German Grand Prix Thread

[ShiftingGears]

To get the ball rolling, Romain Grosjean has copped a five-place grid penalty for Hockenheim, due to a gearbox having to be replaced. This guy seemingly can't catch a break.

Grosjean to take five-place grid penalty at Hockenheim after team discovers gearbox issue - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101167)

[Tazio]

Ouch!! That is going to affect my FGP :angryfire ;)
As for the race I am intrigued by the battle that is shaping up between Vettel, and Webber, as well as; if Ferrari can continue to improve, and if McLaren will rediscover their form.
Long range forecast...... FWIW..... rain
Weather Headlines - weather.com (http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Hockenheim+GMXX1608:1:GM)

[Tazio]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/drs-hockenheim-2012-703x886.gif


This DRS Zone should facilitate über passing :crazy:

[Tazio]

To get the ball rolling, Romain Grosjean has copped a five-place grid penalty for Hockenheim, due to a gearbox having to be replaced. This guy seemingly can't catch a break.

Grosjean to take five-place grid penalty at Hockenheim after team discovers gearbox issue - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101167)Add Rosberg to the list.
Rosberg to get five-place grid penalty after gearbox change ahead of German GP - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101304)

[jens]

Well, what can we say. Lotus is testing a new double DRS wing, so I wonder, how efficient will that prove to be. Can Lotus make one step forward and finally take a race win on genuine pace?

If it rains, well, Ferrari should be good. Red Bull should be competitive especially in dry. Wonder, how will McLaren go. This is a vital race for Hamilton to stay in the title fight. And McLaren must regain form to prevent other teams gaining momentum in the fight for P2 in WCC.

[Tazio]

Well stated on all points Jens. It appears that we may well have a quali, and race situation similar to Silverstone, wet for the former, and dry for the later. I also expect the results to be similar with the exception of McLaren being more competitive. I think it bodes well that Button seems to be comfortable in the MP4-27 in practice. As for Lotus I think their quali form will be ok but have reservations about their race pace. They were able to generate heat in their tires at Silverstone because of the high speed/load corners. Hockenheim is quite a different type of circuit, and the cold temps may affect them negatively. I think Red Bull should be very strong this weekend, although I expect Ferrari, McLaren and to a lesser degree Lotus to be in the fight. FI should also go well here IMO.

[Tazio]

Add Rosberg to the list.
Rosberg to get five-place grid penalty after gearbox change ahead of German GP - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101304)Add Webber to the list.

Red Bull's Mark Webber gets gearbox change penalty for German Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101341)

[pino]

Wet pole ? who will beat Lewis this time ? :p :

[rjbetty]

Hmmm, Radio 5 Live seems to have Golf or something on...

Also, does anyone know why James Allen has been replaced by Jonathan Legard? Did Allen fall out with BBC?

[rjbetty]

Oh good I've got 5 Live working, but I'm really wondering why it's Legard... But I'm just glad to have someone on! Beats the open.

[pino]

MS ? :s

[pino]

Rain arrived...

[Tazio]

:s ailor: snap http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif

[pino]

Amazing Alonso ! :D

[truefan72]

getting really tired of mclaren not being able to figure out how to get the car to perform in wet weather,
another disappointing qualy in 2012

[pino]

I agree with you truefan, especially considering how fast is/can be Lewis on wet track.He must be very annoyed about this...

[N4D13]

It's particularly surprising, given that they were looking just fine on Q2. Perhaps they just had trouble getting the full wets to work, as the intermediates seemed to be OK.

[Tazio]

McLaren have had problems switching on the inters but are ok on the full wets, really a little surprised Lewis didn't do better, but it was a bit of a crap shoot. TBH it was painful watching all of the cars in Q3 bumbling around a soaked track with dry setups. :grenade:

[donKey jote]

Wet pole ? who will beat Lewis this time ? :p :

Button, for example, and five others? :andrea:

[longisland]

It's another lottery in qualifying. Had it been a dry weather, the two Lotuses/Lotii will be up there and it will be Nico instead of Michael. The bulls are going to be strong regardless. Fred haters will continue to believe he got lucky again. Jenson finally out qualified Lewis. Let's hope they have the race pace on Sunday

[Dave B]

The GP2 race had the new style podium flags and interviews, just like at Silverstone, so I expect that will continue for F1.

[rjbetty]

I like Hamilton, and am not a fan of Alonso (I was a massive Fisichella fan too). But with increasingly less grudge, I am finding I have to give credit where it's due. He just keeps on surprising me with what he can do. I've always felt Alonso has been underrated actually. And I think he still is even now.

He surprised me in 2001 often beating (admittedly awful) Benettons, Prosts, Arrows, even Jaguar's and BAR's, including the great Michael beater Jacques Villeneuve (to think some people rate Hamilton on a par with only the 1997 champ is surely blasphemous).

In 2003, Alonso beat David Coulthard in the championship and remarkably got within a few points of Ralf Schumacher and even Rubens Barrichello in a Ferrari!!! :eek: Trulli managed just one 3rd place in 2003, in Hockenheim marginally ahead of Alonso. Alonso won in Hungary, and was well on course to win Australia, Brazil and Japan too! His drive in Spain that year was awesome.

Ok 2004 wasn't quite so stellar, but I think that was something to do with how amazing Jarno Trulli really could be. Because of this apparent weakness, it gave the impression he would have a hard time with Fisichella (just coming off a very strong 2004 where he floored Massa more than the statistics show) in 2005.

For Fernando's next trick, he demolished my all-time favourite driver (sob), though in 2005 even to this day I believe he did get help from Flav.
I anticipated a stronger comeback Fisichella for 2006, especially since Flav now seemed to be genuinely supporting him in the wake of Alonso's defection to McLaren. And suddenly Fisi had perfect reliability (funny that) except for the first race where I believe it was a genuine mistake. Anyway there was no excuse in 2006, Alonso outclassed his team-mate on pure performance with or without any sly stuff behind closed doors. He also beat Michael in a straight fight, Mano a mano. And yet people still thought Michael was the better driver... Astonishing stuff.

It says much for how great Fernando is that even in a disastrous 2007 season, he still scored 4 wins and came 1pt (2 really cos of countback against Kimi) of the title. He won twice in a nowhere Renault, and on one of those occassions without cheating. Fisi didn't get 1 podium in that car, and wouldn't have in 2008 either I believe. In 2009 scored ALL Renault's points - enough said.

Now he is surprising me again by leading the championship and scoring 2 poles in that car. People keep saying that Massa's in a slump. I tell you what guys, why don't you just man up like I did with Fisichella and just admit Alonso is better? :)

Massa simply isn't in his class full stop. Never was and never will be. (I highly doubt it anyway) :)

I forgot to say that Alonso also totally blew away champion Villeneuve when Jacques joined Renault at the end of 2004.

[rjbetty]

Michael needs some credit for getting the better of Rosberg in the wet. It will be interesting to see how the Mercedes drivers get on in the race tomorrow, given that when the positions are reversed as they kinda were in Bahrain, Michael still finishes only 16sec behind in the race. Let's see how close Nico can get to Michael in the race tomorrow.

