Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[T16]

That's the guy :D

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Can't remember the traffic law bit, but fair play to him on the videos.

[cali]

Can't remember the traffic law bit, but fair play to him on the videos.He tried to get Tänak penalized by the FIA for overtaking a car with a small slide on a snowy conditions on Monte 2018 road section. Even wrote to the FIA as well.

Can't argue about the videos though, he's producing some very good stuff.

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[EstWRC]

have fun reading it https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?39790-WRC-Driver-Conduct-On-Road-Sections-Case-T%E4nak-at-Monte-Carlo

[cali]

have fun reading it https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?39790-WRC-Driver-Conduct-On-Road-Sections-Case-T%E4nak-at-Monte-CarloYou opened Pandora's box my friend....

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[EstWRC]

its so quiet at this time of the year on this forum, so why not :D

[the sniper]

have fun reading it https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?39790-WRC-Driver-Conduct-On-Road-Sections-Case-T%E4nak-at-Monte-Carlo

No, please... it's too painful! You know what they say, never meet your heroes! :D

[KiwiWRCfan]

Interesting to compare the 2019 top 10s of Dave Evans, Colin Clark and Jerry Williams, also a French website did a top 5 drivers.
All regular P1 drivers except 1 made it onto at least 1 of the 3 top 10 lists

[BigWorm]

So, end of a decade. Which rallies were the most entertaining/greatest of the decade? I'll start with a few:

2010 NZ
2012 Portugal
2013 Alsace
2014 Deutschland
2015 Sweden
2017 Poland
2018 Sardinia
2018 Spain
2018 Australia
2019 MC
2019 GB

[atsiotras79]

2011 Acropolis...

[Rallyper]

2011 Acropolis...

And we met in 2012. The last WRC Acropolis rally. Do you remember the name of the Japanese guy who hanged with us? Do you Dimviii?

[papar007]

We met also on this rally!
Thanks to Tasos

[dimviii]

And we met in 2012. The last WRC Acropolis rally. Do you remember the name of the Japanese guy who hanged with us? Do you Dimviii?

no i dont remember Per.

[AnttiL]

2012. The last WRC Acropolis rally.

2013 ;)

[BigWorm]

2011 Acropolis...

Yes. Was a good event indeed.

[steve.mandzij]

So, end of a decade. Which rallies were the most entertaining/greatest of the decade? I'll start with a few:

2010 NZ
2012 Portugal
2013 Alsace
2014 Deutschland
2015 Sweden
2017 Poland
2018 Sardinia
2018 Spain
2018 Australia
2019 MC
2019 GB

2016 Argentina is up there IMO with Latvala's mega upset and Paddon's maiden win in absolute style with his El Condor blitz.

2017 Argentina too, with Meeke's double bangers and Elfyn losing out on a maiden victory on his Dmacks (by 0.7 of a second!) with his tap of the bridge on the El Condor showdown.

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[atsiotras79]

And we met in 2012. The last WRC Acropolis rally. Do you remember the name of the Japanese guy who hanged with us? Do you Dimviii?

Shigeki Tajima
Acropolis 2013 was the last WRC event.
Remember the downhill part near the end of SS2, Agia Marina? I still tell stories about it... 😊

[dimviii]

Shigeki Tajima
Acropolis 2013 was the last WRC event.
Remember the downhill part near the end of SS2, Agia Marina? I still tell stories about it... ��
haha,you really remember the name of the Japanese guy?

[atsiotras79]

haha,you really remember the name of the Japanese guy?

I remember very few Japanese surnames, Arai, Fujimoto, Kamioka, Katsuta, Nutahara, and “Monster” Tajima. He was lucky it was one of them... 😂

[Rallyper]

Shigeki Tajima
Acropolis 2013 was the last WRC event.
Remember the downhill part near the end of SS2, Agia Marina? I still tell stories about it... ��

Yeah. That downhill.. stones big as footballs in the ruts... Ostberg throwed them in the air with his car like they were nothing. We started early in the morning from Loutraki, still dark, you, me and Shigeki. Very good memory having met wonderful friends.

[janvanvurpa]

Bar talk....Hej alla ni galna Finska ralli-dårar:.

Can some of you guys look at this short little clip of some mad-man named Pasi Erikilä in a bad-ass Toyota in a rallisprint and tell me what the big signs are with numbers he passes with such grace and beauty??
I'm guessing interval time or splits or something Here's the vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcVJEHoTUtw&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2FrAs8blmkxQTQZmXb8YPOQLOZcuhg9tI5fFpjY caRm8sIEC53w4FLKZI

[Rallyper]

Bar talk....Hej alla ni galna Finska ralli-dårar:.

Can some of you guys look at this short little clip of some mad-man named Pasi Erikilä in a bad-ass Toyota in a rallisprint and tell me what the big signs are with numbers he passes with such grace and beauty??
I'm guessing interval time or splits or something Here's the vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcVJEHoTUtw&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2FrAs8blmkxQTQZmXb8YPOQLOZcuhg9tI5fFpjY caRm8sIEC53w4FLKZI

I would like to know where is that stage? Hope it´s situated in Keski Suomi. Would suit as stage in Rally Finland. At least as SD... :) :)

[AnttiL]

Bar talk....Hej alla ni galna Finska ralli-dårar:.

Can some of you guys look at this short little clip of some mad-man named Pasi Erikilä in a bad-ass Toyota in a rallisprint and tell me what the big signs are with numbers he passes with such grace and beauty??
I'm guessing interval time or splits or something Here's the vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcVJEHoTUtw&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2FrAs8blmkxQTQZmXb8YPOQLOZcuhg9tI5fFpjY caRm8sIEC53w4FLKZI

I'm not completely familiar with rallisprint rules, but those number signs seem to represent some segments of the stage. Rallisprint is a form of motorsport where you create a track out of roads and you can drive also on rallycross cars because the way back to to the service and start of the stage doesn't involve driving on open public roads. Everyone drives two passes, with no pace notes.

Here's pictures from the event, you can see that car #10 is a Corvette :D https://www.rallikuvat.net/2005/kankaanpaa/


I would like to know where is that stage? Hope it´s situated in Keski Suomi. Would suit as stage in Rally Finland. At least as SD... :) :)

Kankaanpää, quite far from Rally Finland.

The video looks awesome, but the biggest reason for that is the old incar camera. If that was a modern GoPro with a wide angle lense showing out from both side windows, it would look bland...

Here's another old RWD incar which looks totally crazy thanks to the camera angle and lense. This is a part of the Juupajoki stage driven often in Rally Finland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ywOOOc-sc

[Zeakiwi2]

To keep the price of the future wrc rally cars down. How about just keep the current petrol only cars for the stages and then tow or trailer the rally cars with an electric or hybrid car/ suv or pick up ute through the villages between stages. The electric/ hybrids can be used as recce cars as well to keep the noise down during recce.

That way the manufacturers get marketing exposure for their SUVs/ utes. as well on the event. (A lot of rally cars get trailered to events around Europe etc how about just extending the trailering to between stages?

The WRC drivers could give the stage a real go if they know a team trailer is waiting at the end of the stage to get a broken car along a road section back to the service centre.

[EstWRC]

Small problem and we had to stop on stage 3. No dramas and everything is working! On to the next one!
#tunturiralli

https://twitter.com/kallerovanpera/status/1218188804223328256?s=21

[EstWRC]

Kimmo Töyrylä
@imitaattori1981
·
Jan 18
I did research and last 2 @OfficialWRC seasons 2018 & 2019 have drive 26 #wrc rally's !

@OttTanak/ @SebOgier/ @thierryneuville have won together 23 of those 26!!

What we can except in 2020?

https://twitter.com/imitaattori1981/status/1218450583629320192?s=20

[AnttiL]

I started a series on my blog which tells the history of the routes of 1000 Lakes Rally / Rally Finland. The first part covers 1973-1981. Most driving was done overnight. Both route and stage lengths varied from very long to very short.

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2019/10/18/rally-finland-route-history-i-1973-1981/

And now the series is completed, read all 25 000 words here https://itgetsfasternow.com/tag/rally-finland-route-history/

[Rallyper]

And now the series is completed, read all 25 000 words here https://itgetsfasternow.com/tag/rally-finland-route-history/

Good work! I´ll try to use it more. Especially days after 20 februari...

[AnttiL]

Good work! I´ll try to use it more. Especially days after 20 februari...

Tack så mycket! My target was to finish the series before the new route is announced ;)

[TypeR]

Have noticed Neuville flying with heli many times from his socialmedia, but didn't know he can fly himself alone too.. (today's Instagram story)
Pretty cool hobby! Could apply for a job at Wrc AllLive after retiring :D
https://www.upload.ee/image/11073093/Screenshot_20200203-153153_Instagram.jpg

[Oliverk]

If you want to die early, buy a helicopter and fly with it.

[tommeke_B]

From what I've heard he learned flying from the people who are filming WRC for many years. Their company is based in Spa, not so far from his original home. He's also flying one of those yellow helicopters. Think he's been doing it for 4 years now, and yes, he knows you can't take any risks with a helicopter.

[TypeR]

From what I've heard he learned flying from the people who are filming WRC for many years. Their company is based in Spa, not so far from his original home. He's also flying one of those yellow helicopters. Think he's been doing it for 4 years now, and yes, he knows you can't take any risks with a helicopter.
Thanks for the information, cheers!

[KKS]

If you want to die early, buy a helicopter and fly with it.
You can die early by siting at home or take a bath. You never know how it happen.

[AnttiL]

If you want to die early, buy a helicopter and fly with it.

or start rallying

[KiwiWRCfan]

https://twitter.com/AdamoSays/status/1224717042365763584?s=20

[Zeakiwi2]

I see that Rally NZ is scheduled for 6-8 the September 2020.

I was reminded that the Waikato local authority turned down the holding of a one day rally in 2013 (to be run on the 7th September) because their 'local motorsport plans' did not allow rallies to be held at that time of year.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/8794531/Council-denies-Possum-memorial-request

The Super cars round for NZ in 2020 has shifted race circuits because someone did not look at the first circuits rules of operation. The backup circuit still needs a special permit to allow a bigger crowd than is currently allowed to attend the circuit.

Local bureaucracy gets sillier every year in NZ.

[dimviii]

Meet The Saviours Of Mitsubishi’s Last WRC Era

http://www.speedhunters.com/2020/02/meet-the-saviours-of-mitsubishis-wrc-era/

[Humber]

Looks like Maniwaki, Canada has more snow than Sweden. Perce Neige 2020

https://youtu.be/E4abWV3OU84

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I heard an interesting discussion on a recent podcast about Toyota vs Hyundai and their different driver strategies.

Hyundai are going with their 'driver rotation' system again, bringing in a different 3rd driver according to the rally; whereas Toyota are keeping the same 3 drivers on every round.

So who will have advantage this year, especially now that Toyota has an arguably stronger full-time line-up than in 2019 ? Is it better to rotate drivers for their best events, or is using the same driver's on all rounds and their extra seat-time going to pay off ?

[deephouse]

For Toyota we have all three drivers with possibility for title challenge (Yes Rovanpera too - I think that he can be up there). Lack of permanent Breen, Sordo, Loeb, Latvala, Katsuta, Greensmith program just made that option easier. And lack of drivers of Mikkelsen, Meeke, Ostberg and Paddon just add another step to the upper places on leaderboard. But on the other hand all three or at least the first ones could clash and make tension in Toyota's camp.

On Hyundai side the case is not any kind of different just the 3rd driver is not always the same so it's only on two guys, but tension could be the same.

But who cares, as long is there battles to the end and not normal Sunday's cruising through stages and then one Suninen who ''pushes'' on the PS.

[John Vanlandingham]

Looks like Maniwaki, Canada has more snow than Sweden. Perce Neige 2020

https://youtu.be/E4abWV3OU84

And huge crowds and all the drivers are all unbelieveable fast so fast they have to use slow motion so that you can see them pr whoooooooooooooooooooosh! Lightning!

This is the elite of North America..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCTl0FH-2zs

[AnttiL]

I heard an interesting discussion on a recent podcast about Toyota vs Hyundai and their different driver strategies.

Hyundai are going with their 'driver rotation' system again, bringing in a different 3rd driver according to the rally; whereas Toyota are keeping the same 3 drivers on every round.

So who will have advantage this year, especially now that Toyota has an arguably stronger full-time line-up than in 2019 ? Is it better to rotate drivers for their best events, or is using the same driver's on all rounds and their extra seat-time going to pay off ?

Absolute Rally podcast, for the record.

I think the situation is different for this season. Last year both teams had a clear number one and then support drivers. Now it seems both teams have two title contenders and a third driver. Remember, last year Hyundai rotated even the second driver seat in some rallies. This year the third driver won't have as much pressure, and thus the rotating won't have as much of an effect, although it helps with some Friday road positions (but is negative for the tarmac rallies).

It's interesting that now Sordo is basically doing all rallies from Mexico to Sardegna. They get best of both worlds with him having most likely a good starting position having skipped two rallies, but also keeping him "fit" with continuous rallying.

[deephouse]

https://www.croatiaweek.com/croatia-aiming-to-host-world-rally-championship-in-2021/

looks like Croatia are again interested in hosting a WRC round.

[AnttiL]

https://www.croatiaweek.com/croatia-aiming-to-host-world-rally-championship-in-2021/

looks like Croatia are again interested in hosting a WRC round.


According to the president of the Croatian Auto & Karting Federation, Davorin Štetner, if Croatia can pass the candidate race in October with flying colours, then they will win the right to host the WRC for the next ten years.

:eek::rolleyes:

[skarderud]

And huge crowds and all the drivers are all unbelieveable fast so fast they have to use slow motion so that you can see them pr whoooooooooooooooooooosh! Lightning!

This is the elite of North America..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCTl0FH-2zs

What kind of tires do they use? Standard streetlegal tires?

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[mknight]

It's interesting that now Sordo is basically doing all rallies from Mexico to Sardegna. They get best of both worlds with him having most likely a good starting position having skipped two rallies, but also keeping him "fit" with continuous rallying.

Within 2-3 rallies Sordo could get somewhere around 5th place and the road cleaning advantage will get much reduced.

Anyway on paper switching drivers for best road positions sounds like a better idea. Problem is that you need drivers of about comparable (and stable) skill level who want to do that. Basically you need more Sordo's :). Younger/less experienced drivers are not stable enough to just jump in and do well (Breen) and drivers who have some wins are not very interested in that kind of program in the long run.

[dimviii]

nice read.

https://www.facebook.com/1405643572818621/posts/2305820596134243/?d=n

[the sniper]

I was looking at the ewrc donations this afternoon and noticed a reasonably big jump in the percentage after refreshing the page. Erik Veiby's name had appeared on the list. Good on him!

[AnttiL]

I was looking at the ewrc donations this afternoon and noticed a reasonably big jump in the percentage after refreshing the page. Erik Veiby's name had appeared on the list. Good on him!

He has donated every year.

Craig Breen has also donated now.

[the sniper]

He has donated every year.

Craig Breen has also donated now.

I know, but when you can work out how much has been given it's more impressive. :D

[TypeR]

Ewrc-results is kind of a national treasure in rallying.. Soo much information, results, cars history etc, that one could only imagine..
Awesome! Keep up the good work!

[Rally Hokkaido]

What kind of tires do they use? Standard streetlegal tires?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

In Japan we use winter rally tyres without studs due to ban on studded tyres on public roads. IIRC, Canada does the same.

[OHL]

What kind of tires do they use? Standard streetlegal tires?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

As mentioned, the Yokohama A-034 was a popular tyre for many years around the world if there was snow and you couldn't take a studded tyre. I think those were discontinued a couple of years ago and not sure what people are using now.
For ice conditions, a Michelin X-Ice, Bridgestone Blizzak or similar are popular choices. They are usually also tractionized, a process involving spinning the tyre over steel rollers with small sharp pins that rip up the rubber on the tyre making it like carpet. This is the best possible tyre for ice.
If conditions are mixed with frozen gravel and risk of punctures, then some version of the Nokian Hakka line like the C series or other light truck/SUV tyre is a decent choice for overall grip and puncture resistance.
It looks horribly slow, because it is. Imagine having almost no grip and just trying to manage what you can find. Not ideal at all but required by the areas that hold the rally's.

[skarderud]

Then they need some changes in laws to run a decent winterrally?

