2012 Brazilian Grand Prix - Title Decider

[dj_bytedisaster]

I couldn't find the exact rules in the pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/A0C5392CB79B3323C1257A85004FFAA9/$FILE/2012%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2009-03-2012.pdf) that's available on FIA's website.

The incident wasn't broadcast on any main feed, as it happened when FOM were showing replays of the start.

My guess is that Ferrari can't appeal something they don't see or find out about. It was only available on an optional feed, not a major broadcaster.

The feeds are the same all over the world. It's called 'world feed' for a reason. All teams have people sitting back in the garage watching all available feeds. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Ferrari completely missed something that some kid with a video dug out? I find that hard to believe.




It is yellow. Additionally, the yellow flag lights (next to Vettel's gear indicator) appear at 10:10 are still yellow at the time of the pass.

The GPS data would be interesting...

The indicators are yellow, meaning the pass was under yellow. True. What do the rules say about cars that slow down substantially under yellow? The three cars infront of Vettel came out of the Senna-S nose-to-tail and suddenly there are several car lengths between them and the Torro, even before the Johnny Walker board, which means he lifted off completely. Do the yellow flag rules prohibit the passing of cars that slow down dramatically under yellow? Somehow reminds me of Lewis vs Trulli in '08.

EDIT:
Another question. What was the Torro doing anyways? Letting Vettel pass at that point didn't make sense, as the green light was already visible, so he could have let him pass into the corner without giving up what looks like almost 100m to the cars in front of him. The telemetry data from that Torro would probably shed some light. We've seen driver run into gear change problems before that somehow go away again a few seconds later, especially when rain messes with the electronics. Frankly this whole situation doesn't make sense. Why should a Torro let Vettel pass in a way that puts him in danger of a penalty. Weird.

[AndyL]

No, I didn't have a clue. I was only prompted to look it all up after reading about the controversy on here. It didn't make sense at the time as there wasn't a mention of it on the BBC, nor on the news, or anywhere else I would have expected it to appear, if indeed a championship had been won unfairly. I just pieced it together from various snippets of information and from re-watching the video clip.

In that case, don't you think it was rather impertinent to use your 20/20 hindsight to label people who misinterpreted the situation as "ill-informed" or "Alonso fans grasping at straws"? I believe most of us on here simply called it as we saw it.

[Ranger]

I think this answers the question.

There's an actual green flag being waved, but according to the lights and GPS, it is a yellow flag zone.

http://i49.tinypic.com/212bl1c.jpg

[AndyL]

The indicators are yellow, meaning the pass was under yellow. True. What do the rules say about cars that slow down substantially under yellow? The three cars infront of Vettel came out of the Senna-S nose-to-tail and suddenly there are several car lengths between them and the Torro, even before the Johnny Walker board, which means he lifted off completely. Do the yellow flag rules prohibit the passing of cars that slow down dramatically under yellow? Somehow reminds me of Lewis vs Trulli in '08.

There is a definite exemption to pass a car that is slowing with an apparent problem in safety car conditions. It seems logical that the same would apply under yellow flags, though I can't find the relevant rule just now. I'm sure Vettel would not have known that Vergne's "problem" was Helmut Marko screaming in his ear ;)

[Triumph]

In that case, don't you think it was rather impertinent to use your 20/20 hindsight to label people who misinterpreted the situation as "ill-informed" or "Alonso fans grasping at straws"? I believe most of us on here simply called it as we saw it.

No, because I negated the notion of 20/20 hindsight at the time with the statement: "I had no idea about this flag/light controversy from watching the BBC broadcast."

[dj_bytedisaster]

In that case, don't you think it was rather impertinent to use your 20/20 hindsight to label people who misinterpreted the situation as "ill-informed" or "Alonso fans grasping at straws"? I believe most of us on here simply called it as we saw it.

