Roumour: Porsche coming to F1??

[dj_bytedisaster]

Porsche preparing for F1? (http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35278:f1--rumour-mill-starts-to-roll-as-porsche-recruits-former-formula-1-personnel&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157)

Now that's an interesting rumour :D

It would make sense in a way. A Le Mans program is expensive and may of the results can be sort of used in a potential F1 endeavour. I also doubt that Porsche would leave the playing field to Mercedes as the sole German premium brand in F1, even though Merc has so far done their utmost to embarrass themselves.
2014 would actually be a sensible choice to enter F1. All the engine manufacturers have to start from scratch and with only three comitted so far, Porsche would surely be a very welcome addition.

[Ranger]

Porsche preparing for F1? (http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35278:f1--rumour-mill-starts-to-roll-as-porsche-recruits-former-formula-1-personnel&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157)

Now that's an interesting rumour :D

It would make sense in a way. A Le Mans program is expensive and may of the results can be sort of used in a potential F1 endeavour. I also doubt that Porsche would leave the playing field to Mercedes as the sole German premium brand in F1, even though Merc has so far done their utmost to embarrass themselves.
2014 would actually be a sensible choice to enter F1. All the engine manufacturers have to start from scratch and with only three comitted so far, Porsche would surely be a very welcome addition.

Le Mans is by far a better alternative for them at the moment. Hopefully they will stay there for many years to come.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Staying too long can backfire. Audi has been dominating Le Mans and endurance racing in general for several years. While winning is a good marketing tool, winning too much can come back to bite you in the arse as people get sick of it.
Our forum is a classic example. While we have only one pathological Vettel hater at the moment, Garry might be building up a following if Vettel wins another title or two on the trot.
So I think if Porsche is clever, they'll cash in on some Le Mans wins and then hand over the cars to the privateers, while switching over to F1.

[Big Ben]

I agree. If Vettel wins another one it is time to say bye bye before people get sick of him and his finger.

[wedge]

Staying too long can backfire. Audi has been dominating Le Mans and endurance racing in general for several years. While winning is a good marketing tool, winning too much can come back to bite you in the arse as people get sick of it.
Our forum is a classic example. While we have only one pathological Vettel hater at the moment, Garry might be building up a following if Vettel wins another title or two on the trot.
So I think if Porsche is clever, they'll cash in on some Le Mans wins and then hand over the cars to the privateers, while switching over to F1.

The 2014 rules were in place to support Audi into F1 but Audi did a U turn.

They would rather do Le Mans and quite rightly so as their motorsport programs promotes their relevant technology which is of little benefit in F1. Hybrid technology has greater use in endurance racing which is a view Gordon Murray advocates.

[schmenke]

I agree. If Vettel wins another one it is time to say bye bye before people get sick of him and his finger.

No. The FIA will simply change the regulations once again to "level the playing field".

[dj_bytedisaster]

No. The FIA will simply change the regulations once again to "level the playing field".

Probably BTCC style reversed grids to get him off pole position :D

[gloomyDAY]

I'd love to see another German manufacturer in F1, but I doubt it will happen. Didn't Porsche run into major money issues not too long ago?


Probably BTCC style reversed grids to get him off pole position :D Not funny, bro.

[inimitablestoo]

This is one of those rumours that comes around every year or two. Can't see it happening until the Le Mans programme is over, and seeing that it won't begin until 2014, that puts it at around 2017 at the earliest, probably.

Mind you, at least under the current rules they can't cock it up by developing a flat-12 that weighs about a ton more than every other engine on the grid. Memories of that disastrous '91 engine must surely have put Porsche off for so long, but enough time has passed by now that they might think about trying again - while drawing on the more successful '60s F1 cars and the '80s TAG Porsche engines and forgetting the Footwork in their PR...

[Rollo]

As far as I'm aware, VAG owns 30.9% of Porsche. I wonder then what commercial advantage there is for the two kiddies to be playing in the same paddling pool. Whilst VAG is in Endurance Racing, Porsche probably won't field an entry, so F1 is not as wild a thought as it first looks.

At the moment, it is just rumour but it does give magazines the chance to get excited and hyperventilate into a paper sack.

[donKey jote]

Didn't Porsche run into major money issues not too long ago?
.

Not really, they only tried to get control of VW at the same time VW were trying to control Porsche, so in the end they both merged, with VW gaining control of Porsche... and viceversa :p

[wedge]

At the moment, it is just rumour but it does give magazines the chance to get excited and hyperventilate into a paper sack.

