F1 moments you feel have tainted the sport the most!

[Coulthard Fan]

1. Crashgate I still can't believe this happened and all this rubbish about Alonso not nothing about if makes me feel even more sick. It was clear he knew what was going on.

2. Schumachers Cheating in the 90s/early2000s Crashing into Damon hill in Australlia on purpose which many people believe, Jaques V crash in 1997 should have got a life ban for that no different to crashgate someone could have got seriously hurt, the Benetton car from 95 having electronic aids even though they were banned, are just some reasons why I can't stand the fella!
In a way he is like Lance Armstrong he will do anything to win even if its dangerous!

3. Bernie E! The bloke is a complete moron they way he has treated Silverstone is discusting. The country of his birth and he treats the British Grand Prix like it dosn't even matter. Dont even get me started on Spa or Montreal!
The fact he would rather see processional races on tracks designed by that melt tilke rather then exciting races that keep you on the edge of your seat, just proves all he cares about is the money and not the fans!

[Mintexmemory]

Wooooooo couldn't you just open one can of worms at a time!!
Once the FIA had allowed the Senna - Prost tit for tat malarky without season-long bans they were powerless to stop an idiot chosing to drive into the opponents for competitive advantage. Jean Marie Balestre deserves all the credit for creating the monster MS

[Natalie.S]

#1 Simples that's Spygate!
Mclaren got off lightly with 100 million fine
They should have been banned for 07 & 08

#2 the orchestrated lying by Lewis Hamilton and Mclaren after the 2009 Aussie GP
Positive side effect was that Ron Dennis was run out of the sport

#3 Crashgate
Positive side effect was that Flavio Briatore was run out of the sport

[henners88]

Hmmm a can of worms no doubt but I'll share my opinion :)
The ones that stick in my mind are:

1. FISA manipulating the rules in the 1990 season finale between Senna and Prost. It really made a mockery of the whole sport and showed a driver could win through who he knew rather than what he did on track.

2. Schumacher using his car to win the 1994 championship after an error had taken him out of the race. A rather unsavoury end even if Schumacher deserved the championship up until the final race IMHO. I could add Jerez 1997 and Monaco 2006 to this category too. He still retired as a great though but he could have been the greatest ever.

3. Spygate 2007 was a huge scandal. Alonso, De La Rosa, Coughlan and several other McLaren engineers attempted to pull of one of the biggest cheats in the sports history, if not the biggest. How the team and drivers got off without long term bans I will never know. McLaren would have been sensible to sack all those involved with immediate effect IMO but got off rather lightly with a fine.

4. Crashgate 2008 was stupidity on a grand scale. I think more people knew about it than was ever revealed but it exposed fixing can come to any sport. The FIA acted correctly with banning certain members but could have gone a lot deeper.


The sport is selling out and is getting greedier and greedier. Who knows what its popularity will like in future generations? I think more things will continue to taint the sport but one day I hope they realise the fans watching is what keeps it in the public domain.

[Tazio]

Changing the point scoring, specifically but not exclusively raising first place points higher than 10. Nothing IMO taints F1 more than self inflicted wounds by its establishment.

[Big Ben]

The moment DRS became official.

IMO all the gates mentioned above tainted the people involved not the sport.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Knock-on]

I suppose it depends on what we mean by tainted and if we equat tainted with 'damaged'.

I don't think anythng has really damaged the sport as controversy usually ends up in increased interest from the viewing public.

The things that have been detrimental in my opinion are periods of domination such as the Schumacher era and the current Red Bull reign. Lets hope they are defeated this year for the good of the sport.

If we look at the major controversies of the sport, we are probably talking about the shocking cheating by Balestere against Senna, the subsequent tete-a-tete between Senna and Prost, the endemic cheating at Benetton and Ferrari, especially on the electronics front, during the Schumacher era which, if the FIA weren't complicite in, were guilty of overlooking. Crashgate was shocking and Alonso's bribery and McLarens serious failings that lead to Spygate were unforgivable. However, Max's zealous persecution of Ron and McLaren was also damaging for the sport and it must be mentioned that the only way McLaren knew Ferrari were cheating and the FIA were ignoring it ws because of the dossier.

We also need to look at why Renault were swept under the carpet in a similar Spygate case and Schumacher at Monaco parking out on track, the role of the FIA in America during the Tyre crisis and suggestions of Champion rigging from Bernie and others and a host of other things.

What a murkey old world F1 is but apart from the 2005 US GP, did any of them really harm the sport? Probably not and not more than periods of domination. Food for thought.

[Coulthard Fan]

I was just about to say Spygate wasn't just Mclarens fault! Ferrari were just as much involved and I seem to remember a Ferrari team member going to Prison.

[rjbetty]

2003 Brazilian Grand Prix - Fisichella not being allowed to celebrate his maiden win. This caused my love for F1 to die inside. I personally also think it affected Fisi and he was never the same since. It would have been preferable for him never to win a race. What did he do to deserve that? It wasn't that they took his win away, but that they gave it back to him, when it was too late and the moment had gone.

It might sound like rubbish, but being able to celebrate your first victory is all-important. With the 2nd and 3rd it's not the same. You NEED to celebrate that first one properly. This moment killed my passion for the sport and it never recovered - I can only imagine (actually it's obvious) what it did to Fisi inside. That and getting into a drive he deserved far too late was what undid him - and also the Renault Flav politics and simply Alonso's much-increased performance for 2005-6.



I don't think DRS is fake: I don't see how it's any different than cars just being able to slipstream as they used to. For too long it's been artificially hard to slipstream - DRS just resets the balance. Would we be complaining it's fake and too easy if cars could just slipstream naturally as they used to? Cars could still drive past on a straight in the old less aerodynamic days.

I'm really disappointed with Bernie. While Frank Williams seems to be softening as his age advances, it seems that since Bernie was attacked the other year, I think he's realised he doesn't have an abundance of years left. Also, there's the looming German case. It looks like he's maybe just spending his remaining days screwing as much money out of the sport as he can while he's still in charge. He increasingly seems to not care what state he leaves the sport in for after his time. I feel sorry for him...

[steveaki13]

Changing the point scoring, specifically but not exclusively raising first place points higher than 10. Nothing IMO taints F1 more than self inflicted wounds by its establishment.

I feel its done that too, but maybe in two ways.

Firstly like you say it hasn't changed anything percentage wise really from the 10-8-6 and in fact 10-6-4 was probably more fair to the winner, but secondly it blurs records for points scored way back to the beginning, I know its not about comparisons but I still think it effects the historical view of the sport.


The moment DRS became official.

IMO all the gates mentioned above tainted the people involved not the sport.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Dont start me on DRS. :hot:

On the other thing I agree. Really if you think back to "CrashGate" you tend to think of Flavio or Pat and shake your head, but you do not really think of F1 and despair.

[steveaki13]

One thing that taints the sport sadly are the deaths in F1.

When deaths occur people question F1 and whether its too dangerous and hurts F1 for a time, however from that F1 grows and evolves to improve safety and comes out of the darkness stronger, while remembering those heros who have perished.

[Koz]

Michael Schumacher's chopping of DH and JV.

Flavio.

Max Mosley.

Spygate.
Crashgate.
Liargate.

The selection/blackmail of the new F1 teams.

The amount of pay drivers in F1 and the many drivers deserving a seat sitting out.

DRS.

