2013 Australian Grand Prix Official Thread

[jens]

So the season has begun! Tricky conditions and so congrats to all, who delivered! Especially the Red Bulls. Vettel pulled it out of the bag in the end again. On the first lap on inters he was 1s per lap faster and on slicks seemed to have more in reserve, but aborted his final run once it became clear no-one was threatening. Nice job by Webber as well.

Good to see Massa being competitive from the get-go this season. Hopefully he can remain competitive throughout the season. Interesting swing between the Mercedes drivers throughout the session, from Rosberg to Hamilton. Can it be explained with setup differences?

I think McLaren was capable of more (after all, Button was fourth in Q2), but got the strategy wrong with both cars. What a pity. Strategy and the right setup are always vital in order to deliver in slippery conditions.

Young drivers (Pérez, Vergne, I think Bottas as well?) were very eager to try out slick tyres. Didn't work out, but they will all learn with experience.. :) Like Button noticed the mistake and adjusted quickly.

[Ranger]

Predictable result.

At least Vettel will have to start the race on those extraordinary grained looking tyres. So hopefully it won't be a cake walk.

[TheFamousEccles]

Garry, I fell about the floor laughing hysterically. The Pout, far superior? Obviously, considering the result in Q3. Here's a Grip - go fetch... :rolleyes:

[truefan72]

Yes not a very good start is it. A couple of others made the same mistake (Williams with Bottas, one of the Torro Rossos?) but they should have known better.

agreed :up:
Especially Vergne who easily would have made Q3 if not of the dumb decision by the team. Look for Marko to blame the drivers and replace them soon enough.
As for Williams, I'm not sure what's going on with that team. I think they fell into the same trap as mclaren with designing a revolution of their car instead of an evolution of the rather quick 2012 model.
p16/17 behind the STR's is not where you want to be.

[jens]

As for Williams, I'm not sure what's going on with that team. I think they fell into the same trap as mclaren with designing a revolution of their car instead of an evolution of the rather quick 2012 model.


To be honest, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that McLaren and Williams can be (very?) quick, but the car may have a narrow setup window, which means they will work well only in certain conditions and circuits. Well, obviously the wet didn't suit Williams.

In addition - with 'clean sheet' designs it is always more difficult to find the right setup, especially initially and in changeable conditions. Williams admitted they were struggling with setup. They may well be more competitive in the next race weekends in the dry.

[AndyL]

so where was he today?

4th when everyone was on inters!

[truefan72]

Interesting swing between the Mercedes drivers throughout the session, from Rosberg to Hamilton. Can it be explained with setup differences?

I think you are right Jens, I did not even think of that. Could be the difference. because Rosberg's car looked unbeatable in the wets. As the conditions improved, both RBR's and Hamilton improved, while Rosberg seemed to be capped. Maybe they split the difference and set up his car that way. Now, if it rains during the race, he'll be sitting pretty.

[truefan72]

4th when everyone was on inters!

4th with drying conditions and a fresh set of inters, while others where on degrading inters

[EuroTroll]

What exactly did "seb" and mark do so special? Red Bull is a second per lap faster here than any other car, you could put Pic and Chilton in that car and they would be dominant.
Well, season pretty much over.

Come on now, Garry. It's the new season! You should change your line at least a little bit from last year. :D Why not go with "0.8 sec/lap faster" or "1.2 sec/lap faster" - just to make it more interesting for us. :D

[dj_bytedisaster]

Good to see Massa being competitive from the get-go this season. Hopefully he can remain competitive throughout the season. Interesting swing between the Mercedes drivers throughout the session, from Rosberg to Hamilton. Can it be explained with setup differences?


Toto Wolf said that the comedy softs are toast after one flying lap, so both drivers were told to run a 'semi-flying' lap followed by an all-out lap. Nico's first lap was way faster than Lewis', which mostz likely means, his tires croaked prematurely on the second lap. Seriously, the Pirelli folks are front-runners for idiot of the year. What the hell good is a tire, who goes west after 2 friggin' laps??

[Valve Bounce]

I think you are right Jens, I did not even think of that. Could be the difference. because Rosberg's car looked unbeatable in the wets. As the conditions improved, both RBR's and Hamilton improved, while Rosberg seemed to be capped. Maybe they split the difference and set up his car that way. Now, if it rains during the race, he'll be sitting pretty.

I doubt it will rain. 128 km Melbourne Radar Loop (http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR023.loop.shtml)
If anything, those isolated showers coming off the bay appear more isolated with time. It might be a totally dry,albeit very cool track surface.
I am amused that anyone would consider starting on a tyre which lasts 2 laps and which has already run two laps. I must be missing something in the past 10 months when I was out of the F1 loop altogether.

[airshifter]

Come on now, Garry. It's the new season! You should change your line at least a little bit from last year. :D Why not go with "0.8 sec/lap faster" or "1.2 sec/lap faster" - just to make it more interesting for us. :D

No, no, no. The RB is so much faster that they are easily 6 seconds quicker per lap, and Seb and Mark suck so bad they lose 5 seconds per lap. When they start losing 5.4 per lap we will call them both 6 tenths!

[edv]

Tempted to start a Donkey thread before the race even begins (for Perez' engineer)

[Tazio]

http://i.imgur.com/8ue4myu.jpg

[truefan72]

sky is reporting that Hulkenberg is out of the race...

EDIT:
they are reporting a fuel systems issue that can't be fixed. What a shame, he's my second fav driver, not to mention screwing my FGP :(

[Valve Bounce]

The sun is shining, and I am taking Benny downstairs for a walk.

[Natalie.S]

No Hulkenberg too bad
Should be a walk in the park for Red Bull

[truefan72]

clouds looking ominous

[rjbetty]

sky is reporting that Hulkenberg is out of the race...

EDIT:
they are reporting a fuel systems issue that can't be fixed. What a shame, he's my second fav driver, not to mention screwing my FGP :(

BBC Sport - Australian Grand Prix (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21812357)

*Nico Hulkenberg will not start the race because of a fuel system problem.

Oh I didn't notice you'd already said that. I'm tired... :s nore:

[steveaki13]

Shame for Hulkenberg.

21 Cars Left.

[truefan72]

BBC Sport - Australian Grand Prix (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21812357)

*Nico Hulkenberg will not start the race because of a fuel system problem.

Oh I didn't notice you'd already said that. I'm tired... :s nore:

gone are the good old days of the spare 3rd car

[pino]

So my 1st FGP driver is already out...what agreat start :p :

[Koz]

No chat for the first race?

[steveaki13]

Its Goooooooooooooooooo

[Koz]

Go Massa!

[pino]

Great start by Ferraris :D

[steveaki13]

Mark shocking start once more.

Amazing Mark must have his engine switched off at the start so he doesnt challenge Seb

[Garry Walker]

Top cars pitting after 4-5 laps? Is that the kind of "racing" what we really want to see?

[pino]

Garry go back to bed :p : ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Tires toast after less than 10 minutes of racing - this is ridiculous ...

[Koz]

Kimi is blazing!

A good pit stop, and no traffic, and we might see a win!