Well I didn't agree with Triumph's initial statement, but something that sort of amuses me is the sort of effort people invest in finding something, just anything, to discredit Vettel or find something to overturn the result. It has a certain pathetic ring to it. And what have we heard over the last three days - first it was the move on Koba, which turned out to be a non-issue, then there was this whole thing about the Ayrton Senna remark, which also turned out to be a non-issue and now the third attempt. I mean seriously, some people just don't know when to stop and accept it.
Everybody but RB themselves had an interest in Fernando being crowned champion. The Schumacher years are still very fresh in everybody's mind. FIA, Bernie, they all know that a third Vettel title isn't good for the business. That means you can scratch any idea about FIA covering up a Vettel infraction off your list. Had they found any reason to penalize Vettel, they would've done it. In fact it's quite surprising that they didn't do so after the Senna incident.
I still think that Ferrari did know of that situation. I mean they can spot holes in the undertray of a well-guarded rival car, but miss a blatant pass under yellow? Don't think so.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think this answers the question.

There's an actual green flag being waved, but according to the lights and GPS, it is a yellow flag zone.

http://i49.tinypic.com/212bl1c.jpg

Don't flags have precedence over lights?

One has to give credit to the video editor, though. He put the hightlight on the green light in the distance at exact the same moment as Vettel passes the Marshal. Nice try actually :D

[AndyL]

No, because I negated the notion of 20/20 hindsight at the time with the statement: "I had no idea about this flag/light controversy from watching the BBC broadcast."

Perhaps you're using some meaning of the word "negate" I'm unfamiliar with. Admitting you're speaking with the benefit of hindsight sounds to me pretty much the exact opposite of "negating the notion of hindsight".

If you had seen Vettel passing Kobayashi with yellow lights showing at the side of the track on the live coverage, and immediately used your extensive knowledge of Appendix H of the Sporting Regulations and the Supplementary Regulations for the Brazilian Grand Prix to determine that no infringement had been committed, then you might be in a position to accuse the rest of us of being ill-informed. But to come along after all the dust has settled and call people "ill-informed Alonso fans clutching at straws" for making an honest interpretation of what we were seeing at the time (and you were not) is, without a doubt, impertinent.

[dj_bytedisaster]

^^^^^ what he said

[A FONDO]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/kart-hrt-sat-inte-2012-886x589.jpg

Brazil likely saw the last F1 appearance for Narain Karthikeyan (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/narain-karthikeyan/) and HRT. The cash-strapped teams’ drivers have been using the FanVision sets made available to fans to follow the track action during timed sessions, seemingly to save money on monitors. :laugh:

[Triumph]

Yes, I suppose you are right with your first point and I should have worded my post to actually make some sense.

What I intended to convey were words to the effect of my statement negating the need for it to be pointed out as 20/20 hindsight, due to the very fact that it was in itself an acknowledgement of having no prior knowledge. The negation occurs due to my post already amounting to an admission of "20/20 hindsight".

But anyway, regarding the rest of your points, I understand why you might be annoyed, but the offending part of my post was only aimed at unsporting types of the nature described, and not decent people, ill-informed or otherwise.

Apologies if I have inadvertently offended any decent, good-natured F1 fans as that wasn't my intention.

[Ranger]

Don't flags have precedence over lights?

One has to give credit to the video editor, though. He put the hightlight on the green light in the distance at exact the same moment as Vettel passes the Marshal. Nice try actually :D

I think lights have the same status. But as there is a green flag after the first yellow light on that straight there is no issue.

The dash lights do not count.


4.1.2 Flag signals to be used at observation posts:
b) Yellow flag:
This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two
ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be
prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or
partly on the track.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be
prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly
or partly blocking the track.
Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshals’ post
immediately preceding the hazard.
In some cases however the Clerk of the Course may order them
to be shown at more than one marshals’ post preceding an
incident.
Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the
green flag displayed after the incident.

4.2 Light signals
Lights may be used to supplement or replace waved red, yellow,
green, blue and white flags. When lights are to be used at an
event they should be described in the Supplementary Regulations
and the following requirements should be respected.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Not sure if this has been seen or shared here but there is a video from Seb's onboard camera that suggests he overtook under flashing yellow light conditions. It shows he had completed the pass by the time he reached green flag conditions. Not sure if flags over rule lights but the lights are certainly easier to see.