HRT. USGP.

[rjbetty]

Didn't Lewis admit he lied though? Didn't he reaslise he'd done the wrong thing and told the truth to make amends. I think he was pressured into lying. He couldn't live with it so went back and told the truth.

So he did the right thing. We've all done things wrong, especially when others have pressures/bullied us. But he went to make amends? Isn't that how it went?

I think Lewis haters (people bitter that he outperformed Alonso - as a rookie!!!) jump on this and make him out to be an evil person.

Fernando Alonso knows a thing or two about lying, especially in the press conference after Hockenheim 2010! Not to mention crashgate probably.

[Koz]

I didn't mention Lewis specifically, did I?

I just feel that it was one of the moments tainted the sport.
Nor do I think Lewis is an evil person, an idiot sometimes, but in no way a bad guy.

However, I will add Piquet, Jr. did taint the sport, whether coerced by Flavio or not. He should have received a ban like Flavio.

I agree about Alonso, I am amazed that people forget about his involvement in Crashgate and most certainly Spygate. Teflonso...

[Natalie.S]

However, I will add Piquet, Jr. did taint the sport, whether coerced by Flavio or not. He should have received a ban like Flavio.

I agree about Alonso, I am amazed that people forget about his involvement in Crashgate and most certainly Spygate. Teflonso...
It seems some here seem fail to understand the concept of immunity.

Without Fernando whistle-blowing on the McLaren cheaters it would have been nigh impossible for FIA to convict the cheaters at McLaren as the first WMSC hearing proved.

Without Nelsinho's testimony it would have been impossible to nail Briatore and Symonds.
Also he confirmed that Alonso was not complicit to Crashgate.

[rjbetty]

I didn't mention Lewis specifically, did I?

I just feel that it was one of the moments tainted the sport.
Nor do I think Lewis is an evil person, an idiot sometimes, but in no way a bad guy.

However, I will add Piquet, Jr. did taint the sport, whether coerced by Flavio or not. He should have received a ban like Flavio.

I agree about Alonso, I am amazed that people forget about his involvement in Crashgate and most certainly Spygate. Teflonso...

It's alright Koz, I didn't mean you specifically either. ;)
I had in mind a lot of fans in general and just stuff I've read when I said that. :)

[wedge]

Some punishments never fitted the crime.

Schumi should have been, at the very least, banned for a few races at the start of the 2000 season and not a slap on the wrist ie. disqualified from 1999 WDC.

Considering that McLaren were able to fight for 2007 WDC then it is only right that as a compromise that they should not be able to score points in 2008 WCC. In 2008 McLaren were supposed to be garaging with the tail-enders but Bernie caved in and moved them admist the midfield to make it a bit more appealing to the prawn sarnie brigade.


the endemic cheating at Benetton and Ferrari, especially on the electronics front, during the Schumacher era which, if the FIA weren't complicite in, were guilty of overlooking

I personally don't prescribe to that theory.

Benetton were cleared in 1994 of using TC despite a feud that turned into a witchhunt between Max Mosley and Flavio Briatore/Benetton.

It's been said that every car is illegal - the authorities don't know where to find it after all the team's are always looking to keep a step ahead of those of police the rules.

I would argue that electronics and software management (or whatever the correct term is) tainted the sport in the 1990s. It's a complex piece of kit which in practice is very tough to police. For instance the most common assertion of utilising TC came from fuel management. It got to the point in the late 90s that it was an open secret that pretty much every car had TC of some form which is why TC became legal because the FIA admitted defeat.

[Koz]

It seems some here seem fail to understand the concept of immunity.

Without Fernando whistle-blowing on the McLaren cheaters it would have been nigh impossible for FIA to convict the cheaters at McLaren as the first WMSC hearing proved.

Without Nelsinho's testimony it would have been impossible to nail Briatore and Symonds.
Also he confirmed that Alonso was not complicit to Crashgate.

Keep in mind that in both these cases, the guys came forward after blackmailing Ron and Flavio didn't work. If Alonso had #1 status at McLaren, or had Junior kept his drive at Renault, do you think we would have heard from them?

[henners88]

Keep in mind that in both these cases, the guys came forward after blackmailing Ron and Flavio didn't work. If Alonso had #1 status at McLaren, or had Junior kept his drive at Renault, do you think we would have heard from them?
Indeed.
I think what is key in both those cases is the fact both the whistle blowers i.e Alonso and Piquet were happy to cheat until it didn't suit their positions. Nelson approached the FIA after it seemed his career at Renault was over and Alonso didn't come forward officially at all. Ron Dennis called his bluff after an attempt from Alonso to blackmail the team backfired. Both Alonso and Piquet took to the witness stand and both affectively escaped punishment apart from a damaged public image. Its very easy to applaud these drivers for their help in convicting their employers, but both were corrupt enough to cheat in the first place. Alonso unlike Piquet has managed to recover most of his reputation and established himself as a very mature driver since however.

[N4D13]

#2 the orchestrated lying by Lewis Hamilton and Mclaren after the 2009 Aussie GP
Positive side effect was that Ron Dennis was run out of the sport
I know that this was going to come up, and I believe that the Liegate affair was just blown out of proportion. Everyone lies if it's beneficial for them - it's just that Lewis and Macca did it in a particularly dumb way. I don't think this was really so bad, and hardly everyone remembers that these days. The same can't be said for Spygate and Crashgate, though.

[Koz]

I know that this was going to come up, and I believe that the Liegate affair was just blown out of proportion. Everyone lies if it's beneficial for them - it's just that Lewis and Macca did it in a particularly dumb way. I don't think this was really so bad, and hardly everyone remembers that these days. The same can't be said for Spygate and Crashgate, though.

It hurts F1's image in that a team tried to cheat in such a moronic and public way and for a second thought they could possibly get away with it.

[N4D13]

It hurts F1's image in that a team tried to cheat in such a moronic and public way and for a second thought they could possibly get away with it.
They (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_German_Grand_Prix) often (http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/08/new-flexi-saga-questions-rubber-red-bull-front-wing/) do (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/kevingarside/2325319/Renault-face-spy-charge-after-McLaren-cry-foul.html).

[Koz]

They (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_German_Grand_Prix) often (http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/08/new-flexi-saga-questions-rubber-red-bull-front-wing/) do (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/kevingarside/2325319/Renault-face-spy-charge-after-McLaren-cry-foul.html).

1) Left hand helping the right.

2) Bending the rules. :)

3) Question for you: How much did McLaren pay??

None of that is as bad as having a public recording of you saying something, and lying to the world about it after they heard it.

[henners88]

Of course it's not lol. Crashgate and spygate were on a different scale to the rest as proved by the outcome and public condemnation. If telling lies in press conferences and interviews was worse then we'd have every driver and team principle constantly hooked up to a lie detector on the Jeremy Kyle show :p


Sent from my 

[Koz]

Of course it's not lol. Crashgate and spygate were on a different scale to the rest as proved by the outcome and public condemnation. If telling lies in press conferences and interviews was worse then we'd have every driver and team principle constantly hooked up to a lie detector on the Jeremy Kyle show :p


Sent from my 

Referring to links in post #22 not spygate and crashgate.