Studless not top of the line street-tires is a good explanation of the slowmo video, even the standard nokian hakka9 would been a better choice then:)


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[Pršljen]

:eek::rolleyes:

Ten years contract!? Well that would be something, even the traditional rallies can't get it for more than season or two. I am from Croatia and this thing went completely under the radar of media which is very strange because we don't get many sport events of this calibre.

Also, there isn't much talk about that October candidate event, where is it supposed to be held, no one knows. It's most probable that they are planning to do it in the region of Istra (NW of country), tourist region with some rally tradition, and that the surface will be mixed (at least that was rumoured couple of years ago when Croatia was mentioned for the first time as a WRC candidate).

[Kaps]

No, not Istra at all this time, from what I've heard.

But the whole thing looks somewhat strange ATM, so let's just wait and see...

[deephouse]

In some articles it's mentioned also that few stages could get across the border to Slovenia. But I think that they just assume this from last time they did want to enter and fail against Turkey.

[Rallyper]

Must see: Mattias Ekström in Swedsih Championship round one in Vännäs: says "when rallying at its best" about SS12 in Rally Vännäs. Note: Look all the way to the end. English speaking rounding up.

https://www.facebook.com/EKSRX/videos/207464087281282/?__so__=permalink&__rv__=related_videos

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If you didn't see @BBC_TopGear's moving tribute to Colin McRae and @harrismonkey's drive of his championship-winning Impreza then you can watch it on BBC iplayer here at 11 min 30 sec: https://t.co/oTzXk5rOgV

[Zeakiwi2]

Meeke and Marshall for Rally Whangarei/ NZ in Mazda 2 AP4

http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/wrc-star-meeke-confirmed-for-whangarei/?fbclid=IwAR2F9Qkp39kui7LMHrkSD5He4jN9W1lxvtl1yrSB hQRy4UiGqar0WyqzMb8

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I heard an interesting discussion on a recent podcast about Toyota vs Hyundai and their different driver strategies.

Hyundai are going with their 'driver rotation' system again, bringing in a different 3rd driver according to the rally; whereas Toyota are keeping the same 3 drivers on every round.

So who will have advantage this year, especially now that Toyota has an arguably stronger full-time line-up than in 2019 ? Is it better to rotate drivers for their best events, or is using the same driver's on all rounds and their extra seat-time going to pay off ?

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-hyundais-driver-shuffle-has-raised-eyebrows/

[deephouse]

Meeke and Marshall for Rally Whangarei/ NZ in Mazda 2 AP4

http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/wrc-star-meeke-confirmed-for-whangarei/?fbclid=IwAR2F9Qkp39kui7LMHrkSD5He4jN9W1lxvtl1yrSB hQRy4UiGqar0WyqzMb8

“It seems,” he told DirtFish, “that Tommi has more free time to think about my drivers than I have free time to think about his comments.”

Hahaha what a legend

[dimviii]

nice video about the 205t 16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=69&v=rhaXJQCa5lQ&feature=emb_logo

[pantealex]

If we count all points collected with each brand after 3 rallies:
(based on overall Top 10)

Toyota 150 (49+54+47)
Hyundai 91 (33+33+25)
Ford 47 (16+14+17)
Skoda 8 (0+0+8)
Citroen 7 (3+0+4)

Total 303 (101+101+101)
(MC+SWE+MEX)

[AndyRAC]

Quick question to any people out there who may know - how many of the WRC drivers use a personal simulation rig? Following a weekend of watching virtual motorsport, some were quite good (IMSA Sebring, VLN, etc) there were/are plenty of drivers who use it as a tool of the trade. Now, we know rallying is different, but sims like iRacing/ rFactor2 are pretty serious. The reason I ask is I saw Craig Breen on instagram going to collect his system.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Any youngsters want to see what Malcolm Wilson used to be like check out this vid from the 1984 RAC Rally:

https://youtu.be/N2lEZvLUcYQ at 3.40 in.

[SubaruNorway]

Benjamin Ward from the forum will be doing a live skype interview with Nicky Grist tomorrow the 25th at 16:00 CET on his FB page, you can also send your questions in.

https://www.facebook.com/benjaminwardrallydriver/posts/2883932168331607

[wyler]

Quick question to any people out there who may know - how many of the WRC drivers use a personal simulation rig? Following a weekend of watching virtual motorsport, some were quite good (IMSA Sebring, VLN, etc) there were/are plenty of drivers who use it as a tool of the trade. Now, we know rallying is different, but sims like iRacing/ rFactor2 are pretty serious. The reason I ask is I saw Craig Breen on instagram going to collect his system.

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/solbergs-launch-virtual-rallying-contest/

[doubled1978]

Podcast/Interview between Chris Harris and Nicky Grist, it’s long but there are some good stories in there...

https://youtu.be/9OkI6-GK4fU

[SubaruNorway]

Interview with Nicky Grist live on skype if you missed it earlier!
https://www.facebook.com/benjaminwardrallydriver/videos/2608177516123922/

[AnttiL]

https://youtu.be/5Yn5tHHL268

I made English subtitles for this 1988 Kankkunen/Piironen interview programme. Many golden lines there.

[dimviii]

how the times change.
he bought a ascona 400,move it with his trailer,and won a wrc round.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVepFlPXYAAJRhw?format=jpg&name=large

[dimviii]

about JOLLY CLUB

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-jolly-club-meant-to-the-wrc/

[denkimi]

how the times change.
he bought a ascona 400,move it with his trailer,and won a wrc round.

the times when you could just buy those cars and drive them with a small mechanics team.

[AnttiL]

the times when you could just buy those cars and drive them with a small mechanics team.

Really the end of those times. I think Hannu Mikkola said that Audi was the first real factory team on the level of professionalism.

[Rallyper]

Really the end of those times. I think Hannu Mikkola said that Audi was the first real factory team on the level of professionalism.

I should say a "new level of professionalism" maybe, because there were as we all know, professional factoryteams before the Audi-era.

[Rally Power]

I should say a "new level of professionalism" maybe, because there were as we all know, professional factoryteams before the Audi-era.

Yep, Audi was probably the first WRC manu employing wider resources but they surely weren’t more professional than Lancia/Fiat, Ford, Opel, Peugeot and even the European teams representing Japanese brands (btw, Audi only beat those on the Safari in 1987, Audi’s WRC final year).

[AnttiL]

Yes, that's what I (or actually Mikkola) meant with the quote. The level of effort and budget was so enormous to anything before that.

[doubled1978]

Yes, that's what I (or actually Mikkola) meant with the quote. The level of effort and budget was so enormous to anything before that.

Yes, it wasn’t only 4wd that they changed the sport with....

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Talking of levels of professionalism, remember when the Teams each had spotter helicopters in the Group B days. The costs were crazy and the modern teams do it on the cheap in comparison.

[AnttiL]

Talking of levels of professionalism, remember when the Teams each had spotter helicopters in the Group B days. The costs were crazy and the modern teams do it on the cheap in comparison.

Let's do a comparison table

Number of events - now 14, then you could only count 7 best from 12-13.
Length of an event - now 300-350 km, then 500-1000 km (and then the African rallies were something else)
Number of tyres allowed - now 32 per rally per car, in two compounds - back then you could change all tyres after every stage, in unlimited types and compounds.
Number of services - roughly two hours per day, back then a quick service between every stage
Type of service - now persistent service park with lots of buildings that take days to put up and tear down, back then the service vans ran after the rally cars
Recce length - now 2 days, back then unlimited, typically several weeks
Testing days - now basically one day per driver per rally, back then teams had dedicated test drivers doing long test periods and tyres had to be tested separately
Limited parts - Only three engines per season is now allowed - back then no limits.

the list goes on...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Length of an event - now 300-350 km, then 500-1000 km (and then the African rallies were something else)


Since the Group B era of the 1980s, it had been protocol for the top teams to assign each car its own spotter helicopter, due to the event’s vast uncontrolled stages. It was “hideously expensive,” according to Paul Howarth, the Subaru team’s former operations director, “but bloody exciting.”

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/wrcs-maddest-event-east-africas-safari-rally

[Rally Power]

Yes, it wasn’t only 4wd that they changed the sport with....

Yep, 4WD is Audi lasting legacy to rallysport but they also managed to reshape WRC marketing value, at least for a couple of decades. For sure Dr Piëch would improve Audi results with or without the WRC but the Quattro rally programme was vital to upgrade the brand image, far beyond the basic ‘race on Sunday, sell on Monday’.

Btw, Peugeot with the 205 and later Subaru with the Impreza or Mitsubishi with the Lancer also successfully upgraded their brands image with the help of a serious WRC effort, but with so many changes since the late 90's is the series still challenging enough to provide manus that kind of evolution?

[dimviii]

Colin Clark’s top 10 rallying memories: A passion is born

Our voice of rally begins his countdown with his first visit stageside, as he unknowingly befriended a Monte legend

https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/colin-clarks-top-10-rallying-memories-a-passion-is-born/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Volkswagen Motorsport (+ Ogier/Ingrassia) also raised the level of professionalism when they joined the WRC in 2013.

I dont think it made much of a difference to their image or sales though... and certainly not enough to offset the following diesel-gate crisis.

[doubled1978]

Yep, 4WD is Audi lasting legacy to rallysport but they also managed to reshape WRC marketing value, at least for a couple of decades. For sure Dr Piëch would improve Audi results with or without the WRC but the Quattro rally programme was vital to upgrade the brand image, far beyond the basic ‘race on Sunday, sell on Monday’.

Btw, Peugeot with the 205 and later Subaru with the Impreza or Mitsubishi with the Lancer also successfully upgraded their brands image with the help of a serious WRC effort, but with so many changes since the late 90's is the series still challenging enough to provide manus that kind of evolution?

I’m not sure a brand can come and expect the amazing impact that the Audi & Subaru programmes in particular had, those two in particular had incredible results to their brand image. In fairness to Audi, after rallying they used motorsport very well to promote the brand, the USA adventure of Pikes Peak, Trans-Am and IMSA did great things for them in America, and they came home to Germany and gave Merc and BMW a hiding in the DTM with that V8 Limo DTM car, went to Super Touring and dominated with the A4, and then the Le Mans programme gave them so many technical opportunities and successes.
Subaru on the other hand, did nothing after rally and now I’d struggle to know what they sell.
Oddly if the Puma thing is true for Ford, actually that class of car (small SUV) could provide the WRC with a lifeline as they sell in huge numbers, and they are suited to the look of a rally car rather than circuit cars.
I guess the reasons for a brand to get involved in any motorsport differ relative to what they trying to achieve, as has been said on this forum before Opel feels like a brand that needs a programme of some sort to help it get on the map again, and rallying is probably a good fit for the in terms of the brands they would competing with.
I still can’t get my head around Renault in F1 really, despite the fact they have at times been very successful, the brand feels out of place with Ferrari and Mercedes and even Honda, and now they don’t win anything how they justify it is beyond me.

[AnttiL]

Volkswagen Motorsport (+ Ogier/Ingrassia) also raised the level of professionalism when they joined the WRC in 2013.

How? Or did they just do it better? I don't believe they were able to use more resources than in the 80's and 90's or even the 00's.

[Rally Power]

Volkswagen Motorsport (+ Ogier/Ingrassia) also raised the level of professionalism when they joined the WRC in 2013.
I dont think it made much of a difference to their image or sales though... and certainly not enough to offset the following diesel-gate crisis.

The question is about to know if the WRC is still relevant to change the brands image, like it happened with Audi, Peugeot, Subaru and Mitsubishi in the past.

That doesn’t mean that image revamping should be the main purpose for all manus entering the WRC, as clearly it wasn’t in VW case.


Btw, here’s a nice piece about the Quattro origin and aims, by Wheels magazine: https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/quattro-history

and Prodrive study on Subaru's WRC effect:
https://www.prodrive.com/motorsport-casestudies-swrt/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How? Or did they just do it better? I don't believe they were able to use more resources than in the 80's and 90's or even the 00's.

We dont know their spending but VW certainly had plenty of money. But whatever it was, they came in and utterly dominated the existing WRC teams.

To me i wasnt just money though, but rather that their greater professionalism = Better. And as stated Ogier/Ingrassia had a lot to do with that too.

They gave Ogier a year in the Fabia to prepare; their Polo WRC was a tank as well as fast; Ogier drove the team and engineers to excel; and Jost Capito had huge experience and left no stone unturned or anything to chance. VW Motorsport was a machine !

[dimviii]

We dont know their spending but VW certainly had plenty of money. But whatever it was, they came in and utterly dominated the existing WRC teams.

To me i wasnt just money though, but rather that their greater professionalism = Better. And as stated Ogier/Ingrassia had a lot to do with that too.

They gave Ogier a year in the Fabia to prepare; their Polo WRC was a tank as well as fast; Ogier drove the team and engineers to excel; and Jost Capito had huge experience and left no stone unturned or anything to chance. VW Motorsport was a machine !

all of these, Citroen did for a decade.Nothing new.Plenty of money,proffesionalism,cars fast out of the box,dominating etc

[AnttiL]

The point is that what Audi did was throw a lot of money and put up a whole department in the factory for developing the rally car, to use it as a marketing tool. Since then teams like Lancia, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Peugeot, Citroen and VW have also been successful in their own eras, but they haven't upped the level of effort as much as Audi did. VW was just a lot better than the other teams during their era, and they had the best driver of the era (same as Citroen the decade before). The rules alone controlled better how much you could do development during a homologation period and what are the limits of a car whereas in the group B days it was quite the Wild West.

[dimviii]

Tand put up a whole department in the factory for developing the rally car, to use it as a marketing tool.

same did citroen.

[AnttiL]

same did citroen.

and every team after Audi.

[AndyRAC]

It took a while for Mitsubishi to get their act together in regards to showcasing their rally/ road cars. Here in the UK, none pf the first 5 Lancer Evo were officially imported. You had to get a 'grey import'. The 6 was the first one to be officially sold, you wonder what took them so long?

As for the VW effort, well it wasn't a surprise. One only had to look at the Audi efforts in Sportscars - they were fully committed, financially and in resources. In fact, the LMP effort was an R&D programme as opposed to marketing. If VW took the WRC programme anywhere near as seriously, (and why wouldn't they?) then everybody was in trouble, including Citroen. And their first year with the Fabia was clear evidence how committed they were.

If you want to succeed, then you have to be 'all in' - no half measures.

[dimviii]

and every team after Audi.

not every team. Remember vw at group A era? Suzuki? citroen at bx 4 tc era? Skoda?

[doubled1978]

It took a while for Mitsubishi to get their act together in regards to showcasing their rally/ road cars. Here in the UK, none pf the first 5 Lancer Evo were officially imported. You had to get a 'grey import'. The 6 was the first one to be officially sold, you wonder what took them so long?

As for the VW effort, well it wasn't a surprise. One only had to look at the Audi efforts in Sportscars - they were fully committed, financially and in resources. In fact, the LMP effort was an R&D programme as opposed to marketing. If VW took the WRC programme anywhere near as seriously, (and why wouldn't they?) then everybody was in trouble, including Citroen. And their first year with the Fabia was clear evidence how committed they were.

If you want to succeed, then you have to be 'all in' - no half measures.

That’s exactly right, Audi have probably been the best exponent of how to use motorsport activity over the last 40 years, everything they have done has had a strategic value whether it be marketing or R&D, and as you say they never mess about. The money that was being spent by the group on WEC with Audi & Porsche was said to be astronomical, and VW were rallying at that time also.
Citroen obviously did a great job when they came to WRC, spent lots of money and ended up dominating, but I always felt they didn’t appear to capitalise on it as much as they could have, perhaps living in the UK I didn’t see the best of their marketing but they didn’t do it to launch a sporty range or anything like that, in fact they seemed to almost do the opposite.

[Rally Power]

Citroen obviously did a great job when they came to WRC, spent lots of money and ended up dominating, but I always felt they didn’t appear to capitalise on it as much as they could have, perhaps living in the UK I didn’t see the best of their marketing but they didn’t do it to launch a sporty range or anything like that, in fact they seemed to almost do the opposite.

It’s fair to say that until the mid 10’s there were still sporty models in the Citroen range and some of those were even converted into low or mid budget rally cars (ZX, Saxo, C2, DS3) but after that it was a bit painful to see Citroen WRC effort getting so disconnected from their general production.

