2012 Presidential Race

[janvanvurpa]

Good god. You lived in California during the run up to the vote on Prop 13?
If not why the~++%^ do you comment? What compels you to speak about things you in NEAR CERTAINTY you actually know ZERO, ZIP, NIENTE, NADA, NULL, NOTHING about except maybe what you may have glaced at maybe..


Proposition 13 was not a mistake.

.

To readers who give a gawddamn about reality, I lived in Northern California for a year in the mid 70s, and what whassisname failed to think of was...damn its just too rediculous I'll get banned.
The administrators and deadwood in the offices in for example the Alameda County Library System--the day After the vote in utter panic--in the same level as Starters drivel, called all library staff and "laid them off overnight because of Prop 13".

Immediately books filled the return slots and began overflowing and getting stacked outside the doors of libraries..
Of course since there WAS NO REASON to lay off 100% of the staff---there was nobody to haul the books inside--books were lost, stolen , damaged..

It was a MISTAKE because the moron Admin Bureaucrats, being bureaucrats and morons---is that redundant?----didn't THINK that the year's budget ran for another 8 months....

The Propsition was a mistake---a typical one of idiots voting for abstract ideas which only theoretically MIGHT affect them, and the passage was handled in the stupidest way imaginable ...

Still, I wonder what compels people to write stuff they know not grain of sand about?

There must be a name for the syndrome... :rolleyes:

[janvanvurpa]

Words of Joe Biden.... "The middle class has been buried for the last 4 years." Who is he campaigning for ? Does he realize who has been in the office the last 4 years ? ...lol What an idiot. He is as clueless as Obama. Everyday I find it harder to believe anyone would vote for these two.....lol :D


Einstein, what were they buried under? Can you remember back to 07 and 08?
You call him an idiot and call him clueless after what you have posted here?
To know they were idiots and clueless would mean you would not be..
And you've shown that is not the case..

Here's a simple one for you:

What do you say about:
the growing Republican election fraud scandal (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-republicans-voter-fraud-florida-20120927,0,5472858.story) that is tearing across the nation this very moment. Republicans hiring known election fraud coordinators in an attempt to steal the election in how many states now? Here in Colorado. In Florida.

Where else?

Is Romney Ryan involved, and if so, how very deeply?

I hope Willard has some good answers tonight...

[Don Capps]

Proposition 13 was a huge mistake. Period.

The basic, underlying problem with the US education system in general is that it is based and run on a pseudo-business model and not an educational model.

The current Charter School/ School Reform / Education-for-Profit / School Voucher movement(s) is not only misguided, but doing far more harm than any good that could possibly ever result from their hocus pocus nonsense (nice to say bull$hit). That there are factors beyond even the best teachers seems irrelevant to these lunkheads. Like or not, there are many factors/variables outside the school and classroom that affect the educational process, most of which are beyond the control of the classroom teacher. Holding a classroom "accountable" for what she/he cannot control is crazy; that so many teachers do manage to encourage, inspire, believe in, and support their students is a continuing source of both pride and amazement to me. That the current policies tethered to the tyranny of standardized testing is actually a detriment to educational achievement for those needing it most is both an irony and a consequence of seriously flawed thinking. What incentive is there to teach in a school where despite your best efforts success is minimal at best, while someone who should not even be allowed near a classroom gets credit for having students who chose the right parents?

As the former lead at HQDA for Distance Learning (I was part of the team that developed and then implemented the Army Distance Learing Plan (ADLP) that created the Army Digital Library (ADL)), I am quite aware of the pluses and minuses of on-line/distributed learning. However, DL only goes so far in and of itself. Take a look at the Two Sigma Problem that Bloom observed; we also observed the Two Sigma with the combination of a live instructor with DL or CA (computer-assisted) courseware.

There is a tendency to blame the teachers for everything under the sun in education. The glut of administrative personnel is a result of the pseudo-business model under which education operates. This results in the self-licking ice cream cone where more administrators means that they need to supervise/administer more, therefore, teachers find themselves burdened with more and more time spent dealing with the bureaucracy, time that would ordinarily be devoted to tasks related to the actual teaching of students.

One would ask just what sort of students where involved in your online courses: that is, for starters, where did they fall regarding the poverty line or educational level in the household, and so on. This would make the results better understood.

[DanicaFan]

Obama sure knows how to speak out of both sides of his mouth.. Again, shows his lack of leadership and that he has done nothing to improve this country, only worsen it. I ask why ??

Here are his exact words..

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. ...Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that 'the buck stops here'. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

SENATOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, MARCH 2006

This guy kept saying change but what did he do.....nothing! He sure knows how to lie I will give him that. Again I just dont understand how anyone can vote for him. Do you really think he will do things different ? He wont, it will get worse if he was to be re-elected.

[Don Capps]

Obama sure knows how to speak out of both sides of his mouth.. Again, shows his lack of leadership and that he has done nothing to improve this country, only worsen it. I ask why ??

Here are his exact words..

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. ...Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that 'the buck stops here'. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

SENATOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, MARCH 2006

In case you didn't notice, that statement was made regarding a US Government being run by the GOP whose follies and inept leadership led us into the mess that will take years to clean up. The lack of leadership in question was clearly that of Bush II. As for why, that the GOP has done everything possible to prevent the Obama administration from dealing with the issues at hand for its own selfish purposes rather than thinking of the country might be a good place to start....

As for things getting worse, elect Romney and they certainly will get worse: the inmates will then be running the asylum and wreck the place. If Bush II was bad, Romney/Ryan will make that disaster pale by comparison.

[DanicaFan]

Don, you cant deny he spoke these words... and what does he do.... the same exact thing, only worse! He spent more money than any other president. Again, he is a joke...

[Gregor-y]

I wouldn't say Australia was in Malaysia at the behest of the US as much as the UK. For the rest I'd say spot on.

[janvanvurpa]

Proposition 13 was a huge mistake. Period.

The basic, underlying problem with the US education system in general is that it is based and run on a pseudo-business model and not an educational model.

The current Charter School/ School Reform / Education-for-Profit / School Voucher movement(s) is not only misguided, but doing far more harm than any good that could possibly ever result from their hocus pocus nonsense (nice to say bull$hit). That there are factors beyond even the best teachers seems irrelevant to these lunkheads. Like or not, there are many factors/variables outside the school and classroom that affect the educational process, most of which are beyond the control of the classroom teacher. Holding a classroom "accountable" for what she/he cannot control is crazy; that so many teachers do manage to encourage, inspire, believe in, and support their students is a continuing source of both pride and amazement to me. That the current policies tethered to the tyranny of standardized testing is actually a detriment to educational achievement for those needing it most is both an irony and a consequence of seriously flawed thinking. What incentive is there to teach in a school where despite your best efforts success is minimal at best, while someone who should not even be allowed near a classroom gets credit for having students who chose the right parents?

As the former lead at HQDA for Distance Learning (I was part of the team that developed and then implemented the Army Distance Learing Plan (ADLP) that created the Army Digital Library (ADL)), I am quite aware of the pluses and minuses of on-line/distributed learning. However, DL only goes so far in and of itself. Take a look at the Two Sigma Problem that Bloom observed; we also observed the Two Sigma with the combination of a live instructor with DL or CA (computer-assisted) courseware.

There is a tendency to blame the teachers for everything under the sun in education. The glut of administrative personnel is a result of the pseudo-business model under which education operates. This results in the self-licking ice cream cone where more administrators means that they need to supervise/administer more, therefore, teachers find themselves burdened with more and more time spent dealing with the bureaucracy, time that would ordinarily be devoted to tasks related to the actual teaching of students.

One would ask just what sort of students where involved in your online courses: that is, for starters, where did they fall regarding the poverty line or educational level in the household, and so on. This would make the results better understood.

Excellent post, I especially like the reference to the Two Sigma Problem...too bad its wasted on "the usual suspects" (imagine what it would be like if the actually read the things we refer to rather than instantly responding with contrary non sequitors "Obamas spent more than any other President"---in a way it's a demonstration of the problems teacher have in school, iddinit? Regardless of anything anybody writes or refers to, it is parried and a unrelated thing is blurted out....)

Thanks again.
I have more reading to do.
For anybody interested in a brief overview there's this:
Bloom's 2 Sigma Problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_Sigma_Problem)

[Don Capps]

Don, you cant deny he spoke these words... and what does he do.... the same exact thing, only worse! He spent more money than any other president. Again, he is a joke...

And your point? This is simply more of the usual mindless partisan babble to ignore rather a reply. Keep trying and better luck next time.

[Starter]

The current Charter School/ School Reform / Education-for-Profit / School Voucher movement(s) is not only misguided, but doing far more harm than any good that could possibly ever result from their hocus pocus nonsense (nice to say bull$hit). That there are factors beyond even the best teachers seems irrelevant to these lunkheads. Like or not, there are many factors/variables outside the school and classroom that affect the educational process, most of which are beyond the control of the classroom teacher. Holding a classroom "accountable" for what she/he cannot control is crazy; that so many teachers do manage to encourage, inspire, believe in, and support their students is a continuing source of both pride and amazement to me.
Charter schools, etc. are not misguided. They are valid alternative models intended to correct some of the ills of the educational system. Many are very successful at what they do. That is not to say that there are not some which are ill thought out; ineffective; or scams.

That the current policies tethered to the tyranny of standardized testing is actually a detriment to educational achievement for those needing it most is both an irony and a consequence of seriously flawed thinking.
How then would you evaluate the success of the process? You can't wait until students have graduated and worked for a while to see if they learned anything.

What incentive is there to teach in a school where despite your best efforts success is minimal at best, while someone who should not even be allowed near a classroom gets credit for having students who chose the right parents?
Success is relative. The fallacy is that all kids are capabile of mastering everything. People are NOT created equal. Some are smarter, in different ways; some have manual skills, some can run faster; some have better memory and some every possible combination of these traits.


As the former lead at HQDA for Distance Learning (I was part of the team that developed and then implemented the Army Distance Learing Plan (ADLP) that created the Army Digital Library (ADL)), I am quite aware of the pluses and minuses of on-line/distributed learning. However, DL only goes so far in and of itself. Take a look at the Two Sigma Problem that Bloom observed; we also observed the Two Sigma with the combination of a live instructor with DL or CA (computer-assisted) courseware.
Sorry, not familiar with Two Sigma and don't have time to research right now.


There is a tendency to blame the teachers for everything under the sun in education. The glut of administrative personnel is a result of the pseudo-business model under which education operates. This results in the self-licking ice cream cone where more administrators means that they need to supervise/administer more, therefore, teachers find themselves burdened with more and more time spent dealing with the bureaucracy, time that would ordinarily be devoted to tasks related to the actual teaching of students.
My point exactly. Education money spent in the very wrong places.


One would ask just what sort of students where involved in your online courses: that is, for starters, where did they fall regarding the poverty line or educational level in the household, and so on. This would make the results better understood.
K-12. The model was as a charter school, open to all in the states served. No requirement to participate other than a desire to sign up. Students from all backgrounds participated. The company is Connections Education (formerly Connections Academy - which is now a division of CE) and has now expanded to other arenas of education as well. You can check it out on line if you wish and have a few minutes. I left about a year ago - retired.

[DanicaFan]

And your point? This is simply more of the usual mindless partisan babble to ignore rather a reply. Keep trying and better luck next time.


Nope, nothing to try. It's the truth. Sorry but you cant hide from the facts. It's the truth. He doing exactly what he spoke against for years but only doing it even worse.

[Captain VXR]

And how will the defenders of the 1% change life for the middle and working classes for the better, DanicaFan? By cutting their healthcare? Being opposed to teaching critical thinking skills in school? By fighting medical marijuana 'tooth and nail', despite over 70% of Americans being in favour or medical marijuana, and 50% wanting it legalised for all uses? (I'm with Johnson and Stein on the war on drugs, Obama's current war on drugs policies are amongst the biggest ways in which he has disappointed me.) How about gay rights, or do gay marriages lead to COMMUNISM, despite gay marriages never being allowed in Eastern Europe/USSR before 1989, North Korea, China etc etc. Maybe less regulation of the banksters, and less taxes on their Swiss/Cayman Island headed wages?

Perhaps the USA should continue rimming Israel, never ever criticising its treatment of the Palestinians? (Again, something Obama has disappointed me with, however still not as bad as Romney, fyi I support Israel's right to exist, as well as Palestine's, so don't try to smear me as some kind of anti-semitic Hamas sympathiser.) Perhaps people who have grown up and spent most of their lives in the USA should be deported to Mexico despite them having no memory of the place and feeling American, attending school/being in a job etc etc? Perhaps more private prisons should be built to house more small time offenders and destroy their prospects for life?

[Captain VXR]

Elements of the right wing create mountains out of molehills, or sometimes even flat land. (http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/drudge-and-tucker-carlson-arent-only-clowns-circus-8-ridiculous-right-wing?paging=off)

[Don Capps]

Nope, nothing to try. It's the truth. Sorry but you cant hide from the facts. It's the truth. He doing exactly what he spoke against for years but only doing it even worse.

As usual, not good enough, but keep trying. With any luck, you will eventually get the idea as to how to better express your thoughts -- at which time I will be happy to acknowledge such a feat. You can do it, I know that you are fully capable of it.

Speaking of hiding from the facts, why is Romney (and the GOP for that matter) having so many problems winning people over to his side? Maybe all the flip-flopping and double-talk, being for any number of things before he was against them could be a factor? The ability to change one's mind when presented with new facts and/or interpretations is an admirable quality, but to do so purely for political reasons is to lack the courage of one's convictions. Before Romney slid over to the Right to embrace no end of ideas that fall short of making sense he was actually a much better candidate than what we are now presented with at the moment. Had Romney the courage of his -- moderate -- convictions and not become a prisoner of the current GOP ideology, I doubt that this election would even be close. Not that I could ever vote for him, of course, but at least you could anticipate him not being a menace to society which most of what he (actually, the GOP) espouses and says he will do were he to win would make him.

It was interesting to note how comfortable and at ease Romney was with his fellow Plutocrats when he made his "47%" speech as compared to how awkward he is around hoi polloi. Just an observation that others have pointed out to me.

[BDunnell]

How then would you evaluate the success of the process? You can't wait until students have graduated and worked for a while to see if they learned anything.

I believe education league tables and the like to have been an utterly pernicious development.

[janvanvurpa]

I believe education league tables and the like to have been an utterly pernicious development.

The private, for profit and "on line" Kidergarten to 12th Grade (known on these shores as K-12) is just one more thing to socialise the cost, and privatise the profits..
The usual scam is to "embed' these corporations "advisers" who are essentially lobbyists, to convince legislatures and school districs they need to pour taxpayer dollars into their hands.

2 seconds hunt and peck on the trusty ol' keyboard finds the company mentioned is a seemingly scammy deal:
For-Profit Online Charter Scandal « Diane Ravitch's blog (http://dianeravitch.net/2012/09/02/for-profit-online-charter-scandal/)

Maine’s State Commissioner of Education Stephen Bowen went to San Francisco to hear Jeb Bush tout the glories of for-profit online charter schools. Jeb Bush’s foundation paid for the trip. The commissioner met with Jeb’s chief education aide, Patricia Levesque, whose company lobbies for the online corporations. She promised help.

This is what the Maine Sunday Telegram found after getting access to public records of the correspondence (http://www.pressherald.com/news/virtual-schools-in-maine_2012-09-02.html):
Bowen was preparing an aggressive reform drive on initiatives intended to dramatically expand and deregulate online education in Maine, but he felt overwhelmed.
“I have no ‘political’ staff who I can work with to move this stuff through the process,” he emailed her from his office.
Levesque replied not to worry; her staff in Florida would be happy to suggest policies, write laws and gubernatorial decrees, and develop strategies to ensure they were implemented.
“When you suggested there might be a way for us to get some policy help, it was all I could do not to jump for joy,” Bowen wrote Levesque from his office.
“Let us help,” she responded.
So was a partnership formed between Maine’s top education official and a foundation entangled with the very companies that stand to make millions of dollars from the policies it advocates.
In the months that followed, according to more than 1,000 pages of emails obtained by a public records request, the commissioner would rely on the foundation to provide him with key portions of his education agenda. These included draft laws, the content of the administration’s digital education strategy and the text ofGov. Paul LePage (http://www.pressherald.com/search?searchterm=%22Gov.+Paul+LePage%22)’s Feb. 1 executive order on digital education.
A Maine Sunday Telegram investigation found large portions of Maine’s digital education agenda are being guided behind the scenes by out-of-state companies that stand to capitalize on the changes, especially the nation’s two largest online education providers.

K12 Inc. of Herndon, Va., and Connections Education, the Baltimore-based subsidiary of education publishing giant Pearson, are both seeking to expand online offerings and to open full-time virtual charter schools in Maine, with taxpayers paying the tuition for the students who use the services.



Original report:
Special Report: The profit motive behind virtual schools in Maine | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram (http://www.pressherald.com/news/virtual-schools-in-maine_2012-09-02.html)
September 13
Special Report: The profit motive behind virtual schools in Maine (http://www.pressherald.com/news/virtual-schools-in-maine_2012-09-02.html) Documents expose the flow of money and influence from corporations that stand to profit from state leaders' efforts to expand and deregulate digital education. By Colin Woodard (http://www.pressherald.com/contact/Colin_Woodard.html) cwoodard@pressherald.com
Staff Writer

This story originally was published on Sept. 2, 2012.
KEY FINDINGS

PULLING THE STRINGS: Maine's digital education agenda is being guided behind the scenes by out-of-state companies that stand to profit on the changes.
FLORIDA CONNECTION: The LePage administration has relied heavily on former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's Foundation for Excellence in Education, a conservative think tank, in writing policies to create taxpayer-funded virtual schools in Maine.
FOLLOW THE MONEY: This foundation and its top officials receive funding from online education companies, which will profit if the initiatives go forward.
REMOTE CONTROL: The foundation wrote much of the language in Gov. Paul LePage's Feb. 1 executive order on digital learning, which embraces foundation policies.
BACKSTAGE MEETINGS: The secretive American Legislative Exchange Council -- a corporate-backed political group for state legislators -- developed digital learning legislation that was introduced by Maine lawmakers. Stephen Bowen (pictured) was a private-sector member until he was appointed education commissioner in Maine.
FAILING GRADES: Virtual schools have no classrooms, little or no in-person teaching and a poor track record compared to public schools. (Sidebar, A5)
CRITICS REACT: National education leaders say democratic governance is being superseded by corporate control.
• BACKGROUND DOCUMENTS
Comparison of Gov. LePage's executive order (http://assets.pressherald.com/images/lepage_digital_proclamation.jpg) on digital learning and the
draft order provided by the Foundation for Excellence in Education.
Digital Learning Now! agenda (http://media.kjonline.com/documents/digital+learning+metrics.pdf) (adopted by LePage administration)
American Legislative Exchange documents (http://media.kjonline.com/documents/alec_bowen_attendance.pdf) leaked to Common Cause showing Stephen Bowen's membership and attendance at ALEC meetings.
Emails between Stephen Bowen and Patricia Levesque (http://media.kjonline.com/documents/digital+learning+bowen+emails.pdf), executive director of Foundation for Excellence in Education.
Patricia Levesque's compensation (http://assets.pressherald.com/images/excellence_in_ed_990.pdf) (from Foundation for Excellence in Education's 2010 IRS filing)
• ADDITIONAL READING
New York Times Dec 2011 investigation of K12 Inc. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/education/online-schools-score-better-on-wall-street-than-in-classrooms.html)

And:
Studies: Existing full-time virtual schools earn poor grades | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram (http://www.pressherald.com/news/studies-existing-full-time-virtual-schools-earn-poor-grades_2012-09-02.html)


A study released in July by researchers at Western Michigan University found that only 27.7 percent of the full-time virtual schools run by the nation's largest online education company, K12 Inc., met federally mandated Adequate Yearly Progress goals, compared to 52 percent of public schools.