Germany's AMuS does credible reporting. For instance last year they exclusively publicised MGP's W-duct.

[zako85]

No. The FIA will simply change the regulations once again to "level the playing field".

This field will be leveled as is after 2013. This is why I think it could kind of make sense for Vettel to move to Ferrari in 2014, after having won four titles with RBR.

[zako85]

I don't think there is a big commercial sense for a company like Porsche to enter F1. Porsche does not sell that many cars. Let's say they need a budget of at least 50 million euros per year for engine development and production. Realistically, the budget would have to be twice as much. If Porsche decides to setup its own team, then they need some 60-120 million budget for the team as well. Then assuming they succeed, they would need to be able to sell perhaps 10,000 cars more each year simply to recoup the F1 expenses, but success in not guaranteed. Porsche sells only something like 50,000 cars or less per year. F1 marketing would have to boost their sales for 20-30% to make the effort worthwhile. Audi entering F1 would make a lot more sense as they build and sell globally close to a million cars a year. Porsche could afford to enter F1 is it could find a co-sponsor, like TAG in the 80s.

[Koz]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Audi or Lamborghini to enter F1?

Audi as a direct competitor to Mercedes. They have plenty of money.

Lamborghini doesn't have as much money, but they are pretty close to Ferrari in terms of public view (is pedigree the word I'm looking for?). It could boost their sales closer in line with Ferrari, which I assume they can handle (production wise) and want to do.
It'll also give Audi some benefits in marketing - Audi R6 by Lamborghini? Certainly that would be attractive to buyers, no?

None of this will happen. It is for La Mans only.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Why shouldn't Lambo have any money? :o They are owned by Audi, which as you said has gobs of it. An F1 entry for Audi doesn't make sense, because they are seen as big bloated VW's that aren't quite as ****, so it's the wrong market segment. VW itself, which owns Audi, cannot possibly enter F1. It'd be ridiculous. The best bet are to enter as one of their subsidiaries Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti or Porsche. Personally, I would prefer Lamborghini - now that would make for hilarious brawls at Monza each year :D

And if they go for hillarity they could use the Skoda brand to enter or better yet, sign Alonso and enter as Seat :D

[zako85]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Audi or Lamborghini to enter F1?



For Lamborghini to enter F1 to sell more Lamboghini cars can't be profitable. Too small of a business to afford marketing though F1. Being in F1 makes sense for Ferrari because Ferrari always viewed and treated F1 primarily as a form of business in itself, kind of like McLaren, as opposed to being primarily marketing platform for Ferrari's road cars. If you look at the numbers, Ferrari probably doesn't sell anywhere near as many cars per year (about 5,000) to fund its F1 division. The F1 division runs for profit, with the money of its sponsors, as well as TV rights money. Promoting Ferrari's road cars is a nice side effect of its F1 operation. Companies like Lotus or Lamborghini are too small to afford F1 IMO without additional sponsorship money. Ferrari is different because it started originally as a pure F1 business that always was profitable by itself, adding a road car division later on.

[dj_bytedisaster]

You seem to forget at which prices they sell their cars. Almost all Ferraris cost way north of 100.000 quid. Sell 5.000 cars at 100.000 quid and that'll be 500.000.000 monies. Throw in the fact that the team is almost completely financed by sponsors and you'll see what an insanely sweet deal that is.

[Koz]

Why shouldn't Lambo have any money? :o They are owned by Audi, which as you said has gobs of it.

Lamborghini has been losing big money for the past 4 years.


An F1 entry for Audi doesn't make sense, because they are seen as big bloated VW's that aren't quite as ****, so it's the wrong market segment.
And an F1 entry could potentially change that view, prestige is what they lack.


VW itself, which owns Audi, cannot possibly enter F1. It'd be ridiculous. The best bet are to enter as one of their subsidiaries Lambo, Bentley, Bugatti or Porsche. Personally, I would prefer Lamborghini - now that would make for hilarious brawls at Monza each year :D

And if they go for hillarity they could use the Skoda brand to enter or better yet, sign Alonso and enter as Seat :D [/QUOTE]

I wanna see football-esque riots in Monza when Lambo beats Ferrari.
What's Flavio doing these days?
I can see him managing Lamborghini F1. :D

[zako85]

Why shouldn't Lambo have any money? :o They are owned by Audi, which as you said has gobs of it.


