Mont Ventoux Hill Climb

[grisza]

I'm looking for information and pictures of this event from the 50's. I'd appreciate it very much if anyone could help me with that. BTW, links to websites in any language are welcome as long Google can translate them into English (and for pictures only, it doesn't matter at all).

[FAL]

Mont Ventoux features as one of the "Classic Motorsport Routes" in the book of that name by Richard Meaden, published by the AA. (has maps, photos etc.). Can be found discounted now. I'm sure there are plenty of "in car" videos on line, although probably not from the 50s.
Much as I hate to admit it, the two most iconic moments on Mont Ventoux belong to cycling, not motorsport. The tragic end of Tom Simpson and the bizarre argument between Lance Armstrong and Marco Pantani, when both were well out ahead of the rest.

[FAL]

Here's a photo from near the summit of Mont Ventoux.....

=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/montventouxl.jpg/]http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/6080/montventouxl.jpg

[grisza]

Thanks FAL for information on this book - I'll keep it in mind. But for now I managed to find what it seems to be a map of this race. Here's the picture:

http://i50.tinypic.com/296ns4p.jpg


Now I'd like to ask if someone knows where exactly were the start and finish points? I'd need to mark them on Google Maps as accurately as possible.

Also I'd like to know what was the surface of this road back in the days - was it tarmac, gravel or concrete maybe?

And one more question, at what time was the start of this event usually?

[FAL]

Some photos 1958-65:
Bedoin Sport-Auto au Ventoux - Course de Côte de 1958 à 65 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=927s01NAC9A)
(including the Cooper Car Co. transporter with their Cooper Ss - Ventoux was a round of the European Touring Car Championship)
(and, in that context, I am looking for photos of the Alan Mann Lotus Cortina there in
1965, driver Sir John Whitmore) (It was white/green stripe, not the red/gold stripe colours introduced thereafter)

Some of the action photos in the link are taken at the Chalet Reynard "Karoussel", that was later filled in. The 1958 Coupe des Alpes film, recently mentioned in another thread on here, has a shot of a Riley 1.5 taking the high line round that corner. As far as I know, in the period you are talking, the road was tarmac/concrete (built or surfaced when the summit transmitter buildings were built?).

[grisza]

Thank you FAL for posting this video. As for transmitter building, I checked French wiki and it says it was re-build in 1966. But haven't found a word about the road unfortunately.

ps.
Yeah, that Riley in Coupe des Alpes film was funny indeed :)

[FAL]

Although the ascent from Bedoin is 21Km, the (car) hillclimb (as opposed to rally stage) was shortened to, I think, 10Km by at least as early as 1965. AFAIK the lost distance was at the bottom.

[grisza]

It looks like it was actually much earlier than 1965. Here's quotation from French wiki:

De 1902 à 1936, le départ est donné à Bédoin et l'arrivée au sommet ; de 1937 à 1976, le départ se fait au fameux virage de Saint-Estève et l'arrivée au chalet Reynard, à 6 kilomètres du sommet. Enfin, depuis la restauration de la course en 1988, le tracé se déroule sur 10 kilomètres.

And here's not so good translation from Google:

From 1902 to 1936, the start is given Bédoin and finish at the top, from 1937 to 1976, the start is the famous corner of Saint-Esteve and arrival at Chalet Reynard, 6 kilometers from the summit. Finally, since the restoration of the race in 1988, the plot takes place over 10 km.

So the last time this hill climb was raced at full 21,6km route was 1936.

[FAL]

Yes, I said before 65 because I hadn't had reason to look for any earlier data.

There are a couple of photos of the Whitmore Alan Mann Lotus Cortina on the Ventoux in 65 that I have seen, one at the "Karoussel". I am looking for any others to try and lay to rest some of the incorrect information published as definitive history.
The Ventoux white/green stripe car carried the registration number BTW297B. This number was on an A frame car in 64 (which was tested at Goodwood by Jim Clark late in 64, contrary to many claims JC never drove a Mann car). Alan Mann has said the 64 cars were all disposed of prior to the 65 season. He has also said there were two or more spare unused 64 cars, with all the trick mods, that he cannot recall the fate of. He also said new red/gold stripe leaf spring cars were constructed for 65.
The leaf spring rear was only homologated in Group 2 in June 65. Ventoux was 6 June 65 and the same cars went straight to the Nurburgring 6 Hours the next weekend. The famous red/gold KPU392C is widely pictured at the Snetterton 500Km in August and a myth has built up that it was "the (only) car Whitmore won the 65 ETCC in". I have seen authoritative reports that the Ventoux car was actually KPU392C, in white/green before being painted red/gold, carrying the registration BTW297B. That seems ludicrous, not least because the KPU cars were all red from the production line (most became works rally cars).
The most logical story is that the early season 65 cars were the unused spare 64 A frame cars carrying the reg nos of the used (and disposed of) 64 cars - but I have never seen this offered as the truth, and certainly not by Mann.
The answer may well lie in photos from the Ventoux showing the slight stance/handling difference between A frame and leaf spring cars.

