Promising Mid-90s drivers

[rjbetty]

I've been wanting to find out some people's opinions about a few former racers. I always enjoy hearing what anyone has to say and why.

I only started watching F1 around 1997-98 so missed what went before.

I wanted to see what people think about drivers like Karl Wendlinger and Christian Fittipaldi.

Wendlinger did well in an ancient March in 1992 that had only scored 1pt in 1990 and 2 in 1991. He came 4th in Canada.

Joining Sauber in 1993 he seemed to really shine, and was often right up there battling with Senna and others, like at Donington.
For 1994, all I know is he qualified 7th 19th and 10th in those races to rookie Frentzen's 5th, 10th and 7th. He appeared to average maybe 0.5sec off Frentzen on speed.
However he did finish 6th in Brazil and 4th on that day at Imola, 3 places ahead of Frentzen. Does anyone know how he managed to get that 4th? Was it under the safety car, or was he just quicker than Frentzen in race-trim full stop?

How good was Wendlinger? Would you rate him ahead of say Mika Salo, Olivier Panis, Johnny Herbert, Martin Brundle or Mark Blundell?

Also, I've been really wanting to know for a long time just how Fittipaldi managed to finish 6th in Canada that year, in a race where both Williams, Ferraris, Benettons and Barrichello finished. It looks like a very impressive result indeed, and it was a shame he was disqualified. how did he jump to 6th though? Was he also helped by the safety car?

I want to know what people think of Fittipaldi. He seemed to be quite a bit off the pace in qualifying compared to Morbidelli, who outqualified him 10-6. However, while Morbidelli was erratic only finishing about 3 races and scoring as many points, Christian Scored 2 4th places and seemed to be the better racer. I hear that when Christian and Morbidelli lined up 6th and 7th on the grid at Monte-Carlo, Morbidelli crashed with Martini at turn 1 and Christian was able to benefit from Hill and Hakkinen's collision to run 4th, but he hounded the Ferraris for a large part of the race. It looks like he was faster and would have been on for a big result if he hadn't retired.

Fittipaldi was less eperienced than Morbidelli though so maybe he would have closed the gap in qual in later years.

Please, I am eager to hear what others think. :)

[D-Type]

What information, other than the bare statistical record, do you have access to? Magazine race reports (contemporary and seasonal summaries), yearbooks (Autocourse etc), internet race reports, videos, ...

[Robinho]

Wendlinger was a very good driver, but IIRC he suffered a nasty crash at Monaco shortly after Senna and Ratzenburger were killed at Imola. I think he was in a coma for a short while, and was not quite the same driver when he came back, although he was still competitive

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[rjbetty]

Hi guys I don't have much information other than Wikipedia. It's just been bugging me for a while how Fittipaldi managed to come 6th amongst Williams, Ferraris and Benettons in that race. All I know is he got disqualified.

Oh yeah it was really sad for Wendlinger in 1995 :(
A lot of people think Massa wasn't the same after his crash, though he himself has said he is. But even if so, as bad as it is, it's nowhere near Wendlinger's situation. Instead of tenths, he was seconds off HHF. I never saw the season but reading about that makes me sad, cos I really like Karl. He seems/ed like a decent guy and not a moron like many drivers. I think he was talented and could have had a solid career with podiums.

I remember reading that Karl was a bit upset about being dropped by Sauber in 1995, saying that the team expected miracles from him and they didn't understand he needed a lot more recovering to do. That was really sad to read. :(
Yet today as far as I know he speaks highly of his time at Sauber and doesn't seem bitter, which is really impressive. I confess I might have found it hard not to be in his situation. But the main thing of course is that he is alive and well today :) , and still racing strong enough even though I still think his ability could have been even better without the crash.

[inimitablestoo]

In terms of Fittipaldi and that Footwork, it was a typical "Arrows" sort of car - uncomplicated, built around a simple but quick engine (the Ford HB) and able to race pretty competitively in the early part of the season. Unfortunately it was one of a number of cars whose competitiveness was sapped by that season's mid-year rule changes, and Arrows (Footwork weren't paying the money by '94, but for various reasons the name had to stay) didn't have the funds to keep it developed to its peak. A shame, as it could have been an even bigger achiever with its early '94 performance coupled to its late '94 reliability.

As for Christian himself, he had a reputation from his first two years with Minardi of being incredibly sensitive in terms of handling his tyres, and being able to make them last, which got the '93 Minardi into a couple of unlikely points finishes (admittedly helped by many retirements in Kyalami) but which was disguised a bit when refuelling came in in '94.

[rjbetty]

In terms of Fittipaldi and that Footwork, it was a typical "Arrows" sort of car - uncomplicated, built around a simple but quick engine (the Ford HB) and able to race pretty competitively in the early part of the season. Unfortunately it was one of a number of cars whose competitiveness was sapped by that season's mid-year rule changes, and Arrows (Footwork weren't paying the money by '94, but for various reasons the name had to stay) didn't have the funds to keep it developed to its peak. A shame, as it could have been an even bigger achiever with its early '94 performance coupled to its late '94 reliability.

As for Christian himself, he had a reputation from his first two years with Minardi of being incredibly sensitive in terms of handling his tyres, and being able to make them last, which got the '93 Minardi into a couple of unlikely points finishes (admittedly helped by many retirements in Kyalami) but which was disguised a bit when refuelling came in in '94.

Thank you, this was very interesting to read. I didn't know that about Fittipaldi with his tyres.