Students at its schools scored lower in both reading and math and had a graduation rate of only 49 percent, compared to a 79 percent average among comparable students at public schools in the 24 states where the virtual schools are located.

"Across a wide variety of school measures they do very poorly, even though their demographics looked to us like suburban schools," says the study's lead author, Gary Miron, who is also a fellow at the National Education Policy Center. "We didn't see high poverty or a lot of ESL (English as a Second Language) students."



The virtual schools are paid for by taxpayers, but the students learn largely from home, with lessons delivered online from teachers tens, hundreds or even thousands of miles away. There is no schoolhouse, playground, gymnasium or lunch hall, although under some models students will occasionally meet for face-time sessions with each other and an educator.

In lower grades – virtual schools start at kindergarten – the programs typically rely on parents who act as “learning coaches,” following instructions that appear on their child’s computer. Older students do most of the work online themselves.
Teachers monitor and grade students remotely. They answer questions online or by telephone. Major national online teaching companies such as K12 Inc. have teacher-student ratios as high as 60 to 1.



Like American "health care" American education system is very expensive and we see routinely the results are extremely modest... And where ever there's a lot of money being shovelled willy-nilly, there's going to be people trying to suck in as much as they can..
Taxpayer pays, private Media Corporation profits.

And as always, the usual suspects blame those at the lowest rung of the ladder.... How predicable. ..how sad.

[Starter]

K-12. The model was as a charter school, open to all in the states served. No requirement to participate other than a desire to sign up. Students from all backgrounds participated. The company is Connections Education (formerly Connections Academy - which is now a division of CE) and has now expanded to other arenas of education as well. You can check it out on line if you wish and have a few minutes. I left about a year ago - retired.
Sorry, I had forgotten, in this earlier post, to mention the costs of the program. The funding is determined between the Board of Education and the Company. It is almost always the cost per student of the educational unit (usually state, county or school district) which is then paid to the company per student enrolled in the charter program. That's the total compensation. The company actually has certified teachers located in the states served who are assigned to the students. Even with the cost of providing technology (computers) to enrolled students, the company can make a tidy profit because they don't have to maintain the (often crumbling) brick and mortar schools, the administrative overhead, and the company's teachers are non union.

[Rollo]

The Presidential Debate kicks off in about 20 minutes time. I honestly expect to hear nothing of any import from either side.

I do expect more "spin" than a top in a blender in a washing machine on a carousel though.

[janvanvurpa]

meh. Willard din't crash and burn, but he sure made no effort to explain a single detail of his big 5 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan. "Trust me", was him main message, "I'm going to create 27 million new jobs."

Limp from willard, Obama was fine just holding the position.
I don't think he expected to crush the weaselly Willard..
He needs to hammer on the flip flop flip flop that we've seen so hilariously from Willard

[Rollo]

meh. Willard din't crash and burn, but he sure made no effort to explain a single detail of his big 5 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan.

Not entirely true. There was one:
“I’m sorry, Jim, I’m gonna stop the subsidy to PBS… I like PBS. I love Big Bird. I actually like you, too.”
- Mitt Romney, 3rd Oct 2012


If you work out the maths on this, cutting the subsidy to PBS amounts to 0.012% of the Federal Budget. To put that in perspective, it would be the same as me cutting 22c from my weekly pay packet, which isn't even enough to buy a Chuppa Chupp.

[FIAT1]

I have said before that decision who to vote for should be easy one, when you have to chose which of the two men you would give your money to be invested in the future. With all do respect to the president he looked like a lost amateur receiving a lecture on how things work in free enterprise capitalist society.

[DanicaFan]

Can Obama say....Owned ? LOL Romney was much better than Obama lastnight. Romney was much better prepared. Obama didnt respond to Mitt's remarks directed to him, instead he talked around them. Obama did need a teleprompter. He didnt know how to answer questions live without editing and liberal media favortism...lol He just stuttered around and when he couldnt think of something, he brings up his grandma again.....lol

Even CNN polls said Romney won the debate by a landslide...67 %.

Im sorry but Obama kept saying he had these plans to cut deficit, blah, blah, blah. Well, he has been in office for 4 years now and he has only increased it more than every other president combined. So much for his plan.... What a joke! It's hard to be in his shoes because saying what he thinks people want to hear but knowing they know the facts and thats the opposite of what he says. I find it hard to believe anything this guy says.

All I have to say is when Paul Ryan debates Joe Biden, that is going to be hilarious! Ryan will wipe the floor with Biden. If I was Biden I wouldnt show up...lol Biden is more of a joke than Obama.

[Ranger]

All I have to say is when Paul Ryan debates Joe Biden, that is going to be hilarious!

No doubt Paul Ryan will justify his personal view that rape and incest are not reasons for a woman to have an abortion.

Hilarious, no?

[janvanvurpa]

Can Obama say....Owned ? LOL Romney was much better than Obama lastnight. Romney was much better prepared. Obama didnt respond to Mitt's remarks directed to him, instead he talked around them. Obama did need a teleprompter. He didnt know how to answer questions live without editing and liberal media favortism...lol He just stuttered around and when he couldnt think of something, he brings up his grandma again.....lol

Even CNN polls said Romney won the debate by a landslide...67 %.

Im sorry but Obama kept saying he had these plans to cut deficit, blah, blah, blah.

Well, he has been in office for 4 years now and he has only increased it more than every other president combined. :eek:

So much for his plan.... What a joke! It's hard to be in his shoes because saying what he thinks people want to hear but knowing they know the facts and thats the opposite of what he says. I find it hard to believe anything this guy says.

All I have to say is when Paul Ryan debates Joe Biden, that is going to be hilarious! Ryan will wipe the floor with Biden. If I was Biden I wouldnt show up...lol Biden is more of a joke than Obama.

You keep repeating this Republican bullpucky again and again. Now i know for you it would be a huge effort to click on a link and read a few lines so on that absurd claim I'll copy for you what Factcheck.org lays out clearly:

FactCheck.org : Dubious Denver Debate Declarations (http://factcheck.org/2012/10/dubious-denver-debate-declarations/)

Romney: The president said he’d cut the deficit in half. Unfortunately, he doubled it. Trillion-dollar deficits for the last four years.

It’s not true that Obama “doubled” the deficit. He inherited a $1.2 trillion deficit and deficits have remained at or above that level, as Romney said, every year since then. Romney is right, however, that Obama has not kept his promise to cut the deficit in half.

Here’s the budget history in brief: The 2009 fiscal year began Oct. 1, 2008, when George W. Bush was president, and ended Sept. 30, 2009 with Obama as president. By the time Obama took office in January 2009, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office had already estimated (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9957/toc.htm) that the federal government would end fiscal 2009 with a $1.2 trillion deficit because of higher spending and lower revenues.

Obama added to the 2009 deficit, but not by much. We found (http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/) that Obama was responsible at most for an additional $203 billion. The government ended $1.4 trillion in the red that year. The deficits were about $1.3 trillion each year for the next two years (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist01z1.xls), and this fiscal year just ended with a shortfall of nearly $1.2 trillion (http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43572).

So, Obama didn’t double the deficits.
But the president did pledge to cut them in half by the end of his first term during his State of the Union address (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-barack-obama-address-joint-session-congress) on Feb. 24, 2009. A Congressional Budget Office analysis (http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/03-16-APB1.pdf) of the president’s latest budget plan doesn’t show the deficit being cut in half until 2014.



You could, if you can manage to click read more of the dubious claims but this place which is non-partisan says in summary:
Home (http://factcheck.org/) • Articles (http://factcheck.org/articles/) • Dubious Denver Debate Declarations



]Dubious Denver Debate Declarations Obama and Romney swap exaggerations and false claims in their first meeting. Posted on October 4, 2012
Summary
We found exaggerations and false claims flying thick and fast during the first debate between President Obama and his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney.


Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true. Romney proposes to offset his rate cuts and promises he won’t add to the deficit. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Romney again promised to “not reduce the taxes paid by high-income Americans” and also to “lower taxes on middle-income families,” but didn’t say how he could possibly accomplish that without also increasing the deficit. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Obama oversold his health care law, claiming that health care premiums have “gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years.” That’s true of health care spending, but not premiums. And the health care law had little to do with the slowdown in overall spending. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Romney claimed a new board established by the Affordable Care Act is “going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have.” Not true. The board only recommends cost-saving measures for Medicare, and is legally forbidden to ration care or reduce benefits. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Obama said 5 million private-sector jobs had been created in the past 30 months. Perhaps so, but that counts jobs that the Bureau of Labor Statistics won’t add to the official monthly tallies until next year. For now, the official tally is a bit over 4.6 million. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Romney accused Obama of doubling the federal deficit. Not true. The annual deficit was already running at $1.2 trillion when Obama took office. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Obama again said he’d raise taxes on upper-income persons only to the “rates that we had when Bill Clinton was president.” Actually, many high-income persons would pay more than they did then, because of new taxes in Obama’s health care law. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Romney claimed that middle-income Americans have “seen their income come down by $4,300.” That’s too high. Census figures show the decline in median household income during Obama’s first three years was $2,492, even after adjusting for inflation. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Obama again touted his “$4 trillion” deficit reduction plan, which includes $1 trillion from winding down wars that are coming to an end in any event. [/*:m:3k5mufut]
Romney sometimes came off as a serial exaggerator.
He said “up to” 20 million might lose health insurance under the new law, citing a Congressional Budget Office study that actually put the likely number who would lose employer-sponsored coverage at between 3 million and 5 million.

He said 23 million Americans are “out of work” when the actual number of jobless is much lower.

He claimed half of all college grads this year can’t find work, when, in fact, an AP story said half either were jobless or underemployed.

And he again said Obama “cut” $716 billion from Medicare, a figure that actually reflects a 10-year target for slowing Medicare spending, which will continue to grow.



It seems that you are impervious to reality as reflected in your truly bizarre obsession evidenced in your screen name.
It is scary that you are presumably allowed to drive, much less vote.

The Media has to say something about the snore-fest it was, mainly for simple minded low-information type people who need sensationalism, and Romney polished his persona and didn't sputter any more stupid outbursts like his "47% are victims and expect the government to...."

That was a major accomplishment, so if you need personal reinforcment for your fantasies, we could say he did well, but personally I thought he acted and sounded like the spoiled frat boy he was and still is with his interrupting and talking over the moderator and ignoring the debate rules he agreed to.. typical spoiled frat boy behavior

[FIAT1]

Without any affiliation to any group or party one can easly conclude that without teleprompter and written speeches president looked very weak and lost. There is nothing to gloat about a fact that he didn't do well and did not show back bone as a current leader ,instead we should be a concerned who should lead a business future of this great country and who will lead negotiations of this strong super power in international trade and world affairs. Personally I think you don't want a poodle doing a job designated for doberman. Think carefuly and cast your vote.

[DanicaFan]

The Vice Presidential debate will be broadcast on Comedy Central....lol Joe Biden will be there talking, it will be very comical. He is going to get smoked by Ryan bad!

[Don Capps]

I am still trying to figure out how terminating Big Bird will resolve the deficit problem....

[Starter]

I am still trying to figure out how terminating Big Bird will resolve the deficit problem....
Terminating Big Bird won't solve the deficit problem, but it will save everyone on their grocery bill. Lots of white and dark meat on that sucker. I'm holding out for a drumstick myself.

More to the point, every little bit helps. I think it was Senator Everett Dirkson, back in the 50's, who said (more or less, I don't have the exact quote handy) "A million here and a million there and pretty soon you'll be talking about real money.

[chuck34]

I find it funny that there are actually people here trying to defend the President's "debate" last night. Even when guys as far Left as Bill Maher, Chris Matthews, and James Carville are telling the truth, that Obama was a disgrace last night. He really is only as good as his telleprompter.

[janvanvurpa]

Terminating Big Bird won't solve the deficit problem, but it will save everyone on their grocery bill. Lots of white and dark meat on that sucker. I'm holding out for a drumstick myself.

More to the point, every little bit helps. I think it was Senator Everett Dirkson, back in the 50's, who said (more or less, I don't have the exact quote handy) "A million here and a million there and pretty soon you'll be talking about real money.

So, then , obviously you must be in favor of cutting the serious fat out of the budget and limit "Defense" spending to oh, say, maybe just twice what the next 20 nations on earth spend.

If anything is hilarious the ideological waste of time over 0.012%, twelve thousandths of one percent, when theres 30-35% of the entire budget than could be pared away easily.

[FIAT1]

I find it funny that there are actually people here trying to defend the President's "debate" last night. Even when guys as far Left as Bill Maher, Chris Matthews, and James Carville are telling the truth, that Obama was a disgrace last night. He really is only as good as his telleprompter.

Good article here about last night.


HURT: Obama the debater: Making Jimmy Carter look awesome - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/3/hurt-obama-debater-making-jimmy-carter-look-awesom/)

[Rollo]

More to the point, every little bit helps. I think it was Senator Everett Dirkson, back in the 50's, who said (more or less, I don't have the exact quote handy) "A million here and a million there and pretty soon you'll be talking about real money.

Just over half the US Federal Budget is made of Medicare & Medicaid, Social Security and Defence Spending. Those first two sections of pie will grow massively over the next twenty years as the baby-boom starts drawing pensions, getting old and causing vast expenses.

According to the NRA, it has just over 4 million members. In contrast the AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) probably has 40 million members, or roughly ten times as many.
AARP (http://www.aarp.org/about-aarp/press-center/info-2007/rx_bargaining_power.html)

Which parts of the US Federal Budget are the AARP more likely to lobby for?
"Protecting and strengthening Medicare and Social Security for the future are the very heart and soul of our mission."
A Vote for the Future - Course of Medicare, Social Security - AARP (http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/advocacy/info-10-2012/election-senior-citizens-barry-rand.html)

Who is going to pay for the oldies? This is a generation which will expect to maintain or improve their standards of living unlike their parents. The most immature, selfish generation of people the world has ever created is over the course of the next 20 years, set to also be the most expensive...

...and yet Romney speaks of PBS.

[ArrowsFA1]

A word of warning to those celebrating Romney's "win" in the first debate. As I recall a certain Nick Clegg was considered to have done very well in the first UK election debate in 2010. There was even speculation that, on the basis of his performance, he may be considered a realistic prospect for Prime Minister.

[janvanvurpa]

A word of warning to those celebrating Romney's "win" in the first debate. As I recall a certain Nick Clegg was considered to have done very well in the first UK election debate in 2010. There was even speculation that, on the basis of his performance, he may be considered a realistic prospect for Prime Minister.

That Obama guy seems to be able to hold himself back, bide his time. He knows the American people, he came out of the most American city right in the heart of middle America....he probably knows the attention span of "the undecided" has to be in the range of minutes, maybe at best hours or days.
It could very well be that he's waiting to a later--a closer date to the election ---to turn up the heat and ask Willard about
His tax returns
his Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts
his predatory capitalism at Bain
his frank contempt at---and misguided---"the 47%" (misguided when looking at the Rebublican "base" like the 3rd World Paradise of Mississippi when there has been for years the highest % on Federal assistance of various sources and which has voted solid Repo-gun for decades---)
The flip flops he is notorious for.----but that of course could be limited by the time available... :uhoh:

[Rollo]

This whole discussion is an aside:


As I recall a certain Nick Clegg was considered to have done very well in the first UK election debate in 2010. There was even speculation that, on the basis of his performance, he may be considered a realistic prospect for Prime Minister.


If Clegg was going to be the Prime Minister, in a coalition he would usually have been the leader of the majority party within that coalition. There are of course exceptions to this.
The vote for the president though, is a single post constituency with a set of weighted votes.

The other difference is that the Prime Minister is selected from the elected members, whereas the President candidates are nominated before the election.

Actually technically the position of the Prime Minister doesn't actually need to exist. In some Westminster parliaments where there is a set of codified rules, they're not even mentioned at all. The Prime Minister is not outlined in the Canadian Constitution and as far as I know is only mentioned in the supplement Schedule B. In the Australian Constitution there's not even a specific mention of the Prime Minister.

[Starter]

Just over half the US Federal Budget is made of Medicare & Medicaid, Social Security and Defence Spending. Those first two sections of pie will grow massively over the next twenty years as the baby-boom starts drawing pensions, getting old and causing vast expenses.

According to the NRA, it has just over 4 million members. In contrast the AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) probably has 40 million members, or roughly ten times as many.
AARP (http://www.aarp.org/about-aarp/press-center/info-2007/rx_bargaining_power.html)

Which parts of the US Federal Budget are the AARP more likely to lobby for?
"Protecting and strengthening Medicare and Social Security for the future are the very heart and soul of our mission."
A Vote for the Future - Course of Medicare, Social Security - AARP (http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/advocacy/info-10-2012/election-senior-citizens-barry-rand.html)

Who is going to pay for the oldies? This is a generation which will expect to maintain or improve their standards of living unlike their parents. The most immature, selfish generation of people the world has ever created is over the course of the next 20 years, set to also be the most expensive...

...and yet Romney speaks of PBS.
You have missed, perhaps because you don't get all the info over there, exactly what Romney said. He said he wouldn't change Social Security for those already on it or soon to retire. That's only fair as those people made their retirement plans based on what our political leaders promised over the years. (Yes, the Repubs were just as phoney as the Dems.) He said there would be changes, including means testing for those below, I believe, age 55. All the figures show current reserves should be able to accommodate that.

The real budget busters are Medicare and Medicade. There will have to be substantial changes there to keep the country solvent and he acknowledged that also. Something Obama has NOT done. By the way, don't go just by AARP membership numbers. It's not a monolithic bloc. Many members vote conservatively.

Defense spending was not a subject of this debate. I'll wait to see what he says on that. IMO, our country can't go on spending the amount of money we do now on defense. Though I'm not for draconian cuts either.

[Rollo]

The real budget busters are Medicare and Medicade. There will have to be substantial changes there to keep the country solvent and he acknowledged that also. Something Obama has NOT done. By the way, don't go just by AARP membership numbers. It's not a monolithic bloc. Many members vote conservatively.


Something Obama has NOT done... or Bush Jr, or Clinton, or Bush Sr, or Reagan, or Carter, or Ford, or Nixon, or LJB, or JFK... I mean come on, it's not like there hasn't been forewarning of this. I need to find a copy of the Federal Paper on this commissioned on the need to save for this right at the end of Eisenhower's presidency. I came across that once, but can't remember when or where I saw it.

[Roamy]

That Obama guy seems to be able to hold himself back, bide his time. He knows the American people, he came out of the most American city right in the heart of middle America....he probably knows the attention span of "the undecided" has to be in the range of minutes, maybe at best hours or days.
It could very well be that he's waiting to a later--a closer date to the election ---to turn up the heat and ask Willard about
His tax returns
his Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts
his predatory capitalism at Bain
his frank contempt at---and misguided---"the 47%" (misguided when looking at the Rebublican "base" like the 3rd World Paradise of Mississippi when there has been for years the highest % on Federal assistance of various sources and which has voted solid Repo-gun for decades---)
The flip flops he is notorious for.----but that of course could be limited by the time available... :uhoh:


so you figure what we saw last night was "rope a dope"

[Starter]

Something Obama has NOT done... or Bush Jr, or Clinton, or Bush Sr, or Reagan, or Carter, or Ford, or Nixon, or LJB, or JFK... I mean come on, it's not like there hasn't been forewarning of this. I need to find a copy of the Federal Paper on this commissioned on the need to save for this right at the end of Eisenhower's presidency. I came across that once, but can't remember when or where I saw it.
Only a fool couldn't see this looming on the horizon. Well....a fool and politicians running for reelection.

