Driver and Donkey of the British GP

[F1boat]

Driver - Webber
Donkey - Pastor

[wedge]

Driver of the Day: I'd like to give to Massa

Donkey: Kobay

Not sure about the Perez/Maldonado incident and nor is it easy to have much sympathy for Pastor these days.

[Dave B]

Driver - Webber
Donkey - Pastor
Spot on :up:

Webber pulled off a good old-fashioned no nonsense non-DRS pass on Alonso (who, to be fair, gave Webber proper respect and racing room). Massa deserves a pat on the back for a decent performance too.

Donkey definately Pastor, it was yet another bone-headed move from someone who is gaining a poor reputation; and Kobayashi is honourable donkey for clattering into half his pit crew and toppling them like dominoes.

[Tazio]

Driver~Webber
Donkey~Egornado

[donKey jote]

ditto ditto ditto

[donKey jote]

Webber perfect against a very fast Ferrari (just see where even Massa ended ;) :p ) :up:

[jens]

Donkeys are Maldonado and Sauber (latter for the whole weekend). It is just mindblowing, how many points these competitors have thrown away this season despite having a really fast car.

Driver? Webber, Alonso. Grosjean for a good recovery (have to look again, how responsible he was for the first lap incident though).

[N4D13]

Driver: Webbo
Donkey: anyone who expected this race to be exciting. I don't know about you, but I found it rather boring...

[steveaki13]

Driver of the Day:

Fernando Alonso - For me he drove a brilliant race, and I thought he deserved a win, but unfortunately his tyres were not up to it at the end.

Other Mentions:
Mark Webber - Great drive and chose his moment well, the move was brave but he was helped by DRS. That is the 0.5% which makes me give the DOTD to Fernando

Massa- He drove really well and was like the Massa of old. Good job.

Grosjean - He got involved early on, but showed brilliant pace and commitment to recover to 6th. That pass on Rosberg into maggotts and becketts, when he just left his foot flat down and let Rosberg avoid a massive crash. That showed balls.

[fandango]

It wouldn't surprise me if Maldonado got a one-race ban or at least a suspended ban. He reminds me a little of Irvine pre-Ferrari, with similar cockiness. I like him, but he probably needs his leash yanked.

[Dave B]

I found it very exciting even if my driver was nowhere in the race.
I always knew you were a closet Petrov fan! :p

[truefan72]

Driver: Webbo
Donkey: anyone who expected this race to be exciting. I don't know about you, but I found it rather boring...

it was a good and entertaining race

seems trendy to come on here and proclaim a race (any race) boring.
I'm not sure if you watched the race, but it was far from boring

I am severely disappointed by the mclaren performance, but I would not call the race boring, with action up and down the grid.

[truefan72]

I found it very exciting even if my driver was nowhere in the race.

Driver: Webber - Fantastic drive!!

Donkey: Maldonado - It seems every other driver feels his attitude needs to change and I think a drive through was a light slap on the wrist today.

:up:

[wedge]

Donkey: anyone who expected this race to be exciting. I don't know about you, but I found it rather boring...

It's how F1 should be, IMO.

It should be tense, suspense at something might happen, will happen; not countless meaningless overtakes, say Barcelona.

[steveaki13]

Driver: Webbo
Donkey: anyone who expected this race to be exciting. I don't know about you, but I found it rather boring...

The first 20 laps were great. The drivers battled all over the track the track was a challenge and early pitstops mixed it up.

Then the last 30 or so the cars got 3-5 seconds apart and stayed there, intersected only by the odd DRS move.

People on TV always say thank goodness for no rain, but I don't mind admitting I was hoping for a wet race today.

The reason being, Silverstone tends in recent years to be either brilliant or dull. No in between.

Great races recently: 2000,2002,2003,2008,2011.
Dull: 2001,2004,2005,2006,2007,2009,2010.

On balance this was an in between Great first half, dull second half.

[N4D13]

The first 20 laps were great. The drivers battled all over the track the track was a challenge and early pitstops mixed it up.

Then the last 30 or so the cars got 3-5 seconds apart and stayed there, intersected only by the odd DRS move.

People on TV always say thank goodness for no rain, but I don't mind admitting I was hoping for a wet race today.

The reason being, Silverstone tends in recent years to be either brilliant or dull. No in between.

Great races recently: 2000,2002,2003,2008,2011.
Dull: 2001,2004,2005,2006,2007,2009,2010.

On balance this was an in between Great first half, dull second half.
Yup. It's a shame that I could only remember the latter. :p

Personally, the thing I care the most is the battle for podium positions, and there didn't seem to be much of it, apart from the Vettel-Massa-Hamilton fight, which was pretty much done after the first pitstops. Even in the end, when Webber was behind Alonso, there was no tension whatsoever - with Webber being between half a second and a second faster, I expected him to get past Alonso in no time.

Edit: come to think about it, the fact that I had to spend something like a third of the race watching advertisements must have played a large part in my boredom. :mad:

[steveaki13]

What a Donkey I am, I forgot to list my Donkies.

Maldonado - He cracked under pressure again and wiped out Perez.

Sauber - They looked so fast and yet have nothing to show for it.

Kobayashi - For attacking his pit crew.

Rosberg - No pace

[steveaki13]

. Even in the end, when Webber was behind Alonso, there was no tension whatsoever - with Webber being between half a second and a second faster, I expected him to get past Alonso in no time.



Thats my thoughts. There was no epic tension of a battle of years past. Will Webber overtake or can Alonso drive a brilliant defensive last 5 laps
? With DRS you no the answer to both.

I no I am going to be hated and given a bashing for saying that.

[Dave B]

Thats my thoughts. There was no epic tension of a battle of years past. Will Webber overtake or can Alonso drive a brilliant defensive last 5 laps
? With DRS you no the answer to both.

I no I am going to be hated and given a bashing for saying that.
Fortunately today Webber made the pass on Alonso well away from the DRS zone. He did have the advantage of DRS in some previous laps to help him close the gap, but remember that much of the time backmarkers allowed the Ferrari to also use DRS.

[steveaki13]

Fortunately today Webber made the pass on Alonso well away from the DRS zone. He did have the advantage of DRS in some previous laps to help him close the gap, but remember that much of the time backmarkers allowed the Ferrari to also use DRS.

