Stoddart (Wolff) to Williams - Bernie makes another stupid comment

[Robinho]

Susie Wolff (was Stoddart), British DTM driver is joining as a tester to Wiliams (also married to Williams shareholder Toto Wolff).

Susie Wolff joins Williams as development driver - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98699)

Whilst this is interesting and nice for Susie, Icouldn't get past Bernies quote in the article, which if it weren't for the crap he's been spouting about Bahrain lately would probably have been of greater interest

"If Susie is as quick in a car as she looks good out of a car then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in Formula 1."

what a prick this man is

[BDunnell]

Susie Wolff (was Stoddart), British DTM driver is joining as a tester to Wiliams (also married to Williams shareholder Toto Wolff).

Susie Wolff joins Williams as development driver - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98699)

Whilst this is interesting and nice for Susie, Icouldn't get past Bernies quote in the article, which if it weren't for the crap he's been spouting about Bahrain lately would probably have been of greater interest

"If Susie is as quick in a car as she looks good out of a car then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in Formula 1."

what a prick this man is

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't see anything too bad in those comments. OK, it's a shame that comment about a female sports person must often refer to their looks, but women often make remarks about the looks of male sports people, do they not? And he is right about her being very intelligent, I think, from what I've seen of her in interviews conducted in German.

[AndyL]

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't see anything too bad in those comments. OK, it's a shame that comment about a female sports person must often refer to their looks, but women often make remarks about the looks of male sports people, do they not?

Bernie's comment is patronising in the extreme. He is not just some man (or woman) talking to his/her mates in the pub, he's a senior figure in the sport issuing a statement to the press.

If Sauber signed up someone like Bruno Spengler, and Monisha Kaltenborn went to the press and said, "well, I've been ignoring his career in a high-profile, international series over the last several years, so I've no idea if he's any good or not, but he certainly makes the place look pretty doesn't he," then that would be equally patronising don't you think?

[wedge]

Nothing wrong with those comments from Bernie.

I fail to see a one dimensional description of Susie Stoddart.

We live in a society where image is everything and sex sells, perhaps more so in motorsports; just as the name Senna is supposed to be good for F1,(IMO) stupid Lotus retro liveries and not to mention the obvious - grid girls.

[BDunnell]

We live in a society where image is everything and sex sells, perhaps more so in motorsports; just as the name Senna is supposed to be good for F1,(IMO) stupid Lotus retro liveries and not to mention the obvious - grid girls.

Now grid girls I do see as outdated and unnecessary.

[schmenke]

Call me old-fashioned, but I don't see anything too bad in those comments. ....

Indulge me please in the following hypothetical scenario where a senior VP of a company makes the following public comment to prospective female employee:

"If Susie is as efficient in the office as she looks good out of the office then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in the company."

Do you think that is an appropriate comment?

[wedge]

"If Susie is as efficient in the office as she looks good out of the office then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in the company."

Do you think that is an appropriate comment?

No, because racing drivers aren't stuck in an office.

[EuroTroll]

Indulge me please in the following hypothetical scenario where a senior VP of a company makes the following public comment to prospective female employee:

"If Susie is as efficient in the office as she looks good out of the office then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in the company."

Do you think that is an appropriate comment?

Call me an outdated sexist pig, but essentially I see nothing wrong with that comment.

Taking simple compliments and seeing them as insults is somewhat twisted IMO. No offence, dear Schmenke. ;)

[schmenke]

No, because racing drivers aren't stuck in an office.

O.k., then, how about this:

"If Susie is as efficient working on the offshore oil rig as she looks good off the rig then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her work on the rig."


:rolleyes:

[schmenke]

Call me an outdated sexist pig, but essentially I see nothing wrong with that comment.

Taking simple compliments and seeing them as insults is somewhat twisted IMO. No offence, dear Schmenke. ;)

I’m genuinely surprised.

In this example the qualifications of the worker is being evaluated based on both her gender and her appearance.

In my workplace/industry a comment like that from senior management personnel is grounds for dismissal.

[EuroTroll]

I’m genuinely surprised.

In this example the qualifications of the worker is being evaluated based on both her gender and her appearance.

In my workplace/industry a comment like that from senior management personnel is grounds for dismissal.

Cultural differences, maybe. ;) Or maybe I am an outdated sexist pig. :laugh:

[Dave B]

Makes you wonder how Petrov ever got a drive, looking like that... :s

[BDunnell]

Indulge me please in the following hypothetical scenario where a senior VP of a company makes the following public comment to prospective female employee:

"If Susie is as efficient in the office as she looks good out of the office then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in the company."

Do you think that is an appropriate comment?