[Rollo]

The thing is that I don't see either Obama or Romney doing anything about this at all; not do I see the candidates in 2016 doing anything about it either. Maybe in 2020 there'll be talk about it, but I doubt it.

It'll be when all the bills really start to roll in about 2022 that the excrement will hit the oscillating air current device and I suspect that the 2024 and 2028 elections will be very heated indeed.

[janvanvurpa]

so you figure what we saw last night was "rope a dope"

Come on man, you're old enough to know what a short attention span most people have developed, and what a short "News Cycle' things run on these days....

I'm not a big fan of Obama, I think he's far too far to what was once the "Right", and too cozy with Wall Street, but I have seen him be this cool cucumber, bidding his time.
He's smart, real smart, it could be..

Cause it was a pretty limp performance....that ain't him. He's not scared of Willard -the-frat-boy...

[FIAT1]

Debate showed how smart successful businessmen knowing his stuff from experience moped the floor with clueless when it comes to running the business. President means well ,but it was obvious that he was out out of his league on the matter.No wonder we are in this predicament being stuck in 2nd gear for last four years.

[Tazio]

I am still trying to figure out how terminating Big Bird will resolve the deficit problem....
It's beside the point. It will open up people’s eyes to meaningful programming like "The Real Housewives of Orange County" :p :

[Gregor-y]

Romney's statements do put Ryan and a lot of the conservative ideas his party supports in a bad spot for the next debate, however. I'm not a fan of rope-a-dope since I think the President had plenty of ammo to really hit Romney on his past statements and what was said during the debate, but then I'm so tired of listening to Republicans on stage without someone on the spot to point our how wrong they are each time they open their mouth (kind of like we have here) that I was hoping for the debate to be an opportunity to see it in action.

[Gregor-y]

By the by, here's why I don't have much interest in voting for Republicans. This an elected representative that the Republican party has placed on the House Science Committee speaking last month:
Rep. Broun: Evolution, Embryology, Big Bang Theory Are "Lies Straight From The Pit Of Hell" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rikEWuBrkHc)

[Starter]

By the by, here's why I don't have much interest in voting for Republicans. This an elected representative that the Republican party has placed on the House Science Committee speaking last month:
Rep. Broun: Evolution, Embryology, Big Bang Theory Are "Lies Straight From The Pit Of Hell" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rikEWuBrkHc)
Wackos come in all sizes and shapes. You would be in error to think that there aren't any on your (assumed from your comments) side. Also, do you blame that Congressman or the people who elected him?

[janvanvurpa]

Debate showed how smart successful businessmen knowing his stuff from experience moped the floor with clueless when it comes to running the business. President means well ,but it was obvious that he was out out of his league on the matter.No wonder we are in this predicament being stuck in 2nd gear for last four years.


You're funny.
Since this is a motorsport forum an analogy using cars:
Maybe we've been stuck in second gear for 12 years because we allowed this fine car we have called America to be driven by a bunch of born on 3rd base, never really had to work rich frat boys run it and they and their friends made a whole sheeeeut pile of money by never reading the owners manual, never did any maintenance cause daddy would have other people work on it, OR they would just run it hard till the thing broke, and just walk away---and grab the next car to abuse.... And they stopped maintaining it at the same time they and their friends decided to straighten out everybody else's problems in the world for a long list of ever changing reasons and all their guns and M1 and F16s cost a lot of money, but they never paid for anything in their lives to this point, why should they do anything about the cost of their playing now?

So after the frat boys have broken the car called America, it doesn't go very fast anymore, it crawls along squeaking and grinding gears and guess what, it is going to cost a lot of money from somewhere to fix what the Frat boys did for damage.

Kind of like your FIAT. They can run again like or better than before, and even a Fiat can go really well but in the meantime you have to Fix It Again Today, Fix It Again Tomorrow, Fix It Again Tony cause its a Fruitless Italian Attempt at Technology.


Of course if you're a typical Fiat fan, then an analogy of a running car and maintenance and modding it to work better is probably not going to resonate too well with your experience.


Give you a big hint Tony, Obama may be too comfy with Wall Street Plutocrats for my taste I believe, but all of us have more than ample evidence of what happens when we choose from the current generation the sons of men who actually made stuff, who got rich using Daddy's money and connections, who have been totally insulated from the costs of their actions...

Even you ought to be able to see that.

[FIAT1]

You're funny.
Since this is a motorsport forum an analogy using cars:
Maybe we've been stuck in second gear for 12 years because we allowed this fine car we have called America to be driven by a bunch of born on 3rd base, never really had to work rich frat boys run it and they and their friends made a whole sheeeeut pile of money by never reading the owners manual, never did any maintenance cause daddy would have other people work on it, OR they would just run it hard till the thing broke, and just walk away---and grab the next car to abuse.... And they stopped maintaining it at the same time they and their friends decided to straighten out everybody else's problems in the world for a long list of ever changing reasons and all their guns and M1 and F16s cost a lot of money, but they never paid for anything in their lives to this point, why should they do anything about the cost of their playing now?

So after the frat boys have broken the car called America, it doesn't go very fast anymore, it crawls along squeaking and grinding gears and guess what, it is going to cost a lot of money from somewhere to fix what the Frat boys did for damage.

Kind of like your FIAT. They can run again like or better than before, and even a Fiat can go really well but in the meantime you have to Fix It Again Today, Fix It Again Tomorrow, Fix It Again Tony cause its a Fruitless Italian Attempt at Technology.


Of course if you're a typical Fiat fan, then an analogy of a running car and maintenance and modding it to work better is probably not going to resonate too well with your experience.


Give you a big hint Tony, Obama may be too comfy with Wall Street Plutocrats for my taste I believe, but all of us have more than ample evidence of what happens when we choose from the current generation the sons of men who actually made stuff, who got rich using Daddy's money and connections, who have been totally insulated from the costs of their actions...

Even you ought to be able to see that.

This old car is still the best but needs a new driver that knows how to drive and finish first. Amateur hr is over. Rich guy and his money? Understand this, IT'S HIS MONEY not yours or mine therefore he can do with that whatever he wants. When I see a smart guy who did well I allways want to meet him and learn from him therefore I can better my self and family.That's my philosophy, and if I ever meet rich guy with daddy's money, rest assure I will ask him for good advice in which island fund to invest so my kids can go and do bigger and better things. I admire success! Btw Fiat owns Ferrari,Alfa Romeo and I think some car company from here. Love bing a fan of FIAT. Non essere arrabbiato Mio caro amico!

[janvanvurpa]

This old car is still the best but needs a new driver that knows how to drive and finish first. Amateur hr is over. Rich guy and his money? Understand this, IT'S HIS MONEY not yours or mine therefore he can do with that whatever he wants. When I see a smart guy who did well I allways want to meet him and learn from him therefore I can better my self and family.That's my philosophy, and if I ever meet rich guy with daddy's money, rest assure I will ask him for good advice in which island fund to invest so my kids can go and do bigger and better things. I admire success! Btw Fiat owns Ferrari,Alfa Romeo and I think some car company from here. Love bing a fan of FIAT. Non essere arrabbiato Mio caro amico!

God what a bunch of drivel.
What a waste of time. You ignore that the car WAS BROKEN by spoiled idiots...
Just because a guys Daddy was rich and gives him a pile of cash and connections to Daddy's rich buddies does not mean the kid is smart, indeed it is a cultural commonplace that spoiled children become dumb---even if they can LEVERAGE Daddy's money into more.

I admire earned success, not mere rapacious plundering for personal, limitless greed.

Do you have trouble processing analogies?

[ioan]

The Vice Presidential debate will be broadcast on Comedy Central....lol Joe Biden will be there talking, it will be very comical. He is going to get smoked by Ryan bad!

:rolleyes:

[FIAT1]

God what a bunch of drivel.
What a waste of time. You ignore that the car WAS BROKEN by spoiled idiots...
Just because a guys Daddy was rich and gives him a pile of cash and connections to Daddy's rich buddies does not mean the kid is smart, indeed it is a cultural commonplace that spoiled children become dumb---even if they can LEVERAGE Daddy's money into more.

I admire earned success, not mere rapacious plundering for personal, limitless greed.

Do you have trouble processing analogies?

Car was broken by spoiled ? Perhaps , but those who don't know how to drive or what to do with that ,are last to be my choice
to make it faster. We can call candidates by their middle name, one can be called by name of stereotyping his origin and one can be angry at a world, but one fact remains, my money and my interest will go with one that can do better for me, and my post was always about a choice that serves my purpose. Command on the subject of business was fully displayed the other night by one man who knows how ,and that answered many questions for me. I'm still watching and drdriving straight , and for those who don't like it, left turn is up ahead. Oh wait ,I know this turning signal already.

[anthonyvop]

Kind of like your FIAT. They can run again like or better than before, and even a Fiat can go really well but in the meantime you have to Fix It Again Today, Fix It Again Tomorrow, Fix It Again Tony cause its a Fruitless Italian Attempt at Technology.


Of course if you're a typical Fiat fan, then an analogy of a running car and maintenance and modding it to work better is probably not going to resonate too well with your experience.





Wait. You are actually using FIAT as an example? FIAT? The epitome of a once great company almost being destroyed by Socialist policies and bowing to the unions?


BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA............Incredible.

[janvanvurpa]

Wait. You are actually using FIAT as an example? FIAT? The epitome of a once great company almost being destroyed by Socialist policies and bowing to the unions?


BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA............Incredible.

Yeah Vop. Sneaky deep cover cells of suicide Syndicalists studied in Universities and got jobs as accountants and designers and engineers and sneaked into board meetings and shouted Si! to every stupid idea that management came up with just to screw the company so it would lose money and close plants...
And I bet you those guys once they had closed down Fiat factories, they flew to Mexico and sneaked accords the border when Migra was distracted and got jobs at the US Big 3 and did the same thjng again. Dirty Unions trying to force those poor Corporate heads to pay them a decent wage.

Everything is always the little guys fault. Always.
Man you right-wing extremists really have you finger on the pulse of reality...


(Look I know you're old and overweight and probably have diabetes and can't read but did you happen to notice that the lock-step marching Libaugh fan has a screen name with Fiat in it?? The analogy made no reference to any brand car, indeed we made up one call "America" It was after the analogy that in a futile attempt to jog whassis name into understanding, I said "Its kinda like your Fiat...."
You're once again reading sloppily, twisting things to your well known preconceived viewpoint, claiming others wrote things they didn't and acting like a jerk about your purposeful mis-reading)

Further, like you always do, you trip over one unimportant detail and try to ignore the meat of the idea---you and your sort like those weapons of mass ditraction since you are totally lacking any original thought..You better check your sugar levels Voppie!

[anthonyvop]

Yeah Vop. Sneaky deep cover cells of suicide Syndicalists studied in Universities and got jobs as accountants and designers and engineers and sneaked into board meetings and shouted Si! to every stupid idea that management came up with just to screw the company so it would lose money and close plants...
And I bet you those guys once they had closed down Fiat factories, they flew to Mexico and sneaked accords the border when Migra was distracted and got jobs at the US Big 3 and did the same thjng again. Dirty Unions trying to force those poor Corporate heads to pay them a decent wage.

Everything is always the little guys fault. Always.
Man you right-wing extremists really have you finger on the pulse of reality...


(Look I know you're old and overweight and probably have diabetes and can't read but did you happen to notice that the lock-step marching Libaugh fan has a screen name with Fiat in it?? The analogy made no reference to any brand car, indeed we made up one call "America" It was after the analogy that in a futile attempt to jog whassis name into understanding, I said "Its kinda like your Fiat...."
You're once again reading sloppily, twisting things to your well known preconceived viewpoint, claiming others wrote things they didn't and acting like a jerk about your purposeful mis-reading)

Further, like you always do, you trip over one unimportant detail and try to ignore the meat of the idea---you and your sort like those weapons of mass ditraction since you are totally lacking any original thought..You better check your sugar levels Voppie!


You funny! incredibly wrong but Funny!

2 words......Soviet Steel.

[FIAT1]

Yeah Vop. Sneaky deep cover cells of suicide Syndicalists studied in Universities and got jobs as accountants and designers and engineers and sneaked into board meetings and shouted Si! to every stupid idea that management came up with just to screw the company so it would lose money and close plants...
And I bet you those guys once they had closed down Fiat factories, they flew to Mexico and sneaked accords the border when Migra was distracted and got jobs at the US Big 3 and did the same thjng again. Dirty Unions trying to force those poor Corporate heads to pay them a decent wage.

Everything is always the little guys fault. Always.
Man you right-wing extremists really have you finger on the pulse of reality...


(Look I know you're old and overweight and probably have diabetes and can't read but did you happen to notice that the lock-step marching Libaugh fan has a screen name with Fiat in it?? The analogy made no reference to any brand car, indeed we made up one call "America" It was after the analogy that in a futile attempt to jog whassis name into understanding, I said "Its kinda like your Fiat...."
You're once again reading sloppily, twisting things to your well known preconceived viewpoint, claiming others wrote things they didn't and acting like a jerk about your purposeful mis-reading)

Further, like you always do, you trip over one unimportant detail and try to ignore the meat of the idea---you and your sort like those weapons of mass ditraction since you are totally lacking any original thought..You better check your sugar levels Voppie!

Typical professional victim leftist meltdown ,when everything alse fails call people names, seperate them by race, gender, class, and in this case insult with assumption of medical condition.Impressive.

[janvanvurpa]

Typical professional victim leftist meltdown ,when everything alse fails call people names, seperate them by race, gender, class, and in this case insult with assumption of medical condition.Impressive.

Typical moron right winger post which like your buddies Vop and Danicawannabe and every single one of you freaks has nothing to do with anything written, and nothing to do with Presidential election


I think--MODERATORS THAT IS A MITIGATING PHRASE--YOU BRILLIANT MODS KNOW WHAT A MITIGATING PHRASE IS?----you are mentally disabled, or otherwise incapacitated regarding higher brain functions but you evidently can hunt and peck---

Why cannot you look at the nice simple analogy presented and have a coherent thought about that?
It's like you have some problem that really prevents ANY response that might POSSIBLY be rational and can only type things randomly---as long as they do not apply to subject of thread or any possible interpertation of anything written here.

You do realise don't you, that the quoted thing was a contemptuous and intentionally sarcastic answer to the Jabba-the-Hut like, admitted troll, "I-resuse ever to cite a source from crazy claims" guy who is too ashamed to put his name out there and hides behind the handle Vop, who only types one line assertions, and is incapable of any analysis longer that maybe 7-9 words.

Now then, before I report your words as fighting, and insulting* explain you "logic" that the sarcastic reply to the "genius" Vop claim makes me a "professional Victim", make it a meltdown,?



* Don't worry, the Mods never chastise any guys like you.

[FIAT1]

Typical moron right winger post which like your buddies Vop and Danicawannabe and every single one of you freaks has nothing to do with anything written, and nothing to do with Presidential election


I think--MODERATORS THAT IS A MITIGATING PHRASE--YOU BRILLIANT MODS KNOW WHAT A MITIGATING PHRASE IS?----you are mentally disabled, or otherwise incapacitated regarding higher brain functions but you evidently can hunt and peck---

Why cannot you look at the nice simple analogy presented and have a coherent thought about that?
It's like you have some problem that really prevents ANY response that might POSSIBLY be rational and can only type things randomly---as long as they do not apply to subject of thread or any possible interpertation of anything written here.

You do realise don't you, that the quoted thing was a contemptuous and intentionally sarcastic answer to the Jabba-the-Hut like, admitted troll, "I-resuse ever to cite a source from crazy claims" guy who is too ashamed to put his name out there and hides behind the handle Vop, who only types one line assertions, and is incapable of any analysis longer that maybe 7-9 words.

Now then, before I report your words as fighting, and insulting* explain you "logic" that the sarcastic reply to the "genius" Vop claim makes me a "professional Victim", make it a meltdown,?



* Don't worry, the Mods never chastise any guys like you.

Oh no,more names and distinctive description for different view. Now I get it ,it's simple analogy and little sarcasm right? Cool! Hope you have a great day and best in life. Waste of time, indeed.

[Mark]

So far I'd been impressed with the restraint on this thread but the last few posts - which I've deleted - went off the deep end. CALM DOWN.

And no 'it was his fault' is not acceptable.

[BDunnell]

Wait. You are actually using FIAT as an example? FIAT? The epitome of a once great company almost being destroyed by Socialist policies and bowing to the unions?


BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA............Incredible.

Ah, yes, because a company either sinks or swims on the basis of its position on the perceived left/right divide, doesn't it?

[FIAT1]

So far I'd been impressed with the restraint on this thread but the last few posts - which I've deleted - went off the deep end. CALM DOWN.

And no 'it was his fault' is not acceptable.

Cool,all good here.

[Rollo]

In 10 years, on average since it began, roughly 26% of all stocks listed on the Dow will havethrough mergers, bankruptcies, or capital rebuilds, be delisted.
In 20 years it sits at 46% and for the timeframe of "soviet steel" or 80 years, it's 98%.
The only listed stock on the Dow since it began was GE.

This suggests that the eventual course of most business is failure and that the system it lives in is irrelevant.

[markabilly]

Good article here about last night.


HURT: Obama the debater: Making Jimmy Carter look awesome - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/3/hurt-obama-debater-making-jimmy-carter-look-awesom/)


Romney's statements do put Ryan and a lot of the conservative ideas his party supports in a bad spot for the next debate, however. I'm not a fan of rope-a-dope since I think the President had plenty of ammo to really hit Romney on his past statements and what was said during the debate, but then I'm so tired of listening to Republicans on stage without someone on the spot to point our how wrong they are each time they open their mouth (kind of like we have here) that I was hoping for the debate to be an opportunity to see it in action.


The Vice Presidential debate will be broadcast on Comedy Central....lol Joe Biden will be there talking, it will be very comical. He is going to get smoked by Ryan bad!

You mean like Sarah Palin did four years ago? And the difference was.....................



Can Obama say....Owned ? LOL Romney was much better than Obama lastnight. Romney was much better prepared. Obama didnt respond to Mitt's remarks directed to him, instead he talked around them. Obama did need a teleprompter. He didnt know how to answer questions live without editing and liberal media favortism...lol He just stuttered around and when he couldnt think of something, he brings up his grandma again.....lol

Even CNN polls said Romney won the debate by a landslide...67 %.

Im sorry but Obama kept saying he had these plans to cut deficit, blah, blah, blah. Well, he has been in office for 4 years now and he has only increased it more than every other president combined. So much for his plan.... What a joke! It's hard to be in his shoes because saying what he thinks people want to hear but knowing they know the facts and thats the opposite of what he says. I find it hard to believe anything this guy says.

All I have to say is when Paul Ryan debates Joe Biden, that is going to be hilarious! Ryan will wipe the floor with Biden. If I was Biden I wouldnt show up...lol Biden is more of a joke than Obama.

DEBATES!!!!! What do these silly assed media circuses have to do with being president?????????Iran is building a bomb. Okay, let send our president out to debate their president and decide who wins..... :eek:

Just another example of the sound bite media circus that decides elections. Whose got the best talking head????? Should the best debater be the one that wins the job as president??? :rolleyes:




When the debate idea first started many years ago, I thought it was an excellent idea.


