Red bulls

[driveace]

What's going on at Red Bull ? From being the most dominant team on the F1grid ,they have in the last two races had a car that could not even make the top ten shoot out .Today two retirements,and has said by team manager the first time in over two years that they have had a DNF .I know they were far faster than any other team over the last two years,but after two cheating investigations,and Vettel saying that what they had been doing with their car,was no big deal,and would make NO difference to their results ,we now see different!

[A FONDO]

I think they just need some better drivers.

[steveaki13]

Nobody dominates forever. Its just a natural cycle where different teams enjoy success.


It is a strange thing about F1. A team may dominate and be a frontrunner for a long time, but things never last forever. Even since I watched F1 it has had so many fazes

Willims 92-97 interjected by Schumi in the Benetton.
Mclaren 98-99
Ferrari 99-04
Renault 05-06
Brawn 09
Red Bull 10-11.

I mean in the early 90s the Williams seemed unstoppable but then came a young German.

Mclaren lapped the field in Oz 98 and everyone thought it could be a onesided championship but Schumacher still battled them all year.

No one could ever see Schumi and Ferrari losing there dominance until Michael retired and yet Alonso and Renault stopped it.

Brawn came from no where and then returned comparatively to nowhere.

Now Red Bull who have seemed so dominant are suddenly upper mid pack.

Thats why F1 is fantastic. Just when you think you no whats coming in F1. F1 decides differently.

[A FONDO]

Thats why F1 is fantastic. Just when you think you no whats coming in F1. F1 decides differently.
Absolutely!

[steveaki13]

Wow just seen I am at 2000 posts.

Do I qualify as one of the regulars now. :D

[steveaki13]

Just one post off topic. Where is everyone these days. Only about 5 of us chatting after the race today. Used to be slightly more activity on here.

Sorry jjust a little rant.

Back on topic.

[donKey jote]

It is a strange thing about F1. A team may dominate and be a frontrunner for a long time, but things never last forever. Even since I watched F1 it has had so many fazes.
Renault's domination was stopped by "rule clarifications"...
Brawn's domination was stopped by rule clarifications...
Red Bullsh' domination has been stopped by rule clarifications.
:)

[edv]

Renault's domination was stopped by "rule clarifications"...
Brawn's domination was stopped by rule clarifications...
Red Bullsh' domination has been stopped by rule clarifications.
:)
Ferrari's domination was extended by "rule clarifications" :)

[donKey jote]

:andrea:

[wedge]

Not good over a single lap.

Can't fault their race pace.

[driveace]

But from Vettel being super confident ,and clever with it too,the one fingers and all that ,they now seem to have egg on their faces !Frustration on the Red Bull pit wall too!

[F1boat]

I think that it is the FIA who stopped them. The new rules seem to be specifically made against the strenghts of the RBR car. But honestly I still enjoy Seb fighting like a lion, making mistakes like a human and still showing his brilliance as a champion, although battling for lower positions. My respect for him won't be diminished if he fails to win the WDC this year :)

[Knock-on]

It's funny how a few 'clarifications' from the FIA as to what is and is not cheating has lead to Red Bull being back on par with everyone else. As for Seb, he'll struggle against Fred and Lewy as we saw.

[kfzmeister]

I still enjoy Seb fighting like a lion, making mistakes like a human and still showing his brilliance as a champion, although battling for lower positions. My respect for him won't be diminished if he fails to win the WDC this year :)

I don't miss his arrogant finger pointing one bit :) It's good for him to get his arse handed to him a little. It builds character.

[tfp]

Nobody dominates forever. Its just a natural cycle where different teams enjoy success.

You havent watched WRC for a while have you :p

I think its good that RBR arent dominating anymore. Me and a friend at work who also follows F1 were talking earlier this year, we often ask "who do you think will win the next race?". The first part of this year, we genuinely had absolutely no idea. If last year I said that Williams would take a race win this year, no one on this board would have believed me.
But this is the fantastic thing that is F1, and I hope it stays this way :)

[rjbetty]

Well Christian Horner seems to have decided who's to blame for his cars' fall from domination:

Horner: Throw everything at it | Planet F1 | Formula One | News, Standings, Results, Features, Video (http://planetf1.com/driver/18227/8069602/Horner-Throw-everything-at-it)

That's the full article. Here are the best bits from Horner:

"DNFs are extremely expensive and it is our first no points scoring race since 2010 - which also happened to be an engine failure that cost us on that day as well."