Didn't Mark pass him outside of Brooklands after using DRS down the Wellington Straight??

[N4D13]

Didn't Mark pass him outside of Brooklands after using DRS down the Wellington Straight??

Yes, he did. He got really close to Alonso and used DRS + Alonso's tow to overtake him.

[wedge]

Thats my thoughts. There was no epic tension of a battle of years past. Will Webber overtake or can Alonso drive a brilliant defensive last 5 laps
? With DRS you no the answer to both.

I no I am going to be hated and given a bashing for saying that.

Was Alonso managing his tyres for that stint or was that his true pace? It was great magnificent overtake. Alonso gave breathing space and still tried to fight back.

People say how great this year's tyres are yet if you're on the wrong tyre at the wrong moment you're a sitting duck.

Piquet was in a similar situation in 1987 and yet it produced one of the all time great overatakes.

[longisland]

Driver: Webbo
Donkey: anyone who expected this race to be exciting. I don't know about you, but I found it rather boring...
I for one have no problem what so ever to be a donkey. The race was pretty much settled until the lat 10 laps. Unless it was deemed dull because Fred didn't win, on contrary, it was one of the more exciting finishes of the season. Fred used up his rubber when he was battling Lewis and Mark took advantage of it. I'd say it's a fair result the end of the day. At least the tires didn't went off as they did in Canada if I recall correctly. Massa did a better job with the softs in a heavier fuel load eg
Hen he needed to overtake Shuey early in the race.
Drivers: Mark, Romain and Massa
Best team: Red Bull for great call on Seb's stops in the first stint
Donkeys:Mclaren, Mercedes, Pastor and Koba

[Warriwa]

What the hell is going on with Rosberg?
Drivers, Webbo, Grosjean.

[Robinho]

Simples, Webber for driver, Pastor for donkey (again). If it wasn't for the spain win i think there would be calls for his head, given the number of good points scoring finishes he's thrown away now (Oz, Valencia, GB off the top of my head)

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

[Ranger]

Drivers: Webber, Alonso, Schumacher.

Honourable mention to Massa who should have no problems retaining a drive if he consistently performs as well as today.

Donkeys: Maldonado, honourable mention to Kobayashi.

[rjbetty]

Drivers: Webber - beat Vettel and can win title if he keeps this up. Wonder how he goes towards end of season tracks though...
Schumacher - 28 sec ahead of Rosberg, > +0.5sec fastest lap. Similar gaps in Malaysia, Valencia and probably Australia. Rosberg only really really beat him in China (maybe Spain?) and yet Rosberg is destroying Michael...?
Grosjean - 7sec behind Raikkonen, 17sec behind winner. Pitted for repairs on lap 1.

Donkeys: Maldonado - not so much for another crash, but his general lack of respect, as said by Perez.

[donKey jote]

I for one have no problem what so ever to be a donkey.

me neither ! :bandit:

[djparky]

driver- Webber and Grosjean
donkey- Maldonado- throws it into another car again- Barcelona aside he is useless- another good haul of points down the toilet. Shame Williams need the PDVSA money

[DexDexter]

Driver of the race - Webber

Donkeys: Maldonado, a special mention to Grosjean who once again made contact with other cars. A good drive afterwards but you just cannot go on hitting cars every other race.

[Bagwan]

Sucks to be Pastor right now , with everyone piling on .

So , all you guys just want him to roll over and let Sergio punk him into giving up the line ?
Pah !

Have a look at the incident again .
Neither driver gave way , and they ended up trying to take up the same space .
It's not as if Sergio didn't know he was there .
And , it should be pretty damned obvious that Sergio knew that Pastor would not give up the place easily , since he's complaining about his reputation here .

He went outside .
He knew the risk .
He knew he was going into a corner with a car beside him .
He knew who was in that car .

How do you say "Cry me a river" in Spanish ?

Maybe Pastor should get some stick over incidents in the past , but not this time .
That was a racing incident .

[Dave B]

Maybe Pastor should get some stick over incidents in the past , but not this time .
That was a racing incident .
The stewards disagree.

[donKey jote]

How do you say "Cry me a river" in Spanish ?




"llórame un río", but it doesn't make much sense :p

[Bagwan]

The stewards disagree.

Gee , that's strange .

[Bagwan]

"llórame un río", but it doesn't make much sense :p

It's all Greek to me .

[Whyzars]

Driver: Alonso and Webber tie. Their brief wheel to wheel action never looked like ending in tears.

Donkey: The fuel/tyre/DRS rules.


The rule book gets my donkey vote because, in my opinion, the tyre rules and the fuel rules are killing the racing and DRS is killing the defending.

I was left wondering whether it was the tyre rule that defeated Alonso or if he backed off so that he would have enough fuel to guarantee second place? That just isn't right. :crazy:

[Bagwan]

If it was a driver you disliked, I get the impression you would have said he carried far too much speed into the inside of the corner and caused an unnecessary incident. Its two races in a row now where Pastor has forced another driver into retirement by not being able to concede when he is beaten. The stewards were right to punish him and I think the drivers will be heaping on the pressure in fridays drivers meeting as the respect for his opponents just isn't there at present.

Sergio knew Pastor was inside for that corner .
And , Pastor knew he knew .

This wasn't a lunge from way back , and they both judged the situation wrongly .

Pastor has admitted he misjudged the grip , first losing the front end , before the curbing , and then the rear , as he corrected .
And Sergio was angry that Pastor hadn't conceded the corner , when he had expected him to have done so .

Ergo , racing incident .

That's my opinion , and I'm dreadfully sorry if you're not impressed by it .

[christophulus]

Sergio knew Pastor was inside for that corner .
And , Pastor knew he knew .

This wasn't a lunge from way back , and they both judged the situation wrongly .

Pastor has admitted he misjudged the grip , first losing the front end , before the curbing , and then the rear , as he corrected .
And Sergio was angry that Pastor hadn't conceded the corner , when he had expected him to have done so .

Ergo , racing incident .

That's my opinion , and I'm dreadfully sorry if you're not impressed by it .

I'm inclined to agree, I don't think there was any malice in what Maldonado did, but it was careless. Once again, being overly aggressive has cost him and Williams some valuable points.

It's a bit like Hamilton last year, you just kind of knew that if it was a close pass then there was likely to be contact (especially if Massa was nearby). I just hope Maldonado can calm down in the second half of the season and accept when something's a lost cause.