Now the more I see of the debates,
the less I see in them :(













No doubt Paul Ryan will justify his personal view that rape and incest are not reasons for a woman to have an abortion.

Hilarious, no?

Well, of course, rape is not a reason to get an abortion.

Cause as everyone knows, when it is a "legitimate rape", a woman can not conceive :rolleyes:

and the tea party keeps on teabaggin.....

[FIAT1]

Debeates are good and they serve as a reality check on the person, therefore we don't have to rely on" class warfare super- pac laying comercials" to tell us how to place our vote.President's enemy wasn't debate, it was his lack of knowledge and display of his distaste for capitalism and business. We did receive little good news after four years of devastation, that holiday part time t shirt sale type jobs have gone up and magically numbers are better one month before election. Not impressed. I think that president is very likeable guy and in his heart he means well, but it's very clear that he is in over his head when it come to knowledge of business and management skills required to govern.

[Mark]

Which is why in most governments the nitty gritty is left to people who do know what they are doing.

e.g. We have the civil service, who are experts at for example rail franchising... wait.. :s hock:

[Captain VXR]

aLsuhsm9j3w
Brilliant advert for Obama trashing trickle down ecomomics.

[Gregor-y]

Wackos come in all sizes and shapes. You would be in error to think that there aren't any on your (assumed from your comments) side. Also, do you blame that Congressman or the people who elected him?
Parties all over the world have wackos from remote areas with extreme positions that are allowed to participate in government because we get who is elected. But they usually serve on the back bench as a sure vote. I blame the Republican party leadership that put this guy on the Science Committee.

[Don Capps]

Given that I am out the door before 0500 each morning for work, I did not watch last week's debate. Over the weekend I did read a transcript of the debate which one could imagine might put a different spin on things. Reading the words of the debate, neither one really comes off that well, with Obama and Romney both leaving much to be desired. Basically, neither one seemed to help his cause very much, there being no end of gaps and blather in what both stated during the discussion. My impression was that it was generally a waste of time, neither one doing that well. I will say that it was interesting to notice that Romney is steering somewhat back towards the moderate end of things, but that also is more a matter of things being relative given how far to the right Romney has gone to embrace the current ideology of the GOP. Then again, some of responses from Obama regarding what Romney was saying did not seem very strong, often missing opportunities to refute the point and nail Romney to the mat.

Based on what I read, very difficult to impossible to support the ideas that Romney presented and the ways he would handle things. Then again, Obama did not give the type of responses that one would have expected, so can easily see why many give the win in the debate to Romney. Overall, very happy I missed the debate since it seemed be pretty much a snoozefest. That Romney would terminate Big Bird was the highpoint and the only memorable part of the debate says a lot.

Of course, reading the transcript is much different than watching the debate, rather akin to reading a screenplay versus what ends up on the screen. Or reading the book rather than watching the movie.

[anthonyvop]

Ah, yes, because a company either sinks or swims on the basis of its position on the perceived left/right divide, doesn't it?

Actually it does, A company that relies on Government supports to survive is in deep sh*t when those supports end. On the other hand a company that survives without looting from the taxpayer does much better and has a better chance of survival.

[Rollo]

Actually it does, A company that relies on Government supports to survive is in deep sh*t when those supports end. On the other hand a company that survives without looting from the taxpayer does much better and has a better chance of survival.

I'm sure that there is a statistical basis for this claim. Could you please show some workings or a link?

[Don Capps]

Actually it does, A company that relies on Government supports to survive is in deep sh*t when those supports end. On the other hand a company that survives without looting from the taxpayer does much better and has a better chance of survival.

Where do the defense contractors fit into this equation?

[janvanvurpa]

I'm sure that there is a statistical basis for this claim. Could you please show some workings or a link?


You ask him: why do every single company always dig/beg/connive/bribe/ governments at all level for exemptions/breaks/grants/subsidies/special treatments for ever new plant/expansion/reorganisation?

As some say: Socialisation of the risk/losses, Privatisation of the profits.

[anthonyvop]

I'm sure that there is a statistical basis for this claim. Could you please show some workings or a link?

Common sense. A company that has to rely on Government support for its very existence cannot be called successful by any stretch of the imagination. Unless you are a Kool-Aid drinker and consider acts like the national embarrassment that is GM a success.

[anthonyvop]

You ask him: why do every single company always dig/beg/connive/bribe/ governments at all level for exemptions/breaks/grants/subsidies/special treatments for ever new plant/expansion/reorganisation?

As some say: Socialisation of the risk/losses, Privatisation of the profits.

Every single one? Really? I call for Tax cuts but for everyone. I am quite vocal on calling for the abolition of the National Sales tax not just for me but for everyone.


Soooooooooooo....My very existence proves your statement FALSE

[anthonyvop]

Where do the defense contractors fit into this equation?


A company paid for a product or service does not apply. Getting a check for Bullets is the same as getting a check for paper clips.

[Malbec]

Actually it does, A company that relies on Government supports to survive is in deep sh*t when those supports end. On the other hand a company that survives without looting from the taxpayer does much better and has a better chance of survival.

Hmm really?

VW. 100% government owned and funded at its incept. After the war partly funded by the local state instead which still owns a significant stake in the company.

How is the VW group doing these days? Or Daimler Benz? How did Renault get to buy Nissan when 10 years before the latter boasted the former wouldn't be around for much longer? For state owned/funded companies I don't think their performance has been too shabby.

[Mark]

I find Americans constant reference to 'Kool-aid' rather tiring.

[Don Capps]

A company paid for a product or service does not apply. Getting a check for Bullets is the same as getting a check for paper clips.

Ah, this simply goes to show just how little you actually know about the defense industry and how defense contractors really operate.

[Don Capps]

I find Americans constant reference to 'Kool-aid' rather tiring.

However, it is also a very accurate shorthand means to indicate the extent to which most of the GOP has become something of a cult rather than a political party.

[Mark]

However, it is also a very accurate shorthand means to indicate the extent to which most of the GOP has become something of a cult rather than a political party.

I understand, I just think it's lazy - which shorthard is I suppose :)

[anthonyvop]

I find Americans constant reference to 'Kool-aid' rather tiring.

Actually the correct form is Flavor-Aide My bad.

[anthonyvop]

Hmm really?

VW. 100% government owned and funded at its incept. After the war partly funded by the local state instead which still owns a significant stake in the company.

How is the VW group doing these days? Or Daimler Benz? How did Renault get to buy Nissan when 10 years before the latter boasted the former wouldn't be around for much longer? For state owned/funded companies I don't think their performance has been too shabby.

Yes. I am well aware the VW was started by the NAZI's and then propped up as part of the Marshall Plan. But since then they have been a privately held company where they actully flourished.

[anthonyvop]

Ah, this simply goes to show just how little you actually know about the defense industry and how defense contractors really operate.

I know quite well how they operate. I was only referring to a straight Buy/Sell business deal. I am 100% against all subsidies of Tax breaks for any industry. Including defense industries.

[anthonyvop]

Just a quick reminder

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/383482_187676414690621_1769925050_n.jpg

[Don Capps]

I know quite well how they operate.

Really? From first hand experience or Faux News or PBS? Just curious, given that a "straight Buy/Sell business deal" can often be anything but that inside the Beltway.

Can I take it then that the sequestration that will/is expected to hit the DoD is not a problem on your part, given that much/most of it will affect mainly the defense contractors -- and their taxpayer-supported subsidies -- within the Beltway?

[Don Capps]

Actually the correct form is Flavor-Aide My bad.

It is my understanding that grape is, by far, the favorite flavor of Flavor-Aide among the GOP and those on the Right. Romney is said to several glasses a day, always the grape flavor. He credits it for helping get his mind "right."

[Rollo]

Common sense. A company that has to rely on Government support for its very existence cannot be called successful by any stretch of the imagination. Unless you are a Kool-Aid drinker and consider acts like the national embarrassment that is GM a success.

Remember:
Of the 100 largest industrial companies in 1912, by 1995, 29 had gone bankrupt, 48 disappeared (mergers, acquisitions and so on), and 52 survived, but only 19 remained in the top 100. Once you discount the large number of small companies that fail in their first few years, the average lifespan for small companies is similar to that of large firms - and most of them eventually fail.
- Excerpt from "Why Most Things Fail", Paul Ormerod (2005)
Summary - Why Most Things Fail: Evolution, Extinction and Economics - Paul Ormerod (http://www.squeezedbooks.com/articles/why-most-things-fail-evolution-extinction-and-economics.html)


This suggests that the eventual course of most business is failure and that the system it lives in is irrelevant.

Surely from GM's perspective a Chapter 11 reorganization is a better outcome than a Chapter 7 liquidation.
I think that under the parameters of what you laid out, GM is wildly successful. Unless you happen to consider bankruptcy and a failure to exist anymore a success.

It certainly does not prove the statement which I asked you to provide a link for:


On the other hand a company that survives without looting from the taxpayer does much better and has a better chance of survival.

Instead you cited:


Common sense.

I'm sorry, but common sense usually isn't either common or in this case as demonstrated by you, sense.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

[Gregor-y]

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein
How apropos.

[BDunnell]

One thing I find very sad about this thread is the depiction almost of 'two Americas', that represented by, for instance, Don Capps and that represented by anthonyvop.

[Rollo]

Every single one? Really? I call for Tax cuts but for everyone. I am quite vocal on calling for the abolition of the National Sales tax not just for me but for everyone.

Just a question. If you'd removing National Sales Tax, what would you replace the lost revenue with?

Taxation revenues as a percentage of GDP for FY2012 are expected to dip at less than 15%. That is the lowest level of taxation collected since 1949.

If the national debt stands at $16.009 Bn, and the Federal Receipts for FY2012 are expected to come in at $2.303 Bn, even if the interest rate was a paltry 1% and government spending was cut to Zero, the debt still wouldn't be paid of until mid-2019.
Basically it's a mathematical impossibility to close the either the deficit or cut the debt by spending cuts alone. Both spending cuts and tax increases are inevitable in any realistic scenario.

[Alexamateo]

I don't know what Anthony is referring to, There is no National Sales Tax in the USA. Most states do charge sales tax, but that is state revenue and at least 2 states that I know of have 0% sales tax.

[Starter]

One thing I find very sad about this thread is the depiction almost of 'two Americas', that represented by, for instance, Don Capps and that represented by anthonyvop.
A sad misrepresentation. America is much more diverse than that. Don't believe what you see in the media. The flacks on both sides try and put that across to force people to pick sides.

[FIAT1]

One thing I find very sad about this thread is the depiction almost of 'two Americas', that represented by, for instance, Don Capps and that represented by anthonyvop.

I think you are completely wrong in your assessment. Lively conversation with a passion for your beliefs is core of this great democracy, and is a good thing. Come January we will get in line and continue to do our best for ourselves and the country as we always do.

[BDunnell]

I think you are completely wrong in your assessment. Lively conversation with a passion for your beliefs is core of this great democracy, and is a good thing. Come January we will get in line and continue to do our best for ourselves and the country as we always do.

I think you misunderstand me slightly. I'm saying that, on the one hand, we see here a part of the population that revels in education and learning, and on the other a section that, to put it bluntly, doesn't.

[Don Capps]

I think you are completely wrong in your assessment. Lively conversation with a passion for your beliefs is core of this great democracy, and is a good thing. Come January we will get in line and continue to do our best for ourselves and the country as we always do.

This is almost exactly what I was going to write. We hold far more in common, Anthony and I for instance, than there are differences that divide us. Elections tend to raise the tempo and fever of discussion, but then, being the pramatic people that we tend to be, we sort things and continue to march. Whether conservative, liberal or moderate politically, that is often irrelevant when it comes to living our lives and the interacting with our friends and neighbors. No, there is not one America for Anthony and another for me, we are both Americans and have that bond. While we do squabble, fuss, and occasionally fume and feud among ourselves, when the dust settles, as was pointed out, we get on with life.

That are people who I care for dearly who have political ideas completely at odds with mine, but that is also irrelevant. We have other, shared interests that are equally or more important. In addition, there is far more diversity in the US than is often appreciated, but that diversity is not the same as divisiveness. We get along far better than people think or would expect.

That political campaigns now seem to last forever tends to lead, I think, to what can only be termed "Campaign Fatigue." I know that I certainly have it.

[janvanvurpa]

I don't know what Anthony is referring to, There is no National Sales Tax in the USA. Most states do charge sales tax, but that is state revenue and at least 2 states that I know of have 0% sales tax.


What do you mean? In all the years I have read this stuff from Vop, if he asserted it, that's enough..
So if you and all the rest of us don't think we have a National Sales Tax, we're just not looking hard enough.
Look harder!

[Roamy]

This is almost exactly what I was going to write. We hold far more in common, Anthony and I for instance, than there are differences that divide us. Elections tend to raise the tempo and fever of discussion, but then, being the pramatic people that we tend to be, we sort things and continue to march. Whether conservative, liberal or moderate politically, that is often irrelevant when it comes to living our lives and the interacting with our friends and neighbors. No, there is not one America for Anthony and another for me, we are both Americans and have that bond. While we do squabble, fuss, and occasionally fume and feud among ourselves, when the dust settles, as was pointed out, we get on with life.

That are people who I care for dearly who have political ideas completely at odds with mine, but that is also irrelevant. We have other, shared interests that are equally or more important. In addition, there is far more diversity in the US than is often appreciated, but that diversity is not the same as divisiveness. We get along far better than people think or would expect.

That political campaigns now seem to last forever tends to lead, I think, to what can only be termed "Campaign Fatigue." I know that I certainly have it.

I think the division between the "Haves" and "Havenots" ie republicans and democrats is becoming more intense and violent. A cure for this is needed NOW and not after blood spills. Lining up together in Jan. is just not happening and fueled by the media will probably even get worse

[BDunnell]

This is almost exactly what I was going to write. We hold far more in common, Anthony and I for instance, than there are differences that divide us. Elections tend to raise the tempo and fever of discussion, but then, being the pramatic people that we tend to be, we sort things and continue to march. Whether conservative, liberal or moderate politically, that is often irrelevant when it comes to living our lives and the interacting with our friends and neighbors. No, there is not one America for Anthony and another for me, we are both Americans and have that bond. While we do squabble, fuss, and occasionally fume and feud among ourselves, when the dust settles, as was pointed out, we get on with life.

All very fair points, but does not the specific educational divide I cited concern you?

[janvanvurpa]

Investigative journalism worth reading, from the man who broke and detailed the illegal voter suppression by BushCo pupet Anne Harris, the notorious Secretary of State in Florida whose maneuvers systematically eliminated 10s of thousands of (gasp) minority votes in 2000. It continues apace, and naturally its almost all Republicans leading the frenzy to deny their fellow citizens their right to vote:
(quoted at lenght since you can't dig this up easily)


Latinos–too lazy to vote?
Thursday, October 11, 2012
by Greg Palast for Utne Reader



It’s lookin’ bad for the old white guys. Eleven million Hispanic citizens remain unregistered, Americans all, and 15 million kids between the ages of 18 and 24 who can’t be pried away from Facebook long enough to register—at least so the tally of vote registries say.


Now, add to that 16 million ex-cons who can vote but think they can’t. (It’s only in three states in Old Dixie where those who’ve served felony sentences are barred from voting.)


All these un-voters, if they suddenly registered, could rock the planet.

You think the Old World Order hasn’t thought of that?


So, then, how do they stop Americans from taking over America? Easy: first, make registering voters a crime.


In a swing state like Florida with its huge new Hispanic population (no, not Cubans, Puerto Ricans), you make it illegal to register citizens at welfare offices, churches, or voter-registration drive meetings. (Suggestion: sneak voter registration forms into handgun barrels. Guns are allowed at all these locations.)


Second, make registering voters as risky as a derivative from JPMorgan. In Florida (I love using Florida for vote suppression examples, don’t you?), Governor Jeb Bush made it a crime, with vicious fines, to turn in voter forms more than forty-eight hours after they were gathered, or with itty- bitty errors in them. He successfully put the League of Women Voters out of the registration business until June 2012 when a judge enjoined Florida from sentencing registrars to hard time. But with ACORN’s corpse still fresh, the League and others remain fearful of going into the streets of Miami with clipboards.


Still, why is the Hispanic voter registration rate so absolutely dismal?


According to the New York Times, it’s first and foremost the Latinos’ “entrenched pattern of nonparticipation.” In other words, they’re just lazy, don’t give a taco, and treasure their siesta more than their vote. Nowhere in the long, front-page article does the Times writer veer from the racial profile of Chicanos as unengaged if not hostile to registering to vote.


If the Times checked the stats instead of relying on stereotypes from an old Cantinflas movie, it could have found from the detailed survey by the US Census Bureau that white voters are one-third more likely than Hispanic voters to say they don’t register because of disinterest.

This is an excerpt from Greg Palast's brand new book: 

Billionaires & Ballot Bandits: How to Steal an Election in 9 Easy Steps



Indeed, the statistical survey shows Hispanics the most committed of any ethnic group to attempting to register. While the Times article tediously quotes those Hispanics who say their vote won’t make a difference, the Census shows that whites express that view twice as frequently as Hispanics.

The biggest problem identified by Hispanic citizens themselves in registering is “difficulty in English.” D’oh! The Times no piense de eso, los chingates.


But there’s another explanation for the drop in Hispanic voter registration: Hispanics do register, by the millions—only to have their registration forms rejected, or, if they sneak onto the rolls, have their names purged. And The Times said nothing about the Purge’n General, Donetta Davidson, who removed one in five voters from the registry when she was Colorado’s Secretary of State.



The Times, if their reporters weren’t too lazy to check the facts, would find out that the majority of registration forms submitted by legal voters of color in California had been rejected.

For several years, Hispanics have filled out the forms and the state has thrown them out.


It was the Republican Secretary of State Bruce McPherson who rejected nearly half (42 percent) of new registrations out of hand in California, over fourteen thousand voters in LA County alone. (He didn’t, by the way, bother to tell the voters. He wanted to make it a surprise on Election Day.)



Only the County of Los Angeles questioned this alleged avalanche of phony voters. The county called each rejected voter and every one reached was in fact legit, but their names were input wrong by the state clerks or simply rejected as “suspicious” to the GOP official. (NB: Asians vote Democratic, and their registration rates are worse than for Hispanics.)



And that’s yet another way to kill your registration: about 2.2 million names have been misspelled or contain other errors made by government clerks. McPherson’s replacement Bowen told me that they couldn’t handle the hyphenated and unfamiliar spellings of new voters; but the GOP officials tagged clerical errors of the state as “fraud” by voters.



When the voters arrive, in most cases they’ll be told, “Tough luck, Chuck!” or handed a provisional placebo ballot.


And as California goes, so goes the nation. Several states now require that proof of citizenship be mailed in with the form. Dear reader, do you have proof of citizenship that matches your registration name, signature, and address?


It’s crazy, but only two states, Maine and Michigan, have more than 50 percent of eligible Hispanic citizens registered. Michigan’s former Governor Jennifer Granholm told me that was only possible because she teamed with the NAACP to fight the Republicans’ creepy purge campaign.


Yes, there are fewer Hispanics and African Americans on voter rolls than in 2008, but it’s not for lack of trying. With 20 million registrations purged each year under the Help America Vote Act, plus the massive rejections, plus the state errors, it’s surprising that there are any voters of color left at all.


Those who attempt to register get defeated in an impossible game of chutes-and-ladders, a maze with trap doors and lions and tigers and bears. In the swing state of Indiana, new ID laws have kept three out of four Hispanic citizens from registering.



And despite the federal law requiring states to make voter registration forms available at government offices, in some states like Florida, the papers have been yanked from welfare offices and outlawed in high schools.