And wow at Jeremy Kyle.
I thought Jerry Springer was bad. :(

[henners88]

And wow at Jeremy Kyle.
I thought Jerry Springer was bad. :(
Yeah Jeremy Kyle is just hard work to watch. Chavs with no idea how to live or behave. Lying is a regular theme though just like F1 lol. :)

[Knock-on]

It seems some here seem fail to understand the concept of immunity.

Without Fernando whistle-blowing on the McLaren cheaters it would have been nigh impossible for FIA to convict the cheaters at McLaren as the first WMSC hearing proved.

Without Nelsinho's testimony it would have been impossible to nail Briatore and Symonds.
Also he confirmed that Alonso was not complicit to Crashgate.

Same ole, same ole. When will you ever change your tune :rolleyes:

[philipbain]

USGP 2005 - 6 cars starting a race is a joke, particularly when the problems were known and were caused by a re-paving of the track which was then consequently diamond ground to ensure that Indycars could drive flat out in the turns which made the surface enxtremely adbrasive. Bridgestone had a massive advantage on this one as they knew the track surface at Indy intimately as they were the sole tyre supplier to Indycar (via thier Firestone brand), whereas Michelin had made some fantastic tyres for 2005 but had mistakenly made them to run on a race track, not a surface with qualities akin to sand paper! The fact that the race organisers, the teams, the tyre suppliers, FOM and the FIA couldnt come up with a viable solution to the problem just smacks of incompetance, though Max Moseley has said since that the FIA couldnt have done anything with regards altering the track without breaking thier own practices & procedures regarding safety, so in the circumstances the teams did the only thing they could do, again, in the interests of safety and parked the cars after the parade lap. This debacle gave Ferrari thier only win of 2005 in what should have been a winless season for them, many were quick to blame the tyres but the truth of the matter is that the car was a fresh Aldo Costa led design that simply didnt work, Rory Byrne was much more involved in the 2006 car which with better Bridgestones (which they were once again allowed to change during the race) they were once again able to challenge for the championship with.

FISA vs. FOCA 1980-1982 - This wasnt just an isolated incident, more a series of battles as war raged between FISA, the sporting arm of the FIA at the time which was alligned with the non-British Manufacturer teams such as Ferrari & Alfa Romeo vs. FOCA, representing the mainly british independant teams that wanted thier share of the revenues from the sport. The first battle was fought at the 1980 Spanish GP, where FOCA teams and drivers had been fined for not attending drivers briefings at previous races and they stated if the fines were not paid that they would not be allowed to compete. After much debate the FOCA teams raced but FISA refused to sanction it and the non-FOCA teams withdrew making the 1980 Spanish GP a non-championship race (which at the time wasnt uncommon, but a race switching from a championship to a non-championship race mid-weekend was!). The next battle was FOCA creating the soft lived WFM (World Federation of Motorsport) and actually running a grand prix under the WFM banner, but lack of manufacturer presence and fan interest curtailed this and after a lot of groveling the FOCA teams were allowed to race in the FISA run F1 World Championship. 1982 was when a number of incidents happened which were to eventually end the war. First off was the 1982 South African GP where FISA introdcued a new super licence, one of th clauses of which was that the drivers were only allowed to drive for the teams to which they were contracted. The drivers felt that this was a restriction to thier freedom so to voice thier displeasure they went on strike, which was only broken when FISA agreed to drop the clause. The next battle was fought over the legality of water cooled brakes, which was essentially a device to allow teams to run under the minimum legal weight but after the race, as was practice at the time, all fluids were topped up before the car was weighed, with water cooled brakes this included filling up a water tank to bring the car up to the legal limit. Piquet won in Brazil with Rosberg 2nd, both running this spec of car, which Renault (who came 3rd) protested. At the next race, as if to prove a point, Ferrari ran a double rear wing, with each win being the maximum width but with each wing offset to either side the car if was effectively a single wing almost twice the width that the rules allowed. Villeneuve finished 3rd and was disqualified, shortly afterwards both Piquet and Rosberg were disqualified from Brazil for running underweight. This resulted in the FOCA teams boycotting the San Marino GP (though Tyrell and Toleman broke the boycott citing "sponsorship commitments") so only 13 cars started at Imola, though what happened in the race over-shadowed the boycott as Pironi beat Villeneuve to the flag against team orders. It was during this period that FOCA and FISA agreed the first Concorde Agreement which let FOCA deal with the commercial side of the sport and the FIA deal with the safety and regulations.

As for the various "gates", they are scandals but only implicated certain teams, whereas the 2 outlined above really affected the entire sport.

[N4D13]

None of that is as bad as having a public recording of you saying something, and lying to the world about it after they heard it.
Well, I guess this is a personal matter. Quite frankly, I believe that all the reaction about the Liegate affair was disproportionate, but I admit that some people might think differently. Of the previous references I made, the Renault-McLaren espionage case was way worse (IMHO), yet it was given very little attention. I believe there is a significant difference between a driver and its team lying to the stewards about an isolated incident and copying another team's designs, and I believe the latter is way worse.

That said, now I've noticed that the thread is about which moments have tainted F1 the most, while I was analyzing it from a moral standpoint. I still think that the incidents I mentioned (or linked to) in my previous post were significantly worse, yet they were given less attention than Liegate.

[In The Pits]

Schumacher for all his BS and Cheating.

The 1994 Bentton did have illegal TC and Launch control, the software deleted itself when the engine was switched off. Jos Verstappen has confirmed it. MS also had an Illegal fuel rig. Cheat.

MS crashing into Hill in Oz, cheat.

MS not properly serving a stop go penalty in Silverstone. Cheat

MS crashing into JV in 97, banned from the championship. Cheat

MS refusing to return [after he broke his leg] to help Ervine have a shot at the WDC. He was ordered to return by Luca. He said he wasn't ready, but then played football!! Twat.

MS having all team mates on a "dont beat me" contract, and having the FIA on his side, all totally unfair but then MS was swanning around like he owned the place beleiving in his own BS. Unsporting in the extreme.

MS parking at the rascasse. What a dirty scumbag.

His many records mean nothing to real Sports fans, his whole career was based on BS and unfair advantages.

My 2p.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Schumacher for all his BS and Cheating.

The 1994 Bentton did have illegal TC and Launch control, the software deleted itself when the engine was switched off. Jos Verstappen has confirmed it. MS also had an Illegal fuel rig. Cheat.

You do realize that those things were installed by the team not him, right? Unless you can prove that MS ordered Benetton to install these things, it's Benetton, who cheated, not MS and why aren't you equally unhappy with Verstappen, Lehto and Herbert, who drove the Benetton as well...


MS crashing into Hill in Oz, cheat.

Since the topic of the thread is about which moments tainted the sport most as opposed to which driver you hate most. What's your take on Senna piling into Prost at much higher speed that Schumacher hopping over Hills wheel. What's your take on Prost nerfing Senna off in Suzuka to decide the title?


MS not properly serving a stop go penalty in Silverstone. Cheat

He wasn't penalized, because the pitlane belongs to the track, crossing the finish line in the pits is every bit as good as on the sf-straight. It was a loophole in the rules and he used it, like for instance having one of your drivers take a deliberate penalty to promote the #1 driver....


MS crashing into JV in 97, banned from the championship. Cheat

see prost/Senna for at Suzuka for two years in succession. Watch a few races of the 80s especially the antics of Senna and Piquet. Schumacher is a catholic schoolgirl in comparison.