Adelantamiento de Vettel bajo banderas amarillas - Brasil 2012 - Audio original - sin comentarios - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MZHaBuaA9oQ)

Video shows Vettel made illegal pass under yellows in Brazil (http://www.totalf1.com/full_story/view/437579/Video_shows_Vettel_made_illegal_pass_under_yellows _in_Brazil/)

What do you guys think? :)

That particular myth has been debunked yesterday. We talked about it most of the evening. There's a marshal with a green flag on the pit exit. Doesn't wash. Conspiracy over.

It's really starting to become ridiculous. We are now going into the third day of Spaniards coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories and 'alleged proof' videos to contrive a penalty, so they can give Fernando a Title. None of it stuck, because there is nothing to find. What happened to gracefully accepting defeat? Guess it went out of style some years ago...

[dj_bytedisaster]

Touchy. Sorry for posting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You posted the very same video that was proven to be a myth yesterday - in this very forum and this very thread.

[Dave B]

Can we go back to talking about whether Schumacher deliberately took Hill out, or whether Hamilton should have been craned back onto the track? I miss those crazy days! :p

[SGWilko]

Can we go back to talking about whether Schumacher deliberately took Hill out, or whether Hamilton should have been craned back onto the track? I miss those crazy days! :p

Is a Jaffa cake a cake or a biscuit, and is it subject to VAT?
If a yellow flag is waved and no-one saw it, did it make a sound?
Is God really real, or is there some doubt?

[donKey jote]

We are now going into the third day of Spaniards coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories and 'alleged proof' videos to contrive a penalty, so they can give Fernando a Title. None of it stuck, because there is nothing to find. What happened to gracefully accepting defeat? Guess it went out of style some years ago...

have I missed something? as far as I can make out, the Spanish press only came up with one video (the Koba one was brought up by Englanders :p )
:dozey:

[Firstgear]

Guess it went out of style some years ago...
....when Schumacher took out Hill & then JV.
(Sorry, couldn't resist after reading Dave's post #275)

[dj_bytedisaster]

....when Schumacher took out Hill & then JV.
(Sorry, couldn't resist after reading Dave's post #275)

Nah, Schumacher only warez'ed that concept. It was a joint invention of Prost and Senna. They invented it in 1989 and presented the finished prototype in 1990 :P

[Knock-on]

Lights, Flags? Whatever. The teams needed to query it if they had the informtion in time and they didn't. Seb did complete the pass under Yellow conditions and I can tell you it's a lot easier to concentrate on the Lights nd steering wheel in this type of situation than a flag (unless you're Hamilton :D )

As for the Hulk penlty. Perfectly justified. His reckless actions took out another car and he was rightly penalised. It's not about intention or motivation but whether you dick someone elses race which he did. Silly mistake and he got the medicine.

Good end of year really and although Seb was lucky this year, a good Champion needs luck sometimes. Look at Kimis Championship! Lets hope Farrari, McLaren and hopefully Mercedes can get consistently close to Red Bull next year and then Seb will be nowhere.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Lights, Flags? Whatever. The teams needed to query it if they had the informtion in time and they didn't. Seb did complete the pass under Yellow conditions and I can tell you it's a lot easier to concentrate on the Lights nd steering wheel in this type of situation than a flag (unless you're Hamilton :D )


Only that those indicators and track-side lights don't neccessarily mean something. According to the technical regulations they are only supplemental devices. The track status is defined by the Marshal flags and CAN be indicated by lights instead of a marshal. The cockpit indicators for instance are triggered based on GPS signals, so basically you'll have to pass a light-post to trigger them on or off, which is why they stay on, if the yellow-flag zone is ended by a marshal with a green flag and this is also why there was an additional green light further down the road. It triggered the indicators off. Thos indicator lights are a help for the drivers, but they are not the defining element. The top priority lies with good old fashioned flags.