Btw, despite their revolutionary approach and the vast resources, Audi’s WRC winning path was far from the supremacy of Lancia in Gr.A days, Citroen in the 00’s or VW in the mid 10’s; still, it was more than enough to change the sport for ever.

[doubled1978]

It’s fair to say that until the mid 10’s there were still sporty models in the Citroen range and some of those were even converted into low or mid budget rally cars (ZX, Saxo, C2, DS3) but after that it was a bit painful to see Citroen WRC effort getting so disconnected from their general production.

Btw, despite their revolutionary approach and the vast resources, Audi’s WRC winning path was far from the supremacy of Lancia in Gr.A days, Citroen in the 00’s or VW in the mid 10’s; still, it was more than enough to change the sport for ever.

Oh I know, Audi didn’t dominate WRC in the way others have subsequently done, but the programme probably did more for the company than those of Lancia, Citroen or VW.
Lancia is actually one of the great shames of the auto industry, a legendary brand with such a rich history particularly in WRC that has withered to nothing....

[AnttiL]

Audi dominated the rallies when they had 4WD and others didn't, but the cars were too unreliable (and hard to service in the African rallies). Right when other teams came out with 4WD cars, Audi started to fall behind.

[Rallyper]

Audi dominated the rallies when they had 4WD and others didn't, but the cars were too unreliable (and hard to service in the African rallies). Right when other teams came out with 4WD cars, Audi started to fall behind.

When other teams came around they had specially built bodyshells, while Audi was built from standard bodyshell, at least from the beginning. That was Group B and ended up in 86´faster than one could say safety...

[AnttiL]

Yes. However, it's a shame we got to see so little of the Sport Quattro S1 E2 with the big wings. It sure seemed competitive with the cars it raced against, albeit having a more traditional construction.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

all of these, Citroen did for a decade.Nothing new.Plenty of money,proffesionalism,cars fast out of the box,dominating etc

If Citroen were so great for so long that makes what VW did to them all the more impressive.

[AnttiL]

If Citroen were so great for so long that makes what VW did to them all the more impressive.

It helped that certain a Citroen driver quit his career.

[tommeke_B]

Also VW came in 2013 with their car, after a long development program, and learning from pro and cons from already existing cars. Citroën and Ford had their cars homologated in 2011, with limited options for modifications afterwards, while VW arrived with things they could not implement/change anymore (as they only had some jokers to spend). It's not like with the current generation where all started at the same time and have equal possibilities for further development. Next year we could see a repeat of this story when Toyota arrives with their new WRCar.

[Rally Power]

Audi dominated the rallies when they had 4WD and others didn't, but the cars were too unreliable (and hard to service in the African rallies). Right when other teams came out with 4WD cars, Audi started to fall behind.

Audi’s major problem was the board refusal to allow a radical change in the Quattro layout, by creating a more balanced central engine proto; it was considered to distant from the brand production standards. The story about the efforts of the rally staff to build the central engine Quattro can be read in the notable ‘Rally Gr.B Shrine’ site: https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/audi-quattro-mid-engine-gr-b-proto-audi-sport-quattro-rs002-gr-s-proto/

[AnttiL]

Audi’s major problem was the board refusal to allow a radical change in the Quattro layout, by creating a more balanced central engine proto; it was considered to distant from the brand production standards. The story about the efforts of the rally staff to build the central engine Quattro can be read in the notable ‘Rally Gr.B Shrine’ site: https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/audi-quattro-mid-engine-gr-b-proto-audi-sport-quattro-rs002-gr-s-proto/

Yes, and the team even secretly developed a mid-engine Quattro

[doubled1978]

Yes, and the team even secretly developed a mid-engine Quattro

I’ve read this article a while ago, and it’s a great story....the competition department and engineers knew what they needed to beat the Peugeot/Lancia, and despite knowing deep down they would almost certainly never be allowed to compete with the mid-engine car, they went and built them anyway, for themselves basically...I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the Audi board found out what they had been doing!
It’s such a shame that none of those mid engine sport quattros survived....

[AnttiL]

I’ve read this article a while ago, and it’s a great story....the competition department and engineers knew what they needed to beat the Peugeot/Lancia, and despite knowing deep down they would almost certainly never be allowed to compete with the mid-engine car, they went and built them anyway, for themselves basically...I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the Audi board found out what they had been doing!
It’s such a shame that none of those mid engine sport quattros survived....

Only the futuristic Group S proto survived and was driven in Goodwood recently by Mikkola

[AndyRAC]

It’s fair to say that until the mid 10’s there were still sporty models in the Citroen range and some of those were even converted into low or mid budget rally cars (ZX, Saxo, C2, DS3) but after that it was a bit painful to see Citroen WRC effort getting so disconnected from their general production.



What happened to Citroen, and their range of sporty cars? One of the greatest wastes of a successful motorsport programme I can recall. I remember the mid/late 90s - and Citroen did have a few decent 'performance' cars; ZX 16V, the Saxo VTS/VTR, Xsara VTS/VTR. In fact I nearly bought a Saxo VTS in 1998, but opted for a Seat Ibiza GTi.
Since then apart from the DS3 Racing, its been largely forgettable - with the 'by Loeb' cars an utter travesty. I do remember a quote from Citroen UK saying they didn't wish to use motorsport in their marketing.......(from the time when it was rumoured they might help with funding for McRae in 2004)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Here in the Uk the Saxo VTR/VTS were massively popular. I had a modified VTS and it was fantastic fun and cheap to run. I did track days with it and there were dozens of them around with many hugely modified. They were the car to have for the young enthusiast.

Citroen could've capitalised even more with Loeb's WRC success but dropped the ball with the C2 which just looked so wrong that no-one wanted one.

Nowadays they are heavily promoting the comfort and relaxed drive of their cars. I dont know how a WRC C3 ever got funding at all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Let's do a comparison table

Number of events - now 14, then you could only count 7 best from 12-13.
Length of an event - now 300-350 km, then 500-1000 km (and then the African rallies were something else)
Number of tyres allowed - now 32 per rally per car, in two compounds - back then you could change all tyres after every stage, in unlimited types and compounds.
Number of services - roughly two hours per day, back then a quick service between every stage
Type of service - now persistent service park with lots of buildings that take days to put up and tear down, back then the service vans ran after the rally cars
Recce length - now 2 days, back then unlimited, typically several weeks
Testing days - now basically one day per driver per rally, back then teams had dedicated test drivers doing long test periods and tyres had to be tested separately
Limited parts - Only three engines per season is now allowed - back then no limits.

the list goes on...

Fascinating interview with Derek Dauncey of Mitsubishi on the Safari Rally in 1996. Amazing in every way compared to modern WRC.

(Plus the Hong-Kong - Beijing Rally and eating rat in their Wuhan hotel !!)

https://www.dirtfish.com/archive/podcast-secrets-of-mitsubishis-wrc-heyday

[AnttiL]

Fascinating interview with Derek Dauncey of Mitsubishi on the Safari Rally in 1996. Amazing in every way compared to modern WRC.

(Plus the Hong-Kong - Beijing Rally and eating rat in their Wuhan hotel !!)

https://www.dirtfish.com/archive/podcast-secrets-of-mitsubishis-wrc-heyday

I would estimate the Safari budget in those days was as much as a full WRC season today with separately built cars, helicopters, testing for many months on location, specialist drivers, chase cars, 3000 km route etc. And some people still think Safari should have been run like that this year!

[Berke]

Didn't see that coming! https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2020/wrc/carlos-sainz-crowned-the-greatest-driver/

[dimviii]

Official Motor Sport World Ke
@MotorsportWKe
·
26m
Yoshio Fujimoto 1995 Safari Winner. Spent five months in Kenya focused only on winning the Safari.He drove the 3000km-long course eight times & memorized it by heart. Rolled the car and still somehow managed to win the event.Luck strikes when you least expect it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXUgx3JXYAAR8DN?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXUgxcPWoAEMW9a?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXUgwzCXQAE6Cqi?format=jpg&name=medium

[dimviii]

https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/2020/05/rally-safari-machete-coleccion-goodwood-1.jpg

The World Rally Championship is full of anecdotes. Many of them remain practically in the memory of a few who were able to experience them from within, and others, fortunately, end up coming to light over the years. In the middle of the YouTube and information through the networks era, we find a perfect platform for the dissemination of the same to the general public and media such as the Goodwood channel have become an unmissable source to know everything these kinds of details. Among them, we can see things as curious as the one we bring you today: Why did the Lancia Delta Integrale carry a machete when they competed in the nineties?

The story comes from the hand of Stefano Macaluso and his private collection. In the middle of more rural Torino there are facilities where up to 35 competition cars can be found, including the Ligier JS11 with which Jaques Laffite competed, a Ferrari F40, a Lancia 037, an Audi Quattro Gr.4, a Lancia LC1, a Fiat X1 / 9, and even one of the Toyota Celica GT-Four Gr.A used by Carlos Sainz and Luis Moya, decorated in this case with the same image with which the Spanish duo was crowned World Champions for the first time in Great Britain, but if we look at the registration records it would be the one used by the couple in New Zealand.

Although now the collection has passed into Stefano's hands, the secret for so many jewels to be gathered is that its original owner was none other than Gino Macaluso, the former official Abarth / FIAT pilot, European Rally Champion in 1972, which would later also go to management positions within the ACI, later becoming president of the Italian Federation. He even formed his own team already in the 21st century within the JWRC, which explains why the unmistakable Fiat Punto Rally S1600 used by Andrea Dallavilla is among the collection.

The story of the machetes in the Safari Rally:

However, among the most curious things within the collection you can find a Lancia Delta Integrale with Safari specifications that was used by Juha Kankkunen and Juha Piironen to finish second in the 1992 edition. The car, which was purchased directly from Lancia it had to be restored, changing the roof for a new one since the original unit used by the four-time World Champion had overturned during the African test, so Macaluso asked to replace the original upper part, which remains in one place from the family workshop as a souvenir.

The most anecdotal is inside, since as we all know, competing in the Safari Rally was an adventure completely unrelated to the development of the rest of the World Cup. Pilots and co-pilots could compete in a jersey, without the top of the suit being fireproof due to the high temperatures that occurred within the cabin. In the sky they were accompanied by a helicopter that warned them of possible encounters with wildlife, something that was trained before competing so that there was perfect communication between the pilots and the team spotter that watched them from the air along with the experienced pilots who had to avoid frightening the animal and that it gets further into the section. All this was special, including the equipment, reinforcements, additional lights, protection tubes, snorkel for admission and other elements that were used exceptionally to run on the Safari.

Among all those extra kilos we sometimes found completely bizarre pieces when we talked about a rally car, and among them the machete that stars in this article, after all, a tool that could be used to cut small bushes or vegetation in case highway exit. We must remember that it was very difficult to find fans in the Safari, so on many occasions the competitors had to wait a long time in case they got stuck at some point, so it could also serve as protection against attacks by wild animals at worst of the cases. A few years earlier, Pat Moss, sister of Sir Stirling Moss and rally driver, also recognized that she had a panga in her car as a deterrent to possible thefts from local gangs and that on some occasions she came to fear seeing shiny things wielded by some people from the villages that finally turned out to be only pieces of aluminum ripped from other cars that they had also abandoned.

Undoubtedly, it becomes another of that characteristic equipment that can only be found in certain specific appointments, such as the famous snow shovels that they carry in Sweden to dig when they get caught in the snow or the caps to close the air flow in appointments with very low temperatures, such as the Scandinavian rally itself or in Wales.
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/gt3-gte-futuro-dtm-2021/

[dimviii]

hahaha

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXgER4GWkAE5EZr?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXgES7mWoAAtp9c?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXfxnpaWAAAVCxc?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXfxnpIWoAA1ZVm?format=jpg&name=small

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXg68nEWoAIoum1?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXg69EIXYAQgljN?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXg68QVXkAE2dok?format=jpg&name=small

[Norm75]

Haha, the bottom one Andrea who . . . Agassi?

[Zeakiwi2]

Motorsport New Zealand - HQ contretemps
https://www.velocitynews.co.nz/baker-barks-back/

[Mk2 RS2000]

Motorsport New Zealand - HQ contretemps
https://www.velocitynews.co.nz/baker-barks-back/

Just remember that when you are poking the fire that you don't grab the hot end of the poker

[AnttiL]

Some reading for the weekend, first half of my Tour de Corse route history http://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/05/15/wrc-history-tour-de-corse-routes-1973-1995/

[AnttiL]

Some reading for the weekend, first half of my Tour de Corse route history http://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/05/15/wrc-history-tour-de-corse-routes-1973-1995/

and second half http://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/05/22/wrc-history-tour-de-corse-routes-1996-2019/

[SubaruNorway]

I made a Geoguessr map since we can't get out on the stages. Try and guess the WRC stages, the closer you get the more points and you have and 2min in each location. If you think It's fun i might post some more :)

https://www.geoguessr.com/challenge/jbpddNJlPr8RrE1q

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Chris Ingram's favourite road-trip - meeting a knife-weilding nutter on the way to a rally in 2013 !

https://detour-roadtrips.com/home/chris-ingram-european-rally-champion

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Not rally-related except hisorically... Mitsubishi pull out of the UK.

https://www.am-online.com/amp/news/manufacturer/2020/07/27/mitsubishi-motors-in-the-uk-shares-unexpected-market-withdrawal-plan-with-dealers

[pantealex]

Not rally-related except hisorically... Mitsubishi pull out of the UK.

https://www.am-online.com/amp/news/manufacturer/2020/07/27/mitsubishi-motors-in-the-uk-shares-unexpected-market-withdrawal-plan-with-dealers

Part of that Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi sharing world markets. Shame

[the sniper]

Not rally-related except hisorically... Mitsubishi pull out of the UK.

https://www.am-online.com/amp/news/manufacturer/2020/07/27/mitsubishi-motors-in-the-uk-shares-unexpected-market-withdrawal-plan-with-dealers


Wow, a small player here for a long time now, but it'll be odd not to see them at all. While I appreciate we're talking from a biased position, I really think both Mitsubishi and Subaru have really suffered, far more than they could have imagined, from leaving rallying. Rallying might not be that big anymore, but they really have left the public consciousness almost completely, in the UK at least. Maybe we under appreciate it, but Rallying and the 'halo models' they produced for these companies really did have a value that shouldn't have been thrown away. For smaller players, I think rallying really does work effectively as a marketing tool. If Ford or Toyota left, the impact would probably be indiscernible in their sales figures due to their size, but I believe the smaller manufacturers allow you to see its impact.

Good news for Isuzu and Toyota dealers in rural areas!

[AndyRAC]

It took until the Evo 6 for Mitsubishi UK (Colt Cars) to officially import the car into the UK; before that, most of the Lancer Evos seen in forest car parks were 'grey imports'. And I remember a story told in MNews (by Jerry Williams, I think); it was about major party/event taking place at the same weekend, as the RAC Rally; this was mid/late 90s. All the big hitters/main dealers were at the party, as opposed to being at the WRC event. The main point being they hadn't really got behind the WRC effort at that time.

[Zeakiwi2]

Shame Mitsubishi has pulled out of Europe - not too far into the future it is likely to give Mitsubishi the excuse to pull out of all right hand drive markets with non-JDM models, (if further cost cutting is required) as the right hand vehicle models have their own development costs in addition to left hand drive vehicles. I guess that Evo eleven is not going to happen.

[skarderud]

Nissan also have problems, i don't know how the salesfigures for Mitsubishi is in Europe, but in Norway they sell alot of the outlander PHEV , and a small electric one, some colts, but then i really don't know about other modells.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

I really think both Mitsubishi and Subaru have really suffered, far more than they could have imagined, from leaving rallying.

And Lancia, which become irrelevant after quitting the sport.

[NickRally]

And Lancia, which become irrelevant after quitting the sport.

Though if I am not mistaken that was driven by internal Fiat politics favouring Alfa Romeo, nevertheless a valid point and the first brand that I thought about when I read about Mitsubishi exiting the UK market, though obviously in terms of relative quality of product at the time of market exit is incomparable, in favour of Mitsubishi that is (and this is coming from a Lancia fan as you know). Interestingly Lancia still enjoys some very loyal following in Italy.