MS refusing to return [after he broke his leg] to help Ervine have a shot at the WDC. He was ordered to return by Luca. He said he wasn't ready, but then played football!! Twat.

If you spent more than three seasons on turning Ferrari from a laughing stock to a serious team, would you come back to hand the title to your mediocre team mate to reap the rewards of your work? It was Schumacher who lured Brawn and Byrne from Benetton to Ferrari, not Irvine. Unless you're Mother Theresa you wouldn't have come back either, so spare us the holier than thou attitude.


MS having all team mates on a "dont beat me" contract, and having the FIA on his side, all totally unfair but then MS was swanning around like he owned the place beleiving in his own BS. Unsporting in the extreme.

Senna had all his team mates on a slave contract, so has Alonso. Why singling out MS?


MS parking at the rascasse. What a dirty scumbag.

I think he should have gotten a medal just for being Dick Dastardly (Jeremy Clarckson)


His many records mean nothing to real Sports fans, his whole career was based on BS and unfair advantages.

We have a winner in the 'How do I make myself look like a complete Pillock' Category.


My 2p.
Aren't worth diddly squid, if your post was meant even remotely serious...

[Coulthard Fan]

Completely agree with in the pits!

DJ bytedisaster please stop brown nosing him! He's a cheat and what he did compared to Senna is disgraceful!

HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BANNED FOR LIFE!

I'm English/British and I can admit that some of our drivers are complete numpties I can't stand Mansell he takes arragance to the next level. I'm not a fan of Jenson Button either. So why can't you Germans admit that he is in the wrong sometimes!

[Coulthard Fan]

As in the pits said His career was a based on BS and unfair advantages sounds a lot like a certain Lance Armstrong

[BDunnell]

This thread would possibly be quite interesting were it not for a lot of the posts in it.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yes, as you said In The Pits/Coulthard Fan, you don't understand a thing, are completely resistant to facts and even live in the delusion that people wouldn't notice a double account. in your incarnation as 'in the pits' you have 10 posts, 8 of which are pure Schumacher bashing, whether it was related to the thread topic or not and your other incarnation isn't much better, so please don't go away angry, but go away.

[BDunnell]

I really think this thread needs to be moderated soonest.

[henners88]

How sad poorly worded opinions and over sensitivity have ruined what could have been a good thread. I think it's run it's course. :(

[steveaki13]

How sad poorly worded opinions and over sensitivity have ruined what could have been a good thread. I think it's run it's course. :(

For some reason the Like Button wouldn't work.

But sadly I agree Henners. All threads which mean vastly different views by people always seem to head the same way. :(

[ArrowsFA1]

The banning of the twin-chassis Lotus 88 in 1981.

This was an imaginative, innovative solution in a sport which, proportedly, encourages such things. Lotus, led by Colin Chapman, once again pushed the envelope and led the way. Who knows whether it would have worked effectively and competitively, but it some ways it marked the end of individualism in F1 design and ideas.

The ban has to be understood in the context of the F1 politics of the time, but even so it still is, to me at least, a watershed moment for the sport.

[steveaki13]

This was an imaginative, innovative solution in a sport which, proportedly, encourages such things. Lotus, led by Colin Chapman, once again pushed the envelope and led the way. Who knows whether it would have worked effectively and competitively, but it some ways it marked the end of individualism in F1 design and ideas.

.


It seems F1 is gradually going further down this path. Think about the 60s & 70s and the range of shapes, sizes and different ideas on F1 cars, and now how uniformed F1 is comparatively.

Even in the last few years its continued with standardised parts and freeze of engine development.

Its supposed to be dropping the cost of F1, but new teams show they can afford to enter less now than 20 years ago.

[Natalie.S]

Completely agree with in the pits!
HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BANNED FOR LIFE!

Just let the happy retired 7 time CHAMPION be, dude

7 times WDC, most wins ever, most pole positions ever, a cool billion in the bank and FIA honorary ambassador.
That combined with a happy healthy family, really it doesn't get any better than that :)

Better focus on recent moments that might have tainted the sport.
Not so much lately imo.
Maybe Bernie and his German court case but he'll probably get away with that.
Or Lewis and his stupid words and tweets but that's merely entertaining.

Nothing much has really tainted the sport as of late me thinks

[Mintexmemory]

I'm amazed Max and the alleged Nazi hookers hasn't been thrown into the ring yet (oh, apparently it has now!)

"Ja Ja Wunderbar! Now next time you whip me could you say, 'The car misfunctioned and I could not avoid hitting Hill' in your sexy deadpan german accent"

[The Black Knight]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Senna deliberately driving into the back of Prost in Japan 90 to take the championship. One of the most disgusting pieces of cheating I have ever seen. And no, it wasn't justified because of what happened the previous year or pole position being switched to the opposite side of the grid. Disgusting display of deliberate cheating.

[henners88]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Senna deliberately driving into the back of Prost in Japan 90 to take the championship. One of the most disgusting pieces of cheating I have ever seen. And no, it wasn't justified because of what happened the previous year or pole position being switched to the opposite side of the grid. Disgusting display of deliberate cheating.
I mentioned it in post #4 of this thread actually :)
It wasn't Senna's finest moment that's for sure. I was surprised to hear him admit he did it on purpose and warning Prost before the start that if he turned in he would not lift. I would have been a bit more cautious had I been Prost. I am of the opinion that sanctions should have been brought in the previous year when Prost deliberately turned in on Senna when he had the inside line of the second from last corner. The fact FISA backed Prost and effectively enforced a vague unenforced rule previously on Senna left a bitter taste in the mouths of many fans. Senna went the wrong way about proving his point in 1990 but managed to do in in spectacular style. The governing body were manipulating the rules in such an obvious fashion and it was certainly a corrupt time. I think rather than what happened on track tainting the sport it was more the politics of the day that contributed. Just my opinion though and its a subject that divides most.

[rjbetty]

I mentioned it in post #4 of this thread actually :)
It wasn't Senna's finest moment that's for sure. I was surprised to hear him admit he did it on purpose and warning Prost before the start that if he turned in he would not lift. I would have been a bit more cautious had I been Prost. I am of the opinion that sanctions should have been brought in the previous year when Prost deliberately turned in on Senna when he had the inside line of the second from last corner. The fact FISA backed Prost and effectively enforced a vague unenforced rule previously on Senna left a bitter taste in the mouths of many fans. Senna went the wrong way about proving his point in 1990 but managed to do in in spectacular style. The governing body were manipulating the rules in such an obvious fashion and it was certainly a corrupt time. I think rather than what happened on track tainting the sport it was more the politics of the day that contributed. Just my opinion though and its a subject that divides most.

I think I'd agree with this. I normally try to be at least reasonably objective (don't always succeed...), but I really do think Balestre was showing favouritism to Prost. I think the Senna disqualification at Suzuka '89 was fishy. What on earth was Senna supposed to do, considering HE had been taken off the circwuit (sic)? I think he did the safest thing possible rather than drive the wrong way to make the corner.

If it's true that pole position was changed on the day for 1990, then I would have to say it looks like favouritism. I agree that it's the politics more than the crash that causes a problem for me. I would never condone driving a rival off as he did, but I understand how Senna must have felt ganged-up on by the FIA with the lack of justice. Just IMO also. :)

But at least the 1990 crash caused Roberto Moreno and Aguri Suzuki for Larrousse to score podiums!

