2012 Australian Grand Prix Thread - Official

[truefan72]

pretty dissapointed with Hamilton p3 it was all about the poor start by Hamilton and that was that :(
but p3 isn't a bad start
and a poor decision to bring both cars in
also did vettel adhere to the delta time once the SCD came out?

oh well

thankfully we only have a week until the next race

[ioan]

Well, Button the best driver.
Red Bull the fastest car

Maybe the other way around McLaren faster than RB and Vettel the best driver as he managed to beat one of the McLarens


What on earth happened with Rosberg?

Usual Rosberg stuff, going backwards during the race.

[ioan]

also did vettel adhere to the delta time once the SCD came out?


he was rather slow on teh track before going for the pit road, so I guess he did.

[Garry Walker]

What are you dreaming about there? What 2 seconds?
Lewis was getting slower and when he pitted Seb went faster and used his tires better than Lewy. Seb was ahead of Hamy before they caught up with the SC.

I fail to see how the SC influenced whether Seb was going to overtake Hamy or not? Maybe you can elaborate on your philosophy.

Before rapunzel pitted under SC, he did a S2 that was 5-6 seconds faster than anyone else for whatever reason. If I remember correctly, he did a 29,9 in S2 (very slow time, but others were even slower due to yellow flags), whereas Hamilton and others were doing something like 34-35 seconds.
Before pitting Hamilton had been 2 seconds in front of Vettel and now was on new tyres and in this idiotic era the first one to pit gets the advantage usually.
So rapunzel was not gonig to get past Hamilton.

[Matt121]

Final results?

[ioan]

i think rosberg overtook on the inside of the track on turn 8

He should have been happy with his 7th place.

[AndyL]

I would totally forgive Maldonado for that mistake. He drove a really good race and just tried a bit too hard to catch Alonso. I wonder if Frank Williams will be so understanding ;)

[Garry Walker]

Maybe the other way around McLaren faster than RB and Vettel the best driver as he managed to beat one of the McLarens


Rapunzel was not even better than Webber today pacewise. So racepace wise there is no question - Red bull is the fastest car.

I wonder if KERS was working for Mark today or did Helmut "cock" Marko make sure it wasn't working today either. Could not have old Webbo beating the golden girl of the team.

[truefan72]

What are you dreaming about there? What 2 seconds?
Lewis was getting slower and when he pitted Seb went faster and used his tires better than Lewy. Seb was ahead of Hamy before they caught up with the SC.

I fail to see how the SC influenced whether Seb was going to overtake Hamy or not? Maybe you can elaborate on your philosophy.

Hamilton maintained a 2 second gap over vettel for most of the race and judging by the fact that Webber could not get past Hamilton despite drs advantage I think it is safe to say that Hamilton would have stayed 2nd

[Garry Walker]

He should have been happy with his 7th place.

What a moronic thing to say.

[Roamy]

This may have been Button's best drive ever - total control from the start

[ioan]

Before rapunzel pitted under SC, he did a S2 that was 5-6 seconds faster than anyone else for whatever reason. If I remember correctly, he did a 29,9 in S2 (very slow time, but others were even slower due to yellow flags), whereas Hamilton and others were doing something like 34-35 seconds.
Before pitting Hamilton had been 2 seconds in front of Vettel and now was on new tyres and in this idiotic era the first one to pit gets the advantage usually.
So rapunzel was not gonig to get past Hamilton.

Seb was on warm soft tires vs Hamiy on cold mediums, maybe this helps you with the puzzle.
rest assured if Seb did something wrong Whitmarsh would have been complaining by now.

[ioan]

What a moronic thing to say.

Well I guess in you opinion 12th is better. As for your garbage language, what should I say more. I hope pino gives you a good rub.

[CavallinoRampante]

Ok, so I was right to say Ferrari won't be a midfield runner. They will fix things in 2-3 races. Alonso was 4th from 12th, and the SC robbed him of a position, and he lost the heat in the tyres after the SC. Ferrari still has problems with tyre heat. With heavy fuel and mediums Alonso was only .2 slower than the front runners, with light load ,he could not get the tires heated properly and was .7-.8 slower.
Areas to iprove:Qualifying, Top speed, strategy. Slow trap speeds made it hard to overtake. Again Domenicali doesn't understand his car, because Alonso should have come out with softs for the last stint, that would have allowed him to retain 4th position.

Not bad though considering the start, 7 places gained.

Massa is a passenger, a non-factor, please get Kubica in the car or the Ferrari-driver program driver Perez in that second car.

[EuroTroll]

This may have been Button's best drive ever - total control from the start

Yup. Button was shockingly good today. :up: :up:

[Garry Walker]

Seb was on warm soft tires vs Hamiy on cold mediums, maybe this helps you with the puzzle.
rest assured if Seb did something wrong Whitmarsh would have been complaining by now.

New mediums are faster than used softs.

It is not that rapunzel did something wrong, he simply was lucky to get through the sector before the SC message came up, so he could go faster than others. Typical luck for him.

If you had followed LT, then you would have noticed how everyone on new tyres (including mediums) at once were faster than before.

[F1boat]

Great race. Jenson Button showed that with each passing season he is getting better and better. He responded to his loss from Hamilton yesterday in the best possible way and obliterated him today. I am very, very impressed. I am equally impressed with Vettel. The world champion showed a fighting spirit, progressed nicely trough the field and although he never threatened Button, beat Lewis, which was important. Red Bull need to fix their qualy pace, however. I am not impressed with Hamilton, I am sad that M Schumacher retired and I am happy that Kimi scored points. Alonso was impressive as well, another awesome drive.

[Garry Walker]

Well I guess in you opinion 12th is better. As for your garbage language, what should I say more. I hope pino gives you a good rub.

They are racers and to say one should be satisfied with 7th is just so stupid.
What garbage language, what are you crying about?

[ioan]

Massa is a passenger, a non-factor, please get Kubica in the car or the Ferrari-driver program driver Perez in that second car.

Interesting. Can Kubica even drive around the block on his own?

[ioan]

They are racers and to say one should be satisfied with 7th is just so stupid.
What garbage language, what are you crying about?

What to say. If you think that 12th is better than 7th it's your business.

[N4D13]

I'm just wondering what happened to Hamilton in this race. Did he have any particular problem? It was strange to see him being considerably slower than Button, particularly in the first stages of the race.

[CavallinoRampante]

That's what I hear, that he can drive, but has low strength in his arm, but he's building back muscle...
Of course he'd need time but Massa isn't scoring points so give the guy a chance to come back!

[ioan]

New mediums are faster than used softs.

So, you are trying to omit that Seb's softs were at optimal temp while Hamy's mediums were cold. Ahem, nice try but it doesn't float at all.
Anyway most important is that Vettel went from 6th too 2nd and he's in the fight this season! Bring on Sepang!

[steveaki13]

Good Race, not one of the best, but an interesting one non the less.

Great Drive from Button today, really would have coasted home 10-15 seconds clear if not for the SC, but a great start and again shows he is getting better all the time, something Lewis can't handle.

Lewis looked so disapointed today, this could well see him on a spiral of poor form again, as he doesn't seem to take losing well.

[ioan]

I'm just wondering what happened to Hamilton in this race. Did he have any particular problem?

