Texas- Firestone 550 Race Thread

[DanicaFan]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/firestonelogotexas.jpg

Race 7 of 16

Race - Firestone 550

Location - Texas Motor Speedway, Fort Worth, TX

Date - Saturday, June 9th

Time & TV Schedule - Pre-Race Show - 8:00PM Eastern , Green Flag - Approx. 8:15PM Eastern- NBC Sports Network

Course Type - 1.5 Mile Oval

Distance - 228 Laps / 342 Miles (550km)

Practice Sessions -

Friday, June 8th - 1:30-2:45PM & 7:45-8:15PM Eastern
Saturday, June 9th Systems Check - 2:20-2:25PM Eastern

Qualifications - Friday, June 8th -4:30 -6:00PM Eastern


Texas Motor Speedway Track Facts

Length - 1.5 Miles
Banking - 24 degrees in Turns & 5 degrees on straights

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/Texas-Motor-Speedway-Aerial-1.jpg


2011 Twin 275's Race Information

Race 1 Winner -Dario Franchitti
Race 1 Pole Sitter - Alex Tagliani -215.186mph
Time Of Race - 54 minutes & 47 seconds
Average Speed- 181.649 mph
Cautions - 1 for 10 laps
Margin Of Victory -.053 seconds
Lead Changes - 6

Race 2 Winner - Will Power
Race 2 Pole Sitter - Tony Kanaan (By Draw)
Time Of Race - 48 minutes & 9 seconds
Average Speed - 206.693 mph
Cautions - None
Margin Of Victory - .947 seconds
Lead Changes - 8

[DanicaFan]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/texasentrylist.jpg

[00steven]

A bit apprehensive, but I'm sure this will be a good safe race.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Yes, and that's no surprise at all. I really don't understand why people are still whining about the safety of Texas Motor Speedway and other 1,5 mile ovals because there never has been a fatal accident on this track, while they even ran here twice a year from 1998 until 2004. The horrific accident at Las Vegas Motor Speedway was just a perfect storm, which sadly claimed the life of Dan Wheldon but that doesn't mean we should ban racing on 1,5 mile high banked ovals. Of course it's going to be safe but it's going to be very exciting with maybe 4 -wide racing. :D This is definitely one of my favorite races of the year, I'm looking forward to this 550k event for sure. :)

And for those who disagree with me or find my opinion a little disrespectful, keep in mind that Dan Wheldon loved those tracks and that he did a great job with doing the commentary for the Twin 275s event of last year.

Enjoy the race and don't be scared, motorsports are just dangerous... Nothing can be done against that.

[FIAT1]

A bit apprehensive, but I'm sure this will be a good safe race.

Same here, I hope for safe race.

[DanicaFan]

A bit apprehensive, but I'm sure this will be a good safe race.

Im not apprehensive. Its going to be a good, safe race. They have raced here for a long time with no problems. Im just ready to see some ovals, tired of streets.

[00steven]

Im not apprehensive. Its going to be a good, safe race. They have raced here for a long time with no problems. Im just ready to see some ovals, tired of streets.

I think Kenny Brack would disagree.

[Anubis]

I think Kenny Brack would disagree.

As might Davey Hamilton.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Yeah, of course Kenny would probably disagree but you can't race on any oval anymore, if you're getting concerned about safety... Did we react like this after Tony Renna's and/or Paul Dana's accident? No. So I don't see the point in being concerned about this race, only because it's a 1,5 mile high banked oval..

[Nikki Katz]

The pack racing at Vegas was much much worse than at Texas last year. I could see the Las Vegas crash coming a mile off, surprised it wasn't a few laps earlier when Tagliani swiped at Briscoe, which could've been even worse. There were a few extra cars at Vegas to complicate things further though. I'm a little concerned about the new car, given how hard it was to break into a lead at Indy, if that will just aggravate pack racing a bit, when it was supposed to be making things better. But if there's no room to run inside each others' wheels then surely that's a good thing.

Hopefully it'll be good, it probably will be, though I'm still a little nervous.