I would consider it odd, but not necessarily inappropriate. Would you consider it inappropriate if made in the opposite direction, e.g. by a female employee about a male colleague? Returning to the F1 context, let's not pretend that women never remark upon the attractiveness of male drivers.

[BDunnell]

In my workplace/industry a comment like that from senior management personnel is grounds for dismissal.

Let's face it, in any workplace Ecclestone's comments about the Nazis, to give just one example, would have seen him fired long ago.

[schmenke]

... Would you consider it inappropriate if made in the opposite direction, e.g. by a female employee about a male colleague? ...

Yes, very much so.

[wedge]

O.k., then, how about this:

"If Susie is as efficient working on the offshore oil rig as she looks good off the rig then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her work on the rig."


:rolleyes:

Again, not good.

The point I'm making is that race drivers do PR work to some extent which can reverberate beyond the sport. Danica Patrick and Danica-mania being an example.

[Robinho]

don't get me wrong, i think the fact that being a female in F1 is a selling point, and should be used, and likely was used to get her there, as its extra exposure, but the way Bernies quote is structured is horrible.

"IF she's as quick as she is good looking then she'll be an asset to the team" - so quantifying her usefullness on the fact that she is an attractive woman, and no doubt deriding her talent as a driver as he obviously believes that she won't be as quick as he thinks she is fit. And then the afterthought, i've just said something a bit sexist, maybe i should compliment her intelligence - so "on top of that she's also intelligent". imagine that, an intelligent women, and one that is attractive too

Obviously the female aspect will be a focus, and obviously as we all know, sex sells, but there is no reason for that sort of comment to be; a) needed, or b)acceptable. It was a totally uneccessary and unwelcome postscript to the story.

[EuroTroll]

"IF she's as quick as she is good looking then she'll be an asset to the team" - so quantifying her usefullness on the fact that she is an attractive woman, and no doubt deriding her talent as a driver as he obviously believes that she won't be as quick as he thinks she is fit. And then the afterthought, i've just said something a bit sexist, maybe i should compliment her intelligence - so "on top of that she's also intelligent". imagine that, an intelligent women, and one that is attractive too

Well, she hasn't driven an F1 car yet, has she? So noone knows how quick she is. She might be 5 secs/lap slower than the regular drivers, in which case she'd be no use whatever as a track tester. If, on the other hand, she's as quick as she is good looking, she'd be an asset.

I agree with Bernie. :)

Except that she is not actually so very good looking IMO... :uhoh: A fine looking lass, but no more.

[schmenke]

Again, not good.

The point I'm making is that race drivers do PR work to some extent which can reverberate beyond the sport. Danica Patrick and Danica-mania being an example.

Yes, I agree that Danica is cashing in on her, ah, assets, but she is a professional racer already established in the sport, whereas Susie Stoddart is a rookie trying to break into the sport, who I can only assume would rather do so based on her racing credentials, not her gender or appearance as Bernie seems to suggest.

[wedge]

Obviously the female aspect will be a focus, and obviously as we all know, sex sells, but there is no reason for that sort of comment to be; a) needed, or b)acceptable. It was a totally uneccessary and unwelcome postscript to the story.

Why be in denial that sex sells?


Yes, I agree that Danica is cashing in on her, ah, assets, but she is a professional racer already established in the sport, whereas Susie Stoddart is a rookie trying to break into the sport, who I can only assume would rather do so based on her racing credentials, not her gender or appearance as Bernie seems to suggest.

And what about Danica before she did her photoshoot with Maxim?

[EuroTroll]

Why be in denial that sex sells?

And what about Danica before she did her photoshoot with Maxim?

And Susie W. has also not been shy in that regard, has she...

Racer Susie Stoddart Photos (http://www.indymotorspeedway.com/susie.html)

[Knock-on]

Who cares what Bernie says. She's OK in my books and I wouldn't kick her out of bed for farting.

Mind you, last time I saw her was bent over a pile of tyres at the end of season party praying to "Hewey". Fair dinkum to her, she got up and carried on partying after :D

[Robinho]

except she's not a rookie, she's as established racer who has been through the single seater ladder in th UK and spent 7 (?) seasons in DTM, she has done reasonably well, but is unlikely to cut it in F1.

She undoubtedly has used whatever edge she can to get where she has, and the fact that she can differentiate herself from other drivers is an opportunith that she can use just as Danica and others have done, once they have broken into the lower echelons of the sport

[Robinho]

i'd be willing to bet that she will be a good few seconds off the pace in an F1 car actually, based on her relatove competitiveness with other drivers in other catergories, but probably no worse than some of the guys wheeled out to test for some of the lower teams over the last few years

[Robinho]

where did i say I was in denial that sex sells, obviously it does, and as I said, fair play to Susie if she's been able to further her opportunities by either being a women, or doing a few racy photos. it was Bernies pointless comment I object too. the first thing he could come up with was that if she's a quick as she is attractive then she'd be an asset.