Why would VAG throw money at promoting a brand like Laborghini if this brand will not sell anywhere enough cars to recoup the cost of F1 participation. Try to do the math. By how many cars Lamborghini's sales have to increase to recoup the 100 to 200 million euros spent on F1 effort each year? It will never happen IMO. This is why a local boutique restaurant will never afford to pay for TV commercials during any major sports event, but McDonalds can, because they have the scale of operation that can benefit from an expensive marketing campaign on TV. Entering F1 makes sense for brands like Volkswagen and Audi because they certainly have the scale of recoup the costs of F1 through higher car sales. Audi has been a very profitable brand over the last 10 years, I believe overtaking BMW in sales, and it certainly has the image of building fast, powerful cars with good handling in the "go fast crowd" (regardless of the reality of their cars lives up to it).

[zako85]

You seem to forget at which prices they sell their cars. Almost all Ferraris cost way north of 100.000 quid. Sell 5.000 cars at 100.000 quid and that'll be 500.000.000 monies. Throw in the fact that the team is almost completely financed by sponsors and you'll see what an insanely sweet deal that is.

This premise is unrealistic. Lamborghini sells less than 2000 cars a year. If their enter F1 and have a successful season (and that is a big IF), I don't see their sales doubling because of that.

Next, building an selling a 100,000 quid car should cost A LOT. It should cost something to produce this car, shouldn't it? Let's start with dealerships. They always get their fat cut. Considering that each dealership probably moves just a few dozen cars per year, they probably demand a nice profit margin. Then there are the costs of R&D and production. The company's profit margin on selling a 100,000 quid car can be much better than say on a Volkswagen Polo, but I still don't see it being more than say 40%. I just don't see the numbers adding up to be able to afford F1. As for sponsors, they're not stupid to pour a lot of money into a run out of the mill team, even if it has an attractive name.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Lamborghini sells definitely more cars than Ferrari, yet they cost 60.000 to 100.000 quid. I don't think VW would retain the brand if they sold just 2.000 cars a year.
No F1 team costs 200.000.000 these days. The costs are capped. 200M was Ferrari money in the nineties and then there's the fact that most of the teams budget would be paid by sponsors.

[dj_bytedisaster]

This premise is unrealistic. Lamborghini sells less than 2000 cars a year. If their enter F1 and have a successful season (and that is a big IF), I don't see their sales doubling because of that.

Next, building an selling a 100,000 quid car should cost A LOT. It should cost something to produce this car, shouldn't it? Let's start with dealerships. They always get their fat cut. Considering that each dealership probably moves just a few dozen cars per year, they probably demand a nice profit margin. Then there are the costs of R&D and production. The company's profit margin on selling a 100,000 quid car can be much better than say on a Volkswagen Polo, but I still don't see it being more than say 40%. I just don't see the numbers adding up to be able to afford F1. As for sponsors, they're not stupid to pour a lot of money into a run out of the mill team, even if it has an attractive name.

Modern day Lambos share a lot of parts with Audis. The profit margin on Lambo's is quite insane. I'm a freelance software engineer and I've worked in the VW development department in Wolfsburg three times over the last 11 years. Believe me, the only car they don't make a killing with is the Bugatti Veyron.

EDIT: Just checked my old KPI documents from 2010. You were indeed right. About 2.500 cars was actually the peak performance of Lamborghini. Don't know if they surpassed that in 2011 or 2012 as '10 was my so far last project with them (have a new offer for Jan '13 though :D ). But back then that included things like the Superveloce and the Reventon, so they still earned loads of money with them.

[Hawkmoon]

Lamborghini tried F1 in the '90's as an engine supplier and, to put it bluntly, they sucked. Of course, they weren't owned by ze Germans at the time so maybe a little common sense German engineering may give them a better shot at success. If they do enter F1 I think it would be as an engine supplier rather than as a complete team. It's simply too expensive and the return on the investement isn't there. Lamborghini have no racing pedigree so they'd have to be very successful in F1 for the on track results to boost car sales.

[Koz]

Lamborghini sells definitely more cars than Ferrari, yet they cost 60.000 to 100.000 quid. I don't think VW would retain the brand if they sold just 2.000 cars a year.
No F1 team costs 200.000.000 these days. The costs are capped. 200M was Ferrari money in the nineties and then there's the fact that most of the teams budget would be paid by sponsors.

In no way does Lamborghini sell more cars than Ferrari.

Lamborghini is far more exclusive than Ferrari - which is it's selling point. They may or may not want to change this as they have smaller production limits for their cars than Ferrari.

According to wikipedia it's 1600 to Ferrari's 7000. It sounds reasonable.

