Top Drivers from 2000 Onwards

[rjbetty]

I was going to post in the top drivers of all time thread, but I feel totally unqualified!

It would be much easier, and much less controversial(?) to post the top drivers since lets say 2000 (seems as good a time as any).

Having watched F1 since just before that year and being able to remember it all clearly (Jenson's debut year and those STUNNING Orange Arrows), I feel more confident at posting the best drivers from 2000-2012.

(I wonder if there should be a stipulation that a driver needs to have completed a certain amount of Grands Prix to qualify in this... Ok, driver must have competed in 3 seaons - fair?)

Ok here goes

1.Fernando Alonso - Ferrari say he's better than Schumi. I say he's better than Schumi too. Is, incredibly, more consistent in races, and throughout a season.
2.Michael Schumacher - 2006 showed to me he isn't up with Fernando. Makes too many mistakes, but he helped build Ferrari from a joke to major world power.
3.Sebastian Vettel - Has achieved an amazing amount in his 25 years, but needs to grow some more first before being ranked higher.
4.Lewis Hamilton - Could be top of this list if that celebrity rubbish didn't take his focus away. Thinks he's Mr Cool which annoys me. The fastest of all, probably.
5.Mika Hakkinen - Overrated methinks. NOT as fast as Schumacher over a season. Amazed that people don't realise McLaren had a 0.2sec faster car in 2000!!
6.Kimi Raikkonen - Completely overrated. He's superbly fast though, buuut so are others above him. Actually very consistent with excellent racecraft.
7.Jenson Button - When he's good he's great, and can top anyone above him here on his day. His failure in poor cars shows he's no Alonso though.
8.Robert Kubica - Often amazing. Feared by Alonso and Hamilton. But outqualified by Heidfeld x6 in 08 and Petrov x2 in 10. Would that have happened to Schumacher?
9.Mark Webber - Has always been underrated. Very fast. Has grown and learned to race and be more consistent. Can beat the guys above on his day too.
10.Juan-Pablo Montoya - The most overrated driver going - I'm talking about you Nigel Roebuck!! Could be brilliant in qual though. NOT in the class of the top 5 for me.
11.Rubens Barrichello - Was held back at Ferrari. Always suffered after unrepresentative 1995. Bit rubbish in 2006 & early '09 though...
12.Jarno Trulli - Up here for his sheer ability over one lap. On that alone, would be in the top 6. On the rest of it, he's down here.
13.Nico Rosberg -I'd say quicker than Barrichello. His races in recent times lack punch though.
14.Felipe Massa - Has always worked at it, and kept improving. Beat Villeneuve and a struggling Kimi.
15.Ralf Schumacher - Could be very good. Showed Montoya up plenty of times. Underrated cos he's a horrible spoilt person.
16.Heikki Kovalainen - Beat Fisichella and Trulli. Underrated.
17.Giancarlo Fisichella - People wonder why he's this high? Spa 01+09? Mid 2002. In 2004 trounced Massa, EDGED by him on pure pace in Malaysia and Brazil ONLY.
18.David Coulthard - Claimed he could do as well as Hamilton in a McLaren in 07. You had NINE years in a McLaren DC, and never showed anything like that!
19.Nick Heidfeld - Amazing ability to get exactly what the car is capable of. But no more.
20.Jacques Villeneuve - Even in his impressive 2006 season only matched Heidfeld for pace, and was floored by him on points. Not all luck Jacques, Heidfeld knows racing.

I'll keep it at 20 for now. I'm sure I've left someone out... :confused:

[D-Type]

I'm a little uncomfortable with 'rating' drivers who are still competing. At any time someone might do a "Singapore 2008", "Suzuka 1990" or similar and totally change how they deserve to be viewed. A driver's whole career should be considered, not just his most recent couple of seasons, which is very difficult when he is still racing. In the fullness of time, the true reason for an apparently poor performance tends to emerge. For example it was almost 50 years before the extent of Mike Hawthorn's kidney problems became common knowledge and some of his "off-form" days were explained. A more recent example is Mark Webber's broken shoulder.