[Garry Walker]

3. Spygate 2007 was a huge scandal. Alonso, De La Rosa, Coughlan and several other McLaren engineers attempted to pull of one of the biggest cheats in the sports history, if not the biggest. How the team and drivers got off without long term bans I will never know. McLaren would have been sensible to sack all those involved with immediate effect IMO but got off rather lightly with a fine.

4. Crashgate 2008 was stupidity on a grand scale. I think more people knew about it than was ever revealed but it exposed fixing can come to any sport. The FIA acted correctly with banning certain members but could have gone a lot deeper.
I agree with those. The most embarrassing thing is that Alonso knew of both instances and somehow he got off free. He should have been banned for a year at least after 2007 and only someone with the IQ of fruitfly would think he didn't know what Piquet was going to do.



The moment DRS became official.
Agreed.



I'm surprised no one has mentioned Senna deliberately driving into the back of Prost in Japan 90 to take the championship. One of the most disgusting pieces of cheating I have ever seen. And no, it wasn't justified because of what happened the previous year or pole position being switched to the opposite side of the grid. Disgusting display of deliberate cheating.
Justice. Prost rammed him out in 1989 and Balestre screwed him in both 1989 and 1990. He put the end on the love affair of Prost and Balestre. Good job.

[Natalie.S]

I agree with those. The most embarrassing thing is that Alonso knew of both instances and somehow he got off free. He should have been banned for a year at least after 2007 and only someone with the IQ of fruitfly would think he didn't know what Piquet was going to do.

I think it's most embarrassing when people don't understand the concept of immunity.
Alonso's whistle-blowing and his and de la Rosa's e-mails and testimony were instrumental to prove McLaren were cheating back then.

Regarding Crashgate I only think someone with the IQ of a fruitfly would not understand that in order to find a team guilty of wrongdoing the FIA needs proof. The only substantial proof was Nelsinho's testimony in which he explicitly mentioned Alonso not being involved in the conspiracy.

Both Macca cheating and Crashgate have tainted the sport I agree but in the former he should be commended for blowing the whistle on McLaren and in the latter he was not complicit.

Simples :)

[Garry Walker]

I think it's most embarrassing when people don't understand the concept of immunity.
And even more embarrassing when people insist on posting after drinking 0,7 litres of vodka.



Alonso's whistle-blowing and his and de la Rosa's e-mails and testimony were instrumental to prove McLaren were cheating back then. Alonso was one of the main cheaters in the whole affair and had more knowledge of things than pretty much anyone in the team. His fame and status rescued him, otherwise his ass would have been grilled properly.



Regarding Crashgate I only think someone with the IQ of a fruitfly would not understand that in order to find a team guilty of wrongdoing the FIA needs proof. The only substantial proof was Nelsinho's testimony in which he explicitly mentioned Alonso not being involved in the conspiracy.
Look fruity, Alonso approached that race with a tactic that could work only 1 way - if SC appeared right after he pitted. Otherwise that strategy was going to completely ruin his race. Everyone always talked about how close Alonso worked with the team and those with good sense always are going to ask - hmm, the guy is suggested a completely stupid strategy, why would he accept.



Both Macca cheating and Crashgate have tainted the sport I agree but in the former he should be commended for blowing the whistle on McLaren and in the latter he was not complicit. Commended? I apologize for that 0,7 litre of vodka remark, it is probably more like 1,5 litres.
He was one of the main cheaters in the whole affair and there is NOTHING he should be commended about.
Alonso is true mr.teflon for getting away unhurt from 2 huge scandals.

[henners88]

Alonso was a cheater turned grass in the spygate scandal. Hardly anything to commend.

[Natalie.S]

Alonso was one of the main cheaters in the whole affair and had more knowledge of things than pretty much anyone in the team. His fame and status rescued him, otherwise his ass would have been grilled properly.
OK so we now can conclude that the concept of immunity has completely gone over your head.


Fame and status had nothing to do with it, all 3 drivers (Alonso, de la Rosa and Hamilton) received immunity.
Without their testimony (PdlR and Fred that is) and evidence the cheaters could not have been caught.
They did the sport a service as far as I'm (and FIA are) concerned, too bad Bernie saved Macca from expulsion.



Look fruity, Alonso approached that race with a tactic that could work only 1 way - if SC appeared right after he pitted. Otherwise that strategy was going to completely ruin his race. Everyone always talked about how close Alonso worked with the team and those with good sense always are going to ask - hmm, the guy is suggested a completely stupid strategy, why would he accept.
Hmm also the concept of proof seems lost on you.
Without proof people are not convicted in civilised countries.
The only proof in this matter was the testimony of Nelsinho and he explicitly testified that Alonso was not involved in the conspiracy.


Both Spygate and Crashgate did taint the sport but in the first he helped bring justice to the perpetrators and in the second he had no knowledge of the crime.
FIA officially thanked Fernando Alonso for his cooperation in both cases.
I think I'll go with the FIA rather than with some poster with a chip on his shoulder about Fred :)

[henners88]

In that case Lewis Hamilton is to be commended for cheating with his team and then complying with the FIA to get them punished. Same logic and I don't agree in either case. :s pin:

[Natalie.S]

In that case Lewis Hamilton is to be commended for cheating with his team and then complying with the FIA to get them punished. Same logic and I don't agree in either case. :s pin:
But Lewis never complied/assisted FIA.
He just lied -twice- got found out, had his humiliating press conference, was punished and later inferred to FIA officials as racists in Monaco.

However I agree that Lewis tainted the sport but his entertainment value more than compensates that :D

[Mintexmemory]

The concept of immunity..... doen't make the snitch / wrongdoer not guilty, just absolves them of comeback. Ask Werner Von Braun or any of the other morally bankrupt recipients of american protection after WW2!

[Natalie.S]

The concept of immunity..... doen't make the snitch / wrongdoer not guilty, just absolves them of comeback.
I don't dispute that, I just think that folk who think drivers who have been granted immunity by FIA should have been banned or punished are very much stupid.

Without whistle blowers no convictions.
Thank your very much Fernando Alonso and Nelsinho Piquet

[Mintexmemory]

They are saying that the FIA grant of immunity is corrupt in itself. So any immunity is founded on a fundamentally flawed process. Without wrong doers originally there is nothing to whistle blow about. Turning states evidence etc has often been used as a revenge device in the past and will be again!

Hopefully Karma will get even with Fred if nothing else does!

[Rollo]

How about when a driver states that before a race, they deliberately intend to knock someone off at the first corner; then deliberately do so and telemetry shows not even the slightest bit of backing off?

This is telling:
Driver briefing Suzuka 1990 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49qF32Pazwc)

If this had happened on a public road, a court would have imposed a fine, a driving and more than likely a gaol sentence.

Almost 25 years on, the fact that Senna was rewarded with the 1990 World Championship makes me mad.

[henners88]

They are saying that the FIA grant of immunity is corrupt in itself. So any immunity is founded on a fundamentally flawed process. Without wrong doers originally there is nothing to whistle blow about. Turning states evidence etc has often been used as a revenge device in the past and will be again!

Hopefully Karma will get even with Fred if nothing else does!
Exactly. There isn't anything 'stupid' about having that stance.

[philipbain]

The banning of the twin-chassis Lotus 88 in 1981... Who knows whether it would have worked effectively and competitively, but it some ways it marked the end of individualism in F1 design and ideas.