[truefan72]

McLaren have had problems switching on the inters but are ok on the full wets, really a little surprised Lewis didn't do better, but it was a bit of a crap shoot. TBH it was painful watching all of the cars in Q3 bumbling around a soaked track with dry setups. :grenade:

but the Ferrari's (or should I say Alonso's car) seems to have it hooked up perfectly, and the RBR's seem to be just fine. In fact the only car that takes a significant step backwards in Q3 were the macs.
Oh well, at least I have DRS to look forward to tomorrow and Lewis giving it his all.

I forgot...congrats Alonso, it was another well deserved pole. The guy hasn't puting a foot wrong this year, and earlier on, when the car was not working, he manged to steal points left and right. Shame that the macs can't do that too.

[jens]

People keep saying that Massa's in a slump. I tell you what guys, why don't you just man up like I did with Fisichella and just admit Alonso is better? :)

Massa simply isn't in his class full stop. Never was and never will be. (I highly doubt it anyway) :)


I don't think anyone considers Massa to be in Alonso's class any more. Perhaps it was considered as a possibility before 2010, but not now. However, sometimes Massa has been so far behind Alonso that it couldn't have been described with any word other than "slump". Even if your team-mate is better, it doesn't mean you have to be miles behind, rather than just a little bit.

---

About qualifying. Didn't see it (again), but obviously wet weather suits Ferrari, hence Alonso managed to capitalize on the opportunity and take pole again. :) If it is a wet race, Alonso is favourite for the win. If it is dry, it will be between Alonso and Vettel. RBR could have a slight edge, depending on temperatures and how can anyone treat their tyres then.

Hülkenberg has been coming really strong as the season carries on. Like seen in 2010, he seems to be the kind of driver, who takes his time to adapt to car/regulations/etc. But once Nico is in the groove, he can be really fast as proven on many occasions in feeder categories. Di Resta has had his hands full since the start of the European season and Mercedes has a lot of thinking to do, which FI driver to choose, if they were to replace Schumacher.

Obviously the results of Sauber and Lotus are disappointing. McLaren. Well, doesn't really surprise any more, where they happen to be.

[A FONDO]

About qualifying. Didn't see it (again), but obviously wet weather suits Ferrari
I usually like your thoughts but this one is firmly incorrect. Download it from some torrent site and you'll see.

[truefan72]

I usually like your thoughts but this one is firmly incorrect. Download it from some torrent site and you'll see.

wet weather and inclement conditions in general do suit the ferrari
that is common knowledge

[A FONDO]

Conditions in Q3 today were so awful there was not such thing as "suitable car". Even in his best lap Alonso lost the line several times. And he also went in the pit in the middle of the session to chabge the tyres.

[gloomyDAY]

No one is on the forums. All anti-Alonso fans are pretty butt hurt. LOL!

[Zico]

I like Hamilton, and am not a fan of Alonso (I was a massive Fisichella fan too). But with increasingly less grudge, I am finding I have to give credit where it's due. He just keeps on surprising me with what he can do. I've always felt Alonso has been underrated actually. And I think he still is even now.

He surprised me in 2001 often beating (admittedly awful) Benettons, Prosts, Arrows, even Jaguar's and BAR's, including the great Michael beater Jacques Villeneuve (to think some people rate Hamilton on a par with only the 1997 champ is surely blasphemous).

In 2003, Alonso beat David Coulthard in the championship and remarkably got within a few points of Ralf Schumacher and even Rubens Barrichello in a Ferrari!!! :eek: Trulli managed just one 3rd place in 2003, in Hockenheim marginally ahead of Alonso. Alonso won in Hungary, and was well on course to win Australia, Brazil and Japan too! His drive in Spain that year was awesome.

Ok 2004 wasn't quite so stellar, but I think that was something to do with how amazing Jarno Trulli really could be. Because of this apparent weakness, it gave the impression he would have a hard time with Fisichella (just coming off a very strong 2004 where he floored Massa more than the statistics show) in 2005.

For Fernando's next trick, he demolished my all-time favourite driver (sob), though in 2005 even to this day I believe he did get help from Flav.
I anticipated a stronger comeback Fisichella for 2006, especially since Flav now seemed to be genuinely supporting him in the wake of Alonso's defection to McLaren. And suddenly Fisi had perfect reliability (funny that) except for the first race where I believe it was a genuine mistake. Anyway there was no excuse in 2006, Alonso outclassed his team-mate on pure performance with or without any sly stuff behind closed doors. He also beat Michael in a straight fight, Mano a mano. And yet people still thought Michael was the better driver... Astonishing stuff.

It says much for how great Fernando is that even in a disastrous 2007 season, he still scored 4 wins and came 1pt (2 really cos of countback against Kimi) of the title. He won twice in a nowhere Renault, and on one of those occassions without cheating. Fisi didn't get 1 podium in that car, and wouldn't have in 2008 either I believe. In 2009 scored ALL Renault's points - enough said.

Now he is surprising me again by leading the championship and scoring 2 poles in that car. People keep saying that Massa's in a slump. I tell you what guys, why don't you just man up like I did with Fisichella and just admit Alonso is better? :)

Massa simply isn't in his class full stop. Never was and never will be. (I highly doubt it anyway) :)

I forgot to say that Alonso also totally blew away champion Villeneuve when Jacques joined Renault at the end of 2004.


Why dont you come out of that Alonso 'Fanboy' closet? ;)

No, Im kidding.. I agree with you. His raw speed probably isn't any better than the rest of the big guns but he seems to be much better equiped in other areas, a more complete driver.. and that is why he is leading the WDC.


I'd only beg to differ on one point- Alonso is in a different league to Massa and not to take anything away from him but I do firmly believe Massa just hasn't been the same his accident.



McLaren are sounding optimistic for the win IF it is dry tomorow. I hope it is, they really need a good result here to stop the recent rot and I'd like to see Jenson and Lewis start moving up the table again in the WDC fight.

[DexDexter]

What's up with Grosjean, he was a second behind Kimi in Q1 and has seemed to struggle the whole weekend so far. That's kind of surprising since they've been very closely matched the whole year.

[A FONDO]

It started to rain just before Q2 and he lacks experience /or suitable approach on wet.

[Zico]

What's up with Grosjean, he was a second behind Kimi in Q1 and has seemed to struggle the whole weekend so far. That's kind of surprising since they've been very closely matched the whole year.

As Slowson says above^ ...and iirc he said his Kers stopped working.

[rjbetty]

Why dont you come out of that Alonso 'Fanboy' closet? ;)

Lol I hate his guts (well ok not that much). Everyone saw his nature in 2007 but I saw it in 2005-06 with Fisi. And he lied to the world 2 years ago at Hockenheim. But I have to say he's been so impressive this year, I almost have no grudge at all. I really hope if Webber, the McLarens or anyone else can't take the title, it will be Alonso rather than Vettel - I think he is SO much more deserving to become a triple champion first. Let's see Vettel do what Alonso did in Malaysia and Valencia.


No, Im kidding.. I agree with you. His raw speed probably isn't any better than the rest of the big guns but he seems to be much better equiped in other areas, a more complete driver.. and that is why he is leading the WDC.

Yeah I totally agree. He even said at the start of last year that he reckoned Hamilton was faster than him, but he seems to accept that fine cos he believes he surpasses Hamilton in other areas. I think maybe Schumacher at his best was capable of a little more raw pace too.



