even overall with Hamilton and Raikkonen who are simply too tough to split.

Based on raw pace, Alonso surely is the best overall package of the lot. Vettel strikes me more like a driver like Prost. He gets home reliably where the car allows him to. Kimi develops into that direction as well. Lewis. like Fernando, has raw speed in abundance, but lacks patience sometimes, although he improved leaps and bounds in that area since 2011. I don't think there is really some quantifiable unit to establish an order between them. They're all bloody good. The only thing, where I'd say that Vettel has a weakness is, that he can't 'drive around' car problems like Schumacher or Alonso did. But if the car is ok, he's nigh-on unbeatable and capable of some amazing feats, like his win in the Toro Rosso 2008. On a weekend, where the team hit the sweet spot with the setup, he duly delivered.

Mediocre people like Hill and Villeneuve, who won their WDC's in the lottery would botch races in the best car of the field. Fernando, Kimi, Lewis and Seb don't or at least very rarely.

[faster69]

bad lap today from alonso in the best car. surely he had pole if he could have done a lap as good as vettel or rosberg.

vettel can't drive around a problem. he went from last to 6th to win the championship in the wet with a hole in his side pod. what are you talking about??? :confused:

what about spain 2010. front brakes had gone, nurses it home for a 3rd. gave him the championship in the end.

[dj_bytedisaster]

bad lap today from alonso in the best car. surely he had pole if he could have done a lap as good as vettel or rosberg.

vettel can't drive around a problem. he went from last to 6th to win the championship in the wet with a hole in his side pod. what are you talking about??? :confused:

what about spain 2010. front brakes had gone, nurses it home for a 3rd. gave him the championship in the end.

Bad lap? are you kidding? Nico drove the lap from heaven, Vettel a good one and Alonso drove his lap on used tires and he's third on the grid. What the **** are you on about??

[faster69]

the ferrari was the quickest car and he let a mercedes and red bull qualify in front of him.

if he didn't make two awful mistakes in his final lap he would have almost certainly been on pole.

he is a poor qualifier, but luckily he's in an era of drs so he isn't punished for it. 22 poles from 202 races. vettel has 38 poles from 105 races.

says it all really.

i think mercedes will be strong tomorrow, but the ferrari is the quickest car.

[dj_bytedisaster]

the ferrari was the quickest car and he let a mercedes and red bull qualify in front of him.


Do you drink by any chance?

[faster69]

look, the ferrari would have been on pole if alonso didn't make two big mistakes on his final run. are you arguing against this?

[dj_bytedisaster]

look, the ferrari would have been on pole if alonso didn't make two big mistakes on his final run. are you arguing against this?

Yes. The Merc at the hands of Rosberg simply was faster.

[faster69]

i think the mercedes was the second best car. great lap by rosberg to beat alonso -- who was in the faster car.

[steveaki13]

Have you met Gary Walker.

[N4D13]

Vettel strikes me more like a driver like Prost. He gets home reliably where the car allows him to.
Seriously? I've always thought of Vettel like a Senna-esque driver. He seems to be the kind of guy who can put in a scintillating lap when he needs to. He's obviously a very complete driver; he knows how to manage his tyres and all that kind of stuff, but I think that what defines him is his speed over one lap.

If I need to compare the current drivers to Prost, I think Alonso is the closest one, and even so, like we say in Spain, it's like comparing eggs and chestnuts. I don't think Alonso is as cerebral as Prost is, but they obviously have a thing for being really fast while working like a calculator. Of course, there is also Button but, quite frankly, I think he is too slow to be compared to Prost. Alonso, like Prost, don't have the raw speed the likes of Vettel and Hamilton might have, but they make/made up by being cleverer and using every little thing they could find to their advantage.

[Coulthard Fan]

Please enlighten me how Damon won his title in a lottery?!? He won by being the best driver over the course of the year the same goes for Jaques!
These two drivers are some of the best around so don't give me all that crap about luck!

It also proper annoys me how people say Lewis was lucky in 2008 no he wasn't not one bit, he passed Glock to win the title by choosing the right strategy when it started chucking it down!