It’s worked damn well too. The number of voting citizens with incomes less than $15,000 has actually declined. Mission Accomplished! In Florida, registration is down by eighty-one thousand in May 2011 compared to May 2008.


So get ready for the bottom line: the number of black and Hispanic registered voters in the USA has fallen radically since 2008, by two million in these four years.



The Obama campaign, squeamish about making race an issue, is literally in denial—casting doubt on the US Census registry figures—rather than confronting the cybernetic resurrection of Jim (and José) Crow.


And that’s why, by the way, I’m telling you to steal back your vote yourself. Relying on political parties didn’t work for Martin Luther King, and he won a Nobel Prize. You have to defend yourself, not wait for a politician to protect you. (Self-defense weaponry downloaded free at BallotBandits.org (http://gregpalast.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?u=33e4ec877eed6a43863a4a92e&id=90e41022e7&e=2ba792e670): 7 Ways to Beat the Ballot Bandits and resource groups.)


But let’s consider the strange notion that Hispanic voter registration is falling because the illegal aliens on the voter rolls are running back over the border, back to Mexico.


In the swing state of Arizona, that is the official line. (Warning: while other states have official flowers, Arizona has official delusions. It’s the heat.) Anyway, about a hundred thousand Hispanics have had their names removed from the voter rolls in Arizona, and Rolling Stone thought I should go catch a couple of these aliens in the act of voting.

Read the rest in Billionaires & Ballot Bandits (http://gregpalast.us4.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=33e4ec877eed6a43863a4a92e&id=ab4bd9b888&e=2ba792e670).

[janvanvurpa]

RE above ^
This then is one difference between those people who belive they are Capital R right....because they belive that Gawd talks directly to them, anything they decide on a whim to do is blessed, so screw you if you aren't "them"..

Decent people, like most people I know, would never consider underhanded methods to eliminate somebodys vote.
Some, like oh say ME! have lived and worked in other democratic systems which extended the vote to all legal resident TAXPAYERS including ME!, a foreign worker, because those silly Swedes thought that if they tax somebody it is only fair that they be given some say in the way their taxes they are compelled to pay is spent..and so we say, you're here paying taxes? You get to vote.

What a novel concept. :eek:

[Starter]

All very fair points, but does not the specific educational divide I cited concern you?
I believe you are confusing education, in the formal sense, with effective thought. One does not need a university degree in order to reason things out. And there are other educational opportunities than formal schooling. It has much more to do with having an open mind. I hasten to note here that "an open mind" does not mean that you will come down on a given side - people are different and reasonable people can have very different opinions.

A special complement to Don Capps, back in post #583 for a nicely thought out and worded post - FIAT1 too. America is one country. We may beat the crap out of each other in election cycles, but when the ballots have been counted we get back to business.

[BDunnell]

I believe you are confusing education, in the formal sense, with effective thought. One does not need a university degree in order to reason things out. And there are other educational opportunities than formal schooling. It has much more to do with having an open mind. I hasten to note here that "an open mind" does not mean that you will come down on a given side - people are different and reasonable people can have very different opinions.

No, I'm not confusing anything. Surely you must see the two sides of the coin — those who revel in knowledge and learning, and those who eschew it in favour of, as we see here, Fox News and images downloaded from the web? I'm making no point beyond that.



A special complement to Don Capps, back in post #583 for a nicely thought out and worded post - FIAT1 too. America is one country. We may beat the crap out of each other in election cycles, but when the ballots have been counted we get back to business.

Just like any other country, then.

[Starter]

No, I'm not confusing anything. Surely you must see the two sides of the coin — those who revel in knowledge and learning, and those who eschew it in favour of, as we see here, Fox News and images downloaded from the web? I'm making no point beyond that.
Fox news is not a bad thing. Much of the content is neutral. (Notice I didn't say "all" or "most".) It provides needed balance with the other main news outlets - ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS - which all lean somewhat to the left. But Fox is just like these other four networks, in that you can't just buy into it as your only source of information. Take all of them, Fox included, with a grain of salt.




Just like any other country, then.
Now THAT is funny.

[BDunnell]

Take all of them, Fox included, with a grain of salt.

I need no lectures on this subject, thank you.



Now THAT is funny.

Really? Maybe I should have added some sort of caveat such as 'democratic country'.

[Starter]

Really? Maybe I should have added some sort of caveat such as 'democratic country'.

:up:

[Rollo]

I though that the overall tone of the Vice-Presidential debate was far more civilised than the Presidential one. That's probably because the role of Vice-President is far less stressful, though some commentators are trying to pin this on Jim Lehrer.

Basically as far as I can gather, the Vice-President only has three jobs:
1. Take over if the President dies, or is in some other way unable to serve
2. Vote in a deadlock in the Senate
3. Preside over the Electoral College votes

Considering that most presidents (36/44) survive their full term, you have a roughly 80% chance of never having to fulfill No.1 on the job description; and heck, I could do numbers 2 and 3.

[FIAT1]

I though that the overall tone of the Vice-Presidential debate was far more civilised than the Presidential one. That's probably because the role of Vice-President is far less stressful, though some commentators are trying to pin this on Jim Lehrer.

Basically as far as I can gather, the Vice-President only has three jobs:
1. Take over if the President dies, or is in some other way unable to serve
2. Vote in a deadlock in the Senate
3. Preside over the Electoral College votes

Considering that most presidents (36/44) survive their full term, you have a roughly 80% chance of never having to fulfill No.1 on the job description; and heck, I could do numbers 2 and 3.

4.Attend a funeral of other leaders.

I think it was ok debeate,much of the same slogans,VP needed to push and young congressman held his own against seasoned veteran, and VP showcased great dental work. Looks like politicians have a good dental insurance coverage.Nothing earth shaking really.
.

[DanicaFan]

Joe Biden was worse than I thought he would be. He is clearly making a name for himself and the administration and its not a good one. He is being dubbed "The Joker"...lol

What Biden did lastnight was completely unprofessional. He laughed, smirked, made cheap comments and constantly interrupted Paul Ryan. He spat out lies, deceivement, and changed topics to get off of the cold hard truth. He was very rude to both Ryan and the moderator. He clearly showed that he does not want to work with Republicans on anything.

The issues being discussed were very important but yet he can keep a smirk on his face and laugh throughout the whole thing. Pretty arrogant and ignorant to do that to America. He kept talking about helping middle class, well, his administration has had 4 years to help and they have done nothing but make it worse. He is the same as Obama, I dont believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

Ryan showed much more class and restraint and America saw that. I am beginning to think Biden is Romney's best political ally. With Biden saying things that he does and acts the way he does, it only helps Romney get more votes.

But I guess as Biden saw it, he knows thier administration is flawed, thier policies failed, and he has nothing to stand on. So, he will just go out and attack, be rude, and try to paint a bad picture of the opponents who will actually do good for America.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I think you misunderstand me slightly. I'm saying that, on the one hand, we see here a part of the population that revels in education and learning, and on the other a section that, to put it bluntly, doesn't.

Your implying that education and learning is normally associated with certain political views is questionable, to say the least.

[BDunnell]

Your implying that education and learning is normally associated with certain political views is questionable, to say the least.

Nowhere in my statement did I refer to this having anything to do with political views at all. It wasn't implied and it isn't meant.

[janvanvurpa]

I need no lectures on this subject, thank you.



Really? Maybe I should have added some sort of caveat such as 'democratic country'.

Ah but there you risk the tired non-sequitor from "the usual suspects' that " Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".

And if I hear that one more time I will blow my brains out.

[janvanvurpa]

Nowhere in my statement did I refer to this having anything to do with political views at all. It wasn't implied and it isn't meant.


Oi, mate, you're in a minefield now....there are as some here have pointed out, locally understood implied meanings in words and concepts, and you were unintentionally edging toward the "dividing line'...as understood and perpetuated by the side "that doesn't".

To "them", it does.

[janvanvurpa]

Your implying that education and learning is normally associated with certain political views is questionable, to say the least.

Tavarich Rudski, in some subtle ways, it is. What parties concerned with holding static, or worse, nostalgic retrograde policies, one could say that the point for "those people' is not education per se, eg "learning MORE, incorporation ( in the original sense in-corpus---to take the new ideas "into the body") of what you have learned to synthesize new ideas, new possible solutions"
but rather in accumulation of rhetorical ammunition to rationalise the "return to the glory days of......"


So in some ways education is linked to some political views.

[anthonyvop]

Ah but there you risk the tired non-sequitor from "the usual suspects' that " Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".

And if I hear that one more time I will blow my brains out.

" Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".
" Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".
" Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".
" Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".
" Merikuh ain't a Democracy, itssa Respublik".




Did it work? :)

[anthonyvop]

Tavarich Rudski, in some subtle ways, it is. What parties concerned with holding static, or worse, nostalgic retrograde policies, one could say that the point for "those people' is not education per se, eg "learning MORE, incorporation ( in the original sense in-corpus---to take the new ideas "into the body") of what you have learned to synthesize new ideas, new possible solutions"
but rather in accumulation of rhetorical ammunition to rationalise the "return to the glory days of......"


So in some ways education is linked to some political views.

One can argue that with the crash in the American educational system brought about by liberal policies led directly to the entitlement class.

Then you can also look at many countries with poorer educational systems in which continually vote in people who are destructive to their very nation. There are many examples of this in Latin America such as Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia compared to a nation with an excellent educational system like Chile.

[gloomyDAY]

One can argue that with the crash in the American educational system brought about by liberal policies led directly to the entitlement class.No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 was a half-brained policy signed into law by whom? Oh, a half-brained President named Bush. If a public school does not achieve a certain level of success on a test, then their school funding is taken. So what have the teachers done? Teachers have forgone the entire learning process and are strictly teaching how to beat a test, and in worse cases teachers have been caught cheating to raise their kids' scores on these tests!

What's worse now is that the GOP and Christian right is desperately trying to pull public funds into private schools, so kids can get brainwashed about invisible fairies in the sky. This is now under the guise of "voucher programs," but it has had a funny backlash.

Louisiana has a voucher program that now allows public funds to go to private religious schools. The problem is that the Christian's forgot that they're not the only religion in America, so now there are going to be Islamic schools being funded via public tax dollars. Now the Christians are pissed off because they believe that their religion is the only "right" one, which it isn't because all religions are a money-making hoax, and Islamic schools are now going to be targeted to make sure radical Islamists aren't bred in America.

You'd think Louisiana's citizens would have had the foresight to this little conundrum, but it's now an un-Constitutional law (separation of church and state) that's going to be challenged in the near future.

[gloomyDAY]

The gun nuts are out in full swing over these elections.

GOP zealot fired a shot into Obama's campaign office in Colorado. (http://www.denverpost.com/obama/ci_21761706/shot-fired-at-obama-campaign-headquarters-denver)

Odd. Wasn't there just a massive shooting in CO recently?

[janvanvurpa]

No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 was a half-brained policy signed into law by whom? Oh, a half-brained President named Bush. If a public school does not achieve a certain level of success on a test, then their school funding is taken. So what have the teachers done? Teachers have forgone the entire learning process and are strictly teaching how to beat a test, and in worse cases teachers have been caught cheating to raise their kids' scores on these tests!

What's worse now is that the GOP and Christian right is desperately trying to pull public funds into private schools, so kids can get brainwashed about invisible fairies in the sky. This is now under the guise of "voucher programs," but it has had a funny backlash.

Louisiana has a voucher program that now allows public funds to go to private religious schools. The problem is that the Christian's forgot that they're not the only religion in America, so now there are going to be Islamic schools being funded via public tax dollars. Now the Christians are pissed off because they believe that their religion is the only "right" one, which it isn't because all religions are a money-making hoax, and Islamic schools are now going to be targeted to make sure radical Islamists aren't bred in America.

You'd think Louisiana's citizens would have had the foresight to this little conundrum, but it's now an un-Constitutional law (separation of church and state) that's going to be challenged in the near future.


Odd you should mention Lousy-anny and unintended consequences.. Remember Willard schmoozing with his peers at that $50,000 a plate dinner where he was ranting about those horrible people that pay less taxes than he does? The 47% he mentioned with such contempt? The entitlement people..

No place in the country matches all those thing better than Lousy-Anna... And they've voted solid Republigoon since gawd knows when......decades...


And you're spot on about the Private school thing... Here in my fair state, we'll be voting for
"Charter" schools in November... I say it's intentionally the thin edge of the wedge for those religious kooks who bitch piteously about "Welfare Cadillac driver filling their SUV with lobsters and steak" who want to have all of us pay so the can teach their little--in my opinion---mentally abused---childred that the earth is 6437 years old and Adam sat around blissed out with the dinosaurs.

Do you remember the whole discovery of the real creator of the universe? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
That was a response to a similarly myopic Kansas law regarding "equal time for creationsism and Intel-u-gunt Deesign"

What are we supposed to do?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

[Mark]

I personally believe that religion has no place in schools. It's a big issue in the UK too.

[Starter]

I personally believe that religion has no place in schools. It's a big issue in the UK too.
Agree with that 100%.

[Gregor-y]

But every time I watch Treme New Orleans looks so, well, interesting.

[Captain VXR]

RoboRomney (http://www.roboromney.com/)
Proof that Romney will say anything to get elected.

[janvanvurpa]

RoboRomney (http://www.roboromney.com/)
Proof that Romney will say anything to get elected.

Where's the liberal press?

[Rollo]

One can argue that with the crash in the American educational system brought about by liberal policies led directly to the entitlement class.

"In the long run it is only to the man of morality that wealth comes... We, like the Psalmists, occasionally see the wicked prosper, but only occasionally. Godliness is in league with riches.”
- William Lawrence, 1891 (attributed)

JP Morgan served as the Treasurer to Lawrence's church pension fund; William Lawrence was referred to as "The Banker Bishop.

I suppose that you could argue that the "crash in the American educational system" "directly to the entitlement class" but arguments against the so called "idle rich" had been made as far back as the 1880s when there wasn't even a national educational system.

I dismiss your argument as not being grounded in historical fact. "The entitlement class" has always been with us, both at the very richest and the very poorest of society and is a function of everyone acting out of self-interest.

[Starter]

"In the long run it is only to the man of morality that wealth comes... We, like the Psalmists, occasionally see the wicked prosper, but only occasionally. Godliness is in league with riches.”
- William Lawrence, 1891 (attributed)

JP Morgan served as the Treasurer to Lawrence's church pension fund; William Lawrence was referred to as "The Banker Bishop.

I suppose that you could argue that the "crash in the American educational system" "directly to the entitlement class" but arguments against the so called "idle rich" had been made as far back as the 1880s when there wasn't even a national educational system.

I dismiss your argument as not being grounded in historical fact. "The entitlement class" has always been with us, both at the very richest and the very poorest of society and is a function of everyone acting out of self-interest.
True. The "idle rich" have been around almost forever. But I think you will find that those people are the second, third or more generations. The first generation weren't idle as they were the ones who worked to acquire the riches. In many cases that's true of later descendants too. Sooner or later though someone comes along and says " I've got it made, I don't have to work. The same happens at the bottom too. Some are always lazy and/or unmotivated. Fortunately those people are in the minority. Otherwise we'd still be in the stone age.

[janvanvurpa]

I dismiss your argument as not being grounded in historical fact. "The entitlement class" has always been with us, both at the very richest and the very poorest of society and is a function of everyone acting out of self-interest.

Formerly the only people that felt "entitled" were the extreme few, then-times 1% whose Daddies owned everything.

One could argue that once the progressive side in America managed to pass enough laws to benefit everybody and the famous "American middle class" grew to be the norm everywhere, and 80% owned something, and managed some education, and transformed the country, they felt a right of ownership in what they had built, or "entitlement" in other words..

But we know this is yet another code-word that side loves to use to draw in the gullible and distract them: by pointing out a few poor, and powerless and you know those _____________ (fill in the blank with the group you hate-du-jour), they hope to distract people from their actions which the record shows, which countless graphs show, are intended to enrich and further gorge the class originally called "the entitlement class"

Guys like Willard Romney whose daddy ran a business making things.
G.W. Bush, whose Daddy and Granddaddies ran business pumping a real substance out of the ground

Indeed the eminently readable American JK Galbraith who in the 50s wrote such classics as "The Affluent Society" and "the New Industrial State", by the 90s wrote a book about this generation of pampered, useless, airheaded, greedy twerps called "The Culture of Contentment"

The Culture of Contentment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Contentment)

The Culture of Contentment is an essay by economist John K. Galbraith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Galbraith), analyzing the situation of the Western industrial world, which was first published in 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houghton_Mifflin_Harcourt).
Prof Galbraith traces the growth of a stultifying (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humiliation) contentment in the western industrial world represented by the G7 group of countries. He pays particular attention to the self serving economic comfort achieved by the fortunate and politically dominant community and contrasts this to the condition of the underclass which he sees as being for the first time in these countries stalled in poverty.



Any man that has such an vast array of pthy quotes is OK in my book:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
"There's no question that this is a time when corporations have taken over the basic process of governing." in a PBS television interview (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/jan-june05/galbraith_5-24.html) on The Newshour shortly before his death.

[FIAT1]

Yep, same boring drum of old liberal tune blaming rich guy for my misery because my party faitful told me so. Yep i want that money that his father or family made by working hard and left him. Some people live in dissolution that if you drive a nice car ,have nice home and own the business life is easy and enjoyable, therefore more tax is the answer to make everyone pay fair share .Every time owner of small business is forced to pay more, he needs to cut somewhere else, and is always employee who just want a job with benefits, that pays the piper .Why not give incentive to those who can and know how to expend their buisness here ,and employ 23 mil therefore they can aford nice home ,good school and open new buisness.

[Starter]

Yep, same boring drum of old liberal tune blaming rich guy for my misery because my party faitful told me so. Yep i want that money that his father or family made by working hard and left him. Some people live in dissolution that if you drive a nice car ,have nice home and own the business life is easy and enjoyable, therefore more tax is the answer to make everyone pay fair share .Every time owner of small business is forced to pay more, he needs to cut somewhere else, and is always employee who just want a job with benefits, that pays the piper .Why not give incentive to those who can and know how to expend their buisness here ,and employ 23 mil therefore they can aford nice home ,good school and open new buisness.
An interesting question for everyone. Define what "fair share" means in the context of a discussion on taxes.

I'll start with an example:
Romney at an income of, oh say, ten million a year and rate of 14% 10,000,000 x 14% = $1,400,000.
Joe Blow at income of, lets say, 50,000 a year and tax rate of 20%. 50,000 x 20% = $10,000.
In this case, Romney would pay 28 times in taxes what Joe MAKES in a year.

Who exactly is paying their fair share?

[Mark]

Joe.

[FIAT1]

Joe.

Not sure .Example:Other type of Joe is working two jobs and overtime for years. He is paying 30% taxes and after 20 years of sacrifise he invests his savings or opens the buisness, and is taxed again 14% on his hard earn money and work. Everyone likes to see 14%,but is not fair assessment . I don't know who is paying more.

[donKey jote]

Joe, specially if the $50,000 also includes all his offshore "capital gains income" :bandit: :p

[Starter]

Joe.
OK. In this case how much does Romney have to pay to get to his "fair share"?

[Mark]

20%

[Starter]

20%
A very reasonable answer. I'll buy that assuming we over here close all tax breaks and loopholes so it's a level playing field for all. Hmm, I think we just arrived at the "Flat Tax".

[FIAT1]

20%

You can tax everyone 50% or more and it would solve nothing until you stop the waste, and create environment where business can stay in the country, flourish and have people working. Playing robin hood is good rhetoric to get a vote ,but after you rob peter to pay paul than what? Direction of the country have to be to encourage investment and developent to stay here and move economy.People wan't good jobs and Im afraid gifted sandwich is not good enough anymore.