The car was raced in the FIA Historic F1 Championship and considering its lack of development it did show a lot of potential and apparently was quite nice to drive too!

[Garry Walker]

OK so we now can conclude that the concept of immunity has completely gone over your head.
Yeah, ...Natalie. That is exactly so. It is good luck for me and everyone else on this forum that we have someone as bright and helpful as you to help guide us miserable idiots with your amazing wisdom.



Fame and status had nothing to do with it, all 3 drivers (Alonso, de la Rosa and Hamilton) received immunity.
Hamilton, IIRC, was not even aware of what was going on, whereas Alonso and Pedro knew everything. So don't try to equal Hamilton with the other two cheats there, he was completely innocent in this one. Alonso and Pedro were aware of everything that was going on, they knew things Ron and co had no idea about.


Without their testimony (PdlR and Fred that is) and evidence the cheaters could not have been caught.The cheaters were Alonso and Pedro (and some others). Not the McLaren team as a whole or Ron Dennis.


They did the sport a service as far as I'm (and FIA are) concerned, too bad Bernie saved Macca from expulsion.LOL. Good one Tamb.
McLaren as a team did nothing wrong, it was just poor judgment from Ron that he hired a cheat like Alonso and someone like Coughlan. Thankfully he got smart quick enough and fired Alonso after only one year.




Hmm also the concept of proof seems lost on you.
Without proof people are not convicted in civilised countries.
The only proof in this matter was the testimony of Nelsinho and he explicitly testified that Alonso was not involved in the conspiracy.

I have never said there was proof of his guilt. I outlined the reasons why I think he was aware of what was going on in my previous post.



Both Spygate and Crashgate did taint the sport but in the first he helped bring justice to the perpetrators and in the second he had no knowledge of the crime.He was one of the biggest perpertrators in the first crime. Just because his status and fame and good luck rescued him from being punished does not lessen his guilt.


FIA officially thanked Fernando Alonso for his cooperation in both cases.Then there is a reason to ask why was someone who was so guilty was let away with no punishment.


I think I'll go with the FIA rather than with some poster with a chip on his shoulder about Fred :) I personally prefer to use my own head, but I guess if I had your level of intelligence I too would never have an opinion of my own.



Thank your very much Fernando Alonso and Nelsinho Piquet
Yes, thank you cheaters.
Thank you for not coming clean with the evidence at once, but rather waiting and then trying to use it to your own advantage and for revenge.
Let's not forget that the whole McLaren affair had already died down and Alonso, being his honest self, had said NOTHING to anyone. He could have alerted the World Motor Sport Council. Did he? No. Yeah, he was a saint. Then he tried to blackmail Ron into making him the nr.1 McLaren driver (slower, but nr.1..yeah, good idea), but Ron alerted Mosley. Now if Mosley hadn't been busy being punished by naughty girls, he would have insisted that Alonso and Pedro both get punishment as well, but he thought otherwise. The status and fame of Alonso rescued him.
Piquet was not exactly honest himself, only coming clean when Briatore dropped his sorry ass from the team. Before that he did nothing, only obeyed to get his seat. What a pathetic character in many ways. Weak.


They are saying that the FIA grant of immunity is corrupt in itself. So any immunity is founded on a fundamentally flawed process. Without wrong doers originally there is nothing to whistle blow about. Turning states evidence etc has often been used as a revenge device in the past and will be again!

Hopefully Karma will get even with Fred if nothing else does! I agree.

[BDunnell]

They are saying that the FIA grant of immunity is corrupt in itself. So any immunity is founded on a fundamentally flawed process. Without wrong doers originally there is nothing to whistle blow about. Turning states evidence etc has often been used as a revenge device in the past and will be again!

There are, on occasions, very good reasons for granting someone immunity from prosecution, if otherwise important evidence relating to a far more serious offence would simply not be produced. However, I can think of no justification for granting such immunity in sport, which is, we would all hopefully agree, not of great importance when compared with those criminal cases where immunity is offered.

[D28]

I concur with philipbain assessment of the 2005 US GP, as being a low mark for F1.

The sight of 6 cars trundling around the massive Indy complex will take some time to get over. That it happened at the home of such classic duels as Clark-Jones, Unser-Fittipaldi, or Villeneuve-Goodyear, makes it all the more absurd. The technical and legal reasons why the Michelin shod teams did not race are well argued elsewhere. It is difficult to believe that NASCAR in a similar situation, would not have found and dictated a solution which would have allowed a real race. Grumblings from some teams would have been ignored and the interest of spectators would have been the primary concern. Of course NASCAR ia a 1 or 2 country series and is not beholden to the FIA, so the situation would be much simpler.

Still, F1 management, or the sponsors claim to want to break into the US market, 330 m people obviously provide a motive. They want to do it on their terms, i.e. F1 is the pinnacle of motor sport in terms of public interest. USA is probably the only country where the best drivers engineers and sponsorship gravitate to sedan racing, rather than open wheel series. About this same time, Michael Schumacher stood in line at a racing circuit, waiting for a pay ride in a stocker, totally unrecognized by everyone. The entire current F1 grid could easily occupy a Holiday Inn lobby unrecognized.

Perhaps the new Texas venue will prove successful for F1 in USA, I don't expect the NJ circuit ever will. The chances of a successful niche market for F1 were greatly set back by the 2005 fiasco.

[steveaki13]

I have to agree about US GP in 2005. It was a farce in which Ferrari, Jordan & Minardi were all as much to blame as the Michelen teams.

Ultimately something could have been done by the teams and FIA and as it was it set F1 back 5 years in the USA

[journeyman racer]

To those who nominated the Schumacher drop kicking Hill at Adelaide? Today is the 19th year anniversary! :o :smash:

[555-04Q2]

The 2005 USGP was the lowest point if you ask me. It was a farcical error made by Michellin and then everyone tried to have a go at the Bridgestone shod cars for not giving in to their whining. Poor form and a poor weekend for F1 :(

Honourable mention for The Shoe for his move on JV and to Senna for taking out Prost in Japan. (People that mentioned The Shoe in OZ 94 is a no no, Hill drove into The Shoe, not the other way around).

[henners88]

The 2005 USGP was the lowest point if you ask me. It was a farcical error made by Michellin and then everyone tried to have a go at the Bridgestone shod cars for not giving in to their whining. Poor form and a poor weekend for F1 :(

Honourable mention for The Shoe for his move on JV and to Senna for taking out Prost in Japan. (People that mentioned The Shoe in OZ 94 is a no no, Hill drove into The Shoe, not the other way around).
I'll never agree that Hill was at fault in '94, never. It was a very low point for Schumacher and tainted his first title IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[anfield5]

Ron Dennis - nothing was ever his or McLaren's fault, his constant whining was more than I could bare.

[Mark]

The biggest problem F1 has always had is predictability. It's boring when you know who will win and so viewing drops like a stone. It happened with Schumacher and it's happening now with Vettel.

[anfield5]

The biggest problem F1 has always had is predictability. It's boring when you know who will win and so viewing drops like a stone. It happened with Schumacher and it's happening now with Vettel.

I'm too young to remember (wasn't hatched until the mid-late 60's), but was there the same feeling in the fifties when Ascari in 52-3 and Fangio were dominating?

[henners88]

The biggest problem F1 has always had is predictability. It's boring when you know who will win and so viewing drops like a stone. It happened with Schumacher and it's happening now with Vettel.