[FAL]

I don't count 2000 (or quite a few years before that) as "History"!

[driveace]

Your talking Racing Drivers here only ?As the king of rallying must be Loeb,as he is the master of rally,s these last few years

[rjbetty]

Your talking Racing Drivers here only ?As the king of rallying must be Loeb,as he is the master of rally,s these last few years

Hey yeah lets have drivers from other series too! But 2000 IS history. :p

[Don Capps]

But 2000 IS history. :p

Only to those who know little of history....

[BDunnell]

Only to those who know little of history....

Would you, or anyone else, care then to suggest a cut-off date for what constitutes 'history'?

[Mark]

It's not current racing therefore it's history for the purposes of this forum.

[F1boat]

Good thread. I will make the list based on the performance of the drivers from year 2000.

1 M Schumacher
The undisputed (for me) master of the sport. When he was in his peak, he was untouchable and dominating. One of the people who made Ferrari almost invincible.
2 F Alonso
Excellent and very consistent driver.
3 S Vettel
Great, extremely talented and quick. I believe that he might be better than Alonso, but drove fewer years than him, so I give him 3rd.
4. K Raikkonen
Extremely fast and talented. His 2005 season was spectacular and I love the way he won that elusive championship in 2007.
5. L Hamilton
I think that he was lucky to start his career with McLaren, but can't deny his talent and speed.
6. J Button
Very smart and talented driver. Maybe his championship title is my favorite since 2000.
7. J Montoya
Very, very talented, although very, very wild. Some of his victories were spectacular.
8 R Barrichello
He LOVED to whine, but wasn't a bad driver at al.
9 F Massa
Between 2006 and 2008 he was one of the fastest F1 drivers. I'm still sad about that lost 2008 championship.
10 M Webber
Very good driver, i think better than sometimes people realize.

[wedge]

JPM - no contest.

Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand Am

[rjbetty]

JPM - no contest.

Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand Am

He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...

This is a fuller list. Is it any near accurate...?

1.Alonso
2.M.Schumacher
3.Vettel
4.Hakkinen
5.Hamilton
6.Raikkonen
7.Kubica
8.Button
9.Trulli
10.Webber
11.Montoya
12.Rosberg
13.Barrichello
14.Kovalainen
15.R.Schumacher
16.Massa
17.Fisichella
18.Villeneuve
19.Coulthard
20.Heidfeld
21.Sutil
22.Davidson
23.Glock
24.Frentzen
25.Irvine
26.Kobayashi
27.Sato
28.Alguersuari
29.Klien
30.Buemi
31.Panis
32.Wurz
33.Alesi
34.de la Rosa
35.Salo
36.Piquet
37.Liuzzi
38.Nakajima
39.Herbert
40.Pizzonia
41.da Matta
42.Verstappen
43.Bernoldi
44.McNish
45.Zonta
46.Bourdais
47.Wilson
48.Pantano
49.Speed
50.Burti
51.Enge
52.Montagny
53.Firman
54.Albers
55.Bruni
56.Diniz
57.Monteiro
58.Karthikeyan
59.Freisacher
60.Kiesa
61.Gené
62.Badoer
63.Winkelhock
64.Yamamoto
65.Marques
66.Yoong
67.Mazzacane
68.Ide
69.Baumgartner

[rjbetty]

Sorry for the double post. I want to add explanations and ran out of time (30 mins).


JPM - no contest.


Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand Am


He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...


This is a fuller list. Is it any near accurate...?


