VW-duo Ogier & Latvala - friends or foes ?

[A.F.F.]

With no offense, I left Mikkelsen out from the title :)

What do you think, Ogier, who is urge to win and compete, had to test Polo and drive Skoda the whole season, the last season Loeb did all the rallies and then comes in Latvala, to the ready table setting and was allowed to rally all season... what do you think, shall he keep himself as the first driver of the team? Hasn't VW announced that they will have no 1.st and 2nd drivers? One thing is for sure though.... should Latvala crash next year, it won't be Ogier to comfort him and tap his shoulder? I predict a fierce fight in the team. Both drivers very fast. Both drivers keen to make mistakes from time to time. Both drivers drive for win not only a rally but for every stage. It's like Senna vs Prost except either one of them is Prost :p :

[Sulland]

And when the two other 'crash and burn' Mikkelsen will be there to pick up points!

[stefanvv]

This have to be something worth watching isn't it? Let me see...
Ogier has shown some maturity this year working on VW development program. In Monte he still probably had the adrenaline from last year, which led him to overdrive S2000 Fabia. From then on, he is nothing but consistent in speed and winning, well may the competition was not strong enough, but in some Rallies Mikkelsen put him a fight, didn't he? until something wrong happened to him.
Latvala had the speed to challenge Loeb this year (as Ogier did last one), he just didn't had the consistency for one reason or another (Ford also didn't impressed me with some of their tactics). Second part of his season is somewhat what he should do if he wants WDC crown - As fast as only he can be, whenever he can, and take more calm approach when he doesn't have the chance for something more in the event.
Both of them have the speed and the ambition to become WDC next year on every cost. If VW don't make team orders in 2/3 of the season, this would be one hell of fight. Both of them will use every inch of the road they can find more speed. Probably Polo won't have the speed of Citroen/Ford right out the box, but these 2 can compensate that I believe. In some events the luck might favor one, in others the other one. If there is finish for at least one of them, this will be probably the most spectacular season in recent years.

[pettersolberg29]

I think it's a battle Ogier will comfortably win I'm afraid, and I can see JML getting fed up. The Polo is unlikely to be 100% reliable right from the start (even being German!) and the last thing JML needs is mechanical issues as well as driver errors! I'd even suggest that Mikkelsen will get roughly the same amount of points as JML over 8 events simply by getting regular top 5s while Latvala fights for top 3 or retires.

[stefanvv]

I'm not convinced about that. The main reason Latvala to crash (as Ogier) was Loeb being light years ahead.

[pettersolberg29]

I'm not convinced about that. The main reason Latvala to crash (as Ogier) was Loeb being light years ahead.

That is true, and something I've mentioned in another thread some time so I do agree in part. However some drivers are just like that, and I feel like JML is just not a complete driver regardless of the opposition. Rapid, undoubtedly. Talented, yes. True champion driver, not sure.

Maybe a new team and not having to push as much will help him, however I see an almost Loeb-like dominance from Ogier if the VW is a good enough car for the forseeable future until Mikkelsen or Neuville reach their potential. Whatever happens, 2013 is bound to be interesting with 4 or 5 really quick drivers who are relatively evenly matched, a new team and 2 or 3 young guns going for it - plus I can't wait to see how the new Ford team plays out.

[Mintexmemory]

I fail to understand why so many people think that the Polo won't be competitive / reliable from the start. I'm absolutely certain that it will be the car to beat and that Mikko will once again be looking to pick up points when the VW pair crash /retire. If they finish a rally they will be ahead of the rest. Since JM has improved on tarmac it will be a very even match. As for the guys being foes, I doubt it - they may not be buddy-buddy but provided that they get a fair team management I'm sure they will both be respectful of each other. I'm a fan of both drivers, both have different strengths and weaknesses but they are both the most gifted guys rallying next year. Mikkelsen will not get a drive if it depends on either of the 1st team failing.

[kober]

The Polo is unlikely to be 100% reliable right from the start (even being German!) and the last thing JML needs is mechanical issues as well as driver errors!Except, that according to VW people, the reliability is already there, but the speed is not. They hope that Polo will score a podium, or maybe a win, in the second half of the year. I find it overly optimistic (i.e. not realistic) that VW will be a title contender in 2013. In 2014? Yes, probably. But not sooner than that.

[pettersolberg29]

Except, that according to VW people, the reliability is already there, but the speed is not. They hope that Polo will score a podium, or maybe a win, in the second half of the year. I find it overly optimistic (i.e. not realistic) that VW will be a title contender in 2013. In 2014? Yes, probably. But not sooner than that.