He was probably looking after Nicole on the big screens! ;)

[ioan]

That's what I hear, that he can drive, but has low strength in his arm, but he's building back muscle...
Of course he'd need time but Massa isn't scoring points so give the guy a chance to come back!

He'd need about one more year before he can even keep up with the HRTs.

[Garry Walker]

Interesting. Can Kubica even drive around the block on his own? Kubica hype is crazy.


What to say. If you think that 12th is better than 7th it's your business.

Where did I say that? Can you quote me or are you making up things as usual when backed into corner?
These guys are racers and if you think they should be satisfied with 7th places then you need help. They will always try to get a better place and if they stop doing that and are satisfied with 7th places, then they should retire at once. Sometimes you get it wrong, of course.

[CavallinoRampante]

You guys are failing to see that RB was slow on HEAVY FUEL LOAD.... Alonso was faster on HEAY FUEL than the bulls

[N4D13]

That's what I hear, that he can drive, but has low strength in his arm, but he's building back muscle...
Of course he'd need time but Massa isn't scoring points so give the guy a chance to come back!
I don't really think that we will ever see Kubica in a F1 car ever again. He could race in other forms of motorsport, but it doesn't look like his hand will fully recover, which would make it practically impossible for him to drive an F1 car. It's a disgrace, but that's the way I think it is.

[ioan]

Where did I say that? Can you quote me or are you making up things as usual when backed into corner?

You keep saying that he was doing good losing 7th for 12th by going for a crazy move in the last lap. F1 is driven for points, especially in the last lap.
Mercedes goes away without points from a race where they should have got a lot more, due to mechanical failure and driver stupidity.

[N4D13]

You guys are failing to see that RB was slow on HEAVY FUEL LOAD.... Alonso was faster on HEAY FUEL than the bulls
When it comes to the Ferrari, I think they were much better on option tyres than on prime ones. Perhaps the problem with them wasn't fuel as much as it was tyre performance. Alonso was great in the first laps with a set of soft tyres, but when he put the mediums on, his performance wasn't just as good as it was before.

[ioan]

You guys are failing to see that RB was slow on HEAVY FUEL LOAD.... Alonso was faster on HEAY FUEL than the bulls

Really? Strange that he couldn't keep close to Vettel?!

[donKey jote]

It's a disgrace
Desgracia = shame
disgrace = vergüenza

;) :)

[Garry Walker]

So, you are trying to omit that Seb's softs were at optimal temp while Hamy's mediums were cold. Ahem, nice try but it doesn't float at all.


1) Bieber's tyres were quite old by that point.
2) McLaren has no problems heating tyres, you can look at the times done by both of their drivers on new mediums if you want proof. Hint, they were faster on new mediums than on old softs.
3) New tyres are much faster than old tyres

Why is it impossible for you to admit that bieber was lucky to get the 2nd place instead of 3rd place, is your love for him so strong? Why are you trying to omit what everyone could see on their LT, that bieber was far faster through S2 and S3 (but still having slowed down considerably) than anyone else when SC came out.

[Integrale]

Interesting. Can Kubica even drive around the block on his own?

F1: After rally test, Kubica drives kart | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/after-rally-test-kubica-drives-kart/)

He can drive around the block, that's for sure, but of course too early for F1. I hope he gets his chance again eventually!

Good race, have the feeling this could be a frustrating year for Hamilton. :)

[CavallinoRampante]

That would suck... I was hoping for him to come to Ferrari one day... Such a fast driver and great guy.
Still, Massa has got to GOOOO, NOOOWWW! I think anyone can do a better job really. Perez is doing very well, strong driver... time to claim him back ferrari!

[AndyL]

Ok, so I was right to say Ferrari won't be a midfield runner. They will fix things in 2-3 races. Alonso was 4th from 12th, and the SC robbed him of a position, and he lost the heat in the tyres after the SC

I think actually the safety car saved him a place or two. Having pitted on lap 31 or whatever it was, he was going to struggle to make the end of the race without another stop. But still, an excellent race from Alonso. Solid defence against Maldonado at the end. As so often in the past he's made a strong points finish in a mediocre car.

[spudrsca]

I don't understand why Lewis had no pace today and his tires degrated so quickly.
It didn't seem to me that he was pushing very hard, nonetheless his tires were gone much earlier.


I will root for Vettel even if he's not my favorite driver as I don't want Button champion and don't want to hear Withmarsh gloating about it.
Whenever he speaks, it's always for praising Button even when he was not the one with the best results in the team.

[Garry Walker]

You keep saying that he was doing good losing 7th for 12th by going for a crazy move in the last lap.

Where did I say that? I ASK AGAIN, GIVE ME A QUOTE BY ME.

I said that it was stupid of you to say he should have been happy with a 7th place, they are racers and will go for the maximum they can get and yes, sometimes they get it wrong. But if you stop going for risky attempts then you should retire.

[Integrale]

While everyone is finding excuses for their favourite drivers who didn't get the desired result, has anyone noticed that it was a very nice race today? :) I'm not a supporter of DRS, but it actually did why it was designed. It wasn't introduced for easy passes - I hope - but for tighter racing. I think that was the case.

[pino]

What a moronic thing to say.

6 infraction points for this and next insult will cost you a month ban !

[Garry Walker]

6 infraction points for this and next insult will cost you month ban !

Insane.

[N4D13]

While everyone is finding excuses for their favourite drivers who didn't get the desired result, has anyone noticed that it was a very nice race today? :) I'm not a supporter of DRS, but it actually did why it was designed. It wasn't introduced for easy passes - I hope - but for tighter racing. I think that was the case.
Rather than DRS itself, I think that today it seemed to work well just because many of the cars which were trying to overtake had lower top speeds that the people in front -Alonso and Webber-. Maldonado couldn't use DRS well either because Alonso was putting it great S3 times a lap after another.

[ioan]

Where did I say that? I ASK AGAIN, GIVE ME A QUOTE BY ME.

I said that it was stupid of you to say he should have been happy with a 7th place, they are racers and will go for the maximum they can get and yes, sometimes they get it wrong. But if you stop going for risky attempts then you should retire.

OK, you didn't write it but you implied it all the way that it was worth it.
And since when is Rosberg a racer? He sure is fast in quali, but then the race is not his thing and his overtaking record is better not to talk about.
So why does he throw away a bunch of points for something he can't pull out safely, in the last lap of the race?!
I think that Rosberg did panic a bit due to MS showing him the way in qualifying and got busted.

[CavallinoRampante]

I think actually the safety car saved him a place or two. Having pitted on lap 31 or whatever it was, he was going to struggle to make the end of the race without another stop. But still, an excellent race from Alonso. Solid defence against Maldonado at the end. As so often in the past he's made a strong points finish in a mediocre car.

Well we are seeing two different things, Webber was 5 seconds behind Alonso, Alonso goes to the pits I think it was lap 37 or so, hance no problem finishing the race with either softs or mediums on light fuel load.

Safety car comes in, and webber has time to change tyres and come out in front of Alonso who had just pitted. So Alonso loses 1 place and heat in the tyres.
We know he was not able to build the heat back into the mediums on light fuel....

Soft tyres at the end would have allowed him to run in the 1.29s range

[Garry Walker]

OK, you didn't write it but you implied it all the way that it was worth it.
Oh so you have no quote. What a huge surprise LOL.