[Tazio]

Slash has the lead :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

That RB doesn't look as dominant anymore - good. Looks like business resumed from last year - Ferrari better in race trim, Webbo going nowhere and Mercedes chewing tires - wait, no :D Massa looks superb though :D

[Koz]

Kimi playing smart and saving his tyres.

[Koz]

Isn't it a bit too early for Fred?

[Robinho]

Is sutil genuinely in it for the win? Have ferrari made vettel pit?

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[steveaki13]

No retirements yet. amazing realiability

[Koz]

Kimi flying again! And so is Sutil!

[steveaki13]

Whoops I cursed Pastor

[AndyL]

Tires toast after less than 10 minutes of racing

mmmm toast, it is about that time isn't it

[Robinho]

Sutil keeping with Vettel and Alonso, plus still has the quicker tyre to run

[steveaki13]

Nico Out

[donKey jote]

Whoops I cursed Pastor

and nico ...

[Robinho]

My fgp team looking screwed, no hulk, no rosberg, 1 merc down, at least Sutil may be 1st merc engine

[donKey jote]

morning girlz :p

[Robinho]

Ooh, a bit of rain to spice it up

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[steveaki13]

morning girlz :p

Morning Donkey.

You've bought us some rain

[Koz]

Very slow lap from Kimi?

[donKey jote]

outta the way ham :D

[steveaki13]

Ham hasn't heard of DRS. He fights whatever

[donKey jote]

ham you donkey... you missed him :p

[steveaki13]

Nice battle at the back.

Pic +2 from Bianchi in the lead battle and 40 seconds behind Der Garde +0.5 from Chilton

[steveaki13]

Kimi is looking like he has a decent chance here and Lewis moaning on the radio to his new team

[Robinho]

If Sutil goes another 9 laps and then puts on the super sorts for the last 10 laps o reckon he could be in the frame for the top couple of steps

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[Ranger]

Brilliant race from Sutil and Raikkonen.

[donKey jote]

ham told to pick up the pace :erm: :laugh:

[dj_bytedisaster]

Looks like the Red Bovines overdid it optimizing their chariot for one-lap speed. The thing surely looks ordinary in race trim, as opposed to the Ferrari, which looks great. Great drive from Sutil, too. This drive so far has been one big demonstration to show why he deserved the second chance.

[donKey jote]

bottas costs alo a second :mad:

[donKey jote]

sutil rolls over for kimi :p

[rjbetty]

Darn it, I fell asleep. What's been going on? Sutil winning? !!!

[pino]

Go Alonso !!! :D

[donKey jote]

kimi cruising (greens even) for the win now...

[steveaki13]

Darn it, I fell asleep. What's been going on? Sutil winning? !!!

How could you fall asleep after all the build up. :rolleyes:

[Robinho]

Force India not quick on the softer rubber, I was hoping he'd be able to chase down the guys in front, not lose places from behind

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[steveaki13]

Lets hope hammy doesnt upset Slash on his way through

[rjbetty]

How could you fall asleep after all the build up. :rolleyes:

I stayed up all night... :(

[steveaki13]

Sutils tyres are shot after 4 odd laps. That is very silly. Theres no point in tyres that soft.

[donKey jote]

vergne fastest lap :laugh:

[donKey jote]

Sutils tyres are shot after 4 odd laps. That is very silly. Theres no point in tyres that soft.

kimi did alright on them ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

A great drive completely negated by that rubber joke. What a travesty...

[Robinho]

Kimi seems to be managing the gap and Alonso seems to have used the best of his newer tyres, happy for either to take this one out

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[steveaki13]

I stayed up all night... :(

Been an interesting race without being a classic.

I say this from my point of view, but most passes have been via pitstops or on fresher tyres with DRS. Not many meaningful passes.

There have been some around the rest of the non DRS section of laps.

[steveaki13]

Poor Sutil. Deserves more than that.

[donKey jote]

alo almost donkey of the race :p

[donKey jote]

kimi cool, knocks in fastest lap :up:

[Robinho]

Cool Kimi takes it, great stuff, brilliant drive

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[Koz]

Kimi! Kimi! Kimi!!!!!!!

[rjbetty]

Amazing job by Kimi and Lotus!!

[donKey jote]

at last a win without squealing like a pig on the radio :p

[pino]

Congrats ice man :up:

[ShiftingGears]

Great stuff.

[truefan72]

congrats Kimi
i'm a bit disappointed with 5th for Hamilton, the mercedes rear tire issues have not been solved, otherwise he could have 2 stopped just like kimi
his pace was good in the 2nd half of the race. but a lot of thinking to do about that heavy load pace.

I wonder where Garry Walker is and his "RBR are the best car on the grid" talk. Looks to me like the Lotus is the best with fFerrari slightly behind.
Speaking of, They botched/screwed massa out of a possible p2 position with that nonsense pit strategy
Sutil, needed to stay out longer. but he drove a valiant race.

all in all, a rather routine race though with not that much exciting stuff.
oh well, at least we only have to wait 4 days until the enxt race

[steveaki13]

Well done Kimi and Lotus.

Great drive and job by the strategy team

[donKey jote]

Speaking of, They botched/screwed massa out of a possible p2 position with that nonsense pit strategy

boohoo :bigcry:

[truefan72]

Sutils tyres are shot after 4 odd laps. That is very silly. Theres no point in tyres that soft.

to be fair kimi, hamilton and rosberg both got in a bunch of laps on used supersofts (I'm counting the qualy laps) so the issue is probably down to Force India.

[steveaki13]

congrats Kimi
i'm a bit disappointed with 5th for Hamilton, the mercedes rear tire issues have not been solved, otherwise he could have 2 stopped just like kimi
his pace was good in the 2nd half of the race. but a lot of thinking to do about that heavy load pace.

Looks to me Mercedes are about where they were last season. Fast car, poor tyre management and in that gap between front runners and midfield.



I wonder where Garry Walker is and his "RBR are the best car on the grid" talk. Looks to me like the Lotus is the best with fFerrari slightly behind.


Dont forget Webbers useless driving at the start and Seb was rubbish and about 2 seconds slower than Karthikeyan could have driven that car.

[AndyL]

Kimi and Vettel on the podium, so the announcer reminds them to watch their language this time!

From the timing it looked like Grosjean got into a bit of untidy stuff with Vergne towards the end there, I hope we get a replay of that.

[Garry Walker]

I wonder where Garry Walker is and his "RBR are the best car on the grid" talk. Looks to me like the Lotus is the best with fFerrari slightly behind.

Don't worry, I am here.

There is nothing wrong with the pace of RB - out of the two Red Bull monkeys, webber made a mess of his start (AGAIN), but showed very good pace, the other was barley adequate the whole day.
I was surprised they were a bit harder on tyres than Ferrari and Lotus, we'll see how it will be in races with more normal temperatures.

[steveaki13]

Martin Brundle getting a sneaky stand on the top step of the F1 podium at last after all these years.

[Dave B]

I like the way the drivers were reminded not to swear!

[truefan72]

Don't worry, I am here.