TRANSLATION: Renault messed it up for us today, just like THEY did in Korea 2010

"Sebastian, with the lap he did in qualifying on Saturday, it was absolutely everything there was," said Horner.
"You only have to look at an audio overlay to see where we haemorrhaged the time"

TRANSLATION: You only have to listen to hear how poor the Renault engine is, and where we haemorrhaged the time.

"In the race Seb was really hanging on and doing a really strong job.
"He managed to hold on to Jenson (Button) early on in the race, but then the Ferrraris were just too quick on the straights for us.
"We were just powerless to defend, but Sebastian did nothing wrong. He drove as hard as he could.

TRANSLATION: He was hanging on to a tow as best as he could. That was our only hope of getting a bit of straightline speed, as the Renault engine was palpably not up to the job.
The Ferraris were just too quick on the straights for us, because they aren't lumped with dodgy Renault engines. We are.
"We were just powerless" = Exactly

"Monza unfortunately exposed our weakness."

I think that speaks for itself. Christian seems to be very sure exactly what the weakness is!



P.S. Rule changes brought Ferrari's domination to an end in 2005.

Also, yeah it is really quiet around here these days... :(

[I am evil Homer]

Maybe they should have used different ratios? Hitting the limiter in top gear isn't all down to the engine. Sure all Renault powered cars seemed less competitive but they did okay at Spa, hardly a slow track.

[F1boat]

You havent watched WRC for a while have you :p


:D

[AndyL]

Well Christian Horner seems to have decided who's to blame for his cars' fall from domination:
<snip>
"In the race Seb was really hanging on and doing a really strong job.
"He managed to hold on to Jenson (Button) early on in the race, but then the Ferrraris were just too quick on the straights for us.
"We were just powerless to defend, but Sebastian did nothing wrong. He drove as hard as he could.

TRANSLATION: He was hanging on to a tow as best as he could. That was our only hope of getting a bit of straightline speed, as the Renault engine was palpably not up to the job.
The Ferraris were just too quick on the straights for us, because they aren't lumped with dodgy Renault engines. We are.
"We were just powerless" = Exactly

I wonder how Horner accounts for the fact that Raikonnen and D'Ambrosio had the fastest speeds through the speed trap, and their Renault engines managed to finish the race too!

[ShiftingGears]

I wonder how Horner accounts for the fact that Raikonnen and D'Ambrosio had the fastest speeds through the speed trap, and their Renault engines managed to finish the race too!

I would very much like to know what the RBR engineers think of that issue.

[F1boat]

The Red Bull is not very good this year, simple as that. They lack straightline speed, they lack qualifying pace, their aero is compromised because of the new rules and still they win three races and so far lead the WCC. It won't last, but is still a mighty effort.

Red Bull is an energy drink sold by Austrian company Red Bull GmbH, created in 1987.

[philipbain]

It has been obvious for the last couple of seasons that the design philosophy of the Red Bull car is about maximising downforce whilst sacrificing top speed. Also mechanical traction is not thier strong suit either (Adrian Newey is an aerodynamicist after all, not a mechanical engineer) so at tracks like Spa and Monza where top speed is key and downforce levels are generally lower the Red Bull car's key weakness is on display for all to see. However, Spa and Monza are exceptions, rather than the rule, I think at the next round we will see Red Bull right up at the sharp end and perhaps see Ferrari chasing McLaren, Red Bull & Lotus as we saw in Hungary, after all, it is said that Singapore is an absolute maxiumum downforce track (on a par with Monaco). The fact that Red Bull are merely competitive rather than dominant isnt reason to think that they are a spent force, its more that as loopholes are closed in the rule book it becomes increasingly difficult to dominate, its as simple as that.

[wedge]

I wonder how Horner accounts for the fact that Raikonnen and D'Ambrosio had the fastest speeds through the speed trap, and their Renault engines managed to finish the race too!


I would very much like to know what the RBR engineers think of that issue.

Top speed isn't everything, despite Renault weaker on power.

Lotus ran low downforce for greater top speed whereas RBR, went for a shorter gearing for greater acceleration off the corners - which they did last year and still won the race.


Slow end-of-straight speeds are not necessarily a defining disadvantage at Monza - so long as you are coming onto those straights faster than the others, as Vettel was last year. It's the speed profile through the entire straight that is much more important than the headline numbers through the speed trap. Kimi Raikkonen for example complained after the race that he was unable to defend because he was slow on the pit straight, yet a look at the speed trap figures from the end of the straight showed the Lotus to be the fastest of all.