I'd only beg to differ on one point- Alonso is in a different league to Massa and not to take anything away from him but I do firmly believe Massa just hasn't been the same his accident.

Ok I'll go with that definitely. But he himself says it hasn't affected him - that's the main reason I tend not to take it into account much. But then it was a horrible accident and I know from what Stirling Moss has said how much it can affect you... And I agree with jens that yeah Massa is definitely better than his huge slump performances.


McLaren are sounding optimistic for the win IF it is dry tomorrow. I hope it is, they really need a good result here to stop the recent rot and I'd like to see Jenson and Lewis start moving up the table again in the WDC fight.

I hope McLaren win tomorrow too and get back in the title race. Wow to see myself typing that having so ardently supported Schumacher and Eddie Irvine in the late 90's...!! :)

[Koz]

Kimi was blazing in Q1... And very slow in the wet.

Perhaps Lotus have gambled on a very dry setup for the race?
I can see a podium. :D

[gloomyDAY]

Kimi was blazing in Q1... And very slow in the wet.

Perhaps Lotus have gambled on a very dry setup for the race?
I can see a podium. :D Oh! Nice...

[F1boat]

I hope for a good result for Michael :) I wouldn't mind victory number 3 for Fernando!

[Tazio]

Perez slapped with 5 place grid drop for blocking Kimi and Fred in quali!
Sergio Perez has been handed a five-place grid penalty for blocking during qualifying for the German Grand Prix.
Having originally qualified in 12th place, Perez will now start 17th following the decision to penalise him. The punishment is for blocking both Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen during the Q2 session as rain fell - with Raikkonen particularly vocal over his team radio over the incident - and the stewards explained it had taken the action due to Perez having twice impeded other drivers.

Sergio Perez penalised five places for blocking | German Grand Prix | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1 (http://en.espnf1.com/germany/motorsport/story/84850.html?CMP=OTC-RSS)


Red Bull engine mapping under investigation by FIA

Red Bull is under investigation by the FIA this morning after technical delegate Jo Bauer reported that he found an engine mapping irregularity.

Rivals confirm that the matter clearly relates to off throttle blowing of the diffuser, which is not permitted this year.

A technical report from Bauer said: “Having examined the engine base torque map of car numbers 01 and 02 it became apparent that the maximum torque output of both engines is significantly less in the mid rpm range than previously seen for these engines at other events.

“In my opinion this is therefore in breach of Article 5.5.3 of the 2012 F1 Technical Regulations as the engines are able to deliver more torque at a given engine speed in the mid rpm range.

“Furthermore this new torque map will artificially alter the aerodynamic characteristics of both cars which is also in contravention on TD 036-11.”

Red Bull engine mapping under investigation by FIA | Adam Cooper's F1 Blog (http://adamcooperf1.com/2012/07/22/red-bull-engine-mapping-under-investigation-by-fia/)
My gut feeling is that Red Bull will get a slap on the wrist, however I believe they should have to take a grid penalty :arrows:

[Zico]

Red Bull engine mapping under investigation by FIA

Red Bull engine mapping under investigation by FIA | Adam Cooper's F1 Blog (http://adamcooperf1.com/2012/07/22/red-bull-engine-mapping-under-investigation-by-fia/)
My gut feeling is that Red Bull will get a slap on the wrist, however I believe they should have to take a grid penalty :arrows:


...and here was me thinking that it was the extremely well behaved, non twitchy Ferrari that looked like it had a 'wet' engine map!

[F1boat]

Big news, we have to wait and see what happens. I won't be surprised if they race under appeal.

[Tazio]

...and here was me thinking that it was the extremely well behaved, non twitchy Ferrari that looked like it had a 'wet' engine map!
German motorsport-total.com reports that other teams taped the Red Bull's engine sound during qualifying to have evidence, so this whole thing maybe started with an accusation of other teams?

[i_max2k2]

Big news, we have to wait and see what happens. I won't be surprised if they race under appeal.

And that would honestly suck, you cheat and then race, every team should try that.

[Zico]

No further action will be taken according to Sky.

[Malbec]

The engine mapping stuff sounds like something that would require more than a morning to establish whether there was cheating going on and the allegations are pretty serious. This is going to be a lot worse than the hole in the floor affair if proven true.

[Dave B]

So they were doing something iffy, but not against the letter of the rules. Fair enough, that's what the last 6 decades have been about!

[A FONDO]

Dont post links from amateur sites trying to gain ad impressions.

[F1boat]

So they were doing something iffy, but not against the letter of the rules. Fair enough, that's what the last 6 decades have been about!

+1

[Robinho]

expect a loophole closing in the next couple of weeks after the stewards didn't accept all of Red Bulls arguments, but found that they were not in contravention of the direct wording of the rule

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

[Tazio]

Dont post links from amateur sites trying to gain ad impressions.Was this directed at me?
Do you call this an amature site?
Red Bull's engine maps referred to German Grand Prix stewards by FIA - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101403)
Well fair is fair. I just hope this isn't yet another case of gutless stewards.

https://p.twimg.com/AyZNXsiCEAAqdHR.jpg:large

[Zico]

Incredible..

Can you imagine what would have happened if it was McLaren (who actually make the ECU) were found to have their own wet spec engine maps?

So different engine maps are allowed ? I dont get it... Im gonna have to have another look at this years tech regs. :/

[Tazio]

Incredible..

Can you imagine what would have happened if it was McLaren (who actually make the ECU) were found to have their own wet spec engine maps?

So different engine maps are allowed ? I dont get it... Im gonna have to have another look at this years tech regs. :/This complaint was not about a "wet map" but a rather technical aspect throttle blowing in relation to torque.

[rjbetty]

Incidentally, amazing how 100th GP's almost never seem to go well!

Hamilton's having a disaster, and Kovalainen is behind his team-mate again...


ALSO, BBC 5 Live keep bringing in the open, the Tour de France and more into their F1 coverage. Legard must be obliged by the bosses to talk about these things too. This must be why the Beeb have chosen him over James Allen.

[longisland]

Seb, Lewis is faster than you. Either Mclaren has signed a contract with Lewis or Lewis is auditioning for the Ferrari drive

[donKey jote]

http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif

[pino]

Love the Italian anthem :p :

[jens]

Good fight for the win, but Alonso controlled the race pretty nicely. Whenever someone tried to threaten, he always had something in reserve to respond. Button challenging for the win? Didn't really expect that one before the race. Good to see him back in form. Red Bull isn't really as powerful this season as some may have suggested after Valencia. Like in Canada, Vettel was chasing Alonso all race, but couldn't really threaten.

Räikkönen and Sauber had a good race after a disappointing qualifying. Certainly a relief for Sauber after several bad weekend with lost opportunities. A weekend to forget for Grosjean, perhaps he isn't used to starting so far behind on the grid. Expected more from Force India. Williams/Maldonado were surprisingly slow in race trim after showing so much speed in past races.

Mercedes seems to be about where they were in past seasons - minor points. Caterham looked quite decent I have to say, not far behind established teams. Webber? Well, looks like he would certainly prefer the German GP to take place at the Nürburgring, where he is so much more competitive.