There is nothing wrong with the pace of RB - out of the two Red Bull monkeys, webber made a mess of his start (AGAIN), but showed very good pace, the other was barley adequate the whole day.
I was surprised they were a bit harder on tyres than Ferrari and Lotus, we'll see how it will be in races with more normal temperatures.

fair enough ;)

[truefan72]

I like the way the drivers were reminded not to swear!

didn't work

[donKey jote]

boohoo :bigcry:

massa is doing a :boohoo: in the interview too, pissed off that alo got to pit first :kiss:

[Robinho]

Who swore, I missed that, too busy typing!

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[Garry Walker]

massa is doing a :boohoo: in the interview too, pissed off that alo got to pit first :kiss:

You can understand him, Ferrari did pull a bad one on him there. Ok, Alonso was faster a bit, but Ferrari did screw Massa a bit there.

[steveaki13]

So there we go Race 1 done. 18 to go.

Kimi has set up the season nicely. Malaysia next and the normal issues of will we see the track washed away in a monsoon.

[donKey jote]

You can understand him

Sure I can. He probably thought he was joint No. 1 suddenly...

[rjbetty]

Well I'm happy that there seems to be hope that Red Bull won't have it all their way as in 2011 after all. :)

Hoping Kimbo can go all the way and prove me thoroughly wrong this year (I haven't been all that convinced about him for a long time). What price a Grosjean victory at some point too if the car continues to be that good?

[Tazio]

This race had the most leaders (7) since 1971

[janneppi]

massa is doing a :boohoo: in the interview too, pissed off that alo got to pit first :kiss:
He does have a point though, Ferrari did somewhat screw up his race.

Unless he's been told he's the No.2 driver from the start, then he should just shut up and take the money.

Nice effort from Kimi.
I think he got some help from Sutil in mid race who was holding people back a bit.

[Natalie.S]

You can understand him, Ferrari did pull a bad one on him there. Ok, Alonso was faster a bit, but Ferrari did screw Massa a bit there.
Felipe should just STFU and be thankful he still has a job

That said he did a very good job for the team today
WCC possible if he keeps it up

[donKey jote]

Unless he's been told he's the No.2 driver from the start, then he should just shut up and take the money.


Exactly. Unless he's suddenly made a quantum leap from last year to this, long faces after race 1 surely won't help his cause.

[janneppi]

Exactly. Unless he's suddenly made a quantum leap from last year to this, long faces after race 1 surely won't help his cause.
I do think that Massa improved a lot at the end of last year, he was matching Alonsos pace and was even faster at times. If the car suits him this year I think he deserves a chance.

[rjbetty]

Result at a glance: I've also added average lap gap to the winner by dividing the race gap by 58, as I thought it might be of interest.

1.Rakkonen
2.Alonso +12.451 (average of +0.215sec per lap off Kimi)
3.Vettel +22.346 (0.385sec)
4.Massa +33.577 (0.579)
5.Hamilton +45.561 (0.785)
6.Webber +46.800 (0.807)
7.Sutil +1:04.068 (1.105)
8.di Resta +1:07.449 (1.163)
9.Button +1:20.630 (1.390)
10.Grosjean +1:21.759 (1.410)
11.Perez +1:22.367 (1.425)
12.Vergne +1:22.857 (1.429)
13.Gutierrez
14.Bottas - 1 lap down, about +2.2sec per lap off
15.Bianchi - almost 2 laps down (about +3.1/3.2sec per lap off)
16.Pic
17.Chilton
18.van der Garde

[rjbetty]

These are the fastest lap standings for the race, with the gap for each driver to Kimi.

1.Raikkonen 1:29.274
2.Vergne +0.224
3.Alonso +0.286
4.Webber +0.458
5.Hamilton +0.485
6.Perez +0.652
7.Button +0.924
8.Massa +0.965
9.Grosjean +1.121
10.Vettel +1.135
11.Bianchi +1.180
12.Bottas +1.378
13.Sutil +1.436
14.Ricciardo +1.607
15.di Resta +1.620
16.Gutierrez +2.141
17.Chilton +2.936
18.Rosberg +2.985
19.Pic +2.987
20.van der Garde+3.362
21.Maldonado +3.641
22.Hulkenberg No Time



Brilliant stuff by Vergne, who finished less than 2sec behind Jenson. But most surprising of all is the driver in 11th, and the gap he has. A Marussia set a fastest lap just +0.045sec off Vettel!! Look how far he is ahead of the other 3 bottom drivers.

[Mia 01]

KIMI!! It was one of the sweatest moment for a while, this win was well deserved. The funny thing is that I was not swo nervous as Abu last year, Kimi controlled the race the last ten laps.

[steveaki13]

Bianchi appearing to be a bit of a star

[Zico]

Stayed up for Qualifying then got up early to watch the race... but that was really crap! Wish I hadn't bothered, feeling a bit disillusioned with F1 again for the first time in a few years.

I'm not sure if it was because I was tired, or from watching a low quality stream... or because I have a bee under the bonnet about the fastest car/driver combo not winning (ie Driving to delta times) turning out to be the car that is easiest on its tyres (No offence Kimi you did a great job!)... but this isn't what the pinnacle of motorsport should be about! :(

Maybe I'll snap out of it tomorow.. :/

[jens]

An interesting start to the season!

What a splendid drive by Räikkönen to win from seventh on the grid, complemented by a car, which indeed looks well after its tyres, and a great strategy! Congrats, and a surprise after the qualifying session!

Grosjean – wtf was that? He knows he is capable of much more than that. Reminds me of my previous favourite Trulli, who got lapped in that race, where Alonso got his first win. RoGro has to dig deep, study the issues, and bounce back.

Ferrari is good. Alonso got surprised by Kimi again much like Abu Dhabi last year. Tried to hunt him down, but didn't work out. Massa again had the same problem like he has often had at Ferrari. Can match Alonso for half a race, but then drops backwards. But still a decent drive and if he can perform like that consistently I won't complain he hangs onto the Ferrari drive.

RBR. They need to work on the balance across the whole race weekend, it seems. In the beginning of the stints were fast, but then seemed to have tyre wear issues. An opposite to the beginning of last year, when they struggled to heat up tyres and became fast only at the end of stints. Let's see, how and when RBR can find the right 'balance' this time.

Mercedes. Again lacks the edge in race trim. I think this race was sort of ominous of what to expect from the rest of the year. They can have a couple of races like China last year, when they find pace all race, but other than that it seems more of the same to come we saw from this team in the last three years.

Force India. Surprise of the day! It was spectacular to see Sutil back in action right at the front of the grid, sort of taking over from Hülkenberg, who also fought at the front in damp in the last race of 2012.

McLaren. What can I say? Not much. Indeed not too dissimilar to the beginning of 2004 with the difference that this time they actually have reliability.

STR. While last year Ricciardo often left a better impression, this weekend Vergne had the edge. But I don't know if performances like these convince RBR to hire any of them. Car needs to improve too.

Sauber. Considering the car isn't particularly great, I guess it was a decent mistake-free debut race by Gutiérrez. In damp qualifying I was expecting a lot from Hülkenberg, who seems to excel in those conditions, but didn't happen this time. In any case, better days will come. And Hulk is probably yet to settle in the team properly.