[Rally Power]

Though if I am not mistaken that was driven by internal Fiat politics favouring Alfa Romeo, nevertheless a valid point and the first brand that I thought about when I read about Mitsubishi exiting the UK market, though obviously in terms of relative quality of product at the time of market exit is incomparable, in favour of Mitsubishi that is (and this is coming from a Lancia fan as you know). Interestingly Lancia still enjoys some very loyal following in Italy.

Yep, at the time it was told that the late Giorgio Pianta was highly influential on Abarth’s move to racing, througth Alfa Romeo. Their DTM program was far from the previous WRC success and despite a continuous relauching effort, Alfa keeps being a brand in crisis; ironically, even selling a single model (the Ypsilon) on a sole market (Italy), Lancia still manages to beat Alfa sales in Europe... https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2019-full-year-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-and-brands/

[Franky]

Isn't Lancia Ypsilon heavily used by the rental companies?

[pantealex]

Isn't Lancia Ypsilon heavily used by the rental companies?

It´s only model which Lancia produces and it´s from 2011

and officially only sold in Italy.

[Zeakiwi2]

Subaru has continued rallying in the USA and their sales there were increasing since 2008 (When the wrc program stopped) until this year's problems.
Subaru is niche with around 1 million car production capacity.

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/subaru-corporation-us-sales-figures/

Europe is a small sales area for Subaru, compared to the usa. https://carsalesbase.com/europe-subaru/#:~:text=Subaru%20sales%20in%20Europe%20have,0%2C2 3%25%20in%202017.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Funny I've been watching a lot of YT video's lately on performance car driving and noticed so many of the American ones used Subaru Impreza's.

They are still highly respected over there.

[Rally Power]

Isn't Lancia Ypsilon heavily used by the rental companies?

The 500 or the Panda are even more and they’re also best-sellers among Italian private costumeurs.

The point is that Fiat wasted Lancia’s motorsport heritage in the most brainless possible way; rally and racing were vital to promote Fiat group brands but steadily all their motorsport programs were shut down (there’s only the small 124 Rally operation left) and Abarth, surely one the most vibrant racing department of the world on its golden times, was turned into a tuning company. Only Mitsubishi has done worst; they closed Ralliart in 2010 and completely pull out from motorsport a couple of years later.



Subaru has continued rallying in the USA and their sales there were increasing since 2008 (When the wrc program stopped) until this year's problems.Subaru is niche with around 1 million car production capacity. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/subaru-corporation-us-sales-figures/
Europe is a small sales area for Subaru, compared to the usa. https://carsalesbase.com/europe-subaru/#:~:text=Subaru%20sales%20in%20Europe%20have,0%2C2 3%25%20in%202017.

I had no clue that Subaru sells 7 times more in the US than in Japan! Sadly the European market means very little to them (even Australia is better) but it’s great to see that Sti is still alive and rockin. Maybe a US WRC round is what Subaru’s board really needs to decide re-entering the series.

[cali]

The 500 or the Panda are even more and they’re also best-sellers among Italian private costumeurs.

The point is that Fiat wasted Lancia’s motorsport heritage in the most brainless possible way; rally and racing were vital to promote Fiat group brands but steadily all their motorsport programs were shut down (there’s only the small 124 Rally operation left) and Abarth, surely one the most vibrant racing department of the world on its golden times, was turned into a tuning company. Only Mitsubishi has done worst; they closed Ralliart in 2010 and completely pull out from motorsport a couple of years later.




I had no clue that Subaru sells 7 times more in the US than in Japan! Sadly the European market means very little to them (even Australia is better) but it’s great to see that Sti is still alive and rockin. Maybe a US WRC round is what Subaru’s board really needs to decide re-entering the series.In all honesty Mitsubishi financially did not do well even during the rallying days and as far as I know have struggled for decades.

Otherwise I completely agree

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Gregor-y]

I had no clue that Subaru sells 7 times more in the US than in Japan! Sadly the European market means very little to them (even Australia is better) but it’s great to see that Sti is still alive and rockin. Maybe a US WRC round is what Subaru’s board really needs to decide re-entering the series.

The performance crowd is small but dedicated even if the car's getting larger and heavier. Old ones are plentiful and the cheapest way to get a 4WD rally car with lots of parts availability. Luckily Subaru's US arm keeps promoting it. Canada's official team is gone but the distributors still provide support and contingency money.

I'm sure Dirtfish has great dreams of getting a US WRC round, probably on the west coast near their headquarters, but everything's a bit of a mess here at the moment. There are events still happening but I generally don't like hot weather let alone a surging pandemic. Hopefully the fall will be better.

[Rally Power]

In all honesty Mitsubishi financially did not do well even during the rallying days and as far as I know have struggled for decades.


Yep, apparently as result of years of poor management (ironically now it’s Nissan who’s showing a chaotic leadership).
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/05/19/business/corporate-business/mitsubishi-motors-scandal-accident-waiting-happen/

[AnttiL]

I'm asking here as well:

When was the first time a WRC stage had a donut marked in the road book?

So far I've found these:

2014 Catalunya SS1 Barcelona - first fully artificial donut
2012 Catalunya SS13 Riudecanyes - first roundabout donut on a non-super-special stage (4 km from the start)
2011 Mexico SS1 Guanajuato Street Stage - first roundabout donut on an SSS

Any earlier examples? Many people bring up Panizzi in Catalunya 2002 but it was not marked in the route. The Portugal Estoril donuts way back in the 80's and 70's meanwhile were just a show event outside competition after the rally had ended.

[dimviii]

https://www.facebook.com/HyundaiWiaEurope

[dimviii]

Rallying in Africa
@RallyinAfrika
@peugeotsport
's assitance car at 1986 @wrcsafarirally

The driver Pierre Pagani was driving a 205 T16 overloaded of spare parts inboard and on roof, with a flying mechanic
This car was not competitng in race. But #SafariRally was run on open roads and this kind of fancy was OK

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eeu0WXaX0AEzl7q?format=jpg&name=small

[dimviii]

Colin McRae's biggest WRC decision

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/151226/autosport-70-colin-mcrae-biggest-wrc-decision

[dimviii]

Μalcolm onboard with escort mk2
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1298696176179568643

[dimviii]

Loebs black/gold ds3 from Alsace sold for 730.000 euro
https://www.estrepublicain.fr/culture-loisirs/2020/09/20/la-citroen-ds-3-wrc-de-loeb-reine-des-encheres

[Humber]

Further distractions for management or operations base widening? Hyundai pure - E-TCR car unveiling with Farfus. (experience & knowledge acquistion -toyota electric in the Le Mans vs Hyundai electric in the eTCR)

https://youtu.be/V3XwWey0UEk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Goodwood SpeedWeek starts tonight with runs on their rally stages. There will be coverage on their website www.goodwood.com and YouTube.

Evans, Latvala and Meeke will all be driving the Yaris GR4 as Zero-Car.

https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-coverage/goodwood-speedweek/2020/8/super-special-competition-coming-to-speedweek/

https://dirtfish.com/rally/rhys-yates-dual-livery-fiesta-stars-at-goodwood-speedweek/

[the sniper]

Shame it's not the WRC test car... One more run wouldn't have hurt!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Goodwood SpeedWeek is go! The GR Yaris caused a stir on the rally stage last night with @ElfynEvans and @JariMattiWRC driving. Stay tuned for more #GWSpeedWeek action over the weekend.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkcMe1-WkAEqyac?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkcMfbCW0AAxQQb?format=jpg&name=medium

[pantealex]

I did see 5 different Yaris GR4 during Rally Sweden, over half year ago...

Are those 1st ones in GB ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I did see 5 different Yaris GR4 during Rally Sweden, over half year ago...

Are those 1st ones in GB ?

Possibly... maybe that's why they have Meeke, Latvala and Evans promoting them.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekdb3wDXIAARf_A?format=jpg&name=large

[Rallyper]

What a BIG frontscoop!!!

[the sniper]

Are those 1st ones in GB ?

There's been one left had drive one touring Toyota showrooms across GB since July, IIRC.

[AnttiL]

What was the true golden era of rallying?

How many teams participated full-time or part-time?

Before 1995 I've counted a team having done a full season when they have started in 7-8 rallies (depending on how many rallies you could count to your score that year).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ek6hpQeWAAYg6Ve?format=jpg&name=medium

Competitiveness can be measured by looking at how many of the teams managed to win a rally, finish on the podium or neither?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ek6hpQdXgAIEfjx?format=jpg&name=medium

I have counted only one team per brand so the likes of Stobart do not count.

Also, I only counted the top class entries so for example Volkswagen in 1986-1987 doesn't count in.

Some one-offs were also left off but for example in 1985 it was difficult to leave out Renault who won their only start.

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elfg3iTW0AYBJnJ?format=jpg&name=medium

[KiwiWRCfan]

Belgium themed bars are always good place to drown your sorrows

[djip]

What was the true golden era of rallying? How many teams participated full-time or part-time?

Before 1995 I've counted a team having done a full season when they have started in 7-8 rallies (depending on how many rallies you could count to your score that year).

Also, I only counted the top class entries so for example Volkswagen in 1986-1987 doesn't count in.

Some one-offs were also left off but for example in 1985 it was difficult to leave out Renault who won their only start.

Nice work AntilL

Ideally you would add a 3rd bucket about works teams competing in the second tier category (Rallye2, Super2000, F2, Gp.A when Gp.B was the top class, etc ...). Although they do not provide competition for wins, not oinly do they bring the unsual podium (or win) but also some works seats fro drivers. I am so depressed to day that the last step is near impossible for a young gun (if not backed from youth "a la RedBull"or with deep pockets (buying a seat)

Similarly I would not leave the one-offs since these teams usually competed in other well supported series (IRC, Asai-Pacific in its heyday, ...)

And finally I would go all the way back to the 70's, interestingly you had many works team but probably none was doing more than 5-6 events per year (true to say that during this era, they were a lot of non championship events with better entry list than the WRC/ERC.

If you are sheltered in place as we now are (again) here, this is a good way to. use your week-end ;-)

[dimviii]

The story of how Sébastien Loeb could have been a Subaru driver in the WRC

However, with the arrival of Loeb to the Bahrain Raid Xtreme and Prodrive, it has come to light that the relationship between David Richards and Sébastien Loeb goes back a long way, specifically from Seb's first steps in the WRC, when the British… He tried to sign him for Subaru! At that time, the person in charge of the structure based in Banbury was the one who decided the steps of the signing of the stars in the World Cup, so his attempt to sign him was a risky bet in search of a replacement for a Richard Burns that he would leave the team's discipline at the end of that year.


From no to Subaru to the story of a spite:

The structure lost the World Champion, who had a contract signed with Peugeot for 2002, while Petter Solberg was still in training and a Markko Martin that had a year full of mishaps and that would end up leaving for Ford to complete the team with Carlos Sainz and Colin McRae. Loeb decided to decline the appetizing offer to sign for Subaru full-time and form a structure with what would be his great rival for the 2003 title, opting to remain at Citroën and do a part-time program at the World Championship in 2002.

Subaru chose at the time to sign Tommi Mäkinen after Mitsubishi's disastrous move to WRC regulation. On France TV Loeb was asked if he thought precisely that this refusal to sign for Subaru could have influenced Subaru's claim in the 2002 Monte-Carlo against Loeb and the Citroën team. In that edition, the sports commissioners of the event applied a two-minute penalty for changing tires in an assist (Service G of only 10 minutes) in which it was not allowed.

loeb-citroen-wrc-2002-1

His team had changed tires before the Xsara WRC made the short drive to the Parc Fermé in Monaco so they had not gained any kind of competitive advantage. However, those two minutes made Loeb lose the lead, with a penalty that remained in the air due to the possible appeal of the team, believing that it was too severe a punishment for an error that Guy Frequelin himself admitted for a team that he had practically just made it to the championship.

Finally, the appeal would be withdrawn on Monday to "preserve the good relations between Citroën and the FIA" and Tommi Mäkinen took the Monte-Carlo victory in 2002 ahead of a brilliant Sébastien Loeb who had to wait for Germany that same year to savor his first World Cup triumph. Precisely Loeb has pointed out that the insistence to punish that mistake was more on the part of the Finnish pilot than of the one who is now his boss, David Richards.

Ford and Volkswagen also tried to sign him:

loeb-race-champions-2008-ford-focus-wrc

It was not the only time that history could have turned upside down, since after Citroën's decision not to include him in the team's plans for 2019 after the fall of Abu Dhabi as a "main sponsor", Malcolm Wilson tried a second time to sign Loeb, again with the same result he obtained in 2005, when even Sébastien did a test at the wheel of the Ford Focus RS WRC in the summer of that same year in the forest of Greystoke, very close to the headquarters of the M- team. Sport in Cumbria. History is already written and Loeb decided again for Citroën, even if this meant racing in 2006 under the colors of the private Kronos Racing structure. It would be nice to know what was the intrahistory of his possible signing for Volkswagen at the end of 2011

https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/sebastien-loeb-piloto-subaru-wrc/

[AnttiL]

Last year I created an advent calendar of 24 Rally Finland onboard videos making up an imaginary but possible route. This year I do the same for RAC/Wales Rally GB, and today we already start with the shakedown at Clocaenog. Follow this hashtag for a daily video!

https://twitter.com/hashtag/itgetsfasternowadventcalendar

[KiwiWRCfan]

Hopefully the bar is well stocked for the next week. Plenty of discussion on 2020 crystal ball predictions needed next week.

[AnttiL]

This year Neuville was the stage win king, but finished only 4th in the points

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoknR2FWEAIZ5l2?format=png&name=900x900

[mknight]

Tanak vs Neuville went from
73 vs 42
to
12 vs 28

One other troll number, average stage wins per rally:
Tanak 2020: 12/7=1,71
Mikkelsen 2019: 18/10= 1,8

[EstWRC]

so bring Mikkelsen back?


out of those 7 rallies Tänak could compete for stage wins only on 4 rallies

[dimviii]

so bring Mikkelsen back?


not just bring him back,but to replace with Tanak.

[Sulland]

so bring Mikkelsen back?s

Mikkelsen dont want to drive the current Hyundai. He has tried for a long time to get him and the i20 to become one. He is not able to. So not a good marriage. :-)

[mknight]

so bring Mikkelsen back?

out of those 7 rallies Tänak could compete for stage wins only on 4 rallies



Don't be salty. Nobody is saying that. You just spend some time digging out various Tanak-specific statistics to get your mood up. So here you have a reasonably ridiculous statistic to counter. (note what thread this is placed in)

As to the number of stage wins there are lots of small things here and there that affect it and clearly for Tanak with only 7 rallies this year the number is less statistically stable.
The only conclusion is that he is not as fast as with Toyota.

[cali]

These mknight stats are lopsided. Tänak did not have the best season but he was really consistent scorer outside of his 3 DNF's and always fighting for podiums/wins which cannot be said about Mikkelsen. But we learned that the i20 is really a handful to drive.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Tarmop]

Umh...then again, we learnt that after 6 events, scoring zero from a crash on one and loosing a lot due to technical problems on two, the i20s driven by Neuville and Tänak were both in title contention going into round seven.

[EstWRC]

haha https://twitter.com/imitaattori1981/status/1337829600051810306?s=20

[KiwiWRCfan]

Prodrive have put a post on Facebook about restoration of Petter Solberg's Rally Japan 2004 car. Among the comments is a very interesting post by Ole Lundefaret, well worth reading.

[mknight]

Prodrive have put a post on Facebook about restoration of Petter Solberg's Rally Japan 2004 car. Among the comments is a very interesting post by Ole Lundefaret, well worth reading.

Thanks, nice read.

Find it a bit interesting that Prodrive is now using money on this given how the relationship ended in 2008-2009.

[Rallyper]

Prodrive have put a post on Facebook about restoration of Petter Solberg's Rally Japan 2004 car. Among the comments is a very interesting post by Ole Lundefaret, well worth reading.

So what´s he saying? Have no FB.