[00steven]

It's not pack racing I'm worried about. It's the fact that we have seen Marco get air at Long Beach going much slower. Texas is one of those races that makes me nervous, even before Vegas. It's been that way for me since CART had their debacle back in 2001.

I'm sure the drivers will mind their manners but having these cars on such a small track creates extremely close racing. At least at Indy, California, Michigan there is room to seperate and make passes.

I'm all for racing at ovals, Indy is my favorite thing in the world. But I'd be lying if I said that I'm not nervous.

[FIAT1]

Wally Dallenbach chef stewart of CART visited speedway when built and stated that is beautiful facility but it is not build for Indycars. We don't know how these cars will beahave and as I could see at Indy they are still lifting. People like Wally, drivers and team owners have reservations and are uncomfortable and all of us here are hoping for great safe race ,but to be cavalier about it is litle amateurish and ignorant.

[DanicaFan]

I think Kenny Brack would disagree.

Every track has had bad crashes. Look at how many drivers were killed at Indy yet every driver wants to be in it.

[DanicaFan]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/texas2012pits.jpg

[00steven]

Every track has had bad crashes. Look at how many drivers were killed at Indy yet every driver wants to be in it.

The driver is in control at Indy.

[Phoenixent]

Every track has had bad crashes. Look at how many drivers were killed at Indy yet every driver wants to be in it.

Indy and Texas are completely different tracks as the drivers control the speed at Indy and Texas is 100% throttle all the time. Besides most of those drivers killed at Indy were before the advent of the safety features they have now. High Bank tracks like Texas have been killing drivers since they were made like the old board tracks. As long as there is this soft mass moving at high speeds there is a chance for something bad to happen no matter if it's high bank oval, super speedway, bull ring, road course or street course.

[FIAT1]

Congrats to Tags for the pole.

[00steven]

Good job by Tag.

[DanicaFan]

Alex Tagliani grabs the pole for the race. Here is the starting lineup..

1. #98 Alex Tagliani -215.691 mph
2. #10 Dario Franchitti - 215.646 mph
3. #38 Graham Rahal -215.554 mph
4. #9 Scott Dixon -215.331 mph
5. #12 Will Power -215.116 mph
6. #27 James Hinchchliffe -214.920 mph
7. #11 Tony Kanaan -214.701 mph
8. #14 Mike Conway -214.458 mph
9. #26 Marco Andretti -214.424 mph
10. #15 Takuma Sato -214.196 mph
11. #77 Simon Pagenaud -214.082 mph
12. #2 Ryan Briscoe -214.060 mph
13. #22 Oriol Servia -213.957 mph
14. #8 Rubens Barrichello -213.949 mph
15. #28 Ryan Hunter-Reay -213.927 mph
16. #5 EJ Viso -213.444 mph
17. #3 Helio Castroneves -213.402 mph
18. #83 Charlie Kimball -212.833 mph
19. #18 Justin Wilson -212.136 mph
20. #20 Ed Carpenter -211.643 mph
21. #19 James Jakes -211.245 mph
22. #6 Katherine Legge -210.543 mph
23. #78 Simona De Silvestro -204.066 mph
24. #4 JR Hildebrand -202.596 mph
25. #67 Josef Newgarden - No time

[DanicaFan]

Some penalties to be aware of at this race...

Mike Conway will receive a 10 grid spot penalty for an unapproved engine change after Belle Isle.
Takuma Sato will receive a 10 grid penalty for an unapproved engine change after the final practice.

[heliocastroneves#3]

It's going to be exciting guys, can't wait!

[Odie Stracs]

Looking forward to this one...good to hear Dario come out and say Indy tech and teams say they had got a good balance with the downforce and handling..let the drivers do the driving and stay safe!

Hope my fav drivers arnt the first four out like they were last week!!!! Now, do i stay up till 2am and watch it live or Sky + it...??

[SarahFan]

What time (eastern) is the green

[kaputt]

Are there any online, live streams of this race? I'm currently at a place with no cable.

[numanoid]

Stands aren't very full.

[shazbot]

Stands aren't very full.

Wow this is dull. Amature hour in the pit lane as well.