Then I bow to superior knowledge as I haven't seen this info. It wouldn't surprise me being VW if they were really reliable but I was just basing it on lack of real rally experience with the Polo yet. I agree regarding the title - it's a totally new project, a revolution not evolution and it's unlikely to be the best car right from the off even with excellent funding and testing. By the mid-point maybe, but I'd be surprised - happy, but surprised - if it won any rallies on pure pace alone before the mid-season break, even with the 2 quickest drivers on board.

[pettersolberg29]

Mikkelsen will not get a drive if it depends on either of the 1st team failing.

Mikkelsen is getting a 3rd Polo from the third round onwards, for 8 rounds in total, regardless of the top 2 drivers.

[kober]

Then I bow to superior knowledge as I haven't seen this info.The last 75 seconds of the video: WRC 2012 Italy [Sardegna] Day 3 - Part 1/2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeP1Ha2Qu2Y) (Jost Capito interview)

[stefanvv]

I fail to understand why so many people think that the Polo won't be competitive / reliable from the start.

I think VW made this car very reliable in first place, best speed possible was not an issue at first glance. That was what Capito said "It is easier to make strong car faster, than fast car stronger". Perhaps that was something Ford was missing. Latest test however show some improvement in the speed, they seem to have new engine, try different setups on it, some aerodynamics packages, etc. Looks like hard work on speed improvement lately, and it does look fast in some videos, but until we see it in action side-by-side with Citroen/Ford, we can only guess.
That is probably where Ogier/Latvala will come in - adding more speed if it is needed.

[Humber]

I hope VW has learned from the Dakar situations between Sainz and Al Attiyah to establish the WRC rally team rules before the start of the season.

e.g http://youtu.be/g9kVYHsc_80

[pettersolberg29]

I hope VW has learned from the Dakar situations between Sainz and Al Attiyah to establish the WRC rally team rules before the start of the season.

e.g 2011 Dakar | Al-Attiyah vs Sainz - YouTube (http://youtu.be/g9kVYHsc_80)

Never seen that clip before - mental! Makes me respect Dakar Rally, the drivers but most of all the cars even more.

[stefanvv]

I hope VW has learned from the Dakar situations between Sainz and Al Attiyah to establish the WRC rally team rules before the start of the season.

e.g 2011 Dakar | Al-Attiyah vs Sainz - YouTube (http://youtu.be/g9kVYHsc_80)

Wow :D Looks like everybody won here, Sainz, spectators, except Al Attiyah. The big victory is for VW :D - strong machine

[SubaruNorway]

Mikkelsen is getting a 3rd Polo from the third round onwards, for 8 rounds in total, regardless of the top 2 drivers.

No, from the 4th round in Portugal. Skipping MC, Sweden and Mexico. And i guess they won't bring a 3rd car to the long haul events in Argentina and Australia...

[stefanvv]

No, from the 4th round in Portugal. Skipping MC, Sweden and Mexico. And i guess they won't bring a 3rd car to the long haul events in Argentina and Australia...

Nope, 8 rounds in Europe only.

[Franky]

I hope VW has learned from the Dakar situations between Sainz and Al Attiyah to establish the WRC rally team rules before the start of the season.

e.g 2011 Dakar | Al-Attiyah vs Sainz - YouTube (http://youtu.be/g9kVYHsc_80)

So, when will they start doing group starts like in cycling and airing the stages live? :D

[bluuford]

So, when will they start doing group starts like in cycling and airing the stages live? :D

They are doing group starts on some days (at least for bikes).. and they have some live coverage as well. I remember watchin this footage for much longer than it is in this video. It was scary!

[pettersolberg29]

No, from the 4th round in Portugal. Skipping MC, Sweden and Mexico. And i guess they won't bring a 3rd car to the long haul events in Argentina and Australia...

Sorry, forgot about Mexico! But yehh knew it was from Portugal and for 8 rounds. Guess it wouldn't include the long haul ones like you say.

[Gard]

No, from the 4th round in Portugal. Skipping MC, Sweden and Mexico. And i guess they won't bring a 3rd car to the long haul events in Argentina and Australia...
To bad he'll have to do without the Polo on his home ground.

[spiderem]

I hope VW has learned from the Dakar situations between Sainz and Al Attiyah to establish the WRC rally team rules before the start of the season.

e.g 2011 Dakar | Al-Attiyah vs Sainz - YouTube (http://youtu.be/g9kVYHsc_80)
That's insane!!!