[AndyL]

Things looking more positive for McLaren - good pace in the car, slick pit work, and played the strategy cards well.

[rjbetty]

Yeah I just noticed Maldonado was 15th from 5th on the grid! Also, what happened to Webber today?! Michael was 20sec ahead of Rosberg, similar to the 16sec gap Nico had on Michael in Bahrain, when Schu started from the back and Nico towards the front.

Hulkenberg again outdoing di Resta, 11sec up the road today.

Pleased for Jenson.

I don't wasnt to see Vettel keep his place, or lose ONLY one. His fist shaking this weekend hasn't been impressive.

[donKey jote]

Love the Italian anthem :p :

at least you can sing to it :p

[donKey jote]

"un día perfecto"

[Tazio]

That was a real edge of your seat nail biter :dork:

[A FONDO]

Wasnt nice to see the frontrunners being overtaken by lapped cars.... how slow do they drive to preserve these tyres? The first one to try a 3-stop strategy with pedal to the floor from the start to the finish will get my full support for the rest of the season :p

[N4D13]

Wasnt nice to see the frontrunners being overtaken by lapped cars.... how slow do they drive to preserve these tyres? The first one to try a 3-stop strategy with pedal to the floor from the start to the finish will get my full support for the rest of the season :p
Did they get overtaking by anyone other than Hamilton? It's obvious that Lewis is not your standard lapped car, specially considering that he had just pitted for fresh tyres.

Watching Alonso defend himself from Hamilton was priceless, even if it only meant using a lot of KERS on the straight as to avoid being overtaken. :p

Edit: all right, they were overtaken by other lapped cars as well. My bad. :P

[truefan72]

wow Horner is spewing nonsense in the Sky interview,
crying about Hamilton passing Vettel

just absurd talk

[truefan72]

I guess nonsense is contagious in RBR
Vettel with a ridiculous reasoning for his out of bounds pass

if the FIa and stewards are consistent then Vettel gets a time penalty just like Hamilton got in Spa
Or Hamilton in Magny Course, where he got a drive through for "apparently" passing Webber off track
anything less would be an absolute joke

[Whyzars]

...how slow do they drive to preserve these tyres?

Fuel never seems to be mentioned by commentators these days but I think there is plenty of scope for conserving fuel to be mistaken for conserving tyres.

I haven't heard yet why Hamilton retired but maybe it was because he burned so much fuel challenging Vettel and Alonso that he couldn't finish the race. We'll never know though because the fuel status of the cars is kept pretty much secret from spectators. Variations in performance that is being blamed on tyre degradation could just as easily be a low fuel management phase.

Maybe its time for the remaining fuel and the current fuel setting to be displayed alongside the KERS when they put a drivers display up on screen.



The first one to try a 3-stop strategy with pedal to the floor from the start to the finish will get my full support for the rest of the season :p

I would think that bringing back refueling might be the only way we will ever see F1 cars being driven at 100% again. Ditching the tyre rules and relaxing the engine rules could help too of course. ;)

[truefan72]

I missed the start of the race and watching it again, I wonder why the safety car did not come out before the start of lap 2 ?

[Ranger]

I missed the start of the race and watching it again, I wonder why the safety car did not come out before the start of lap 2 ?

I have not a clue, the debris was pretty much as bad as it was in Valencia IMO.

[donKey jote]

because if it had we'd have all been whinging about unnecessary SC deployment for today's pussy drivers yada yada :p

[truefan72]

because if it had we'd have all been whinging about unnecessary SC deployment for today's pussy drivers yada yada :p

I wouldn't have, and if somebody got hurt, neither would you :\

[donKey jote]

I presume you didn't notice the "yada yada :p " bit :dozey:

[donKey jote]

I have not a clue, the debris was pretty much as bad as it was in Valencia IMO.

and we all know what Vettel said about that deployment, for example :p

(contrary to the opinion of most experts and to mine too for that matter :) )

[Tazio]

wow Horner is spewing nonsense in the Sky interview,
crying about Hamilton passing Vettel

just absurd talk
I'm generally a big advocate for back markers getting out of the way of the leaders, but this time I'm on The Boss' side. All he had to do is get passed Alonso (who probably would have let him go anyway if he got close), and If a safety car came out their would have been a real chance for Hammy to score some points. Vettel and Horner are off the freakin' hook. This is called racing, and I hate hearing these pussified excuses. Vettels stock just went down in my way of thinking :down:


"That was not nice of him [Hamilton]. I don't see the point why he is trying to race us," Vettel complained.

"If he wants to go fast then he can drop back, find a gap and go fast there.

"But it's a bit stupid to disturb the leaders. He was a lap down so I don't see the point anyway. I think that potentially lost us the position to Jenson because soon after that we pitted, I think only two or three laps after that."

[jens]

Reminds me 1993 Suzuka, when Senna was complaining about lapped Irvine overtaking him.

Though it has to be said Hamilton's pass distracted Vettel's Alonso challenge a bit - he dropped a second or two further adrift.

[truefan72]

I presume you didn't notice the "yada yada :p " bit :dozey:

lol red mist...my apologies

[donKey jote]

no probs
red mist? I thought you were silver mist ! :p

[AndyL]

Fuel never seems to be mentioned by commentators these days but I think there is plenty of scope for conserving fuel to be mistaken for conserving tyres.

Yes Whitmarsh did say afterwards that Button was saving fuel at the end. I guess that's what "yellow G3" meant! Just watching the BBC highlights it seems Schumacher was too.

[Tazio]

I finally watched race on HDTV.
Did I mention that Alonso had a brilliant race? :beer: ;)
BTW Vettel’s immaturity and lack of grasp of the rules (i.e. Hamilton, and off track excursions) looked even more childish than when I watched it live on a 3x5 inch screen :p : :dork: :champion:

[steveaki13]

Vettel and Red Bull need to exept things that happen at all levels of motorsport.

It would be the same if it were Mclaren, Ferrari or HRT. If a driver is a lap or more down, and are faster than a car a lap ahead they can pass as long as they don't push said car off or cause undue problems like crashing.

Also if they then hold up that car again, then they will get blue flags again. Simple really.

Doesn't matter if its a 15th placed unlapping against a leader or a car a lap ahead in 14th. Same rules.

Same as you get same rules if your a leader lapping 20th place. Or 17th lapping 18th place.

[steveaki13]

Watching the start again.

I have in the past said that the SC is deployed to easily, but compared to the tiny piece in Valencia the stewards should have put out a SC.

That Debris was all over the track with no chance to avoid it. Also on a fast piece of race track.

If that had happened. Then Lewis would have been on the back of the pack.

Why do the stewards do one thing at one event and then do nothing in a later event. Any consistancy in stewarding and Lewis would have had a chance of points. Bizzare decision making.

[Wasted Talent]

Incredible..

Can you imagine what would have happened if it was McLaren (who actually make the ECU) were found to have their own wet spec engine maps?

So different engine maps are allowed ? I dont get it... Im gonna have to have another look at this years tech regs. :/

McLaren? FIA: "$50m fine!!" ......

Ferrari? FIA: "No problem, just carry on...."

Red Bull? FIA: "Doh, you are smarter than the FIA in reading the regs so we will have to have a re-think"....