[AnttiL]

https://www.facebook.com/prodriveofficial/posts/4229619167068024?comment_id=4229814280381846

It's a public post but you need to go through the dozens of comments to find it


Petter was terrified. White as ash. Shaking. My brother, Petter and me was in his Sauna at his farm in Spydeberg. Norway. He had just gotten home from Germany, were he the biggest impact, in a series of impacts, netted 27 G, according to the onboard telemetry. He was 110% sure his codriver Phill Mills had died in the violence. When he had looked over towards the codriver seat the roof was smashed downwards were the co-drivers head was supposed to be. He didn't hear Phil. He didn't see Phil. Panic.
We sat in the sauna talking of this dreadful day when that particular chassis met it's fate in a hopeless battle versus the mighty hinckelsteins of Rally Deutchland.
"I just have to win it! It's my most important rally. Win it for Japan. For Subaru!"
My brother and me looked at each other in disbelief. Petter was not at his mental peak. He was somewhere between shock and post traumatic stress disorder. And yet the only thing he was talking about was winning Rally Japan.
"I need to win it for Subaru, Pekka (My brother) can you help me?!?"
We talked a lot on this sunny day in Spydeberg.
Pernilla and Oliver was there too.
Oliver playing in a plastic pedal car, going over a small decline on the lawn, rolling almost as dramatically as his father. Plastic parts scattered everywhere. Getting up. Dusting of. And Petter saying:
"That's his first roll!"
The days that followed where quite hectic, especially for Petter and my brother. And the Prodrive engineers that had to prepare this chassis, on top of Petters constant calls about diff settings, squat, and so much more.
My brother had a support made for Petters thumb, which had been sprained. And they trained together. Walked together. And talked together.
Petters complexion came back. His smile came back. But he was also extremely anxious before he headed of to Japan.
We followed the rally on television.
His World Champion title from 2003 had ensured that the largest commercial Norwegian TV channel had bought the broadcasting rights.
We wondered if he even would be able to start. If he would go off in the first stage in share fright. As he was fragile as an autumn leaf. This after all, hadn't been a normal crash by any standards.
But he didn't. Go off.
He took off.
I must admit I cried when his stage times started popping in.
He had sat in the sauna with us only days prior, being sure he had lost the ability to drive.
Now he was beating Sebastien Loeb, the driver that was going to go on to be the greatest of our time, like he was in a different race.
Could it last?
Yes it did last.
He and Phil, who I don't know how mobilised the bravery to get back in a rally car so soon. Had he wore a HANS device his head would have been held up towards the crashing roof, and he would not have survived.
And now both of them reached the finish line of the last stage as overall winners of Rally Japan in 2004.
And they went on to win two more rallies on the trot.
The combination of Petter Solberg, Phill Mills and Prodrive was by far the fastest of 2004. Other issues should keep them away from claiming the drivers crown for a second year running.
All competitive rally cars from the WRC are a part of Motorsport history.
What makes this one special is that it isn't only history, it's also a part of a very special story.
And Prodrive has by showing it an attention to detail exclusive to them, preserved this very special motorcar, so both the history and story will live on, and ride on, for many years to come. Wow.

[dimviii]

Thanks, nice read.

Find it a bit interesting that Prodrive is now using money on this given how the relationship ended in 2008-2009.

its not for him,they just restored a car that can possibly sold at future.And at this condition,it will not be cheap.

[EstWRC]

I understand that autosport is basically formula 1 related magazine and about also other circuit racing.

But to put Neuville ahead of Evans in the ratings?

https://www.autosport.com/top-50-drivers-of-2020

[tronstein]

Hi everyone. I'm very new to motorsports in general. I've got a casual interest in Formula 1 and I've always loved seeing rally clips, so I decided to learn a little more about rallying and WRC. I knew nothing about the service aspect of the sport and it's been really interesting to watch videos of the service teams doing what they do best.

Random question though. I noticed that a ton of the service technicians wear Salomon shoes. Like enough to make it more than a coincidence. Does anyone know why this is? Does Salomon sponsor a lot of the teams or WRC in general? Are they renowned for their grip on the service tarps?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Christmas holiday coming, so here's a listen for rally and M-Sport fans - a recent podcast interview with Matt Wilson on his career and time in and around the team:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4pKfaEb8TLBSrWjyVWssgb?si=kuBeONFRQqGe_kjCIVYWig

[Rallyper]

we know Finland produce a lot af talents in motorsport, but this guy, only age of 12 won some world-wide guitar competition. Absolutely brilliant!

Just watch!

https://www.hbl.fi/artikel/video-14-arig-finlandare-ar-varldens-basta-unga-gitarrist-kolla-in-juho-ranta-maunus-vinnarsolo/

[KiwiWRCfan]

Is it possible to upgrade an old crystal ball to be Covid capable ?
Can anyone recommend a supplier of new Covid capable crystal balls ?
Should 2021 Crystal ball predictions be limited to one prediction per person related to Covid event cancellations/changes ?

[dimviii]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/

[TypeR]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/

:arrows::|

[Franky]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/

Based on pure logic that thing is moving fast but based on the sensation of seeing it, it feels like something rather slow. If WRC one day will switch to electricity, would it be possible that someone else comes out with a competing series that uses screaming engines? Obviously that would rule out manufacturers, but if you can get enough media attention and eye balls, you have the chance of attracting money and as we all know, money makes the wheels turn. Just a stupid thought

[Steve Boyd]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/
Neither do I, but I started watching Gp1, 2, 3 & 4 cars so those are the cars I like the sound of. I don't like the sound of turbo cars popping banging and farting but people who started watching in the GpA & WRC eras like the sound of them. If electric cars beome the norm then the new generation will think that's what rally cars are supposed to sound like.

[Morte66]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/

Ha. I normally have sound disabled on Facebook, I didn't realise what you were getting at until I saw the replies here.

[Franky]

If electric cars beome the norm then the new generation will think that's what rally cars are supposed to sound like.

Maybe one day, but it will take a long time.

Decided to check the cumulative viewership for Formula 1 and Formula E. Found numbers for the F1 2019 season and Formula E season 5 (start 2018 December). Formula E had 411 million cumulative viewers and there were 13 races. Formula 1 had 1,922 billion cumulative viewers and there were 21 races on calendar. Per race, the numbers are 91,52 million for F1 and 31,62 million for Formula E.

I think there's no other motorsport more behind the paywall than F1, so in that regard Formula E has an advantage.

And if someone is wondering about WRC viewership, then in 2019 it was about 850 million.

[mknight]

I would actually say those numbers are unexpectedly high for Formula E. A "new" series with comparatively no history, no mainstream (= main news) coverage and same cars for everyone (afaik, haven't been following) and not being the "ultimate" fastest car like F1.

As to the vid:

- without sound it looks like normal R5 vid, a bit slow (looks very slippery though)
- until like 6s in the sound is very much like a normal R5 too
- up to like 12s and out of the corner the sound is different but ok, after that it's too quiet

- it could use some sound improvement at longer distance so that spectators can follow what the driver is doing (on throttle, on brakes etc..) and for spectator safety, this has been mentioned before whether the cars should have some sound generator that "indicates" throttle.

[Franky]

I would actually say those numbers are unexpectedly high for Formula E. A "new" series with comparatively no history, no mainstream (= main news) coverage and same cars for everyone (afaik, haven't been following) and not being the "ultimate" fastest car like F1.

Agree that the numbers are surprisingly high, but in some article while looking for those numbers, it was said the majority of their followers are younger than 35 - "the ABB FIA Formula E Championship for its fifth season in 2018-19, the series claims 72 percent of its followers on social channels are under the age of 35."

Never really watched FE because it seemed dull (I know there's plenty of action in there) but they seem to be very strong online. It could play a major role nowadays. And FE live broadcasts their sessions on Youtube. Of course countries where the rights are sold, it's not possible to watch it.

Another thing is that the races happen in big cities (e.g. the next season - Rome, Paris, Seoul, Berlin, New York, London, Sanya, Mexico City, Santiago), so they affect bigger populations.


- it could use some sound improvement at longer distance so that spectators can follow what the driver is doing (on throttle, on brakes etc..) and for spectator safety, this has been mentioned before whether the cars should have some sound generator that "indicates" throttle.

For spectator safety there's a very cheap solution from the past, cow bells.

[Lancia Stratos]

Lol at Colin Clark's WRC hits and misses in Motorsport News this week.

The guy has an ego the size of Hyundai's budget but the knowledge the size of M-Sport's budget.......

[cali]

Lol at Colin Clark's WRC hits and misses in Motorsport News this week.

The guy has an ego the size of Hyundai's budget but the knowledge the size of M-Sport's budget.......Please don't insult M-Sport ;)

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Francis44]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/

Interesting concept technically but definitely not interesting to see and much less to ear.

Rally, to survive, has to follow alternative fuels as power sources, much like F1 is doing starting from 2025.

[Mirek]

do you like it? I dont.
https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/863061301106579/

Allegedly this car has 680 Hp combined power from two motors (its power train is developed for rallycross). We have to take into account that a real electric rally car would certainly have a limited power just like all rally classes, i.e. the real one would be slower and even more dull.

Now I'm very curious how the Austrians will ballance the rules to have a fair competition with normal Rally2...

[mknight]

Allegedly this car has 680 Hp combined power from two motors (its power train is developed for rallycross). We have to take into account that a real electric rally car would certainly have a limited power just like all rally classes, i.e. the real one would be slower and even more dull.

Now I'm very curious how the Austrians will ballance the rules to have a fair competition with normal Rally2...

Nope, 2x 125 kW is what I read.

[Mirek]

Nope, 2x 125 kW is what I read.

Sorry, You are right.

[Rally Power]

Rally, to survive, has to follow alternative fuels as power sources, much like F1 is doing starting from 2025.

Fingers crossed, but ICEs future can be at risk with the new Euro 7 emissions standards, which will be voted at the end of the year by EU’s parliament. Some say they will be so severe that manus won’t be able to keep ICEs. That wouldn’t affect F1 bubble, but it’d probably have a huge impact on Rally, as the sport is deeply linked to manus production.

Btw, only a few bosses in the industry are brave enough to publicly criticise EVs extreme political push; hats off to Mr. Toyoda for being one of them: https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665

[Francis44]

Fingers crossed, but ICEs future can be at risk with the new Euro 7 emissions standards, which will be voted at the end of the year by EU’s parliament. Some say they will be so severe that manus won’t be able to keep ICEs. That wouldn’t affect F1 bubble, but it’d probably have a huge impact on Rally, as the sport is deeply linked to manus production.

Btw, only a few bosses in the industry are brave enough to publicly criticise EVs extreme political push; hats off to Mr. Toyoda for being one of them: https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665

Indeed, I believe that this exact pressure will push manus to develop other technologies. Electric is here to stay obviously, but I strongly feel we will see other surprising options in the next 10 years.

F1 is keeping very quiet (well as quiet as they can) about this, but everyone in the paddock feels very strongly that full EV formula cars are not viable nor interesting to the championship.

Time will tell.

[djip]

Fingers crossed, but ICEs future can be at risk with the new Euro 7 emissions standards, which will be voted at the end of the year by EU’s parliament. Some say they will be so severe that manus won’t be able to keep ICEs. That wouldn’t affect F1 bubble, but it’d probably have a huge impact on Rally, as the sport is deeply linked to manus production.

Btw, only a few bosses in the industry are brave enough to publicly criticise EVs extreme political push; hats off to Mr. Toyoda for being one of them: https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665

You are correct - Rallying has missed a golden opportunity to become relevant again. Their switch to Hybrid has been very late, they had an opportunity to make it way more "extreme" and missed it. Think about full EV on liaisons / ICE on stages (including recharging for the next liaison etc ...), maybe even full EV with fast charging at stages end. I understand the engineering challenge (added battery weight, battery life, ...), I understand it may not look anymore like the rallying that we know (which is already a far cry from the one that i grew up with in the 70's) - but if you believe the market value of rallying is to relate to manus production using the same roads as average Joe, can you imagine the PR dream by saying "you commute on these roads everyday, winter and summer - now our champions are doing the same at full speed with our EV - no problem". Wouldn't that be a true proof point for EV acceptance ? Attracting manus to the sport, instead of leaving one by one ?
Yes it will be dull for a few years (even though save from the noise, the lastest Skoda rally EV video looked OK), but how did you felt in 1987 when the GpA cars followed the uber-exciting Gp.B machines ?
Yes rallyes may have to become shorter / more compact, but isn't that already happening ?
I am not saying i would be happy for such move to happen, but i see that this may be (have been ?) the only way for Rallying to become one of the golden series as it once was.

[Rally Power]

You are correct - Rallying has missed a golden opportunity to become relevant again. Their switch to Hybrid has been very late, they had an opportunity to make it way more "extreme" and missed it. Think about full EV on liaisons / ICE on stages (including recharging for the next liaison etc ...), maybe even full EV with fast charging at stages end. I understand the engineering challenge (added battery weight, battery life, ...), I understand it may not look anymore like the rallying that we know (which is already a far cry from the one that i grew up with in the 70's) - but if you believe the market value of rallying is to relate to manus production using the same roads as average Joe, can you imagine the PR dream by saying "you commute on these roads everyday, winter and summer - now our champions are doing the same at full speed with our EV - no problem". Wouldn't that be a true proof point for EV acceptance ? Attracting manus to the sport, instead of leaving one by one ?
Yes it will be dull for a few years (even though save from the noise, the lastest Skoda rally EV video looked OK), but how did you felt in 1987 when the GpA cars followed the uber-exciting Gp.B machines ?
Yes rallyes may have to become shorter / more compact, but isn't that already happening ?
I am not saying i would be happy for such move to happen, but i see that this may be (have been ?) the only way for Rallying to become one of the golden series as it once was.

Actually I believe Hybrids are the right choice for the WRC, once battery powered EVs (BEVs) aren’t ready for a proper Rally use (unless the WRC is suddenly transformed into a Mickey Mouse competition, like FE). Besides, even if their share continues to grow, EVs are still a small fraction (around 3%) of the global car market.

The point is that the industry may not have time to look for alternatives (like synthetic fuels), once EU politicians seem eager to impose BEVs as the sole option. Reports on the future Euro 7 norms are scary, making one to believe that ICEs may start to be dropped in 2025. If so, we can only hope that the Hybrid WRC era will allow the necessary time (fingers crossed for being a long one) to make future electric Rally cars interesting to follow.

https://www.electrive.com/2020/11/16/vda-worried-about-the-euro-7-emissions-standard/
http://www.journalauto.com/lja/article.view/35378/normes-euro-7-le-scenario-du-pire/1/constructeurs

[Francis44]

You are correct - Rallying has missed a golden opportunity to become relevant again. Their switch to Hybrid has been very late, they had an opportunity to make it way more "extreme" and missed it. Think about full EV on liaisons / ICE on stages (including recharging for the next liaison etc ...), maybe even full EV with fast charging at stages end. I understand the engineering challenge (added battery weight, battery life, ...), I understand it may not look anymore like the rallying that we know (which is already a far cry from the one that i grew up with in the 70's) - but if you believe the market value of rallying is to relate to manus production using the same roads as average Joe, can you imagine the PR dream by saying "you commute on these roads everyday, winter and summer - now our champions are doing the same at full speed with our EV - no problem". Wouldn't that be a true proof point for EV acceptance ? Attracting manus to the sport, instead of leaving one by one ?
Yes it will be dull for a few years (even though save from the noise, the lastest Skoda rally EV video looked OK), but how did you felt in 1987 when the GpA cars followed the uber-exciting Gp.B machines ?
Yes rallyes may have to become shorter / more compact, but isn't that already happening ?
I am not saying i would be happy for such move to happen, but i see that this may be (have been ?) the only way for Rallying to become one of the golden series as it once was.

That is all fine and dandy, but how can you maintain a championship if most of the current follower base leaves and you have trouble appealing to a new one (interested in full EVs)?

That is no go for me.

Rally Power: Both articles are from clear pro EV websites, they always tend to muddy the waters in their favor.

We must not forget EU for example is making it all about CO2, so if you are able to develop a CO2 neutral fuel, for example, you cannot just ban it for not being a BEV. They have set their legal base so there is room for other options.

[Mirek]

IMHO this is a lost fight which is mostly about minimizing loses but for sure not about any victories. Motorsport in the current social and political environment in Europe (where it has the largest support base) will be ostracized more and more and it will continue to decline.

[Francis44]

IMHO this is a lost fight which is mostly about minimizing loses but for sure not about any victories. Motorsport in the current social and political environment in Europe (where it has the largest support base) will be ostracized more and more and it will continue to decline.

Guys, lets be somewhat positive.

Aslong as there are a few engineers with as much passion as the competitors and spectators, something will be made to appeal us enthusiasts.

[AndyRAC]

Guys, lets be somewhat positive.

As long as there are a few engineers with as much passion as the competitors and spectators, something will be made to appeal us enthusiasts.