[canario]

That particular myth has been debunked yesterday. We talked about it most of the evening. There's a marshal with a green flag on the pit exit. Doesn't wash. Conspiracy over.

It's really starting to become ridiculous. We are now going into the third day of Spaniards coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories and 'alleged proof' videos to contrive a penalty, so they can give Fernando a Title. None of it stuck, because there is nothing to find. What happened to gracefully accepting defeat? Guess it went out of style some years ago...

Been reading here for a while but first post as of now.
No need to put spaniards down nor conspiracy theory... however, green light (passing allowed) starts "when" you pass it, not when you spot it down the track... Best comment would be why did the TR slow down so much b4 the green? ... as this means SV pass is then illegal.
Just my 2 cents.

[Triumph]

Andrew Benson reporting that Ferrari are compiling a case in which to appeal the overtake by Sebastian Vettel on the Toro Rosso. Story to follow apparently.



It has just been on the radio too. It appears that they are referring to the same YouTube video that was posted in this thread, and they are speculating as to whether a green flag was being displayed at the marshal's post near the end of the pit lane, which wasn't visible in the video.

The question of whether or not a flag was being displayed has surely been cleared up with the image posted from the far end of the straight, hasn't it? Or is there something we are all missing?

[gloomyDAY]

Ferrari are acting like McLaren when they lost the title in 2007. Anyone remember the fuel regulations protest put forth by Ron Dennis?

[N4D13]

Ferrari are acting like McLaren when they lost the title in 2007. Anyone remember the fuel regulations protest put forth by Ron Dennis?
You might want to wait until Ferrari actually present a formal complaint. Until then, that's just hit-and-miss.

[gloomyDAY]

You might want to wait until Ferrari actually present a formal complaint. Until then, that's just hit-and-miss.Ferrari are going to file a protest just to appease their Spaniard. Fernando Alonso is probably pressing Ferrari to file a protest. Don't believe me? He said on Twitter, "I don't believe in miracles. I make my miracles out of the correct rules." We'll see...

[dj_bytedisaster]

Been reading here for a while but first post as of now.
No need to put spaniards down nor conspiracy theory... however, green light (passing allowed) starts "when" you pass it, not when you spot it down the track... Best comment would be why did the TR slow down so much b4 the green? ... as this means SV pass is then illegal.
Just my 2 cents.

Did you even read the other posts in this thread? There was a marshal with a green flag at the exit of T3 - that's at the beginning of the straight. The pass was legit.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ferrari are going to file a protest just to appease their Spaniard. Fernando Alonso is probably pressing Ferrari to file a protest. Don't believe me? He said on Twitter, "I don't believe in miracles. I make my miracles out of the correct rules." We'll see...

LOL, couldn't do it on the track, so they are trying on the green table. Good luck with that Hombres :D

[Simmo666]

The question of whether or not a flag was being displayed has surely been cleared up with the image posted from the far end of the straight, hasn't it? Or is there something we are all missing?

From the BBC article:

A green flag is waved at that post as Vettel passes the Marussia of Charles Pic on lap three, but it is not clear whether it was still being waved on lap four.

So the BBC were already aware of the picture of the green flag. The picture from earlier was indeed from lap 3. The world feed (both main broadcast and Vettel's onboard) don't have a clear shot of that flag on lap 4 so surely that's the question outstanding.

1. There was a yellow flag on that straight at the start of lap 3.
2. The flag went green when the race control message to enable DRS was sent, before we see Vettel pass Pic (as seen in the picture from earlier).
3. At some point on lap 4 DRS was disabled again. This seems to be before Vettel gets to Vergne as the BBC clip has the DRS graphic and the text is grey - i.e. it is not available.
4. On lap 4 the light board across from the pit exit was flashing yellow when Vettel was behind Vergne (10:28 on the YouTube clip), but we can't tell whether the marshall with the green flag was still there.
5. On lap 5 when Alonso and Webber were battling on the back straight the light board across from the pit exit is now green.
6. Later on lap 5 the yellow flags were all cleared and DRS was enabled once more.