[Mark]

20% because that's the example you gave. I think it's fair to say that if you are wealthy then the percentage of your income collected as tax should be at least the same proportion as anyone earning less than you. This is how a progressive system works.

[janvanvurpa]

Yep, same boring drum of old liberal tune blaming rich guy for my misery because my party faitful told me so. Yep i want that money that his father or family made by working hard and left him. Some people live in dissolution that if you drive a nice car ,have nice home and own the business life is easy and enjoyable, therefore more tax is the answer to make everyone pay fair share .Every time owner of small business is forced to pay more, he needs to cut somewhere else, and is always employee who just want a job with benefits, that pays the piper .Why not give incentive to those who can and know how to expend their buisness here ,and employ 23 mil therefore they can aford nice home ,good school and open new buisness.

Fiat1--you offend with your massive obtuseness---I did not blame anybody---that is putting words to my keys or whatever---it is a lie that I blamed anybody--it is a lie that I used "the same old liberal tune".
Those lies are offensive and harassing.

The rest is the usual incomprehensible mish-mash.
Stop with the offensive false attributions.

In case you're curious---which I doubt---- I described something. Completely neutrally and cited further references.

[Rollo]

An interesting question for everyone. Define what "fair share" means in the context of a discussion on taxes.

I'll start with an example:
Romney at an income of, oh say, ten million a year and rate of 14% 10,000,000 x 14% = $1,400,000.
Joe Blow at income of, lets say, 50,000 a year and tax rate of 20%. 50,000 x 20% = $10,000.
In this case, Romney would pay 28 times in taxes what Joe MAKES in a year.

Who exactly is paying their fair share?

There are several things to take note of in your little example:

1. Joe Blow at income 50,000 a year is in all likelyhood deriving his entire income from wages. This means to say that he has personally "worked" for his money. Whereas Romney at an income of ten million a year is more likely to have derived the vast bulk of his income from dividends, interest, etc. The generation of that income (since all income is essentially derived from real work and the production of goods and services), has been been a deduction for the firms that paid the wages but taxed in the hands of those that received it.
Fairness would suggest that the taxation rate on the income from non-personal sources should either equal or above that of the taxation rate on the income in the hands who actually performed real work in generating that income; in this case which Romney did not.

2. If things like the Department of Defence are seen as a collective insurance system, then the stability of the economy should also be seen as a collective insurance system. People who benefit the most from the economy's stability, should therefore be liable for the greatest proportion of premium because they derive the greatest benefit from the stability of the economy.
If we take an example of equivalency, should a person driving a $10,000,000, gold plated, Bugatti Veyron pay a higher insurance premium than a person driving an Opel Insignia?

3. People on lower incomes have a higher marginal propensity to consume. Their incomes are already more likely to be directed to private firms through retail spending. By giving people on lower incomes a concession, the economy is effectively permanently stimulated.
As incomes increase, the marginal utility of money decreases along with the marginal propensity to consume. Because the marginal utility of money decreases the actual burden of taxation is less as incomes increase.

4. Due to economies of scale, the larger an investment is the higher the likely return on that investment. Since governmental policy is largely shaped by either trying to attract investment or through forces to do with political donations, it follows that the wealthiest people in society also have the greatest degree in shaping governmental policy.
I ask you, in this example, which of these two people is more likely to actually shape government policy or lobby government officials to change governmental policy?


OK. In this case how much does Romney have to pay to get to his "fair share"?

Good question. Please tell me more about your theoretical economy so that I can play with some actual numbers.

[janvanvurpa]

What's an Opel Insignia?
I know the Ascona and Manta A series, and have built a good hot motor for the only Ascona B in USA, and supplied gear sets from Tran-X to several guys, and of course suspension, and I'm familiar with the Ascona and Manta 400s---great cars!
I even know fairly well just how nice the Kadett GSI and Astre GTE with the marvelously versatile XE engine, but never even heard of an Opel Insignia?
What class do they run in?

Re above excellent post:

I am just a poor old man, I've no time for law-breakers. My legs are gray, my ears are gnarled, my eyes are old and bent ... ....
And I seem to remember the so called Conservatives alleging that the reason we give lower tax percentage to the ultra-rich is
because they "are the job creators"....but being old and gnarled and gray I seem to recall a time when the ON PAPER
tax rates for uber-rich and corporations was far far higher....it's thrown about that it was "90%".
Of course that was after all the myriad of deductions....but it seems that during that time investments in plant, and machinery, and Reasearch
was at equally high levels, all those things being expenses and just like the chrome-moly steel and 6061 aluminum
and seals and springs and fuel I buy to make my Soooper Bitchin Rally Suspension, they are a "cost of doing business', and reduce my tax liability to near zero,
just as most corporations paid nothing---or as Exxon and many others now, generated refunds...

The result seemed to have been huge reduction in the unit cost through massively improved production efficiency.

So it seems that there is a precedent for higher tax on unearned income,ie dividends, stocks, wheeler-dealer type schemes that are not in any way productive.

Or, was the phenomenal growth in USA post WWII just an abbe ration?

[FIAT1]

Fiat1--you offend with your massive obtuseness---I did not blame anybody---that is putting words to my keys or whatever---it is a lie that I blamed anybody--it is a lie that I used "the same old liberal tune".
Those lies are offensive and harassing.

The rest is the usual incomprehensible mish-mash.
Stop with the offensive false attributions.

In case you're curious---which I doubt---- I described something. Completely neutrally and cited further references.

Sorry to disappoint and I know you can't resist ,but reply was not meant for you. Have a great day!

[janvanvurpa]

Sorry to disappoint and I know you can't resist ,but reply was not meant for you. Have a great day!

Once again, a reply that has nothing to do with what is written, what is quoted..

Why do you come and disrupt conversations if you aren't goping to do anything other than post random, confused postings?

[FIAT1]

20% because that's the example you gave. I think it's fair to say that if you are wealthy then the percentage of your income collected as tax should be at least the same proportion as anyone earning less than you. This is how a progressive system works.

I wish things were that simple. Btw,is Europe example of how progressive system works?

[FIAT1]

Once again, a reply that has nothing to do with what is written, what is quoted..

Why do you come and disrupt conversations if you aren't goping to do anything other than post random, confused postings?

Once again, I wish you all the best! Not interested! Good day!

[Rollo]

I wish things were that simple. Btw, is Europe example of how progressive system works?

No.

Europe is a continent.

The European Union on the other hand is made up of 27 member states and 17 of those use the common currency. Neither the continent of Europe nor the European Union impose income tax and neither of those things are sovereign entities.

Europe is not example of how progressive system works; just like North America is not an example of how gravity works just because it happens to be a continent on Earth.

[FIAT1]

No.

Europe is a continent.

The European Union on the other hand is made up of 27 member states and 17 of those use the common currency. Neither the continent of Europe nor the European Union impose income tax and neither of those things are sovereign entities.

Europe is not example of how progressive system works; just like North America is not an example of how gravity works just because it happens to be a continent on Earth.

I beg your pardon,I did not know that. I'm afraid that lecturers from other lands don't see that member states of the continent,union or whatever is the name now days ,are bankrupt with progressive way of life. No need to impose income tax when big daddy is watching and protecting with same dime that this election is all about. Furthermore ,when it comes to how gravity works I think we figured out pretty good over here.

[Mark]

Sorry but you are generalising again. You do understand that Europe is composed of many different countries, all with different tax and social policy, right? Do you care to expand on your point, or shall I go with assuming you don't actually know?

[BDunnell]

I beg your pardon,I did not know that.

Really? My goodness. Another example of the educational divide mentioned several times earlier.

[FIAT1]

Sorry but you are generalising again. You do understand that Europe is composed of many different countries, all with different tax and social policy, right? Do you care to expand on your point, or shall I go with assuming you don't actually know?

I will have to respectfully decline further engagement in to deep conversation on foreign affairs, because li looks like I have encountered higher level of intelect and knowledge on the matter, but that could all change ,and I could expand my point as soon as I read latest instalment of Rolling Stone magazine.

[Mark]

Your call. Just don't go making sweeping generalisations and expect everyone to agree with you. In this case, you may well be right, but haven't shown anything to back it up.

[FIAT1]

Really? My goodness. Another example of the educational divide mentioned several times earlier.

Agree, and I do apologize if my sarcasm got lost in translation.

[Starter]

My original question was: "An interesting question for everyone. Define what "fair share" means in the context of a discussion on taxes." Perhaps I wasn't clear that I meant a person's total income and not just wages. Mark had one answer in that everyone should pay at the highest rate (per the figures in my example). Certainly a valid way to look at it. I'll go through some of your points anyway.



1. Joe Blow at income 50,000 a year is in all likelyhood deriving his entire income from wages. This means to say that he has personally "worked" for his money. Whereas Romney at an income of ten million a year is more likely to have derived the vast bulk of his income from dividends, interest, etc. The generation of that income (since all income is essentially derived from real work and the production of goods and services), has been been a deduction for the firms that paid the wages but taxed in the hands of those that received it.
Fairness would suggest that the taxation rate on the income from non-personal sources should either equal or above that of the taxation rate on the income in the hands who actually performed real work in generating that income; in this case which Romney did not.
Also a good point. The theory behind a lower capital gains rate (interest, except for some government bonds, is taxed at the regular rate) is to provide incentive for people to invest in businesses that create jobs and more wealth. The rate is lower so people will invest in the riskier stock market rather than in bonds or other vehicles. Given that the theory is mostly, but not always, true, how would you get people to do that investing sans a bigger potential reward against the bigger risk?


2. If things like the Department of Defence are seen as a collective insurance system, then the stability of the economy should also be seen as a collective insurance system. People who benefit the most from the economy's stability, should therefore be liable for the greatest proportion of premium because they derive the greatest benefit from the stability of the economy.
If we take an example of equivalency, should a person driving a $10,000,000, gold plated, Bugatti Veyron pay a higher insurance premium than a person driving an Opel Insignia?
Depends on what you're insured against. For personal injury you shouldn't pay more. For replacement or repair value of the car, then obviously you should pay the equivalent premium for the cost of the repair.


3. People on lower incomes have a higher marginal propensity to consume. Their incomes are already more likely to be directed to private firms through retail spending. By giving people on lower incomes a concession, the economy is effectively permanently stimulated.
As incomes increase, the marginal utility of money decreases along with the marginal propensity to consume. Because the marginal utility of money decreases the actual burden of taxation is less as incomes increase.
Another way to look at it. That's the basis for a graduated tax.


Good question. Please tell me more about your theoretical economy so that I can play with some actual numbers.
I wasn't trying to create an entire economy, just looking to see what people felt about the subject of just exactly what is a "fair" tax.

[Gregor-y]

What's an Opel Insignia?
Sold here as the Buick Regal.

Capital gains are the main reason the rich get richer in this country as the rate has been held very low compared to wages received for work. The argument it is an incentive for investment is a bit thin since there's still no better place to invest if you have the money, and people like Mitt making millions end up paying a lower percentage to taxes, which as far as I know is not considered a fair burden. But there are any number of studies predicting the world will end if the rate is increased to even the level or other income, plus the political will's not there to fight the well funded wonks that perpetuate that philosophy.

[Lousada]

I wasn't trying to create an entire economy, just looking to see what people felt about the subject of just exactly what is a "fair" tax.

This could be an interesting subject for a new topic.


Also a good point. The theory behind a lower capital gains rate (interest, except for some government bonds, is taxed at the regular rate) is to provide incentive for people to invest in businesses that create jobs and more wealth. The rate is lower so people will invest in the riskier stock market rather than in bonds or other vehicles. Given that the theory is mostly, but not always, true, how would you get people to do that investing sans a bigger potential reward against the bigger risk?

One look at wikipedia and you could have discovered that your theory is wrong:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Top_Capital_Gains_Tax_Rates_and_Economic_Growth_19 50-2011.jpg

Or if you don't like wikipedia as a source, check this out:
Capital gains tax reductions are often proposed as a policy that will increase saving and
investment, provide a short-term economic stimulus, and boost long-term economic growth.
Capital gains tax rate reductions appear to decrease public saving and may have little or no effect
on private saving. Consequently, many analysts note that capital gains tax reductions likely have a
negative overall impact on national saving. Furthermore, capital gains tax rate reductions, they
observe, are unlikely to have much effect on the long-term level of output or the path to the longrun
level of output (i.e., economic growth). A tax reduction on capital gains would mostly benefit
very high income taxpayers who are likely to save most of any tax reduction. A temporary capital
gains tax reduction possibly could have a negative impact on short-term economic growth.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40411.pdf

[Mark]

Starter. You didn't say that you were just talking about income. That's a different situation indeed. In fact Captial Gains tax is not the same as Income Tax. IIRC 18% instead of 20%/40%/50%

[Starter]

Starter. You didn't say that you were just talking about income. That's a different situation indeed. In fact Captial Gains tax is not the same as Income Tax. IIRC 18% instead of 20%/40%/50%
Capital gain is income. Monetary gain from any source is income, wages, interest, prize money, return on investment, etc. In some places gain from different sources may be taxed differently, but it is still income.

[Rollo]

Also a good point. The theory behind a lower capital gains rate (interest, except for some government bonds, is taxed at the regular rate) is to provide incentive for people to invest in businesses that create jobs and more wealth. The rate is lower so people will invest in the riskier stock market rather than in bonds or other vehicles. Given that the theory is mostly, but not always, true, how would you get people to do that investing sans a bigger potential reward against the bigger risk?

If I've just mentioned "deriving his entire income from wages" then the capital gains tax on wages is nil. Capital Gains and Wages are treated different in some taxation codes... but they needn't be.

In Australia there actually is no such separate thing as Capital Gains Tax. Capital Gains are assessed at the same marginal rates as other income in the hands of the individual, company, or other entity. The thing is that capital in any economy almost always flows by itself to the instruments that derive the best outcome for the investor (people are motivated by self-interest), so the bigger potential reward for certain investment strategies be they shares, bonds, options, convertible notes etc etc etc, is of itself enough to attract investors.
And yes, the potential rewards are enough, for the ASX (Australian Securities Exchange) would be easily in the top ten of the world's borse despite Australia not even being in the top 10 of the world's largest economies.
The Capital Gains system in Australia works well; largely because there are no loopholes in it. By subsuming it into the rest of taxation legislation, it doesn't provide a chance for people to game the system in that particular way*


Depends on what you're insured against. For personal injury you shouldn't pay more. For replacement or repair value of the car, then obviously you should pay the equivalent premium for the cost of the repair.

Your specific question was "Define what "fair share" means in the context of a discussion on taxes."

Since we are talking about taxation here, I asked the question of taxation as an insurance question. The thing which we're insuring for here is the future stability of the economy. Since we charge the Government with the defence of the realm, certain infrastructure duties, and to encourage economic growth and promote the stability of the financial system generally, then the people who derive the most benefit from the stability of the financial system should be the ones to pay for it.


*The thing to remember about any economics question isn't that people are trying to game the system, but that everyone is always trying to game the system without exceptions. That's the reason why people hire lawyers and accountants to look at legislation to design new strategies and investment products.

[Starter]

Double post

[Starter]

If I've just mentioned "deriving his entire income from wages" then the capital gains tax on wages is nil. Capital Gains and Wages are treated different in some taxation codes... but they needn't be.
I agree with that.


And yes, the potential rewards are enough, for the ASX (Australian Securities Exchange) would be easily in the top ten of the world's borse despite Australia not even being in the top 10 of the world's largest economies.
The Capital Gains system in Australia works well; largely because there are no loopholes in it. By subsuming it into the rest of taxation legislation, it doesn't provide a chance for people to game the system in that particular way*
If you've kept loopholes out, then you're a better man than us Gunga Din. ;)


Since we are talking about taxation here, I asked the question of taxation as an insurance question. The thing which we're insuring for here is the future stability of the economy. Since we charge the Government with the defence of the realm, certain infrastructure duties, and to encourage economic growth and promote the stability of the financial system generally, then the people who derive the most benefit from the stability of the financial system should be the ones to pay for it.
A very good argument can be made that those on the bottom of the ladder gain the most benefit from the stability of the system.



*The thing to remember about any economics question isn't that people are trying to game the system, but that everyone is always trying to game the system without exceptions. That's the reason why people hire lawyers and accountants to look at legislation to design new strategies and investment products.
We are on the same page here. I agree completely that ALL people try and game the taxation system. You would almost be foolish not to. That's the best argument for eliminating opportunities to do said gaming.

[Rollo]

A very good argument can be made that those on the bottom of the ladder gain the most benefit from the stability of the system.


Benefit, n:
1. something helpful, favourable or profitable
2. an allowance of money etc. to which someone is entitled

An empirical and statistical argument can be made otherwise, even from the example which you gave.


I'll start with an example:
Romney at an income of, oh say, ten million a year and rate of 14% 10,000,000 x 14% = $1,400,000.
Joe Blow at income of, lets say, 50,000 a year and tax rate of 20%. 50,000 x 20% = $10,000.
In this case, Romney would pay 28 times in taxes what Joe MAKES in a year.


Someone on 10,000,000 a year is deriving a monetary benefit of... 10,000,000 a year. Likewise, someone on 50,000 a year is deriving a monetary benefit of 50,000 a year.
The person on 10,000,000 a year derives a benefit precisely 200 times that of someone on 50,000 a year.

Money is not just a medium of exchange, it is also the standard of relative worth and benefit.

[chuck34]

An interesting question for everyone. Define what "fair share" means in the context of a discussion on taxes.

I'll start with an example:
Romney at an income of, oh say, ten million a year and rate of 14% 10,000,000 x 14% = $1,400,000.
Joe Blow at income of, lets say, 50,000 a year and tax rate of 20%. 50,000 x 20% = $10,000.
In this case, Romney would pay 28 times in taxes what Joe MAKES in a year.

Who exactly is paying their fair share?

Flawed example. Statistically speaking Joe Blow pays no where near 20%. It's more like 14.3% for total Federal tax, and 3.3% for Individual Income tax that's assuming that Joe making $50,000 is in the Middle Quintile, which I think is safe to assume.

Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates for All Households (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456)

Another interesting read.
Washington Post Errors on Romney's Average Tax Rate | Tax Foundation (http://taxfoundation.org/blog/washington-post-errors-romneys-average-tax-rate)

But let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument. ;-)

[D-Type]

Some people appear to be overlooking indirect taxation - sales tax, VAT, duty on tobacco and alcohol, import duties etc. No matter what your income, when you spend it you pay tax at the same rate.

[Rollo]

Some people appear to be overlooking indirect taxation - sales tax, VAT, duty on tobacco and alcohol, import duties etc. No matter what your income, when you spend it you pay tax at the same rate.

Relative to incomes though, someone on £10,000 pays a higher proportion than someone on £100,000 by virtue of the fact that they spend a greater proportion of their income. Even if people spend more as their incomes go up, they're more likely to save that next pound.
I can show you the mechanics if you like but essentially all consumption based taxes are regressive in nature.

You can also complicate the issue even further in the United States because there's taxes at Federal and State level and in some instances county and city level just to make things even more complex.

[Starter]

You can also complicate the issue even further in the United States because there's taxes at Federal and State level and in some instances county and city level just to make things even more complex.
A lot of non Americans don't know how much we pay in extra taxes over and above the US and state income taxes. There are county and city income taxes; state and county/city sales taxes; county/city and state property taxes; excise taxes on telephones, tires, booze, cable, etc.; federal and state inheritance taxes; environmental taxes; social security and medicare tax and a myriad of others.