[i_max2k2]

Driver of the Day - Webber, Massa, Schumacher
Donkey - Alonso, Rosberg, Kobi, Pastor

Webber drove a great race, really pacing himself well, he dint let Alonso drive away, kept his tyres under check, and when the time came pushed and took victory, Massa similarly did the most he could, and Schumi defended as well as anyone to keep his 4th fastest car in 3rd and then drove sensibly, and a good overtake on Lewis, was a good moment.

Donkey - Alonso, used up his tyres much more then he should have had, to let webber pass him, he dint need to fight hamilton, rather should have just cruised behind him, webber had already made a pit stop and there was absolutely no need to race him and destroy his tyres till hamilton pitted. Rosberg was terribly slow today, the most I think I have seen him in the last year or so, much slower then where he should have been, Kobi for sending some of his pit crew to medical care, and pastor for making that dull head turn to take perez out of the race.

[Bagwan]

Just because I think you are totally wrong does not mean I think you are not entitled to your opinion. Its not often you apologise, but I don't think you need to in this instance.

I guess you didn't read my post with the same amount of sarcasm I intended .
I am sorry for that . I don't use smiley faces .

Your previous post dismissed my opinion entirely , saying that if it had been a different driver , the opinion would be different .

Then , you stated your opinion , which was reasonably obvious , given your view on mine .

Punk Perez had to know Maldonado wouldn't just give it up . He could have taken a wider line and still beat him coming out .
But , since Pastor has had some recent events with questionable maneouvres , he gets punked again when Perez has a mic in his face .

[Bagwan]

I'm inclined to agree, I don't think there was any malice in what Maldonado did, but it was careless. Once again, being overly aggressive has cost him and Williams some valuable points.

It's a bit like Hamilton last year, you just kind of knew that if it was a close pass then there was likely to be contact (especially if Massa was nearby). I just hope Maldonado can calm down in the second half of the season and accept when something's a lost cause.

I'm not sure "careless" is exactly the right word .
He has admitted he completely misjudged the grip , so , essentially , in the heat of the moment , he got it wrong .
And , it had gone wrong , admittedly , from the very start of the move , as the fronts first locked , and the snap lifted the rears enough for them to lock , and they came together .

These two guys have history , just like those two guys you mentioned .

Both drivers were involved . Both were vying for position . Neither relented .

[Bagwan]

And , by the way , I guess unsurprisingly , Mark Gillian of Williams agrees with me .
It was a "racing incident" .

“Both Pastor and Bruno had very good starts and were pushing hard in the initial stages of the race. Unfortunately Pastor was involved in a racing incident with Perez on his second stint which lead to a premature pitstop for a damaged rear-right tyre which ultimately compromised his race. After the race the stewards issued Pastor with a reprimand which as a team we accept.”

[N. Jones]

Driver: Fernando. He's the best on the grid.

Donkey - Pastor. He isn't aggressive, he's reckless.

[tfp]

Driver - Webber. He took the fight to who many consider the best driver on the grid, and showed him whos boss. I am also pleased with Massa, he did a really good race, I was a bit disapointed he wasnt on the podium. A mention to the shoe today aswel, he had a really good day and Rosberg had a really bad one, about the biggest difference we have seenwith these two.

Donkeys - Bunson for his terrible qualifying. And custard, for careless driving and costing Perez his race. Kobi aswel for flattening his pit crew.

Mediocres of the race - Hamilton, I expected better from him. And Senna, they just never really took off at this race. And what hapenned with Rosberg??

[tfp]

Driver: Fernando. He's the best on the grid.
.

I wasn't having a dig at you there, we just posted at the same time :p

[Bruce D]

Driver: Grosjean - 32sec behind after lap 3, 17sec behind at the finish. Enough said.

Donkey(s): Maldonado and Perez combined. Maldonado because he's now crashed in every single race weekend since Barcelona. Perez because if he knew Maldonado was dodgy why did he try that move??? I knew it wasn't going to work the minute he went for it.

[Dave B]

And , by the way , I guess unsurprisingly , Mark Gillian of Williams agrees with me .
It was a "racing incident" .

Hardly an unbiased view, though. :p

I do agree with you insofar as it wasn't such a blatant foul as we've seen from Pastor at, say, Monaco; but it was still very much his fault and the stewards agreed. I guess they too thought it wasn't the world's most serious clash as they imposed an extremely light penalty.

[Dave B]

Perez because if he knew Maldonado was dodgy why did he try that move??? I knew it wasn't going to work the minute he went for it.
Some levelled the same accusation at Hamilton in Valencia: why get involved with Maldonado when his reputation as a serial crasher precedes him?

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

[Ranger]

Driver: Grosjean - 32sec behind after lap 3, 17sec behind at the finish. Enough said.

Donkey(s): Maldonado and Perez combined. Maldonado because he's now crashed in every single race weekend since Barcelona. Perez because if he knew Maldonado was dodgy why did he try that move??? I knew it wasn't going to work the minute he went for it.


Some levelled the same accusation at Hamilton in Valencia: why get involved with Maldonado when his reputation as a serial crasher precedes him?

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

Indeed.

[Bruce D]

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

I agree with what you're saying but the fact is with guys like that you need to box clever and outsmart them in their own game. I'm sure he could have pressured Maldonado into sliding wide and nailing him up the inside. My point was more Perez put himself at the mercy of a nutter. In the case of Hamilton, he didn't allow enough room for a nutter.

[CNR]

Maldonado should have got a back of the grid for the next race


Alvaro Bautista will be put to the back of the Sachsenring MotoGP grid as a
punishment for taking Jorge Lorenzo out of the Dutch TT.

[A FONDO]

Drivers: Webber, Alonso

Donkeys: Rosberg; Hamilton Button Diresta

[Dave B]

Drivers: Webber, Alonso

Donkeys: Rosberg; Hamilton Button Diresta
I'm not sure what Di Resta did wrong. He was caught up in the sort of opening lap rough and tumble that we see in almost every race, and was unlucky to pick up a puncture.

[zako85]

Driver: Webber
Honorable Mention: Alonso, Gosjean, Massa
Donkey: Schumacher

This is a fantastic high speed track with many opportunities for a clean pass without DRS. Overall, the race its was fantastic. There was a lot of action in the beginning. I was kind of hoping to see Webber take the fight to Alonso, but by mid-race I was confident that Alonso was going win. And look how it changed in the last five laps of the race. I am impressed with how Webber meticulously stayed in pursuit of Alonso and saved his best for the last few laps of the race.