1.Alonso - Ferrari say he's better than the guy below him
2.M.Schumacher - Too many mistakes though I think he has (had) a little more speed than Alonso
3.Vettel - Win (again) in a car that shouldn't and lose graciously, and you might get higher.
4.Hakkinen - I'm sick of people saying he's as good as Schumacher, when he just pipped MS to titles in a rocketship. Ferrari was NOT equal to McLaren in 2000. Coulthard was NOT 0.2sec quicker than Rubens Barrichello!
5.Hamilton - would Hamilton have done what Mika did in '98?
6.Raikkonen - I wish he would team up with Alonso. Too many people for my liking think he's the best in the world...
7.Kubica - 2010 best season, yet outqualified by Petrov x2. Would Michael in his prime have let that happen?
8.Button - Going off the boil when the car does is not a mark of a great.
9.Trulli - Underrated. His RAW talent is as good as anyone above him I think. Monaco qual 2004 - over 0.4sec quicker than Alonso.
10.Webber - Always felt he was underrated.
11.Montoya - Always felt he was overrated. Couldn't handle being beaten by Kimi. He would be better than the others above? Nope.
12.Rosberg - Schu has been too far ahead in too many races.
13.Barrichello - Underrated cos he ISN'T as good as Michael. People fail to realise not many drivers are. Always suffered after '95 perception against Irvine. My sister (an ardent Eddie fan) to this day brings up the 12-5 1995 qualifying stat against Rubens, as proof that Irvine is superior. Amazingly, many people believe this!!!
14.Kovalainen - Underrated for same reason as Rubens.
15.R.Schumacher - If recent F1 fans think Vettel is a brat...
16.Massa - Great at OPTIMISING his lot. Shone in '06-08, but looked less brilliant as more top drivers came through, revealing his true natural level.
17.Fisichella - Fisi will always be my all-time favourite. ALONSO IS BETTER THAN HIM - I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. Still stuffed in '05 by Flav though. I'm convinced and have my reasons. I know about the constructors and all those arguments. I knew before that season.
18.Villeneuve - Please don't tell me he's better than Fisi! Beaten by Alonso and Massa much more than Fisi was. Heidfeld > JV too.
19.Coulthard - 9 seasons in race/title winning cars. Unlucky my @$$.
20.Heidfeld - Amazing to think now he used to be the next best thing (just before Alonso, Kimi and co came along). Has since been underrated but it's his own fault he was so dog slow at Renault in 2011.
21.Sutil - The 2005 gap to Hamilton was fairly representative I think.
22.Davidson - I'm taking his word for it that he's good as he thinks he is!
23.Glock - Podiums in a Toyota and comparison to Trulli more favourable than HHF I think
24.Frentzen - ahead of Irvine by dint of more natural talent.
25.Irvine - just kept getting better and better. Monza 2002 was brilliant. Pushed out of F1 way too early.
26.Kobayashi - overrated. We all like a spectacular driver but why do people think thats' worth about 0.5sec?
27.Sato - There's a difference between being brave and just being a moron.
28.Alguersuari - Poor quali, but excellent racecraft for his age. An old head on young shoulders.
29.Klien - Harsh Red Bull young driver treatment is nothing new...
30.Buemi - Ahead of Panis really? I'm going on his thrashing of Bourdais
31.Panis - Very good driver. Respect.
32.Wurz - Made a huge impact but soon got shown up by Fisi, though his car and treatment were bad.
33.Alesi - overrated much? His talent was much higher than his application. Beaten way too much by UNgreat team-mates.
34.de la Rosa - Why do people say he didn't shine much at Arrows? Where WERE you in 2000? Never FINISHED ahead of Irvine...!
35.Salo - Overrated. More arrogance than talent. What did Toyota see in him? Outperformed IRVINE x2 in Ferrari = Big deal
36.Piquet - The less said the better.
37.Liuzzi - Italy's next world champion just seemed a bit lazy to me. 1 or 2 decent drives a season not good enough. Cost Force India 6th in constructors in 2010.
38.Nakajima - Ahead of Herbert, but was closer to Rosberg than Herbert was to the likes of Irvine.
39.Herbert - I like him, but boy the most overrated driver of all! Consistently miles off teammates. But then what was Monza '94 about. How DID that happen?
40.Pizzonia - Not quite up there with Piquet but...
41.da Matta - Attitude problem meant he wasn't missed.
42.Verstappen - One of my all time favourites. Combative, brilliant, rainmaster, dog slow *sighs*
43.Bernoldi - Underrated. Outqualified Verstappen. Lacked confidence. His talent was better than that.
44.McNish - Moaned a lot I thought. I'm sorry mate, comparing worse to Salo than Diniz did is not a sign of greatness.
45.Zonta - Also knew how to whine like a puppy. Massive reputation (future at McLaren it looked like!) but slow.
46.Bourdais - Worse attitude than da Matta. One of my favourite drivers, but not any more. Your own fault Seb.
47.Wilson - Overrated as better than Webber by British press. I bought it. A good driver though.
48.Pantano - Back in 2000, McLaren, Ferrari and Renault fought over his long-term services. Then Button, Raikkonen, Alonso and the rest came along.
49.Speed - didn't see much of that from him.
50.Burti - Brilliantly lost the British F3 title to Marc Hynes in 1999. Got in at Jaguar as they feared Franchitti would be another Zanardi.
51.Enge - Got better and better in the races during his short stint at Prost in 2001. Yes he did drive in F1!
52.Montagny - So did he! Not very well though. I liked him, but talk about overrated!
53.Firman - another Brit who whined more than did anything special. You would have won Brazil 2003? Get Real!
54.Albers - Johnny I take it back - you are the 2nd most overrated guy here. What is it about drivers with more bad attitude than talent?
55.Bruni - I was a big fan until his quarter baked effort for Minardi, parking healthy cars in attritonal races and all. Minardi deserved better.
56.Diniz - The archetypal underrated driver who was maligned because he brought money. Diniz was one of the most useful drivers in that his purpose was to show up supposedly amazing drivers like Hill and Salo. Eventually got the credit he deserved.
57.Monteiro
58.Karthikeyan - Only in the mega-depth of talent in 2012 does Karthikeyan not look talented. Even then he is a brilliantly professional and safe pair of hands. The most unfairly criticised driver in F1 today. Drives with flair in the wet, as in Brands Hatch in British F3 in 1999. Also in F1.
59.Freisacher
60.Kiesa
61.Gené
62.Badoer - Formula 3000 Champ in 1992. Pace always average +1.6sec over a season and oddly never improved...
63.Winkelhock - I'm just guessing where to put him, ok.
64.Yamamoto - Not as bad as made out to be.
65.Marques
66.Yoong - Lacked confidence. In final 3 races, especially in the race he compared very well with Webber. Has won in A1GP and has talent.
67.Mazzacane - Not that bad actually.
68.Ide - Could have done better. It was a mess really.
69.Baumgartner - No Deletraz. Very good approach and scored a point by being there at the end.