[anthonyvop]

A lot of non Americans don't know how much we pay in extra taxes over and above the US and state income taxes. There are county and city income taxes; state and county/city sales taxes; county/city and state property taxes; excise taxes on telephones, tires, booze, cable, etc.; federal and state inheritance taxes; environmental taxes; social security and medicare tax and a myriad of others.

I pay around 50% in total taxes. I even pay a tax for being able to post here.

[race aficionado]

And back to the presidential Race:

Pretty nifty smack-down that President Obama gave to Governor Romney.

Job well done mister president, well done.

[janvanvurpa]

And back to the presidential Race:

Pretty nifty smack-down that President Obama gave to Governor Romney.

Job well done mister president, well done.


Willard was sputtering and stuttering and whining and interrupting again.

Now last time all the "lib'ral" media said Willard was "forceful' or farceful or something, But I thought he looked and sounded like a freshmen frat-boy... Then when Biden did his masterful job with that guy, it was "Biden was aggressive", wonder if Obama will get accused of aggressiveness...

Both broke the Memorandum of Understanding the both signed on the rules of the debates to "not directly address the other" with Romney once again thinking rules are for other people....

Saw a good comment:

(MSS): There's something about Romney's face-to-face, heartwarming insincerity that seems incredibly more insincere than his "standing in front of a huge crowd talking in general" insincerity. He's just bringing whole levels of artificial to an already artificial exchange. Like a hooker wearing earbuds and a big yellow rubber kitchen glove while giving a handjob.

[Kaiser]

Huh? once again, Romney showed the flaws and garbage perpetrated by the Obama admin. I noticed that Obama dealt very little with specifics and even tried to use some very questionable math too. There was some Bush blaming although we know the true problems came about when the Dems took over.

Bottom line is that Obama doesn't want to cut spending and Romney does. Over-spending is what got us in this mess in the first place. Fraud, waster and corruption will be the most memorable things from the one time Obama admin. Go Romney!!

[D-Type]

Can someone please clarify how things really work in the States? Constitutionally and in practice.

Is it the President, the Senate or the House of Representatives who determines policy?
I know that constitutionally executive power, ie carrying out of policy, is the function of the President. But that is not the same as formulating the policy.
And where does the Legislature fit in?

[FIAT1]

President spoke! That alone is improvement from last time. Did not say much ,and no future plans, but did speak with force. Most of the night trash talking man with a plan. Romney did not give in, and fired back, at times looked like two kids playing tag game. I like debates and they should be open forum and more of them. Choice is between more debt ,more of the same tax ,print more money and spend or new direction where growth and prosperity is focused on job creators and business friendly environment.

[Kaiser]

President spoke! That alone is improvement from last time. Did not say much ,and no future plans, but did speak with force. Most of the night trash talking man with a plan. Romney did not give in, and fired back, at times looked like two kids playing tag game. I like debates and they should be open forum and more of them. Choice is between more debt ,more of the same tax ,print more money and spend or new direction where growth and prosperity is focused on job creators and business friendly environment.

Well said, we know the past 4 years have been a colossal failure and we simply cannot sustain it. I didn't hear many specifics from Obama aside from lies about oil & coal and some very bad math about Romney's plan. The key point that lost the debate for Obama was his complete and utter falsehoods about Benghazi and the major screw ups there. Not to mention the countless times he blamed others. If this is the best the President has, then Mitt is a shoe-in.

[Starter]

Can someone please clarify how things really work in the States? Constitutionally and in practice.

Is it the President, the Senate or the House of Representatives who determines policy?
I know that constitutionally executive power, ie carrying out of policy, is the function of the President. But that is not the same as formulating the policy.
And where does the Legislature fit in?
Well, if you watch the debates, you would think the President is responsible for everything.

How it works in real life is something different.
1) Proposed policy and legislation can be introduced by either the President or in either house of Congress (House of Representatives and Senate).
2) The proposed legislation is (usually) referred to the appropriate Congressional committee for discussion. That legislation can either be killed in committee, modified or can be sent to the floor for discussion and a vote. Usually, when a piece of legislation goes through Congress, there are similar, but not necessarily the same, companion bills in the other house.
3) Once a piece of legislation passes either house, it goes to the other house for consideration or, in the case of companion bills, it goes to a reconciliation committee to iron out the differences between the two bills. Assuming it passes this step, and both House & Senate approve, it goes to the President for signature.
4) Here, the President has three options. Sign it into law; veto it; or not sign it.
A) Sign it and it's law. The President and his cabinet now have some discretion as to how the law is applied and enforced.
B) Veto it. The bill then goes back to Congress for modification and/ or vote. Congress can either modify the bill and send it back or over ride the veto with a 2/3 majority vote. If overridden, it becomes law.
C) Not sign it. This gives the Pres political cover by saying "Hey, I didn't sign it".
5) As noted in "A", the law and the reality of how it's applied can differ. There is also the question of, in the enabling legislation, did Congress include funding to administer the law. This is another way politicians can claim the high ground of saying "I voted for it" but know it will never be applied.
6) The Supreme Court can then review the law and uphold or over turn it. But only if someone files suit and the case is elevated through the court system to that level. Some laws are challenged and over turned in lower courts and never brought before the Supreme Court.

I'm sure someone will jump on that description above and say I've got something wrong, but that's the short version of how it works.

[janvanvurpa]

Can someone please clarify how things really work in the States? Constitutionally and in practice.

Is it the President, the Senate or the House of Representatives who determines policy?
I know that constitutionally executive power, ie carrying out of policy, is the function of the President. But that is not the same as formulating the policy.
And where does the Legislature fit in?

Theoretically a citizen goes and visits his rep or senator and explains something is wrong with his kids that grew two heads and the crops withered since the mega chemical plant opened over in the next county...that Rep or Senator in justifiable outrage may introduce a bill to limit pollution...

Then in practice the Mega-Chem Corp lobbyist meets with him, expresses concern about why, after all the 10s of thousands of dollars transferred into his campaigns is he treating him with such disrespect? Meanwhile the CEO of Mega-Chem Corp "happens" to bump into a few Senators and maybe the Prez and 'splains "he hear some pip-squeak is making noise about a few slight mutations....and Finkelbaum from that District sorta introduced a bill..... I'm going to make you an offer, Prez, an offer you cannot..........."

And the bill never gets out of the Whatever Committee..


OR the lobbyists actually sit down and actually draft the Bills they want and usually, mostly Republican lawmakers push to pass the bills verbatim.... A lot of horrible hate legislation has been done that way thru front organistions calling themselves and the meetings they have with legislators and lobbyists "educational seminars" but are really bribery sessions financed by a small circle of notorious multi-billionaires such as Koch Brothers...

Here's a interesting look at one notorious law:
Hate Group Lawyer Drafted Arizona (http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/04/28/hate-group-lawyer-drafted-arizona-anti-immigrant-law/)

And the notorious American Legislative Exchange Council
American Legislative Exchange Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council)


In a Dec. 2011 article critical of ALEC which appeared in The Nation magazine, John Nichols described ALEC as a “collaboration between multinational corporations and conservative state legislators,"[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-Nichols2-5) which perhaps shows some of the ambiguity regarding ALEC. Progressive advocacy groups such as Common Cause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Cause) questioned ALEC's non-profit status, alleging that the Council engaged in lobbying.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-bw-6) Bill Moyers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moyers) summarized the operation: "Politicians and lobbyists at the core of this clever enterprise figured out how to pull it off in an organized, camouflaged way -- covering their tracks while they put one over on an unsuspecting public."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-BM-7)
ALEC provides a forum for corporations and legislators to collaborate on "model bills"—draft legislation which the corporations would like to become law. The model bills are then introduced by ALEC's legislative members, and approximately 200 per year become law.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-Bloomberg-8) ALEC has produced model legislation on issues such as reducing corporate regulation and taxation, tightening voter identification rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws), streamlining or minimizing environmental protections (depending on how one looks at it), and promoting gun rights.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-stealth-3)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-Bloomberg-8)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-Kraft-9) ALEC also serves as a networking tool among state legislators, allowing them to research the handling and "best practices" of policy in other states

ALEC mission statement language included in bills In November 2011, Florida State Representative Rachel Burgin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Burgin) (R), introduced legislation to call on the federal government to reduce its corporate tax rate. The text still included the boilerplate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilerplate_text) "WHEREAS, it is the mission of the American Legislative Exchange Council to advance Jeffersonian principles of free markets, limited government, federalism, and individual liberty..."[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-26) The bill was quickly withdrawn, the phrase removed, and was resubmitted as HM717,[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-27)
Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law After Florida passed its Stand-your-ground law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law), the American Legislative Exchange Council adopted its legislative language into one of its model bills.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-28)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-29)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-30)



Origin and funding:

In 2012, Walter Mondale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mondale), former Democratic Vice President of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_President_of_the_United_States), and Arne Carlson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_Carlson), former Republican governor of Minnesota (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_of_Minnesota), referred in an op-ed piece to the political activities of the Koch family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Koch_family) and ALEC, saying:

"[ALEC] is the creation of the Koch brothers who amassed their fortunes in oil and who live in Florida. The goal of ALEC is to influence legislators across the nation."[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-63)
Journalist John Nichols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nichols_%28journalist%29) opined in The Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nation) that the Koch brothers have provided funding to ALEC for "decades" in a "savage assault on democracy".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-Nichols2-5)
According to Bloomberg News (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomberg_News), ALEC is funded by, among others, Koch Industries Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Industries_Inc.) and Exxon Mobil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Mobil).[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#cite_note-64)




So for one side in America, this is how it works: corporate lawyers buy legislators AND draft the laws they want---all behind closed doors and in secret.

[janvanvurpa]

Double post

[chuck34]

.... Republicans BAD ....

.... Democrats GOOD ....



Or in the real world both sides do the same crap.

Democrats give corporations, lobbyists a role at convention - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/05/nation/la-na-convention-money-20120406)

But even as Democrats tout the three-day event in September as a populist gathering, organizers have found ways to skirt the rules and give corporations and lobbyists a presence at the nominating convention. That suggests they can't raise the $37 million for the political extravaganza without at least some help from moneyed interests.

And who do you think actually wrote the Affordable Care Act (AKA Obamacare)?

[janvanvurpa]

Or in the real world both sides do the same crap.

Democrats give corporations, lobbyists a role at convention - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/05/nation/la-na-convention-money-20120406)


And who do you think actually wrote the Affordable Care Act (AKA Obamacare)?

Didn't say Democrats good.

I did say that many Republicans are obviously not just bought, they willingly sell themselves at this American Legislative Exchange Council.

And equating this:

espite the ban on corporate money, for example, convention officials have encouraged corporate executives to write personal checks, according to sources familiar with the fundraising. And they have suggested that corporations can participate by donating goods and services to the convention, and by giving up to $100,000 through a corporate foundation. They have also quietly explained to lobbyists that while they can't make contributions, they can help raise money from their clients — by soliciting personal checks from executives or in-kind contributions from corporations. Lobbyists who bundle high sums will get perks like premium credentials and hotel rooms.

To corporate lawyers drafting legislation is fatuous.

How about a link to some long term millionaire and corporate funded "members only" Lobbying center just for Democrats?
And to Corporate drafted laws passed by Democrats..
Did they introduce any legislation to intentionally eliminate millions of voters???

And who wrote ACA? this guys is said to have been


Ezekiel Emanuel, instrumental in drafting the Affordable Care Act, to give Deinard Memorial Lecture Jan. 25 Contacts: Martha Coventry, U of M Consortium on Law and Values, coven002@umn.edu, (612) 625-2948
Jeff Falk (http://www1.umn.edu/news/media-contacts/index.html#Jeff%20Falk), University News Service, jfalk@umn.edu, (612) 626-1720
Ezekiel Emanuel, a former health care adviser to President Obama, will give an insider’s view of the future—and cost—of American medicine and how the Affordable Care Act will affect the delivery of care on Wednesday, Jan. 25, in the Cowles Auditorium of the University of Minnesota’s Humphrey Center, 301 19th Ave. S., Minneapolis.
Former health care advisor for the Office of Management and Budget, a prominent bioethicist and chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania, Emanuel will give the annual Deinard Memorial Lecture on Law & Medicine.
Stephen Parente, director of the Medical Industry Leadership Institute at the U’s Carlson School of Management, will provide comments and a counterpoint after the lecture.
Emanuel speaks from 11:30 a.m. to 12:15 p.m. and Parente from 12:15 p.m. to 12:25 p.m. Both speakers are followed by a moderated Q&A session.
You can read a series of Emanuel’s recent opinion pieces about health care costs on his New York Times blog (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/author/ezekiel-j-emanuel/).



And more specifically Jon Gruber
: He was a key architect of the sweeping health insurance reforms that Massachusetts enacted in 2006, while Mitt Romney was governor. Gruber currently sits on the board of the state's "Connector," which helps oversee the implementation of those reforms.:

White House used Mitt Romney health-care law as blueprint for federal law
Three advisers to GOP candidate met a dozen times with senior Obama officials, records show
President Obama has frequently said Obamacare was modeled on Romneycare. Last April, Romney asked why Obama hadn't brought him in to discuss it, then. Well, Romney wasn't invited in but NBC news is reporting (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44854320/ns/politics-decision_2012/#.TpQ9EHFXRFt)that several of the people who drafted Romneycare were, such as:

“The White House wanted to lean a lot on what we’d done in Massachusetts,” said Jon Gruber, an MIT economist who advised the Romney administration on health care and who attended five meetings at the Obama White House in 2009, including the meeting with the president. “They really wanted to know how we can take that same approach we used in Massachusetts and turn that into a national model.” ...

In addition to Obama himself, the meetings attended by Gruber were presided over by the president’s chief economic adviser, Lawrence Summers, then budget director Peter Orzag and Nancy-Ann DeParle, the president’s chief adviser on health care, the records show. Gruber was also given a $380,000 contract by the Obama administration in 2009 to work with Congress on drafting a new federal law based on the Massachusetts law, records show.

How much does news like this bother Ricocheters? Do you buy Romney's argument that Romneycare is great at the state level but not nationally and that each state should come up with its own entitlement program? Do all of the problems with Romneycare (http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v30n1/cpr30n1-1.html) mean anything?








What's this have to do with the Presidential Elections?

[anthonyvop]

And back to the presidential Race:

Pretty nifty smack-down that President Obama gave to Governor Romney.

Job well done mister president, well done.

You see what you want to see and yet on the Ubber Liberal MSNBC

MSNBC's Undecided Voter Panel Swayed by Romney | The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/msnbcs-undecided-voter-panel-swayed-romney_654728.html)

What I saw was Obama campaigning like he wasn't the incumbent and he had nothing to do with the Last 3 /12 years and the Bush is still President while constantly interrupting Governor Romney. I saw an "unbiased" Moderator give the president more time and then attack the Governor with a Bold Face lie.
Video: Candy Crowley Admits Romney Was Correct About Libya Attack But Simply Couldn (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-sheffield/2012/10/17/video-candy-crowley-admits-romney-was-correct-about-libya-attack)

Even she admits it.

[Kaiser]

I love it "intentionally eliminate millions of voters". What a fallacy!

To use the quote from Ben Stein:

"Fathom the hypocrisy of a government
that requires every citizen to prove they
are insured. . . but not everyone must
prove they are a citizen."

Now add this, "Many of those who refuse,
or are unable, to prove they are citizens
will receive free insurance paid for by
those who are forced to buy insurance because they are citizens."

I also laugh at the "Affordable" part of the Affordable Healthcare act. Who is this affordable for? My rates have gone up as have most people's in this country and much of it is in anticipation of ObamaCare. I work for a major heath insurance provider and i know we have cut jobs and eliminated open reqs due to Obamacare. I am supposed to have 2 more people report to me in 2012 and....well sorry, you get nothing. So it is already costing jobs.

Give me a guy who has a record of success like Romney ANY day. A guy who builds, not who tears things down. Give me that guy with years and years of success of 4 years of abject failure, massive debt, fewer jobs, average household incomes down, and more people on food stamps than ever before. Four more years of Obama is just not sustainable.

Why were the main points that the Republicans proposed for healthcare completely ignored by the Democrats? As Romney said, in Mass. they were able to work together on a plan, Obama forced this "tax" on us.

[donKey jote]

A guy who builds
A guy who builds what and for whom ? :cornfused:

9Vr842TpBWE

[chuck34]

Didn't say Democrats good.

I did say that many Republicans are obviously not just bought, they willingly sell themselves at this American Legislative Exchange Council.

And equating this:


To corporate lawyers drafting legislation is fatuous.

How about a link to some long term millionaire and corporate funded "members only" Lobbying center just for Democrats?
And to Corporate drafted laws passed by Democrats..
Did they introduce any legislation to intentionally eliminate millions of voters???

And who wrote ACA? this guys is said to have been



And more specifically Jon Gruber

So basically what you are saying is that anyone that lobbies a Repulican is bad, and anyone that lobbies a Democrat is good.

Do you seriously believe the crap that you write? Am I supposed to take you seriously when you suggest that there are no Democrat lobbiests, or that no Democrats have proposed laws written by corporations? How about proposing laws written by Unions? I'm sure that's all fine and dandy in your world?

20 seconds of Googling will prove you wrong.
Top Lobbyists: Hired Guns - The Hill - covering Congress, Politics, Political Campaigns and Capitol Hill | TheHill.com (http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/185843-top-lobbyists-hired-guns)
Facebook Hires Top Democratic Lobbying Firm - Sunlight Foundation Blog (http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/02/24/facebook-hires-top-democratic-lobbying-firm/)

I could continue to list, but I'm bored.



What's this have to do with the Presidential Elections?

I have no idea. You are the one that brought up how "evil" Republicans are because they sometimes entertain lobbiest's ideas. So I just wanted to point out the fact that both sides do exactly the same thing.

[Gregor-y]

Who sent out the letter telling every conservative to quote the same Ben Stein bit in every forum I seem to visit? It's kind of creepy.

[janvanvurpa]

So basically what you are saying is that anyone that lobbies a Repulican is bad, and anyone that lobbies a Democrat is good.

Do you seriously believe the crap that you write? Am I supposed to take you seriously when you suggest that there are no Democrat lobbiests, or that no Democrats have proposed laws written by corporations? How about proposing laws written by Unions? I'm sure that's all fine and dandy in your world?

20 seconds of Googling will prove you wrong.
Top Lobbyists: Hired Guns - The Hill - covering Congress, Politics, Political Campaigns and Capitol Hill | TheHill.com (http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/185843-top-lobbyists-hired-guns)
Facebook Hires Top Democratic Lobbying Firm - Sunlight Foundation Blog (http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/02/24/facebook-hires-top-democratic-lobbying-firm/)

I could continue to list, but I'm bored.




I have no idea. You are the one that brought up how "evil" Republicans are because they sometimes entertain lobbiest's ideas. So I just wanted to point out the fact that both sides do exactly the same thing.

Again, you put words in people's mouth and then berate them for what you did. It is offensive. It is dishonest, and should merit an "Infraction" from the so called moderators when you do that because it is trying to start a fight.

I did not say Republicans are evil because they sometimes entertain...
They are evil because they are evil. The list of crimes and convictions for moral failures, as the long record shows, is proof enough... The point is not that they TO USE YOUR WORDS "entertain ideas", they intentionally craft a means to circumvent State and Federal laws regarding disclosure of who pays for their junkets, and presumably eagerly introduce bills written by corporate lawyers and push those laws thru for their masters...

Something that you or I cannot do, something that the Founders of the country would crap their collective britches if they were alive today.