And since when is Rosberg a racer? He sure is fast in quali, but then the race is not his thing and his overtaking record is better not to talk about.
So why does he throw away a bunch of points for something he can't pull out safely, in the last lap of the race?!
I think that Rosberg did panic a bit due to MS showing him the way in qualifying and got busted.
1) They all are racers in F1
2) You will notice I have never been a Rosberg fanboy and have dismissed him on many occasions.

[F1boat]

Garry, your hatred to Seb blinds you. The kid is a bloody good driver. Yeah, he was lucky today, but he was there, when the opportunity arrived and you can't be serious if you think that the Bulls had a faster cars against McLaren. BTW, I know from where your bias comes - in 2009 and 2010 I supported Jenson and Alonso for the WDC, respectively, so Vettel was the enemy and I bashed him. With him the obvious favorite last year I had no bias and show him for what he is - an excellent driver.

[Garry Walker]

Garry, your hatred to Seb blinds you. The kid is a bloody good driver. Yeah, he was lucky today, but he was there, when the opportunity arrived and you can't be serious if you think that the Bulls had a faster cars against McLaren. BTW, I know from where your bias comes - in 2009 and 2010 I supported Jenson and Alonso for the WDC, respectively, so Vettel was the enemy and I bashed him. With him the obvious favorite last year I had no bias and show him for what he is - an excellent driver.
There is no way Red Bull was slower than McLaren today. Did you miss mr.number 2 Webber putting Hamilton under pressure at the end of the race?

Button was just insanely good today and by far the best driver. bieber was not impressive at all this weekened.

[ioan]

There is no way Red Bull was slower than McLaren today. Did you miss mr.number 2 Webber putting Hamilton under pressure at the end of the race?

Button was just insanely good today and by far the best driver. bieber was not impressive at all this weekened.

Did you see how far ahead button was before the SC, or what about qualifying yesterday (5th and 6th vs 1st and 2nd and by quite a margin)?

You chose Hamy's bad drive just because it suits your agenda.

Anyway, Vettel proved once more that he can race through the pack. A bitter pill to take, eh?!

[F1boat]

Yes, Webber scored some good laps in the end. So did Jean Eric Vergne. These are new cars, teams make funny things with setup and as I said yesterday Oz is an odd track. But I can't dismiss the qualy yesterday - Red Bull were nowhere, the car simply isn't as dominant as it was last year, although it's a good, solid machine. But to progress from 6th to 2nd is impressive IMO. Note that I don't say that Vettel was better of Jenson. Simply that he drove very well. Better than Lewis Hamilton - at least in my opinion.

[Garry Walker]

Did you see how far ahead button was before the SC, or what about qualifying yesterday (5th and 6th vs 1st and 2nd and by quite a margin)?

You chose Hamy's bad drive just because it suits your agenda.

Button was so much ahead because bieber messed up his qualifying yesterday and Webber had no KERS yesterday (what a surprise). So both of them were stuck for a while in the race. After MS retired, bieber started lapping at the same pace as Button and a little faster than Hamilton (in the 1st stint). So there is no way you can say Red Bull was slower than McLaren today.

[Garry Walker]

Yes, Webber scored some good laps in the end. So did Jean Eric Vergne. These are new cars, teams make funny things with setup and as I said yesterday Oz is an odd track. But I can't dismiss the qualy yesterday - Red Bull were nowhere, the car simply isn't as dominant as it was last year, although it's a good, solid machine. But to progress from 6th to 2nd is impressive IMO. Note that I don't say that Vettel was better of Jenson. Simply that he drove very well. Better than Lewis Hamilton - at least in my opinion.

Bieber messed up his qualy yesterday and Webber and no KERS. That explains why they were so much behind McLarens.

[F1boat]

Bieber messed up his qualy yesterday and Webber and no KERS. That explains why they were so much behind McLarens.
You are being unreasonable and you know it. Vettel is an expert qualifier, but yesterday he was constantly slower than the McLarens and the Mercedes GP guys. Nico messed his qualifying, not Seb.

[Mia 01]

AAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrggggg, I´m so glad that Kimi got points this morning. A great day from someone who hasen´t competed for two year in F1.

Kimi will take Lotus up in the sky.

And last but not least, congrats to the superior MacLaren driver, Jenson Button!!!!!!

[Garry Walker]

You are being unreasonable and you know it. Vettel is an expert qualifier, but yesterday he was constantly slower than the McLarens and the Mercedes GP guys. Nico messed his qualifying, not Seb.

Australia Saturday quotes: Red Bull - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98115)

Seb:I made a mistake at the beginning and lost some time, so that was down to me.

Any more questions?

[Lidyana Evians]

Australia Saturday quotes: Red Bull - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98115)

Seb:I made a mistake at the beginning and lost some time, so that was down to me.

Any more questions?

I registered here just to say you've got some serious Vettel hate going here :)

btw, this

Sebastian Vettel admits Red Bull didn't have the pace to take pole in Melbourne

Sebastian Vettel admits Red Bull didn't have the pace to take pole in Melbourne - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98121)

[F1boat]

Australia Saturday quotes: Red Bull - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98115)

Seb:I made a mistake at the beginning and lost some time, so that was down to me.

Any more questions?
This explains why he was behind Webber, but never during qualy he was threateing the McLaren duo. Never.

[Garry Walker]

This explains why he was behind Webber, but never during qualy he was threateing the McLaren duo. Never.

Maybe McLaren guys were just doing better laps.
Last year I often heard how bieber was such a fantastic qualifier and red bull really was not that much better than any other car (LOL!!!!!!!). So maybe the Macca boys were just so much faster.

But in racepace today, McLaren was not faster than Red Bull at all.

[steveaki13]

I registered here just to say you've got some serious Vettel hate going here :)

btw, this

Sebastian Vettel admits Red Bull didn't have the pace to take pole in Melbourne

Sebastian Vettel admits Red Bull didn't have the pace to take pole in Melbourne - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98121)

Love this. Well done

[F1boat]

Maybe McLaren guys were just doing better laps.
Last year I often heard how bieber was such a fantastic qualifier and red bull really was not that much better than any other car (LOL!!!!!!!). So maybe the Macca boys were just so much faster.

But in racepace today, McLaren was not faster than Red Bull at all.

I can't convince you, dear Sir, so I quit trying. But you too can't convince me that the sport's youngest champion is a bad driver...

[jens]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. :p : Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed. McLaren is quick straightaway and builds a gap after starts to get out of a DRS-zone. Red Bull is struggling with tyre heating and start challenging only at the end of stints. Button had a race like Vettel used to have last year - controlling from the front. Vettel had a race like Button used to have last year - challenging upwards after poor initial position.

Overall the race gave a completely new picture compared to qualifying and much closer to the one that was expected based on winter testing. Also closer to last year as the same five drivers that dominated the sport in 2011, locked out Top5 again. It looks like some teams have to work on setups, tyre management and how to get an optimal performance out of the car over the whole race weekend. RBR is indeed fast in race trim, but struggling with tyre heating. On the other hand Mercedes is pretty slow in race trim, worse than expected.

But we have got a good prologue to a potential McLaren-RBR title fight for the rest of the season. Webber finally outdid his Minardi drive in front of his home crowd with a 4th place. :D

Midfield is very tight though – Ferrari, Williams, Sauber, Lotus, Mercedes. Some of their race paces were perhaps hard to judge, but it seemed like there is little to choose between them.