That's fine in theory. Who is going to pay for this - and appeal to enthusiasts? Rallying, and WRC is reliant on the manufacturers? Some series can run without much manufacturer involvement - but not rallying.

[Francis44]

That's fine in theory. Who is going to pay for this - and appeal to enthusiasts? Rallying, and WRC is reliant on the manufacturers? Some series can run without much manufacturer involvement - but not rallying.

Debatable, the ERC is a good example of that.

[Mirek]

Guys, lets be somewhat positive.

Aslong as there are a few engineers with as much passion as the competitors and spectators, something will be made to appeal us enthusiasts.

You have to differentiate between two things. Yes, the sport can continue on the enthusiastic basis but in that case it will become a minor curiosity like horse races instead of a global show run by one of the biggest and richest corporations for their marketing purposes (as it has been for past decades).


Debatable, the ERC is a good example of that.

No, all ERC cars have been developed and homologated by manufacturers who are either directly or indirectly involved.

[Francis44]

No, all ERC cars have been developed and homologated by manufacturers who are either directly or indirectly involved.

And they are mostly bought and runned with private funds. Because obviously there is some sort of economic gain to be had with those sales.

[Mirek]

And they are mostly bought and runned with private funds. Because obviously there is some sort of economic gain to be had with those sales.

Those sales are possible becuase of the marketing value of the championship which is largely created by the manufacturers. When they leave the public interest will go down and so will the total sum of money circulating in the sport.

[Rallyper]

If starting from square one WITHOUT FIA and have own series, I could think manufacturers will have another look. Rallying do not depend on FIA or manufacturers. If new rules allow some sort of cars (maybe even hybrids) it´s possible to start all over again.

I think at least the fan base, will be there, to begin with.

[Rally Power]

Rally Power: Both articles are from clear pro EV websites, they always tend to muddy the waters in their favor.


The first link is pro EV but the second it isn’t; they mostly quote German or French automotive sources (VDA, CCFA). The EU official document, with 3 options for future emissions standards (only option 1 seems possible for ICEs to cope), can be seen here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12313-European-vehicle-emissions-standards-Euro-7-for-cars-vans-lorries-and-buses

For sure we’re free to remain positive, but one must admit that EVs lobby managed to establish a politically correct view on EVs among the general public and the politicians won’t dare to question it, even if they should.

[AndyRAC]

Debatable, the ERC is a good example of that.

Erm, those are cars originally built by manufacturers, and homologated for competition. You can't run a 'home built' special in FiA series......

F1, WEC, etc could in theory run without manufacturers. LMP2 has had a Gibson engine for all cars, and an off the peg chassis by several motorsport constructors. Rallying needs manufacturers - unless there is a drastic change from the FiA; and then who finances any venture?

[denkimi]

Rallying never really needed manufacturers, they are only needed because of the stupid homologation fia-cashcow rules.

Everyone should be able to build and drive a car as long as its build according to the rules, just like in wrx or f1 or dakar or lemans or..

The forced need for manufacturers aproval has been holding the sport back for many years now. Without that rule, we could have seen many private firms operating their own cars, just like ik most other motorsports.

[wyler]

Rallying never really needed manufacturers, they are only needed because of the stupid homologation fia-cashcow rules.

Everyone should be able to build and drive a car as long as its build according to the rules, just like in wrx or f1 or dakar or lemans or..

The forced need for manufacturers aproval has been holding the sport back for many years now. Without that rule, we could have seen many private firms operating their own cars, just like ik most other motorsports.

mmm it seems to me that m-sport is the only name that fits. "open" section (as r4 kit) didn't bring out very much

[AnttiL]

The difference between rallying and most other motorsports is that rally cars must be street legal. I'm sure that has something to do with keeping the manufacturers in the homologation process. Not sure though how they apply that to the scaled down tubular chassis of the 2022 cars...

[Mirek]

Rallying never really needed manufacturers, they are only needed because of the stupid homologation fia-cashcow rules.

Everyone should be able to build and drive a car as long as its build according to the rules, just like in wrx or f1 or dakar or lemans or..

The forced need for manufacturers aproval has been holding the sport back for many years now. Without that rule, we could have seen many private firms operating their own cars, just like ik most other motorsports.

Rallying in principle didn't need them but without them it would be just a minor sport. It's them who made it big thing with big money. So, yes, it can run without them but be prepared that the profile of the sport will suffer hugely.

[T16]

The difference between rallying and most other motorsports is that rally cars must be street legal. I'm sure that has something to do with keeping the manufacturers in the homologation process. Not sure though how they apply that to the scaled down tubular chassis of the 2022 cars...

Isn’t it so they can drive them on the roads between stages?

[AnttiL]

Isn’t it so they can drive them on the roads between stages?

I meant that because of manufacturers homologating every rally car, they can be street legal. The current Toyota Yaris WRC is basically just a tuning kit added to a street Yaris. But if you had a Prodrive GT Turbo Rally1 or something, there wouldn't be a corresponding street model. But I don't know that much about these things.

[Morte66]

For what it's worth, I wouldn't care at all if we lost the road sections.

I wonder what would cost more, making rally cars road legal or putting them on a trailer between stages?

[Mirek]

I wonder what would cost more, making rally cars road legal or putting them on a trailer between stages?

Have you ever been to a rally? Where do you want to put those trailers? In at least half of the stages around the world there is nowhere to place some trailers dozens of kilometers around the stages and moreover some trucks with trailers may not even pass the road sections!

[Rallyper]

Easier then to let rallycars travel on their own between stages. But why should authorities bather. Rallycars has steering, brakes and safety zones for driver and passenger. They fit any traffic situation without having any question of being street legal. Authorities could easily let them drive without legalization.

[the sniper]

No road sections and non-road legal wacky racer prototypes not based on road cars... Are we still calling it rallying?

[denkimi]

mmm it seems to me that m-sport is the only name that fits. "open" section (as r4 kit) didn't bring out very much
M-sport and prodrive come to mind.
But in so many other classes there are many big private teams participating, so one has to ask why the wrc does not attract them.


Rallying in principle didn't need them but without them it would be just a minor sport. It's them who made it big thing with big money. So, yes, it can run without them but be prepared that the profile of the sport will suffer hugely.
I doesn't need to run without them. It just needs to be possible to build and drive a car without them.

Just like most other top series, like f1, like wrx, like dakar. Big manufacturers will still win the titles, but local teams can also build a car and participate. They don't need to find and convince a manufacturer to do it.

[Rallyper]

No road sections and non-road legal wacky racer prototypes not based on road cars... Are we still calling it rallying?

They don´t need to be wacky. Just think of the costsaving. So yes it´s still rallying. Rallycars on stages is rallying.

[T16]

They don´t need to be wacky. Just think of the costsaving. So yes it´s still rallying. Rallycars on stages is rallying.

The cars being on the road in between stages was part of what makes Rallying. That's not being all sentimental, it's simply a pillar of what makes the sport.

[mknight]

3 "pillars" that make rallying for me:

1. driven on normal roads, that are used for normal driving outside of rallies (else it's circuit racing or rallycross)
2. cars drive between stages on normal roads (else it's hillclimb)
3. cars resemble passenger vehicles that are driven and can be bought by public, resemble both in appearance, and method/style of propulsion. (else it's like autocross buggys, something "alien")


- so RWD cars from 1970s that nobody drives today are "historic" rallying for me, but not something to compete in on top level today

- when cars are run on petrol, rally cars should drive on petrol, when cars are hybrids, rally cars should be hybrids, when cars are electric, rally cars should be electric. At this very moment all 3 are available and used, so all 3 work for me). But running say on methanol like dragsters or something completely alien like an onboard chemical reactor (mixing 2 chemical components to generate energy) is just wrong for me. Similarly if in the future 99% of vehicles are electric, it would be wrong for me to have rallycars running on some synthetic petrol.

[Mirek]

I doesn't need to run without them. It just needs to be possible to build and drive a car without them.

I agree with this.

[Rallyper]

3 "pillars" that make rallying for me:

1. driven on normal roads, that are used for normal driving outside of rallies (else it's circuit racing or rallycross)
2. cars drive between stages on normal roads (else it's hillclimb)
3. cars resemble passenger vehicles that are driven and can be bought by public, resemble both in appearance, and method/style of propulsion. (else it's like autocross buggys, something "alien")


- so RWD cars from 1970s that nobody drives today are "historic" rallying for me, but not something to compete in on top level today

- when cars are run on petrol, rally cars should drive on petrol, when cars are hybrids, rally cars should be hybrids, when cars are electric, rally cars should be electric. At this very moment all 3 are available and used, so all 3 work for me). But running say on methanol like dragsters or something completely alien like an onboard chemical reactor (mixing 2 chemical components to generate energy) is just wrong for me. Similarly if in the future 99% of vehicles are electric, it would be wrong for me to have rallycars running on some synthetic petrol.

As many said, we have to adapt.

Adapting could mean no liasons. But stages like before. Of course cars people can buy. However that "autocross, alien" thing can be used on WRC17 cars as well.

[Mirek]

The thing with the stock-based cars is actually the simples of all. Majority of cars coming in the stock market in the future will be useless for conversion into rallycars therefore rallying will have to take the prototype way. There is no other choice.

[Tarmop]

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?:D
Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe even some full EV badge...but the group will have another badge, that will remain ICE. There is no known way to build batteries with normal range, without destroying the planet and there aren`t powerlines that can recharge those thousands every given moment. I don`t also see that even all the new real-estate developments are thinkg about it, not to mention old households. Come to think of it, i don`t know even know how efficient emergency services are dealing with batteries.

When we have laws, that all the new households/shops/ highways etc will have to have X number of charging points, all the old households in the cities, countryside etc have to have charging points by the year of Y, there will be many...many years gone by.

[TypeR]

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the hatchbacks are available in 4wd?:D
Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe....

Exactly what I also think.. At the moment it's like ,,peer pressure''.. Every brand has to do it coz other's are doing it too..
Hope the EV hype will calm down soon..

[Mirek]

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the hatchbacks are available in 4wd?:D
Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe even some full EV badge...but the group will have another badge, that will remain on ICE. There is no known way to build batteries with normal range, without destroying the planet and there aren`t powerlines that can recharge those thousands every given moment. I don`t also see that even all the new real-estate developments are thinkg about it, not to mention old households. Come to think of it, i don`t know even how efficient emergency services are dealing with batteries.

That's not only about EV. The pressure on emissions makes the engines very difficult to addapt for race use. Euro 7 is coming and there seems to be nothing which can stop it from going into application. Miller/Atkinson-cycle engines used already by Toyota and Mazda are near useless for racing and the others will have to abandon power for emissions as well if they want to continue with ICE. If you speak with any engine designer working in automotive today he tells you that when they design a new engine, the first thing is emissions. Only after that they can think about power. That is true even for brands like Porsche.

[Tarmop]

But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.

[Mirek]

But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.

In the post, you reacted to, I didn't speak about EV but about the automotive industry taking a path which is very unsuitable for the current homologation rules.

[Tarmop]

I didn`t react to your post. :)

[pantealex]

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?:D


In Finland both BMW and MB sell more FWD than RWD cars (mostly because bigger models are sold AWD) Most of Tesla´s are sold AWD.

[mknight]

As many said, we have to adapt.

Adapting could mean no liasons. But stages like before. Of course cars people can buy. However that "autocross, alien" thing can be used on WRC17 cars as well.


The thing with the stock-based cars is actually the simples of all. Majority of cars coming in the stock market in the future will be useless for conversion into rallycars therefore rallying will have to take the prototype way. There is no other choice.

Since start of WRC rules the top rally cars have very little in common with normal cars. But they still look like them from the outside (with some tuning kit).

Which is my point. Even a "shell" with spaceframe inside is more of a rally car for me than a buggy with single or in-line seating that runs stock engine and components.

As an example when I watched ROC some time back with Loeb etc. the buggys just simple were too "alien", while the touring car Megane which had nothing in common with stock on the inside felt more right.




What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?:D


Petrol/diesel RWD cars are a very small minority of sales. Even BMW left them with 2 series and then with new 1 series.

But you know very well what my comment was aiming at. Some people in UK claim that the only "real rallying" is NA RWD Escorts from 1970s, similarly some people in Scandinavia only count RWD Volvo 240s and similar as real rallying.

Back to your original trolling response there are modern RWD rally cars as you know. Going from Porsches over Aston Martin, Nissan 350Z and Fiat 124 to the modern Alpine. They indeed do count as rally cars for me, but they have one thing in common... they are hopelessly outclassed by 4WD cars on any rallies that are not on tarmac.

[Tarmop]

That is true yes, on slippery surfaces there is no match for the AWD.
But they do market well for a certain group of people... though probably also without rallying.

[Rallyper]

Since start of WRC rules the top rally cars have very little in common with normal cars. But they still look like them from the outside (with some tuning kit).

Which is my point. Even a "shell" with spaceframe inside is more of a rally car for me than a buggy with single or in-line seating that runs stock engine and components.

As an example when I watched ROC some time back with Loeb etc. the buggys just simple were too "alien", while the touring car Megane which had nothing in common with stock on the inside felt more right.




I never talked about buggys either. But rallies with non-homologated cars, looking or coming from street cars, maybe without liasons, is very much in the tube for the future.

[Rally Power]

The forced need for manufacturers aproval has been holding the sport back for many years now. Without that rule, we could have seen many private firms operating their own cars, just like ik most other motorsports.

Spot on.

Once current manus were in favor of having full protos (without any link to the industrial production, apart a silhouette body) from 2022, what’s the reason to keep private tuners unable to develop, build and run WRC cars?

Even if it’d be hard to find sponsors eager to fund top private tuners on a complete WRC program (probably only Red Bull or a middle-east country), opening Rally1 to private tuners would be a smart way to boost the series, fully justifying the rules move towards space frame chassis.

[Rally Power]

The difference between rallying and most other motorsports is that rally cars must be street legal. I'm sure that has something to do with keeping the manufacturers in the homologation process. Not sure though how they apply that to the scaled down tubular chassis of the 2022 cars...

It’s possible to have street legal protos, as it happens on Rally-Raid series (which also use open public roads as liaisons). Rally homologations are a manus monopoly because one of the established rules is to have the cars built from a mass production model, which only manus are able to provide. At the moment that rule is fundamentally changed (like it’ll be from 2022) there’s little room to keep manus homologation monopoly, at least in Rally1 case.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Yeah, it's a monopoly because it works. Without manufacturers baking and know how behind no one would be able to do a competitive car. And yes, I know that some buggies in the Dakar manage to do some good results, but in the end Toyota or Mini will dominate. As all cars made by Manus dominate in WTCR, GT3 or any other category

[NickRally]

But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.

I guess you are referring to this:

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/audi-to-compete-in-dakar-rally-13440

In my view this is a very cunning arrangement, it keeps the EV enthusiasts happy while providing as much range as the engineers choose to design in. In any case, efficiency of this drivetrain will not be worse than pure electric drive train and electricity produced in a modern coal power plant. They can play with battery capacity so that it can still be called a BEV (in the eyes of the EV supporters), but overall energy source weight, i.e. batteries plus combustion engine, electric generator and fuel tank, is kept in check. All in all, Audi may once again be the rally(raid) groundbreakers as they were with 4WD. They can claim (irrespective if true or false), that as battery technology develops, the role of the combustion engine is gradually reduced in this series hybrid drivetrain. As I said, very cunning in my mind.

On the other subject, I fully agree with all of you that suggested FIA should drop the requirement for homologation coming from the manufacturers. It is correct that the profile of the series depends on them being present, but the entries can be boosted by private companies preparing cars on their own. Again, as it was mentioned, nothing to prevent these cars being road legal. And although finding the budgets to undertake such projects is not easy, companies whose bread and butter depends on it, will find a way.