[pettersolberg29]

To bad he'll have to do without the Polo on his home ground.

Agreed - would fancy him as a dark horse for a podium on the white stuff. Wait for 2014 and top step may even be an option if we're lucky!

[Sulland]

Understand that this is a production speed issue. Timewindow btw homologation and producing 3 cars before season start is to narrow.

Will he then be driving a Skoda for the 3 first, or just training with the Polo mule?

[Mintexmemory]

I'm curious to see how this 2 teams thing shakes down. Clearly there is a big plan on the wall at VW HQ (the potential surprise push through the Ardennes at Boucles time has been covered up though).
I would have thought concentrating all your efforts on just 2 cars for the first season would have been the least risky option. That they are increasing the number of cars to be serviced so soon indicates to me that they are feeling pretty confident about their product

[CWJ]

Will he then be driving a Skoda for the 3 first, or just training with the Polo mule?

VW will run only Polo next year. All Skodas for sale after Spain.

[EightGear]

From autosport magazine:

VW keeps junior team

Volkswagen’s junior rally team willcontinue next year, most likely in the formof individually-tailored programmes. The

manufacturer will sell its Skoda Fabia S2000sand farm out the team, which is likely toinclude kevin Abbring and Sepp Wiegand.

[EightGear]

VW will run only Polo next year. All Skodas for sale after Spain.

Yeah, Autosport magazine says the VW junior team will continue next year, "most likely in the form of individually-tailored programmes. The manufacturer will sell its Skoda Fabia S2000s and farm out the team, which is likely to include Kevin Abbring and Sepp Wiegand."

Also confirmation Sardinia will still be the Italian WRC round in 2013.

[Mintexmemory]

Great, an early summer break to Sardinia sounds good!!

[Leon]

there was a rumour in a greek site about Carlos Sainz driving 2 events in 2013 with the Polo, one of them being Acropolis. Any confirmation?

[alleskids]

the rumour is that Carlos Sainz AND Luis Moya will make a sort of 1 off comeback in either Greece or Argentina

[RS]

I'm not sure VW have got the dynamic right in the team. A lot of the succesful partnerships in motorsport have been where there is one dominant and one submissive driver instead of trying too hard to beat each other (Loeb/Sordo, Loeb/Hirvonen, Gronholm/Hirvonen, Schumacher/Massa/Barrichello/Irvine, Vettel/Webber...)

I would still like to see the manufacturer scoring rules change so that others drivers of that make can mop up the points when the nominated ones crash out.

[spiderem]

Just read that from seb ogier website
"Une chose est claire depuis le jour où j’ai rejoint Volkswagen : il n’est pas question qu’il y ait un pilote numéro 1 dans l’équipe. C’est un point important que j’ai exigé au moment de signer mon contrat avec VW et il s’avère que le team et moi avons la même vision des choses à ce sujet"
He says that when he joined VW he specifically ask for no no1 pilot! And that they will fight freely until mid season when VW will decide who they will back up for the final push for the championship...
I was under the impression as he signed 1st with VW he would have asked for no1 status...

[dimviii]

risky politic from vw imho.

[spiderem]

risky politic from vw imho.
yep, looks like we will some epic fights next year, but loads of crash too...

[stefanvv]

Just read that from seb ogier website
"Une chose est claire depuis le jour où j’ai rejoint Volkswagen : il n’est pas question qu’il y ait un pilote numéro 1 dans l’équipe. C’est un point important que j’ai exigé au moment de signer mon contrat avec VW et il s’avère que le team et moi avons la même vision des choses à ce sujet"
He says that when he joined VW he specifically ask for no no1 pilot! And that they will fight freely until mid season when VW will decide who they will back up for the final push for the championship...
I was under the impression as he signed 1st with VW he would have asked for no1 status...

I'm bit confused, so Ogier asked for N1 status the whole season, but still hopes the fight will be inplace until mid season :confused:

[Mintexmemory]

I'm bit confused, so Ogier asked for N1 status the whole season, but still hopes the fight will be inplace until mid season :confused:

Read carefully he asked for no (pas de) no. (full stop missing to denote abbreviation) 1
In other words the opposite to Citroen!!

[Mintexmemory]

More accurate translation

'One thing is clear since the day I joined Volkswagen: there is no question of there being a number 1 driver in the team. This is an important point that I insisted on when signing my contract with VW and it turns out that the team and I have the same vision concering this.
(French girlfriend ;) )

I think this is demonstration of how much more mature SebO is becoming in a 'dream team' you need to start with complete equality of opportunity so that when one has the advantage the other can't complain and if there is no advantage then no one's mapping is altered ;)

[stefanvv]

Read carefully he asked for no (pas de) no. (full stop missing to denote abbreviation) 1
In other words the opposite to Citroen!!