Ferrari was pretty decent at the beginning of stints, but tyre management was an obvious problem.

Sauber – as expected, very fast in race trim. Pérez 1-stop strategy didn’t work with the safety car, he was a roadblock at the end of the race. Hopefully won’t get DQ’d this time, a pleasant P3 in WCC. :)

Williams – after tests their race pace was expected to be good, but it was not only good, but very good! But there has been a lot of doubt about their drivers. They need to deliver the points.

Lotus – the experienced driver delivered the result this time. Shame about Grosjean, he didn’t look too comfortable at the front. But it was the first time for him to start from the sharp end of an F1 grid, so he will learn his lesson.

Mercedes – a bit like Honda in 2006, when Button got pole in Oz, but after that was a moving roadblock. They have a lot to think about. It’s nice to be at the front on Saturdays, but in the era of DRS there is not much use of it.

STR – neat performance from two new drivers in both qualifying and race. It is shaping up to be a nice battle between the two for the rest of the year.

Force India – disappointing. Seem to be behind all of the „old teams“. But the gap is tiny and they can turn it around with upgrades like last year or even on more suitable circuits.

Marussia – not bad considering they hadn’t run the car at all before this weekend.

Caterham – perhaps it was good Trulli left, because nothing has changed at all.

[Mia 01]

Maybe McLaren guys were just doing better laps.
Last year I often heard how bieber was such a fantastic qualifier and red bull really was not that much better than any other car (LOL!!!!!!!). So maybe the Macca boys were just so much faster.

But in racepace today, McLaren was not faster than Red Bull at all.

I watched the race! It was obvious in the first stint that the MacLaren cars were much faster then the bulls. Thanks to superior driving and some luck Seb was able to catch Jenson in the end. Lewis performed at his 2011 level once moore, simple.

[F1boat]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed. McLaren is quick straightaway and builds a gap after starts to get out of a DRS-zone. Red Bull is struggling with tyre heating and start challenging only at the end of stints.

Overall the race gave a completely new picture compared to qualifying and much closer to the one that was expected based on winter testing. It looks like some teams have to work on setups, tyre management and how to get an optimal performance out of the car over the whole race weekend. RBR is indeed fast in race trim, but struggling with tyre heating. On the other hand Mercedes is pretty slow in race trim, worse than expected.

But we have got a good prologue to a potential McLaren-RBR title fight for the rest of the season. Webber finally outdid his Minardi drive in front of his home crowd with a 4th place. :D

Midfield is very tight though – Ferrari, Williams, Sauber, Lotus, Mercedes. Some of their race paces were perhaps hard to judge, but it seemed like there is little to choose between them.

Ferrari was pretty decent at the beginning of stints, but tyre management was an obvious problem.

Sauber – as expected, very fast in race trim. Pérez 1-stop strategy didn’t work with the safety car, he was a roadblock at the end of the race. Hopefully won’t get DQ’d this time, a pleasant P3 in WCC. :)

Williams – after tests their race pace was expected to be good, but it was not only good, but very good! But there has been a lot of doubt about their drivers. They need to deliver the points.

Lotus – the experienced driver delivered the result this time. Shame about Grosjean, he didn’t look too comfortable at the front. But it was the first time for him to start from the sharp end of an F1 grid, so he will learn his lesson.

Mercedes – a bit like Honda in 2006, when Button got pole in Oz, but after that was a moving roadblock. They have a lot to think about. It’s nice to be at the front on Saturdays, but in the era of DRS there is not much use of it.

STR – neat performance from two new drivers in both qualifying and race. It is shaping up to be a nice battle between the two for the rest of the year.

Force India – disappointing. Seem to be behind all of the „old teams“. But the gap is tiny and they can turn it around with upgrades like last year or even on more suitable circuits.

Marussia – not bad considering they hadn’t run the car at all before this weekend.

Caterham – perhaps it was good Trulli left, because nothing has changed at all.

Thanks for the analysis, was interesting to read.

[Mia 01]

And, Fernando Alonso, what a great driver! That car was nowhere yesterday and he took it up to fourth place.

Somhow it´s shame that he has the car he has this year again.

[steveaki13]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. :p : Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed. McLaren is quick straightaway and builds a gap after starts to get out of a DRS-zone. Red Bull is struggling with tyre heating and start challenging only at the end of stints.

Overall the race gave a completely new picture compared to qualifying and much closer to the one that was expected based on winter testing. Also closer to last year as the same five drivers that dominated the sport in 2011, locked out Top5 again. It looks like some teams have to work on setups, tyre management and how to get an optimal performance out of the car over the whole race weekend. RBR is indeed fast in race trim, but struggling with tyre heating. On the other hand Mercedes is pretty slow in race trim, worse than expected.

But we have got a good prologue to a potential McLaren-RBR title fight for the rest of the season. Webber finally outdid his Minardi drive in front of his home crowd with a 4th place. :D

Midfield is very tight though – Ferrari, Williams, Sauber, Lotus, Mercedes. Some of their race paces were perhaps hard to judge, but it seemed like there is little to choose between them.

Ferrari was pretty decent at the beginning of stints, but tyre management was an obvious problem.

Sauber – as expected, very fast in race trim. Pérez 1-stop strategy didn’t work with the safety car, he was a roadblock at the end of the race. Hopefully won’t get DQ’d this time, a pleasant P3 in WCC. :)

Williams – after tests their race pace was expected to be good, but it was not only good, but very good! But there has been a lot of doubt about their drivers. They need to deliver the points.

Lotus – the experienced driver delivered the result this time. Shame about Grosjean, he didn’t look too comfortable at the front. But it was the first time for him to start from the sharp end of an F1 grid, so he will learn his lesson.

Mercedes – a bit like Honda in 2006, when Button got pole in Oz, but after that was a moving roadblock. They have a lot to think about. It’s nice to be at the front on Saturdays, but in the era of DRS there is not much use of it.

STR – neat performance from two new drivers in both qualifying and race. It is shaping up to be a nice battle between the two for the rest of the year.

Force India – disappointing. Seem to be behind all of the „old teams“. But the gap is tiny and they can turn it around with upgrades like last year or even on more suitable circuits.

Marussia – not bad considering they hadn’t run the car at all before this weekend.

Caterham – perhaps it was good Trulli left, because nothing has changed at all.

Great analaysis Jens, I agree with everything.

I too am disapointed in Caterham. It seems as though they have not progressed at all this season. Early days I know but they are still a chunk behind the midfield, and Heikki was complaning his car was a hand full today

[BDunnell]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. :p : Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed. McLaren is quick straightaway and builds a gap after starts to get out of a DRS-zone. Red Bull is struggling with tyre heating and start challenging only at the end of stints. Button had a race like Vettel used to have last year - controlling from the front. Vettel had a race like Button used to have last year - challenging upwards after poor initial position.

Overall the race gave a completely new picture compared to qualifying and much closer to the one that was expected based on winter testing. Also closer to last year as the same five drivers that dominated the sport in 2011, locked out Top5 again. It looks like some teams have to work on setups, tyre management and how to get an optimal performance out of the car over the whole race weekend. RBR is indeed fast in race trim, but struggling with tyre heating. On the other hand Mercedes is pretty slow in race trim, worse than expected.

