Ford is withdrawing from WRC!

[makinen_fan]

Ford will withdraw from @OfficialWRC as title sponsor after 2012. #FordWRC thanks its fans, drivers and many partners for their support

From tweeter account

[wildsir]

Ford out, or just withdraw factory support for msport?

[dimviii]

Ford will withdraw from @OfficialWRC as title sponsor after 2012. #FordWRC thanks its fans, drivers and many partners for their support

From tweeter account

not good :(

[makinen_fan]

As I understand it, M-sport will continue running the cars but without financial support from Ford? So this will end up as a Prodrive-Mini thing

[GigiGalliNo1]

So it's like BMW not supporting Prodrive

Ford not supporting M-Sport


This is cray!

[Alfa Fan]

Ford to withdraw works support for World Rally Championship - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103466)

Ford Quit. So WRC is in even worse position than last year. You couldn't make this up.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Please close thread as discussion in News and Rumors.

[gloomyDAY]

What the hell is happening? (https://twitter.com/FordWRC/status/257854942356860928)

Straight from the horses mouth. This is their last year.

[Alfa Fan]

Please close thread as discussion in News and Rumors.

What? You only have one thread in the WRC section? Bizarre, this is major, major news for the sport, and without trying to be too dramatic, could lead to the end of the WRC in its current form.

Citroen as a factory team are all but gone, with only Abu Dhabi money funding next years entry.
BMW Mini has withdrawn as a factory team.

Volkswagen are coming in, but surely now in a situation where they will steam-roll all opposition like the WTCC 2010-12.

[MTA]

http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/1259-m-sport-press-release

[amilk]

M-SPORT PRESS RELEASE (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/news/1259-m-sport-press-release)

Some words from the press release - and think positive

"reduce their commitment", "look forward to continuing our strong technical partnership into the future"

So Ford will support M-Spore but not with full face and they have to step back - this is necessary in front of the share holders, workers , public , maybe they will close factories etc so difficult to explain that in the same time they spend huge $$$ for rallying. Basically the same explained by Citroen, they reduce the support to Citroen Racing but the official name remains.

[Mark]

If anything deserves it's own thread. This is it.

[J4MIE]

Bloody hell, I was thinking this would happen but maybe at end of 2013. So I guess Latvala goes to VW next year then.

[Sulland]

Lets try to collect all regarding the Ford withdrawal here instead of putting it all over the place.
This major news deserve that also for historic reasons.

Ford has had maximum 'Bad luck' since they have had to fight top cars with the best driver for 9 years. Something like this has never happened before, and probably never will again at the top level of any motorsport.
Most car manufacturers are loosing a lot of money these days, and have to close factories. Most CEOs will cut rally before workers, that is an easy choice !

Sad but true !

[dimviii]

from Gerard Quinns twitter

I stay with Ford to run our other Ford Racing projects in Europe. My team will continue to provide M-Sport technical support.R5 continues

[rallye-vid]

Soo.. M-Sport will do s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g in WRC 2013, then go 2014 for ERC and drop WRC

[rallyfiend]

Soo.. M-Sport will do s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g in WRC 2013, then go 2014 for ERC and drop WRC

Nothing will happen in ERC without paying customers.

Why is this acceptable, but people see customers in the WRC as some sort of poison?

[rallye-vid]

Of course someone will pay for it.

If i want to win and i can pay.. will i go for motorsport italia or m-sport?

[ShiftingGears]

Bloody hell, I was thinking this would happen but maybe at end of 2013.

My thoughts exactly. Will be a great shame if M-Sport isn't competitive next year.

[GigiGalliNo1]

SO we talk about Ford leaving in this Thread and the News & Rumours one right? That's why this Thread doesn't make sense.

[Humber]

I wonder if VW will try to save money by not signing Latvala.
I wonder if 2013 will be like when Garde and Kresta were driving the Focus.

[andyone]

huh. but by the looks of it. Ford are still on the mix. lets hope they stay there.

[RS]

I wonder if VW will try to save money by not signing Latvala.


You mean on saved wages or uncrashed cars?

To be fair, Latvala has become a lot more reliable in the second half of the year but I am sure the first half of the year didn't do much to help persuade Ford to stay.

[Mark]

SO we talk about Ford leaving in this Thread and the News & Rumours one right? That's why this Thread doesn't make sense.

A new thread should be posted every time there is a major development. Otherwise why have a multiple threads feature at all?

[Mihai]

My crystal ball sees JML to VW, plus Mikkelsen buying an M-Sport drive for next year, with Petter Solberg staying with Malcolm for 2013 after accepting peanuts as payment.

Al-Attiyah furious for already having a contract with Citroen and thus ruining his chance of becoming lead driver at M-Sport next year. ;)

[I am evil Homer]

Hardly a surprise. With all the issues around promoting the sport why invest millions into something only a small group of people watch. I'd suggest that Ford could be doing a Citroen here...they'll see how the new promotion goes and maybe put some funds M-Sport's way come 2014.

In the meantime M-Sport continues with the Fiesta and people have to pay more for it.

Bad news for Petter I think.

[A FONDO]

Still plenty of time 'til we know what will happen with M-sport in 2013 season. Even if they don't participate, at their place we will have VW. But I believe Malcolm will somehow succee to make an "M" team. And/or strong team in S-WRC.

[Langdale Forest]

If Matthew Wilson had never been put into a 5+ year plan, would Ford still be in the WRC next year?

[RS]

If Matthew Wilson had never been put into a 5+ year plan, would Ford still be in the WRC next year?

Erm, no?

[A.F.F.]

You mean on saved wages or uncrashed cars?

To be fair, Latvala has become a lot more reliable in the second half of the year but I am sure the first half of the year didn't do much to help persuade Ford to stay.

I was about to ask the very same.

Latvala's salary is going to be a fly's poop in VW's budget. Chrashing cars is another story. But, Latvala is able to win rallies. That's something only Ogier is able to do next year.

[Daniel]

Fantastic news IMHO. I hate to sound like N.O.T, but M-Sport were a sick dog team that needed to be put down. With how many years they've been in the WRC what do they have to show for it? Sod all.

[Fly_Half]

It's a huge shame Ford have pulled the plug particularly as 2013 was probably their best chance of winning the Manufacturer's and Driver's titles for about a decade. It also puts a bit of a dampener on the positive noises being made about Hyundai, VW and the new promoter coming on board. Let's just hope the promoter does their job properly and tempts a few other manufacturers back to the fold...(Toyota, Mitsubishi etc)


If Matthew Wilson had never been put into a 5+ year plan, would Ford still be in the WRC next year?

I can't even begin to comprehend how you even thought of that scenario. What on earth has Matt Wilson's mythical "5 Year Plan" got to do with Ford Europe's decision to pull funding for the WRC programme!?

[ste898]

If Matthew Wilson had never been put into a 5+ year plan, would Ford still be in the WRC next year?

what a stupid post

[ste898]

Fantastic news IMHO. I hate to sound like N.O.T, but M-Sport were a sick dog team that needed to be put down. With how many years they've been in the WRC what do they have to show for it? Sod all.

You have no place on this WRC forum or any forum do with rallying if you think a ream withdrawing from WRC is great news you sad sad person!!!

[sollitt]

ste898, I absolutely agree with your last 2 posts. Not only is the potential loss of a team nothing to celebrate but the achievements of M-Sport over many years are considerable. The sport has been priviledged to have had them involved and it is to be hoped they continue.

[Allyc85]

Fantastic news IMHO. I hate to sound like N.O.T, but M-Sport were a sick dog team that needed to be put down. With how many years they've been in the WRC what do they have to show for it? Sod all.

What a ****ing rediculous post, go back to the hole you have been hiding in.

Come back N.O.T, all is forgiven...

[rallye-vid]

Quinn said on facebook, ford will do now Global X-Games and Global Rallycross Championship

[noel157]

Quinn said on facebook, ford will do now Global X-Games and Global Rallycross Championship

With what team/preparation company I wonder? Olsbergs?

[Josti]

Quinn said on facebook, ford will do now Global X-Games and Global Rallycross Championship

That´s just painful.

[stefanvv]

Quinn said on facebook, ford will do now Global X-Games and Global Rallycross Championship

That's very... unexpected. I know it has cross-Atlantic interest, unlike WRC, but the competition there is none I think, except private drivers :confused: Perhaps GRC is about to become something really big :confused:

[noel157]

Quinn also say FMC had the right cut contract a year early. Wonder if any performance targets were not met?

[gravelman]

That's very... unexpected. I know it has cross-Atlantic interest, unlike WRC, but the competition there is none I think, except private drivers :confused: Perhaps GRC is about to become something really big :confused:

Its now under the banner of img if my memory serves me correctly, or possibly I'm thinking of an fia rallycRoss series. In short, serious promotion.

http://www.rallycrossworld.com/2012/10/11/fia-championship-launch-date-set/

[MJW]

Its now under the banner of img if my memory serves me correctly, or possibly I'm thinking of an fia rallycRoss series. In short, serious promotion.

FIA championship launch date set | RallycrossWorld.com (http://www.rallycrossworld.com/2012/10/11/fia-championship-launch-date-set/)
No its the European RallyCross series that has now been given FIA status and a promotion deal with IMG. The American Global Rallycross series and X Games are different but they have agreed to work together that there are no calendar clashes.

[rallye-vid]

Global X-Games: X Games to grow from three to six events in 2013 - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/action/xgames/cities/story/_/id/7862758/x-games-grow-three-six-events-2013)
Global Rallycross Championship: Global RallyCross | 2012 Season (http://www.global-rallycross.com/)

[EightGear]

I don't think GRC is a replacement for WRC. The costs are by far not as high as running a WRC programme.

[stefanvv]

I don't think GRC is a replacement for WRC. The costs are by far not as high as running a WRC programme.

Hell no. These are quite different motor sport disciplines, in terms of costs, terrain, program, etc., perhaps only the cars look the same (only look), and that's it. I wonder shouldn't FIA do something about promoting WRC more globally as Ford seem to see the future in such less attractive sport.

[Lousada]

No its the European RallyCross series that has now been given FIA status and a promotion deal with IMG. The American Global Rallycross series and X Games are different but they have agreed to work together that there are no calendar clashes.

Rallycross has had FIA status for 40 years now, it is just that now for the first time they have a promotor for the European Championship. You are correct that the Global Rallycross / X-Games is another championship altogether. Rallycross will be exploding next year with two well promoted rival championships.

[janvanvurpa]

Global X-Games: X Games to grow from three to six events in 2013 - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/action/xgames/cities/story/_/id/7862758/x-games-grow-three-six-events-2013)
Global Rallycross Championship: Global RallyCross | 2012 Season (http://www.global-rallycross.com/)

What fantastic news! Now we can watch people drive around in 6 parking lots instead of watching them drive around in 3 parking lots! 6 is 50% more.....I can hardly wait. :z

[janvanvurpa]

Rallycross has had FIA status for 40 years now, it is just that now for the first time they have a promotor for the European Championship. You are correct that the Global Rallycross / X-Games is another championship altogether. Rallycross will be exploding next year with two well promoted rival championships.