[Koz]

If they do enter F1 I think it would be as an engine supplier rather than as a complete team. It's simply too expensive and the return on the investement isn't there. Lamborghini have no racing pedigree so they'd have to be very successful in F1 for the on track results to boost car sales.

If there is a rule change in 2014, then it's a brilliant idea. Enter as an engine manufacturer, supply a team like STR or Sauber and if the engine proves successful buy the team out. (As if this hasn't been done before :o )

[Mekola]

In case they returned to F1 hope they won't repeat the fiasco of 1991 with Footwork...

[dj_bytedisaster]

In no way does Lamborghini sell more cars than Ferrari.

Lamborghini is far more exclusive than Ferrari - which is it's selling point. They may or may not want to change this as they have smaller production limits for their cars than Ferrari.

According to wikipedia it's 1600 to Ferrari's 7000. It sounds reasonable.

I already corrected that with an earlier post. I don't know if the wiki numbers are correct. In 2010 is were about 2.500 IIRC (I worked at VW at the time).

[zako85]

Modern day Lambos share a lot of parts with Audis. The profit margin on Lambo's is quite insane. I'm a freelance software engineer and I've worked in the VW development department in Wolfsburg three times over the last 11 years. Believe me, the only car they don't make a killing with is the Bugatti Veyron.

Of course, some technology is shared with VW, but not enough to make a Lamborghini car have a cost of an Audi A4. Let's get real here. Lamborghini Gallardo is said to be using various VW technogies, and VW took some things from Gallardo to Audi, but it's not like Lamborghini is putting a Passat engine or interior into Gallardo. The V12 Lambos share even less with other VAG cars.

But still, try to run the numbers. Sharing technology with VW is actually the thing that makes building Lamborghinis worthwhile at all. If Laborghini was independent, they'd go bust on their own a long time ago. Once engine development freeze is over, expect a top engine manufacturer to put close to 100 million Euros into its development program every year. Doubling or tripping road car sales simply due to having a part in F1 business is highly unrealistic for any company. If F1 program helps RedBull or Renault to increase these sales by something like 5%, that may cover all or most of their F1 participation expenses.

I know it's really fun to fantasize about seeing something like Lamborghini or Aston Martin in F1, but in reality it works well only for selling large multinational brands.

[Malbec]

I know it's really fun to fantasize about seeing something like Lamborghini or Aston Martin in F1, but in reality it works well only for selling large multinational brands.

Agreed.

Anyway as long as Piech wields influence at VAG none of their brands will enter F1.

[Jag_Warrior]

As a fan, I would rather see another exotic brand enter F1, like Lamborghini. But as Zako85 said, from a business perspective, it probably wouldn't make much sense. I would rather see Porsche stick with Le Mans and sports car racing. Although I loved it when Jaguar entered F1, I would have MUCH preferred to see Jag back at Le Mans building and racing swoopy LMP's. Certain brands belong in certain series or types of racing, IMO. I wouldn't mind seeing Audi enter F1. But as I think someone said above, Audi has successfully used Le Mans and ALMS to develop some rather cutting edge road car technologies over the years. And F1 would not further that effort. But if there is to be a VAG associated brand in F1, I would like to see it be Audi.

[BDunnell]

Certain brands belong in certain series or types of racing, IMO.

Yes.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well, these are the brands that belong to the VW empire:

VW, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Seat, Skoda, Ducati, MAN, Scania.

Considering that we had/have "mainstream" car companies, like Honda, Toyota, Renault etc. I think VW has a few options. The main brand itself wouldn't make any sense, as they are mainly associated with Dakar racing (and WRC lately). But a SEAT entry wouldn't have been so far out of the way, except that Alonso would probably be too old before they can get it flying. With so many people not aware of the VW web of marques, even a SEAT-Porsche team would have made sense - double PR win.

But I think, if it should ever take off, Porsche would be the brand to go. They've won some races in F1 in the sixties and had a successfull association with McLaren and I'm sure they would love to erase the memory of the 1990 farce.

[Malbec]

Well, these are the brands that belong to the VW empire:

VW, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Seat, Skoda, Ducati, MAN, Scania.

Considering that we had/have "mainstream" car companies, like Honda, Toyota, Renault etc. I think VW has a few options. The main brand itself wouldn't make any sense, as they are mainly associated with Dakar racing (and WRC lately). But a SEAT entry wouldn't have been so far out of the way, except that Alonso would probably be too old before they can get it flying. With so many people not aware of the VW web of marques, even a SEAT-Porsche team would have made sense - double PR win.