HRT? Team: "Are you sure we have a torque curve"??

WT

[Malbec]

Vettel and Red Bull need to exept things that happen at all levels of motorsport.

I really didn't understand why Vettel and Alonso made such a big fuss over Lewis. They were racing each other, not him. He was quicker than they were, why didn't they just let him by like Kobayashi let Vettel steam past and carry on racing each other? The most stupid outcome possible would have been either Vettel or Alonso losing a top finishing place because they ended up having an accident with Lewis, and doing what Alonso did which was to fight hard to keep Lewis behind, increasing tyre wear etc was also silly.

Otherwise a fantastic race, very interesting to see how the relative performance of the differing cars changed with the temperature. Also not a great day for teammates, Massa, Webber, Grosjean and Lewis all had very disappointing days.

[steveaki13]

I really didn't understand why Vettel and Alonso made such a big fuss over Lewis. They were racing each other, not him. He was quicker than they were, why didn't they just let him by like Kobayashi let Vettel steam past and carry on racing each other? The most stupid outcome possible would have been either Vettel or Alonso losing a top finishing place because they ended up having an accident with Lewis, and doing what Alonso did which was to fight hard to keep Lewis behind, increasing tyre wear etc was also silly.

Otherwise a fantastic race, very interesting to see how the relative performance of the differing cars changed with the temperature. Also not a great day for teammates, Massa, Webber, Grosjean and Lewis all had very disappointing days.

This

Agree with you 100%

[truefan72]

no probs
red mist? I thought you were silver mist ! :p

when we are angry we all see red ;)

yeah. but silver blood runs through these veins...for now

[tfp]

Is there a driver and donkey thread?

Donkey - Possibly Massa for losing his front wing and leaving debris over the track, but this is a minor donkey. No real donkeys IMO.

Driver of the race - Pastor, for not crashing into anybody!

[kfzmeister]

Is there a driver and donkey thread?

Donkey - Possibly Massa for losing his front wing and leaving debris over the track, but this is a minor donkey. No real donkeys IMO.

Driver of the race - Pastor, for not crashing into anybody!

Donkey: Vettel. Wide off the track constantly, Boneheaded maneuver on Button=cost him points. I rest my case
Driver: Do we really need to ask this one?? Lmao....

[mstillhere]

"Ferrari? FIA: "No problem, just carry on...."


Are you having difficulties in accepting that a non-Italian team is actually cheating in F1 and hence your dig at Ferrari?

[mstillhere]

Donkey: Vettel for passing Button illegally Excuse: "It was the only way I could pass him"

Driver: Alonso Under pressure starting from lap 1 and winning despite not driving the fastest car on the track.

[F1boat]

when we are angry we all see red ;)

yeah. but silver blood runs through these veins...for now

More like chrome blood, as now Mercedes are the silver arrows...

[jens]

I really didn't understand why Vettel and Alonso made such a big fuss over Lewis. They were racing each other, not him. He was quicker than they were, why didn't they just let him by like Kobayashi let Vettel steam past and carry on racing each other? The most stupid outcome possible would have been either Vettel or Alonso losing a top finishing place because they ended up having an accident with Lewis, and doing what Alonso did which was to fight hard to keep Lewis behind, increasing tyre wear etc was also silly.


The problem was that Button was close behind Alonso and Vettel. And there was obviously a suspicion that once Hamilton overtakes, he could start holding up the leaders in order to allow Button getting closer. I guess that's why Alonso wanted to keep Hamilton behind and Vettel was displeased to see Hamilton passing him, compromising him a little bit and enabling Button to get closer.

It wasn't just Hamilton racing the leaders, while a lap down. There was a general McLaren interest in the game as well. I don't think anyone wants to see in the future that lapped cars start helping their team-mates to win. And then we start finding excuses a'la "but he was genuinely quick, so he was right to race the leaders". Even though drivers on different laps don't race each other.

[steveaki13]

I hope people aren't suggesting Alonso doesn't have the fastest car simply because he started the season in a problematic car. It is possible Ferrari have developed better than any other team to give him a car capable of poles and wins. Last season we had weekends where Alonso was 1 or 2 tenths off the Red Bull and his talent alone didn't boost his performance to close that gap.

It's not in any way a dig or an attempt to devalue his win yesterday but I think Alonso is a very good driver, arguably the best, and is performing at a level beyond anything he's done in the past in a very good car. I don't think you'd find many in the paddock or knowledgable enthusiasts world wide who think the Ferrari is the same car it was in Melbourne. It's certainly not the third or fourth best car on the grid. You give Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton etc a car very capable of winning and they usually convert.

I think you're right. The Ferrari is miles better than at the beggining of the season. Then it was Qualifying in 10th-15th or just getting into the top 10. Then Alonso was driving the wheels off the car to score big points or even win in Malaysia.

However now the car is an equal Red Bull and maybe faster than the Mclaren on some circuits.

However yesterday the fact that Vettel and Button caught him and sat behind him through alot of the race, led me to think either Fernando was pacing himself or for this race maybe Red Bull & Mclaren were slightly faster.

Whatever the reason Fernando had them both in his pocket.

But I agree with you that the Ferrari is now on par with the other two, and therefore has improved a massive amount

[wedge]

Article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations:


maximum accelerator travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed

Cheeky buggers/clever clogs for finding the loophole!

Reminds me of a recent V8SC meeting in Hamilton whereby Paul Morris stinted a car with both soft and hard compounds on it. You're supposed to run both compounds during a race but were not fully explicit how in the regs.

[N4D13]

As for whether the Ferrari is actually on par with the other cars, it's difficult to say, but I don't think it's just as fast as either McLaren or Red Bull. Alonso's poles have come in (very) wet and difficult qualifying sessions, so it's not that the car would make a huge difference. In Silverstone, Alonso's Ferrari couldn't get the soft tyres to work, and in Hockenheim, the McLaren seemed to be the fastest car, even if Button couldn't convert that into a win. I believe Jenson would have won the race if he hadn't had such a poor starting position.

[donKey jote]

I believe Jenson would have won the race if he hadn't had such a poor starting position.

I believe Jenson would have won the race if he hadn't been Jenson :p :andrea:

[odykas]

I believe Jenson would have won the race if he hadn't been Jenson :p :andrea:

If Jenson could overtake then he would be Lewis not Jenson :laugh:

[F1boat]

If Jenson could overtake then he would be Lewis not Jenson :laugh:

Yeah, that's why last year Jenson overtook lots of people without crashing into them like a moron.

[Garry Walker]

You can't tarnish the whole of Hamilton's F1 career based on a few races from 2011. Are you not at least a little impressed by the vast majority of Hamilton's successful overtakes this year and before? How about 2010 where Lewis made more overtakes than anybody and it was Jenson struggling with pace? Its also rather disrespectful to refer to a very talented driver as a 'moron'. :rolleyes:

Why are you even wasting your time with that guy?

[Malbec]

The problem was that Button was close behind Alonso and Vettel. And there was obviously a suspicion that once Hamilton overtakes, he could start holding up the leaders in order to allow Button getting closer. I guess that's why Alonso wanted to keep Hamilton behind and Vettel was displeased to see Hamilton passing him, compromising him a little bit and enabling Button to get closer.