[The Black Knight]

I'm not sure what Di Resta did wrong. He was caught up in the sort of opening lap rough and tumble that we see in almost every race, and was unlucky to pick up a puncture.

I'm unsure what Button, Hamilton or Rosberg did either. They just had bad cars.

My donkey unsurprisingly - Maldonado. He is donkey of the year, no doubt. A complete handicap driver.

Drivers of the race - Alonso, Webber and Grosjean. Schumacher had a good outing to passing Hamilton with a few laps remaining, proving there is life in the old fox yet.

[SGWilko]

Donkey - Alonso, used up his tyres much more then he should have had,

I think Alonso did very well actually. Clearly, those that started on the hard tyre were at a disadvantage, but to only lose one place on fading tyres is not a big issue. Consistency is going to win the championship this year, and thus far, Alonso is streets ahead in that dept.

[SGWilko]

since Pastor has had some recent events with questionable maneouvres , he gets punked again when Perez has a mic in his face .

Oh dear oh dear - you didn't it see it like that last year when a driver had some recent events with questionable maneouvres

Nontheless, Henners is spot on, even if your opinions from driver to driver are biased, you are entitled to them! :p

[Wasted Talent]

Sucks to be Pastor right now , with everyone piling on .

So , all you guys just want him to roll over and let Sergio punk him into giving up the line ?
Pah !

Have a look at the incident again .
Neither driver gave way , and they ended up trying to take up the same space .
It's not as if Sergio didn't know he was there .
And , it should be pretty damned obvious that Sergio knew that Pastor would not give up the place easily , since he's complaining about his reputation here .

He went outside .
He knew the risk .
He knew he was going into a corner with a car beside him .
He knew who was in that car .

How do you say "Cry me a river" in Spanish ?

Maybe Pastor should get some stick over incidents in the past , but not this time .
That was a racing incident .

Largely agree with this - maybe Maldonado should have allowed a little more for the cold tyres that he was on, but he knew it was important to keep Perez behind while he got them fully up to speed. If you compare it with the Maldonado Raikkonen incident, Maldonado did exactly the same (except didn't lose the rear), and Kimi was forced to go off track, but no-one is complaining about that as far as I know.

The Monaco incident was definitely a bad one and should have been penalised much more heavily (and he has form withthe same thing on Hamilton in Spa), but in Valencia he was slightly in the wrong but the car wouldn't turn as the plank was on the kerb. Try imagining this one with Hamilton on the outside overtaking Maldonado in Valencia, would he have done any different? I doubt it. Button, Alonso, possibly Vettel might have as they take a longer view.

WT

[Wasted Talent]

Some levelled the same accusation at Hamilton in Valencia: why get involved with Maldonado when his reputation as a serial crasher precedes him?

The trouble with that is you're condoning bad behaviour. If nobody stands up to Pastor he'll eventually be able to simply breeze past rivals too afraid to defend their positions for fear of being nerfed off the track. Now Senna was a master when it came to intimidating his opponents, and Schumacher was similarly ruthless back in his day, but to a large extent they earned their reputation by being hard but fair - not simply a loose cannon.

Not condoning bad behaviour either, but Maldonado is suffering for making iffy descisions that turn out as
bad ones.

Interesting you quote Senna and Schumacher as being hard but fair - both were entirely ruthless (and totally morally wrong), in the way they won world championships - Senna deliberately in crashing into Prost in Japan, and Schumacher in crashing into Damon Hill in Australia - both totally stank but the FIA did nothing.

Senna has some argument in the way that the FIA bent for Prost the year before, but Schumacher even tried the same on Villeneuve but failed.

Maybe Pastor is just looking to attract the attention of BTCC team bosses........ :)

WT

[A FONDO]

I'm not sure what Di Resta did wrong. He was caught up in the sort of opening lap rough and tumble that we see in almost every race, and was unlucky to pick up a puncture.

significantly slower than his teammate in home race

[Dave B]

significantly slower than his teammate in home race
He only just failed to get out of Q2 - which also claimed fast drivers like Rosberg and Perez - and in the race made a reasonable start before getting caught up in an accident and sustaining damage. I'm not sure that any of that justifies being a Donkey, but I respect your opinion.

His team mate started 14th (admittedly partly due to a penalty) and only converted that into 12th by the finish - hardly a stellar performance.

[Tazio]

MHO; Di Resta made a questionable maneuver at the start of the race that really bit him in the butt. He is otherwise a very disciplined driver, and I had him tabbed for a points finish. :angryfire

[wedge]

Schumacher in crashing into Damon Hill in Australia - both totally stank but the FIA did nothing.

Arguably a racing incident.

Did Schumi have much of a previous prior to that race?

Many have/had given Schumi the benefit of doubt, even Murray Walker.

[ArrowsFA1]

Can open. Worms everywhere :p

[Wasted Talent]

Arguably a racing incident.

Did Schumi have much of a previous prior to that race?

Many have/had given Schumi the benefit of doubt, even Murray Walker.

Absolutely not a racing incident - Schumacher had wrecked his car against the wall and knew it, so the only way he could get the title was taking Damon out.

Murray Walker always was in thrall to Schumacher.

Worms indeed!

WT

[Mekola]

Driver - Webber
Donkey - Maldonado

[Knock-on]

Webber and Pastor. I'll let you figure out which is which

[Garry Walker]

Arguably a racing incident.

Did Schumi have much of a previous prior to that race?

Many have/had given Schumi the benefit of doubt, even Murray Walker. Adding Murray "dumb dumb" Walker's name to the list of Schumi defenders in that incident severely damages and weakens his case.


Absolutely not a racing incident - Schumacher had wrecked his car against the wall and knew it, so the only way he could get the title was taking Damon out.

Who exactly asked Damon to put his car in a place where there was zero room for him and never was going to be any?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I was at Silverstone yesterday and totally missed Romain Grosjeans drive from the back to 6th place. I'm not totally sure how he managed that one :s

[Garry Walker]

I was at Silverstone yesterday and totally missed Romain Grosjeans drive from the back to 6th place. I'm not totally sure how he managed that one :s

Maybe you were busy with the sausages?