Williams. Maldonado carries on from where he stopped last year... A silent debut by Bottas, but compared to Maldonado was doing very fine.

Marussia & Caterham. All I can say is that Bianchi was surprisingly close to Bottas & Co. Marussia's best ever race in terms of raw pace? Even though I vaguely remember Glock mixing it with some faster cars at Singapore too.

[kfzmeister]

These are the fastest lap standings for the race, with the gap for each driver to Kimi.

1.Raikkonen 1:29.274
2.Vergne +0.224
3.Alonso +0.286
4.Webber +0.458
5.Hamilton +0.485
6.Perez +0.652
7.Button +0.924
8.Massa +0.965

This gives credence to the Alonso getting first pit over Massa argument. I actually thought in the first laps that Massa was holding up Alonso (like in 2010). I kept waiting for Smedley to give Massa the signal. :D
Obviously the strategists figured that he could leapfrog Vettel as well, which is exactly what they did. Vettel really never mounted a serious challenge from then on, so Alonso definitely had the upper hand in pace. Would Ferrari seriously have taken such a gamble by trying to leapfrog Vettel with Massa? I think not. While Alonso gapped Vettel for the remaining race, so did Vettel to Massa.

[steveaki13]

Stayed up for Qualifying then got up early to watch the race... but that was really crap! Wish I hadn't bothered, feeling a bit disillusioned with F1 again for the first time in a few years.

I'm not sure if it was because I was tired, or from watching a low quality stream... or because I have a bee under the bonnet about the fastest car/driver combo not winning (ie Driving to delta times) turning out to be the car that is easiest on its tyres (No offence Kimi you did a great job!)... but this isn't what the pinnacle of motorsport should be about! :(

Maybe I'll snap out of it tomorow.. :/

F1 was the pinnicle until 2002 and then constant tampering with the rules and trying to improve the "Show" has left F1 going in circles.

I dont think its sure if its a proper motorsport. (i.e - Fastest out and out Qualifier starts on Pole and fastest across the race distance is the winner) or whether its just a entertainment Show for the masses.

[Langdale Forest]

Interesting fact is that the top 3 positions today were also the number of championships those drivers have won.

Raikkonen 1st - 1 championhip
Alsonso 2nd - 2 championships
Vettel 3rd - 3 championships

[call_me_andrew]

An empty car pulled into Parc Fermé, and Kimi Raikkonen got out.

[keysersoze]

A big accident tomorrow during qualifying, with not enough time to make repairs, could prove disastrous for the team.

Well, it wasn't an accident, but I doubt a fuel issue on Saturday would have doomed Hulkenberg for Sunday. Too bad for Nico, as he could have gambled on tires and run up front like Sutil . . . and we all know that Sauber (at least the 2012 version) is quite kind to its tires. A missed opportunity for NH--what a shame.

[airshifter]

Overall a great race for a season opener IMO. A lot of strategy decisions as usual, but also some good side by side racing on track. I don't think I remember so many multi corner passes or attempts in Oz in recent history. Felipe really got screwed, but such is life with Ferrari. IMO stupid of them so early in the year to show bias.

I still haven't quite figured out when Perez really faded, but it seemed fairly sudden.

[gloomyDAY]

Anyone have the video of the post-race interview with Massa? I haven't seen it yet.

[zako85]

It will be a while before we see an all out racing among the fastest cars. Like the last year, teams will take some time to understand how to use the new tires more efficiently. Also, most cars probably have not been developed or tweaked to full potential. For now, we will continue seeing a lot of surprises.

[CaptainRaiden]

So happy to see one of my favorite drivers win! I really hope Kimi has a legit chance at the WDC this year. Anyway, Lotus's tyre management should be a worry for other teams, as Alonso and Seb have already pondered on. Kimi's pace on almost 6 lap older tyres was just mesmerizing! Solid drive from Alonso too.

The Red Bulls were mighty in qualifying and seem to have nailed one lap qualifying pace, while suffering in race pace with faster tyre degradation. For the sake of an interesting championship, I really hope this trend continues and Newey doesn't find an annoying quick fix to this.

Solid race by Hamilton, even though that Mercedes ate up those medium tyres rather quickly. Puzzling because Lewis was able to get the super softs to last longer at the start. His post race comments show a lot of optimism and further Mercedes updates are going to make the next couple of races very interesting. He also said their car will perform better in warmer temperatures? This I am very intrigued to see, because if anything, warmer temps will make the tyres degrade faster?

Any doubts on whether Mclaren produced a turd of a car this year, were confirmed during the race. In hindsight, Hamilton's move now almost seems like genius, leaving a sinking ship. To polish this turd, it would almost take half a season. And their last year's car has probably lost out the development race to other teams by now as well. I guess the best route would be to concentrate on next year's car like Honda did in 2008.

[wedge]

I bet McLaren wished Lewis was still driving for them...

[henners88]

I bet McLaren wished Lewis was still driving for them...
I think that's a safe bet lol.

[Natalie.S]

I bet McLaren wished Lewis was still driving for them...
I think they are glad he moved on, less drama, less foot in mouth moments and with Lewis at the wheel that McLaren would not have done significantly better.

From the looks of it Lewis can contest the best Mercedes engined car championship this year with McLaren and Force India while Ferrari, Red Bull and Lotus fight for the real Championships :D

[Tazio]

This gives credence to the Alonso getting first pit over Massa argument. I actually thought in the first laps that Massa was holding up Alonso (like in 2010). I kept waiting for Smedley to give Massa the signal. :D
Obviously the strategists figured that he could leapfrog Vettel as well, which is exactly what they did. Vettel really never mounted a serious challenge from then on, so Alonso definitely had the upper hand in pace. Would Ferrari seriously have taken such a gamble by trying to leapfrog Vettel with Massa? I think not. While Alonso gapped Vettel for the remaining race, so did Vettel to Massa. Please don't confuse this this thread with facts :dozey:

[CaptainRaiden]

I bet McLaren wished Lewis was still driving for them...

I'm sure Dennis' and Whitmarsh's comments after Lewis signed the contract with Merc last year, will come back to haunt them. People were saying Lewis was going to struggle in the midfield, but it's Mclaren who seems to have gone backwards, and by a big margin. This time last year they had the front row locked in qualifying.

I'm afraid with Jenslow's ultra grip car "development" direction, Mclaren might turn into another 08 circa Honda. It's ironic with all his "team leader" talk before this season began, Mclaren delivered a turd. Well, he now at least gets to choose who finishes 9th over 10th. :p

[CaptainRaiden]

I think they are glad he moved on, less drama, less foot in mouth moments

...less pole positions, less victories, lesser podiums, whole team now taking a leaf out of Jenson's book and complaining about no grip.


and with Lewis at the wheel that McLaren would not have done significantly better.

Any statistical data to back this claim up?


From the looks of it Lewis can contest the best Mercedes engined car championship this year with McLaren and Force India while Ferrari, Red Bull and Lotus fight for the real Championships :D

Wringing performance out of an okay car and having an outside chance at the podium is still better than duking it out for 10th with the Torro Rossos and getting beaten by both Force Indias, a customer team. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

I think they are glad he moved on, less drama, less foot in mouth moments and with Lewis at the wheel that McLaren would not have done significantly better.