[EuroTroll]

where did i say I was in denial that sex sells, obviously it does, and as I said, fair play to Susie if she's been able to further her opportunities by either being a women, or doing a few racy photos. it was Bernies pointless comment I object too. the first thing he could come up with was that if she's a quick as she is attractive then she'd be an asset.

So "fair play" to Susie for advancing her career by posing to the camera half-naked, but boo! Bernie for mentioning her attractiveness? That makes no sense!

[Robinho]

So "fair play" to Susie for advancing her career by posing to the camera half-naked, but boo! Bernie for mentioning her attractiveness? That makes no sense!

She has the right to use herself, and what differentiates herself from 99% of the other drivers out there, and Bernie has every right to mention her attractivness, but it was the way and the context in which he did it. He's not a man off the street, not a team mechanic, he's the head of the commercial rights holder of the business and in that respect i don't think he is showing the sort of respect that someone in that position should be when talking about the drivers.

as for the photos, from what I could see they looked like they were a good few years ago (probably pre DTM) and if she managed to get a few extra quid towards the budget she needed for that season then absolutely fair play to her.

Lewis Hamilton has undoubtedly used the fact he is a black sportsman in a white dominated sport to his advantage when garnering sponsorship, and he has every right to, but if on arrival to F1 Bernie had said "If he is as quick as he is Black then he'll be an asset" that would have been totally wrong. IMO this is no different

[BDunnell]

Yes, very much so.

So you believe any comment about the attractiveness of someone else to be inappropriate? This is, in effect, what you're saying.

[BDunnell]

She has the right to use herself, and what differentiates herself from 99% of the other drivers out there, and Bernie has every right to mention her attractivness, but it was the way and the context in which he did it. He's not a man off the street, not a team mechanic, he's the head of the commercial rights holder of the business and in that respect i don't think he is showing the sort of respect that someone in that position should be when talking about the drivers.

as for the photos, from what I could see they looked like they were a good few years ago (probably pre DTM) and if she managed to get a few extra quid towards the budget she needed for that season then absolutely fair play to her.

Lewis Hamilton has undoubtedly used the fact he is a black sportsman in a white dominated sport to his advantage when garnering sponsorship, and he has every right to, but if on arrival to F1 Bernie had said "If he is as quick as he is Black then he'll be an asset" that would have been totally wrong. IMO this is no different

I don't understand how you can be accepting of raunchy photos, one of the most debasing forms of media in which a woman can appear, and object so vehemently to a fairly mild remark about someone's attractiveness.

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm trying to see both sides of this. Let's see if I succeed or fail. :D

In today's world, yes, I can see how Bernie's comments would/could be seen as inappropriate... especially given his position. Though I have heard female commentators make similar comments about males, and nothing is said (most recently on CNBC, with a female commentator making a comment about the "attractiveness" of a male trader). But when males make comments on the appearance of a woman, at least here in the U.S., that is now considered verboten. So, something of a double standard, but true, that "rule" did catch Bernie in this case.

But on the other side, even though some teams have employed drivers with rather light resumes in the past, Susie's is VERY light. One could (more easily) make the case for a Katherine Legge or Simona de Silvestro being offered this particular test drive, as they have much more experience in high performance open wheel cars, if not much more success than Susie has. I would really like to see a female racer come along and devote herself to being a great racer... and not a model who also races (*cough cough* Danica Patrick). And unfortunately, IMO, Susie seems to be following the path of Danica (aka "The Brand") rather than the paths laid down by Shirley Muldowney and Angelle Sampey. Neither of whom would have done this:

http://img125.imagevenue.com/loc44/th_416441217_SusieStoddart0062_menshealth_nov08_12 2_44lo.jpg (http://img125.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=416441217_SusieStoddart0062_mensheal th_nov08_122_44lo.jpg) http://img109.imagevenue.com/loc433/th_164413610_SusieStoddartstoddart03_431x600_122_4 33lo.jpg (http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164413610_SusieStoddartstoddart03_43 1x600_122_433lo.jpg) http://img133.imagevenue.com/loc408/th_164414555_SusieStoddartstoddart13_122_408lo.jpg (http://img133.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164414555_SusieStoddartstoddart13_12 2_408lo.jpg)
http://img7.imagevenue.com/loc510/th_164415134_SusieStoddartSusie_Stoddard_Top_122_5 10lo.jpg (http://img7.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164415134_SusieStoddartSusie_Stoddar d_Top_122_510lo.jpg)

Maybe it is "inappropriate" in today's world, but I can't say that I'm all that bothered by Bernie's comments in this case (he's made more sexist comments in the past... something about kitchen appliances?). And I guess part of the reason I feel that way is the fact that Susie has apparently decided to "do the Danica". That's her right. But considering her racing resume versus who her husband is and the above pictures, to say that one hopes she's "as quick in the car as she is pretty out of it"... I see that as a backhanded way of questioning why she's (really) in the car to begin with.