It is and has perverted the Governmental system, gutted democracy and the fact that they have striven to maintain the secrecy of who is member of this cabal, who donates what, which bills do they introduce verbatim means they know what they are doing is indefensible. And evil.

No reasonable person could defend this specific thing and we don't buy the lame, lazy attempts to parry this stinking scandle with your glib equivocation...

They who are doing it don't defend it, what sort of morally hollow person could?
The fact that you are proves your intentions in not discussion and enlightenment but only argument for arguments sake.

[Rollo]

They are evil because they are evil. The list of crimes and convictions for moral failures, as the long record shows, is proof enough... The point is not that they TO USE YOUR WORDS "entertain ideas", they intentionally craft a means to circumvent State and Federal laws regarding disclosure of who pays for their junkets, and presumably eagerly introduce bills written by corporate lawyers and push those laws thru for their masters...

This statement applies equally well to both sides of the party divide in the United States. For reasons I've yet to understand, the American people keep on voting for both sides of the cartelised duopoly.
Wall Street owns the political machines in the United States, not the people.

[race aficionado]

Couldn't help it . . . .

For all the details on Mitt Romney's 5 trillion dollar tax plan visit ROMNEYTAXPLAN.COM (http://www.romneytaxplan.com/)

[chuck34]

Oh man, lot's of stuff here. Where to begin ..... Let's see we have:


Appeal to authority:

Again, you put words in people's mouth and then berate them for what you did. It is offensive. It is dishonest, and should merit an "Infraction" from the so called moderators when you do that because it is trying to start a fight.

Changing the subject, and Stereotyping:

I did not say Republicans are evil because they sometimes entertain...
They are evil because they are evil. The list of crimes and convictions for moral failures, as the long record shows, is proof enough...


Outright slander:

The point is not that they TO USE YOUR WORDS "entertain ideas", they intentionally craft a means to circumvent State and Federal laws regarding disclosure of who pays for their junkets, and presumably eagerly introduce bills written by corporate lawyers and push those laws thru for their masters...


Changing the subject again, with a bit of an appeal to authority:

Something that you or I cannot do, something that the Founders of the country would crap their collective britches if they were alive today.


Strawman, and willful ignorance to my poin that both sides do this:

It is and has perverted the Governmental system, gutted democracy and the fact that they have striven to maintain the secrecy of who is member of this cabal, who donates what, which bills do they introduce verbatim means they know what they are doing is indefensible. And evil.

Arguing from intimidation:

No reasonable person could defend this specific thing and we don't buy the lame, lazy attempts to parry this stinking scandle with your glib equivocation...

And this one takes the cake, accusing me of "not debating", when you are the one that hasn't put forward one fact.

They who are doing it don't defend it, what sort of morally hollow person could?
The fact that you are proves your intentions in not discussion and enlightenment but only argument for arguments sake.


This is why I usually stay out of these things anymore. In a political debate on this forum, sooner or later janvan will come along and throw out every intellectually dishonest debate tactic there is to "prove" his "facts". It's old, I don't know why I even allowed myself to get involved.

[janvanvurpa]

Oh man, lot's of stuff here. Where to begin ..... Let's see we have:


Appeal to authority:


Changing the subject, and Stereotyping:



Outright slander:



Changing the subject again, with a bit of an appeal to authority:



Strawman, and willful ignorance to my poin that both sides do this:


Arguing from intimidation:


And this one takes the cake, accusing me of "not debating", when you are the one that hasn't put forward one fact.



This is why I usually stay out of these things anymore. In a political debate on this forum, sooner or later janvan will come along and throw out every intellectually dishonest debate tactic there is to "prove" his "facts". It's old, I don't know why I even allowed myself to get involved.



To the Moderators who keep giving me----and we have no idea if they give THIS GUY any infractions:
THIS following is response to the immediate above long list of PERSONAL ATTACKS---in case you don't understand---accusing somebody of slander repeatedly is personal....extremely personal.
Slander is a crime--this Chuck schmuck has just accused me of criminal offenses---in response to correcting his BS that I said this or that

And YOU are why I avoided this place for almost a year. You as a human disgust me. You repel me. You are the stereotype of what is wrong with Americans as a people.

MODS

There are only a few ---all leaning more or less the same way Americans--- who constantly trying to derail any back and forth type discussion, constantly complaining to Mods when their increasingly bizarre and non-sequitor posts are AT ALL QUESTIONED
or even responded to...

You Mods are overreacting or OR have some other deal going on,.

THIS IS a political thread, you must expect some strong opinions---and either back off on these infractions for every post that the "usual suspects" whine to you about, or just give everybody an infraction for every post entry.

MODS your actions are more disruptive than anything here--nearly.

[chuck34]

And YOU are why I avoided this place for almost a year. You as a human disgust me. You repel me. You are the stereotype of what is wrong with Americans as a people.


I have never once complained to a Moderator about anything on this forum ... Until now.

[Firstgear]

MODS your actions are more disruptive than anything here--nearly.

Actually posts like yours above, containing nothing but personal attacks against other forum members and distain for moderators (who are here volunteering time, doing a great job keeping this place clean and enjoyable) are about the most disruptive thing here.

I don't know how to say this without possibly coming across as hurtful (which is not my intent) - but are you as angry in real life as you come across from behind a keyboard? That amount of anger/hate isn't healthy.

[pino]

Guys please do keep insults and personal comments off here, and to those who wants to complain about Mods...please do use Feedback Forum thank you :rolleyes:

[Kaiser]

Who sent out the letter telling every conservative to quote the same Ben Stein bit in every forum I seem to visit? It's kind of creepy.

And more than "kind of " true

[Gregor-y]

Not in any way, shape or form. If we were serious about ids we'd make them free and much easier to acquire. Heck even Ben Stein himself says he didn't write that and we need to raise taxes.

[Rollo]

Just a question.

I've had a chance to view about an hour's worth of adverts coming from both camps and whilst they go through the usual sort of process of build up their guy or attack the character or record of the other, if I was a neutral and had the vote, I don't think I'd be convinced.

With all of these adverts and even the third and final episode of Mittens and O coming up, is all of this campaigning money even well spent at all?
You're not really going to convince the dyed in the wool supporters from both sides, which means to say that the adverts are meant to sway the smallish part of the population who swing votes. Unlike Australia where voting is compulsory where the political literacy of the electorate is probably higher, are the adverts really only intended to get the people who otherwise couldn't be bothered to vote?

[Starter]

Just a question.

I've had a chance to view about an hour's worth of adverts coming from both camps and whilst they go through the usual sort of process of build up their guy or attack the character or record of the other, if I was a neutral and had the vote, I don't think I'd be convinced.

With all of these adverts and even the third and final episode of Mittens and O coming up, is all of this campaigning money even well spent at all?
You're not really going to convince the dyed in the wool supporters from both sides, which means to say that the adverts are meant to sway the smallish part of the population who swing votes. Unlike Australia where voting is compulsory where the political literacy of the electorate is probably higher, are the adverts really only intended to get the people who otherwise couldn't be bothered to vote?
It supposedly does two things. Reenforces the already convinced and persuades the not yet decided. IMO, it doesn't do the latter. Those people pretty much make up their own minds and obviously biased commercials won't do it for them.

[Mark]

Often the key is to get supporters to actually bother to vote. In the UK elections are on Thursdays and its often difficult to find time in the working day.

[gloomyDAY]

Often the key is to get supporters to actually bother to vote. In the UK elections are on Thursdays and its often difficult to find time in the working day.Absentee ballot! I'm sending my vote in the mail tomorrow.

[Mark]

You have to know in advance if you are going to be busy on the day!

There's been elections in the UK using only postal voting and they've been overshadowed with accusations of fraud.

[Tazio]

These noreply emails are starting to arrive twice a day at least. I replied to another one that was said to be from 'Shelly to me. I said Barak had my vote and that She was my woman and we3 could keep it a secret,and Barak wouldn't mind. :D

Victor --

I know we ask you to do a lot, and I cannot tell you how grateful I am for all you've done -- but with six days to go, we all need to dig a little deeper.

Right now, all of the progress we've made together is in danger of being undone. We just found out we're being outraised in this final month by a wide margin.

We've always known this race would be close, and we've always known we'd have to work harder than the other side -- the question is, will you step up and do that right now, before it's too late?

Please chip in $5 or more today:

https://donate.barackobama.com/Six-Days

We've beaten the odds before -- by coming together and giving all we can. Let's do it again. Barack needs you.

Thanks,

Michelle

P.S. -- Any donation you make by midnight tonight will automatically enter you to bring a guest to Chicago to meet Barack and have front-row tickets to his speech on Election Night.

[Rollo]

Most commentators I've read seem to suggest that Sandy will have a massive impact on the election next week. Apart from the obvious that the final push to attract voters is now thrown into utter chaos.

I think that this sums up the current situation best:
"Anyone who thinks they currently know who it helps/hurts is just making [stuff] up."
9 days -- STORM SURGE: Sandy could scramble race -- HUGE ROMNEY DAY: Rises in Ohio poll -- D.M. Register goes R for first time in 40 yrs. -- 1A of Tampa Times: 'may be over for Obama' in Fla. - POLITICO Playbook - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/playbook/1012/playbook9335.html)

I would hazard a guess that it's going to lower voter turnout in the eastern states, but who that helps, I don't really know.

[anthonyvop]

Most commentators I've read seem to suggest that Sandy will have a massive impact on the election next week. Apart from the obvious that the final push to attract voters is now thrown into utter chaos.




The left is already making excuses.

All of the states heavily affected by Sandy (NY, NJ, Maryland & Delaware) are all solidly in the Obama camp and he will get their electoral votes.

[Rollo]

The left is already making excuses.

Excuses for what now?

[DanicaFan]

After this Benghazi coverup by Obama and his administration, I just get more disgusted everyday! The only network that will air the truth is FOX. All other media is bias and will not give the truth. Emails and phone calls came claiming the attack as it happened. What did Obama do....nothing! What a coward! He should be impeached and jailed for this. Neglection of duty!

Anyone that votes for Obama deserves to be jobless, less money, and more of a laughing stock to the world.
If you are an American and are not outraged by how this was handled, people left to die, then something is seriously wrong.

[race aficionado]

As a Colombiano - and a citizen of the United States of America, I can't wait - and I'm looking so much forward to - to finally be able to place my vote for the next president of this great country.

That is an understatement by the way . . . . most of us are fed up with this crazy whirlwind of blah blah blah!

Let's walk the walk, shall we?

:s mokin:

[donKey jote]

Anyone that votes for Obama deserves to be jobless, less money, and more of a laughing stock to the world.


Hear hear! A somebody called DanicaFan, the voice of the only true patriots, has spoken: all you insignificant people, like Powell (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/25/us-usa-campaign-powell-idUSBRE89O0RY20121025) ("is it because he's black?" :dozey: :p ) or Bloomberg (http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2012/11/01/barack-obama-michael-bloomberg-election-2012/1674967/), deserve to be jobless, have less money, and be more of a laughing stock to the world. :bandit:

[Starter]

Hear hear! A somebody called DanicaFan, the voice of the only true patriots, has spoken: all you insignificant people, like Powell (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/25/us-usa-campaign-powell-idUSBRE89O0RY20121025) ("is it because he's black?" :dozey: :p ) or Bloomberg (http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2012/11/01/barack-obama-michael-bloomberg-election-2012/1674967/), deserve to be jobless, have less money, and be more of a laughing stock to the world. :bandit:
Powell is jobless at the moment. ;)

[donKey jote]

Powell is jobless at the moment. ;)

and as DanicaFan said... he deserves it too ! :p

[beachgirl]

Powell is jobless at the moment. ;)

I believe "retired" is the proper word.

Oh the decision - trust Colin Powell or Danicafan.......

[gloomyDAY]

I'm sick of the elections. I turned in my ballot over a week ago, and I've turned off my TV! I don't even watch live sporting events on my TV because of all the stupid political commercials. I really can't wait for Tuesday (aside from Halo 4 coming out), so this election can end. Luckily, I'm not in a battleground state or else I'd be bombarded with silly advertising and ridiculous scare tactics.

Oh, in case anyone is wondering, I voted for Gary Johnson. Third party candidate, so I threw away my vote. I just think the next election will force people to think outside of the 2-party box because no one likes voting for the lesser of two evils.

[race aficionado]

One of the benefits-great benefits-of living in the state of New York is that it will go Democrat no matter what, so we are not inundated with any political ads - unless you watch FOX of course, which I stay away of as if it were a plague.
I only get to watch part of FOX news when Stewart or Colbert make fun of it . . . .

any way . . . . getting closer to BHOCTBTNPOTUSA

(Barack Hussein Obama Chosen To Be The Next President Of The United States Of America) :wave:

[Alexamateo]

I believe "retired" is the proper word.

.......

Well no wonder then, he's become one of the 47% who pay no income taxes now. ;)

[donKey jote]

I only get to watch part of FOX news when Stewart or Colbert make fun of it . . . .

:up: :wave:

[Tazio]

This commercial with Al Sharpton cracks me up!! ;)

The Rev. Al Sharpton's Blueberry Pie Commercial - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uisC1zHcxLk) :wave:

[race aficionado]

This is it.
Long lines everywhere.
History in the making.
Hold on to your pantalones.
Time to exercise our right to VOTE.

[Mark]

I have no such right :p

[Tazio]

You get a pretty good idea why Americans like Danica-Fan are so adamantly against "The President of the United States of America" when you hear the total B.S. he is trying to get over the top with.

Chrysler CEO: Jeep not moving to China - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57542594/chrysler-ceo-jeep-not-moving-to-china/)

Damn the Italians eternal souls :laugh:

Luke 19:28 Jesus said....."who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither and kill them before me" :arrows:

Only Born Again Southern Baptist's are real Christians…… Damn Italians are Catholics :angryfire

[gloomyDAY]

Hey guys! Look at how Romney is trying to steal the election in Ohio.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpGd74DrBM&feature=youtu.be

[Rollo]

How is it in the United States that you have so many problems with vote counting? In Australia we have paper ballots and it is possible to know the entire result of an election within 3 hours of the last polling station closed.

All votes in Australia are counted by hand; even when you end up with the occasional table cloth ballot paper.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5023/5561216946_0864e49f79_z.jpg

[Mark]

Same in the UK. However the UK is a small country. Australia isn't small but it does have a small population.

However the USA is large and has a large population.

But then the distrust of voting machines just doesn't go away.

[Rollo]

Same in the UK. However the UK is a small country. Australia isn't small but it does have a small population.
However the USA is large and has a large population.
But then the distrust of voting machines just doesn't go away.

It's all relative though. A large country should be able to find more people to count the ballots. If there is a distrust of voting machines, then why not get rid of voting machines? Paper works.

[race aficionado]

I have no such right :p

This is for us gringos, you brits had your chance.

So I did my job today - and here's looking forward for 4 more years.

:)

I Voted | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88034436@N06/8161997839/in/photostream)

[Tazio]

This election will be decided in the courts. :(

[Mark]

Much like in 2000 where a series of biased judges successively rule for their favourite.

[Tazio]

Possibly, there are still a lot of dirty tricks to be revealed. Unlike 2000 I think that there is a fair chance of criminal charges sticking this time around.

[ioan]

Anyone that votes for Obama deserves to be jobless, less money, and more of a laughing stock to the world.

Now I've got it, you want to drag everyone down to your level!

[race aficionado]

Some of us have no interest whatsoever and will be glad when its not dominating our news! :p

Most of us are all fed up with it - but it is important news, no matter where you live.

[Starter]

Some of us have no interest whatsoever and will be glad when its not dominating our news! :p
Some here feel the same way. Especially the last part. :p :

[Starter]

So I did my job today - and here's looking forward for 4 more years.

:)


I did also, but I'm looking for a slightly different outcome. Either way it works out, we'll go back to our usual business for the next four years before one of us looks to change it again.

[Alfa Fan]

Obama's going to win.

[wedge]

Can't believe I'm staying up for this s**t. Then again I'm just as bad when it comes to Le Mans.

I've got tabs on CNN, BBC, Fox News and The Daily Beast. Coverage on the latter is highly entertaining.

[Alfa Fan]

Just BBC for me. Might tune into some Fox if it looks like Romney's going to lose.

[race aficionado]

158 - 153
And the president jumps ahead in electoral votes!

Got to reach 270.

A way to go still ....

[race aficionado]

Both Romney & Ryan lose on their home states.

[race aficionado]

FOX still has them tied at 153

[Tazio]

easy does RA we'll be ok Florida is absurdly close

[race aficionado]

Demographics.
Us Latinos are going to be the difference once it's said and done.

Oh, and add to that women and African Americans.

Now it's 162-153 for Obama

FOX. Still stuck on 153-153.

Those faces on FOX are looking droopy.

[TyPat107]

Now Faux news is saying Romney leads while others report tie.

[race aficionado]

MSNBC is all chirpy and all smiles and FOX is gloomy and gloomier as time ticks by.

[Alfa Fan]

244 out of the 270 needed for Obama now. Looks like a formality.

[race aficionado]

11pm NYC time.

243-188 according to NBC

244-193 according to FOX

270 is the magic number.

Boy, those republican excuses are starting to spew out. And it's just the beginning of this drama scenario.

[race aficionado]

Yes!!!!!
A done deal!!!!!!!

[race aficionado]

274-203

Just past 11 am and Florida hadn't even been called.

I am not shy to say that I am SO happy with this news.

My respects to my republican fellow forum members.

[Alfa Fan]

Don't get too far ahead of yourself, in terms of officially called results its still 251-203.

[race aficionado]

Tell that to FOX news.
Even they just called it.
:)

[Tazio]

That's it the sitting President of the United States of America has been projected the winner :up:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSvH4s-4sCQ

danicafan is on suicide watch!

[Alfa Fan]

It's official now.

Obama wins Iowa, and the 2012 Presidential Election.

[Rollo]

It's official now.

More gridlock until the 2015 mid-terms.

[Tazio]

This just in, The Prez be talkin' to me personally:





Hide Details
FROM: Barack Obama
TO: Victor D'Xxxxx

Message flagged

Tuesday, November 6, 2012 8:32 PM








Victor --

I'm about to go speak to the crowd here in Chicago, but I wanted to thank you first.

I want you to know that this wasn't fate, and it wasn't an accident. You made this happen.

You organized yourselves block by block. You took ownership of this campaign five and ten dollars at a time. And when it wasn't easy, you pressed forward.

I will spend the rest of my presidency honoring your support, and doing what I can to finish what we started.

But I want you to take real pride, as I do, in how we got the chance in the first place.

Today is the clearest proof yet that, against the odds, ordinary Americans can overcome powerful interests.

There's a lot more work to do.

But for right now: Thank you.

Barack

[Tazio]

It's official now.

More gridlock until the 2015 mid-terms.
:s ailor: sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry :p :

[race aficionado]

It's official but now the republicans are not conceding Ohio.

It's tough to lose - its tough to let go.
Can't blame them but they will eventually concede.

[ShiftingGears]

danicafan is on suicide watch!

He's just waiting for someone to make the internet equivalent of an anti-Obama bumper sticker about the election result, so he can then copy and paste it in this thread.

[Tazio]

He's just waiting for someone to make the internet equivalent of an anti-Obama bumper sticker about the election result, so he can then copy and paste it in this thread.pml :rotflmao:

[Mia 01]

Congratulations to Obama and the american people!!

[race aficionado]

I'm going to sleep.
What a day!
Great speech by the president and a gracious concession speech by governor Romney.

Life goes on and Barcelona plays tomorrow.

I feel good.
:)