From the looks of it Lewis can contest the best Mercedes engined car championship this year with McLaren and Force India while Ferrari, Red Bull and Lotus fight for the real Championships :D

Please remind me: last year which McLaren driver was fighting for race wins and the other was moaning about tyre temperatures?

Or how the 2009 season winning twice - in the dry (different to wet and often regarded as an equaliser) in a dog of a car that had no right to against the Brawns and RBR.

[Tazio]

I actually thought "The Boss" had a very good race in the sense that he drove his usual hard, late braking style yet showed me some real savvy by allowing faster cars to pass when he knew that it was only a matter of time until they did, thus scoring what was probably the max that the Merc was capable of.

[jens]

Please remind me: last year which McLaren driver was fighting for race wins and the other was moaning about tyre temperatures?

Or how the 2009 season winning twice - in the dry (different to wet and often regarded as an equaliser) in a dog of a car that had no right to against the Brawns and RBR.

In those races, where Hamilton won in 2009 (Hungary and Singapore), McLaren was hardly a dog - it was a top car. People blow things way out of proportion.

[CaptainRaiden]

In those races, where Hamilton won in 2009 (Hungary and Singapore), McLaren was hardly a dog - it was a top car. People blow things way out of proportion.

Sorry, but that car was a dog. Even Lewis' biggest haters admit this. Hamilton had two wins and 3 podiums in that car to Kovalainen's none. Heikki is considered by many to be a good driver, and he was properly thrashed by Lewis that year, unless you are one of those who believe in conspiracy theories.

[wedge]

If Button was driving would he won? Would he have been fighting for podiums in that car and bear in mind that JB was struggling at that point that year.

When Schumi won in yellow Benettons did he have the best car? When Senna won for Lotus did he have the best car? When Alonso got his first win he have the best car? Let me put it another way: why was Alonso praised last year?

Pop quiz - when was the last time did we have a SC free race at Albert Park?

[Natalie.S]

Wringing performance out of an okay car and having an outside chance at the podium is still better than duking it out for 10th with the Torro Rossos and getting beaten by both Force Indias, a customer team. :rolleyes:
Surely being best of the rest isn't what Lewis was aiming for.
Being passed around the outside by the cars that do fight for the championships this year. :D

Both Mercedes and McLaren seem to have produced mediocre cars and no Lewis Hamilton will drive them out of that slump that's why he won't be sorely missed in Woking

[Natalie.S]

In those races, where Hamilton won in 2009 (Hungary and Singapore), McLaren was hardly a dog - it was a top car. People blow things way out of proportion.
The McLaren was fine later in 2009 it had nothing to do with Lewies superior driving skills
In fact he completely messed up in Monza where he crashed out in whilst in 3rd place in almost the last lap by his own mistake

[steveaki13]

I actually thought "The Boss" had a very good race in the sense that he drove his usual hard, late braking style yet showed me some real savvy by allowing faster cars to pass when he knew that it was only a matter of time until they did, thus scoring what was probably the max that the Merc was capable of.

I think thats right. Mercedes were mighty in the damp and wet, and decent in the driver but they were definately the 4 best Car, although Hamilton I think was trying a 2 stop so was out of sink before having to pit after locking his tyre badly when Alonso passed him.
So had he pitted with the rest or managed a 2 stop like Kimi, maybe he would have finished higher, but who knows.



In those races, where Hamilton won in 2009 (Hungary and Singapore), McLaren was hardly a dog - it was a top car. People blow things way out of proportion.

I think it was in early 2009, occasionally running right at the back. Until Germany or Hungary when updates or whatever moved Mclaren towards the front.

[wedge]

The McLaren was fine later in 2009 it had nothing to do with Lewies superior driving skills
In fact he completely messed up in Monza where he crashed out in whilst in 3rd place in almost the last lap by his own mistake

Alonso was in a similar predicament in 08/09, 08 especially - Renault had a midfield car and turned it into around that was there or thereabouts fighting for podiums and even a race win.

[The Black Knight]

The McLaren was fine later in 2009 it had nothing to do with Lewies superior driving skills
In fact he completely messed up in Monza where he crashed out in whilst in 3rd place in almost the last lap by his own mistake

Yet, in Australia, first race of the season, were it not for the Lie Gate, he could have finished on the podium. I felt he was superb that year and dragged pretty much the maximum out of that car that he could.

[kfzmeister]

I actually thought "The Boss" had a very good race in the sense that he drove his usual hard, late braking style yet showed me some real savvy by allowing faster cars to pass when he knew that it was only a matter of time until they did, thus scoring what was probably the max that the Merc was capable of.

He is growing up. Bag some points instead of foolish moves like Valencia last year. :)

[kfzmeister]

Felipe really got screwed, but such is life with Ferrari. IMO stupid of them so early in the year to show bias.


Turns out that Alonso made the call to come in earlier, not the team. He was on lap 11 of expected 15. After his stop he ran a longer stint than Massa on his next set of tires.

[Tazio]

An interesting little tid bit from Formula 1® - The Official F1® Website (http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/)

Ferrari F138 - chassis hole comparison
http://www.formula1.com/wi/full/ta_article/ta_article_1045.jpghttp://www.formula1.com/photos/teams_and_drivers/technical/car_focus_7.gif


Arguably one of the most relevant technical stories in Melbourne was Ferrari's choice not to use the inlet in the F138's nose and chassis (see main drawing). The Australian track is not considered to be as aerodynamically demanding as other circuits. The inlet (see inset) they could have used is fairly large and located in the lower section of the chassis.

[Tazio]

Some info from:
https://www.facebook.com/PirelliMotorsport/app_134364560059488#!/PirelliMotorsport
BTW A good place to vent on Pirelli if you are so inclined :D

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/393606_454831241255439_722283495_n.png
http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q761/McLarenDan/601447_10151326402397060_521146210_n_zps19946cea.p ng
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/480638_454107747994455_647823654_n.png

[dj_bytedisaster]

BTW A good place to vent on Pirelli if you are so inclined :D


Vented...

[Tazio]

Here we go, have at it folks. :arrows: :cool:
Personally I've always backed Hamilton’s play on this move, and thought it would make him an all around better pilot if the car was a bit off the pace, (kind of like Fred on his second tour at Renault) which may or may not be. :bulb:


It's nice to prove people wrong, the 2008 world champion said. It has been everyone, particularly all the ex-drivers commenting that it was the worst decision ever. They said: 'He's going to finish nowhere, they're going to be nowhere.' And then they contradicted themselves, going the other way. They don't know what they're talking about. They're either this way or that, when the truth is the bit in the middle
http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/report__1812979

[CaptainRaiden]

Surely being best of the rest isn't what Lewis was aiming for.
Being passed around the outside by the cars that do fight for the championships this year. :D

I don't think it's a big secret that neither Lewis, nor Mercedes have made any claim to the WDC this year. Of course every driver wants to win, but they put forth very realistic goals before even winter testing began. A 3rd in qualifying and 5th in race is much better than I expected. Last year at Australia Rosberg finished outside the top 10, this year Lewis did much better. Surely that's an improvement, isn't it?