[dimviii]

do you like an audi quattro S1?
estimated price 1-1,3 million euros

https://www.artcurial.com/sites/default/files/styles/840_width/public/lots-images/2021-01-11-15/4058_10690481_1.jpg?itok=LVS2Wild

The car for sale

In 1988, Michèle Mouton decided to organize in Montlhéry the "Course des Champions", in tribute to Henri Toivonen, who died in the Tour de Corse 1986. This first event takes place on December 4 and uses a route which borrows pieces from the official circuit and sections inside the speed ring, some of them in dirt. It hosts the last eight world champions and takes place in the form of a timed special, the drivers succeeding each other in the same cars loaned by the manufacturers. The "champion of champions" is rewarded with the Henri Toivonen trophy which, during this first edition, goes to Juha Kankkunen, ahead of Timo Salonen.
For the rest, let's give the floor to Olivier Quesnel, then director of the Hommell Group. "Michèle Mouton came to see us in rue de Lille, where the group's offices were located, and we helped her a little to complete the organization of the event, in terms of communication in particular." Moreover, the program is published in the form of a special edition of Auto Hebdo, one of the group's titles.
"Of course I went to Montlhéry on race day," continues Olivier Quesnel, "and I suddenly stopped in front of an Audi Quattro Sport S1. I said to myself," This one is for me! "I went to the stand to see the Audi manager, who told me that the cars were not for sale. I set off again, talking about my past at Peugeot-Sport with Jean Todt, asking Michèle Mouton for supporting me and specifying that the car was for a museum.
Finally, after a long harassment process, they agreed to sell me the car. I then went to Ingolstadt and there, in the courtyard, there were several racing cars under tarpaulin and, in the middle, the Quattro S1 which they reserved for me, without tarpaulin, with a sign "Welcome Olivier"! It was quite moving.
We did all the paperwork with Audi AG, including a long sales contract, and my team went to get the car to bring it back to Bruno Saby in Grenoble, for preparation, before it was installed at the museum. It turns out that that same weekend Bruno was organizing a charity event on the speed track that dated back to the 1968 Olympics. When he saw the Quattro pull up on the trailer, he managed to convince me to let him ride. I just asked him to be careful ... Then came Ari Vatanen, who asked me the same. And finally Michèle Mouton. I couldn't refuse! But the turbo broke. I asked Audi for another and, after repair, the car left for the museum. "

Today, the car file includes a letter from Audi Sport dated February 22, 1989 signed by HP Gassen and S. Krause mentioning the sales contract, as well as the invoice for the sale, dated March 9, 1989. This Ci specifies that the car left the factory on September 14, 1988 in the color "Alpinweiss" and that the odometer totals 1000 km. As confirmed by its release date and mileage, the Race of Champions is the only event in which this car has participated, in the hands of the best drivers who have followed one another behind the wheel. It was sometimes used by pilots passing through Lohéac and the engine was rebuilt in the early 2000s. It presents exceptional authenticity and history, confirmed by its remarkably preserved original condition, both outside and inside.

When he recently took over the wheel of this car at Lohéac, Bruno Saby told us, "I didn't feel any heaviness thanks to the power, which is a big part of the fun. Although the car was fitted with gravel tires, I could tell immediately that it was well balanced. Perhaps it had even more potential than our Lancias. "
Today, Quattro S1 are extremely rare. Some have been destroyed and Audi Tradition has several survivors. The opportunity to buy one that is in private hands is therefore exceptional, all the more so for a car so well preserved.


We inform buyers that all the vehicles in the collection have been little used in recent years as it concerns a museum collection. They are therefore sold as is, without technical control and should benefit from a general overhaul before getting back on the road.

https://www.artcurial.com/en/lot-1988-audi-sport-quattro-s1-4058-9

[dimviii]

if you dont have so much money,never mind.
You can afford a cheaper grB with 600-800.000 euros.

https://www.artcurial.com/sites/default/files/styles/840_width/public/lots-images/2021-01-11-15/4058_10692500_1.jpg?itok=MhMA5-Ft

Chassis n° VF3741R76E5200009

- Second on the 1985 Tour de Corse with Saby/Fauchille
- Driven in the World Rally Championship by Saby and Salonen
- C201: "Granny", the grand old lady of the Evo 2 family
- Still registered in the name of Peugeot Sport
- The Group B car which was twice World Champion

The 205 Turbo 16 was one of France's greatest industrial and technological successes, like Concorde and the TGV. It soon dominated the world championship and won two titles, in 1985 and 1986, despite strong competition from Audi and Lancia. The Group B programme was announced by Jean Todt at the end of 1981, with its first entry on the Tour de Corse in 1984! The design brief was simple: the car had to look like Peugeot's best-selling 205, weigh no more than 950kg and have a mid-mounted turbocharged engine and four-wheel drive, like the Audi. The last point demonstrated Todt's vision as early as 1981, whereas other manufacturers only went down this route much later.
To achieve this, Todt assembled a high-quality team of creative, passionate and pragmatic contributors like those that France, in its eternal glory, can produce when it believes in itself. They included Jean-Pierre Nicolas as test driver, Jean-Claude Vaucard from the R&D department, and two notable hires poached from Renault: the engine specialist Jean-Pierre Boudy and, above all, the chassis engineer André de Cortanze who was working on the Moto Elf. Many key figures in the T16's history had spent time at Alpine, winner of the WRC in 1973: Nicolas, Saby, Jabouille, Fréquelin and, of course, Todt and de Cortanze!
On 29 March 1984, the 200 customer versions of the 205 Turbo 16 - essential for the 20 "Evolution" competition cars to be homologated - were presented to the FIA. They had been produced in less than 12 months, the rule for homologation in Group B. The next day, the 20 competition cars were brought in to be counted and approved by the FIA. The T16 was duly homologated on 1 April. A month later, on the 1984 Tour de Corse, the T16 demonstrated its potential: Nicolas finished 4th, exactly 20 years after driving a Renault Dauphine in the 1964 Tour de Corse! "Jumbo" still had what it took, Todt had not been wrong ... Vatanen, who was in the lead for a time, came off the road and his T16 went up in smoke, leaving a deep mark on de Cortanze.
20 Evo 1 cars were built by PTS, with the production numbers C1 to C20. The Evo 2 cars were numbered C201 to C220. These production numbers should not be confused with the chassis numbers, which were linked to a registration document ... and could be inconsistent! The competition T16 Evo 1s and the first Evo 2s were given the chassis numbers VF3741R76E5200001 to 20 so they could be registered in 1984. These chassis numbers were all slightly different from those of the "200-series" T16s. From October 1985, the Evo 2s were given chassis numbers starting VF3741R76F5591501. As in all motorsport departments, the number was not stamped on the bodyshells. The production number was painted on the doorjamb and a manufacturer's plate riveted in place, but the registration document could be passed from one car to another ...

EVOLUTION 1 AND EVOLUTION 2

Nicolas recently confirmed that the first T16, later known as the Evo 1, was a real truck: it was difficult to drive and exhausting in rallying, with 150bhp going through the front wheels. Bruno Saby thought the same of the Evo 2 without power steering ... As for de Cortanze, he considered his own roadgoing T16 impossible to use in town as its steering was so heavy!
As soon as he arrived at PTS, de Cortanze set to work improving and developing the T16. With his infectious enthusiasm, he told us of the work he did on the chassis to develop the Evo 2:
- Removing the rear girder section, held in place by two arms locating the engine and suspension. A major handicap for the service crews, this assembly was replaced by a tubular chassis, which also made it possible to fit a large silencer between the engine and the rear of the car.
- Rethinking and rationalising the front of the car, with changes to the spare wheel support, wheelarches etc.
- Fitting an integrated roll cage and carrying out extensive work to save weight.
As a result, the Evo 2 was much lighter (saving 35kg on the bodyshell alone) and much stiffer than the Evo 1. It was much easier to work on the engine. In addition, having been deeply affected by the fire on Vatanen's car, de Cortanze improved the layout of the fuel pipes, with connections at the back of the fuel tanks rather than underneath. A large skidplate - 1cm thick and weighing 70kg - was fitted to protect the fuel tanks under the seats. The tragic deaths of Toivonen and Cresto on the 1986 Tour de Corse proved him right and justified his obsession with the risk of fire.
The other major change on the Evo 2 was to fit power steering ... but only from the 1985 San Remo! It was not fitted to C201 for the 1985 Tour de Corse which, according to Saby, made the T16 Evo 2 very hard to drive, with its greatly increased power (430 instead of 350bhp) and lighter weight. A power steering pump used in aeronautics and operating at 300 bars was then fitted, with the help of Dassault Aviation. The extremely high pressure made it possible to fit a smaller cylinder. Meanwhile, Guy Micard, a former Matra engineer, directed the work of the Magneti Marelli technicians to re-program the mechanical injection system. De Cortanze also introduced some novel solutions on the Evo 2, such as using the engine coolant to heat the shock absorbers in Sweden, as on the night-time special stages at -40°, the suspension was otherwise completely inoperative, even long after the start! Virtually everything was revised or changed on the Evo 2: the brakes, clutch, transmission, cylinder head, water injection, intercooler, aerodynamics and cooling system. With its large rear spoiler, it was probably the best-looking Group B car built, as it must be admitted that next to the Audi Sport or S4, it was like comparing plain Jane with Brigitte Bardot!
The result of this almost complete makeover lived up to expectations: more powerful (by at least 80bhp) and lighter by 50kg, the Evo 2 was, in the words of Nicolas, "more agile and easier to drive", and, according to Saby, a delight to drive, admittedly a monster in its 500bhp final versions, but a great car with an engine that was easy to make the most of. Quite a feat at this level of motorsport!

[dimviii]

THE TURBO 16 EVO 2 CHASSIS NO. VF3741R76E5200009

Registered as 24 FGV 75, the car made its competition début on the 1985 Tour de Corse, with Saby at the wheel. It was the Evo 2's first appearance in competition and a trial run, as the Evo 1's career would continue for several months until the new model was fully operational. The PTS archives record the production number of this car as C201, making it the first Evo 2, and it was also nicknamed "Granny".
The favourites for the Tour de Corse were Vatanen and Salonen, both driving Evo 1s. Saby's job was to get some miles under the wheels of the new model. However Salonen retired almost immediately and Vatanen, fighting Ragnotti in his Maxi 5 Turbo, came off the road abruptly and destroyed his T16, fortunately without any injuries. Peugeot's hopes now rested on Saby and Fauchille, and Todt directed them to finish in the points and bring the car home on the podium. Saby told us that the car was exhausting without power steering, proving very hard to drive and tricky to control. Despite this, he won two stages outright at the end of the rally and achieved an unhoped-for second place, quite a feat given the work remaining to complete the Evo 2's development.
C201 was then extensively tested by Jean-Pierre Jabouille on the Michelin track at Ladoux, to bring about some much needed improvements! Next, it left for Greece, before the Acropolis Rally, for Saby to test it on poor gravel. Finally, it went to Finland, to be tested on good-quality fast surfaces. In December 1985, C201 was sent to Italy, for the Bettega Memorial held in Bologna in honour of the Lancia driver. Up against the new S4, the T16 Evo 2 driven by Salonen won the final, much to the dismay of the 50,000 tifosi present! Still registered 24 FGV 75, C201 showed up on the snow during the recces for the 1986 Monte-Carlo Rally. It is easy to imagine that at the time the recces were driven at quite a lick ...
The number 24 FGV 75 turned up again on the 1986 Monte on Salonen's T16, which finished second. The PTS archives indicate that the Evo 2 C206 was assigned to him ... C201 was considered somewhat worn-out and it was only natural for the team's star driver to be allocated a new car! The use of the same registration document for different cars was common practice by all the teams at the time, including Peugeot, Renault and Lancia.
C201 then went into early retirement in the PTS facility at Boulogne. The registration 24 FGV 75 was no longer seen on the cars Peugeot entered in the WRC, so it is fair to assume that the registration document reverted to C201 after its time with C206 on the Monte.
In 1986, Peugeot was once again World Rally Champion. But Group B was banned at the end of the year, following the accidents in Portugal and the deaths of Toivonen and Cresto in a Lancia S4 on the Tour de Corse. For the former stars of Group B, the only options were long-distance rallies like the Dakar or rallycross.
One Evolution 2 was sold in 1987 to Peugeot Finland, for the use of Matti Alamäki in the European rallycross championship. There is a very high likelihood, according to witnesses at the time, that this car was C201, aka "Granny". A previous winner of the championship, Alamäki competed in the 1987 season with an S4 but lost the title to another Finnish driver, Seppo Niitymäki, in a T16. He therefore turned to Sochaux, and with Peugeot Finland's T16 repainted in red, he won the European title three years in a row, in 1988, 1989 and 1990, despite competition from several other former Group B cars, such as the Audi Quattro Sport, Lancia S4 and Maxi Turbo. In the meantime, he had bought the T16 from Peugeot Finland, its French registration document as 24 FGV 75 still in Peugeot's name, probably to avoid customs duties.

THE LOHEAC YEARS

At the end of the 1980s, Michel Hommell asked his friend Olivier Quesnel to source some Group B cars for the museum at Lohéac in Brittany. Formerly responsible for promoting PTS, Quesnel was very familiar with the world of rallying and everyone in it. The T16 Evo 2 belonging to the Peugeot dealer group with which Fréquelin and Wambergue had won the French rallycross championship in 1988 and 1989 was available, and was destined for the museum. But PTS needed the car for shows and as a spare car for the Race of Champions organised by Michèle Mouton, as the letter from Nicolas in November 1989 states. PTS therefore sent two mechanics to pick up the car from Oreca, near the Paul Ricard track. They stopped at a restaurant in the Bouches-du-Rhône, and when they came out, their Peugeot estate, trailer and T16 had disappeared! They were never recovered.
Quesnel therefore set about looking for another genuine T16 Evo 2 and negotiated with Alamäki to buy for Michel Hommell the rallycross-winning car. The negotiation lasted a year and the car was collected from the French border. It was then sent to PTS to be fully restored and returned to its 1986 WRC spec. Quesnel confirmed to us that it is C201 and that it was therefore fitted out in the colours and with the bucket seats used by Saby and Fauchille on the 1985 Tour de Corse. During the restoration, the production number was painted over, as the interior of the museum's T16 was completely resprayed.
This T16 Evo 2 is now in remarkable condition, complete and fitted only with parts supplied directly by PTS. It looks magnificent in its works livery. Since the car's rebuild at the start of the 1990s, it is as if it has been frozen in time. It will therefore need to be fully overhauled, as it has been jealously preserved in the museum and has not been driven for several decades.
In our view, it is the best-looking Group B car. It is fitted with power steering and features the final changes made to the model. Only 20 Evo 2s were built, many of which have been destroyed. This is an exceptional opportunity to acquire the Holy Grail of Group B cars, the best T16 according to Saby and Nicolas and a car that is fundamentally different from the Evo 1, thanks to de Cortanze's work.
To crown it all, the T16 from Lohéac can boast a remarkable tally of results: second on the Tour de Corse with Saby, the winner of the Bettega Memorial with Salonen and three times European rallycross champion with Alamäki.
https://www.artcurial.com/en/lot-1985-peugeot-205-turbo-16-evolution-2-4058-7

[dimviii]

if you dont fancy the 205 dont worry.
You can choose a δS4 for same amount of money.


https://www.artcurial.com/sites/default/files/lots-images/2021-01-11-15/4058_10690325_4.jpg

Chassis no. 227

- Rare authentic works Group B car
- Competed in Lancia Martini racing colours with Biasion in 1986
- Well-documented history, in current ownership since 1988
- Ex-Bruno Saby, one of the top rally drivers in the 1980s

At the start of Group B, Lancia entered the World Rally Championship with its light and capable 037. But its traditional rear-wheel drive layout had its limitations when compared with competitors such as the Audi Quattro and Peugeot 205 T16, whose four-wheel drive worked wonders.
In order for Lancia to regain its place at the top of the rankings, Cesare Fiorio and Claudio Lombardi decided to start from a blank sheet of paper and created the Delta S4. They wanted to keep its weight under 900 kg and therefore limited the engine capacity to 1759 cc, to comply with the restrictions imposed in the regulations. They developed a new all-aluminium 16-valve engine, which they wanted to match or beat the 450 bhp developed by the Peugeot. To offset the drawbacks of the turbo (lack of power at low revs and delayed response), Lombardi had the original idea of combining a turbo and a mechanical supercharger, the Volumex, resulting in an engine that was both powerful and flexible. Four-wheel drive was essential, and the Ferguson viscous coupling allowed the torque split to be varied from 40/60 front/rear to 100% to the rear. The engine was mounted lengthwise ahead of the rear axle in a tubular chassis strengthened with Kevlar and carbon panels, covered with a fibreglass body styled on the lines of the production Delta.