What he was referring to was how slow he was onto and into the first part of the straight because his very low-downforce set up had made him slow through the preceding Parabolica. The high end of straight speeds of that set up weren't even overcoming how much time had been lost by entering the straight so much slower. Red Bull opted for the opposite approach, gaining as much time as possible through the turns to get onto the straights quicker. But unlike last year, the Red Bull had no corner speed advantage over the others.

Why Vettel had to pay the penalty | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/8071478/Why-Vettel-had-to-pay-the-penalty)

Magnetti Marelli modified their alternator after Valencia but it seems Newey's uncompromising philosophy is giving the alternator and teams grief.

[wedge]

It has been obvious for the last couple of seasons that the design philosophy of the Red Bull car is about maximising downforce whilst sacrificing top speed. Also mechanical traction is not thier strong suit either (Adrian Newey is an aerodynamicist after all, not a mechanical engineer) so at tracks like Spa and Monza where top speed is key and downforce levels are generally lower the Red Bull car's key weakness is on display for all to see. However, Spa and Monza are exceptions, rather than the rule, I think at the next round we will see Red Bull right up at the sharp end and perhaps see Ferrari chasing McLaren, Red Bull & Lotus as we saw in Hungary, after all, it is said that Singapore is an absolute maxiumum downforce track (on a par with Monaco). The fact that Red Bull are merely competitive rather than dominant isnt reason to think that they are a spent force, its more that as loopholes are closed in the rule book it becomes increasingly difficult to dominate, its as simple as that.

Vettel had competitive race pace in Spa. Arguably the quicker car and perhaps would have won the race had he had qualified higher up the grid.

I don't fully agree that RBR lacks mechanical grip. Equal in race pace in Australia; they won in Monaco and perhaps would have won the Canadian GP if they had gone for 2 stopper.

[Garry Walker]

The Red Bull is not very good this year, simple as that. They lack straightline speed, they lack qualifying pace, their aero is compromised because of the new rules and still they win three races and so far lead the WCC. It won't last, but is still a mighty effort.
Overall, Red Bull has been the best car of the year. Obviously not by as much as last year, but still. Their racepace is awesome.
There is nothing wrong with that car.

Vettel had competitive race pace in Spa. Arguably the quicker car and perhaps would have won the race had he had qualified higher up the grid.

I don't fully agree that RBR lacks mechanical grip. Equal in race pace in Australia; they won in Monaco and perhaps would have won the Canadian GP if they had gone for 2 stopper.Yep.

[kfzmeister]

The Red Bull is not very good this year, simple as that. They lack straightline speed, they lack qualifying pace, their aero is compromised because of the new rules and still they win three races and so far lead the WCC. It won't last, but is still a mighty effort.

Add to that the loss of the engine mapping that worked along with the aero and you're spot on.

[wedge]

Overall, Red Bull has been the best car of the year. Obviously not by as much as last year, but still. Their racepace is awesome.

But not good in quali trim.

Many argue McLaren as the better car and I would agree because it is better over a GP weekend than RBR. Better in quali than RBR and competitive/race winning pace.

To a great extent I disagree that RBR's pace as "awesome". Only in Valencia they were regarded as having "awesome" pace with full exploitation of EBD concept.

But they now don't have that advantage of messing with trick engine maps.

I'd say the RBR's race pace is about 0.3s quicker which is marginal. It will come down to track/quali position, pit strategy, traffic, in and out laps, etc.

[Tazio]

To b@stardize a line from Mark Twain:

The report of their death is greatly exaggerated.

[F1boat]

But not good in quali trim.

Many argue McLaren as the better car and I would agree because it is better over a GP weekend than RBR. Better in quali than RBR and competitive/race winning pace.

To a great extent I disagree that RBR's pace as "awesome". Only in Valencia they were regarded as having "awesome" pace with full exploitation of EBD concept.

But they now don't have that advantage of messing with trick engine maps.

I'd say the RBR's race pace is about 0.3s quicker which is marginal. It will come down to track/quali position, pit strategy, traffic, in and out laps, etc.

I think that McLaren is the fastest car this year, but it took some time for the team to explore their advantage. But they are the best in Saturday and at least equal to Ferrari and Red Bull in Sunday.