[Bagwan]

I'm sorry you felt you needed to be sarcastic to get your point across. Oh well.

And yet when Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi and Webber make 'outside' overtakes on the same corner, all have enough respect for their opponents to leave each other room and not carry too much speed into the corner. Perez mentioned the other drivers are concerned by Pastors behaviour in such situations and you yourself said 'he must have known Maldonado wouldn't just give it up'.... He's getting quite a reputation isn't he? I'm not calling for bans or anything like that for Pastor, but I do think he needs to listen to his peers because respect works both ways on the racetrack. Pastor could find himself in a similar position in future and next time it might be him running out of room or having an intimate encounter with a tyre wall. Time will tell whether these silly errors will be learnt from IMO. I hope he does, because he's got the potential to be a damn fine racer.

See , this is the thing .
I see two silly errors here , and you see only one .

Of course one was Maldonado's mis-judgement of the grip inside . He admitted to having completely screwed up .
The other was Perez thinking he had his opponent beaten , and then demonstrating clearly that he knew that Pastor would not give up so easily by crying to the press about his previous behavior . There isn't just a little bit of irony there .

Both were driver errors , resulting in a racing incident .

[steveaki13]

I was at Silverstone yesterday and totally missed Romain Grosjeans drive from the back to 6th place. I'm not totally sure how he managed that one :s

How did you enjoy your first GP? Apart from terrible weather.

[steveaki13]

As for the Hill & Schumi incident.

Its up there with Prost & Senna.

And if we get into that, we will be here for 100 pages+.

Having said that i am still going to say a line or two on it.

I think Schumacher did do it on purpose, however Penalties were not widely in force in 1994 and crashes were a larger part of the sport. Therefore as much as it might choke some people, he always had that option open and chose to use it. That is why he won so much as he was driven like Senna in 1990, to do everything to win.

Being upset by it is pointless. Schumacher won that title then Hill didn't.

In 97 he lost out while Villeneuve won.

Its tough and its always a possibilty in racing.

[wedge]

Absolutely not a racing incident - Schumacher had wrecked his car against the wall and knew it, so the only way he could get the title was taking Damon out.

Murray Walker always was in thrall to Schumacher.

Worms indeed!

WT

Hill went for a banzai move. Hill saw gap but Schumi - as Walker argued - was entitled to take the racing line and the door was always going to close.

[Bagwan]

Hill went for a banzai move. Hill saw gap but Schumi - as Walker argued - was entitled to take the racing line and the door was always going to close.

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

[jens]

I have to play a moderator role now and tell you to quit with Hill-Schumacher discussion from this thread. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet.
So if a driver sees Maldonado in his mirrors he should just jump out of the way and let the Williams through?

[Koz]

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

This is all getting very silly now.

Every damn day, we complain here that there isn't enough overtaking in F1.

What you have basically said, as I understand it, is don't overtake because the guy because he's doesn't have the cool not to lose it??

Maybe we should just ban overtaking?
Hell, lets get rid of the race entirely, shall we?
Qualifying seems safer.

Oh wait no, Maldonado has gone after people in qualifying too... Geez.

Ok, its cool that he can't keep his cool.

[The Black Knight]

This is all getting very silly now.

Every damn day, we complain here that there isn't enough overtaking in F1.

What you have basically said, as I understand it, is don't overtake because the guy because he's doesn't have the cool not to lose it??

Maybe we should just ban overtaking?
Hell, lets get rid of the race entirely, shall we?
Qualifying seems safer.

Oh wait no, Maldonado has gone after people in qualifying too... Geez.

Ok, its cool that he can't keep his cool.

I wouldn't even bother trying to argue with Bagwan. He is entitled to his opinion but his opinion is so warped to reality that it beggars belief really. I don't really even bother reading his posts anymore, but I can imagine, based on what you've written that he has probably blamed Perez for the Maldonado accident. He either is either a WUM or, more worryingly, he might actually believe what he posts. Just be thankful that the FIA don't really ever see things his way. It's along the same lines of him expecting Lewis to yield to Maldonado in the last race because Maldonado is aggressive so he should just let him go. The same guys were on the bash Hamilton bandwagon last year through his bad patch slamming Hamilton for being over aggressive saying he can't just expect drivers to let him through when he tries to bully his way past i.e. his incidents in Monaco.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

How did you enjoy your first GP? Apart from terrible weather.

It was fantastic. The wettest weekend at Silverstone for over 10 years and I come back with the worst sunburn I can remember.

[Mia 01]

very good: Webber and Alonso
good; Massa and Kimi.

bad: Pastor and Koba.

About the latter. That chop in the pits was horrible, I feared for the pitcrews life there.

[wedge]

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

Why is Sergio more of a donkey?

Sergio gave enough room to go wheel to wheel into the corner.

It was Pastor who lost it towards the apex so he is arguably more of a donkey for misjudging the grip available after coming out of the pits.

[SGWilko]

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

Yeah, DON'T overtake on the outside is the rule.

Oh, unless you are JV, then, hey, that's just fine and dandy, init tho?

[ArrowsFA1]

Yeah, DON'T overtake on the outside is the rule.

Oh, unless you are JV, then, hey, that's just fine and dandy, init tho?
That reminds me of James Hunt's lecture to Mario Andretti that "we don't overtake around the outside in F1" after this:

uNg6IvrIHbk

[Bagwan]

Of course you can overtake on the outside .

You've got two guys going into a corner , and both want to come out the other end of it in front .
Both are under not only the regular pressure of competition , but also belong to underdog teams where they are being questioned for non-performance , so want desperately to do well .
You are nearing the end of the race .

Maldonado's not the first misjudge the inside line , and Perez is not the first to try going around the outside risking that the inside man could slide into him .
Both had every right to race each other .
They were side by side .

Maybe you're right , wedge , although he did have a little more room to try to skirt the issue of a car he was holding to a tighter line , if he hadn't given up the attempt to defend , from sliding into him .
I will allow them both to be little donkeys , up until Sergio got in front of the mic .

[Malbec]

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

Finally someone posts what I've been thinking.

If Pastor is such a disrespectful dangerous idiot why place yourself on his outside entirely at his mercy so you can be taken out by him?