The 2 series may both be "well promoted' but one has real action, and dirt flying, and real circuits. The other has promotion..
only thing that will be exploding over here is the heads of those who try and explain how the "show" over here is only stealing a name and pushing something bearing scant similarity to rally cross as it has been known for decades..

Once again "only in America" :rolleyes:

[stefanvv]

When these Americans are about to civilize themselves :D

[Arganil]

Quinn said on facebook, ford will do now Global X-Games and Global Rallycross Championship

I don't get it. Wasn't Ford WRC programme financed by Ford Europe? Strange to see Ford Racing engagements in USA using the european filial funds, especially when Ford is desperate to improve sales in europe.

As someone said before, WRC quiting decision probably is due to marketing reasons and not necessary due to motorsport adjustments in Ford Racing range.

I also think that only a bunch of white collars would let escape Ford's huge chances to win drivers and manus 2013 wrc titlles!

Nevertheless, every rally fan should thanks Ford WRC involvement over the years, especially last seasons efforts to fight Citroen dominance, providing entertaining duels with french rivals that otherwise would turn into boring solo displays.

[stefanvv]

Nevertheless, every rally fan should thanks Ford WRC involvement over the years, especially last seasons efforts to fight Citroen dominance, providing entertaining duels with french rivals that otherwise would turn into boring solo displays.

Indeed!

[RS]

Fantastic news IMHO. I hate to sound like N.O.T, but M-Sport were a sick dog team that needed to be put down. With how many years they've been in the WRC what do they have to show for it? Sod all.

Not sure if I agree with that. The car is capable of winning, but their biggest problem has been Loeb (or rather that their drivers couldn't match him)

[Maui J.]

Fantastic news IMHO. I hate to sound like N.O.T, but M-Sport were a sick dog team that needed to be put down. With how many years they've been in the WRC what do they have to show for it? Sod all.

What a stupid single minded response.
M-Sport has fielded cars in the WRC for 16 years, they have won 2 manufacturers championship for Ford, won 50 odd events, and on top of that have entertained us, the spectators/fans.
There is a saying that I'm sure you know, "The cream always rises to the top". This applies to drivers and also businesses. There are hundreds of private rally teams/businesses, but only a few are trusted with running an out-sourced WRC programme on behalf of a manufacturer. What M-Sport has achieved with Ford (and Prodrive with Subaru) shows that they are the cream.
Sure it is always going to be difficult to compete on a level footing with in-house teams like Citroen with seemingly unlimited budgets, but what they have done should be applauded and not ridiculed.

[Mirek]

Nevertheless, every rally fan should thanks Ford WRC involvement over the years, especially last seasons efforts to fight Citroen dominance, providing entertaining duels with french rivals that otherwise would turn into boring solo displays.

I would like to point how it was when PSA was loosing in the IRC. They just quit and killed the championship. Ford could have done the same in previous years but they kept fighting. Imagine it was Citroën loosing. For how many years they would keep trying? Two, three?

[tmx]

Bad news for Petter I think. Reminded me of the last days of Subaru in WRC, I hope that's not the case.

[I am evil Homer]

I don't get it. Wasn't Ford WRC programme financed by Ford Europe? Strange to see Ford Racing engagements in USA using the european filial funds, especially when Ford is desperate to improve sales in europe.

As someone said before, WRC quiting decision probably is due to marketing reasons and not necessary due to motorsport adjustments in Ford Racing range.

I also think that only a bunch of white collars would let escape Ford's huge chances to win drivers and manus 2013 wrc titlles!

Nevertheless, every rally fan should thanks Ford WRC involvement over the years, especially last seasons efforts to fight Citroen dominance, providing entertaining duels with french rivals that otherwise would turn into boring solo displays.

Yes it's marketing related - budgets are tight and right now X-Games gets more viewers, more global media coverage and more hype in a key audience than rally does.

That has been WRC's problem for years - the 'product' is still good (despite the Loeb domination), the cars look good, the sound isn't bad, the events are good if not great. But the FIA's handling of a premier series has been utterly shambolic.

It has no idea how to engage with a younger audience. The promotion of the series, the TV coverage (or lack of) the lack of proper online content until last year means simply that the audience has dwindled to a hard core of people like us. We are enough to sustain it but it needs to grow.

For such a large marketing spend both for teams and their sponsors, they need higher viewer figures and they need a younger audience - the 16-35 range. The range that Red Bull and Monster etc get through things like the X-Games that they simply don't and couldn't through WRC.

[Karukera]

I would like to point how it was when PSA was loosing in the IRC. They just quit and killed the championship. Ford could have done the same in previous years but they kept fighting. Imagine it was Citroën loosing. For how many years they would keep trying? Two, three?

Cut the IF b.s, in the real world, Citroën won most of the confrontations.
Comparing IRC to WRC is irrelevant in almost every respect. The 207 S2000 program never went very far in delevopment and everybody knew it from the very beginning + PSA had a WRC program underway with Citroën.

You have something right and it's the commitment, PSA do not give a d@mn about passion for the sport while Ford did/does.
Besides financial/marketing considerations, PSA claim they need a direct confrontation with different manufacturers regardless of results, if they don't have it, they will simply quit when Ford would last, different visions. I personally prefer Ford's take on that.

Ford has been the most consistent manufactuer of the WRC and seeing them officialy leaving the series is a huge loss for any sensible rally enthusiast.

It is obvious that Ford have actually been backing the WRC for many years when other manufacturers are mostly opportunists, including PSA.

[Mirek]

Cut the IF b.s, in the real world, Citroën won most of the confrontations.
Comparing IRC to WRC is irrelevant in almost every respect. The 207 S2000 program never went very far in delevopment and everybody knew it from the very beginning + PSA had a WRC program underway with Citroën

How did You come to that conclusion?

[AndyRAC]

Ford have made the WRC their priority that they’ve given M-Sport a meagre budget.....meaning M-Sport running numerous programmes – whereas Citroen have soley concentrated on the WRC, and nothing else. The results say it all.

I don’t understand all this love for Ford – their record in the WRC is pretty woeful.

[Mirek]

Ford have made the WRC their priority that they’ve given M-Sport a meagre budget.....meaning M-Sport running numerous programmes – whereas Citroen have soley concentrated on the WRC, and nothing else. The results say it all.

No. Citroën besides the WRC did development of R1, R2 and R3 car and organized large support program for them including one make cups in many countries. Aside of that for couple of years under the lead of Quessnel Citroën adn Peugeot competition departments were joined together so that the development and all other work on 207 S2000, R3 and 208 R2 was also done by them. Don't know if Matton split them again or not.

[stefanvv]

I don’t understand all this love for Ford – their record in the WRC is pretty woeful.

Winning is not everything. Their continuous commitment to the Rally sport, even in it's worse years is what matters after all... At least for me...

[bluuford]

It is different attitude.. Ford has been trying, trying hard, very very hard. But what can you do when your opponent is S. Loeb - The greatest motorsport talent in history? They have not quit and as far as I can understand they will not quit fully yet (I do not see M-Sport leaving their main bread). Imagine what would happened without Loeb? How many Chmapionship titles Ford would have? 3?, 6?, 9?, 12? Without Loeb Citroen would have left WRC years ago.. most probably. why? look what they have done so far? Last year in IRC, they were using all kind of tricks and drivers to win championship.. but they didnt invest in car. 2012 Pug S2000 consisted mostly PR upgrades... and bang. they left the series. Lemans.. they were humiliated by AUDI and by themself.. bang.. they quit the sport. Loeb leaves WRC and thaks to some big sponsorship from oli kings they stay (They realize that the possibility to get any titles in 2013 is slimmer than at any point during last 10 years), but with a very little hope to gain any titles next year.

Have you tought about the relations between the news that Loeb quits and Hyundai, VW, + possibly some other car manufacturers are interested in joining the series? Why now? did they realized that their chaches to succeed increased enormously thanks to the departure of the King?

[AndyRAC]

No. Citroën besides the WRC did development of R1, R2 and R3 car and organized large support program for them including one make cups in many countries. Aside of that for couple of years under the lead of Quessnel Citroën adn Peugeot competition departments were joined together so that the development and all other work on 207 S2000, R3 and 208 R2 was also done by them. Don't know if Matton split them again or not.

Yes, I know that - but they weren't sidetracked by customer programmes like M-Sport were thanks to their resources. They were in it to win....

[AndyRAC]

Winning is not everything. Their continuous commitment to the Rally sport, even in it's worse years is what matters after all... At least for me...

You've obviously never heard of Vince Lombardi then. Winning is THE only thing.

[stefanvv]

You've obviously never heard of Vince Lombardi then. Winning is THE only thing.

I have heard that somewhere, didn't know who said it though. Interesting turn of phrase ;) , but I don't have to agree with it :)

[Karukera]

How did You come to that conclusion?

As far as official involvement is concerned, the 207 S2000 was a notoriously late and rushed to completion program, it was averagely managed without clear direction, ambitions and consistency.
The Peugeot Sport board never hid the flaws, it was between getting Peugeot 'a little' involved in int'l motosports events in parallel of the costly WRC program, have a few fingers in the S2000 pie and for domestic marketing purposes.
The only decent 207 results came from a bit of talent by the drivers, circumstances and/or attrition from others, rarely as a whole prof. team effort against a real prof. and constantly improved Skoda armada.
Not to mention the excellence of the Skoda and her drivers...

End of off topic :)

[stefanvv]

As far as official involvement is concerned, the 207 S2000 was a notoriously late and rushed to completion program, it was averagely managed without clear direction, ambitions and consistency.
The Peugeot Sport board never hid the flaws, it was between getting Peugeot 'a little' involved in int'l motosports events in parallel of the costly WRC program, have a few fingers in the S2000 pie and for domestic marketing purposes.

I have to agree. Peugeot threw all their efforts on Le Mans adventure :D :D

[Karukera]

I have to agree. Peugeot threw all their efforts on Le Mans adventure

You are being obssessed, insane :D

[stefanvv]

You are being obssessed, insane :D

Me? nooooo. I can live with some losses, no problem. But Peugeout - different story.

[Lousada]

It is different attitude.. Ford has been trying, trying hard, very very hard. But what can you do when your opponent is S. Loeb - The greatest motorsport talent in history? They have not quit and as far as I can understand they will not quit fully yet (I do not see M-Sport leaving their main bread).
Wait, so just writing a check to M-Sport every year is trying really hard. But building your own team with your own money, your own engineers and your own star drivers is not trying hard?


Without Loeb Citroen would have left WRC years ago.. most probably. why? look what they have done so far? Last year in IRC, they were using all kind of tricks and drivers to win championship.. but they didnt invest in car. 2012 Pug S2000 consisted mostly PR upgrades... and bang. they left the series. Lemans.. they were humiliated by AUDI and by themself.. bang.. they quit the sport. Loeb leaves WRC and thaks to some big sponsorship from oli kings they stay (They realize that the possibility to get any titles in 2013 is slimmer than at any point during last 10 years), but with a very little hope to gain any titles next year.
Manufacturers are not charities. They make a decision based on the exposure vs. costs. It's pretty obvious, succes gives exposure. Ford did it the other way, they lowered the costs to M-Sport every year to match the dwindling exposure.