But I think, if it should ever take off, Porsche would be the brand to go. They've won some races in F1 in the sixties and had a successfull association with McLaren and I'm sure they would love to erase the memory of the 1990 farce.

Of the VW brands that needs promotion most in F1 it would be SEAT. This is a company that sells most in Europe and probably South America (if it isn't there already it should be), the two markets where F1 has the widest reach and the markets Renault and Toyota both tried to hit.

Its a brand that has failed to develop its own identity successfully and is struggling to sell sufficient cars.

Whether Alonso is involved doesn't matter because it wouldn't be the Spanish market that VW would be targetting.

There is little point in involving Porsche in F1 because of the reasons JW mentioned and also because Porsche sales are buoyant, profitable and unlikely to be increased further because of increased brand awareness.

But as I've repeated before as long as Piech is alive VAG will not enter F1.

[zako85]

I think Audi is the most likely VAG brand to enter F1.

Isn't Porsche going all out into endurance racing? It seems, VAG's current motorsports plan is this:

Porsche: Sports cars. LeMans, other endurance racing, GT3 racing with 911 GT3, etc.

Seat: WTCC

Volkswagen: WRC

Audi: DTM. I don't think Audi will stay in Le Mans racing after Porsche's LMP1 effort is in full swing. Besides, Audi is starting to suffer from "too much of a good thing" in LMP1 as the competition is very thin. Audi already pulled out of ALMS. What will happen next? Probably F1. There is probably some hesitation due to uncertain nature of F1 regulations, and also the economic outlook. Or maybe nothing will happen. Maybe they'll take a break after a decade of success in LeMans. This would actually be brilliant. Get everybody talking about Audi's entry into F1 for about five years, then do nothing.

[AndyL]

I think Audi is the most likely VAG brand to enter F1.

Evoking memories of those epic Auto Union Grand Prix cars of the 1930s perhaps.

[inimitablestoo]

Who knows, possibly VW/Audi could even link up with Red Bull. They've got previous form there with the Dakar Rally, DTM and Formula 3. But yes, I would agree Audi is more likely given the arrival of Porsche in LMP1 and Audi's pre-war heritage.

Mind you, if you count Audi and Auto Union as separate brands, then Bugatti has the greatest Grand Prix heritage of all the current VW brands...

[D-Type]

Just watch a broadcast of a Grand Prix. How many times does the make of car get mentioned compared to the drivers? In the graphics rather than the commentary. Then ask whether a hard-nosed manufacturer will see the publicity as cost-effective.

Then take an honest look at Porsche's previous forays into F1. 1961-62 with the flat-four and flat-eight led to one win (arguably lucky) - at best they were on a par with Ferrari when both were being eclipsed by the British V8's. The TAG-Porsche engine in the McLaren was successful, but in period Porsche couldn't claim ownership as it was branded as TAG. And who even remembers the Porsche engine in the Footwork. If you were the Porsche management would you honestly expect instant success? And without the success what's the point?

Simply a journalist and his employer making a living writing up a rumour to fill a couple of pages.

[wedge]

Of the VW brands that needs promotion most in F1 it would be SEAT. This is a company that sells most in Europe and probably South America (if it isn't there already it should be), the two markets where F1 has the widest reach and the markets Renault and Toyota both tried to hit.

SEAT desperately needs the money more to sort its brand identity than F1, especially the negatives pointed out in recent car reviews.

[Malbec]

SEAT desperately needs the money more to sort its brand identity than F1, especially the negatives pointed out in recent car reviews.

For a project as expensive as F1 I doubt the funds would come from a subsidiary like SEAT but would come from a central source. The cost wouldn't be at the expense of R/D which would be negligible anyway as all SEAT does is give a Spanish flavour to VW platforms.

[D28]

I have to agree completely with D-Type about this story. Porsche made the decision in 1962 to concentrate on endurance racing as the best means of showcasing their cars. They have enjoyed phenomenal success so this has to be seen as the right decision. On the other hand success in Porsche formula cars has been elusive.
The CART all Porsche 1987 car was not competitive and was quickly replaced by the March-Porsche 88P which was. The following year March-Porsches had a win with Teo Fabi, plus a number of podiums, poles and FLs. However, Porsche abandoned this promising effort after 1990. To do F1 would take much longer than 3 years to get decent results, maybe like Toyota, Honda and Ford, wins would never come. If this were to be the case, what would Porsche have to gain for $ millions invested? Very little, with everything to lose, which is why they will not be entering F1 anytime soon IMO.