[BDunnell]

I'm trying to see both sides of this. Let's see if I succeed or fail. :D

In today's world, yes, I can see how Bernie's comments would/could be seen as inappropriate... especially given his position. Though I have heard female commentators make similar comments about males, and nothing is said (most recently on CNBC, with a female commentator making a comment about the "attractiveness" of a male trader). But when males make comments on the appearance of a woman, at least here in the U.S., that is now considered verboten. So, something of a double standard, but true, that "rule" did catch Bernie in this case.

But on the other side, even though some teams have employed drivers with rather light resumes in the past, Susie's is VERY light. One could (more easily) make the case for a Katherine Legge or Simona de Silvestro being offered this particular test drive, as they have much more experience in high performance open wheel cars, if not much more success than Susie has. I would really like to see a female racer come along and devote herself to being a great racer... and not a model who also races (*cough cough* Danica Patrick). And unfortunately, IMO, Susie seems to be following the path of Danica (aka "The Brand") rather than the paths laid down by Shirley Muldowney and Angelle Sampey. Neither of whom would have done this:

http://img125.imagevenue.com/loc44/th_416441217_SusieStoddart0062_menshealth_nov08_12 2_44lo.jpg (http://img125.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=416441217_SusieStoddart0062_mensheal th_nov08_122_44lo.jpg) http://img109.imagevenue.com/loc433/th_164413610_SusieStoddartstoddart03_431x600_122_4 33lo.jpg (http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164413610_SusieStoddartstoddart03_43 1x600_122_433lo.jpg) http://img133.imagevenue.com/loc408/th_164414555_SusieStoddartstoddart13_122_408lo.jpg (http://img133.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164414555_SusieStoddartstoddart13_12 2_408lo.jpg)
http://img7.imagevenue.com/loc510/th_164415134_SusieStoddartSusie_Stoddard_Top_122_5 10lo.jpg (http://img7.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=164415134_SusieStoddartSusie_Stoddar d_Top_122_510lo.jpg)

Maybe it is "inappropriate" in today's world, but I can't say that I'm all that bothered by Bernie's comments in this case (he's made more sexist comments in the past... something about kitchen appliances?). And I guess part of the reason I feel that way is the fact that Susie has apparently decided to "do the Danica". That's her right. But considering her racing resume versus who her husband is and the above pictures, to say that one hopes she's "as quick in the car as she is pretty out of it"... I see that as a backhanded way of questioning why she's (really) in the car to begin with.

I think you've made an excellent stab at being balanced. Of course I feel the comment was old-fashioned — it's why I find the constant references in old rallying broadcasts to Michele Mouton as 'the attractive French girl', and, in particular, one narrator's remark that she possessed 'not just beauty, but brains as well' so laughably dated — and I don't believe that can ever be used to explain away sexism, racism, homophobia or whatever. It's a weak, unacceptable excuse. However, you may be on to something here with your explanation.

It is worth adding, though, that I don't believe for one moment that any nepotism was involved, given the ties between the lady in question and the Williams team hierarchy. I cannot imagine Frank Williams would stand for such a thing for one moment, lest anyone make that suggestion.

[DexDexter]

Indulge me please in the following hypothetical scenario where a senior VP of a company makes the following public comment to prospective female employee:

"If Susie is as efficient in the office as she looks good out of the office then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in the company."

Do you think that is an appropriate comment?

We're not in North America, maybe you've got different standards there? A totally unnecessary thread. Would it be better if Bernie resorted to Ronspeak?

[schmenke]

So you believe any comment about the attractiveness of someone else to be inappropriate? This is, in effect, what you're saying.

Nope, not at all.
To say that a particular girl or guy is attractive is perfectly fine as it is a comment of his/her physical trait.

To pre-judge qualifications or skill level based on gender or appearance, especially by someone in an authoritative position, is discriminatory.

[Robinho]

Nope, not at all.
To say that a particular girl or guy is attractive is perfectly fine as it is a comment of his/her physical trait.

To pre-judge qualifications or skill level based on gender or appearance, especially by someone in an authoritative position, is discriminatory.