Have you tought about the relations between the news that Loeb quits and Hyundai, VW, + possibly some other car manufacturers are interested in joining the series? Why now? did they realized that their chaches to succeed increased enormously thanks to the departure of the King?

These plans were made more than a year ago. Did they already knew by then that Loeb would retire this year??

[GigiGalliNo1]

Qatar to sponsor M-Sport

[Roy]

Qatar to sponsor M-Sport

Link? Source? We had early heard a false rumour about Qutar and Citroen... :\

[noel157]

Link? Source? We had early heard a false rumour about Qutar and Citroen... :\

Not sure it was a false rumour, more just an ordinary rumour :)

Autonews Magazine » WRC » Ford avec le Qatar comme partenaire ? (http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=26713)

[MikeD]

Ford could have done the same in previous years but they kept fighting. Imagine it was Citroën loosing. For how many years they would keep trying? Two, three?

Most likely that Citroën would have quit ... but that's because they entered the WRC to win, not just to participate .... and that's the difference. When you enter as a manufacturer you need to enter with the sole purpose of winning and somehow M-Sport is lacking that extra thing where you get ahead of your oponent, and instead they have looked like they were playing catch-up since 1997. First to Mitsubishi, the Toyota, then Subaru, then Peugeot and then Citroën. And if you think about it they have won those 2 manufacturer titles but they only won in 2006 because Loeb broke his arm. Before that the Kronos Citroën entry was ahead (See slide 3 in link below)

http://www.flagworld.com/2009/ChampionshipStandings/WRC%20WMC%20Top%205%202000-2009.pdf

The sad think is that it's Ford that is leaving and M-Sport that is staying. I personally wished it was the other way around.

[alleskids]

what engine does Al Attiyah use for his Dakar buggy? is it a Ford brand? it could be a link for Qatar between WRC and dakar and Ford to

[Roy]

what engine does Al Attiyah use for his Dakar buggy? is it a Ford brand? it could be a link for Qatar between WRC and dakar and Ford to

It will be a V8 engine of Chervolet.
Al-Attiyah met buggy aan de start Dakar Rally - RTL GP (http://www.rtl.nl/%28/sport/rtl_gp/dakar/nieuws/%29/sport/rtl_gp/components/dakar/nieuws/2012/articles/120930_nasser_al_attiyah_met_buggy_in_dakar.xml)

[COD]

Rallying is marketing for manufacturers. As Ford Europe is doing badly, they need to cut costs somewhere and stopping rally sponsorship (at least officially) looks good inte eyes of investors and workers.
What this really means, we can only speculate. What is the amount M-Sport needs to cover with other sponsors to do full WRC? What is the anount Ford gives to M-Sport as "technical development support"?

[Plan9]

will there be any ford logos on the car at all next year?

[GigiGalliNo1]

Only the badge on the hood and boot.

[anthonyvop]

SO we talk about Ford leaving in this Thread and the News & Rumours one right? That's why this Thread doesn't make sense.

No

Having to read through over 540 pages of the News and rumors thread to discuss one specific topic doesn't make sense.

[Daniel]

You have no place on this WRC forum or any forum do with rallying if you think a ream withdrawing from WRC is great news you sad sad person!!!

And you're xenophobic and dislike the French for some reason, yet you're still allowed on here :)

The WRC needs to be a strong series and it never will be till there is strong opposition from other teams. Ford/M-Sport were NEVER going to be a proper opposition. NEVER.

[Daniel]

ste898, I absolutely agree with your last 2 posts. Not only is the potential loss of a team nothing to celebrate but the achievements of M-Sport over many years are considerable. The sport has been priviledged to have had them involved and it is to be hoped they continue.

What achievements? Simply being there isn't an achievement. They've had 2 manufacturers titles after how many years of almost continuous involvement? Citroen have been in for how many years and have how many titles :rolleyes:

The top teams like Lancia, Peugeot, Citroen and to a lesser extent Subaru, Mitsubishi and Toyota have a fantastic strike rate. They compete to win rather than just to be also rans like Ford do.


What a ****ing rediculous post, go back to the hole you have been hiding in.

Come back N.O.T, all is forgiven...


If you knew how to spell ridiculous I might take notice of your post :)

[Daniel]

It is different attitude.. Ford has been trying, trying hard, very very hard. But what can you do when your opponent is S. Loeb - The greatest motorsport talent in history? They have not quit and as far as I can understand they will not quit fully yet (I do not see M-Sport leaving their main bread). Imagine what would happened without Loeb? How many Chmapionship titles Ford would have? 3?, 6?, 9?, 12? Without Loeb Citroen would have left WRC years ago.. most probably. why? look what they have done so far? Last year in IRC, they were using all kind of tricks and drivers to win championship.. but they didnt invest in car. 2012 Pug S2000 consisted mostly PR upgrades... and bang. they left the series. Lemans.. they were humiliated by AUDI and by themself.. bang.. they quit the sport. Loeb leaves WRC and thaks to some big sponsorship from oli kings they stay (They realize that the possibility to get any titles in 2013 is slimmer than at any point during last 10 years), but with a very little hope to gain any titles next year.

Have you tought about the relations between the news that Loeb quits and Hyundai, VW, + possibly some other car manufacturers are interested in joining the series? Why now? did they realized that their chaches to succeed increased enormously thanks to the departure of the King?

They've always made a half RS'ed (see what I did there?) effort. They needed to step up their game when Peugeot came in, they had the best driver lineup for it, but they didn't. Then they built a fantastic car (the '03 WRC) and had a driver who simply wasn't quite a number 1 driver yet (Markko) as their main driver and Duval as 2nd. If they had kept either Sainz or McRae then they would have had far more success.

For far too long, Malcolm pursued a policy of "if you want to win, take a Finn" to try and beat Seb. Latvala could have been that driver if he was 2nd to a solid driver who was challenging Loeb and allowing Latvala to build speed, but no, Ford chose a 2nd driver (Latvala) to be their 1st.

The team was mismanaged and I'm sure if there was no one else competing, then they would find some way of losing.

[noel157]

They've always made a half RS'ed (see what I did there?) effort. They needed to step up their game when Peugeot came in, they had the best driver lineup for it, but they didn't. Then they built a fantastic car (the '03 WRC) and had a driver who simply wasn't quite a number 1 driver yet (Markko) as their main driver and Duval as 2nd. If they had kept either Sainz or McRae then they would have had far more success.

For far too long, Malcolm pursued a policy of "if you want to win, take a Finn" to try and beat Seb. Latvala could have been that driver if he was 2nd to a solid driver who was challenging Loeb and allowing Latvala to build speed, but no, Ford chose a 2nd driver (Latvala) to be their 1st.

The team was mismanaged and I'm sure if there was no one else competing, then they would find some way of losing.

Most of what you've said has some merit.

[Daniel]

No. Citroën besides the WRC did development of R1, R2 and R3 car and organized large support program for them including one make cups in many countries. Aside of that for couple of years under the lead of Quessnel Citroën adn Peugeot competition departments were joined together so that the development and all other work on 207 S2000, R3 and 208 R2 was also done by them. Don't know if Matton split them again or not.

Let's also not forget Citroen's fantastic F2 campaign as well. They beat the WRCars not once, but twice. The only manufacturer to have won with a 2wd car for rather a long time and surely never to be equalled unless the WRC goes 2wd.

Ford, well Ford have had brief flashes of brilliance, the Gronholm years were good, but he never really had the car to take it to Loeb, 03 WRC was wasted without top flight drivers and The original Focus WRC was brought in at the same time as the 206 WRC and simply wasn't up to the task even though they had one of the best drivers lineups ever seen.......

Whilst just competing might be great for a Suzuki, a Hyundai or Seat/Skoda (in the early days) a company like Ford should be in it to win it.

If at first you don't succeed then try again, but if you continue to try and continue to lose then you only end up embarrassing yourself

[Franky]

Then they built a fantastic car (the '03 WRC) and had a driver who simply wasn't quite a number 1 driver yet (Markko) as their main driver and Duval as 2nd. If they had kept either Sainz or McRae then they would have had far more success.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I remember that the 2003 spec was very fast but unreliable. 2004 was more reliable but not so fast.

With a fast but falling apart car you won't win anything, even with the best drivers.

[Daniel]

Most of what you've said has some merit.

If you ask me, the biggest issue with Ford's efforts has been Malcolm.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Ford's cars as such, they've got the fantastic Reiger dampers and so on.....

The problem has always been the drivers or the car or both. Why oh why did Ford not keep Colin or Carlos for 2003? That car was fantastic and winning a drivers title with it would have done wonders for their funding and prestige. But no, they got rid of two of rallying's greats and although Markko was a good driver, he wasn't ready to be the lead driver and the fact that he won rallies should say a lot about the car. I honestly think the 03 Focus was one of the best WRCars around.

How many years was Solberg available for? Yet Malcolm still had Mikko and Jari-Matti making the same mistakes/being slow....... Solberg is well past his best now, if he'd gotten off his high horse and fired Mikko and brought Solberg in then he'd have had a quality number 1 driver who would have been able to take the pressure off Jari-Matti and allow him to develop speed rather than cracking and crashing under pressure. Mikko has shown this year that he's a very fine number 2, a number 1 he is not.

Then there is the ridiculous situation where Malcolm has wasted either his own or someone elses money chasing a dream on his sons behalf that was never going to happen.

I have nothing against the Ford badge, I'd probably have a modern Ford over one of my beloved Peugeot's of the current era.

I just despise the useless waste of time, space and money that is Malcolm Wilson.

I loved the 206 years and to a lesser extent the Xsara years. There competition was fantastic, you went into each rally not knowing which team let alone which driver was going to win.

[Daniel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I remember that the 2003 spec was very fast but unreliable. 2004 was more reliable but not so fast.

With a fast but falling apart car you won't win anything, even with the best drivers.

The best drivers have always been able to nurse a slightly weaker car in terms of reliability. I firmly believe that Colin or Carlos could have taken that car to a drivers title.

[stefanvv]

The best drivers have always been able to nurse a slightly weaker car in terms of reliability. I firmly believe that Colin or Carlos could have taken that car to a drivers title.

McRae was fantastic driver in that respect. He knew the weaknesses of the car and always tried to avoid them...

[Daniel]

McRae was fantastic driver with the other way around too. He knew the weaknesses of the car and always tried to avoid them...

That was the point I was making :) Don't get me wrong, Markko was a great driver and I'm not trying to show any disrespect, but he was young at the time and needed to be 2nd. If not for Beef's passing Markko would have gone on to be a very successful driver I'm sure.

[stefanvv]

That was the point I was making :) Don't get me wrong, Markko was a great driver and I'm not trying to show any disrespect, but he was young at the time and needed to be 2nd. If not for Beef's passing Markko would have gone on to be a very successful driver I'm sure.