But we have got a good prologue to a potential McLaren-RBR title fight for the rest of the season. Webber finally outdid his Minardi drive in front of his home crowd with a 4th place. :D

Midfield is very tight though – Ferrari, Williams, Sauber, Lotus, Mercedes. Some of their race paces were perhaps hard to judge, but it seemed like there is little to choose between them.

Ferrari was pretty decent at the beginning of stints, but tyre management was an obvious problem.

Sauber – as expected, very fast in race trim. Pérez 1-stop strategy didn’t work with the safety car, he was a roadblock at the end of the race. Hopefully won’t get DQ’d this time, a pleasant P3 in WCC. :)

Williams – after tests their race pace was expected to be good, but it was not only good, but very good! But there has been a lot of doubt about their drivers. They need to deliver the points.

Lotus – the experienced driver delivered the result this time. Shame about Grosjean, he didn’t look too comfortable at the front. But it was the first time for him to start from the sharp end of an F1 grid, so he will learn his lesson.

Mercedes – a bit like Honda in 2006, when Button got pole in Oz, but after that was a moving roadblock. They have a lot to think about. It’s nice to be at the front on Saturdays, but in the era of DRS there is not much use of it.

STR – neat performance from two new drivers in both qualifying and race. It is shaping up to be a nice battle between the two for the rest of the year.

Force India – disappointing. Seem to be behind all of the „old teams“. But the gap is tiny and they can turn it around with upgrades like last year or even on more suitable circuits.

Marussia – not bad considering they hadn’t run the car at all before this weekend.

Caterham – perhaps it was good Trulli left, because nothing has changed at all.

How nice to see some sensible analysis on here from someone who actually enjoys the sport as a whole and takes no pleasure in misfortune. Would that every member followed that example.

[EuroTroll]

Would that every member followed that example.

Wouldn't the forum get a little monotonous if we all behaved well and analyzed thoroughly? :)

Jens's posts are always great to read, though. :up:

[BDunnell]

Wouldn't the forum get a little monotonous if we all behaved well and analyzed thoroughly? :)

I could do without some of the outright nastiness.

[N. Jones]

I could do without some of the outright nastiness.
I disagree. Nastiness is the main reason I don't post that often.

Anyway, great start to the season. Merc is back to their old self, hot at the front to start, fighting off the hopfuls for 8th-10th at the end of the race.

[EuroTroll]

I could do without some of the outright nastiness.

I don't like personal attacks and insulting nick-names for drivers either, it has to be said.

But just a bit of schadenfreude once in a while I don't mind. It's... human. :)

[Dave B]

Temporarily returning to the subject of the race... Kovalainen has been handed a five-place grid penalty for Sepang after overtaking before the safety car line (source (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98168)).

[N. Jones]

Yes he has. A disappointing start for a team everyone thought would be fighting for 8-10th.

[N4D13]

According to Whitmarsh, (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98176) the Maccas' race pace was compromised due to a mistake on the fuel calculations, which made Button and Hamilton switch to a severe fuel-saving mode. So perhaps they would have been considerably faster than Red Bull if they hadn't had this problem, don't you think?

[BDunnell]

Yes he has. A disappointing start for a team everyone thought would be fighting for 8-10th.

Did they? I, for one, absolutely expected them to have been exactly where they were in Melbourne.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What happened to the pace of the Mercedes? Is their qualifying pace mostly down to their disputed DRS system?

[wedge]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. :p : Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed.

They were about equal.

Button had a better start than Hamilton but the gap was about 3s before the first round of stops.

Seb lucked into P2 during SC.

Poor restart from Seb but gap again was about 3s.

[wedge]

What happened to the pace of the Mercedes? Is their qualifying pace mostly down to their disputed DRS system?

Looks like they have same problem as last year: tyre management. On a positive note they can mix it in top 3 but can they get a podium at the finish?

[Kevincal]

Pretty good race, Jenson, wow, who would have thought he would make hamilton look slow... This has to be a big blow to Lewis' confidence. Another race like this and it will be back to disgruntled LH.

Grojean, had a feeling he wouldnt finish well, not totally his fault but he kinda put himself in harms way.

reb bull, obviously not as fast as mclaren but still very quick.

schumacher, feel bad for him, had a top 5 in the bag and possibly podium 3rd but just a stupid mistake letting vettel pressure him off the track. unlucky that it damaged the gearbox. considerable blow to his confidence and mood. rosberg, not impressive, doesnt seem to be aggressive enough. mercedes goes from a nice high after qualy to surely pissed and annoyed.

ferrari, told you so, alonso delivered, great job from him. massa, hes horrible. if kubica can regain his health maybe him for 2013. if not im sure they will find someone else. this has to be massas last year if he can even last the whole year. another handful of races like this and they might just yank him.

kimi, impressed but he made up a lot of positions because of cars dropping out etc. good bit of luck in his finish position.

safety car was not necessary

[Robinho]

Just a note, but Michaels gearbox broke going into the corner, which caused the off, not the other way round

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

[Bartek]

Guys, i'm searching photos from race in high resolutions (1920x1080). Maybe you know where i can find them :)

[Kevincal]

Just a note, but Michaels gearbox broke going into the corner, which caused the off, not the other way round

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

Oh, well, I guess... they (speed channel usa) were trying to point out something with his gear changes going into the corner but also could it be case of michael using an excuse? To me it just looked like vettel pressured him to brake too late and he went off the same way others did only his car really bounced and dug into the grass / ground. personally i think that is what screwed his gear box and he doesnt want to admit it.

also, replace nico rosberg with keke rosberg might see better results LOL, and to that extent i wonder if ralph schumi would have done a whole lot worse than michael the last few years!? I mean i am a big michael fan but he has really disappointed me. i never in a million years thought nico rosberg would beat michael schumacher so much. im thinking michael should have never tried a comeback now. its tainted his greatness reputation in my mind now. nico is really failing to deliver as well. i was pumped for mercedes after qualy but seems it was just a fluke, car not so great in race and drivers still lackluster making too many mistakes. =/ in reality when you look at results nothing has really changed much from 2010 or 2011... (the whole f1 running order)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Turn one is a 3rd gear corner and Schumacher said on the radio that 3rd gear had gone. So it makes sense that losing 3rd gear in that corner would result in a mistake.

[i_max2k2]

Schumy said after the race, he was losing drive and he went off to avoid a spin.

[N. Jones]

Did they? I, for one, absolutely expected them to have been exactly where they were in Melbourne.

A few journos were talking up how they thought Caterham was poised to score points.
I was hoping they would finally take the next step; but I guess they still aren't ready.

[BDunnell]

A few journos were talking up how they thought Caterham was poised to score points.

True, they were.

[rjbetty]

Well the Caterhams were about 2.7sec per lap off the pace in the race, which ain't bad. They've cut the gap to the front by at least 1sec I think.

btw did anyone notice that Petrov was beating Kovalainen on merit in the race?

[wedge]

Pretty good race, Jenson, wow, who would have thought he would make hamilton look slow... This has to be a big blow to Lewis' confidence. Another race like this and it will be back to disgruntled LH.

It's not really that bad. At this level you get punished for small errors.

On a positive note Button & Vettel weren't able to romp away with huge margins. The 10s deficit to Button was because of being caught out by Perez.