[Alexamateo]

Congratulations to Justin Wilson and Dale Coyne!!!

[DanicaFan]

That was a good race. Congrats to Justin Wilson. I was shocked at how many problems there were in the pits tonight though.

[FIAT1]

Congrats to Justin, to bad for Graham, race was good and I think this is last time there.

[jimispeed]

That was a frick'n great race!! I haven't seen a race like that (CART/ Champcar/ Indycar) in a long time.Great job Indycar!! I hope to see this venue again!!!

[jimispeed]

Wow this is dull. Amature hour in the pit lane as well.

Well, if this was dull, I'll take drivers earning their positions and not being able to stay flat out any day!! Manhandling a car is what racing is all about!!

[djparky]

Well, if this was dull, I'll take drivers earning their positions and not being able to stay flat out any day!! Manhandling a car is what racing is all about!!

agreed- so much better than the scary pack racing of the IRL days at this track- reminded me of some of the CART oval races- great to see/hear drivers lifting off, changing gear again and making the difference rather than mashing the accelerator and steering the car

hard luck Rahal and Dixon- both deserved to win the race- well done Wilson- great to see one of the smaller teams win

overall great job Indy Car- for running a safer race at Texas. Couldn't help but notice the lack of spectators though

[00steven]

Congrats to Justin! I can't believe Graham hit the wall.

Didn't agree with the Power penalty though...

[00steven]

Wow this is dull. Amature hour in the pit lane as well.

Why don't you go watch the IR...oh wait never mind, you can't anymore.

[FIAT1]

I think this race was a good race.Most of these drivers displayed great skill ,but double restart and more hp would be better in my opinion. We didn't se two cars go in circle and not able to pass for two hrs like a trafic of local exspressway and that's great. Passing ,sliding .unpredictable, it was great.

[heliocastroneves#3]

I'm pretty sure we will be back here next year, the stands were not full but there weren't less people than in 2011 or did I see it wrong? If they can set-up the cars on 1,5 mile ovals like this, well return to Chicagoland Speedway and Las Vegas Motor Speedway in 2013 I would say... Great job by Justin Wilson and Dale Coyne, congratulations!

I agreed fully with Power's penalty because he did some dangerous blocking on Kanaan, which wasn't neccesery at all.. Too bad Dixon crashed out of the race, he could have been very close to Power in the standings now.

[Phoenixent]

I agreed fully with Power's penalty because he did some dangerous blocking on Kanaan, which wasn't neccesery at all.. Too bad Dixon crashed out of the race, he could have been very close to Power in the standings now.

I agree with you on the penalty given to Power but I hope race control will do the same to Dario when he does his dirty moves as he was Danica #2 last year with the blocking and they did not touch him...

[Anubis]

Didn't catch the race, only highlights, but nice to see someone else winning. Granted, that would've applied to Marco as much as Justin, but I have to fly the patriotic flag here. He does look very, very British with those guns though :)

Crowd looked thin, but don't know what TMS holds?

[jarrambide]

I don't like ovals, but it is impossible to dislike a win by Dayle Coyne's Team, only his second one.

[heliocastroneves#3]

I agree with you on the penalty given to Power but I hope race control will do the same to Dario when he does his dirty moves as he was Danica #2 last year with the blocking and they did not touch him...
And so do I agree with you.. They should penalize Dario as well, when he does some dangerous blocking.


Crowd looked thin, but don't know what TMS holds?

I think this is exactly good enough, especially because there weren't more people in the stands in the last couple of years. I really hope they DO return, I always liked Texas Motor Speedway. :)

[Nikki Katz]

This was a good race, though a little low on crowd numbers. I hope they return next year, the schedule's looking thin already!

[heliocastroneves#3]

Why don't you go watch the IR...oh wait never mind, you can't anymore.
I was an IRL fan before the merge, and I can say that IndyCar is way better than the IRL was... Give him a chance, he probably has to get used to those kind of oval races. However, I cannot really understand it because the race we had yesterday at Texas, reminds me very much from the IndyCar races at Kentucky Speedway. Maybe they always went full throttle there, but they went 3-wide often and they never produced pack racing. It's so sad that we lost venues like Kentucky and Chicagoland but that's not the fault of Randy, no.. That's the fault of those great promoters....