Yes, I corrected myself already. Safari '99 victory speaks for itself in that respect. Wilson has made really good driver squad at that time - McRae & Sainz, but I think McRae got too greedy and Mr. Wilson didn't love him anymore. Preferred to hire inexperienced drivers which fill his bank account. Martin did grow anyway, really fast driver, beats Gronholm in Finland once! Very unfortunate what happened to Beef.

[Daniel]

I should also mention a funny story that a friend told me a few months ago. I can't remember which rally it was at, but he was sitting down in the Ford hospitality area with a nice big expensive motorhome. The M-Sport mechanics were bitching about how Ford didn't give enough money to M-Sport and then Gerald Quinn came along and angrily pointed out that the motorhome, all the flashy stuff..... was purchased by M-Sport with money which could have been spent on the development of the cars or drivers salaries.

It's funny how Mismanagement, M-Sport and Malcolm all start with M *strokes chin*

[Miika]

Martin did grow anyway, really fast driver, beats Gronholm in Finland once!

Actually it was the wheel bearings of the Peugeot that beat Grönholm that one time in Finland (in 2003).

[ShiftingGears]

If you ask me, the biggest issue with Ford's efforts has been Malcolm.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Ford's cars as such, they've got the fantastic Reiger dampers and so on.....

The problem has always been the drivers or the car or both. Why oh why did Ford not keep Colin or Carlos for 2003? That car was fantastic and winning a drivers title with it would have done wonders for their funding and prestige. But no, they got rid of two of rallying's greats and although Markko was a good driver, he wasn't ready to be the lead driver and the fact that he won rallies should say a lot about the car. I honestly think the 03 Focus was one of the best WRCars around.

How many years was Solberg available for? Yet Malcolm still had Mikko and Jari-Matti making the same mistakes/being slow....... Solberg is well past his best now, if he'd gotten off his high horse and fired Mikko and brought Solberg in then he'd have had a quality number 1 driver who would have been able to take the pressure off Jari-Matti and allow him to develop speed rather than cracking and crashing under pressure. Mikko has shown this year that he's a very fine number 2, a number 1 he is not.

Then there is the ridiculous situation where Malcolm has wasted either his own or someone elses money chasing a dream on his sons behalf that was never going to happen.

I have nothing against the Ford badge, I'd probably have a modern Ford over one of my beloved Peugeot's of the current era.

I just despise the useless waste of time, space and money that is Malcolm Wilson.

I loved the 206 years and to a lesser extent the Xsara years. There competition was fantastic, you went into each rally not knowing which team let alone which driver was going to win.

I agree with this entire post, however I am still disappointed that Ford has withdrawn from WRC. At the end of the day I would prefer more drivers with chances of winning rallies, which inevitably means more manufacturer support.

In other words, I am disappointed because I would've preferred that Ford stayed and M-Sport left.

That being said, Ford pulling the plug for 2013 is a bit strange -it reminds me of Honda pulling its support from the eventual Brawn team in late 2008. With Loeb retiring and a new team entering, the chances of a WDC driving a Fiesta are much better on paper than they have for the past several years.

[stefanvv]

Actually it was the wheel bearings of the Peugeot that beat Grönholm that one time in Finland (in 2003).

Indeed ;) Markko said then he is sorry about that he couldn't beat him in straight fight ;)

[Daniel]

I agree with this entire post, however I am still disappointed that Ford has withdrawn from WRC. At the end of the day I would prefer more drivers with chances of winning rallies, which inevitably means more manufacturer support.

In other words, I am disappointed because I would've preferred that Ford stayed and M-Sport left.

That being said, Ford pulling the plug for 2013 is a bit strange -it reminds me of Honda pulling its support from the eventual Brawn team in late 2008. With Loeb retiring and a new team entering, the chances of a WDC driving a Fiesta are much better on paper than they have for the past several years.

I would have liked Ford to stay and M-Sport go too, but Ford simply aren't going to fund their own team sadly.

[AndyRAC]

Because the WRC has such a low profile – M-Sport/ Ford’s continued poor showing has gone on without anybody really grilling them about it. It seems to be a case of ‘plucky old M-Sport’ fighting the French with one arm tied behind their back. Why then? Why haven’t Ford put more funding in? Have M-Sport been wasting the budget they have? It’s not bad luck they have when it keeps happening. I’ve said before I’d have liked to have seen them both stay in the WRC, but after going seperate ways.

I don’t know why, but people in Rallying seem to put up with a lot, when in other sports there would be questions asked. Take RallyGB.... it’s only this year that something seems to be getting done. It should have happened years ago.

[Daniel]

Because the WRC has such a low profile – M-Sport/ Ford’s continued poor showing has gone on without anybody really grilling them about it. It seems to be a case of ‘plucky old M-Sport’ fighting the French with one arm tied behind their back. Why then? Why haven’t Ford put more funding in? Have M-Sport been wasting the budget they have? It’s not bad luck they have when it keeps happening. I’ve said before I’d have liked to have seen them both stay in the WRC, but after going seperate ways.

I don’t know why, but people in Rallying seem to put up with a lot, when in other sports there would be questions asked. Take RallyGB.... it’s only this year that something seems to be getting done. It should have happened years ago.

Well, if Gerald Quinn is going to grill M-Sport employees in public it has to be pretty serious. I'm sure someone will accuse me of making it up, but it was from an EXTREMELY reputable first hand source I can assure you :)

[dimviii]

. Why then? Why haven’t Ford put more funding in? Have M-Sport been wasting the budget they have? It’s not bad luck they have when it keeps happening.

I doubt that they lacked funding.

[BDunnell]

That being said, Ford pulling the plug for 2013 is a bit strange -it reminds me of Honda pulling its support from the eventual Brawn team in late 2008. With Loeb retiring and a new team entering, the chances of a WDC driving a Fiesta are much better on paper than they have for the past several years.

But that decision was deemed the right one by Honda at the time, just as this one is by Ford, and there's little counter-argument. I can see exactly why both manufacturers decided to quit. Honda seemed to be getting nowhere, Ford is in a championship that seems to be getting nowhere, and they both needed to cut costs.

[Daniel]

But that decision was deemed the right one by Honda at the time, just as this one is by Ford, and there's little counter-argument. I can see exactly why both manufacturers decided to quit. Honda seemed to be getting nowhere, Ford is in a championship that seems to be getting nowhere, and they both needed to cut costs.

One could argue that the decision by Honda was why Brawn succeeded the year after. Honda had pumped money in for years and years but something wasn't right, evidently that something that wasn't right was Honda. The situation with M-Sport is different. M-Sport have more control over what they spend their money on and the direction that the team takes.

[BDunnell]

Because the WRC has such a low profile – M-Sport/ Ford’s continued poor showing has gone on without anybody really grilling them about it. It seems to be a case of ‘plucky old M-Sport’ fighting the French with one arm tied behind their back. Why then? Why haven’t Ford put more funding in? Have M-Sport been wasting the budget they have? It’s not bad luck they have when it keeps happening. I’ve said before I’d have liked to have seen them both stay in the WRC, but after going seperate ways.

I don't think we should be surprised at all. I've posted this sentiment before, but Ford has, truth be told, done little of note in international motorsport for the past 30 years. The C100 sportscar programme was a disaster. It absurdly decided not to make any capital out of the great achievement of winning the 1994 F1 title as Benetton's engine supplier. Bits of WRC success with the Escort Cosworth and Focus never translated into anything consistent. The less said about the tie-up with Hotfiel Sport to produce a WTCC Focus the better. There's the odd exception — we never got to see how good the RS200 could have become because the end of Group B meant that it was never developed, the Sierra Cosworth was spectacular and did a huge amount to support various rallying and touring car championships by way of being readily available, and the Rouse-built Mondeo was briefly the best two-litre touring car in the world — but not much to write home about. Only in V8 Supercars has the Ford presence really brought about consistent honours. Even on the UK scene, once Ford's bread and butter, it's done little — a few British Rally Championships through factory-backed entrants (1987-88 admittedly hard-fought), and a Mondeo BTCC title against little opposition (though more than there was in the days when a Sierra Cosworth would literally win every race). For a company with so much motorsport heritage in decades past, it's sad.

[BDunnell]

One could argue that the decision by Honda was why Brawn succeeded the year after. Honda had pumped money in for years and years but something wasn't right, evidently that something that wasn't right was Honda. The situation with M-Sport is different. M-Sport have more control over what they spend their money on and the direction that the team takes.

I think that team would have won as Honda or Brawn, to be honest. It was Honda's money that, in large part, allowed Brawn to succeed.

[Daniel]

I think that team would have won as Honda or Brawn, to be honest. It was Honda's money that, in large part, allowed Brawn to succeed.

But it was the way that Brawn spent it that made the difference. He obviously didn't have the freedom he needed to succeed with Honda.

[BDunnell]

But it was the way that Brawn spent it that made the difference. He obviously didn't have the freedom he needed to succeed with Honda.

I'm still not sure.

[Daniel]

I'm still not sure.

I guess it's one of those things you can never be sure about......

[Daniel]

I don't think we should be surprised at all. I've posted this sentiment before, but Ford has, truth be told, done little of note in international motorsport for the past 30 years. The C100 sportscar programme was a disaster. It absurdly decided not to make any capital out of the great achievement of winning the 1994 F1 title as Benetton's engine supplier. Bits of WRC success with the Escort Cosworth and Focus never translated into anything consistent. The less said about the tie-up with Hotfiel Sport to produce a WTCC Focus the better. There's the odd exception — we never got to see how good the RS200 could have become because the end of Group B meant that it was never developed, the Sierra Cosworth was spectacular and did a huge amount to support various rallying and touring car championships by way of being readily available, and the Rouse-built Mondeo was briefly the best two-litre touring car in the world — but not much to write home about. Only in V8 Supercars has the Ford presence really brought about consistent honours. Even on the UK scene, once Ford's bread and butter, it's done little — a few British Rally Championships through factory-backed entrants (1987-88 admittedly hard-fought), and a Mondeo BTCC title against little opposition (though more than there was in the days when a Sierra Cosworth would literally win every race). For a company with so much motorsport heritage in decades past, it's sad.

It is very sad I agree. There is something to be said for running a successful campaign rather than just being there. Some will accuse me of being a glory hog for supporting Peugeot and Citroen for the last 15 years or so, but it was obvious they were always going to succeed. With the 206, Peugeot built on their knowledge of running the 306 and 106 Maxi's. They entered a few select rallies in '99 and then went out all guns blazing in 2000. Then Citroen came along with the Xsara which was based on the superior 306 platform which made packaging easier. The car eclipsed the 206 on its bogey events which were rough gravel and the Kinetic anti-Roll bars meant that they could have roll stiffness but not at the expense of articulation and tyre wear. It's things like this which say to me that these campaigns were properly managed with foresight and a view to winning. The 307 Crap Cabriolet WRCar was a joke, they allowed marketing people to choose the car rather than the engineers and it went wrong. Citroen kept on the right path and succeeded where Peugeot went wrong.

Ford/M-Sport's efforts in the WRC have never given the impression of this sort of foresight and vision and they've never really succeeded because of that. In my opinion of course......