That is exactly my point, far more eloquentley put than i managed

[wedge]

Nope, not at all.
To say that a particular girl or guy is attractive is perfectly fine as it is a comment of his/her physical trait.

To pre-judge qualifications or skill level based on gender or appearance, especially by someone in an authoritative position, is discriminatory.

As I pointed out earlier she isn't working in an office. PR is part of the work, image can make a difference, as do other professions say acting or modelling.

At the weekend I read an interview on British actress Maxine Peake, now waif figure but used to be chubby and played rugby in her teens:


Her teachers at RADA told Maxine to go on a diet, but it was Victoria Wood, creator and co-star on her first major TV series, the BBC sitcom Dinnerladies, who finally persuaded her to shift an impressive five stone. "Victoria did it in a better way than they did at drama school," she says. "I was told by one teacher, 'If you don't lay off the chips you'll never play Juliet' and I was kind of, 'Juliet? She's a wimp anyway'. Victoria said, 'Look, you're big, you're northern, it's going to be funny roles... it's going to be really difficult for you'. Anyway, I did WeightWatchers..."

Peake performance: The queen of TV drama on rugby, diets and Bolton ballsiness - Profiles - People - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/peake-performance-the-queen-of-tv-drama-on-rugby-diets-and-bolton-ballsiness-7618941.html)

[kfzmeister]

Reading all the opinions about Bernie's comments here cracks me up. Asking whether his comments are considered sexist in this forum is like asking a bunch of overweight people whether eating at McDonald's is good for them!!!!
The guy is well over 80 years old, he's a dying breed. Are we really surprised that he said that??? Lmao.

[Tazio]

I think it rates as one the more benign comments to come out of Bernie's pie-hole that has been published. :dozey:

[fandango]

On the one hand, I can see why Bernie's comments can be taken as inappropriate. It's not considered correct in professional situations. I don't think, however, that it demonstrates sexism on his part. I remember reading in another interview how he reckoned a woman would probably be a good replacement for him, based on his views about how women think and act in business, and it was nothing to do with their looks.

I don't really have a problem with someone commenting on the obvious assets someone has, whatever those may be. But it has nothing to do with men commenting on women being balanced by women commenting on men regarding looks: it's about people commenting on people. It's only offensive if you consider that person's looks to be the sum of their being in a situation where looks are not specifically relevant.

And that leads me on to say that I think it's a pity for poor Nico Rosberg that he's not as good racing a car as he is good-looking.....

[AndyL]

"If Susie is as quick in a car as she looks good out of a car then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in Formula 1."

Initially I read that as a casually dismissive comment, made because it's the default position of an old-fashioned sexist to judge a woman on her looks.

But I was forgetting who was saying it. When does Bernie ever say anything by accident? However off-hand it sounds, everything Bernie says is calculated to serve an agenda or convey some hidden meaning.

Possible Bernie subtitles: "She's a mediocre racer who's displayed nowhere near enough driving talent to justify a seat in F1, but she's made clever use of her other advantages to further her career and bag an influential husband. I admire her guile."

Don't shoot the messenger ;)

[schmenke]

As I pointed out earlier she isn't working in an office. PR is part of the work ...

I don’t follow wedge. Are you saying that evaluation of professional skills based on gender and/or appearance is acceptable in some professions, but not others? By that logic, and taking Bernie’s comment as an example, unattractive women need attempt for an F1 drive.

And what does PR have anything to do with Bernie’s comment? I perfectly understand the fact that Susie and Danica are exploiting their personal appearance to advance their careers. They are capitalizing on the “sex sells” angle in a predominantly male-dominated sport, but they are doing this willingly.
Bernie is not making his statement for PR purposes on behalf of Susie. Again, his comment, in his position, is derogatory.

[schmenke]

... It's only offensive if you consider that person's looks to be the sum of their being in a situation where looks are not specifically relevant.
.....

So, are looks relevant in evaluating proficiency in motor racing?

[ioan]

Susie Wolff (was Stoddart), British DTM driver is joining as a tester to Wiliams (also married to Williams shareholder Toto Wolff).

Susie Wolff joins Williams as development driver - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98699)

Whilst this is interesting and nice for Susie, Icouldn't get past Bernies quote in the article, which if it weren't for the crap he's been spouting about Bahrain lately would probably have been of greater interest

"If Susie is as quick in a car as she looks good out of a car then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in Formula 1."

what a prick this man is

Typical Bernie misogynist comment. He's already said once that a woman's place is in the kitchen.

[Bagwan]

So, are looks relevant in evaluating proficiency in motor racing?