Both Mercedes and McLaren seem to have produced mediocre cars and no Lewis Hamilton will drive them out of that slump that's why he won't be sorely missed in Woking

You talk like a PR person from Mclaren. It's bleeding obvious that Mercedes seems to have made a step forward, whereas Mclaren has taken a quantum leap backwards in a merely a couple of months. This is the same team that won Brazil 2012 and now are struggling to get even into the top 10. Lewis displayed last year how to win in a Mclaren and get results when Button was finishing 8th or struggling to get into top 5 and complaining about grip.

[henners88]

Here we go, have at it folks.
Personally I've always backed Hamilton’s play on this move, and thought it would make him an all around better pilot if the car was a bit off the pace, (kind of like Fred on his second tour at Renault) which may or may not be.
Is there anything really controversial in any of those opinions be it Moss/Stewart or Hamilton's?
Two ex drivers say in their opinion he made a mistake. Hamilton responds with he didn't. I think even a British tabloid would have trouble stirring up hate out of that :p

[CaptainRaiden]

The McLaren was fine later in 2009 it had nothing to do with Lewies superior driving skills.

Then why couldn't Heikki do anything with that car?

In fact, while we're on that subject, how come Lewis steamrolled everyone at Canada 2012 while Jenson was trundling around outside the top 10 without any issues? Then he again won at Hungary while Button finished 6th? Lewis was again in winning positions at Singapore and Abu Dhabi before the car gave up, whereas Button was outside the top 3.

Anyway, these things have been repeated over and over for the last year or so, and won't make a difference if someone is obviously biased against a driver for whatever reason.

[EuroTroll]

Is there anything really controversial in any of those opinions be it Moss/Stewart or Hamilton's?
Two ex drivers say in their opinion he made a mistake. Hamilton responds with he didn't. I think even a British tabloid would have trouble stirring up hate out of that :p

I think the last time Stirling Moss said anything sensible was in 1976 when he complained that his pizza was too hot. He was absolutely right - it was! :p

[zako85]

Of course, as of right now I would classify Hamilton as a "better asset" for a team, between him and Button. He is younger, he is fast, he has more productive years ahead of him than Button. But Button's progress through years was hampered by the fact the he didn't get to drive truly fast cars until 2009. Sadly, we can't quite close the page on Hamilton vs Button rivalry now due to Hamilton's departure from McLaren. 2010 was Button's first year at McLaren and he did well IMO. Then in 2011 Button did very well, while Lewis was struggling. Some fans of Hamilton discounted the horrible 2011 as "one bad year". 2012 clearly showed that Button also can have a bad year.

Now they're at different teams, plus McLaren has made a mess with the 2013 car design, even the management admits that, so it will be hard to place the blame for lackluster results entirely on the driver. Hamilton and Button did complement each other very well at McLaren. It's sad that the "British super team" suddenly fell apart. What worries me, is that one or two bad years, and Button will finally decide retire as he already admitted that he doesn't plan to become "another Truli". At this point, McLaren will be back at square one, without top flight drivers or sponsors. I wonder how long McLaren will need to recover from this. I suspect they may end up becoming a 'works' team again at some point.

Of course, when a top team falters, others come to take its place. Lotus is in a perfect position to take advantage of this. I also wonder if the fall of McLaren would help the rise of Williams eventually.

[jens]

OT, but short comment regarding the 2009 McLaren season and Kovalainen comments. Grosjean finished 10th in Australia last weekend. Does it mean Lotus was only 5th best car on the grid? We always have to look at things in a wider context is all I say.

And McLaren at the end of 2009 was very good. They lacked a bit in aerodynamics (Hamilton couldn't get more than 3rd places in circuits, which demanded a lot of aero-efficiency like Suzuka), but their mechanical grip was very competitive - already in the beginning of the season, when it was held back by lack of aero.

On a circuit with big emphasis on mechanical grip - Abu Dhabi - Hamilton got pole by the margin of more than 0.6 seconds I believe. It was a massive domination. Hardly achievable in an average car. Kovalainen was nowhere, he was demoralised and on his way out of the team already. Button - mentioned a lot in this thread - would have done more in that car than Kova did.

Some of the Hamilton v Button comparisons are taken out of context. People keep talking about Canada 2012, but this is just one race. Most of the time they were fairly close, especially in 2010 and 2011. McLaren in 2013? Perhaps Hamilton could have done a bit more than Pérez or Button, but not by much. Winning a race, getting a podium? I don't think so.

[CaptainRaiden]

OT, but short comment regarding the 2009 McLaren season and Kovalainen comments. Grosjean finished 10th in Australia last weekend. Does it mean Lotus was only 5th best car on the grid? We always have to look at things in a wider context is all I say.

That's only one race being compared to two seasons, i.e. 2008 and 2009, where Heikki (regarded as a good driver by many) was thrashed by Hamilton all over the place.


And McLaren at the end of 2009 was very good. They lacked a bit in aerodynamics (Hamilton couldn't get more than 3rd places in circuits, which demanded a lot of aero-efficiency like Suzuka), but their mechanical grip was very competitive - already in the beginning of the season, when it was held back by lack of aero.

Still not a top car by any stretch, and many argued was still lagging behind the Red Bulls and Brawn. 2 wins and 3 podiums in that car while Heikki hardly got a sniff of top 5 was pretty good IMO. I don't know why some people want to downplay that. Same people went gaga over Alonso's work in the Renault that year.


On a circuit with big emphasis on mechanical grip - Abu Dhabi - Hamilton got pole by the margin of more than 0.6 seconds I believe. It was a massive domination. Hardly achievable in an average car. Kovalainen was nowhere, he was demoralised and on his way out of the team already. Button - mentioned a lot in this thread - would have done more in that car than Kova did.

Was Button demoralized last year and on his way out of the team? How come Hamilton was able to get "grip", wins and podium while Button was finishing outside the top 5 at best?


Some of the Hamilton v Button comparisons are taken out of context. People keep talking about Canada 2012, but this is just one race. Most of the time they were fairly close, especially in 2010 and 2011.

No, they weren't. Except 2011, Lewis has gotten the better of Button, especially in 2012. Canada 2012 is just one example. Hungary 2012 Lewis won, Button finished 6th. Monza 2012 Lewis won and Button retired from outside the top 4 IIRC. Singapore Lewis was winning comfortably until the car failure, and Button was over 10 seconds adrift in 3rd. Abu Dhabi Lewis was winning comfortably again and Button was 5th. USA Lewis won by overtaking Vettel, while Button finished 5th, a full minute behind, struggling. Brazil Lewis was winning until Hulkenberg had a brain fart.

There were races in 2011 where Lewis was steamrolling the opposition and Button was outside the top 10, Nurburgring for example. Whenever Button won, Lewis was close by or had an accident. 2011 was pretty much the worst year for Lewis, and Button scored points more consistently, yes, but Lewis still got more victories.


McLaren in 2013? Perhaps Hamilton could have done a bit more than Pérez or Button, but not by much. Winning a race, getting a podium? I don't think so.