[zako85]

Bad news for WRC and fans of Ford (like me), but certainly not the end of world. At least, the end of world gets postponed by a year. VW and Citroen should be able to provide a good two horse battle next year. What I worry more about is that if things go wrong for Citroen in 2013 , they might quit as well. Car sales in Europe aren't doing well, and PSA is in a difficult position.

[Daniel]

Bad news for WRC and fans of Ford (like me), but certainly not the end of world. At least, the end of world gets postponed by a year. VW and Citroen should be able to provide a good two horse battle next year. What I worry more about is that if things go wrong for Citroen in 2013 , they might quit as well. Car sales in Europe aren't doing well, and PSA is in a difficult position.

Have the Ford-Citroen years really been anything to be happy about though? I agree it would have been better if Ford was still in with M-Sport next year and we had a 3 horse race, it would have been an attractive proposition for another manufacturer looking to come in. Citroen will always have a good car and a properly managed team. That is 95% of the battle, the last 5% is Loeb :)

[BDunnell]

It is very sad I agree. There is something to be said for running a successful campaign rather than just being there. Some will accuse me of being a glory hog for supporting Peugeot and Citroen for the last 15 years or so, but it was obvious they were always going to succeed. With the 206, Peugeot built on their knowledge of running the 306 and 106 Maxi's. They entered a few select rallies in '99 and then went out all guns blazing in 2000. Then Citroen came along with the Xsara which was based on the superior 306 platform which made packaging easier. The car eclipsed the 206 on its bogey events which were rough gravel and the Kinetic anti-Roll bars meant that they could have roll stiffness but not at the expense of articulation and tyre wear. It's things like this which say to me that these campaigns were properly managed with foresight and a view to winning. The 307 Crap Cabriolet WRCar was a joke, they allowed marketing people to choose the car rather than the engineers and it went wrong. Citroen kept on the right path and succeeded where Peugeot went wrong.

Ford/M-Sport's efforts in the WRC have never given the impression of this sort of foresight and vision and they've never really succeeded because of that. In my opinion of course......

Leaving aside Matthew Wilson, where specifically do you think Ford went wrong in the WRC?

[BDunnell]

Have the Ford-Citroen years really been anything to be happy about though? I agree it would have been better if Ford was still in with M-Sport next year and we had a 3 horse race, it would have been an attractive proposition for another manufacturer looking to come in. Citroen will always have a good car and a properly managed team. That is 95% of the battle, the last 5% is Loeb :)

No, not to me. What is there, as an enthusiast (and one who doesn't like modern WRC cars) to be interested in?

I firmly believe manufacturers aren't the be-all and end-all in motorsport, but if they aren't to be there other entrants of sufficient quality have to come in to take their place. We have seen little or no sign of this in the WRC.

[Daniel]

Leaving aside Matthew Wilson, where specifically do you think Ford went wrong in the WRC?

I've only mentioned Matthew once or twice today? I think he's more of a symptom of the problems than a cause to be fair.

Like I said, he's always failed to bring a fast car and good drivers together.

When Subaru pulled out, why not bring Solberg in? With Solberg and Gronholm he was near on guaranteed manufacturers titles and wouldn't have had to rely on Seb breaking his arm.

His "Finn at all costs" strategy has failed dismally. Individually I think Latvala and Hirvonen are both great drivers, Latvala had the speed to be a number 1 if managed right and Hirvonen has shown this year that he's a superb number 2. But together they didn't work and it was clear. Malcolm just seems one of those "OK boys, next year will be our year" type people with no real vision of how to get there if you look at how things have gone.

[Mintexmemory]

I've only mentioned Matthew once or twice today? I think he's more of a symptom of the problems than a cause to be fair.

Like I said, he's always failed to bring a fast car and good drivers together.

When Subaru pulled out, why not bring Solberg in? With Solberg and Gronholm he was near on guaranteed manufacturers titles and wouldn't have had to rely on Seb breaking his arm.

His "Finn at all costs" strategy has failed dismally. Individually I think Latvala and Hirvonen are both great drivers, Latvala had the speed to be a number 1 if managed right and Hirvonen has shown this year that he's a superb number 2. But together they didn't work and it was clear. Malcolm just seems one of those "OK boys, next year will be our year" type people with no real vision of how to get there if you look at how things have gone.

This is the nub of the matter, when Gronholm retired Mikko wasn't up to holding no1 in a team (imo) with a still developing JML (who is only just starting to demonstrate the right level of maturity) it was essential to have someone who would focus the team and be a challenger - the right guy was Petter.

[noel157]

Leaving aside Matthew Wilson, where specifically do you think Ford went wrong in the WRC?

A big factor was profit before podium.

[Nornbugger]

A big factor was profit before podium.

Wow, damn MSport to hell for balancing the books, I thought you were more intelligent than this post Noel.

[Sladden]

They've always made a half RS'ed (see what I did there?) effort. They needed to step up their game when Peugeot came in, they had the best driver lineup for it, but they didn't. Then they built a fantastic car (the '03 WRC) and had a driver who simply wasn't quite a number 1 driver yet (Markko) as their main driver and Duval as 2nd. If they had kept either Sainz or McRae then they would have had far more success.

For far too long, Malcolm pursued a policy of "if you want to win, take a Finn" to try and beat Seb. Latvala could have been that driver if he was 2nd to a solid driver who was challenging Loeb and allowing Latvala to build speed, but no, Ford chose a 2nd driver (Latvala) to be their 1st.

The team was mismanaged and I'm sure if there was no one else competing, then they would find some way of losing.
Good points!
M-Sport always made strange desicions. When driver line up was there (McRae Sainz) the car was not quite there. And then comes a good car in 03 but no driver lineup to match. That car was basicly wasted in those 3 years. Either or...not both at the same time. But as I recall it was the same old story of finding a budget... the total comitment was never really there to win.
More like hanging around and making money for M Sport? I dont know...

[fastboy]

I believe Malcolm has been let down badly by some drivers over the years who have blown drivers title oppurtunities by poor driving.Ford should of had 3 drivers titles in last 11 years but for poor driving.Colin Mcrae in 01 only had to finish behind Burns to secure the title but drove way beyond the limit that was needed at that rally.A great time by Gronholm on the previous stage before the accident wound Colin up who was chasing the rally win and not the result required to win championship.He said afterwards it was the only regret he had in his career and this was the first driver **** up that cost malcolm.It was totally unavoidable!!!
The second one was Marcus in 2006 Seb had broken his collerbone? and if marcus had won all the last four rallies he would of won the championship.Yes it would of been a bit hollow but still would of been another drivers title.No one could touch loeb or gronholm so he could win with out Loeb around and not needing to push 100%.What did he do but stick it off the road in japan or was it australia under no pressure and hand Loeb another title.And again letting m-sport down.
The 3rd one was Marcus again in 2007 he lost the title by 2 points but poor driving cost malc another title.First of all he was just ahead of Duval going in to last stage in Germany and he made a error going from 2nd to 4th losing 4 points.But more importantly he was 4 points clear with 2 rounds to go.He was sitting in 2 nd/3rd a few seconds behind Loeb after 3 stages and got carried away thinking he could challenge Loeb for win which was not needed.He could afford to finish 2nd or 3rd and then would have to finish in front of loeb to secure title in GB.But as previously he didnt use his brain and settle for a position resulting in big off in ireland which they tried to blame on oil on road but telemtry showed they entered corner 12 kmh faster than other drivers.
Marcus and Colin were 2 of the best drivers ever in the history but let malc and m-sport down.They were given good enough cars to win titles but failed to deliver.And Latvala let malc down so many times everybody knows that if he had delivered they may of had a couple more manufactures titles.
I also believe m-sport/ford have also ****ed up big time as well with some of there decisions but for me malc has been let down by drivers far to often.I would imagine there was a few drivers after Ford announcement thinking if only i had !!!!!!!!

Only my thoughts and i am sure a lot of people will dis agree but some drivers failed to deliver what they had been given.

[rv65]

I should also mention a funny story that a friend told me a few months ago. I can't remember which rally it was at, but he was sitting down in the Ford hospitality area with a nice big expensive motorhome. The M-Sport mechanics were bitching about how Ford didn't give enough money to M-Sport and then Gerald Quinn came along and angrily pointed out that the motorhome, all the flashy stuff..... was purchased by M-Sport with money which could have been spent on the development of the cars or drivers salaries.

It's funny how Mismanagement, M-Sport and Malcolm all start with M *strokes chin*

This is actually true, as the hospitality suite was purchased by M-Sport and I knew about this for well over a year.

[noel157]

Wow, damn MSport to hell for balancing the books, I thought you were more intelligent than this post Noel.

Was the balancing of the books done in the big motorhome/glorified chip van?

[BDunnell]

This is the nub of the matter, when Gronholm retired Mikko wasn't up to holding no1 in a team (imo) with a still developing JML (who is only just starting to demonstrate the right level of maturity) it was essential to have someone who would focus the team and be a challenger - the right guy was Petter.

But there may be all sorts of reasons we don't know about as to why Solberg wasn't signed.

[BDunnell]

Only my thoughts and i am sure a lot of people will dis agree but some drivers failed to deliver what they had been given.

I'm sure there is truth in what you say. To lay all the blame in one quarter is surely simplistic. And, as I said earlier, it's not just with M-Sport that Ford has failed to deliver on its potential in motorsport. It is quite a consistent pattern. As a company, does it 'get' motorsport any more?

[sollitt]

What achievements? Simply being there isn't an achievement. Actually Daniel, being there is quite an achievement. In a sport with just 3 or 4 teams, half of which throw in the towel every other year, fronting with the machinery on 220 odd consecutive events is quite something. Taking victory on 1 in 4 of those events is also not to be sneezed at. To have given us the excitement of Gronholm vs Loeb battles, including the closest finish in WRC history, and to have gifted us the spectacles that were Duval, Martin and more recently Latvala, are things we should also be thankful for ... amongst very much more.

It is very easy to be a critic, to presume from the sideline that you know more than those actually fighting the war. That is very much your genre. Time to grow up.

Malcolm Wilson was an accomplished driver in his own right and has gone on to contribute hugely to the WRC as a team owner. Long may he continue to do so.

[BDunnell]

Actually Daniel, being there is quite an achievement. In a sport with just 3 or 4 teams, half of which throw in the towel every other year, fronting with the machinery on 220 odd consecutive events is quite something.

I agree very much with this. The rest of the paean of praise is a tad gushing, though.

[ste898]

Have the Ford-Citroen years really been anything to be happy about though? I agree it would have been better if Ford was still in with M-Sport next year and we had a 3 horse race, it would have been an attractive proposition for another manufacturer looking to come in. Citroen will always have a good car and a properly managed team. That is 95% of the battle, the last 5% is Loeb :)


Best post I have seen on here in a while well done Daniel

[ste898]

Was the balancing of the books done in the big motorhome/glorified chip van?

Oh dear are you the same Noel157 from the Irish forum?

You must be talking the same crap as on there

[COD]

M-sport was originally chosen, because of the REALLY poor results Ford in-house operation in Boreham achieved. Results got much better after the operation was taken over by M-Sport.
Last rally car designed in Boreham was Fiesta s1600 and you old enough to remember that will know how good that was...