"If Susie is as quick in a car as she looks good out of a car then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in Formula 1."

Yes , in today's world , where you need to mug for the camera , reciting the team name sufficiently often to keep the stickers on the car , it helps to look good .
It helps to look good .
That's why the stickers look so pretty .

Sure , we know Bernie to have an impish mouth , what with "appliance" comments , but it's all to get a reaction and keep it on the front page .

It works every time .

He's actually complimenting her on her looks and her intelligence in the same sentence , which isn't so bad , if you take it for that .
She'll be a massive asset if she's quick .

If the PC filter is taken off , or at least turned down a little , it's pretty complimentary in the end .

[CNR]

(Bernie excited by new female F1 driver&#8206 ;)
Bernie excited by new female F1 driver | Fox Sports (http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sports/formula-one/f1-boss-bernie-ecclestone-excited-after-williams-hire-scottish-female-driver-susie-wolff-as-test-driver/story-e6frf3zl-1226325461929)

At 29 i think is a bit to old
DTM series since 2006, racking up seven top 10 finishes in 61 races

[wedge]

I don’t follow wedge. Are you saying that evaluation of professional skills based on gender and/or appearance is acceptable in some professions, but not others? By that logic, and taking Bernie’s comment as an example, unattractive women need attempt for an F1 drive.

And what does PR have anything to do with Bernie’s comment? I perfectly understand the fact that Susie and Danica are exploiting their personal appearance to advance their careers. They are capitalizing on the “sex sells” angle in a predominantly male-dominated sport, but they are doing this willingly.
Bernie is not making his statement for PR purposes on behalf of Susie. Again, his comment, in his position, is derogatory.

Susie being considered quick and attractive makes her and whichever team more marketable.

Bernie has ran a team (Brabham), the so-called 'ringmaster' who deals with VIPs and media. I think he knows how the game works.

Sure, he's not speaking on behalf of Susie or even Williams. He's doing it for Formula One. Take Lewis Hamilton: he never said he wanted to be the Tiger Woods of F1, the media created the frenzy. Bernie would love to see it replicated with a female.

[Bezza]

In six years of DTM, she has finished 7th twice.

I am doubtful, with some credibility I think, that she is good enough for F1.

This is clearly a marketing exercise. She isn't fast enough for the DTM never mind F1, and her husband is Toto Wolff, an investor in the WilliamsF1 team - that may give the game away!

[wedge]

In six years of DTM, she has finished 7th twice.

I am doubtful, with some credibility I think, that she is good enough for F1.

This is clearly a marketing exercise. She isn't fast enough for the DTM never mind F1, and her husband is Toto Wolff, an investor in the WilliamsF1 team - that may give the game away!

She's working as "ambassador" and doing simulator work. Getting some mileage at a test is as far it will get unless something happens to Botas and Senna/Pastor.

[fandango]

So, are looks relevant in evaluating proficiency in motor racing?

I don't really get the connection between the snippet of my post you're quoting and your question.

There are lots of jobs in motor racing, and in the ones related to promotional work, like grid girls or models, then the answer to the question is a clear yes.

However, for a racing driver what counts really is the stopwatch, and the final lap placing. You seem to be hellbent on proving that commenting on someone's looks is wrong, schmenke. What I'm trying to say is that it's okay to comment, but don't make everything about that person be about their looks.

This reminds me of the time a photographer said that the reason Schumacher has always seemed very serious is because in the photos taken of him smiling he looks like a bit of a dork [not exact quote], and so they don't publish them.

What should we do? Pretend everyone is neutral? What about what I said about Rosberg in the earlier post? Is that offensive too?

[ArrowsFA1]

In six years of DTM, she has finished 7th twice.

I am doubtful, with some credibility I think, that she is good enough for F1.
To be fair, a multiple F1 race winner has failed to win in four DTM seasons...

He has a famous brother :p

[ioan]

To be fair, a multiple F1 race winner has failed to win in four DTM seasons...

He has a famous brother :p

Still to be fair he's got very close to winning though.

[Knock-on]

Who cares what Bernie says. She's OK in my books and I wouldn't kick her out of bed for farting.

Mind you, last time I saw her was bent over a pile of tyres at the end of season party praying to "Hewey". Fair dinkum to her, she got up and carried on partying after :D

Oppps. Retraction needed.

Apology to Ms Wolfe. It was a Ms Leggate IIRC. Sorry :s

[Dave B]

Oppps. Retraction needed.

Apology to Ms Wolfe. It was a Ms Leggate IIRC. Sorry :s
Ah, Fiona. Yup, she was well and truly plastered that night. Interesting dancing, mind :D

[EuroTroll]

Apology to Ms Wolfe.