As for Sergio he's been making some odd comments lately. After his podium in Canada he claimed he was happy for the team as Sauber hadn't scored any points since his last podium in Malaysia. I thought this was odd and looked it up, of course Sauber had scored points but Sergio hadn't. I guess Kobayashi drives for a different team then...

Then before Silverstone he claimed that Sauber just HAD to improve its qualifying performance because he'd failed to break into Q3 for several races. Again I guess Kobayashi drivers for a different team because he's been doing just fine in the other blue and white car....

I had heard on the grapevine that Ferrari were going cool on him because his head has been growing too big lately and he's a difficult guy to work with. I'm starting to believe that.

As for the incident, Pastor lost his rear for a bit on cold tyres which went straight into Sergio. Wasn't a deliberate move or a particularly outrageous mistake either. Sergio shouldn't have been so close to him.

[SGWilko]

why place yourself on his outside entirely at his mercy so you can be taken out by him?

Ummmmmmm, because it is a race, and because a pass was legitimate, and because others had made that pass.

If not, lets just pack up and not bother.

[kfzmeister]

To suggest that Sergio is donkey of the race and to defend Pastor for what is essentially a duplicate of the move he pulled on Hamilton in Valencia is absolute hogwash!
In neither instance did he attempt to correct his steering towards the left to avoid a collision. We have seen his deliberate moves on Hamilton at Spa and Perez at Monaco. He is dangerous and should have been banned for his thuggish driving style for at least a race. They have been to lenient on him. It's time!
Driver of the race: Webber.

[tfp]

If Pastor is such a disrespectful dangerous idiot why place yourself on his outside entirely at his mercy so you can be taken out by him?
.

Cant say I agree, why would any driver have in the back of his mind "I dont want to go near him, I a frightened he will crash into me" and simply let him past without fighting for position?

What are the rules for rejoining the track? Pastor needs to have more respect and sportsmanship for other drivers when rejoining the track, F1 would become more dangerous if everyone did this, and this isn't what F1 needs.

[ShiftingGears]

I thought Kobayashi was a bit of a donkey. Some great moves throughout the race, but at other times erratic on track and of course bowling over his pit crew. Maldonado just had the one mistake, a pretty clumsy error but I wouldn't look into it more than that. However he needs a few clean weekends.

I am a bit disappointed by Lotus and Sauber, both capable of more points than they achieved. I would like to see more race winners this season, and if Lotus just gets everything right (or at least incident free) then they have a good chance of winning.

Drivers of the race are Alonso and Webber.

[Malbec]

Cant say I agree, why would any driver have in the back of his mind "I dont want to go near him, I a frightened he will crash into me" and simply let him past without fighting for position?

What are the rules for rejoining the track? Pastor needs to have more respect and sportsmanship for other drivers when rejoining the track, F1 would become more dangerous if everyone did this, and this isn't what F1 needs.

Actually drivers can and do alter how they overtake depending on who they are overtaking. They know different drivers have different personalities, some will cave in, others are likely to make a mistake. Some drivers are extremely harsh but very fair, others are fully prepared to risk a collision, rules and fairness be damned. Overtaking Trulli is an entirely different prospect from overtaking Webber or Schumacher for example.

Taking account of this is part of racing, or should I say intelligent racing.

Now Sergio made clear that everyone in the paddock thinks that Pastor is utterly crazy and disrespectful. I'm inclined to agree with him. If Sergio knew this however, why did he choose a particular place and method to overtake that required Pastor to behave absolutely like a schoolboy in order to pull it off?

Of course on paper Sergio is 100% in the clear but regardless he scored 0 points as a result of the coming together which he could have avoided had he gone about it a different way.

[DexDexter]

Sergio was very controlled and mature in his criticisms of Pastor. He didn't call him silly names, or lose his temper. His criticism was frank, but fair in light of the situation. Not everybody wants a PR robot to be interviewed, and we should enjoy this rare glimpse of passion shown by a driver who felt his race was ruined through Pastors loss of control. Lets not forget it was only Monaco where Pastor swerved off the racing line and across the front of Sergio's wing in an obvious act of frustration to which he was punished. He did the same thing to Hamilton at Spa in 2011, so has shown a tempremental element when edged out or beaten. This was a trait many disliked about Schumacher and Pastor needs to learn quickly as modern F1 doesn't tolerate such behaviour.

I agree, and IMO without Kimi being extra careful with Maldonado on a couple of occasions, we would have at least two more collisions by now.

[wedge]

As for Sergio he's been making some odd comments lately. After his podium in Canada he claimed he was happy for the team as Sauber hadn't scored any points since his last podium in Malaysia. I thought this was odd and looked it up, of course Sauber had scored points but Sergio hadn't. I guess Kobayashi drives for a different team then...

Then before Silverstone he claimed that Sauber just HAD to improve its qualifying performance because he'd failed to break into Q3 for several races. Again I guess Kobayashi drivers for a different team because he's been doing just fine in the other blue and white car....

I had heard on the grapevine that Ferrari were going cool on him because his head has been growing too big lately and he's a difficult guy to work with. I'm starting to believe that.

Same could be said of Alonso.

"Renault don't support me enough"

"It was me who found sixth tenths"

"I'm the number one driver or else I'll tell the whole world you're cheating"

[SGWilko]

why did he choose a particular place and method to overtake

Take advantage of the the situation before the tyres got upto temp. Intelligent driving, except for Pastor of course......

[Knock-on]

Malbec

Sometimes you make great sense and then???

You may go into a corner and think; "he might bottle it" or "he wont compromise" but you don't think " I wont go for this otherwise this ****er will take me off for trying.

Thats the old Schumy era and it won with Hill but the FIA decided to say enough is enough after Jacques and they will with Pastor. He needs to sort himself out and pronto.

Mind you, when your sponsors py £30m for your seat, you don't care.

[Malbec]

You may go into a corner and think; "he might bottle it" or "he wont compromise" but you don't think " I wont go for this otherwise this ****er will take me off for trying.

I'm not suggesting that Perez shouldn't have overtaken Maldonaldo but subtleties seem to get lost in this forum.

I'm saying he shouldn't have overtaken in the manner he did, hugging the Williams on the outside so any mistake by Pastor would have resulted in contact between the two. Either he should have gone somewhere else or given Pastor more room and as Sergio's outburst later showed he damn well knew that there was a big risk of Pastor doing something silly (deliberate or accidental). It was an unnecessary risk in a situation where Sergio stood to win some points at the end of the day.

