Will Cosworth develop a V6 engine?

[zako85]

Let's assume the worst case scenario. Disgruntled Mercedes calls it quits. PURE runs out of investor cash before signing an engine deal. No other new manufacturer builds a V6 engine. If Cosworth does not deliver a V6 engine either, then F1 is left with just two engines, which would be an unusual situation. Ferrari gains an advantage from having the power to deny its engine to major playes (e.g. McLaren). Emboldened Renault charges more for its engines, leaving less money for car development, possibly forcing some teams to leave. I think many would agree that having a "default engine" as a third option would be valuable for Formula 1. The question is how? A company like Cosworth or PURE probably can not swallow the development costs that are necessary to build a competent engine. However, the TV rights income is significant, and a big portion of it is already being dispensed to the teams. A certain amount of this income could be spent on subsidizing the development of a "standard" F1 engine that will always be available to any team at a reasonable fixed fee. Would this be a bad idea?

[AndyL]

Is it possible to even imagine the whole grid running Ferrari engines? After all, they already all run McLaren ECUs.

[CNR]

Cosworth reveals ready to build new F1 V6 engine in 2014 | Latest F1 News | Daily F1 Updates | 2012 Singapore Grand Prix | Latest F1 News | 2012 F1 | Formula 1 Live | 2012 F1 Cars Photo (http://www.formula1onlive.com/2012/09/cosworth-reveals-ready-to-build-new-f1.html)

One of the existing engine makers Cosworth reveals ready to continue the F1 sport beyond 2013 F1 season. It confirmed they are build new F1 V6 engine in 2014 with other top makers Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, and PURE (PURE not confirmed).

[zako85]

That's nice to know. Hopefully, they will get the new engine right this time. I heard that the current V8/V10 line was designed for peak power to come at higher RPM and it has a relatively high fuel consumption. Still, the current V8 wasn't too bad when powering Barrichello's and Hulkenberg's cars in 2010 and Williams finished 6th that year, the teams best championship result since 2007.

[Rollo]

Ford's 2.5 L V6 Duratec did go down to as low as 2.1L in the Jaguar X-Type, so that's not to suggest that some variant of the Duratec V6 could conceivably be manufactured at 1.6L.
In theory, because engine designs are all CAD/CAM anyway, they could even take the Ford Cyclone V6 which currently stands at 3.5L and fiddle with that.

My first inkling would be that Cosworth maintain a close association with Ford engines generally, given that they still very much play with Ford Duratec inline-4s but it isn't beyond the company to develop a 1.6L V6 from scratch.

I'm wondering if they might not use their influence and lever the regulators to allow the same engine into other series like the WRC or some such.

[Hawkmoon]

Ferrari and Cosworth are the only engine suppliers that have historically shown any committment to F1. If Cosworth do pack it in then I can see a day when Ferrari are the only engine supplier left.

Renault have bounced into and out of the sport seemingly on a whim. They are currently on their 3rd (or is it 4th?) stint as a team/engine supplier. I don't think F1 can count on them being around in the long term. Mercedes have shown a lot of committment to F1 in the last 15 years, which is good, but how much longer are they going to be happy being beaten by their customers? Both McLaren and Force India beat the works cars in Singapore, which can't be pleasing to Stuttgart. My bet is that they will pull out as a works team in the next couple of years. Every other manufacturer, except Ferrari, has pulled out of the sport - Renault, Toyota, BMW and Honda - all gone. Will Mercedes be happy going back to being 'just' and engine supplier (like Renault) or will they follow the lead of the others and pull out altogether?

Unless F1 wants to become a Ferrari vs Cosworth or worse, a Ferrari vs Ferrari series they better find some way of attracting engine manufacturers. More open tech regs perhaps? Tech regs that are more relevant to production cars maybe?

[Rollo]

Unless F1 wants to become a Ferrari vs Cosworth or worse, a Ferrari vs Ferrari series they better find some way of attracting engine manufacturers. More open tech regs perhaps? Tech regs that are more relevant to production cars maybe?

Isn't that rather the point of going to 1.6L engines? That's where cars appear to be headed anyway. Personally I would have made it inline-4s and that would have opened up a whole slew of manufacturers. I find it curious that they'd pick a 1.6L V6 when currently no-one in the world builds a 1.6L V6.

[AndyL]

Isn't that rather the point of going to 1.6L engines? That's where cars appear to be headed anyway. Personally I would have made it inline-4s and that would have opened up a whole slew of manufacturers. I find it curious that they'd pick a 1.6L V6 when currently no-one in the world builds a 1.6L V6.