[Don Capps]

It's not current racing therefore it's history for the purposes of this forum.

However, given that it inevitably involves drivers who are currently active in the various series I would suggest otherwise.

As to what might constitute "history" -- as someone asked earlier, it generally takes about 10-15 years to have a reasonable distance from events to begin to form an objective perspective, but it is usually somewhere about 20-25 years for the context, the linkages, the material, the Zeitgeist, and so forth to be adequately both available and understood so as to begin to approach the subject with the proper historical tools -- and "historical thinking" as well. These are not hard and fast parameters, of course, given that "sports history" seems to exist in a parallel universe where last season is ancient history. "Political history" is usually a fellow-traveler with "sports history" given the short attention spans that both possess.

As Gordon Wood correctly reminds us, "Popular memory is not history..." and that would seem to apply in this case.

However, feel free to continue and ignore this contrarian note....

[BDunnell]

However, given that it inevitably involves drivers who are currently active in the various series I would suggest otherwise.

Would you, therefore, not permit any discussion of the Rolling Stones in an historical context, given their ongoing activity?

[00steven]

So does racing in F1 automatically make you better than those in Champ/Indycar? I would say Rubens would disagree...

[Mark]

So does racing in F1 automatically make you better than those in Champ/Indycar? I would say Rubens would disagree...

No; but; F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time. But the two series are not the same so good in one doesn't necessarily translate to good in the other.

And yes, judging history when still close to it is a tricky one, same as 'Song of the year' often ended up being whatever one was No. 1 at that moment rather than a considered view, however this forum isn't a doctoral thesis so anything that isn't 'current', goes.

[00steven]

No; but; F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time. But the two series are not the same so good in one doesn't necessarily translate to good in the other.