[DexDexter]

Well the Caterhams were about 2.7sec per lap off the pace in the race, which ain't bad. They've cut the gap to the front by at least 1sec I think.

btw did anyone notice that Petrov was beating Kovalainen on merit in the race?

He wasn't, Heikki didn't have KERS, DRS started working only on lap six and he also had a steering issue all through the race which lead to his retirement in the end.

[ArrowsFA1]

Pretty good race, Jenson, wow, who would have thought he would make hamilton look slow... This has to be a big blow to Lewis' confidence. Another race like this and it will be back to disgruntled LH.
Lewis certainly was not slow, but he did look disgruntled and understandably so. McLaren appear to have a quick car which could be a championship winner and yet, like last season, Jenson appears (early days) to have the upper hand.

I was watching a documentary about Alain Prost at the weekend, and he was talking about how McLaren was his team before Senna arrived. I'm not comparing drivers but the generally accepted view is that this is Hamilton's team, or at least it was until Button came along. JB has, by his personality and performances, made himself very much a part of McLaren. That must have had an effect on Lewis, as well as being beaten by a team-mate, which he's not used to.

Interesting times at Woking :eek:

[BDunnell]

I was watching a documentary about Alain Prost at the weekend, and he was talking about how McLaren was his team before Senna arrived. I'm not comparing drivers but the generally accepted view is that this is Hamilton's team, or at least it was until Button came along. JB has, by his personality and performances, made himself very much a part of McLaren. That must have had an effect on Lewis, as well as being beaten by a team-mate, which he's not used to.

And does Button not do quite a lot of the set-up work?

[CavallinoRampante]

L.Hamilton is faster over a single lap than J.Button, that's a fact. J.Button is consistent, smart, and lucky in difficult situations and high attrition races

[jas123f1]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. :p : Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed. McLaren is quick straightaway and builds a gap after starts to get out of a DRS-zone. Red Bull is struggling with tyre heating and start challenging only at the end of stints. Button had a race like Vettel used to have last year - controlling from the front. Vettel had a race like Button used to have last year - challenging upwards after poor initial position.

Overall the race gave a completely new picture compared to qualifying and much closer to the one that was expected based on winter testing. Also closer to last year as the same five drivers that dominated the sport in 2011, locked out Top5 again. It looks like some teams have to work on setups, tyre management and how to get an optimal performance out of the car over the whole race weekend. RBR is indeed fast in race trim, but struggling with tyre heating. On the other hand Mercedes is pretty slow in race trim, worse than expected.

But we have got a good prologue to a potential McLaren-RBR title fight for the rest of the season. Webber finally outdid his Minardi drive in front of his home crowd with a 4th place. :D

Midfield is very tight though – Ferrari, Williams, Sauber, Lotus, Mercedes. Some of their race paces were perhaps hard to judge, but it seemed like there is little to choose between them.

Ferrari was pretty decent at the beginning of stints, but tyre management was an obvious problem.

Sauber – as expected, very fast in race trim. Pérez 1-stop strategy didn’t work with the safety car, he was a roadblock at the end of the race. Hopefully won’t get DQ’d this time, a pleasant P3 in WCC. :)

Williams – after tests their race pace was expected to be good, but it was not only good, but very good! But there has been a lot of doubt about their drivers. They need to deliver the points.

Lotus – the experienced driver delivered the result this time. Shame about Grosjean, he didn’t look too comfortable at the front. But it was the first time for him to start from the sharp end of an F1 grid, so he will learn his lesson.

Mercedes – a bit like Honda in 2006, when Button got pole in Oz, but after that was a moving roadblock. They have a lot to think about. It’s nice to be at the front on Saturdays, but in the era of DRS there is not much use of it.

STR – neat performance from two new drivers in both qualifying and race. It is shaping up to be a nice battle between the two for the rest of the year.

Force India – disappointing. Seem to be behind all of the „old teams“. But the gap is tiny and they can turn it around with upgrades like last year or even on more suitable circuits.

Marussia – not bad considering they hadn’t run the car at all before this weekend.

Caterham – perhaps it was good Trulli left, because nothing has changed at all.

Good analyzed, even if this first race didn't give an entirely clear picture of how good the teams really are (as you said) .. it will be interesting to see next weeks race when the conditions are quite different..
That McLaren and Red Bull were on the topp in Australia was not any big suprise for any one - I think .. The biggest negative thing was Mercedes but I think they will be back already next race .. and Ferrari really is a big question mark - and Felipe ?? I can only imagine how it would be without Alonso - their situation shows that money is not everything ...
When looking something positive and surprising (anyway for me) it was Lotus and Crosjean but also Kimi who gave an clear message that he is back in "the business".. Promissing was also that so called midfield looks this year bigger than ever - but even here - how big it really is can we see first after a couple races - I believe also that Caterham is closer the others if/when everything works for them .. Congrats to Button - :beer:

[Knock-on]

I thought Mercedes had fair race pace. In my pub Pickems I had the Shoe down as 3rd (Shhhh, don't tell ioan) and he would have done it as well I think if not for a uncharacteristic gearbox failure.

[Robinho]

what happened to Rosberg on the last lap, I saw a replay of him passing someone, then he was cruising on the exit of the fast chicane?

[Ranger]

what happened to Rosberg on the last lap, I saw a replay of him passing someone, then he was cruising on the exit of the fast chicane?



"The end was particularly unfortunate with Perez when we touched on the straight, causing a puncture which took away a points scoring finish."

Australia Sunday quotes: Mercedes - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98153)

[jens]

I thought Mercedes had fair race pace. In my pub Pickems I had the Shoe down as 3rd (Shhhh, don't tell ioan) and he would have done it as well I think if not for a uncharacteristic gearbox failure.

I don't think Schumacher would have finished 3rd, RBRs were much faster and would have passed sooner or later. Alonso was also faster at this stage of the race, but Schumacher went out before he got caught. And as we remember, Maldonado was even faster than Alonso... So at best Schumi would have finished 5th with his good defending, but even then he would have had a train of cars behind him.

[F1boat]

I don't think Schumacher would have finished 3rd, RBRs were much faster and would have passed sooner or later. Alonso was also faster at this stage of the race, but Schumacher went out before he got caught. And as we remember, Maldonado was even faster than Alonso... So at best Schumi would have finished 5th with his good defending, but even then he would have had a train of cars behind him.

He might do something funny in Monaco, though :D

[ioan]

And, Fernando Alonso, what a great driver! That car was nowhere yesterday and he took it up to fourth place.

Somhow it´s shame that he has the car he has this year again.

He's got to have some bad luck for what he and slime bag did in Singapore 2008.

[ioan]

Yes he has. A disappointing start for a team everyone thought would be fighting for 8-10th.

Everyone? Not everyone that is in their real mind.

[keysersoze]

He wasn't, Heikki didn't have KERS, DRS started working only on lap six and he also had a steering issue all through the race which lead to his retirement in the end.

More context for you: Heike started the race on softs, Vitaly on mediums. I'm not sure which tire either had after that. Vitaly was on Kova's gearbox for the first 15-odd laps (for a while they were both held up by Timo Glock), pitted later, got out in front, and eased away from the Finn from that point until his retirement.

[ioan]

Lewis certainly was not slow, but he did look disgruntled and understandably so. McLaren appear to have a quick car which could be a championship winner and yet, like last season, Jenson appears (early days) to have the upper hand.