A 1.5l V6 would have had more historical resonance wouldn't it. The 1.6l V6 formula was a bit of a compromise I think, originally the new engine formula was proposed as an i4 which as you say would have had more relevance to road cars.

[N. Jones]

Let's assume the worst case scenario. Disgruntled Mercedes calls it quits. PURE runs out of investor cash before signing an engine deal. No other new manufacturer builds a V6 engine. If Cosworth does not deliver a V6 engine either, then F1 is left with just two engines, which would be an unusual situation. Ferrari gains an advantage from having the power to deny its engine to major playes (e.g. McLaren). Emboldened Renault charges more for its engines, leaving less money for car development, possibly forcing some teams to leave. I think many would agree that having a "default engine" as a third option would be valuable for Formula 1. The question is how? A company like Cosworth or PURE probably can not swallow the development costs that are necessary to build a competent engine. However, the TV rights income is significant, and a big portion of it is already being dispensed to the teams. A certain amount of this income could be spent on subsidizing the development of a "standard" F1 engine that will always be available to any team at a reasonable fixed fee. Would this be a bad idea?

I believe VW is going to come in as an engine supplier by 2015 with an Audi badge. Also, I am hoping that once McLaren lose the Mercedes in 2015 that they will start building their own engine.

Maybe in the next few years BMW and Honda come back? Honda was built on racing so they may get the itch again.

[zako85]

I believe VW is going to come in as an engine supplier by 2015 with an Audi badge. Also, I am hoping that once McLaren lose the Mercedes in 2015 that they will start building their own engine.


VW has been teasing everyone on an off with its F1 interest. As of right now, I believe their position is that they're not interested in F1, with Audi stating last year that F1 is "irrelevant" to them. I am also skeptical that McLaren will build its own engine. The economic benefits are just not there. Designing a formula 1 engine is very expensive. A car manufacturer can afford this because a Formula 1 engine promotes their road car sales. I don't think McLaren can double its road car sales because the car is renamed from "McLaren-Mercedes" into McLaren. Besides, even doubling their road car sales will not make up for the costs of engine design.

[Hawkmoon]

VW has been teasing everyone on an off with its F1 interest. As of right now, I believe their position is that they're not interested in F1, with Audi stating last year that F1 is "irrelevant" to them. I am also skeptical that McLaren will build its own engine. The economic benefits are just not there. Designing a formula 1 engine is very expensive. A car manufacturer can afford this because a Formula 1 engine promotes their road car sales. I don't think McLaren can double its road car sales because the car is renamed from "McLaren-Mercedes" into McLaren. Besides, even doubling their road car sales will not make up for the costs of engine design.

I'd have to agree with this. There is no chance that McLaren will design and build their own engine. Do they even posses the manufacturing capability to produce an engine?

Even if they could do it, why would they? The chances of being immediately competitive are slim and McLaren won't want to be off the pace for a few seasons while they come to grips with competitive F1 engine building.

[AndyL]

I'd have to agree with this. There is no chance that McLaren will design and build their own engine. Do they even posses the manufacturing capability to produce an engine?

Even if they could do it, why would they? The chances of being immediately competitive are slim and McLaren won't want to be off the pace for a few seasons while they come to grips with competitive F1 engine building.

They don't have F1 engine manufacturing facilities, but then neither did Mercedes. They stuck their badge on an Ilmor engine for several years before eventually buying the company. McLaren could take a similar route. It might even be economically viable if they can sign up some smaller teams as engine customers. (Team 13: Prodrive?) So I think they could do it. But why would they is still a good question.

[Rollo]

Who builds the engine for the MP-12C?

[Hawkmoon]

Who builds the engine for the MP-12C?

A company called Ricardo in conjunction with McLaren I believe. If memory serves the engine is based on a Nissan engine.

[AndyL]

A company called Ricardo in conjunction with McLaren I believe. If memory serves the engine is based on a Nissan engine.

The one from the R390 GT car apparently.

[mtname]

The interesting thing is Cosworth supply Mclaren with Heads,Blocks and sumps for the mp-12c also Cosworth's are for sale. There has been much talk on the net about Mclaren & Cosworth becoming one. The timing would be just right for Mclaren's 2015 season?

[zako85]

The interesting thing is Cosworth supply Mclaren with Heads,Blocks and sumps for the mp-12c also Cosworth's are for sale. There has been much talk on the net about Mclaren & Cosworth becoming one. The timing would be just right for Mclaren's 2015 season?