Lets be honest Damon and Jaques would destroy most drivers nowadays!

[Coulthard Fan]

No world champion is mediocre!
I can't stand Schumacher but admit back In the day he could be untouchable.
Vettel is the same put him on pole and there's a massive chance by lap 3 he will be out of DRS reach!
You have to admire someone who can be that quick, sure it would be good to see him fight from the back to see some more overtakes from him to give him a proper judgement.
Overall I think the best drivers around at the moment are
Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Kimi.
Then Mark and Nico.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Please enlighten me how Damon won his title in a lottery?!? He won by being the best driver over the course of the year the same goes for Jaques!
These two drivers are some of the best around so don't give me all that crap about luck!

Both Hill and Villeneuve had utterly superior cars in 1996 and 1997 with absolutely no competition at all and they still managed to lose races to Schumacher in a Ferrari that was an absolute dog, especially in '96. Both of them did very little afterwards. Hill was brilliant in Hungary 1997 and won in Spa '98, but that was achieved by blackmail. Apart from that he was just mediocre and suffered the ultimate humiliation of being beaten by Ralf Schumacher. Jacques did even less - he was just crap after he wasn't in the best car anymore.

[Roamy]

Well I will side with Garry on these issues. Alonso is by far the best driver in F1.

[Roamy]

Well I will side with Garry on these issues. Alonso is by far the best driver in F1.

[msratings]

There is no doubt that Vettel is one of the greatest drivers in the world right now...Most of the best drivers have always had the best car so its unfair to say that he is only good because of the car he is in. Yes he makes mistakes on track and off track, but so do all drivers. No one has ever been perfect and a little bit of ruthlessness has probably helped most of the top drivers to greatness.

Bad drivers in good cars don't last long in the sport as they tend to put in very poor performances and are usually replaced quickly.

As for who is better between Alonso and Vettel....well currently I would say Vettel is in better form but I still don't think Alonso has yet to find his real best at Ferrari and when he does he could be unbeatable.

[TheFamousEccles]

Der Helmut has put the brakes on any social life Seb might have enjoyed with his peers...

Vettel does not need friends in F1 - Marko | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-does-not-need-friends-in-f1-marko/)

[henners88]

there was grass there and no way to pass. that's why montoya should have lifted rather than taking to the grass.

so alonso doing this to vettel (and vice versa) at one of the highest speed corners of monza is not dirty, but schumacher taking his normal line out of a slow corner where it's impossible to overtake on the outside is dirty? if anything alonso and vettel deliberately went wider than normal through the curva grande. of course that's fine. :rolleyes:
I was giving an example of an equally dirty/less gentlemanly manoeuvre not trying to suggest one was less so than the other. You didn't read my post properly did you?

There are plenty of examples on youtube of cars overtaking on the outside at the exit of Tosa spanning back over the years, if you can be bothered to look. There may be a racing line and preferred exit but if you know a fellow driver is between you and the edge of the track, its rather rude to push them off IMO. Anyway this has nothing to do with Vettel and feel free to agree to disagree if you wish. My opinion hasn't changed and yours probably hasn't either.

[faster69]

it's not rude to take your racing line. no-one complained when alonso took his racing line vs vettel, button vs vettel, etc.

[henners88]

I agreed to disagree, not discussing this any further.

[dj_bytedisaster]

it's not rude to take your racing line. no-one complained when alonso took his racing line vs vettel, button vs vettel, etc.

You must be a glutton for punishment :rotflmao: Coming in here as an obvious Vettel fanboi is like ordering a Serbian bean soup in a Croatian restaurant.

[henners88]

Thank goodness we have thread archive that's all I can say. All the incidents were discussed and yes people complained and defended those involved regardless. There is no obvious bias against Vettel fans here, it's all open to discussion. It's always easy to try and single yourself out as a minority if the opinion doesn't go ones way, but hopefully we are all old enough for that to be dismissed pretty easily.

[markabilly]

as I said before, Vettel has developed a style that is not all that fast, but is easy on the tires with the RB car that is obviously excellent thanks to Newey and crew. In the good ole days, not sure vettel would be where he is today.