I was watching a documentary about Alain Prost at the weekend, and he was talking about how McLaren was his team before Senna arrived. I'm not comparing drivers but the generally accepted view is that this is Hamilton's team, or at least it was until Button came along. JB has, by his personality and performances, made himself very much a part of McLaren. That must have had an effect on Lewis, as well as being beaten by a team-mate, which he's not used to.

Interesting times at Woking :eek:

After beating Mr. '6 tenths' in his rookie year he is constantly overshadowed by a guy who used to be a journey man, he sure didn't expect it. Heck I didn't expect it either.
But the biggest issue is that Lewis has troubles digesting this situation.

[BDunnell]

After beating Mr. '6 tenths' in his rookie year he is constantly overshadowed by a guy who used to be a journey man, he sure didn't expect it.

Maybe he used to be a journeyman in your eyes, but not those of many others by whose views on such things I would set rather more store.

[rjbetty]

He wasn't, Heikki didn't have KERS, DRS started working only on lap six and he also had a steering issue all through the race which lead to his retirement in the end.

Ah ok - glad to hear it! :)
I just KNEW when I typed it that I shouldn't have made assumptions!

Ok so that maybe means Heikki was about 0.7sec or LESS than the guys in front like di Resta - and Massa...

[rjbetty]

He's got to have some bad luck for what he and slime bag did in Singapore 2008.

Hehe that's what I thought. What is happening these days with Alonso is like payback for Singapore, Hockenheim 2010 and for he and Flav screwing Trulli and Fisi, for which Flav is also now paying, and everything else!

[call_me_andrew]

Quote of the race:

"Is his nose damaged or does it just look like that?"
-Bob Varsha

[Zico]

After beating Mr. '6 tenths' in his rookie year he is constantly overshadowed by a guy who used to be a journey man, he sure didn't expect it. Heck I didn't expect it either.
But the biggest issue is that Lewis has troubles digesting this situation.


Yes, it looks like he needs some Neuro-Linguistic Programming or something to give him a structure for mentaly dealing with setbacks. After making one mistake (the start) he was just unlucky with the safety car to lose a place to Seb but still looked a bit shellshocked at his third place.
He is quicker than Jenson in terms of raw pace over a single lap but his apparent inability to psychologically deal with a setback (ie,petted lip) still gives me concerns.
I guess the Singapore will be the real test of how he deals with this psychological blow to determine if he has the mental strength required for a WDC run.

A make or break season for Lewis?

[DexDexter]

More context for you: Heike started the race on softs, Vitaly on mediums. I'm not sure which tire either had after that. Vitaly was on Kova's gearbox for the first 15-odd laps (for a while they were both held up by Timo Glock), pitted later, got out in front, and eased away from the Finn from that point until his retirement.

Yep. Petrov had Kers and DRS working the whole race. Heikki's problem (in addition to KERS and DRS) was apparently the steering column, he had to steer in the opposite direction to keep the car straight. That's what he said.

[The Black Knight]

After beating Mr. '6 tenths' in his rookie year he is constantly overshadowed by a guy who used to be a journey man, he sure didn't expect it. Heck I didn't expect it either.
But the biggest issue is that Lewis has troubles digesting this situation.

I don't really understand where you get this impression or come to the conclusion that he is being overshadowed. Just because Button managed to beat him last year and Lewis had issues in Oz doesn't by any means suggest that will continue to be the case. To me he seems to be dealing with the situation very well and I have found him to be very pragmatic, almost too much so if anything. For example, whenever Button beats Lewis, Lewis just holds his hands up and says it. When it's the other way around, Button always has some old excuse about the car not being set up correctly or some crap. I like Lewis because he's honest and is willing to admit when he has been beaten. I can't say the same about Button. Button beat Lewis fair and square on Sunday. I would be surprised if that continues.

Button is a prime example though of hard work paying off. He has worked for his place in McLaren and deserves it. He will never have the natural talent Hamilton has but is making up for it through hard work. I really can't wait to see how this season pans out. I think the Button challenge will make Hamilton a better driver in the coming years as he will learn from Button and if he applies himself in a likewise fashion then he'd be unstoppable in a decent car.

[Knock-on]

Maybe he used to be a journeyman in your eyes, but not those of many others by whose views on such things I would set rather more store.

:laugh: Too right :up:

I have had many a discussion with ioan on this in the past but as per usual, he ignores all the evidence and sticks to his baseless opinion regardless.

I remember the old days where Fizz and I were trying to point out just how good Jenson was and he ignored it. I pointed out that the only reason JPM was bought into the Williams tem was that they signed the contract before realising just how good Jenson was and still he ignores it. Jenson wins the WDC in a car that although arguably the best on the grid for the first half of the season, still necessitated beating the highly rated Rubens who had demonstrated his mettle by fairly beating the great Schumacher on occasions (when allowed) and still he ignores it. He goes to McLaren and races against arguably the fastest driver on the grid and still comes out shining.

Yet he's a journeyman in ioans opinion :laugh:

[wedge]

But the biggest issue is that Lewis has troubles digesting this situation.

I think you'll find that in previous races Button isn't particularly happy at finishing behind Hamilton.


:laugh: Too right :up:

I have had many a discussion with ioan on this in the past but as per usual, he ignores all the evidence and sticks to his baseless opinion regardless.

I remember the old days where Fizz and I were trying to point out just how good Jenson was and he ignored it. I pointed out that the only reason JPM was bought into the Williams tem was that they signed the contract before realising just how good Jenson was and still he ignores it. Jenson wins the WDC in a car that although arguably the best on the grid for the first half of the season, still necessitated beating the highly rated Rubens who had demonstrated his mettle by fairly beating the great Schumacher on occasions (when allowed) and still he ignores it. He goes to McLaren and races against arguably the fastest driver on the grid and still comes out shining.

Yet he's a journeyman in ioans opinion :laugh:

Give Jenson a 'poor' car let alone dog of a car he leaves a lot to be desired.

In the second half of 2009 Rubens was the better driver in that situation of getting the best out of tyres when BGP lost their superiority, nor could he reach the 2010 season finale as McLaren were faltering.

[ioan]

Maybe he used to be a journeyman in your eyes, but not those of many others by whose views on such things I would set rather more store.

You know it well that I only believe what I see, and back in 2008 Jenson was nothing but a journey man.

[ioan]

I think you'll find that in previous races Button isn't particularly happy at finishing behind Hamilton.

No one would be happy to be beaten, but jenson doesn't crumble under defeat and he doesn't lose his composure. Lewis does get lost though.


Give Jenson a 'poor' car let alone dog of a car he leaves a lot to be desired.

In the second half of 2009 Rubens was the better driver in that situation of getting the best out of tyres when BGP lost their superiority, nor could he reach the 2010 season finale as McLaren were faltering.

Exactly.

[ioan]

Yet he's a journeyman in ioans opinion :laugh:

Man, you'll never make teh difference between was a journey man and is a journey man. Might be because of the extremely 'difficult' English grammar! :D

[Knock-on]

Man, you'll never make teh difference between was a journey man and is a journey man. Might be because of the extremely 'difficult' English grammar! :D

It must be something to do with the English language but in my opinion, a Journeyman Driver will always be just that. You can't polish a turd.

Perhaps you fail to see what's in front of your eyes ;)

[EuroTroll]

You can't polish a turd.