[FormerFF]

The attendance there has been declining the last few years, I'm not sure why, as the racing has been, and continues to be, quite good. Nice for Wilson and Coyne, gutted for Graham, but I think he did what he had to do, the car just slid wide that one turn. Looked like Justin was faster and if Graham had backed off at all, Justin would have been by in a flash.

[Marbles]

What an absolute treat to watch. I miss my pack racing... NOT! Drivers with an opposite lock full of uncertainty is a lot more fun to watch than throttle pedals carpet taped to the floor. Tough for Rahal but it was hard rooting for one over the other with this bunch at the front. Rahal truly impressed with his run to the front and Hinchcliffe duelling with the Penkse boys has got me whole new respect for him. But Wilson and Coyne outshone them all. Great stuff!

Is Kendall in and Dallenbach out?

[DBell]

What an absolute treat to watch. I miss my pack racing... NOT! Drivers with an opposite lock full of uncertainty is a lot more fun to watch than throttle pedals carpet taped to the floor. Tough for Rahal but it was hard rooting for one over the other with this bunch at the front. Rahal truly impressed with his run to the front and Hinchcliffe duelling with the Penkse boys has got me whole new respect for him. But Wilson and Coyne outshone them all. Great stuff!

Is Kendall in and Dallenbach out?

Good post. I agree, I thought it was a good race and I admit I was wrong in that I didn't think this type of race was possible at a place like Texas for IndyCar. Hope this is the end of pack racing.

I think TK was just in for this race. Pretty sure Wally still does Nascar races for TNT and I think they had the Pocono race.

[anthonyvop]

So apparently you can cheat with the aero, get caught and all you get is a slap on the wrist if you are a popular win.


IndyCar announced penalties stemming from post-race technical inspection of the June 9 Firestone 550 at Texas Motor Speedway.

The No. 18 car Dale Coyne Racing car driven by Justin Wilson was fined $7,500 and docked five entrant points for not complying with the sidepod top deck aerodynamic element of Rule 14.6.4.13.

Two teams penalized for post-Texas race technical infractions (http://www.indycar.com/en/News/2012/06-June/6-11-Two-cars-penalized)


F.Y.I.

I looked for rule 14.6.4.13. and it isn't in the 2012 IndyCar rule book. Was it an update I missed?

[jackmart]

^^That is crap!! You can cheat, keep the points, the win and the money? I think it should be given to Graham.

[DBell]

^^That is crap!! You can cheat, keep the points, the win and the money? I think it should be given to Graham.

I think if you read the Speed article, you won't feel so outraged.

INDYCAR: Series Doles Out Fine For Texas Winner Wilson, Dings Carpenter (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-series-doles-out-fines-for-texas-winner-wilson-dings-carpenter/)

From Speed:
In a bulletin outlining the specific aero components allowed for Texas, INDYCAR banned the use of top deck "in-fills," which were legal at the Indy 500, but were taken off the list of options for Texas as part of a package intended to reduce pack racing.

The bolt-on items, which mount between the exhaust outlets and rear wheels, close the gap between the sidepod and the large ramps which channel air around the rear tires. The pieces reduce a few pounds of drag, but did not make enough of a difference for Wilson to win the race because of their inclusion on the No. 18 Dallara DW12-Honda.

http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/111/1110661/1110661_article_img_large2.jpg
A clearer picture of the in-fill piece, right, shown here on Charlie Kimball's car at Indy. (Photo: Marshall Pruett)




It's also possible a bit of communication between the team and the series led to their use in the 228-lap race.

This writer captured the photo above of the in-fills on Wilson's car before the first practice session at Texas on Friday, and it's believed the car went through technical inspection three times before the race with the units installed.