I so agree with you about Arrows early season performance. They seemed to start very strongly but it all faded. I didn't watch '94 but I know a lot about it (because of Grand Prix 2 and the manual haha). Morbidelli qualifying 6th in Brazil was sensational, along with 7th at Monaco and 8th on the grid at Jerez. Christian Also started 9th at Aida and 6th at Monaco, looking very good for 2nd place in the race even!

[gm99]

He seems/ed like a decent guy and not a moron like many drivers. I think he was talented and could have had a solid career with podiums.


I think you're spot on with your impression of Karl. I have had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, mostly at charity karting events, and he is the nicest fellow you could possibly meet, never refusing an autograph or a picture. He's especially good with kids.

Talent-wise, I think he was at least at Frentzen's level and without the accident, would probably have achieved similiar levels of success, some podiums and maybe - given the right car - a win or two. He probably lacked the killer instinct of a Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton, so I doubt he would have been a championship contender. Although of course it is worth noting that in German F3 in 1989, he beat both his Mercedes team-mates Frentzen and M. Schumacher to the title.

[rjbetty]

I think you're spot on with your impression of Karl. I have had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, mostly at charity karting events, and he is the nicest fellow you could possibly meet, never refusing an autograph or a picture. He's especially good with kids.

Talent-wise, I think he was at least at Frentzen's level and without the accident, would probably have achieved similiar levels of success, some podiums and maybe - given the right car - a win or two. He probably lacked the killer instinct of a Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton, so I doubt he would have been a championship contender. Although of course it is worth noting that in German F3 in 1989, he beat both his Mercedes team-mates Frentzen and M. Schumacher to the title.

He does seem like a really cool guy. Wow it would have been fantastic if he'd gone on to be as good as you say. I'd certainly like to believe that, but the issue I have is that in the first 3 races of '94 he was outqualified by Frentzen, who was a rookie. So unless there were any extenuating circumstances, I'm afraid the impression I get is that Frentzen had to be the better driver...

[FAL]

I'm with Don Capps on what is appropriate to a history forum.

[rjbetty]

But this is history being discussed here. :)

[wedge]

Ignorantly I've always regarded Christian Fittipaldi as a great F1 reject ie. he was average at best.

Nor did he convince me much in CART. I'd always thought he should have gotten more out his car considering he drove for Newman Haas for much of time.

[rjbetty]

But I think he compared well with Michael Andretti, especially in 1999-2000. He was a race winner and one of the best qualifiers. But then I wonder if Andretti was getting slow due to not being as young as he used to be. Michael always easily beat him in the points.

It seemed the other way round in F1 as Christian always seemed to get good points finishes considering his qualifying. He was also an F3000 champion.

[Don Capps]

But this is history being discussed here. :)

It is an expression of opinion and perceptions, which is not the same as history.

[wedge]

But I think he compared well with Michael Andretti, especially in 1999-2000. He was a race winner and one of the best qualifiers. But then I wonder if Andretti was getting slow due to not being as young as he used to be. Michael always easily beat him in the points.

It seemed the other way round in F1 as Christian always seemed to get good points finishes considering his qualifying. He was also an F3000 champion.

He was a bit of a 1990's Piquet Jr and F3000 champion wasn't a great accolade.

Newman Haas were like McLaren and Penske. They exist to win and Christian lacked a killer instinct when Michael took all the plaudits.


It is an expression of opinion and perceptions, which is not the same as history.

Examining driver history is generally subjective.

[Don Capps]

Examining driver history is generally subjective.

Actually, examining a driver's record or past -- history -- can be quite objective. Discussing that record and/or the driver, however, is generally quite subjective.

[D-Type]

Come on folks! let's not get into semantic arguments!

[Don Capps]

Come on folks! let's not get into semantic arguments!

What argument?

[Bruce D]

It's always hard to judge how good someone was, particularly in Formula 1 because of how much certain situations make a difference, be it engines, tyres, car, etc. Brundle and Herbert can both point at injuries and not getting the breaks as a lack of success. People handle situations better than others, an example being the Schumacher / Rosberg combination at Mercedes now. Before Rosberg was beating Schumacher, now it's the other way around because of whatever situation that car on those tyres is doing.

As for Wendgliner, yes I think he was good, did seem to make a few mistakes from time to time and the accident definately made a difference to him. The late Sid Watkins used to always say it took 2 years to recover from a brain injury. Karl was great in GT cars later.

As for Fittipaldi, well I think he was disappointing and never got the best out of his cars. Certainly in Indycars / CART he failed to deliver for sure. Honestly there has only been one great Fittipaldi and it was Emerson.

I would suggest, if you have the cash, buying the Motorsport Magazine archive DVDs as they are good race reports and let you in on the behind the scenes stuff. The Autocourse annuals are always great as well. Autocourse themselves are starting to make DVD archives of them so that's worth getting. I'm really into the history of F1 and I recently managed to get hold of the 1986 to 1989 Autocourse books and I'm learning stuff that I never knew! One particularly amusing point was that the March's designed in 1988 by a certain Adrian Newey were the quickest things through fast corners but struggled with low speed corner understeer - exactly the same complaint was leveled at the 2009/10 Red Bull!

[steveaki13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxwH7kTwwoU

Rjbetty

I have a copy of the 1994 race and might watch it again thanks to your interest in Fittipaldi's race.

I also found this copy on You Tube. Have a look for yourself and watch christian have a great race.

Its fun if you have a free evening to watch some of these old races and see it first hand.

Albeit coverage back then was not very widespread. No graphics of further down the field and often dont see much of tailenders but there you go

[rjbetty]

Oh that is fantastic! Thank you aki13!

[rjbetty]

Oh that is fantastic! Thank you aki13!