But now, where the secret to winning is to go fast, but not too fast, he is hard to beat.

[wedge]

as I said before, Vettel has developed a style that is not all that fast, but is easy on the tires with the RB car that is obviously excellent thanks to Newey and crew. In the good ole days, not sure vettel would be where he is today.

But now, where the secret to winning is to go fast, but not too fast, he is hard to beat.

Don't agree at all. China was only last week and they were eating their tyres as well as in Australia.

I would say Alonso/Ferrari have been the ones to beat when it comes to unleashing performance out of the tyres.

[ioan]

I agreed to disagree, not discussing this any further.

You lose! :p

[faster69]

as I said before, Vettel has developed a style that is not all that fast, but is easy on the tires with the RB car that is obviously excellent thanks to Newey and crew. In the good ole days, not sure vettel would be where he is today.

But now, where the secret to winning is to go fast, but not too fast, he is hard to beat.

not fast??? 38 pole positions. did see him pull away from alonso in the intial stages??? that ferrari had the best race pace today. vettel in a lotus would have put it top 3 on the grid and won the race.

what a move on alonso at the start. pressuring alonso into a mistake then punishing him with a gutsy pass. tremendous.

[faster69]

it's not rude to take your racing line. no-one complained when alonso took his racing line vs vettel, button vs vettel, etc.

we saw countless examples today of drivers coming out of corners taking their racing line as they were entitled to do.

[henners88]

Anyone fancy it then?

[havk]

Both Hill and Villeneuve had utterly superior cars in 1996 and 1997 with absolutely no competition at all and they still managed to lose races to Schumacher in a Ferrari that was an absolute dog, especially in '96. Both of them did very little afterwards. Hill was brilliant in Hungary 1997 and won in Spa '98, but that was achieved by blackmail. Apart from that he was just mediocre and suffered the ultimate humiliation of being beaten by Ralf Schumacher. Jacques did even less - he was just crap after he wasn't in the best car anymore.

If you refer to 1998 season when Ralf Schumacher and Damon Hill were teammates, it was Hill who actually outscored Ralf in final standings 20 to 14 points. In 1997 and 1999 indeed he was behind Ralf. And about Grand Prix Belgium 1998 we will never know how it would have ended without team orders. I don't consider Hill as a super driver, decent and maybe a bit inconsistent. All in all he won 22 F1 races. Apart from that I think it should be considered that he started his motorsport and F1 career quite late.

[Mia 01]

Seb and Kimi ar the best at the current grid.

[P3ws]

Well I will side with Garry on these issues. Alonso is by far the best driver in F1.

So you both saying Alonso needs a cheating team boss to win? Or an uber car like the Renault when he got his two titles?
And on top of that, have no1 driver status in the team.

Not very impressing is it?

[dj_bytedisaster]

You should lay off the chicken, man ...

[steveaki13]

I'll give him more Kudos if he could acually type one word on what the "Content" is about.


Anyway I think its clear there are at least 5 top level drivers in F1. The fact that everyone has slightly different ideas show that the talent pool must be quite deep.

Think about the time around 2002-2003 and everyone could have said Schumi is stand out best, with Montoya & DC a way behind, and Alonso & Kimi have potential.

Now 5 drivers are almost equal at the top.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Anyway I think its clear there are at least 5 top level drivers in F1. The fact that everyone has slightly different ideas show that the talent pool must be quite deep.

Think about the time around 2002-2003 and everyone could have said Schumi is stand out best, with Montoya & DC a way behind, and Alonso & Kimi have potential.

Now 5 drivers are almost equal at the top.

Not to mention that we have a few dark horses. With Fernando, Seb, Lewis and Kimi you have 4 absolute top-notch drivers. It's been a while since we had that much top-talent on the grid. With Rosberg, Button, Webber you have GP winners, who can make the day their own if conditions fit. And then you have the likes of Hülkenberg, Perez and Grosjean, who've shown potential quite clearly. I think there is no shortage of talent on the business end of the grid.

[Majks21]

He is prety good I think even thoug I dont watch a lot of F 1