[D-Type]

With touring cars never put much trust in registration numbers these were swapped around willy nilly to avoid paying tax on new cars and to match the documentation associated with carnets. Likewise when cars were re-shelled they were often given a previous identity to avoid paying tax. Ownership of registration numbers didn't change as often.
Bearing that in mind let's look at your information.
If BTW297B was tested at Goodwood by Clark in 1964 the odds are that it belonged to Lotus at that time. So, if BTW297B was on an Alan Mann car in 1965 then a car must have been sold by Lotus to Alan Mann but this doesn't mean it was the same car. The Ventoux car and the Nurburgring car must be the same one as there is no logical reason for hauling one car back to Britain and shipping another out to the Nurburgring. It is easier to change number plates and even chassis tags than it is to respray a car so it is highly unlikely that a white/green car was resprayed red/gold. If a car (as opposed to a bare shell) is resprayed, a close inspection will always show traces of the original colour. What colour were the Alan Mann team cars in 1964 and what colour were their spare 1964 cars? If they were all red/gold there would be no need to respray them white/green. If the spares were white/green there would have been time over the winter to respray them red/gold before Mont Ventoux and the Nurburgring.
I don't know my way round a Cortina or Cortina Lotus maechanicals, but how easy is it to change a car from A-frame to leaf spring? Obviously easy in the workshop but presumably not feasible between Mont Ventoux and the Nurburgring.
The most likely scenario is that Whitmore drove more than one car in the ETC. And changes in car might not have matched changes in registration number or in colour.

[FAL]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, in an attempt to make it briefer, and assumed too much was known as fact.
"Carried the registration number" is the phrase I am responsible for getting widely accepted as indicating that any car so described may not be one car at all times.
These were not re-shelled in the way the earlier works "DOO" GTs were (and Escorts later) but numbers were swapped. Not tax or Ford "bean counters" in this case; more timescales and "Carnets".
As I posted, Clark drove this 64 Mann race car (never a Team Lotus car: their IDs are well known), contrary to what history previously recorded, in a test at the end of 64. If you believe Mann ("A Life of Chance" - Tony Dron) it was then disposed of.
That the same cars went from Ventoux 65 to Nurburgring is fact, as I posted.
Mann said (same book) he invented the famous red/gold scheme in 64 and it was on cars that year. No evidence it ever was (photos?) - and plenty that it wasn't.
As I posted, the Ventoux cars were not red, so no question of re-spraying. The KPU cars intended for competition came red from the production line. (At least one race KPU was white - a Team Lotus car - but that was not originally earmarked for competition build).
An A frame car could be converted to leaf spring (many were, for road or private entrant use to shift the backed-up A frame stock) but it added weight because it then retained strengthening not needed for leaf spring but added the weight of leaf springs, so no "works supported cars" were so converted. As an aside, only about 1000 leaf spring cars were built in 65 when it obtained Group One homologation (5000 in 12 months) under the new Appendix J for Jan 66.
As I posted, Whitmore did drive more than one car in the 65 ETCC. The myth is that KPU392C was used throughout.
So, any photos of Mann white/green cars in 65 ETCC and any photos of red/gold cars prior to the August Snetterton round would be useful (in the latter case there may be none).
BTW297B appeared with different identification stripes (or none) on the front valence but that is not any indication as to whether it was the same car throughout. Other details might be. Two known photos of it on Ventoux 65: at Chalet Reynard "Karoussel" and at a right hand hairpin.

[D-Type]

You're streets ahead of me here. Clearly you share my lack of faith in registration numbers. I'll have a look at my Motor Sport DVD for '64 and '65 but I expect you've already checked that.

[FAL]

For a monthly magazine that we look at now through rose tinted spectacles (mainly because of DSJ's reports - we tend to forget that it was hardgoing apart from that unless you were of Bill Boddy's era), Motor Sport has proved surprisingly useful in researching works Lotus Cortinas. It even gave the clue I had long hunted for to disprove the myth that Jim Clark's 66 RAC Rally Cortina was a new car and the first change to white/green works rally cars from red was not the 66 Coupe des Alpes. (A chance comment in John Davenport's MS report on the 66 1000 Lakes had Roger Clark in a white/green car alongside Soderstrom's red car. Fred Gallagher then found a photo in a Finnish book).

[D-Type]

Having searched the two years' worth of disc for "Cortina" and found zilch I totally agree with your assessment of Motor Sport in general.
However, in defence of WB and DSJ, remember that one or the other of them coined the phrase "Pity the poor historian"

[cvhi]

Hello I search entry list about this hillclimb, perhaps you can help me

1975 1974 1973 1972 1971 1970 1969 1968 1967 1966 1964 1962 1961 1960 1957 1956 1952 1950

Many thanks for your help

[email:28ni2khk]mlanders@orange.fr[/email:28ni2khk]