I presume they re-disabled DRS for 1 lap because the entirity of the DRS zone wasn't under green flags. The DRS zone actually encompassed part of turn 3 onto the straight, where Maldonado's crashed(?) car was, so that doesn't necessarily mean the whole back straight was under yellows either.

I guess those points doesn't clear anything up, just reaffirms the BBC comment that it's not clear if the green flag was there on lap 4 - though since it was there on lap 3, and the straight was green on lap 5, you'd think it would be.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ok, so the section was green-flagged on lap 3. As far as we know there has been no incident on that section in lap 3. Why should it be suddenly yellow-flagged again in lap 4. Doesn't make sense at all. And if you go through the 'conspiracy videos' frame-by-frame, you'll see that the Marshal is still there with his flag on lap 4 - and it doesn't look yellow.
God almighty that's 72 hours of conspiracy monging now. How sore of a loser can one be...

[TMorel]

I desperately wanted Alonso to win the championship. Had the news coming out now been of RBR using illegal fuels, dodgy wings, blackmail/bribery/aliens then I could see why the final result might need to be re-examined, but seriously, in those conditions, when it's so far from clear what actually happened even with the benefit of slowmo action replays, could any Ferrari fan, let alone Fernando himself, really gain any joy from winning a championship this way? Seb held his nerve and made an amazing recovery, can't we just celebrate a great year of wheel to wheel racing and look forward to Lewis kicking butt in 2013? I really hope everyone sees sense and they drop any thoughts of appeal.

[Simmo666]

I guess by frame-by-frame you mean like this:

http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif

That looks green to me and should hopefully settle it actually.

Would hate to see the title decided on an appeal, so I hope that's that after all.

[AndyL]

If Ferrari's appeal is successful, it won't be the first time they've got a German driver demoted for overtaking after passing a green flag.

[keysersoze]

This scenario brings to mind one of the great Indy 500 controversies--Paul Tracy's pass of Helio Castroneves on the penultimate lap of the race. It was disallowed because the yellow lights went off for a crash in the previous turn. On this side of the pond this moment is still the cause of much gnashing of teeth.

[dj_bytedisaster]

There some questions that nobody seems to be able to answer. The very first of the "evidence videos" appeared late monday evening, more than 24h after the race had ended, so :

a) why did a world wide audience, the Marshals at the exit of T3 and the entry of T4, the stewards at Interlagos and all the teams miss that 'overtake under yellow' and didn't notice until some kid came up with a choppy video?

b) Vergne was obviously giving up his position deliberately. That can be seen by how rapidly he loses ground on the cars before him. Why would he do that in a yellow-flagged zone with the green light visible in the distance?

c) Why would someone, in the title-deciding race, chose to overtake under yellow with the green light already visible? He knew that Ferrari would watch him like hawks and jump at every chance to protest and his team certainly gave Fernando the same treatement.

So for this 'yellow flag pass' myth to stick, several million of viewers as well as all officials and teams at the track would have to be blind as a bat and both Vergne and Vettel would have to be window-licking idiots. Am I the only one, who finds that a wee bit far-fetched?

[dj_bytedisaster]

There was clearly confusion on the part of the marshals. Green flags being waved, yellow lights flashing is only going to confuse those on track.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif

Sorry, but you're mistaken there. In your gif, the marshal is seen waving the flag. The last flashing yellow light was on the right side in the Senna-S (visible in the longer version of the video), so Vettel has already passed it at that time. So basically, T1 and the complete Senna-S are yellow-flagged (I think there was a car in the T1 run-off area) and the marshal at the start of the straight waves a (presumably green) flag, thus ending the yellow-flag zone. Looks pretty clear cut to me, especially since there are no further lights on the straight until we come to the green light after the completion of the pass.