Ed's transgression was a bigger one for me. The wicker bill can make a huge differnece and his was taller than the 1/8th inch allowed

[SoCalPVguy]

Please somebody tell me why the #18 car was not disqualified for using unapproved aero parts that enhanced performance ? Did TGBB come back when I wasn't paying attention ?

was it because it passed tech inspection and the circus clowns didn't catch it after 3 tries ???

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tech inspection missed it.....I would say that in that case, they cant have clean hands dqing him. Also, note that all those fans who went to the race saw Justin Wilson win. The other guys (NASCAR) have always allowed people to keep their wins even when the car fails tech. Now one can argue about the value of this, but over a little panel in this case, I think a penalty but not taking away the win is valid.

[heliocastroneves#3]

I'm glad Wilson keeps the win, I rather see him winning than Graham Rahal... He did not deserve it because he made contact with the wall, period.

[Anubis]

If the car went through tech inspection in that configuration, it's entirely possible the team made a genuine oversight and had just forgot to take the part off post-Indy, so I think labelling them cheats is a bit premature. It is also possible they knew exactly what they were doing of course, but we'll never know. If the series feels it wasn't performance enhancing and are happy to deal with it as a technical rather than sporting matter, I don't see why Wilson should be DQ'd. Granted, their hand was somewhat forced by failing to spot the infringement prior to the race, so it may well be a face saving exercise with some choice "we're watching you" words behind the scenes, but I'd suggest a DQ would invite counter claims of "hang on, it was a genuine mistake and you declared it legal, you can't take the win away". The question I'd ask is what benefit did this part give at Indy that was deemed not applicable for Texas? Was it purely aero, or was there another function?

Just think, this was a minor part of a spec aero kit. Just imagine the fun and games we'll have with policing the rules if/when the new aero kits are rolled out ;)

[anthonyvop]

I think if you read the Speed article, you won't feel so outraged.

You think wrong.

Marshall Pruett claims that only "The pieces reduce a few pounds of drag," which is what IndyCar Tells him and is not based on any real data. And even if true a few pounds of down-force on a 1.5 mile oval can be worth 100th's of not 10th's of a second a lap and over the course of a race can be the difference between a win and a mid-pack finish. Just ask Justin Wilson

Both driver's should have been disqualified!

It seems that IndyCar is going to follow the bad parts of the NASCAR business plan.

[Anubis]

You think wrong.

Marshall Pruett claims that only "The pieces reduce a few pounds of drag," which is what IndyCar Tells him and is not based on any real data. And even if true a few pounds of down-force on a 1.5 mile oval can be worth 100th's of not 10th's of a second a lap and over the course of a race can be the difference between a win and a mid-pack finish. Just ask Justin Wilson

Both driver's should have been disqualified!



You can't disagree with Indycar's conclusion on the basis they have no real data, only to then make your own counter conclusion when you likewise have no real data. To do so undermines the very point of your argument.

Also, whilst I don't claim to be an aerodynamics expert, haven't you mixed up drag and downforce in your statement? In this example, I don't see how having lower drag gives an improvement in downforce. If anything I'd have thought it would be the reverse? If extra downforce was an advantage at this track, why didn't Ed Carpenter win, given his oval specialism?

[Lousada]

So they forbid a bunch of parts specifically for this race and then don't even check if they are removed? :eek:
And then the punishment is in no proportion to other fines given this season. Blabbering on twitter will cost you more than cheating to victory...

[anthonyvop]

You can't disagree with Indycar's conclusion on the basis they have no real data, only to then make your own counter conclusion when you likewise have no real data. To do so undermines the very point of your argument.

Also, whilst I don't claim to be an aerodynamics expert, haven't you mixed up drag and downforce in your statement? In this example, I don't see how having lower drag gives an improvement in downforce. If anything I'd have thought it would be the reverse? If extra downforce was an advantage at this track, why didn't Ed Carpenter win, given his oval specialism?

Miss spoke about the downforce/Drag thing. Either way it is a violation of the rules.

The Idea that because he passed tech before the race it means it is OK is almost insulting with its ridiculousness.

Suppose one team had an electronic setup that would increase boost and thus power by 150 H.P. at the press of a button and it was so well hidden the guys at tech missed it.