And yes, judging history when still close to it is a tricky one, same as 'Song of the year' often ended up being whatever one was No. 1 at that moment rather than a considered view, however this forum isn't a doctoral thesis so anything that isn't 'current', goes.

I agree F1 is the pinnacle, I just think other forms of racing deserve respect. For what it's worth...

1. Alonso
2. Schumacher
3. Vettel
4. Franchitti
5. Bourdais
5. Montoya

[wedge]

He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...

JPM was beat by Ralf because he had the ability all along (and therefore a driver of a high level) as previously Ralf was criticised for being in F1 based on his surname.

Kimi and JPM were near equal.

JPM got it into his head McLaren favoured Kimi eg. 2005 Canadian GP - McLaren should have pitted JPM immediately when the SC came out.

Nor did have a good relationship with Ron - Kimi fell out with Ron and then ironically enough Kimi too fell out with Ferrari and his performance/results suffered.

Re: Vettel - although I regard him highly its hard to put my finger exactly on his greatness. He seems more reliant on car (less so than say Button) nor does he seem to have a drive on par with his first win.

[Don Capps]

F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time.

Sorry, but I cannot help but laugh out loud each and every time I read a statement such this one, regardless of the series being touted.

[rjbetty]

JPM got it into his head McLaren favoured Kimi eg. 2005 Canadian GP - McLaren should have pitted JPM immediately when the SC came out.

Nor did have a good relationship with Ron - Kimi fell out with Ron and then ironically enough Kimi too fell out with Ferrari and his performance/results suffered.

In that case, the same applies to Fisichella at Renault with Flav, but no-one seems to allow him that excuse.

[rjbetty]

Actually I think Fisichella should be ahead of Ralf. He beat him in every way in the Jordan and the fact that he beat Ralf to the Force India drive just goes to show that Fisichella was the better driver in the end. :)

Ralf was beaten by Fisi, would have been beaten by Button if Jenson wasn't such a rookie, beaten by Montoya, beaten by Trulli.

The only team-mates Ralf beat were past it drivers Damon Hill and Alex Zanardi. Oh yeah, and Gené and Pizzonia.

[wedge]

In that case, the same applies to Fisichella at Renault with Flav, but no-one seems to allow him that excuse.

Drivers have their good years and the odd bad year (take Kimi, Hamilton and Alonso) but Fisi was far too inconsistent to the point he was unconvincing #2 driver at Renault.

[wedge]

No; but; F1 is still seen as the pinnacle therefore the best drivers will naturally make their way to F1 much of the time.

As you should know its more complex than that!

The point Im making is that some drivers come to f1 with a lot of money from outside sponsors, in the case of Maldonado, from PDVSA. This money goes to the team. He still gets paid his salary for racing with the team too.

[Garry Walker]

Best drivers from 2000 onwards?
1. Schumacher. Nothing to add
2. Alonso. Very fast, very consistant.
3. Räikkönen. Same as Alonso, but not the politician Alonso is. Which caused his downfall at Ferrari.
4. Hamilton. Fast, but not as consistant as those mentioned before.
5. Button. The opposite of Hamilton




Kimi and JPM were near equal.

Did you watch F1 in 2005 and 2006 by any chance? No?

[steveaki13]

Best drivers from 2000 onwards?
1. Schumacher. Nothing to add
2. Alonso. Very fast, very consistant.
3. Räikkönen. Same as Alonso, but not the politician Alonso is. Which caused his downfall at Ferrari.
4. Hamilton. Fast, but not as consistant as those mentioned before.
5. Button. The opposite of Hamilton


Did you watch F1 in 2005 and 2006 by any chance? No?

Have to agree with you Garry. Watching 2005 especially you really cant say they were equal then. Kimi had potential multiple titles and may still get them, while I never felt JPM was ever quite ready to win a title.

Although Montoya was always great to watch. 2001 he had some brilliant drives, but also some average ones. 2002 alot of poles, but some poor races albeit against a tremendous Ferrari.

2003 he had his only real title charge, the win in Germany was brilliant and dominent.