[stefanvv]

M-sport was originally chosen, because of the REALLY poor results Ford in-house operation in Boreham achieved. Results got much better after the operation was taken over by M-Sport.
Last rally car designed in Boreham was Fiesta s1600 and you old enough to remember that will know how good that was...

I'm old enough to remember also Escort RS Cosworth. But in general you're right - M-Sport make good cars with small budget...

[rallye-vid]

Cosworth is for sale now: Cosworth steht zum Verkauf*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/10/18/cosworth-steht-zum-verkauf/index.html)

[stefanvv]

Cosworth is for sale now: Cosworth steht zum Verkauf*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2012/10/18/cosworth-steht-zum-verkauf/index.html)

Well, well, well, this is probably worse that I thought :(

[Coach 2]

M-Sport has made many good and some bad decisions (primarily tactical choices). They had perhaps the best car from 2003 to 2007. From 2007 to 2012, they probably had as good a car as the Citroen. Wages as Carlos and Colin demanded, was not possible and meet in 2003, at least not in combination with developing a new car. And the 2003 Ford WRC was a small revolution, may well not be discussed. The results of the first asphalt races, confirms this. As another forum meber wrote, M-Sport has several times allso been let down by its drivers.

But which opponent has Ford / M-Sport had during that period.
The opponent may have been the best team rally world has seen, with certainty the best, most reliable driver the world has seen.

So for God's sake, Loeb and PSA-lovers, can't you just be proud of what PSA and Loeb has done, and stop the harassment of others who simply wish or hope that dominance would end, for the sport's sake.

[noel157]

M-sport was originally chosen, because of the REALLY poor results Ford in-house operation in Boreham achieved. Results got much better after the operation was taken over by M-Sport.
Last rally car designed in Boreham was Fiesta s1600 and you old enough to remember that will know how good that was...

They need Stuart Turner back......

[gravelman]

They need Stuart Turner back......
Strip the diff out of a passing mondeo too if hey were stuck while they're at it!!!

[Arganil]

I don’t understand all this love for Ford – their record in the WRC is pretty woeful.

Yet they have kept running...hard to find bigger proof of their love for the sport! At the end it's a simple question of reciprocity.

Ford has been in WRC almost permanently since the series beggining. In the process they give the sport some of the most iconic rally cars, like the Escort RS1600 and RS1800, the RS200, the Sierra and Escort Cosworth and the more recent versions of Focus WRC.

They're linked to rally like no other manufacturer*, so we can only hope that this stop it's a brief break and wish for their quick return!

*I just wish italian makes, my favourites, could have been so commited to rally as Ford did...

[janvanvurpa]

M-sport was originally chosen, because of the REALLY poor results Ford in-house operation in Boreham achieved. Results got much better after the operation was taken over by M-Sport.
Last rally car designed in Boreham was Fiesta s1600 and you old enough to remember that will know how good that was...


Eer er um... Er er er um!
Um.
RS200
Sierra RS--3 door---did pretty good with some Sweden and some old Finn --Very Hatanen or something
Sierra RS 4x4--didn't do too bad on gravel...after the WRC debut in some country full of swamps, suomY or whatever. I saw these when i was at boreham for a series of job interviews...
Escort RS Cosworth---won its first International, and almost won its first WRC---Monte 93---I was there.
Escort World Rally Car---some Finn name Furry Maatanen did pretty good..

And just a year or so, maybe this year at Swedish WRC---Sweden is a country somewhere across the Östersjön from Finland, turn left at Åland and drive straight west until you can't understand what people say and you're in Värmland, you can't miss it -----there was a very old guy named Mats Jonsson in a now ancient 1997 spec World Rally Car Escort whose SS times in the Swedish Champignonskit event behind MM was right behind the real WRC drivers and before all the youngsters and tourists...or, about 5th-6th

I think :rolleyes: Boreham had some part in those cars...they were working on them when I was interviewed----and 12 +13 years later they did sell me parts for by 4wd Cossie Rallycar..

Did you forget Group B and group A years?

[rp]

I think that it is not so bad situation like media has created. The message was clear that Ford is to withdraw from the WRC as a title sponsor and it was somehow strange expression..

If and then M-Sport is able to find main sponsor (hopefully Qatar) there will be no difference during the next season. Ford is still giving technical support and M-Sport is developing their current and future cars (Fiesta R5).

And Gerard Quinn said that M-Sport and Ford are already now also designing future World Rally Cars. So surely they are not giving up...

[Nornbugger]

Was the balancing of the books done in the big motorhome/glorified chip van?

In part yes it was, sponsors want enertained, when they bring guests now they want comfort and a bit of glitz, obviously the MSport treatment of sponsors and guests is something they do well as unlike Subaru, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Peugeot and Hyundia they got them and managed to keep them for decent periods.

janvanvurpa, you mention a lot of cars there that did decent, but didnt set any records, the RS200 in particular did a lot less than it should have.

MSport have made many mistakes over the years, I seem to remember a wet Germany one year(not an uncommon thing) when they had done no wet testing, even this weekend Latvala running 1st was an odd call, but they dont deserve the **** being thrown at them by so many on here.

[BDunnell]

RS200

We never saw how good that car might have been, because Group B was banned soon after its debut and thus Ford had no reason to bring out an evolution model. Its record in the WRC in 1986 was pretty woeful — quick on occasion, but very unreliable. Of course, it did win the British championship, but in so doing Mark Lovell didn't win any of the individual events.



Sierra RS--3 door---did pretty good with some Sweden and some old Finn --Very Hatanen or something

As I said, the Cosworth was an excellent car in terms of being readily available, but Ford was never going to win the WRC with it in two-wheel-drive form. I suppose it was a case of them going with what they had when Group A became the main WRC formula.



Sierra RS 4x4--didn't do too bad on gravel...after the WRC debut in some country full of swamps, suomY or whatever. I saw these when i was at boreham for a series of job interviews...

Ford should have brought this car out sooner than 1990, really. And by the time it appeared it was already largely outclassed.



Escort RS Cosworth---won its first International, and almost won its first WRC---Monte 93---I was there.

Yes, but again, it never won the title. A pattern can be seen developing.

[BDunnell]

janvanvurpa, you mention a lot of cars there that did decent, but didnt set any records, the RS200 in particular did a lot less than it should have.

There were, as I mentioned above, extenuating circumstances for that.

[AndyRAC]

Yes, but again, it never won the title. A pattern can be seen developing.

Exactly - when something keeps happening - it's not bad luck. And there's a huge sample size to back this up.

What about the Escort RS1700T...when the main competition was 4WD......

[dimviii]

Exactly - when something keeps happening - it's not bad luck. And there's a huge sample size to back this up.

What about the Escort RS1700T...when the main competition was 4WD......

Didn t see this at stages.Also dont forget that Lancia won with 2wd against 4wdrives(037)

[AndyRAC]

No, it didn't hit the world stages as the project was canned.

[Daniel]

But there may be all sorts of reasons we don't know about as to why Solberg wasn't signed.

The ill feelings between Wilson and Solberg are well known. Why Finn at all costs when they could have had Solberg?

[Daniel]

Actually Daniel, being there is quite an achievement. In a sport with just 3 or 4 teams, half of which throw in the towel every other year, fronting with the machinery on 220 odd consecutive events is quite something. Taking victory on 1 in 4 of those events is also not to be sneezed at. To have given us the excitement of Gronholm vs Loeb battles, including the closest finish in WRC history, and to have gifted us the spectacles that were Duval, Martin and more recently Latvala, are things we should also be thankful for ... amongst very much more.

It is very easy to be a critic, to presume from the sideline that you know more than those actually fighting the war. That is very much your genre. Time to grow up.

Malcolm Wilson was an accomplished driver in his own right and has gone on to contribute hugely to the WRC as a team owner. Long may he continue to do so.

Growing old doesn't equal growing up as you yourself prove Brucie :) Whilst it may be easy to snipe from the sidelines it seems to be even easier for you to ignore the rather obvious failings and lack of success which has plagued M-Sport.

[rallyfiend]

The ill feelings between Wilson and Solberg are well known. Why Finn at all costs when they could have had Solberg?

Solberg is contributing money for his drive this year - it's amazing what wounds can be healed with cold, hard cash.

[Daniel]

M-Sport has made many good and some bad decisions (primarily tactical choices). They had perhaps the best car from 2003 to 2007. From 2007 to 2012, they probably had as good a car as the Citroen. Wages as Carlos and Colin demanded, was not possible and meet in 2003, at least not in combination with developing a new car. And the 2003 Ford WRC was a small revolution, may well not be discussed. The results of the first asphalt races, confirms this. As another forum meber wrote, M-Sport has several times allso been let down by its drivers.

But which opponent has Ford / M-Sport had during that period.
The opponent may have been the best team rally world has seen, with certainty the best, most reliable driver the world has seen.

So for God's sake, Loeb and PSA-lovers, can't you just be proud of what PSA and Loeb has done, and stop the harassment of others who simply wish or hope that dominance would end, for the sport's sake.

I want a proper competition, that's the thing! I loved seeing Peugeot triumph in 2000 with Gronholm and again in 2002. I LOVED that. It was made sweeter by the fact that Burns had won in 2001 with Carlos and Colin there too. Solberg did his thing in 2003 and we'd had 3 different champions in three years. That's the level of competition I wanted and Ford in recent years just haven't offered that.

[Daniel]

I believe Malcolm has been let down badly by some drivers over the years who have blown drivers title oppurtunities by poor driving.Ford should of had 3 drivers titles in last 11 years but for poor driving.Colin Mcrae in 01 only had to finish behind Burns to secure the title but drove way beyond the limit that was needed at that rally.A great time by Gronholm on the previous stage before the accident wound Colin up who was chasing the rally win and not the result required to win championship.He said afterwards it was the only regret he had in his career and this was the first driver **** up that cost malcolm.It was totally unavoidable!!!
The second one was Marcus in 2006 Seb had broken his collerbone? and if marcus had won all the last four rallies he would of won the championship.Yes it would of been a bit hollow but still would of been another drivers title.No one could touch loeb or gronholm so he could win with out Loeb around and not needing to push 100%.What did he do but stick it off the road in japan or was it australia under no pressure and hand Loeb another title.And again letting m-sport down.
The 3rd one was Marcus again in 2007 he lost the title by 2 points but poor driving cost malc another title.First of all he was just ahead of Duval going in to last stage in Germany and he made a error going from 2nd to 4th losing 4 points.But more importantly he was 4 points clear with 2 rounds to go.He was sitting in 2 nd/3rd a few seconds behind Loeb after 3 stages and got carried away thinking he could challenge Loeb for win which was not needed.He could afford to finish 2nd or 3rd and then would have to finish in front of loeb to secure title in GB.But as previously he didnt use his brain and settle for a position resulting in big off in ireland which they tried to blame on oil on road but telemtry showed they entered corner 12 kmh faster than other drivers.
Marcus and Colin were 2 of the best drivers ever in the history but let malc and m-sport down.They were given good enough cars to win titles but failed to deliver.And Latvala let malc down so many times everybody knows that if he had delivered they may of had a couple more manufactures titles.
I also believe m-sport/ford have also ****ed up big time as well with some of there decisions but for me malc has been let down by drivers far to often.I would imagine there was a few drivers after Ford announcement thinking if only i had !!!!!!!!