Would it be OK with you guys? He passed Tech after all!

Facts are Facts.

Justin Wilson's car had unapproved parts in violation of the rules. The penalty for this violation can barely even be called a wrist slap. So why should I trust anyone on the IndyCar grid when there is no credible deterrent to cheating?

[anthonyvop]

I'm glad Wilson keeps the win, I rather see him winning than Graham Rahal... He did not deserve it because he made contact with the wall, period.

So in your world a Cheater is more deserving of a win?

[garyshell]

I'm glad Wilson keeps the win, I rather see him winning than Graham Rahal... He did not deserve it because he made contact with the wall, period.

I just can't wrap my head around this idea that someone who hit the wall and was able to recover and go on would not be deserving of a win??? Sorry, but I think that s just ridiculous. Overcoming adversity ought to be encouraged.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

You can't disagree with Indycar's conclusion on the basis they have no real data, only to then make your own counter conclusion when you likewise have no real data. To do so undermines the very point of your argument.

Also, whilst I don't claim to be an aerodynamics expert, haven't you mixed up drag and downforce in your statement? In this example, I don't see how having lower drag gives an improvement in downforce. If anything I'd have thought it would be the reverse? If extra downforce was an advantage at this track, why didn't Ed Carpenter win, given his oval specialism?


Tony doesn't need data, he only needs to say Indycar has it and is lying to you.

I think when the dust settles, this is much ado about something but nothing much. The reality is the tech inspectors screwed up. Just like an umpire can call a ball a strike out of the strike zone. So since THEY screwed up, they fine post race, but don't change the final result. Paying fans and fans on TV saw Justin win. That is the way they look at it. I am with Tony on that not always being the best way to operate, but in this case, the "cheat" was not a greivious and flagrant error, it was at best something that added a lb or two of downforce, but also would have generated the accompanying amount of drag. Who can say but a guy who has had the car in the tunnel how much of an advantage it could be, but I suspect it isn't enough to make a difference if the driver isn't on his game, and the chassis isn't right.

It isn't a mistake they should make again, but that damn umpire still misses calls...

[heliocastroneves#3]

I just can't wrap my head around this idea that someone who hit the wall and was able to recover and go on would not be deserving of a win??? Sorry, but I think that s just ridiculous. Overcoming adversity ought to be encouraged.

Gary

He shouldn't have made contact with the wall, it's easy as that.


So in your world a Cheater is more deserving of a win?

Of course not but it's the fault of IndyCar, they should have seen it. Someone who hits the wall with a few laps to go, should not win the race. That's my opinion; Graham hit the wall and Justin didn't. I'm not the guy who decides whether someone has to be disqualified or not, I just give my opinion about it. And who says that Justin had some advantage with it? He used it during the whole race weekend, right? If it really was an advantage for him, I don't think he would have qualified 17th to be honest.

I know; Rules are rules but who am I to say whether he has to be disqualified or not?

[Anubis]

Justin Wilson's car had unapproved parts in violation of the rules. The penalty for this violation can barely even be called a wrist slap. So why should I trust anyone on the IndyCar grid when there is no credible deterrent to cheating?

Playing devil's advocate, would that still hold true if they forgot to remove something but it actually hampered their performance? A technical violation doesn't automatically infer cheating. Would you be demanding disqualification if Wilson had finished stone last, for example? Unless there's definitive evidence this part greatly increased their performance, I don't think there was much Indycar could do beyond the fines. Beyond that, I actually think we should be giving Wilson some credit for the drive. He was in contention at Indy, so it's not as though he's gone from makeweight to contender on the back of this issue. We know the guy can drive, and given the Texas setup changes put a much greater emphasis on driver ability, maybe that was much more of a factor in his performance than a small blanking plate?

[Anubis]

Someone who hits the wall with a few laps to go, should not win the race.?