Nobody is implying that. But judging by most of 2012, where Lewis was in the top 3 and Button outside the top 8, one could hazard a guess that Lewis could have dragged this year's Mclaren into top 5 at least? But all that is supposition at this point.

[truefan72]

Then why couldn't Heikki do anything with that car?

In fact, while we're on that subject, how come Lewis steamrolled everyone at Canada 2012 while Jenson was trundling around outside the top 10 without any issues? Then he again won at Hungary while Button finished 6th? Lewis was again in winning positions at Singapore and Abu Dhabi before the car gave up, whereas Button was outside the top 3.

Anyway, these things have been repeated over and over for the last year or so, and won't make a difference if someone is obviously biased against a driver for whatever reason.

you forgot Brazil too, where he was probably going either win or finish 2nd

[airshifter]

Then why couldn't Heikki do anything with that car?

In fact, while we're on that subject, how come Lewis steamrolled everyone at Canada 2012 while Jenson was trundling around outside the top 10 without any issues? Then he again won at Hungary while Button finished 6th? Lewis was again in winning positions at Singapore and Abu Dhabi before the car gave up, whereas Button was outside the top 3.

Anyway, these things have been repeated over and over for the last year or so, and won't make a difference if someone is obviously biased against a driver for whatever reason.

Heikki hasn't managed to get performance out of any car really. I don't know who the people that rate him are, but personally I'm surprised he is still in F1. I'm sure he is a much better driver than any of us on the forum, but not that great in comparison to the rest of the F1 field.

I think it is much too early to draw any conclusions on how good the cars are after a single race, regardless of which car we are talking about. With Nico retiring we really don't know how the race would have played out for Mercedes, so that comparison is really void IMO.

I think Lewis is among the most talented drivers in the field, but can also accept that sometimes he is his own worst enemy. From the perspective of someone who is really not a biased fanboy of any particular driver, it would seem to me you are wasting time trying to convince the Lewis haters of his skills, while in fact you overlook when he doesn't perform well. Just my .02 cents.

[henners88]

From the perspective of someone who is really not a biased fanboy of any particular driver, it would seem to me you are wasting time trying to convince the Lewis haters of his skills, while in fact you overlook when he doesn't perform well. Just my .02 cents.
I think that is part and parcel of being a fan. You see the positives in any situation regarding the team or driver you support. Sometimes the negatives aren't as easy to spot but thats what its all about. Thankfully for Hamilton fans, Lewis hasn't had a bad race for quite some considerable time and its a sign he has matured as a driver over the past couple of years.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think Lewis is among the most talented drivers in the field, but can also accept that sometimes he is his own worst enemy. From the perspective of someone who is really not a biased fanboy of any particular driver, it would seem to me you are wasting time trying to convince the Lewis haters of his skills, while in fact you overlook when he doesn't perform well. Just my .02 cents.

I have time and again accepted the fact on this forum that 2011 was Lewis' worst season, and almost all of it was because of his brain farts, and some because of circumstances outside his control. I have also criticized his whining twitter drama with Button end of last year. In fact, attitude wise I much prefer Kimi's "don't care" attitude to Lewis wearing his emotions on his sleeve. But as a driver, I rate Lewis higher than others, even Alonso thinks so in their ongoing mutual Bromance over the last two years. :D

[The Black Knight]

One of the things that surprised me about the qualifying was the difference between Rosberg and Hamilton in the wet vs Rosberg and Hamilton in the dry. It seemed in the wet that Nico could drag more performance out of the car but as soon as it was dry Hamilton came to the fro. I'm not sure is this because Hamilton just grew as the weekend progressed or if there is a gulf in class in the dry vs the wet. It'll be an interesting one to watch over the course of the season as I don't think there will be a 0.5 second gap between them every race weekend.

[CaptainRaiden]

One of the things that surprised me about the qualifying was the difference between Rosberg and Hamilton in the wet vs Rosberg and Hamilton in the dry. It seemed in the wet that Nico could drag more performance out of the car but as soon as it was dry Hamilton came to the fro. I'm not sure is this because Hamilton just grew as the weekend progressed or if there is a gulf in class in the dry vs the wet. It'll be an interesting one to watch over the course of the season as I don't think there will be a 0.5 second gap between them every race weekend.

I assumed it was because Nico's car was set up for wet and Lewis' for the dry. Nico has never shown real wet weather prowess, so him being so much faster than Lewis was a surprise. But of course I could be completely wrong. I haven't seen any interviews indicating any such thing.

[wedge]

Some of the Hamilton v Button comparisons are taken out of context. People keep talking about Canada 2012, but this is just one race. Most of the time they were fairly close, especially in 2010 and 2011. McLaren in 2013? Perhaps Hamilton could have done a bit more than Pérez or Button, but not by much. Winning a race, getting a podium? I don't think so.

Latter part of 2010 Button tailed off and Hamilton extracted the maximum.

2011 - pressed the self destruct button

2012 - Spain he had provisional pole but then penalised to back of grid and still beated Button; Bahrain he was ahead of Button but had crap pit stops; Valencia he was ahead of Button before he tangled with Maldonado; Singapore he was ahead of Button before he retired and same in Abu Dhabi.

[henners88]

I assumed it was because Nico's car was set up for wet and Lewis' for the dry. Nico has never shown real wet weather prowess, so him being so much faster than Lewis was a surprise. But of course I could be completely wrong. I haven't seen any interviews indicating any such thing.
I had seen that suggested but there is no official statement backing it up. It could be of course that Nico had a set-up in quali/practise that he got on with and Lewis was still finding the balance. Neither driver have identical preferences so its always trial and error in certain situations. Lets not forget Nico has worked with this team for a little while longer than Lewis and the engineers are still learning about what Lewis prefers. Not that its an excuse but a possible answer? I noticed Hamilton struggled under breaking in the wet rather with corner exits being an issue. The painted black lines didn't help his spin in quali but he wasn't the only driver to suffer from that. :)

[henners88]

2012 - Spain he had provisional pole but then penalised to back of grid and still beated Button; Bahrain he was ahead of Button but had crap pit stops; Valencia he was ahead of Button before he tangled with Maldonado; Singapore he was ahead of Button before he retired and same in Abu Dhabi.
I think had Hamilton kept his head in 2011 and not experienced even a quarter of the bad luck/team mistakes he had in 2012, we wouldn't be talking about how close those two were. The points difference at the end of last season was hardly representative of the performance between the two drivers IMO. Jenson beat Lewis fair and square in 2011 but finishing ahead on points across the 3 years was more down to luck than out driving his team mate on a consistent basis. Still points over 3 season's mean nothing when championship position is what they are driving to achieve. Lewis finished their time together beating his team mate 2 out of 3 season's and that's all that matters to me at least. :)

[AndyL]

I think had Hamilton kept his head in 2011 and not experienced even a quarter of the bad luck/team mistakes he had in 2012, we wouldn't be talking about how close those two were

If.

[henners88]

If.
Thats my point. You can apply 'if' to either side but it still gives the same answer.

[AndyL]

Thats my point. You can apply 'if' to either side but it still gives the same answer.