It wasn't just Hamilton racing the leaders, while a lap down. There was a general McLaren interest in the game as well. I don't think anyone wants to see in the future that lapped cars start helping their team-mates to win. And then we start finding excuses a'la "but he was genuinely quick, so he was right to race the leaders". Even though drivers on different laps don't race each other.

All of which explains why Vettel was upset but not Alonso. The Spaniard had Vettel as a cushion behind him keeping Jenson away. Also if Lewis had meddled with their races he'd have risked significant penalties, ignoring blue flags would have been the minimum. As it was Alonso IMO did compromise his own race by working so hard to keep Lewis behind.

[Zico]

All of which explains why Vettel was upset but not Alonso. The Spaniard had Vettel as a cushion behind him keeping Jenson away. Also if Lewis had meddled with their races he'd have risked significant penalties, ignoring blue flags would have been the minimum. As it was Alonso IMO did compromise his own race by working so hard to keep Lewis behind.

Imagine the situation if Lewis had got past Alonso then caught the car in front of him... Lewis could have been 'held up' by the car in front that he was racing, long enough to allow Jenson to close right up on Alonso, blue flags would probably be shown to Lewis who would in turn could have rightfully claimed that he was the quickest on the track up until he'd caught the car in front etc etc... that would have been one strange situation for the stewards to deal with!

[wedge]

Also if Lewis had meddled with their races he'd have risked significant penalties, ignoring blue flags would have been the minimum. As it was Alonso IMO did compromise his own race by working so hard to keep Lewis behind.

Blue flags weren't even shown and quite rightly so. At that phase of the race, with new tyres he was significantly quicker to the point he headed off into the distance.

I'd say Vettel compromised himself more than Alonso. Vettel was more desperate to keep Hamilton at bay whereas Alonso in a cool and mature manner let Hamiton pass.

[Tazio]

Would someone please produce a link where Fred is quoted "causing a fuss" about having Hamiliton trying to unlap himself :dozey:
In the immortal words of Valve Bounce "Link Please"!! :bounce:

even when the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton was racing with the race leader Fernando Alonso, not for position, but to try and un-lap himself, Alonso refused to be critical of what the Brit was doing.

'I knew that if Lewis was close enough with the DRS and trying to overtake, I had no problem to leave the space, I knew he was not in the race. We didn't want to risk anything. For me it was a good position to have Hamilton between me and Sebastian. Alonso told Autosport Magazine.

'Having Hamilton there it meant Sebastian was 2.5s behind approaching the pitstop, so I tried to keep Lewis there.'
Skip down to the Red Bull garage and Red Bull and Sebastian Vettel held a completely different view.

Despite the fact that what Lewis Hamilton did was perfectly legal, Red Bull and Vettel slammed the actions of the McLaren driver.

'That was not nice of Lewis. I don't see why he was racing us, If he wants to go fast he should drop back and find a gap. It was stupid as he was a lap down.' Vettel said.



Vital F1 - Vettel & Alonso disagree over Hamilton (http://www.vitalf1.com/article.asp?a=1155)
Or is this another case of pewter mist :laugh:

[Tazio]

I really didn't understand why Vettel and Alonso made such a big fuss over Lewis. They were racing each other, not him. He was quicker than they were, why didn't they just let him by like Kobayashi let Vettel steam past and carry on racing each other? The most stupid outcome possible would have been either Vettel or Alonso losing a top finishing place because they ended up having an accident with Lewis, and doing what Alonso did which was to fight hard to keep Lewis behind, increasing tyre wear etc was also silly.

Well... I'm waiting!!

Alonso acknowledged that Vettel's dice with Hamilton had been handy for him, and that he would have swiftly let the McLaren past if necessary.

Vettel critical of Hamilton's "stupid" move during the German Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101413)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSsuohepbVk

:s ailor: Now do you get it? http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif

[Hawkmoon]

The potential for Hamilton to create mischief in this situtaion was huge. He was legally allowed to unlap himself. He was also legally obliged to obey the blue flags. Hamilton could have unlapped himself, allowed himself to get lapped again, unlapped himself etc and made a mess of Alonso or Vettel's races all within the rules. Hamilton didn't do this but I'm sure the thought crossed the mind of somebody in the McLaren team. How do the stewards deal with such a situation? Hamilton would have been within his rights to do it even if it wasn't particulalrly sporting. To aid his teammate he simply had to break the Alonso or Vettel's rhythm which dicing with a lapped car woulld surely have done.

[Tazio]

How do the stewards deal with such a situation?
With a black flag!! :dozey:
If he passed Alonso and slowed down that would last for precisely three coners, and then he would see a black flag and probably a suspension if it was really egregious. Really Hawk that is utter nonsense, to say nothing of the fact that that just isn't the way The Boss rolls! No need to bust out the red mist up in here ;)

[Malbec]

Would someone please produce a link where Fred is quoted "causing a fuss" about having Hamiliton trying to unlap himself :dozey:
In the immortal words of Valve Bounce "Link Please"!! :bounce:

Vital F1 - Vettel & Alonso disagree over Hamilton (http://www.vitalf1.com/article.asp?a=1155)
Or is this another case of pewter mist :laugh:

Oh dear, not you again.

To save your blood pressure I meant that Alonso was making a fuss on track for a while trying to keep Hamilton behind him. Hence the comments about compromising his race, tyres etc (small clue for you there).

I don't generally follow post-race comments so I have no idea what Alonso or Vettel had to say about the whole thing.

[Malbec]

The potential for Hamilton to create mischief in this situtaion was huge. He was legally allowed to unlap himself. He was also legally obliged to obey the blue flags. Hamilton could have unlapped himself, allowed himself to get lapped again, unlapped himself etc and made a mess of Alonso or Vettel's races all within the rules. Hamilton didn't do this but I'm sure the thought crossed the mind of somebody in the McLaren team. How do the stewards deal with such a situation? Hamilton would have been within his rights to do it even if it wasn't particulalrly sporting. To aid his teammate he simply had to break the Alonso or Vettel's rhythm which dicing with a lapped car woulld surely have done.

Ever so slightly far fetched don't you think, and if a lapped car interfered with frontrunners deliberately in this way I would have thought blue flags would have been the least of the penalties put on them. He'd have risked being penalised into the next race.

I'm surprised people haven't suggested that Lewis could/should have deliberately collided with Alonso and/or Vettel, it would have been a lot easier than some of the theories I've seen suggested so far...

[F1boat]

He could have also collided him because he tends to collide with people... it was a dangerous, disgusting move, even if legal, IMO.

[Tazio]

Oh dear, not you again.

To save your blood pressure I meant that Alonso was making a fuss on track for a while trying to keep Hamilton behind him. Hence the comments about compromising his race, tyres etc (small clue for you there).

I don't generally follow post-race comments so I have no idea what Alonso or Vettel had to say about the whole thing.No worries this time chief ;) I actually realized after my rant that you were about the only one making sense in that convesation I came very late to. Humble apollogies :p :

[Malbec]

No worries this time chief ;) I actually realized after my rant that you were about the only one making sense in that convesation I came very late to. Humble apollogies :p :

NP!

[Mia 01]

I´m so glad Kimi got one fake podium :)

Lewis did a good job with the car he got, disturbing your main rivals can´t be bad at the end of the day.