The trouble with that idea is you have to define where you put the line. What exactly constitutes "a few laps"? Two? Five? Ten? Is that lap based or distance based? You also have to define exactly what you mean by "hits the wall". Are we talking any contact, even without damage, or only if the car is obviously impaired as a result? What about a situation where one driver hits the wall as a result of an external incident, say fluid from another car or avoiding debris? Lets go back a year - had Wheldon contacted the wall as a result of getting caught up in the aftermath of Hilderbrand's accident, are you honestly telling me you'd have DQ'd him? Also, would you extend it to all tracks, or just ovals? What happens if you go off circuit at a road course? You've only not hit anything by virtue of there being nothing (or at least nothing immediate) to hit. What about a street course? Say you run a bit wide and clip the tyres, perhaps causing small damage to the front wing end plate. DQ'd for that?

[garyshell]

I just can't wrap my head around this idea that someone who hit the wall and was able to recover and go on would not be deserving of a win??? Sorry, but I think that s just ridiculous. Overcoming adversity ought to be encouraged.


He shouldn't have made contact with the wall, it's easy as that.

Well of course he shouldn't have made contact with the wall, but are you honestly saying because he did he should be disqualified or something? If so that is just patently ridiculous. This sport has been built on a foundation of teams and drivers overcoming adversity and its history is full of such regaled stories. To now say an adversity, such as hitting the wall, means a driver does not deserve a win just flies in the face of that history.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Well of course he shouldn't have made contact with the wall, but are you honestly saying because he did he should be disqualified or something? If so that is just patently ridiculous. This sport has been built on a foundation of teams and drivers overcoming adversity and its history is full of such regaled stories. To now say an adversity, such as hitting the wall, means a driver does not deserve a win just flies in the face of that history.

Gary


Then Danny Sullivan should never have won the Indy 500. He Spun so he didn't deserve it.

[Phoenixent]

Well of course he shouldn't have made contact with the wall, but are you honestly saying because he did he should be disqualified or something? If so that is just patently ridiculous. This sport has been built on a foundation of teams and drivers overcoming adversity and its history is full of such regaled stories. To now say an adversity, such as hitting the wall, means a driver does not deserve a win just flies in the face of that history.

Gary


What is with this analogy the just because a driver is good that he deserves to win. I thought the whole purpose for racing is that the driver that makes all the right choices and all the right moves to lead the last lap. So does that mean that 1987 in Al Unser should not have been given the win at Indy? There is no such thing as a driver that deserved to win they all work at getting that and I am sure they will tell you that unless of course your name in Andretti. Mario is the only driver that I have heard him say Big Al did not deserve to win Indy in 1987...

I know what can be done all the drivers can draw straws and the one with the longest will win that race because he deserved to win as he pick the right straw.. What a world we live in...

[wedge]

This:


What an absolute treat to watch. I miss my pack racing... NOT! Drivers with an opposite lock full of uncertainty is a lot more fun to watch than throttle pedals carpet taped to the floor.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Then Danny Sullivan should never have won the Indy 500. He Spun so he didn't deserve it.
Spinning around is not the same as making contact with the wall. With Rahal it's more like; If he would have won the race it would have been awesome but he didn't, so he didn't deserve it.

[FIAT1]

Driver who crosses finish line first is the winner period. People who work for Indycar and missed tech inspection should be penalized, race is over.

[DBell]

Driver who crosses finish line first is the winner period. People who work for Indycar and missed tech inspection should be penalized, race is over.


I agree. The difference between this and Anthony's scenario is this isn't some part developed secretly and hidden on the car. This is a common part that is used by all teams for Indy, but not for Texas. It isn't hidden on the car and should have been easily spotted at tech inspection. The fact that it passed three times is mind boggling. I think it says a lot more about the quality of the tech inspection by IndyCar.

[00steven]

Sorry Helio, but your viewpoints on Rahal are silly. Yeah he blew it, but if he recovered in time and kept enough momentum to lead, clearly he deserved the victory.

[MAX_THRUST]

DBell you are 100% right. How did his car get through scrutinerring three times with out this being picked up. Someone at Indy Cars needs to speak with them guys. This is probably why they did not get disqualified from the race as Indy Car are as much at fault for not spotting it sooner.

Great drive for Wilson and its always good to see a team like Dale Coyne win a race, shame it has to be marred by people thinking they cheated.