Only my thoughts and i am sure a lot of people will dis agree but some drivers failed to deliver what they had been given.

If you don't give a guy like Gronholm a car to match his rival then he's going to overdrive and you're going to see crashes. Also, only an idiot hires a guy like Duval who was inconsistent at best and puts him in a car with little competitive miles in the car and doesn't expect him to do what he did. I think it's a bit sad of you to try and blame Marcus for "letting" Malcolm down, Colin, well I'll give you that.....

[Daniel]

Solberg is contributing money for his drive this year - it's amazing what wounds can be healed with cold, hard cash.

and I'm sure back years ago Petter would have brought sponsorship money with him too :)

[BDunnell]

What about the Escort RS1700T...when the main competition was 4WD......

Well, at least they had the good sense to can that before it embarrassed them.

[Viking]

and I'm sure back years ago Petter would have brought sponsorship money with him too :)

Petter is sponsoring even Jari-Mattis car ;)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/420515_10151255920410733_2116567244_n.jpg

[Sladden]

If you don't give a guy like Gronholm a car to match his rival then he's going to overdrive and you're going to see crashes. Also, only an idiot hires a guy like Duval who was inconsistent at best and puts him in a car with little competitive miles in the car and doesn't expect him to do what he did. I think it's a bit sad of you to try and blame Marcus for "letting" Malcolm down, Colin, well I'll give you that.....
I think what also cost titles was poor realiability 1999-2004...causing overdriving to catch up and so on.
And also not forgetting the pirellis on tarmac...that would definetly have made a difference in 2001 title chase. So... bad calls along the way.

[Nornbugger]

If you don't give a guy like Gronholm a car to match his rival then he's going to overdrive and you're going to see crashes. Also, only an idiot hires a guy like Duval who was inconsistent at best and puts him in a car with little competitive miles in the car and doesn't expect him to do what he did. I think it's a bit sad of you to try and blame Marcus for "letting" Malcolm down, Colin, well I'll give you that.....

Duval promised a lot early on, he was very quick, dont let your obvious prejudices blind you to fact, also Gronholm Australia 06, he had no real competition for the win here. Still I do believe that had he needed too Loeb would have got out of bed to score a point or 2 in GB if he had to so its debateable if this really was a missed chance

[COD]

Eer er um... Er er er um!
Um.
RS200
Sierra RS--3 door---did pretty good with some Sweden and some old Finn --Very Hatanen or something
Sierra RS 4x4--didn't do too bad on gravel...after the WRC debut in some country full of swamps, suomY or whatever. I saw these when i was at boreham for a series of job interviews...
Escort RS Cosworth---won its first International, and almost won its first WRC---Monte 93---I was there.
Escort World Rally Car---some Finn name Furry Maatanen did pretty good..

And just a year or so, maybe this year at Swedish WRC---Sweden is a country somewhere across the Östersjön from Finland, turn left at Åland and drive straight west until you can't understand what people say and you're in Värmland, you can't miss it -----there was a very old guy named Mats Jonsson in a now ancient 1997 spec World Rally Car Escort whose SS times in the Swedish Champignonskit event behind MM was right behind the real WRC drivers and before all the youngsters and tourists...or, about 5th-6th

I think :rolleyes: Boreham had some part in those cars...they were working on them when I was interviewed----and 12 +13 years later they did sell me parts for by 4wd Cossie Rallycar..

Did you forget Group B and group A years?

I'm not saying those were all bad cars, but never top contenders everywhere and all championship around as many have pointed out here. And the point I had, was that by -97/98 when M-sport took over, boreham had lost their mark.

And the Escort WRC actually only got really competitive after M-Sport took over.

[Coach 2]

I want a proper competition, that's the thing! I loved seeing Peugeot triumph in 2000 with Gronholm and again in 2002. I LOVED that. It was made sweeter by the fact that Burns had won in 2001 with Carlos and Colin there too. Solberg did his thing in 2003 and we'd had 3 different champions in three years. That's the level of competition I wanted and Ford in recent years just haven't offered that.

I was not referring to you specifically Daniel, when I talked about Lovers (you did not think that either, maybe).
But that some teams dominate a sport over time is not new. It has happened many times in F1.
What I mean to say is that it does not necessarily say that the other teams are bad. When a team find the winning formula, and also manages to improve all the time, then often the other team look bad. The team that is in the zone, getting a confirmation that what they do is right in that they actually win.
I think many people underestimate how difficult it is to find the right setup for all surfaces, all over the world, under any conditions, and with different drivers. That Citroen is in the zone are also confirmed with Hirvonen's results.
I would say that the Citroen team is ****ing great, and Ford certainly is not bad.

[Daniel]

Duval promised a lot early on, he was very quick, dont let your obvious prejudices blind you to fact, also Gronholm Australia 06, he had no real competition for the win here. Still I do believe that had he needed too Loeb would have got out of bed to score a point or 2 in GB if he had to so its debateable if this really was a missed chance

I liked Duval, back in the days when Loeb only had a title or two, I proudly proclaimed that Francois would be the next new champion. How wrong I was......

[Daniel]

I think what also cost titles was poor realiability 1999-2004...causing overdriving to catch up and so on.
And also not forgetting the pirellis on tarmac...that would definetly have made a difference in 2001 title chase. So... bad calls along the way.

I agree with the Pirelli thing, but that was Malcolm's choice :) As for reliability? Until the Xsara came along, the Focus won a large number of the rough gravel events like Cyprus, Safari and Acropolis. One could argue on the other hand that Pirelli's were the best choice for Ford, it played to their strengths on rough gravel :)

[sollitt]

Whilst it may be easy to snipe from the sidelines it seems to be even easier for you to ignore the rather obvious failings and lack of success which has plagued M-Sport.I guess, Daniel, that depends entirely on whether you have a 'glass half full' or 'glass half empty' attitude.
And that's probably determined by whether you have a genuine interest in the sport through involvement and participation or whether your only involvement is as a computer jockey with a penchant for criticism.
When you are amongst the former, recognition and understanding of achievement comes naturally.

[RAS007]

I guess, Daniel, that depends entirely on whether you have a 'glass half full' or 'glass half empty' attitude.
And that's probably determined by whether you have a genuine interest in the sport through involvement and participation or whether your only involvement is as a computer jockey with a penchant for criticism.
When you are amongst the former, recognition and understanding of achievement comes naturally.

Wow.

[Barreis]

Looking from distance 16 years of cooperation of ford and M-sport wasn't that good - only 2 manu titles that Gronholm gave them.

[Daniel]

I guess, Daniel, that depends entirely on whether you have a 'glass half full' or 'glass half empty' attitude.
And that's probably determined by whether you have a genuine interest in the sport through involvement and participation or whether your only involvement is as a computer jockey with a penchant for criticism.
When you are amongst the former, recognition and understanding of achievement comes naturally.

Hilarious Solitt :) There needs to be a balance between criticism and gushing praise. You seem to have no ability to criticise anyone in any position of power in the WRC. Garry Connelly, top fellow even though if you speak to the right people you'll find that he was vindictive towards certain drivers and teams for no good reason, the FIA, great organisation, one which took us from a sport which 10 years ago would have come as close as it has since the 80's to rivalling F1 and Malcolm, a team owner who has competed for longer than most teams yet had less success than all bar Seat, Skoda, Hyundai and Suzuki.

All your involvement with the sport in your country has sadly blinded you to how shambolic some of the characters involved are.

P.S I've spoken to others with far deeper involvement in the WRC than yourself and quite a few are scathing in their criticism of the people and organisations that I've mentioned.

[rallyfiend]

You don't have to dig too far in to the WRC to hear scathing and vicious opinions of the FIA and the way they treated NOS, managed their problems early this year, dealt with finding a successor, or are even dealing with the vacuum of silence since making an appointment for 2013.
Ford's departure can be placed squarely at their feet. They drove their major sponsor out of the sport (Abu Dhabi), screwed the promoter and the TV plans for the year, stuffed around getting a promoter, and actually have little for anyone to sign up for next year anyway.
Why would you stay?

[Daniel]

You don't have to dig too far in to the WRC to hear scathing and vicious opinions of the FIA and the way they treated NOS, managed their problems early this year, dealt with finding a successor, or are even dealing with the vacuum of silence since making an appointment for 2013.
Ford's departure can be placed squarely at their feet. They drove their major sponsor out of the sport (Abu Dhabi), screwed the promoter and the TV plans for the year, stuffed around getting a promoter, and actually have little for anyone to sign up for next year anyway.
Why would you stay?

Exactly. Now I'm obviously not a Malcolm fan, but if the FIA hadn't mismanaged the sport then Ford being 2nd or 3rd or 4th to other teams wouldn't be a problem. But Malcolm certainly didn't help himself or the sport either by poorly managing the team and diverting funds and focus (pun intended) from what should have been his main focus with his son. I am sad it's come to this, but I can't be sad that Ford is leaving because ...... why would you stay?

[klek_fi]

but now on, everything is fine when Ford is gone, and Wrc gets all the lost glory back,
when there is two superteams, Citroen and VW
happy,happy

[ste898]

but now on, everything is fine when Ford is gone, and Wrc gets all the lost glory back,
when there is two superteams, Citroen and VW
happy,happy

What a stupid post....without Ford WRC is nothing at all

[sollitt]

You seem to have no ability to criticise anyone in any position of power in the WRC. Oh Daniel, how very wrong you are.
One of the things that age gives you, if you are indeed anything of a doer as opposed to a talker, is experiences and with those experiences comes knowledge and understanding.And knowledge and understanding enables one to recognise achievement and contribution without necessarily being a particular fan.
For example ... I am no particular fan of Loeb but I certainly recognise his achievement, I am also no particular fan of Connelly but I absolutely recognise his contribution, and I am not at all a fan of the FIA but I understand their role and the motives for many of their actions.

Without maturity, knowledge and understanding you are only able to criticise. In contrast I am able, and prefer, to 'critique'. That is the difference between us.

Am I a particular fan of Malcolm Wilson ? ... no. Am I absolutely satisfied with the results M-Sport has achieved over many years ? ... no. But maturity enables me to put aside the disappointments and celebrate the achievements, of which there have been many. To not do so is disingenuous and childish.

Malcolm Wilson and his company have contributed hugely to our enjoyment of the WRC over many years and are deserving of our recognition and respect, not of your immature, venomous contempt.

[rallyfun]

What a stupid post....without Ford WRC is nothing at all

Lets shut down WRC then

[Arganil]

We're forgetting the possible main reason why Ford is quitting and Citroen almost did it: economic crisis over Europe.

European auto sales are in a huge decline, creating big losses to almost every manufacturer. And recovery date is uncertain as many predict we will have 3 or 4 more years of struglling business.

http://europe.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121016/ANE/310169909/europe-hit-by-biggest-car-sales-drop-in-almost-2-years

In this recessive environment manus will avoid to invest primarily in europe, directing their financial resources into more lucrative markets around the world like China, India, Brasil and so on.