You'd better apologise again, as it's Mrs. Wolff. :D

[tfp]

How about when david beckham did those gay adverts promoting his deoderants? I thought this was disgusting, especially the boxer shorts ad's, but nobody was bothered! I am however all for using good looking females to promote sports. That is different of course :cool:

And sorry BDunnel, I disagree, grid girls are not outdated sexist thing, I think they are a marvelous edition to a wonderful motorsport :D

[tfp]

Oh yeah, I forgot, Ecclesones comments...Cant really see anything wrong with them, although maybe he shouldnt say things like that to the press!

As for Mrs Wolff, I think she is a breath of fresh air :D

[BDunnell]

How about when david beckham did those gay adverts promoting his deoderants? I thought this was disgusting, especially the boxer shorts ad's, but nobody was bothered! I am however all for using good looking females to promote sports.

Why the two utterly different attitudes depending on the sex? And why the problem with a 'gay' advert (not that it was, I'm sure)?

[F1boat]

A man called a woman beautiful and it's the end of the world. "rolleyes"

[SGWilko]

Why the two utterly different attitudes depending on the sex? And why the problem with a 'gay' advert (not that it was, I'm sure)?

Mmmmm. methinks he was tugging at your 'you know what' on that one (taking the mick). ;)

[SGWilko]

A man called a woman beautiful and it's the end of the world. "rolleyes"

And, what's more, Lenny Bruce is not afraid!

[Knock-on]

You'd better apologise again, as it's Mrs. Wolff. :D

Ms in English is the address for a female irrespective of Marital status. :p

[Knock-on]

Ah, Fiona. Yup, she was well and truly plastered that night. Interesting dancing, mind :D

Jason and Matt thought so :D

[tfp]

Why the two utterly different attitudes depending on the sex? And why the problem with a 'gay' advert (not that it was, I'm sure)?

;) No one wants to see david beckham with his shirt off (apart from women, obviously :) ) but I actively encourage grid girls :D
Its not that I dislike the BBC presenters, (in fact I think they are some of the best) but a couple of grid girls make a refreshing change from Eddie's comedy shirts and goatie beards :laugh:

[SGWilko]

[Reaction guaranteed mode on] If it were not for jobs like page 3, grid girls, catalogue models etc, there'd be a lot of good locking thickets out of work.....[Sexist Bigot mode off] ;)

And if anyone on here really is that chellenged, then, yes, I am avin a larf.

[Dave B]

[Reaction guaranteed mode on] If it were not for jobs like page 3, grid girls, catalogue models etc, there'd be a lot of good locking thickets out of work.....[Sexist Bigot mode off] ;)

And if anyone on here really is that chellenged, then, yes, I am avin a larf.
To back you up, I know several people who have modelled and/or done grid work, and none of them were under any illusion that it was a viable long term career. They either did it for fun (often unpaid), or to fund education.

[Knock-on]

What is wrong with appreciating a good looking woman (or man).

Just because some vocal people think its demeaning doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Just that some people out there want to interfere in other peoples life of which they have no business.

Personally, I much prefer looking at a good looking woman rather than an ugly one but I'm just weird :D

[SGWilko]

What is wrong with appreciating a good looking woman (or man).

In today's do-gooder/politically correct/don't upset the minorities society - not on your nelly. ;)

[Knock-on]

In today's do-gooder/politically correct/don't upset the minorities society - not on your nelly. ;)

Well, I have 2 things I would like to point out.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDzatxeRJcDgE-xRyeQqsubPU7n703DmAE-5Vf5dsJKb5-d7sd

I call them pinkey and perkey

[SGWilko]

Well, I have 2 things I would like to point out.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDzatxeRJcDgE-xRyeQqsubPU7n703DmAE-5Vf5dsJKb5-d7sd

I call them pinkey and perkey

And Felix, Felix is what we called her.........

[Bezza]

And Felix, Felix is what we called her.........

And the question is posed again...

BBC Sport - F1 will have an established female driver says Susie Wolff (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18270959)

Realistically though - there are no women drivers good enough for F1. Danica Patrick would be the closest, but she has gone to NASCAR. And considering she was not the best IndyCar driver (although good) and other IndyCar drivers didn't get the F1 opportunity then you could not say "she deserves a seat in F1"

The same goes for Wolff, who is a midfielder in a Touring Car series. There are at least 100 drivers ahead of her in the deserving pecking order for a Formula One driver. That is in terms of speed and ability.

So people can keep asking the question, but until a woman comes along that is really good, then why should anybody appoint a female driver ahead of a faster, aspiring young male driver?