After that I felt he was quite poor.

[Rollo]

Since 2000 (ie 2001 onwards):

Sebastien Loeb - 9 WRC Championships
Michael Schumacher - 4 Formula One Championships
Sebastian Vettel - 3 Formula One Championships
Fernando Alonso - 2 Formula One Championships
Jimmie Johnson - 5 NASCAR Championships
Tony Stewart - 3 NASCAR Championships
Valentino Rossi - 7 Moto GP Championships
Yvan Muller - 3 WTCC Championships + 1 BTCC Championship
Andy Priaulx - 3 WTCC Championships + 1 ETCC Championship
Jamie Whincup - 4 ATCC Championships

Statistically Loeb and Rossi are far far above anyone else. The first four are sort of obvious. The rest? I dunno.
1. Loeb
2. Rossi
3. Schumacher
4. Vettel

[Rollo]

JPM - no contest.

Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand Am

Number of championships... nil.

If you have been affected by this comment, why not ring the JPM Crisis line on 1800-10-10-10. That's 1800 won nothing, won nothing, won nothing. :D

[wedge]

Number of championships... nil.

If you have been affected by this comment, why not ring the JPM Crisis line on 1800-10-10-10. That's 1800 won nothing, won nothing, won nothing. :D

Lol

Who can compete with his CV?

Schumi was arguably past his prime in the 2000s plus the apex of his success came having the dominant car.

[wedge]

Number of championships... nil.

If you have been affected by this comment, why not ring the JPM Crisis line on 1800-10-10-10. That's 1800 won nothing, won nothing, won nothing. :D

Lol

Who can compete with his CV?

Schumi was arguably past his prime in the 2000s plus the apex of his success came having the dominant car.

[rjbetty]

Number of championships... nil.

If you have been affected by this comment, why not ring the JPM Crisis line on 1800-10-10-10. That's 1800 won nothing, won nothing, won nothing. :D

Haha this comment deserves a prize! If Montoya was so great, why did no-one want him for 2007, and Pat Symonds call him unemployable?

[rjbetty]

Have to agree with you Garry. Watching 2005 especially you really cant say they were equal then. Kimi had potential multiple titles and may still get them, while I never felt JPM was ever quite ready to win a title.

Although Montoya was always great to watch. 2001 he had some brilliant drives, but also some average ones. 2002 alot of poles, but some poor races albeit against a tremendous Ferrari.

2003 he had his only real title charge, the win in Germany was brilliant and dominent.

After that I felt he was quite poor.

Have to agree with that. Many will point to the end of 2005, but Kimi was demotivated by losing the title, and the car was also adapted away from Kimi to Montoya. I think Kimi still had the edge anyway. Whatever, I feel that Bobby Rahal's assertion that Montoya "was the kind of driver that only comes along every two generations" was off the mark to say the least.

He did well against Ralf but people with observent eyes say Kimi displayed a surgical skill in the McLaren compared to Montoya's chuck it in and sort it out approach. I think the first one shows more skill. JPM's supporters point to him being demotivated in 2006 (while conveniently overlooking the same for Kimi at the end of '05), but maybe part of the reason for being demotivated was simply his team-mate being too good for him.

[Garry Walker]

Have to agree with that. Many will point to the end of 2005, but Kimi was demotivated by losing the title, and the car was also adapted away from Kimi to Montoya.
Will point to the end of 2005? what do you mean? Kimi was much faster at the start of 2005, in the middle and also at the end. The only race where Montoya was as fast as Kimi was Brazil. In everywhere else he was slower and often completely destroyed by Kimi.




He did well against Ralf but people with observent eyes say Kimi displayed a surgical skill in the McLaren compared to Montoya's chuck it in and sort it out approach. Well, Ralf did very well against Montoya. He was better than montoya in 2001 and 2002, in 2003 they were equal and in 2004 RAlf was injured for half a year.