As WRC is still too much european based (10 events from the total 13), it's not surprising to see manus leaving.

FIA understood this danger some time ago, and revealed a plan to turn WRC more global, but time is running out and the 2013 unchanged calendar (without Brasil and South Africa expected events) was a very disapointing revelation of FIA incapacity.

It's crucial for WRC future to speed out the globalisation process and FIA must provide, with the help of the promoter, a strong support for worldwide newcomers events in order to avoid more delays. Otherwise international rally future could become very uncertain and limited to a second level championship like the ERC.

[rallyfun]

We're forgetting the possible main reason why Ford is quitting and Citroen almost did it: economic crisis over Europe.

European auto sales are in a huge decline, creating big losses to almost every manufacturer. And recovery date is uncertain as many predict we will have 3 or 4 more years of struglling business.

http://europe.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121016/ANE/310169909/europe-hit-by-biggest-car-sales-drop-in-almost-2-years

In this recessive environment manus will avoid to invest primarily in europe, directing their financial resources into more lucrative markets around the world like China, India, Brasil and so on.

As WRC is still too much european based (10 events from the total 13), it's not surprising to see manus leaving.

FIA understood this danger some time ago, and revealed a plan to turn WRC more global, but time is running out and the 2013 unchanged calendar (without Brasil and South Africa expected events) was a very disapointing revelation of FIA incapacity.

It's crucial for WRC future to speed out the globalisation process and FIA must provide, with the help of the promoter, a strong support for worldwide newcomers events in order to avoid more delays. Otherwise international rally future could become very uncertain and limited to a second level championship like the ERC.

The problem with this and many other issues is that FIA decisions are often not supported by teams, there seems to be no clear politics as to where, when and how to run calendar. I don't know what is the process of "awarding" WRC rallies, they came up with so many ideas and then just gave up like rotation thing from 2009/2010.

[Herbie Starkey]

I posted a month or so ago saying that Loeb and Citroen inadvertently are the downfall of the WRC and causing Ford to quit (much to peoples disgust!!)...i dont think they would have quit if they had won a drivers or manufacturers championship in the past year or two. I still standby that theory. For the love of the championship i hope VW dont win next year...could be another Citroen domination in the making. Solberg, Ostberg and Novikov for the M-Sport assault? Hopefully :)

[rallyfiend]

4,500 jobs yesterday, 1,400 today.

BBC News - Ford to cut 1,400 car jobs in Southampton and Dagenham (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20083272)

you can understand why a WRC programme is the last thing on their minds....

[Rallyper]

4,500 jobs yesterday, 1,400 today.

BBC News - Ford to cut 1,400 car jobs in Southampton and Dagenham (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20083272)

you can understand why a WRC programme is the last thing on their minds....

Yes and - no. Having a future without some kind of marketing will lead only to death. Ford is motorsport - motorsport for Ford is rallying. That´s why Ford should have at least a little on their minds about rallying.

[BDunnell]

Ford is motorsport - motorsport for Ford is rallying.

I don't think Ford has 'been' motorsport since the late 1970s or early '80s, quite frankly.

[Barreis]

At least they cancelled wrc cooperation with M-sport profiters. :D

[Rallyper]

I don't think Ford has 'been' motorsport since the late 1970s or early '80s, quite frankly.

Well, I´m not english, but can still feel what the answer would be if you´d ask an englishman about that.

[Daniel]

Oh Daniel, how very wrong you are.
One of the things that age gives you, if you are indeed anything of a doer as opposed to a talker, is experiences and with those experiences comes knowledge and understanding.And knowledge and understanding enables one to recognise achievement and contribution without necessarily being a particular fan.
For example ... I am no particular fan of Loeb but I certainly recognise his achievement, I am also no particular fan of Connelly but I absolutely recognise his contribution, and I am not at all a fan of the FIA but I understand their role and the motives for many of their actions.

Without maturity, knowledge and understanding you are only able to criticise. In contrast I am able, and prefer, to 'critique'. That is the difference between us.

Am I a particular fan of Malcolm Wilson ? ... no. Am I absolutely satisfied with the results M-Sport has achieved over many years ? ... no. But maturity enables me to put aside the disappointments and celebrate the achievements, of which there have been many. To not do so is disingenuous and childish.

Malcolm Wilson and his company have contributed hugely to our enjoyment of the WRC over many years and are deserving of our recognition and respect, not of your immature, venomous contempt.


That's your opinion. Funny how you've not acknowledged all of the criticisms and obvious failings of M-Sport which have resulted in them getting the boot. I like good competition and don't take the view that having an extra Ken Block, Matty Wilson or M-Sport adds all that much to the sport.

If you're running a team which is winning, then like Cesare, you can allow your son to have a play in a top flight car. That said, Alex Fiorio was actually a decent driver.

I think Sean Connery said it best in "The Rock" when he said "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen!"

If you think that mediocrity is something that should be applauded, celebrated and even supported then I guess that's up to you :)

[Daniel]

Well, I´m not english, but can still feel what the answer would be if you´d ask an englishman about that.

BDunnell is English so can answer that question just fine :) Ford haven't been all that successful in international motorsport for a long time sadly.........

[BDunnell]

That's your opinion. Funny how you've not acknowledged all of the criticisms and obvious failings of M-Sport which have resulted in them getting the boot. I like good competition and don't take the view that having an extra Ken Block, Matty Wilson or M-Sport adds all that much to the sport.

If you're running a team which is winning, then like Cesare, you can allow your son to have a play in a top flight car. That said, Alex Fiorio was actually a decent driver.

I think Sean Connery said it best in "The Rock" when he said "Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and **** the prom queen!"

If you think that mediocrity is something that should be applauded, celebrated and even supported then I guess that's up to you :)

By the same token, they haven't exactly been unsuccessful, have they? I mean, the company's cars have won several rallies and said company has made a lot of money.

[Daniel]

By the same token, they haven't exactly been unsuccessful, have they? I mean, the company's cars have won several rallies and said company has made a lot of money.

Yes, but during the era where Subaru, Ford, Peugeot and Citroen were all competitive, they were usually at the tail end....... Their recent success is more down to the fact that there is no one else to finish in front of them aside from Citroen.

[Franky]

That's your opinion. Funny how you've not acknowledged all of the criticisms and obvious failings of M-Sport which have resulted in them getting the boot.

But why didn't they get a boot already at the end of 2004 and all the other years when the decision to continue came very late in the season?

[Rallyper]

BDunnell is English so can answer that question just fine :) Ford haven't been all that successful in international motorsport for a long time sadly.........

Sucessful wasn´t what I meant. It´s not always necessary. I meant that Ford and motorsport and particulary rallying is inseparable no matter what sucess achieved.

[BDunnell]

Sucessful wasn´t what I meant. It´s not always necessary. I meant that Ford and motorsport and particulary rallying is inseparable no matter what sucess achieved.

I think this is debatable, for exactly the reason mentioned earlier — that Ford's pretty mediocre (at best) record in the last 30 years no longer renders that past success all that relevant.

[driveace]

ESay to see why Ford have decoded to quit the WRC after the announcements today regarding Transit building at Southampton ,and the Gent factory.It would have looked silly to still go rallying and pay MSport millions to run a rally team and on the same hand lay off or sack 5thousand employees.Dont think this has anything to dp with Loebs fantastic success in the French car,which after all was a factory run car as was the rally winning Escorts of the 70 sand early 80s ,whereas the Focus and lately the Fiesta have been run by a satellite team ,and that team has to make a profit .So yes Malcolm has made millions ,but now it has ended and M Sport must stand or fall on their success in 2013 and beyond ?

[MikeD]

But why didn't they get a boot already at the end of 2004 and all the other years when the decision to continue came very late in the season?

Because the economic crisis we have is the worst since WW2 and it's forcing huge cutbacks everywhere ... and especially in the car industri which is suffering badly (except VAG and BMW). Ford couldn't justify an unsuccesful rally programme at the same time they are laying people of everywhere.

[cali]

Yes, but during the era where Subaru, Ford, Peugeot and Citroen were all competitive, they were usually at the tail end....... Their recent success is more down to the fact that there is no one else to finish in front of them aside from Citroen.
Oh you mean that time when in 2000 Carlos was 3rd and Colin 4th. 2001 McRae was 2nd, 2002 Carlos was 3rd. 2003 they had fastest car but very unreliable - Markko was 5th but took the most stage wins. Did you mean that era when they were at the tail end?

[Daniel]

Oh you mean that time when in 2000 Carlos was 3rd and Colin 4th. 2001 McRae was 2nd, 2002 Carlos was 3rd. 2003 they had fastest car but very unreliable - Markko was 5th but took the most stage wins. Did you mean that era when they were at the tail end?

OK that does seem a bit stupid....... *holds hand up* I guess I've always judged a teams success on whether they can take a driver to a championship :)

[cali]

Whatever you say but this does not look like they have been "at the tail end".

[Daniel]

Whatever you say but this does not look like they have been "at the tail end".

Like I said, I was wrong.

[COD]

Can't anyone read? The statement said: "Ford will not be the title sponsor anymore"
Later it reads, that they will continue technical co-operation with M-Sport. So, again, Wilson needs to find new title sponsor for running Ford cars in Wrc. Ford name will still be presen, one way or the other

[focus206]

Can't anyone read? The statement said: "Ford will not be the title sponsor anymore"
Later it reads, that they will continue technical co-operation with M-Sport. So, again, Wilson needs to find new title sponsor for running Ford cars in Wrc. Ford name will still be presen, one way or the other

Hmmm... then I'm sorry but I don't really get what will happen... what will change for Ford/M-Sport next season? Even less financial support (or even 0) or what? :S

[Rally Hokkaido]

Hmmm... then I'm sorry but I don't really get what will happen... what will change for Ford/M-Sport next season? Even less financial support (or even 0) or what? :S
Well, it is unlikely that we will know the details about the level and value of Ford's 'technical support' for M-Sport. Without the manufacturer registered for the WRC I don't think it will be possible to homologate upgrades for their WRCar. This will limit any major development on the Fiesta in 2013, same goes for the Mini.

[sollitt]

I think you can presume that the manufacturers registration for homologation purposes is a given.

[AMSS]

Hmmm... then I'm sorry but I don't really get what will happen... what will change for Ford/M-Sport next season? Even less financial support (or even 0) or what? :S


Ford motorcompany(US) will continue its technical support as it has been, the title sponsor Ford WRT comes from Ford Europe, Ford Europe is the one not continuing their sponsorship.
But in actual fact the Ford Europe annual money hasn`t been that big, so with the new title sponsor(which is supposed to be announced latest after Catalunya) actually nothing changes to the worse at least.
As someone earlier mentioned the clear reason for Ford Europe not continuing was seen yesterday with the closing of the factories.
A funny fact is that the amount of money Suzuki gave to monster for their WRC campaign was bigger than what Ford gave to M-sport at the same time.

[RS]

Seems there are several manufacturers that want to be in WRC but don't want to have to pay for it.