[schmenke]

... but until a woman comes along that is really good, then why should anybody appoint a female driver ahead of a faster, aspiring young male driver?

Easy. As a female, she would attact many sponsors who would be more than willing to pay for her drive :dozey:

[SGWilko]

Easy. As a female, she would attact many sponsors who would be more than willing to pay for her drive :dozey:

[Stereotype alert] Sponsors;

Bodyform
Nurofen
Vagisil
Playtex
Loreal
Oil of we'll make you look a lot younger with our revolutionary fire lighting, bottle washing, carpet cleaning wrinkle removing cream with a suitably jazzy name to get the sheep to buy it.

[BDunnell]

And the question is posed again...

BBC Sport - F1 will have an established female driver says Susie Wolff (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18270959)

Realistically though - there are no women drivers good enough for F1. Danica Patrick would be the closest, but she has gone to NASCAR. And considering she was not the best IndyCar driver (although good) and other IndyCar drivers didn't get the F1 opportunity then you could not say "she deserves a seat in F1"

The same goes for Wolff, who is a midfielder in a Touring Car series. There are at least 100 drivers ahead of her in the deserving pecking order for a Formula One driver. That is in terms of speed and ability.

So people can keep asking the question, but until a woman comes along that is really good, then why should anybody appoint a female driver ahead of a faster, aspiring young male driver?

The sad thing was that when a woman driver came along who was very good, Desire Wilson, sexism got in the way of her getting good F1 chances. I wonder whether the development of female drivers would have been furthered had she been competitive. Wilson, to my mind, certainly deserved more glory than she had. Her two World Championship sportscar wins with Alain de Cadenet (who says 'She drove, I co-drove' if I recall rightly) were both impressive.

[Garry Walker]

"If Susie is as quick in a car as she looks good out of a car then she will be a massive asset to any team and on top of that she is very intelligent. I am really looking forward to having her in Formula 1."

what a prick this man is

What was wrong with what he said?


Bernie's comment is patronising in the extreme. He is not just some man (or woman) talking to his/her mates in the pub, he's a senior figure in the sport issuing a statement to the press.

If Sauber signed up someone like Bruno Spengler, and Monisha Kaltenborn went to the press and said, "well, I've been ignoring his career in a high-profile, international series over the last several years, so I've no idea if he's any good or not, but he certainly makes the place look pretty doesn't he," then that would be equally patronising don't you think?
I don't know, I wouldn't be even slightly offended or annoyed if Kaltenbrunn...sorry, Kaltenborn said that, but that might just be because I still have my testicles.

Now grid girls I do see as outdated and unnecessary.
Would you prefer grid boys?

I’m genuinely surprised.

In this example the qualifications of the worker is being evaluated based on both her gender and her appearance.

In my workplace/industry a comment like that from senior management personnel is grounds for dismissal.
Thankfully not every country is as ****ed up as yours.

Typical Bernie misogynist comment. He's already said once that a woman's place is in the kitchen.
I think I might have been too quick in attacking Bernie in the past, he does make sense once in a while doesn't he :D

In six years of DTM, she has finished 7th twice.

I am doubtful, with some credibility I think, that she is good enough for F1.

This is clearly a marketing exercise. She isn't fast enough for the DTM never mind F1, and her husband is Toto Wolff, an investor in the WilliamsF1 team - that may give the game away!You sexist pig!


A man called a woman beautiful and it's the end of the world. "rolleyes"
Yeah, I wonder if some people here think wanting to have sex with a pretty woman is sexist towards her.

Well, I have 2 things I would like to point out.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDzatxeRJcDgE-xRyeQqsubPU7n703DmAE-5Vf5dsJKb5-d7sd

I call them pinkey and perkey
Ahh, 4 things on that photo that I like :

[D28]

The sad thing was that when a woman driver came along who was very good, Desire Wilson, sexism got in the way of her getting good F1 chances. I wonder whether the development of female drivers would have been furthered had she been competitive. Wilson, to my mind, certainly deserved more glory than she had. Her two World Championship sportscar wins with Alain de Cadenet (who says 'She drove, I co-drove' if I recall rightly) were both impressive.

As I understand from interviews, it was also her nationality (SA) that held her back somewhat. She was very quick for sure and holds the distinction of having an F1 win to her credit. This came in the British Aurora F1 Series against serious competition. I believe she could have been competitive in a WC F1 team.

[seppefan]

Doubt she minds being told she is pretty. i agree with Bernie, if she races as well as she looks then she will be fast. Why are so many people so precious. No reason not to say the same about a man. Pity people don't relax a little and learn to laugh and enjoy life rather than getting all chippy and defensive. Anyway as usual I am getting sucked into a silly little argument.