[SGWilko]

He could have also collided him because he tends to collide with people... it was a dangerous, disgusting move, even if legal, IMO.

Wow, what's your address? I will send you a new keyboard as I suspect you really punched the keys for that little gem! ;)

[kfzmeister]

No worries this time chief ;) I actually realized after my rant that you were about the only one making sense in that convesation I came very late to. Humble apollogies :p :

And you mentioned my spelling? Lmao. Not only that, but how about sentence structure???

[Zico]

He could have also collided him because he tends to collide with people... it was a dangerous, disgusting move, even if legal, IMO.

I heard Lewis on the radio say that there was no way his tyres were gonna last at that pace and judging from Whitmarshes wry smile Its clearly obvious that Lewis was sent back out to try and help out Button by interfering with the race between the front duo, yes it may be a bit unsporting, but is such a strategy really 'dangerous and disgusting' as you put it? A bit harsh Imo, I have no doubts whatsover that any other team and driver on the grid would have done the exact same thing...

[Tazio]

And you mentioned my spelling? Lmao. Not only that, but how about sentence structure???I thought you said you weren't keeping score slick? If you must know the only reason I corrected your spelling was to let you off the hook for trying to call me a Fairy, but you weren't paying attention when you ran it through "word" so it came out “ferries” which is understandable if your first language is not English
you punk @ss b!tch :)

[donKey jote]

fairy muff

[kfzmeister]

you punk @ss b!tch :)

Bwahahahahahaaaa :rotflmao:

[F1boat]

I heard Lewis on the radio say that there was no way his tyres were gonna last at that pace and judging from Whitmarshes wry smile Its clearly obvious that Lewis was sent back out to try and help out Button by interfering with the race between the front duo, yes it may be a bit unsporting, but is such a strategy really 'dangerous and disgusting' as you put it? A bit harsh Imo, I have no doubts whatsover that any other team and driver on the grid would have done the exact same thing...

The fact that they used such strategy in the Silvester Stalone "Driven" says it all, really ;) And SGWilko, the move was too pathetic even to anger me ;)

[Tazio]

I heard Lewis on the radio say that there was no way his tyres were gonna last at that pace and judging from Whitmarshes wry smile Its clearly obvious that Lewis was sent back out to try and help out Button by interfering with the race between the front duo, yes it may be a bit unsporting, but is such a strategy really 'dangerous and disgusting' as you put it? A bit harsh Imo, I have no doubts whatsover that any other team and driver on the grid would have done the exact same thing...Unless Ioan's Pizza delivery boys have moved on to McLaren, I would think that Whitmarsh wanted him out there for desperately needed data colection specific to the driving style of The Boss, which is hard charging and quite different than Button's. But that would not feed the tabloid frenzy that pervades the Italian, Spanish, and British mindset :down:

[Zico]

Unless Ioan's Pizza delivery boys have moved on to McLaren, I would think that Whitmarsh wanted him out there for desperately needed data colection specific to the driving style of The Boss, which is hard charging and quite different than Button's. But that would not feed the tabloid frenzy that pervades the Italian, Spanish, and British mindset :down:


Kudos to you for looking for the best in people, you are a better man than me... or maybe you just didn't see Whitmarsh's face when the Sky comentators asked him about 'team play' re- Lewis passing Vettel ?

The last 15 secs or so on this video. ;)

Video of the Day: Whitmarsh on Vettel-Button pass (http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/424215/Video_of_the_Day_Whitmarsh_on_VettelButton_pass/)

[truefan72]

He could have also collided him because he tends to collide with people... it was a dangerous, disgusting move, even if legal, IMO.

LOL :rolleyes:
what a laughable post, I'm almost tempted to include it in my sig for the hilarity

no..tell me how you really feel

1. I distinctly remember Kubice a few years ago unlapping himself, where was your outrage?
2. I remember other drivers in the last 2 decades either unlapping themsleves or keeping pace a lap down between other drivers
3. If vettel was quicker than the mclaren he would have closed up and repassed him
4. Even before hamilton came into the picture, Alonso started pulling away from vettel

[Tazio]

Kudos to you for looking for the best in people, you are a better man than me... or maybe you just didn't see Whitmarsh's face when the Sky comentators asked him about 'team play' re- Lewis passing Vettel ?

The last 15 secs or so on this video. ;)

Video of the Day: Whitmarsh on Vettel-Button pass (http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/424215/Video_of_the_Day_Whitmarsh_on_VettelButton_pass/)What is your point? Whitmarsh always has that smile on his face. Why would he say he sent Hamilton out to collect data, which makes it sound like Hamilton isn't a racer? In fact he said explicitly that he sent him out to race.
Find me a quote where he says he sent him out to contravene the rules, or at least to affect Finger boy, or Eyebrow man's race :s ailor:, or even to help Button, and then you will have something. :confused: I do understand why you feel the way you do, but that interview was staged for what I can only refer to, (and you must realize I'm an old guy and I'm really only interested in the competition, as are most evolved Americans my age in regard to viewing sports) as a juicy bit of controversy. I admire many things about your culture but your obsession with the tabloid aspect of sports is alien to the Southern California/American culture that I grew up in.
Peace my man :)

[Zico]

What is your point? Whitmarsh always has that smile on his face. Why would he say he sent Hamilton out to collect data, which makes it sound like Hamilton isn't a racer? In fact he said explicitly that he sent him out to race.
Find me a quote where he says he sent him out to contravene the rules, or at least to affect Finger boy, or Eyebrow man's race :s ailor:, or even to help Button, and then you will have something. :confused: I do understand why you feel the way you do, but that interview was staged for what I can only refer to, (and you must realize I'm an old guy and I'm really only interested in the competition, as are most evolved Americans my age in regard to viewing sports) as a juicy bit of controversy. I admire many things about your culture but your obsession with the tabloid aspect of sports is alien to the Southern California/American culture that I grew up in.
Peace my man :)


There is no direct quote, and nor would there be in such a situation. Lewis had earlier said on the radio that he thought he should retire then Whitmarsh said something along the lines of "its legal.. and Lewis wanted to go back out and race" (smirking) eh?.. which doesn't really stack up. Whether they actualy did is debatable but to the pessimist in me it looks like interfering with the leading duo's race had at least been considered... just a personal opinion. Peace to you also. :)

[Tazio]

Don't you think he was very possibly saying that it is alright to un-lap yourself in reply to Hamilton saying that there was no reason to stay out because he was a lap down? That is how I would read it having heard Hamilton say he wanted to retire.

[Zico]

Don't you think he was very possibly saying that it is alright to un-lap yourself in reply to Hamilton saying that there was no reason to stay out because he was a lap down? That is how I would read it having heard Hamilton say he wanted to retire.


It has happened before, back in 85.. the Shell GP of Europe at Brands Hatch. Rosberg had a coming together with Piquet whilst battling for the lead and suffered a puncture. He got back to the pits but was a lap down so he waited until Senna was coming round and pulled out of the pits in front of him (Senna was leading at the time IIRC). Senna later complained that Rosberg impeded him in order for Mansell to catch up and pass him, which he did. It was Mansell's first win.