I think the first one shows more skill. JPM's supporters point to him being demotivated in 2006 (while conveniently overlooking the same for Kimi at the end of '05), but maybe part of the reason for being demotivated was simply his team-mate being too good for him.
He was not demotivated, he was just stuck with a bad car in 2006 and saw his teammate being so much faster than him. Him being emotionally a 5 year old of course threw a tantrum.

[rjbetty]

Will point to the end of 2005? what do you mean? Kimi was much faster at the start of 2005, in the middle and also at the end. The only race where Montoya was as fast as Kimi was Brazil. In everywhere else he was slower and often completely destroyed by Kimi.

Well sadly, I remember Nigel Roebuck in particular (who was such a Montoya fanboy in a way that makes it look like Horner and Marko hate Vettel) making a big deal in his column about how JPM was quicker in Belgium, Brazil, Turkey and China! Though it was Bobby Rahal who said "I think that Montoya is the kind of driver who only comes along once every two generations", it might as well have been Nige who said it, by the way he quoted it. JPM's many fans hold these views too... :( They also make a big meal out of his injury, suggesting he would have beaten Kimi without it. :mad:


Well, Ralf did very well against Montoya. He was better than Montoya in 2001 and 2002, in 2003 they were equal and in 2004 Ralf was injured for half a year.

Yeah I kinda agree, but Montoya was a rookie in 2001. I think Montoya did do better in 2002: He averaged 1 hundreth slower in qualifying but scored more points and got 7 poles to Ralf's 0 - though Ralf did get the team's only win.

2003 - Have to say Montoya was better overall though Ralf properly showed him up plenty of times.

2004 - Have to say Ralf was pretty equal actually! JPM wasn't a lot faster than Gené and was struggling a little against Pizzonia's pace at Spa and maybe Monza too.

JPM's fans will have you believe he dominated Ralf though. :(



He was not demotivated, he was just stuck with a bad car in 2006 and saw his teammate being so much faster than him. Him being emotionally a 5 year old of course threw a tantrum.

Absolutely agree.

He also spun out of races quite a few times. The excuses his fans make for him in 2006 are beyond belief. If Montoya was so good, he would have been kept on at McLaren. Red Bull didn't want anything to do with him, preferring Webber. Neither did Renault, or Ferrari, who rated Schumacher Kimi and Alonso higher.

I personally think Montoya was the most overrated driver of the 2000s - in reality, I feel he was on a similar level to Felipe Massa - though his reputation was much higher, his performance just wasn't. :)


It was around this time that I had to accept the hard truth that my favourite Fisichella just wasn't the match of Alonso, but I find Montoya's fans are much like the man himself and have little class and are just immature in their arguments. :(

[Garry Walker]

Well sadly, I remember Nigel Roebuck in particular (who was such a Montoya fanboy in a way that makes it look like Horner and Marko hate Vettel) making a big deal in his column about how JPM was quicker in Belgium, Brazil, Turkey and China! Though it was Bobby Rahal who said "I think that Montoya is the kind of driver who only comes along once every two generations", it might as well have been Nige who said it, by the way he quoted it. JPM's many fans hold these views too... :( They also make a big meal out of his injury, suggesting he would have beaten Kimi without it. :mad:

JPM fans are deranged. Montoya was clearly slower at Spa, at Turkey and also at China. At Brazil they were equally fast.



Yeah I kinda agree, but Montoya was a rookie in 2001. I think Montoya did do better in 2002: He averaged 1 hundreth slower in qualifying but scored more points and got 7 poles to Ralf's 0 - though Ralf did get the team's only win.JPM got more poles, but was outqualified if I remember correctly.


2003 - Have to say Montoya was better overall though Ralf properly showed him up plenty of times
We have to remember that at mid season, when Williams was the fastest car, Ralf dominated Montoya. Ralf also was injured in testing at Monza.



JPM's fans will have you believe he dominated Ralf though. :( Montoya fans are one of the most outrageously fanatical (and often dumb) group of fans in F1 ever.

[D-Type]

Come off it!

7 grand prix wins
1 Indianapolis win
1 CART Champoinship

You can't dismiss him out of hand

[Rollo]

Come off it!