I doubt it. Someone has to fund the engine development costs, which can be substantial for a competitive engine. At least Mercedes and Renault can afford this, because the engine name promotes their brand. Ferrari is different because building their own engines was always part of brand cachet (can you imagine Ferrari with a Cosworth engine). Ferrari can also afford this because they an extra "subsidy" for commercial TV rights and good sponsors. I can see McLaren switching to some other engine if the "lose" their Mercedes engine deal. However, I don't know why would Mercedes not want to provide its engine to a front running team.

[N. Jones]

VW has been teasing everyone on an off with its F1 interest. As of right now, I believe their position is that they're not interested in F1, with Audi stating last year that F1 is "irrelevant" to them. I am also skeptical that McLaren will build its own engine. The economic benefits are just not there. Designing a formula 1 engine is very expensive. A car manufacturer can afford this because a Formula 1 engine promotes their road car sales. I don't think McLaren can double its road car sales because the car is renamed from "McLaren-Mercedes" into McLaren. Besides, even doubling their road car sales will not make up for the costs of engine design.

True. The reason I bring up McLaren building their own engine is an article I read a few years ago that stated Ron Dennis has a dream of McLaren becoming the "British Ferrari" and one day building their own F1 engine. I am just hoping that when Mercedes leaves them in 2015 that becomes a reality. :)

[Jag_Warrior]

As a great fan of Cosworth and getting to speak with some of their engineers when they were supplying CART/CCWS engines, I find the company's current state to be extremely sad and depressing. So many people have left and so much damage has been done to the company's technical and manufacturing capabilities under Kevin Kalkhoven's (horrible) stewardship that I'm not totally believing this is anything more than a fleeting pipe dream by a guy who is trying to hang onto his job.

As a company that once had its hands in almost every major racing series in the world, it's now just a sad shadow if itself. I was looking into buying some Cosworth bits for a WRX engine that I wanted to build and they don't even answer emails anymore. They used to have a technical and sales staff that oversaw the Ebay store and the online outlet. Now, as far as I can tell, they still do technical & engineering collaborations and some light OEM partnering on projects. But they have nothing more than a light presence in racing, other than this pathetic deal with Marussia.

I wish that McLaren would buy the outfit. Somebody, anybody with some money and some vision. The sooner the Kalkhoven era passes into history the better!

[zako85]

Things probably went downhill after Ford disinvested out of Formula 1 in mid-00s, though even under Ford's patronage the results were kind of meager considering that Ford-Cosworth engines' biggest accomplishment within the past 30 years was Schumacher's first title in 1994, and that under questionable circumstances.

I can't see Cosworth existing on its own without a major corporation picking up its pieces, someone along the lines of WAG, Hyundai, or even Ford.

[BDunnell]

I can't see Cosworth existing on its own without a major corporation picking up its pieces, someone along the lines of WAG, Hyundai, or even Ford.

Well, Ford wouldn't have much use for it now. Shame — for some, the two will always be synonymous.

[Jag_Warrior]

Things probably went downhill after Ford disinvested out of Formula 1 in mid-00s, though even under Ford's patronage the results were kind of meager considering that Ford-Cosworth engines' biggest accomplishment within the past 30 years was Schumacher's first title in 1994, and that under questionable circumstances.

True enough about the F1 situation. But as a racing and engineering concern, under Ford, Cosworth was involved in more series and projects than at anytime before or since. I can't remember the exact date (circa 2002-03 or so maybe?) but I was speaking with a Ford-Cosworth Racing engineer and he proudly spoke about how many series and types of racing where they had a heavy presence: F1, CART/CCWS, WRC, NHRA, Moto GP, sports car racing, boat racing and later they even got into NASCAR.

I never had the honor of meeting him, but I *think* that Bruce Wood is still with Cosworth. And he probably sees it very differently than I do, as a complete outside observer with no deep or day-to-day knowledge. I only know how much fun it used to be to chat with someone from Cosworth and hear about all the magnificent and varied things they were doing vs now. Other than F1 (and stumbling into the Marussia paddock area), I don't even know what racing series I could attend and see a Cosworth engineer. But for all I know, maybe their low-on-the-radar engineering projects are more than (financially) making up for their lack of presence in racing and motorsports.

Their motorsports page now looks rather empty and barren, compared to how it used to look. :(
Cosworth Motorsports (http://cosworth.com/sport/motorsports/)