[Tazio]

Whiting states that: “Any driver defending his position on a straight and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his” (emphasis as in original document).

“Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.”

Whiting goes on to define the term “significant portion”, stating that this applies if the car attempting to pass gets any part of its front wing alongside the rear wheels of the car in front.
FIA issues new clarification on defensive driving - F1 Fanatic (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/07/12/fia-issues-clarification-defensive-driving/)

I wonder what made Chuck think the rule needed clarification? :dozey: :p :

[Bagwan]

I'm not suggesting that Perez shouldn't have overtaken Maldonaldo but subtleties seem to get lost in this forum.

I'm saying he shouldn't have overtaken in the manner he did, hugging the Williams on the outside so any mistake by Pastor would have resulted in contact between the two. Either he should have gone somewhere else or given Pastor more room and as Sergio's outburst later showed he damn well knew that there was a big risk of Pastor doing something silly (deliberate or accidental). It was an unnecessary risk in a situation where Sergio stood to win some points at the end of the day.

Malbec , sometimes you make great sense , and then you agree with me . Hee hee .

The way I see it , Sergio could have gone that little bit wider , and left a little more room for Pastor .
If he had , the likelyhood was , that Pastor would have left the corner , tail-happy , and Sergio would have had him easily , as his opponent would have lost his momentum .
If Perez really believes what he said about Maldonado , he would have waited for a better moment .

Simply , when taking advantage of a guy with cold tires , whether he be the most or least trusted of your opponents , it is a questionable act to put your vehicle in the way of a potential slide .

[kfzmeister]

FIA issues new clarification on defensive driving - F1 Fanatic (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/07/12/fia-issues-clarification-defensive-driving/)

I wonder what made Chuck think the rule needed clarification? :dozey: :p :

This clarification is in direct relation to the two aggressive moves Rosberg made in Bahrain against Ham and Zo....

[Tazio]

This clarification is in direct relation to the two aggressive moves Rosberg made in Bahrain against Ham and Zo....

When joking it is helpful if you use an emoticon. Some people may take you seriously. ;)

The governing body's Charlie Whiting issued a directive to the teams at the British Grand Prix after concerns were expressed on a number of occasions that certain drivers were defending in an over-aggressive manner.
FIA clarifies defensive driving guidelines* (http://thef1times.com/news/display/06427)

[Tazio]

This clarification is in direct relation to the two aggressive moves Rosberg made in Bahrain against Ham and Zo.... I stand corrected :dork:


The ruling comes after several controversial incidents this year in which drivers have vigorously defended their positions and in some cases forced challenging rivals off the circuit.

One of the most publicised of these cases came at the Bahrain Grand Prix when Nico Rosberg of Mercedes robustly defended his position from attacks, or attempts to pass, by Lewis Hamilton in a McLaren and then Fernando Alonso of Ferrari.

Both challenging drivers felt aggrieved at the way in which Rosberg moved his car to defend his position, forcing them to run wide and in Hamilton's case off the circuit completely.

The race stewards investigated the incidents at the time and took no action because it was said that no "significant part" of either Hamilton or Alonso's cars was alongside Rosberg at the time./
The clarification means also that Rosberg can rest easy because in both cases in Bahrain he defended his position without breaking the rules.

[airshifter]

Short version of the above. Fred and Lewis did some crying that Nico didn't just move over for them. :D

[SGWilko]

In hindsight both drivers should have pulled to the side of the track and thought long and hard about how they were going to take the corner. Sod trying to do it at 130mph side by side and arcing each other, take their time and consider all the outcomes. :p

The marshalls should be on hand to make a pot of tea - maybe some scones, clotted cream and jam as well? ;)

[The Black Knight]

In hindsight both drivers should have pulled to the side of the track and thought long and hard about how they were going to take the corner. Sod trying to do it at 130mph side by side and arcing each other, take their time and consider all the outcomes. :p

Clearly some people here have never even sat into a kart not to mind a proper racing car. Another more quality driver like Alonso or Hammy would not have done this. You can't be making allowances for other drivers erratic behavior in F1. You see a gap you must go for it. You have to assume that since they are in F1 they are of a certain quality. Maldonado, unfortunately, bought his way into F1 and has the look of a driver that is quite far from the finished product. He's moderately talented but combining this with him having no brain is just a recipe for disaster. I said after Monaco last year and his coming together with Hamilton that it wouldn't be the last of these kind of accidents that he we see involving Pastor and I was correct. I'm sure there will be more to come as well.

Sergio went to overtake legitimately. Pastor, unintentionally, lost the car and ran into him. Pastors fault. Everything else - smoke and mirrors.

[Malbec]

You can't be making allowances for other drivers erratic behavior in F1. You see a gap you must go for it. You have to assume that since they are in F1 they are of a certain quality. Maldonado, unfortunately, bought his way into F1 and has the look of a driver that is quite far from the finished product. He's moderately talented but combining this with him having no brain is just a recipe for disaster.

So F1 drivers must assume that other drivers are good enough even when they know they're not?

[kfzmeister]

Pastor, unintentionally, lost the car and ran into him.

Yeah, i can see what you're saying. After all, his move on Hamilton at Spa, on Perez in Monaco and his move on Hamilton in Valencia all were unintentional as well. He sure makes his own bed!

[kfzmeister]

Short version of the above. Fred and Lewis did some crying that Nico didn't just move over for them. :D

I thought it was pretty reckless. I mean Hamilton has been criticized for that sort of driving. Alonso, ....well he just doesn't drive like that.

[zako85]

In my view, this last Maldonado vs Perez crash was another racing incident. Both drivers chose to drive aggressively, but without breaking the rules IMHO. There was plenty of space for both cars. Then Maldonado lost his car. The fact the Maldonado lost the car in the turn was what caused the contact. I don't think either driver should have been punished. Was it smart for Maldonado to push his car to the limits this way? Probably no. This was an unsound judgement call. I think he will learn with more experience to avoid such calls, or perish. Running on fresher tires he still had a good chance to catch up with Perez, if he let Perez overtake at first.

[The Black Knight]

So F1 drivers must assume that other drivers are good enough even when they know they're not?