7 grand prix wins
1 Indianapolis win
1 CART Champoinship

You can't dismiss him out of hand

I can and will dismiss him out of hand for the purposes of this thread.
The name of this thread is "Top Drivers from 2000 Onwards".

Button, Raikkonen and Hamilton have all won F1 Championships from 2000 onwards but they also didn't make my list. Montoya's CART Champoinship happened in 1999 which is NOT from 2000 onwards.

[D-Type]

Fair point. But some of the abusive criticism in earlier posts is not justifiable

[wedge]

I personally think Montoya was the most overrated driver of the 2000s - in reality, I feel he was on a similar level to Felipe Massa - though his reputation was much higher, his performance just wasn't. :)

Massa beat Kimi so by that logic...

[rjbetty]

Massa beat Kimi so by that logic...

Yeah I was thinking of that, and my conclusion is that I think Massa has performed to a higher level than Montoya reached in F1, if you completely take reputation out of it and just look at what was done.

I do also think Kimi isn't quite THAT good i.e. not equal to Schumacher, Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso, but better than Button, Massa and Webber.

[steveaki13]

I think that Massa did better than Montoya against Raikkonen. Look at 2008 Felipe was fantastic and all but won that title, although I think Kimi wasn't up to his 2005 level which for me was his best season.

Having said that Montoya had the might of Ferrari to fight against in 2002-2003.

Tough call.

[Garry Walker]

Come off it!

7 grand prix wins
1 Indianapolis win
1 CART Champoinship

You can't dismiss him out of hand
I didn't, he was a good driver. Simply, against Kimi he was beaten very clearly and rarely matched him. Nor did he ever really dominate Ralf like his plethora of fanboys would like to believe.



Massa beat Kimi so by that logic...
Did he? I would say overall, Kimi was the better driver, but he lacked ability in one thing that is very important in Ferrari - politics, which hurt him greatly.

[wedge]

Did he? I would say overall, Kimi was the better driver, but he lacked ability in one thing that is very important in Ferrari - politics, which hurt him greatly.

Yes you dummy! :D

In all seriousness it comes down to opinion.

I remember there was a time you thought Kimi was rhe most over rated driver pre-2008.

Kimi was fed up with Ron The Don but still manage to maximise the car in '06 - races in particular.

JPM was a wasted talent who had issues and believed too much in the hype but similar to Kimi and Massa: excelled in the right car/right circumstances.

[Rollo]

Kimi was fed up with Ron The Don but still manage to maximise the car in '06 - races in particular.

JPM was a wasted talent who had issues and believed too much in the hype but similar to Kimi and Massa: excelled in the right car/right circumstances.

If you do a direct comparison of Kimi and JPM (ignoring Kimi's 2007 WDC which instantly makes him better than JPM), Kimi has had two 2nds and two 3rds in F1. JPM has had two 3rds in F1 and a best result of 8th in NASCAR.

Kimi didn't make my list, so there's still no way JPM would.

[wedge]

If you do a direct comparison of Kimi and JPM (ignoring Kimi's 2007 WDC which instantly makes him better than JPM), Kimi has had two 2nds and two 3rds in F1. JPM has had two 3rds in F1 and a best result of 8th in NASCAR.

Kimi didn't make my list, so there's still no way JPM would.

Fair enough.

Statistics have their place but it's not the be all and end all. For instance in 2003 Williams drivers were taking points off each other because Ralf Schumacher was a much stronger team mate to JPM than DC to Kimi.

[Alfa Fan]

That no-one has mentioned Tom Kristensen 3 pages into this thread just illustrates how silly it is.

[Rollo]

That no-one has mentioned Tom Kristensen 3 pages into this thread just illustrates how silly it is.

Is the 24 Hours of Le Mans by itself worth a championship though? 7 of them are included from 2000 onwards but as far as I'm aware, he's only one one championship in that period, the 2001 ALMS.

[Chissy555]

Seb Vettels impression of Kimi is brilliant !, search on YouTube !

[rjbetty]

That no-one has mentioned Tom Kristensen 3 pages into this thread just illustrates how silly it is.

I was just thinking of F1, but you can include anyone else!