It always gives the same answer. If <insert name of driver here> had better luck on the occasions when he had bad luck, and did a better job on the occasions when he didn't do a very good job, then his results would have been considerably more impressive.

[henners88]

It always gives the same answer. If <insert name of driver here> had better luck on the occasions when he had bad luck, and did a better job on the occasions when he didn't do a very good job, then his results would have been considerably more impressive.
Yeah exactly. Are we in agreement here then Andy or what?
I'm happy that Lewis beat Jenson over the three years with good or bad luck, it makes little difference. Jenson generally struggles more than Lewis by self admission, so I think the time period tells a fair tale results wise, but both drivers suffered from bad luck. jenson's bad luck related more to not understanding the car for much of the time with less mechanical failures and team errors hindering him. Lewis made more mistakes during one of the seasons and had very poor luck regarding reliability and team errors in his final season. Had both had good luck 95% of the time I believe there would have been a bigger gap between them results wise with many of us crediting the partnership as closer than we expected in any case.

[AndyL]

Yeah exactly. Are we in agreement here then Andy or what?

I don't know :)
I thought you were using the "if" argument to make out your case that the points difference was not representative of Hamilton's superiority over Button.

[henners88]

I don't know :)
I thought you were using the "if" argument to make out your case that the points difference was not representative of Hamilton's superiority over Button.
I don't know about superiority but it doesn't show the true difference we saw in 2012 when Hamilton retired from the lead twice and lost out a lot through pit stops and poor strategy. You could say the same in Button's favour for 2011 but I don't believe the issue for Lewis that year was down to him not knowing how to race. I think he frustrated himself and lost far too many points that year through arrogance and silly on track battles. Thats where Button holds the strength over Hamilton, keeping cool in situations that demand a level head. Saying that Lewis seemed a different person in 2012 and seemed back to his old self.

If you think the points tally is a fair representation of their talent during their time together, how do you weigh up unreliability and bad luck for both? Do you think they both experienced the same level of bad luck and indeed it leveled itself out? Its a common discussion this and its always interesting to see how different people view the situation. :)

[AndyL]

If you think the points tally is a fair representation of their talent during their time together, how do you weigh up unreliability and bad luck for both? Do you think they both experienced the same level of bad luck and indeed it leveled itself out? Its a common discussion this and its always interesting to see how different people view the situation. :)

Well I wasn't really commenting on whether your thesis was correct or not (whether the points tally was a fair or unfair representation), just that you seemed to be using a specious argument to support it. The invalidity of the argument doesn't necessarily make the proposition false, just unproven.

But to answer your question, frankly I try to avoid weighing up bad luck! It's tremendously difficult to do objectively. If you work from memory or general impressions, it's inevitable that you'll remember more of the injustices suffered by a driver that you sympathise with. Even if you try to do some sort of historical analysis, you still have to make subjective judgments about what constitutes a misfortune. Was that slow pit stop the team's fault, or did the driver miss their marks? Whose fault was a particular collision? Did the driver contribute in some way to a mechanical failure? Did the team make a bad strategy call, or was it the driver's fault for burning out his tyres too fast? Did the driver get lucky with the safety car, or was it astute strategy? People will have differing opinions on most incidents. And what other small but crucial piece of bad luck might we never have even heard about?

I would say that 3 years is probably enough time for luck to even out, and I don't think either McLaren driver was systematically favoured by the team, so the points tally has to be a fair reflection of their respective abilities to score points. To say whether it's a fair reflection of their talent, I think would require a clearer definition of talent ;)

You can pick all sorts of measures of success. On total points, it's as close to level as you're ever likely to see. Hamilton had more wins, Button more podiums. Hamilton finished ahead in the championship 2 seasons to 1; but on finishing positions Button did better with 5th-2nd-5th versus 4th-5th-4th. Hamilton had a clear edge in qualifying. Putting all those together, I can't really see any objective basis for assessing them anything other than either pretty much equal, or Hamilton ahead by the narrowest of margins (mainly depending on how important you consider qualifying as an end in itself).

Beyond that the debate becomes less about which driver is better, and more about which one you like more. Which is fine, as long as everyone understands that's what the discussion is about :)

[AndyL]

That post was much too long. I'll try to keep them more like post #407 in future :)

[CaptainRaiden]

Well I wasn't really commenting on whether your thesis was correct or not (whether the points tally was a fair or unfair representation), just that you seemed to be using a specious argument to support it. The invalidity of the argument doesn't necessarily make the proposition false, just unproven.

But to answer your question, frankly I try to avoid weighing up bad luck! It's tremendously difficult to do objectively. If you work from memory or general impressions, it's inevitable that you'll remember more of the injustices suffered by a driver that you sympathise with. Even if you try to do some sort of historical analysis, you still have to make subjective judgments about what constitutes a misfortune. Was that slow pit stop the team's fault, or did the driver miss their marks? Whose fault was a particular collision? Did the driver contribute in some way to a mechanical failure? Did the team make a bad strategy call, or was it the driver's fault for burning out his tyres too fast? Did the driver get lucky with the safety car, or was it astute strategy? People will have differing opinions on most incidents. And what other small but crucial piece of bad luck might we never have even heard about?

I would say that 3 years is probably enough time for luck to even out, and I don't think either McLaren driver was systematically favoured by the team, so the points tally has to be a fair reflection of their respective abilities to score points. To say whether it's a fair reflection of their talent, I think would require a clearer definition of talent ;)

You can pick all sorts of measures of success. On total points, it's as close to level as you're ever likely to see. Hamilton had more wins, Button more podiums. Hamilton finished ahead in the championship 2 seasons to 1; but on finishing positions Button did better with 5th-2nd-5th versus 4th-5th-4th. Hamilton had a clear edge in qualifying. Putting all those together, I can't really see any objective basis for assessing them anything other than either pretty much equal, or Hamilton ahead by the narrowest of margins (mainly depending on how important you consider qualifying as an end in itself).

Beyond that the debate becomes less about which driver is better, and more about which one you like more. Which is fine, as long as everyone understands that's what the discussion is about :)

You really, really like Button, don't you? :p :D

[henners88]

Well I wasn't really commenting on whether your thesis was correct or not (whether the points tally was a fair or unfair representation), just that you seemed to be using a specious argument to support it. The invalidity of the argument doesn't necessarily make the proposition false, just unproven.

But to answer your question, frankly I try to avoid weighing up bad luck! It's tremendously difficult to do objectively. If you work from memory or general impressions, it's inevitable that you'll remember more of the injustices suffered by a driver that you sympathise with.
A good response Andy, took me a while to read on my phone though lol.
I agree if you are a fan of one over the other you are always going to sympathise with your favoured driver. Saying that my opinion on that period remains unchanged as I don't feel I need to be convinced otherwise. I'm happy Lewis walked away on top and has now started a fresh challenge at Mercedes. The comparison between the two British drivers is more difficult now as they are in different cars, but I never used to focus too much on comparing these two. It seems Button has a fresh challenge of his own in the form of a new team mate, a team that is losing its Mercedes engines sooner rather than later, and a car that has started the season not being quite as good as they expected. Both Brits have challenges ahead of them and it'll be interesting to watch regardless of which one you support :)