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

[F1boat]

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!
Senna answered this to Stewart, as he tried to defend his multiple clashes with Alain Prost. Senna was a great driver, but sometimes he did unforgivable things and came with pseudo-wise crap like this.

[The Black Knight]

Senna answered this to Stewart, as he tried to defend his multiple clashes with Alain Prost. Senna was a great driver, but sometimes he did unforgivable things and came with pseudo-wise crap like this.

I'm well aware Senna answered that to Stewart as I'm sure is everyone. The point is, that you need to go for a gap if it's there otherwise you'll never get by. Saying that it was Perez's fault because he chose to attempt an overtaking maneuver on a guy he knew might clash with him is absolutely ridiculous. You don't get to F1 by holding back pussy footing around hoping the other guy makes a mistake. You get to it by seizing every opportunity. Sergio was not wrong to attempt to overtake Pastor. Pastor was not wrong to defend but it was Pastor that made the mistake while doing this due to his lack of ability. You never know when the driver in front is going to run out of talent so you take your opportunity to get by as soon as it presents itself regardless of whether or not he is an idiot otherwise you're just stuck behind him indefinitely.

[Bagwan]

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .
Pastor did , too , and also had every right to do so .

Both are racing drivers .

[SGWilko]

Senna answered this to Stewart, as he tried to defend his multiple clashes with Alain Prost. Senna was a great driver, but sometimes he did unforgivable things and came with pseudo-wise crap like this.

It was specifically in answer, having been questioned by Stewart about the McLaren team mates coming together at Suzuka 1989.

This of course, as we all know, was when Balestre suggested drivers double back if they go into the escape road to avoid disqualification.

1990's collision at Suzuka, was due to Balestre's favouritism to Prost by moving the pole spot....

Nice try though! ;)

[SGWilko]

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .
Pastor did , too , and also had every right to do so .

Both are racing drivers .

To suggest they both were going for the same gap hints that a third party was involved....

Shergar?

[Malbec]

Saying that it was Perez's fault

Black and white thinking again?

Did I say it was Perez's fault?

Any interpretation of the regulations would find that collision was merely a racing incident or Maldonaldo's fault and that Perez was not at fault. But we're not talking about black and white, right and wrong here. I'm asking whether it was a wise decision or not which is a very different matter entirely, and your very own posts eloquently explain why it wasn't wise, in fact it was a rather stupid move on Perez' part.


Sergio was not wrong to attempt to overtake Pastor. Pastor was not wrong to defend but it was Pastor that made the mistake while doing this due to his lack of ability. You never know when the driver in front is going to run out of talent so you take your opportunity to get by as soon as it presents itself regardless of whether or not he is an idiot otherwise you're just stuck behind him indefinitely.

And do you do that by placing yourself exactly where you would be taken off by the driver in front if/when he runs out of talent?

Was that a wise move do you think?

[Malbec]

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

Except that Senna never lived by this rule. Nor did any other driver you can classify as a true great.

Truly great drivers know when discretion is the better part of valour and when to really go for it.

Those who live by Senna's maxim have short careers littered with shards of carbon fibre, usually their own.

[kfzmeister]

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .


That's quite a "gap" he went for! :rolleyes:

[airshifter]

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .
Pastor did , too , and also had every right to do so .

Both are racing drivers .

Well really, once one car is in the space (in this case Sergio) the gap no longer exists, thus the other driver can't go for it. This is what causes the collision, going for a gap that no longer exists! :)


In this case racing incident, but I don't think Pastor even tried to make the corner very hard. He was jumping into the already closed gap to try to defend IMO, and did it a bit late.

[Bagwan]

Well really, once one car is in the space (in this case Sergio) the gap no longer exists, thus the other driver can't go for it. This is what causes the collision, going for a gap that no longer exists! :)


In this case racing incident, but I don't think Pastor even tried to make the corner very hard. He was jumping into the already closed gap to try to defend IMO, and did it a bit late.

According to Pastor , he lost the front end , and then the back .

If he hadn't lost either , and had managed the grip he needed , there was space left inside .

If that had happened , we might all be lauding the brave effort of the young Mexican , daring to drive around the outside of a driver on cold tires .

[Bagwan]

I hope something more exciting happens in the next race, we need a new thread and discussion topic pronto :eek:

Thanks for your contribution to this discussion . Great insight .

[Bagwan]

You're very welcome Bagwan.

It must be refreshing for you to see such a level honest opinion. This discussion has lost steam because everybody is happy with the conclusion. I can't help but ask what is left to discuss? :s mokin:

Perhaps you missed the post where Airshifter quoted me , and then the one where I quoted him .
We call that discussion .

If you'd like to contribute to that topic of conversation , rather that trying to mute it by saying "everybody is happy with the conclusion" , it might be helpful .

"what is left to discuss ?" makes it sound like you're actually interested in debate . Is that true ?

[Bagwan]

So , you used to agree with my opinions .
Then we disagreed on something .
And , now I'm immature .

OK , cool .

Level and honest is one thing . Dismissing opinions is another .

Would you like to discuss this topic , of whether there were two donkeys involved in this incident , and not just one ?
Perhaps you'd like to relate it more specifically to an opinion I expressed about another driver in another incident . One of your earlier posts indicated an issue . Can you elaborate ?

[Bagwan]

Communication is tricky , isn't it ?

Have a nice day .

[SGWilko]

Have a nice day .

This suggests you are aware of the modern calendar, and are wishing good of someone. Not hoping to terminate the 'I quoted him, he quoted me. we hi-fived and felt great' treatment are ya fella?

[jens]

This thread has started derailing. So unless there is something very important to point out, no need to keep talking here over a very long period of time.

[airshifter]

According to Pastor , he lost the front end , and then the back .

If he hadn't lost either , and had managed the grip he needed , there was space left inside .

If that had happened , we might all be lauding the brave effort of the young Mexican , daring to drive around the outside of a driver on cold tires .

I can agree with that. I thought it was more to blame on Pastor, but the more I watched it the more I realized how tight he had to stay inside to avoid Sergio. Aggressive move on both drivers part, and as much as I like Perez a racing incident IMO.

[Bagwan]

I can agree with that. I thought it was more to blame on Pastor, but the more I watched it the more I realized how tight he had to stay inside to avoid Sergio. Aggressive move on both drivers part, and as much as I like Perez a racing incident IMO.

Spot on .
Thank-you , airshifter .