I'm too young to remember (wasn't hatched until the mid-late 60's), but was there the same feeling in the fifties when Ascari in 52-3 and Fangio were dominating?
I very much doubt it as the sport then didn't have a fraction of the following it does now and barely touched the scales of popular opinion. Sport does become boring when it becomes predictable whatever the discipline.

[D-Type]

The biggest problem F1 has always had is predictability. It's boring when you know who will win and so viewing drops like a stone. It happened with Schumacher and it's happening now with Vettel.

I'm too young to remember (wasn't hatched until the mid-late 60's), but was there the same feeling in the fifties when Ascari in 52-3 and Fangio were dominating?

I don't think so. It wasn't televised, so apart from a few radio broadcasts it was a case of go to the race meeting (affordable then) or read about it in one of the magazines. That's why the reporting was so much better and general mags like The Motor and Autocar would carry race reports. There were fewer races which made each one kind of special. And sports car racing had a far higher profile. With fewer GPs there was more interest in national racing.

[555-04Q2]

Ron Dennis - nothing was ever his or McLaren's fault, his constant whining was more than I could bare.

Couldn't agree more!!!!!! He was a bit of a drip, was he not!!!!!! :p:

[555-04Q2]

The 2005 USGP was the lowest point if you ask me. It was a farcical error made by Michellin and then everyone tried to have a go at the Bridgestone shod cars for not giving in to their whining. Poor form and a poor weekend for F1 :(

Honourable mention for The Shoe for his move on JV and to Senna for taking out Prost in Japan. (People that mentioned The Shoe in OZ 94 is a no no, Hill drove into The Shoe, not the other way around).
I'll never agree that Hill was at fault in '94, never. It was a very low point for Schumacher and tainted his first title IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

You are entitled to your opinion, as wrong as it is ;) :p:

In an interview with Hill, he admitted that he got a bit excited and went for the gap in the heat of the moment. He also said, "maybe I should have waited until the next corner". While I have to admit that The Shoe possibly had a badly damaged car (I'm not sure that he realised how badly it was/wasn't damaged at that stage), the footage clearly shows the Benneton in front at the corner with the Williams ploughing into the side of the Benneton and not the other way round. The Shoe didn't do the ramming, Hill did :)

[anfield5]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTInAiuffBZbZhohpAFYDkEt8zkm_RQq DAPOZxJ8OCKLvUu8qRj

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9VGf5Sh8c0fPKv8PkQ6L6T30-3R_AK2EVX_HYcFfo3DtZ2guC

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSn5P8QguBY7au864DS3g04MIy_7LLyA mU6PAloKgn1hy3_zIkA

these do tend to support that argument. There was no room for two cars on that part of the track, and as the overtaking car the onus was on Damon. Schumacher simply didn't torpedo the Williams and he certainly didn't need to get out of Damon's way.

[henners88]

[quote="555-04Q2":1csh5gr8]The 2005 USGP was the lowest point if you ask me. It was a farcical error made by Michellin and then everyone tried to have a go at the Bridgestone shod cars for not giving in to their whining. Poor form and a poor weekend for F1 :(

Honourable mention for The Shoe for his move on JV and to Senna for taking out Prost in Japan. (People that mentioned The Shoe in OZ 94 is a no no, Hill drove into The Shoe, not the other way around).
I'll never agree that Hill was at fault in '94, never. It was a very low point for Schumacher and tainted his first title IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

You are entitled to your opinion, as wrong as it is ;) :p:

In an interview with Hill, he admitted that he got a bit excited and went for the gap in the heat of the moment. He also said, "maybe I should have waited until the next corner". While I have to admit that The Shoe possibly had a badly damaged car (I'm not sure that he realised how badly it was/wasn't damaged at that stage), the footage clearly shows the Benneton in front at the corner with the Williams ploughing into the side of the Benneton and not the other way round. The Shoe didn't do the ramming, Hill did :)[/quote:1csh5gr8]
That is a very lenient way of looking at it. :)

I won't argument it though as I've done that far too much in the past. My opinion Schumacher knew he was out of the race and used the opportunity to take out his rival has remained unchanged for 19 years. I was pleased that in Jerez '97 a similar tactic failed and he was finally exposed and punished. It was incidents like this that unfortunately stopped the best driver in the sports history never being regarded as the outright greatest. Sportsmanship just wasn't in his package, although off track he has always been a genuinely nice guy. I met him in 2004 and was impressed with how he handled the fans and the time he took to sign autographs etc. :)

[555-04Q2]

That is a very lenient way of looking at it. :)

I won't argument it though as I've done that far too much in the past. My opinion Schumacher knew he was out of the race and used the opportunity to take out his rival has remained unchanged for 19 years. I was pleased that in Jerez '97 a similar tactic failed and he was finally exposed and punished. It was incidents like this that unfortunately stopped the best driver in the sports history never being regarded as the outright greatest. Sportsmanship just wasn't in his package, although off track he has always been a genuinely nice guy. I met him in 2004 and was impressed with how he handled the fans and the time he took to sign autographs etc. :)

I stand by my view of the 94 incident, always have and always will ;)

But I do agree that the move on JV in 97 was unacceptable :( As you say, he is actually a genuinely nice bloke in the real world, but on the track he was ruthless which is probably why he was so successful :)

[anfield5]

That is a very lenient way of looking at it. :)

I won't argument it though as I've done that far too much in the past. My opinion Schumacher knew he was out of the race and used the opportunity to take out his rival has remained unchanged for 19 years. I was pleased that in Jerez '97 a similar tactic failed and he was finally exposed and punished. It was incidents like this that unfortunately stopped the best driver in the sports history never being regarded as the outright greatest. Sportsmanship just wasn't in his package, although off track he has always been a genuinely nice guy. I met him in 2004 and was impressed with how he handled the fans and the time he took to sign autographs etc. :)

I stand by my view of the 94 incident, always have and always will ;)

But I do agree that the move on JV in 97 was unacceptable :( As you say, he is actually a genuinely nice bloke in the real world, but on the track he was ruthless which is probably why he was so successful :)

This is the case with many of the great drivers though. You say that Schumacher's win at all costs approach ensured he couldn't be regarded as the best of all time, which is a fair enough comment. So what about Senna? He had an amazing habit of taking Prost out of the Japanese GP, so Senna then can't be considered as the best F1 driver either having twice intentionally crashed into his rival.