Yeess, I missed 1 no, thanks. I think this is good for us the spectators, but may be some cars will be trashed...

[tfp]

Just read that from seb ogier website
"Une chose est claire depuis le jour où j’ai rejoint Volkswagen : il n’est pas question qu’il y ait un pilote numéro 1 dans l’équipe. C’est un point important que j’ai exigé au moment de signer mon contrat avec VW et il s’avère que le team et moi avons la même vision des choses à ce sujet"
He says that when he joined VW he specifically ask for no no1 pilot! And that they will fight freely until mid season when VW will decide who they will back up for the final push for the championship...
I was under the impression as he signed 1st with VW he would have asked for no1 status...

Ogier has balls of steel!

[sollitt]

This is how WRC teams used to be not so long ago. Nothing new or radical here. Good sporting attitude by Ogier though.

[Mintexmemory]

Ogier has balls of steel!


couilles d'acier ;)

[stefanvv]

This is how WRC teams used to be not so long ago. Nothing new or radical here. Good sporting attitude by Ogier though.

Nothing new in Rallying sounds good to me :D

[spiderem]

Although when ogier moved to Citroen he asked the same, and finally got screwed... Maybe it's just Quenel who had no testies and couldn't do what he promised him.

[stefanvv]

Although when ogier moved to Citroen he asked the same, and finally got screwed... Maybe it's just Quenel who had no testies and couldn't do what he promised him.

Quensel was just a puppet as it appeared.

[Mintexmemory]

Although when ogier moved to Citroen he asked the same, and finally got screwed... Maybe it's just Quenel who had no testies and couldn't do what he promised him.
Do you have a source for that - as SebO was promoted from Citroen Junior , presumably he still had an existing contract which would not have been favourable to him as equal to the God of Alsace when it was originally agreed in 2008/9. ;)

[spiderem]

Do you have a source for that - as SebO was promoted from Citroen Junior , presumably he still had an existing contract which would not have been favourable to him as equal to the God of Alsace when it was originally agreed in 2008/9. ;)
No I didn't read his contract unfortunately. But for sure, at the beginning of 2011 he made interviews and comments that let us think and believe that he asked and was given equal status to loeb...
Surely his contract was reviewed when he moved from junior team to full time main factory driver...

[Mintexmemory]

It just occurred to me as I was walking to work this fine autumn morning that tfp was probably referring to the petanque set that SebO owns - he lovingly polishes them before every game.
I enjoy polishing my petanque set too (apparently the French don't use the expression 'double entendre'!)

[tfp]

It just occurred to me as I was walking to work this fine autumn morning that tfp was probably referring to the petanque set that SebO owns - he lovingly polishes them before every game.
I enjoy polishing my petanque set too (apparently the French don't use the expression 'double entendre'!)

:D :D
Of course, that was what I was referring to ;) Either way, I wouldnt fancy them on the end of my nose for a wart.

Back to this thread though - What if Mikkelsen is to jump both Seb and JM....? He cant put a foot wrong at the minute even if he tried, and stranger things have happened in motorsport...

[stefanvv]

Back to this thread though - What if Mikkelsen is to jump both Seb and JM....? He cant put a foot wrong at the minute even if he tried, and stranger things have happened in motorsport...

If you mean something like "the privateer Ostberg beats both Ford factory drivers?!?" :) , I don't think it will be possible with his short programme in the first place. On the other hand I think Ogier & Latvala will make good team in terms of sportsmanship and not trying to "eat" (ignore) themselves eachother (and therefore failing down), as other team-mates in the past, mostly both French drivers though - weird.

But the Ford story this year is strange anyway, it wasn't because of bad team atmosphere in any case...

[pettersolberg29]

I'm a huge fan of Mikkelsen and believe he'll be World Champion in the next 5 years, however it's ambitious to think he'd be quicker than Ogier and JML this year. Perhaps he could come close on snow but think he'll be more of a competitor on stages as opposed to across whole rallies.

[Federov]

I can see things getting ugly if JML has a few early offs this year and starts to get shoved down to #2 if he feels he otherwise has the pace.

Of course, I'm also counting on him to be in the top 3 this year so the situation doesn't seem THAT plausible.

I like JML and hope he can really blast off this year.

Just wish everyone got one more full run at Loeb; even though he'd most likely win. Again.