Yes that is quite an extreme comparison and maybe I am too suspicious by nature but having happened before is it really such a ridiculous thought?


1. Lewis initially said he thought he should retire..
2. Passed Vettel and went off chasing down Alonso.
3. Obviously pushing very hard beyond race pace he stated on the radio that there was no way his tyres were going to last at this pace.
4. had a couple of nibbles at Alonso before Alonso pulled away slightly then pitted.
5. Lewis then pitted as his tyres were again shot? and it was better to save the car and iirc Jenson had got past Vettel and therefore he really had no other reason to be out there anymore.
6. Whitmarsh stated in the interview that it was 'legal to race the leaders and Lewis wanted to go back out and race' Eh??.. Doesn't really tie with Leweis earlier radio comment does it?

Feel free to correct me if the timeline is muddled and/or quotes taken out of context and whether they actually interfered or not is up for debate but to me it looks like they had at least considered it. If I was being gracious I'd suggest he was sent back out to collect tyre data for 110% race pace in a slightly damaged car, hmm... :/

Just a personal theory thats based on evidence thats circumstancial at best but just thinking outside the box and sharing my thoughts here for you to pick holes in if you wish. Its ok to share your thoughts on forums, no?

[Tazio]

It has happened before, back in 85.. the Shell GP of Europe at Brands Hatch. Rosberg had a coming together with Piquet whilst battling for the lead and suffered a puncture. He got back to the pits but was a lap down so he waited until Senna was coming round and pulled out of the pits in front of him (Senna was leading at the time IIRC). Senna later complained that Rosberg impeded him in order for Mansell to catch up and pass him, which he did. It was Mansell's first win.

Yes that is quite an extreme comparison and maybe I am too suspicious by nature but having happened before is it really such a ridiculous thought?


1. Lewis initially said he thought he should retire..
2. Passed Vettel and went off chasing down Alonso.
3. Obviously pushing very hard beyond race pace he stated on the radio that there was no way his tyres were going to last at this pace.
4. had a couple of nibbles at Alonso before Alonso pulled away slightly then pitted.
5. Lewis then pitted as his tyres were again shot? and it was better to save the car and iirc Jenson had got past Vettel and therefore he really had no other reason to be out there anymore.
6. Whitmarsh stated in the interview that it was 'legal to race the leaders and Lewis wanted to go back out and race' Eh??.. Doesn't really tie with Leweis earlier radio comment does it?

Feel free to correct me if the timeline is muddled and/or quotes taken out of context and whether they actually interfered or not is up for debate but to me it looks like they had at least considered it. If I was being gracious I'd suggest he was sent back out to collect tyre data for 110% race pace in a slightly damaged car, hmm... :/

Just a personal theory thats based on evidence thats circumstancial at best but just thinking outside the box and sharing my thoughts here for you to pick holes in if you wish. Its ok to share your thoughts on forums, no? I will gladly yield! I have not given it anywhere near that degree of consideration. It is 6:30 am PDT as I type, and I've been frying my eyes out on my computer screen for about 6 hours :crazy: You have certainly provided a tidy case with what I trust is a correct chronology of what was said and done. I believe there are more things in heaven and on earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy…. which is:
I don't believe that The Boss would sacrifice his season for a teammate that has almost no chance to win the WDC, to say nothing of his reputation as a sportsman. I would find it much more plausible if it was the ultimate or penultimate race of the season as there is a well documented history of this type of behavior. I hope you can appreciate that this may have been a stimulating mind exercise for you in the morning to afternoon, while I on the other hand have struggled to stay awake through FP1 and 2 as I always make it a point to watch the entire weekend live. You may be right. I hope for the sake of McLaren you are not, because at this point in the season this action would not benefit McLaren even for points in the WCC because whatever could be gained would be lost in penalties. The only scenario I can think of right now that would surely advance McLarens team and driver standings is if The Boss killed or maimed Scuderia Alonso. At any rate enjoy the rest of the weekend.
BTW right now "I don't know where the space is between my eyes"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGBNg5H1CwE

[Zico]

Thanks but Its not about yielding, its just a discussion on a theory as far as Im concerned. Im just glad you can see why I have my suspicions.

I also hope I am totally wrong for the sake of McLaren and Lewis's own integrity. If it was the truth, as far as unlapping yourself goes, it is perfectly legal to do what Lewis did, so unless it was freely admitted its not something that could sacrifice his season.

Staying up to watch FP1 and 2!... now thats what I call a diehard follower of F1! I know the feeling well but not for these reasons. I hope you got the chance to catch up with some sleep today sir. Peace and out. :)

[Tazio]

If it was the truth, as far as unlapping yourself goes, it is perfectly legal to do what Lewis did That is one thing I have never contended! If you have that impression go back to the beginning of the thread and I was in total agreement that Fred should allow this to happen, and quoted him as saying that is exactly what he planned to do if he ever thought The Boss was actually capable of doing it! My only disagreement with you is that He The Boss wouldn't go “Medieval” ala Senna/Prost/JV/Shu on his a$$ :laugh:
P.S. I slept gloriously from 7:30am untill 2:00 PM
Thanks for caring :dork: ;)
I still don't know where the space is between my eyes, but that is a bit of a philosophical delema :confused: :s tareup:

'Til I find out, where will I go,
where will I go
I don't know, I don't know,

I don't know where
The space is between my eyes
Open up the heavenly skies
Death awaits at the pearly gates
For those who've been mesmerized
Many years has come and gone

Went to see a standing stone
Some in circles, some alone
Ancient, worn and weather torn
They chill me to the very bone

Many of these can be seen
In quiet places, fields of green
Of hedgerow lanes with countless names
But the only thing that remains
Are the roll right stones

- Chorus

Space age before my eyes
Opening up the skies
Devil waits at the pearly gates
For those who have been mesmerized

Many a years has come and gone
But progress marches slowly on
In nature's paint, she hides the stain
'Cuz everybody is going insane
The only, the only thing
That will sustain are the roll right stones

Roll Right Stones (7X)
(Musical Interlude)"

- Chorus

'Til I find out, where will I go,
Where will I go
I don't know, I don't know,
I don't know where
The space is between my eyes

Open up the heavenly skies
Death awaits at the pearly gates
For those who've been mesmerized
Many years has come and gone

Went to see an ancient mound
People buried underground
Long ago, will never know
What it was like to hear their sounds
Black crow, I know you've been here
You've see the sights of yesteryear
You steal the grain of the conquered plain
But the only thing that remains
Are the roll right stones

[Zico]

That is one thing I have never contended!

I know... I was just clumsily reiterating the point that possible ulterior motives would be extremely difficult to prove.

Not very often you see lyrics used to say something in the F1 forum...

Not as apt but here is a favourite of mine.. Lets have a sing-song! :D


So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell,
Blue sky's from pain.
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

And did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl,
Year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
And how we found
The same old fears.
Wish you were here.


;)

[Tazio]

Steve Winwood, and Roger Waters, two Rock and Roll gods IMHO ;)
I saw Traffic in 1973 with the opening act beind "Free" (Paul Rogers later to be the leader of "Bad Co." and "The Firm")

[F1boat]

1. I distinctly remember Kubice a few years ago unlapping himself, where was your outrage?

I don't know, I don't remember what I posted years ago LOL