[big_sw2000]

Sorry, but you're mistaken there. In your gif, the marshal is seen waving the flag. The last flashing yellow light was on the right side in the Senna-S (visible in the longer version of the video), so Vettel has already passed it at that time. So basically, T1 and the complete Senna-S are yellow-flagged (I think there was a car in the T1 run-off area) and the marshal at the start of the straight waves a (presumably green) flag, thus ending the yellow-flag zone. Looks pretty clear cut to me, especially since there are no further lights on the straight until we come to the green light after the completion of the pass.

Accutally i have to agree with this. The last yellow flag as you say was in the Senna S, on the outside of the track. The green flag waved on the inside of the track, then ends that yellow section.
The next light bord, after the last yellow board, then also has to show green. Just happens that this is at the end of the straight. The yellow warning light on the dash of the car, is controled by GPS, the same system that controls the lights.
Now im under the impression, that drivers have to obay the flags, and that the lights are just extra visual warnings around the track.
Also i may be wrong with this, but the yellow dash indicator, is that to show the driver they are currently in a yellow section, or to warn the driver there are yellows some where on the track.

Steve

[dj_bytedisaster]

No I am not mistaken thank you very much. The gif shows a green flag being waved before Vettel made the pass on Vergne which means he has grounds to claim the pass was legal. There were yellow lights after the green flag (before the green light too) which is why confusion has been caused by this incident.

Disagree again. The last yellow flashing light was on the outside of turn 3, maybe 50m before that booth. There are absolutely no lights or waved flags until the next light, which was green and is located at the opposite side of the marshal booth before the entry of turn 4.
Check the track diagram on fia.com -> HERE (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/championships/f1/2012/brazil/Pages/circuit.aspx/)
It clearly shows that there are no lights between the two marshal booths on the straight. It also shows, where the last yellow light is in T3 :p

[big_sw2000]

No I am not mistaken thank you very much. The gif shows a green flag being waved before Vettel made the pass on Vergne which means he has grounds to claim the pass was legal. There were yellow lights after the green flag (before the green light too) which is why confusion has been caused by this incident.

I hate to argue with a fellow Welshy, but the green flag is deffently after the last yellow light.

Steve

[big_sw2000]

That part of my post no longer exists as it was incorrect.

All good then lol ;)


Steve

[big_sw2000]

I'm not Welsh I'm from Stratford-upon-Avon but married a Welsh girl after meeting her at Uni. I've lived in Cardiff for 11 years now. I got married near Abergavenny as a matter of fact. :)

Welsh enough for me, now things will be diffrent, if you support the English rugby team.

Steve

[big_sw2000]

I don't follow rugby which often causes some of the butty's here to look at you like you are a homosexual when you admit that lol. I'm purely a motorsport fan as I spent my childhood going to events at Silverstone instead of football matches (rugby's not as universally popular in England in my experience). Never understood the rivalry with the rugby sides. The we hate you because you hate us stance never really made any sense to me? I didn't realise there was a rivalry until I moved to Wales so it shows how deep that goes lol. My wife is from the Valley's so I often struggle talking sport with her family and friends and they just don't get F1. Looking forward to the MotoGP circuit being built at Rassau Ebbw Vale in the next few years however and hopefully that will bring motorsport interest to the area. :)

Sorry off topic.

PS: If I ever watch Rugby I support Wales as everyone I watch with usually does, and I could now technically play for Wales but I'm too old :p .


Last off topic.

I was only joking lol.

Steve

[AndyL]

Whatever it turns out the flags are showing, Monaco 2010 showed that the FIA consider themselves at liberty to ignore them if the marshals' flags did not reflect what race control intended. (There, the stewards decided that safety car conditions were still in force even though the marshals had mistakenly taken in the SC boards and shown green flags.)

Nevertheless it's hard to imagine anyone at the FIA being foolhardy enough to change the WDC result at this stage.

[big_sw2000]

Sorry had to post this

Ferrari, to challange Christmas

Ferrari to challenge Christmas « Sniff Petrol (http://sniffpetrol.com/2012/11/29/ferrari-to-challenge-christmas/)

Steve