[D-Type]

True for 1990, not for 1989

[555-04Q2]

Either way Senna was far dirtier than The Shoe was, taking out Prost and punching people when he felt but he is held in higher regard which is strange. Add to the fact that The Shoe has twice the record Senna has (ok I know he tragically died prematurely and couldn't extend his record) and it just doesn't make sense, does it :confused: :p:

[henners88]

That is a very lenient way of looking at it. :)

I won't argument it though as I've done that far too much in the past. My opinion Schumacher knew he was out of the race and used the opportunity to take out his rival has remained unchanged for 19 years. I was pleased that in Jerez '97 a similar tactic failed and he was finally exposed and punished. It was incidents like this that unfortunately stopped the best driver in the sports history never being regarded as the outright greatest. Sportsmanship just wasn't in his package, although off track he has always been a genuinely nice guy. I met him in 2004 and was impressed with how he handled the fans and the time he took to sign autographs etc. :)

I stand by my view of the 94 incident, always have and always will ;)

But I do agree that the move on JV in 97 was unacceptable :( As you say, he is actually a genuinely nice bloke in the real world, but on the track he was ruthless which is probably why he was so successful :)

This is the case with many of the great drivers though. You say that Schumacher's win at all costs approach ensured he couldn't be regarded as the best of all time, which is a fair enough comment. So what about Senna? He had an amazing habit of taking Prost out of the Japanese GP, so Senna then can't be considered as the best F1 driver either having twice intentionally crashed into his rival.
I think I was the one who made the comment about Schumacher not being classed as the greatest not 555-04Q2. I said Schumacher IMO could without question be classed as the 'best' driver in the sports history. I say this because his record speaks for itself. However my criteria for picking a great or greatest is not just about results and statistics. You are right about Senna too. I don't believe he could be classed as the greatest because he had moments where sportsmanship went completely out of the window and downright ruthlessness took its place. I think the likes of Fangio and Clark have a better chance of the consideration.

This sort of opinion though is very subjective and is difficult to judge because we all have different views on what effect these guys have had on us.

[henners88]

True for 1990, not for 1989
I remember Prost giving an interview in the late 90's where he said he saw Senna before their collision in '89 and could have avoided it, but felt he had the right to take the corner so turned in. I've always felt Prost caused that one, but '90 was a different story. I think it was one each on those. :)

[555-04Q2]

I think the likes of Fangio and Clark have a better chance of the consideration.

This sort of opinion though is very subjective and is difficult to judge because we all have different views on what effect these guys have had on us.

Another thought is that back then they were true gentlemen and there was probably less to win/lose compared with today's F1 and the huge effort and money that goes into it. Just like kids, todays drivers are not that well behaved anymore :p:

[journeyman racer]

hehehe, it's always funny when someone tries to say it wasn't Schuey's fault.

[555-04Q2]

It's even funnier when people try and say it was his fault ;) lol

[journeyman racer]

The collision would never have happened in the manner it did, had Schuey been a point behind Hill. The Jerez episode confirmed it. The difference between Hill and Villeneuve, was that Hill was alongside because Schumacher was slower than he normally would've been. Hill was confronted with an unusual situation and had to go for the gap (regardless of which side was open) he otherwise wouldn't have. Villeneuve was attempting a legitimate passing move ( a fairly bold one) and had the momentum to withstand Schuey's cheap, sneaky jab. Hill was forced to slow down and had no momentum to force his way through.

If nothing else, it's undeniable that Schuey choked at the previous corner! An often forgotten fact, but yes he did!

[Doc Austin]

I can't imagine what Max Mosley was thinking when he got involved with Nazi hookers, or had a Nazi orgy or whatever it was. I'm really surprised that the FIA members didn't just toss him out on his ear right then and there. I'll never understand how he had a shred of credibility with anyone after that.

It's not the sex, and it's not even the hooker angle. I just find it pretty sick and disgusting that not only did Max live out a Nazi fantasy, but even worse the FIA let him keep his position. Even more amazing is that Max didn't have enough dignity to resign. In the end, the biggest shame of the whole thing must rest not on Mosley himself, but on the sports as a whole for doing absolutely nothing about it. I find it incredible that no one seemed to care.

On the track, I found all of Schumacher's chopping, blocking and swerving took the sport right out of F1. I did not mind Schumacher winning, or even dominating. He was clearly the most talented driver of his generation, which is what makes it so appalling he had to behave that way. He didn't need to do it. If he had just raced harder and stayed clean I'm pretty sure he would have won almost as much.

I'de rather have five, or even four championships that I won cleanly instead that seven I won dirty. Hell, I'de rather have one of Mika Hakkinen's championships than all of Schumachers.

[henners88]

I thought the Nazi element with Max's scandal was a News of the World spin? Max denied there was any Nazi connotations and I far as I am aware there was no evidence to suggest he was lying. I think the women were in uniforms, but not Nazi ones. I don't think it tainted the sport, but more embarrassed a man and showed what a sad world we live in where newspapers will sink as low as possible to get a story.

[Doc Austin]

I thought the Nazi element with Max's scandal was a News of the World spin? Max denied there was any Nazi connotations and I far as I am aware there was no evidence to suggest he was lying.

Mosley either sued or is currently suing google to have the images removed from their search programming, so it is hard to find much on it any more.

http://guardianlv.com/2013/11/google-or ... ty-images/ (http://guardianlv.com/2013/11/google-ordered-to-remove-max-mosley-nazi-sex-party-images/)

I remember at the time it was reported they were playing out a concentration camp "fantasy" (if that's what they want to call it) and checking Max for lice.


I think the women were in uniforms, but not Nazi ones.

I'm pretty sure you can't even get anything like that any more. In the model car industry, you can't get any of the auto union cars with swastikas on them. whether or not that is a good thing is another argument.

As far as whether they were or were not Nazi uniforms, so much has been pulled off of the net that it is hard to tell, and so much of it was photoshopped anyway that it is impossible to prove one way or the other.


I don't think it tainted the sport, but more embarrassed a man and showed what a sad world we live in where newspapers will sink as low as possible to get a story.

While I agree with what you've said about the media, I'm not so sure they made this stuff up.

Perhaps what set all the speculation up is that Max' father was Sir Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Fascist party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley

[zako85]

It seems like the previous posters covered most of the based pretty well. Good reading. I chuckled a bit..

In addition:

Senna and Prost crashing into each other in 1989 and 1990.

Jean-Marie Balestre's Prost favoritism.

[anfield5]

F#@!$ing about with the points system to artificially manipulate the championship!

Leave the points alone you morons!!!

[D28]

Agreed, vigorous opposition to this move appeared in several motorsport forums. Edd Straw at Autosport did an interesting analysis of previous years.
The system would strongly punish any driver dnf'g the final race. Thus Villeneuve would be champion in 1979, Ickx in 1970, and the ultimate absurdity Fangio in 1953. Fangio's 16 points at Monza, to Ascari's 0 would give him the title despite despite winning once to 5 for Ascari's. In case you think this was because of the few races, and points available, the same calculations, only proportionally bigger could apply in 2014. Thus, Vettel going into Abu Dhabi with 49 points clear of Alonso, could lose to him by dropping out, while Alonso won. One wonders if F1 honchos are capable of doing such analysis, or even care.
This in addition to Abu Dhabi being worth twice the importance of Spa or Silverstone, and one is forced to conclude F1 has simply lost the plot on this one. All for improved TV ratings? Just what is the purpose of GP racing these days?

[D-Type]

I suppose the double points will lead to someone repeating Suzuka 1990 tactics which will no doubt make good theatre, increase the TV advertising revenues, and ....

[Doc Austin]

F#@!$ing about with the points system to artificially manipulate the championship!

Leave the points alone you morons!!!

I didn't like it when they changed from 9 points to 10 points to win. I also hated it when you had to drop a race. I don't know what's wrong with having a straight up fight like the old days.

Of course, in the old days the sport was what was most important, not how much money Benie was raking in. I read where Bernie wants the last three races to be double points, making it virtually impossible for anyone to clinch early. Hell, may as well use nascar's chase formula.

You know, it's all about the show, attendance, ratings, and all about the money in motorsports now days. It's sickening. You would think Formula One could stay above all of that and be about the sport instead.