Planned to enter the rally championship in the middle of the 1985 season, the Lancia Delta S4 finally made its first official appearance in November, on the RAC Rally. It immediately proved its qualities, finishing first and second in the hands of Henri Toivonen and Markku Alen. The following year, the title was a close fight with Peugeot and at the end of the season Lancia was ahead, but the FIA annulled the results of the San Remo Rally, handing victory to Peugeot. Meanwhile, Henri Toivonen was involved in a tragic accident on the Tour de Corse, heralding the end of Group B. It would be reasonable to assume that the experience Lancia gained with the S4 helped it greatly in developing the Delta HF Integrale, which would dominate the world of rallying from 1987 to 1992.

The car for sale

The works Lancia Delta S4 presented here left Abarth's competition department in 1986 in Group B configuration. In the Lancia Martini colours and registered TO 52127 F, its career got off to a flying start in December 1986, when it finished second in the 'Memorial Bettega', as an official entry driven by Miki Biasion with the racing number 2. Markku Alen was at the wheel of the winning car: chassis number 228, registered TO 52126 F.
With the cancellation of Group B, the cars came to an abrupt standstill, and the manufacturers and drivers turned to other branches of motorsport for which the cars were eligible. This car could thus be seen again in 1987 during the 24 Heures de Chamonix ice race, when Biasion and Saby took turns behind the wheel. The Group B cars were also accepted in another discipline, that of rallycross. These events took place on closed tracks, ensuring a greater degree of safety than rallying. This was the direction taken by this Delta S4, thanks to Saby.

But let's go back a bit: in 1985 and 1986, Saby was driving for Peugeot and when Group B came to an end, Peugeot invited him to take part in the Paris-Dakar with the 205 Turbo 16. "I turned down their offer as I didn't feel ready for that kind of long-distance rally", Saby told us. "And, above all, my dream was to win the Monte-Carlo Rally." He entered the 'Monte' in 1987 with Lancia Martini, which was fielding the Group A Delta HF 4x4s, but had to retire due to transmission failure when he was among the leaders. He was in luck in January 1988, when he finally fulfilled his dream and won the famous rally.
"After Group B, the manufacturers scaled back their programmes, and in 1988 I therefore had the idea of taking part in the French Rallycross Championship and setting up my own team, Grenoble Sport Auto. Lancia helped me, as did the Hommell Group, which was the instigator of rallycross in France. And with Cesare Fiorio's agreement, we were able to pick up an official Group B Lancia." It was number 227. According to Olivier Quesnel, who was running the Hommell Group at the time, "it was intended to go to one of Fiat's directors, but he agreed to sell it to us, as he believed cars were meant to be used."

Prepared by Grenoble Sport Auto for this new discipline with official support from Lancia, it sported the colours of 'Métal 5' and embarked on a fiercely contested season, as Quesnel recalls: "We had one hell of a fight with Peugeot that year. Going into the final round, our teams had five wins each." Saby continues the story: "Throughout the season, I had been battling against Guy Fréquelin, an old friend and rival, who had a 205 T16. The last round was held at Trappes and we had five wins each, so this last race would be decisive. In rallycross, starting in the lead is essential, as afterwards it's impossible to overtake. Well, the 205 had an extremely powerful Pikes Peak engine and Guy went into the first corner ahead of me. We were bumper to bumper throughout the race and he crossed the finish line half a bonnet's length in front of me. That was a season we'll always remember!"

After this memorable year, the car was bought by Michel Hommell and headed for the museum. "We were in the process of establishing the Group B collection", Quesnel confirms. "The car was restored to its original Lancia Martini livery and immediately took its place in the museum."

Today, it is in exceptional original condition, with an equally remarkable history. A works car from the start, in the legendary Martini colours, it was driven by one of the top rally drivers of its time, with support from Turin. Immediately after this, it became part of an exhibition, where its integrity has been preserved. Of all these exceptional cars, it is undoubtedly one of the most authentic works Delta S4s to survive.


"One of its strengths was its engine"

The Lancia Delta S4 was one of the most outstanding cars in Group B. For Bruno Saby, "It was a very well-balanced car for the whole season. One of its strengths was its engine. Thanks to the combination of the turbo and the Volumex supercharger, we had power across the rev range. The Group B cars were exceptional, and I was enormously lucky to have known them. It's always an emotional moment when I see them at Lohéac and get behind the wheel of my S4 for a few laps of the track."
Markku Alen, a loyal Lancia driver, knows the S4 well: "The 037's rear-wheel drive was always a handicap. You couldn't really win on snow or gravel. We arrived very late with the S4, but I quickly got used to it."
Roberto Vittone, a former Lancia engineer, adds: "The S4 was fantastic, but we only had it for a year. It started out with 430 bhp and was close to 500 bhp at San Remo, but we didn't have enough time to develop it. We could have gone further and maybe got another 30% from it."
(Comments taken from interviews in Classic & Sports Car)

https://www.artcurial.com/en/lot-1986-lancia-delta-s4-4058-8#popin-active

[dimviii]

https://www.artcurial.com/sites/default/files/lots-images/2021-01-07-18/4058_10690478_11.jpg

Unregistered
Châssis n°ZLA151AR0*00000412 (voir texte)

- Group B pioneer, 1983 World Title model
- Evo 2 factory specification
- Remarkably well-conserved condition
- Legendary machine

A pioneer in Group B, the Lancia 037 was atypical being a simple rear-wheel drive with a design emphasising low weight and handling, as Cesare Fiorio had wanted. In fact, the 037 was an evolution of the Beta Monte-Carlo endurance car, used during 1980 - 1981 to test both mechanical and turbo supercharging solutions.
First presented in October 1981, the car had a monocoque structure with tubular sub-frames at front and back, and was equipped with the Fiat 131 Abarth's 16-valve 4-cylinder engine positioned longitudinally and fitted with a mechanically-controlled Abarth compressor. Light and compact, the Lancia 037 was the first real Group B car and made its entrance during the 1982 season, as the 200 examples required for homologation were ready by April 1982. After an initial outing in April in the Costa Esmerelda Rally in Sardinia, the first evolution arrived in time for the Madeira Rally, with Bosch injection replacing the single Weber carburettor and a water injection system added. The best results came at the end of the season with Markku Alen finishing fourth in the RAC Rally, the first of the Group B cars.
The 1982 title went to Audi but, with the 'running-in' season completed, Lancia was well-prepared for 1983. Which was demonstrated from the off, with the two 037s driven by Walter Röhrl and Markku Alen finishing 1st and 2nd in the Monte-Carlo Rally. The Italian team then came in behind Audi in Portugal, but were in control again for the Tour de Corse with a top three finish, followed by a one-two in Greece and a victory in New Zealand. Audi started to catch up towards the end of the season when Lancia struck the final blow with a top-three finish at San Remo : the World Title was back in their hands!

The outlook wasn't so good for 1984 : Walter Röhrl left for Audi to drive the highly developed Quattro Sport, and the Peugeots were gaining in power. Despite an increased engine size of 2 111cc, the two-wheel drive of the 037s struggled against machines with four-wheel drive, particularly on loose surfaces. This didn't stop the 037s valiantly defending themselves, and there was a particularly impressive 1-2 result in the Tour de Corse and several other podium finishes. Cesare Fiorio, needing to respond, began preparing the Delta S4, but although this new machine appeared at the end of 1984, it wasn't homologated until the end of 1985. Although the 037 handled brilliantly, it couldn't match its competitors and the best result during 1985 was Mikki Biasion's second place in the Portuguese Rally.
In any event, this model has left Markku Alen with some wonderful memories, which he recalled recently in Classic & Sports Car : " I don't know if it's the best car that I've driven, but it was my favourite. It was also the only one I didn't roll…I loved the 037, but only having two-wheel drive put us at a disadvantage off road. On the tarmac it was unbeatable. I won the Tour de Corse in 1983 and 1984 in an 037, and I was very proud of these results."
As one of the first Group B cars to appear, the Lancia 037 had time to distinguish itself beyond the World Rally Championship, in national and European championships driven by such talented drivers as Andruet, Darniche, Capone, Tabaton and Clarr, as well as those mentioned above. It left a lasting impression in this memorable era of rallying.

The car in the sale

The Lancia 037 in the collection is in Evo 2 configuration, built to Abarth factory Group B specification for 1983 - 1986. Olivier Quesnel recalls:
"When we set up the collection, I wanted to include an 037. I mentioned this to Bruno Saby, who told me that there was one at Volta, the Italian preparer. We were able to get hold of it in 1990. I am of the opinion that it ran first in "Lancia Martini" colours, then in the "Olio Fiat" livery with Fabrizio Tabaton."
One must remain cautious about the history and particular races the car took part in in period. For, as we have seen with other marques, it was common for large teams to have one registration document for several cars, to allow for the constraints of time, geography and availability. One registration document could be associated with several cars and histories, and as we have seen on other 037 Evo 2s, it appears that the section of the bulkhead with the chassis number stamped on has been cut away and re-welded, so we are not able to verify the car's identity with certainty.
These elements are an illustration of the different era this car comes from. What is worth noting is how rare it is to come across an 037 Evo 2 that has been in the hands of one careful owner since 1990, when it was acquired directly from Volta.
Having been conserved vigilantly at the museum for the last three decades, this car is presented in incredibly well-conserved condition, with its 4-cylinder water injection engine and mechanically-controlled Abarth supercharger. It was re-done in "Martini" livery by Volta. We were able to listen to the engine started up but the car will require a full re-commission before it can be driven. Here is a rare opportunity to acquire a Group B pioneer, one of few cars to have performed brilliantly in this class with two-wheel drive, thanks to its low weight and superb handling. The 037 won the World Rally Championship for Lancia in 1983, and was the Italian marque's only Group B car to do so. A genuine icon from this legendary category.


https://www.artcurial.com/en/lot-1985-lancia-037-4058-12

[NickRally]

All of them, I would say!

[Rally Power]

Btw, besides Autohebdo and many other publications, Michel Hommell was also the founder of Echappement magazine; in the 90's he asked Echappement readers to define the general layout of a new French sports car, eventually produced (and even Rally used) in small numbers under the 'Hommell Berlinette' name. Despite Hommell Group current financial worries, the car museum (next to Loheac's WRX circuit, also developed by Mr. Hommell) is expected to reopen after the pandemic. https://www.manoir-automobile.fr/home/

[NickRally]

Btw, besides Autohebdo and many other publications, Michel Hommell was also the founder of Echappement magazine; in the 90's he asked Echappement readers to define the general layout of a new French sports car, eventually produced (and even Rally used) in small numbers under the 'Hommell Berlinette' name. Despite Hommell Group current financial worries, the car museum (next to Loheac's WRX circuit, also developed by Mr. Hommell) is expected to reopen after the pandemic. https://www.manoir-automobile.fr/home/

Now on my list of places to visit one day, cheers Rally Power!

[dimviii]

https://www.artcurial.com/sites/default/files/lots-images/2021-01-11-15/4058_10690480_44.jpg


Unregistered
Chassis no. PT 8220E 00001

- The most powerful 2WD Group B car
- Ex-Carlos Sainz
- The ultimate R5 Turbo
- Superbly preserved

The Renault 5 Turbo came about thanks to Jean Terramorsi, the deputy head of product management for Renault responsible for limited-production models. In 1977, he conceived a sporting version of the company's star, the little Renault 5, but simply improving its handling or power output - as with the R5 Alpine - was not enough. Terramorsi felt he needed to turn it into a true rally car, using Renault's key technology: the turbocharger.
With its mid-mounted turbocharged engine, strengthened chassis and special suspension, its steel, polyester and aluminium body and its spectacular rear, far wider than the front, the R5 Turbo, presented to the press in 1978, was the subject of great passion. The first version (Group 4) in 1980 won the Monte-Carlo Rally and the Tour de Corse. Just 20 examples of the next version, logically named the "Tour de Corse" (TDC), were built for the 1983 season, in accordance with the new regulations for Group B, which replaced Group 4.
It soon became clear, however, that the car was outclassed by its rivals and a radical re-think was called for. Patrick Landon (head of Renault Sport's rally department) received the whole-hearted backing of Gérard Larrousse, the managing director of Renault Sport. A four-wheel drive model, like the Audi Quattro or forthcoming Peugeot T16, was a possibility, but the Group B regulations required that a series of 200 cars be made available through the dealer network in order for 20 cars to be built for competition! It was inconceivable, given the budget allocated by Renault.
The difficulty of the TDC was that the rear wheels were too small. To fit larger wheels, Renault had to increase the engine capacity from 1397 to 1527cc, with the help of a crankshaft with a 5mm longer stroke, and a 1mm larger bore. With the multiplication factor for turbo engines, this let it exceed the limit for the 2-litre class. A series of 200 R5 Turbo 2s was offered to customers with a larger engine, the type 8221 instead of the 8220 of the R5 Turbo. It should be noted that this limited run of Turbo 2s had an aluminium roof, as on the R5 Turbo "1".
But the changes did not stop with the engine: the future Maxi 5 was a complete reworking of the TDC: the front and rear wishbones, hub carriers, anti-roll bars and shock absorbers were all different. The gearbox had a magnesium sump and the car's unique bodyshell was strengthened. The brakes were initially identical to the TDC but the diameter was later increased to 299mm. François Bernard was responsible for the chassis and Philippe Coblence for the engine. Coblence drew on Renault's research in F1 into fuel-injection, the ignition system, turbocharging and the air-to-water intercooler made by SECAN, a subsidiary of Chausson.
In particular, the injection of water into the intake manifold reduced the temperature of the air by 10°. The large SECAN intercooler specific to the model was relocated from the left rear wing to above the gearbox. The turbo meanwhile was moved to the right in the wing, with a special mechanism to limit the intense heat produced, and the exhaust was routed ahead of the right rear wheel, to reduce the heat generated in the engine bay. The engine now produced 350bhp at 6500rpm, with very high maximum torque of 311lb·ft, 72lb·ft more than the TDC!
For homologation reasons, 20 Maxis were assembled, but thanks to the valuable information provided by Patrick Landon, it can be stated that when the 20 cars were presented to the FFSA, ten were assembled "dry", with no fluids, and were stripped down immediately afterwards. Only ten cars were in running order and were sold with a certificate enabling them to be registered (Archives of P. Landon):

Series no. 701: registered 7499 YA 91, works car in Philips colours, sold to Dominique de Meyer in 1986
Series no. 702: registered 9489 YB 91, works car in Philips colours, won the Tour de Corse in 1985
Series no. 703: registered 5555 SP 30, sold to the Gard Departmental Council for Philippe Touren
Series no. 704: registered VA 4650 M (SP), supplied to FASA Spain for Carlos Sainz
Series no. 705: registered 27 FJE 75, supplied to DIAC Renault for François Chatriot
Series no. 706: registered 194 FGL 75, supplied to Renault Compiègne for François Chatriot
Series no. 708: registered 367 YC 91, works car in Philips colours, sold to Pascal Thomasse in 1986 with the identification plates of no. 701
Series no. 709: registered 40840 (AND), sold to Gérard De la Casa in Andorra
Series no. 710: registered 4838 TE 14, sold to Gérard Paquet
Series no. 712: registered 21 RG 28, sold to Renault Chartres for Didier Auriol
711 was a kit kept by Landon's team, 713 was a kit sold to Renault Chartres and 707 was a kit supplied to either FASA or DIAC.

The semi-official teams, such as Renault Chartres, DIAC or FASA Renault Spain in effect received a complete car which could be registered and a second as a kit ... Renault Chartres thus competed with two cars with the same registration number for Didier Auriol: one (712) sponsored by 33 Export, the other (713) by Philips. For Renault's DIAC subsidiary, which specialised in car finance, François Chatriot's first car (706) caught fire on the Rallye des Garrigues in 1985. It was immediately replaced in competition by 705, then completely rebuilt using the spare bodyshell. Renault Classic still owns four Maxis, including the real DIAC car (705), which has never left its reserve collection, and two "Philips" cars, one of which has the registration papers of 702.
It should not be forgotten that half the Maxis were stripped down for parts! The numerous bodyshells and mechanical components available during the Maxis' time in competition meant they could be rebuilt from standard R5 Turbo bodies, Maxi bodies damaged in accidents or even from new Maxi bodyshells still available when Group B came to an end. It is important therefore to be able to trace the history of these legendary cars, which symbolise the wild years of Group B. We will look now at the history of Carlos Sainz' cars, including the very fine example from Lohéac.