First to cross the finnish line wins, and if someone hits the wall then its their own fault, how do you think Dan won last years 500? By not hitting the wall in turn 4.

[garyshell]

Then Danny Sullivan should never have won the Indy 500. He Spun so he didn't deserve it.


An aboslutely PERFECT example of my point!

Gary

[garyshell]

Spinning around is not the same as making contact with the wall.

You keep digging a deeper hole! Yes, it is not the same, the two differ by about 1 centimeter


With Rahal it's more like; If he would have won the race it would have been awesome but he didn't, so he didn't deserve it.

But that is not what you have been saying at all, you said BECAUSE he hit the wall he did not deserve the win.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

The fact that it passed three times is mind boggling. I think it says a lot more about the quality of the tech inspection by IndyCar.

Or it could have been added after Tech :)

[jackmart]

I wonder if Rahal had cheated too and gotten more downforce he may never have gotten so loose and brushed the wall. If cheating leads to winning why play fair or follow the rules?

[garyshell]

I wonder if Rahal had cheated too and gotten more downforce he may never have gotten so loose and brushed the wall. If cheating leads to winning why play fair or follow the rules?


Ask Smokey Yunnick or Roger Penske. Both have made their mark on racing by taking the rules right to the ragged edge.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Ask Smokey Yunnick or Roger Penske. Both have made their mark on racing by taking the rules right to the ragged edge.

Gary

There is a huge difference between going to the absolute edge and crossing over.

[garyshell]

There is a huge difference between going to the absolute edge and crossing over.

Yes, it's called getting caught.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Yes, it's called getting caught.

Gary

Not at all.

Was the genius that was the Push-Rod M-B cheating or just pushing the rule book

[Marbles]

Anybody catch the pre-race with Beekhuis going over all the pieces that weren't allowed? They were all pretty large or obvious so I can't see how this thing passed tech. Was it put back on after tech as someone else mentioned? Hire Beekhuis or get your stewards some glasses.



Not at all.

Was the genius that was the Push-Rod M-B cheating or just pushing the rule book

It certainly wasn't cheating... but the traction control they were using during that same period was.

[anthonyvop]

It certainly wasn't cheating... but the traction control they were using during that same period was.

What Traction Control?

[garyshell]

Not at all.

Was the genius that was the Push-Rod M-B cheating or just pushing the rule book

Oh without a doubt it was NOT cheating, it was pushing the rule book. I don't mean to imply that Penske cheats (Smokey may be another story) just that he does take things right to that ragged edge and by going that close you do risk being over the line.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Oh without a doubt it was NOT cheating, it was pushing the rule book. I don't mean to imply that Penske cheats (Smokey may be another story) just that he does take things right to that ragged edge and by going that close you do risk being over the line.

Gary

Have to disagree with you. Like most things in life, the rules are black and white. Only those who lose claim a grey area.

[garyshell]

Have to disagree with you. Like most things in life, the rules are black and white. Only those who lose claim a grey area.

Black and white in print only, they are often times open to interpretation. The pushrod MB is a perfect case in point. It was not specifically mandated in the rules, yet as Roger interpreted the rules (and quite correctly I might add) it was not outlawed either. Roger is one of the best at walking right up to that ragged edge. The rules makers try their best to make the rules black and white, yet words are words and not always infallible in that quest.

Gary

[Marbles]

What Traction Control?

"Tracy confirms traction control use

Associated Press

4/29/2003

WEST ALLIS, Wis. (AP) - CART leader Paul Tracy of Toronto admits he used traction control from 1994 until this year.

He said the illegal driver aid contributed to "terrible racing" at times in the series.

"People were saying there was no traction control," Tracy said at a fan forum Monday night at State Fair Park. "We actually had it, but you weren't allowed to say you had it or you'd get your arm cut off by your team owner and engine supplier."

Teams and manufacturers have accused their rivals for years of using electronic driver aids without admitting to their use themselves. Traction control was legalized last year because it was virtually impossible to detect."

Direct link is dead. Copy and pasted excerpt from another forum -- can't link to another forum.