You can, actually. ;)

Mythbusters Polishing a Turd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI)

[Garry Walker]

Garry Walker, if you say that Red Bull has the best car, then McLaren had the best car last year. :p : Because this year their car characteristics seem reversed. McLaren is quick straightaway and builds a gap after starts to get out of a DRS-zone. Red Bull is struggling with tyre heating and start challenging only at the end of stints. Button had a race like Vettel used to have last year - controlling from the front. Vettel had a race like Button used to have last year - challenging upwards after poor initial position.

No, not at all. Bieber had an awful qualifying and Webber didn't have KERS. So that cost RB a lot of time in quali.
As for the race, well, you want to know if Red Bull was faster than McLaren or not? Well, when MS retired and Bieberl had clear road in the first stint, he closed up by 2,5 seconds in 5 laps compared to Button. Yeah, sure, McLaren was much faster. In the following stints, there was nothing to suggest McLaren was faster than Red Bull.
Christian Horner - 'McLaren didn't win, Red Bull lost' | Planet F1 | Formula One | News, Standings, Results, Features, Video (http://planetf1.com/driver/18227/7608508/-McLaren-didn-t-win-Red-Bull-lost-)

And although Red Bull had a better Sunday than they did Saturday, finishing second and fourth in the race as opposed to fifth and sixth in qualifying, Horner is adamant his outfit is actually faster than McLaren.

"It was a good recovery and we had good pace in the race," said the Red Bull team boss.

"We were right on same pace as the McLarens and could have been faster.


I could do without some of the outright nastiness. Yeah, I could do without people telling others they are liars or need shrinks as well, but what can you do, every forum has its bitter losers.


After beating Mr. '6 tenths' in his rookie year he is constantly overshadowed by a guy who used to be a journey man, he sure didn't expect it. Heck I didn't expect it either.
But the biggest issue is that Lewis has troubles digesting this situation. I think Button was nothing special, but the last few years he has clearly improved. The Button of 2005 was not a top driver, the Button of 2012 clearly is.


Maybe he used to be a journeyman in your eyes, but not those of many others by whose views on such things I would set rather more store.
I think pretty much everyone regarded him as a journeyman back in 2005 for example. But he has raised his level, perhaps much due to the new tyres.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think many of the people 'in the know' inside F1 always new Button was a talented driver. Even back in 2005.


Gil De Ferran: '“It became apparent to me very quickly that Jenson’s skill was at a very high level looking at his data traces. There was never any exaggeration in his throttle, brake or steering, everything was done the precise amount. He would never over do it and come back, It indicated tremendous amount of feel, I think a driver that has the level of feel and sensitivity in his hands and feet that Jenson has, is able to drive at a very high limit without ever making mistakes or overstepping the mark.”

“I remember looking at his data after qualifying (for 2005British GP) and thinking, ‘Jesus, Christ!’ He had basically judged every corner to absolute perfection. That’s something the public doesn’t see; the tiny adjustments he made to find a whole new limit was very impressive to me. It was perfect – there was not one correction too many. It was all done with surgical precision; the throttle, brake and steering were all just perfect

“I can’t tell you how hard it is to go that fast and be smooth. The public likes the guy with the tail out but in my opinion, being on the limit without those moves, demonstrates a higher degree of skill.

On Jenson Button (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/07/on-jenson-buttons-200th-grand-prix/)

[wedge]

It must be something to do with the English language but in my opinion, a Journeyman Driver will always be just that. You can't polish a turd.

Alonso is doing it now in Ferrari, did too when he returned to Renault

Hamilton did it in 2009

Schumi did it for Ferrari in 1996


I think many of the people 'in the know' inside F1 always new Button was a talented driver. Even back in 2005.

2005 San Marino GP Button easily let Schumi past, Alonso held Schumi off for the last 10 laps and ended up winning.

[i_max2k2]

2005 San Marino GP Button easily let Schumi past, Alonso held Schumi off for the last 10 laps and ended up winning.

That was some overtaking move, I wouldnt take it from button, but rather give to Schumy for pulling that off.

[AndyL]

It must be something to do with the English language but in my opinion, a Journeyman Driver will always be just that. You can't polish a turd.

Yes I think this is just some misunderstanding coming from subtle interpretations of the language. I agree the word journeyman implies consistent mediocrity over a career. If a driver shows excellence now that he didn't in the past, then he was more like a diamond in the rough back then.

[Zico]

I think pretty much everyone regarded him as a journeyman back in 2005 for example. But he has raised his level, perhaps much due to the new tyres.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Re- tyres Gary.. that makes a lot of sense. Early in Jensons career when his budget was funded by his dad, financial constraints forced him to adopt his signiture super smooth driving style to make the tyres last as long as possible. The new tyres do seem to reward his driving style over a race distance and also in wet conditions.

[wedge]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Re- tyres Gary.. that makes a lot of sense. Early in Jensons career when his budget was funded by his dad, financial constraints forced him to adopt his signiture super smooth driving style to make the tyres last as long as possible. The new tyres do seem to reward his driving style over a race distance and also in wet conditions.

So was Mansell. He sold his house and lived in the back of a Ford transit when he was coming up through the ranks.

Money was tight and he drove poor equipment. This is where his aggressive style came from. He would run as little wing as possible to make up for lack of straightline speed and man handle the difference in the corners. He carried into F1. Never stopped him being regarded as one of the best drivers of his generation which had tyre wars hence soft compounds.

Take the 1986 Australian GP for instance. The haters say Mansell over drove the car when in fact Goodyear brought the wrong tyres.

Which reminds me. 2005 was supposed to be Jenson's year because of the ban on tyre stops and yet nothing truly special happened to make JB stand out.

[Knock-on]

I think pretty much everyone regarded him as a journeyman back in 2005 for example.

Speak for yourself. I always believed he was one of the very best out there.

[wedge]

Speak for yourself. I always believed he was one of the very best out there.

What about 2008? The Honda was an absolute heap of turd and struggled to polish.

Great in a good car, poor in a poor car. IMHO you're never considered a great unless you have allround ability.

[Knock-on]

What about 2008? The Honda was an absolute heap of turd and struggled to polish.

Great in a good car, poor in a poor car. IMHO you're never considered a great unless you have allround ability.

He has had some shocking cars and stuck with them. Working quietly with the engineers back in Japan or doing his best dragging the sad sack of (beep) round the track. I never claimed he could do miracles in a car that just could not deliver like some people on here seem to do but you've been around here long enough to know I never lost faith and was sometimes a solitary voice on these hallowed boards :D

[jens]

Which reminds me. 2005 was supposed to be Jenson's year because of the ban on tyre stops and yet nothing truly special happened to make JB stand out.

Well, he outscored his team-mate 37:1. I think that is quite a special achievement. :p :

I don't see, why is Button's past so easily dismissed. I would agree that he was struggling in 2007-08 in a bad car, but his 2004-06 seasons were pretty good. I remember Button was among the biggest point-scorers in the second half of 2006 in a car that clearly was not the fastest car in the field. How is that not an achievement? Button was performing well over a full season considering the cars and beating his team-mates. Like Alonso is doing now. Should we dismiss Alonso's skills right now just because he is in a bad car and not winning?

[wedge]

Well, he outscored his team-mate 37:1. I think that is quite a special achievement. :p :

I don't see, why is Button's past so easily dismissed. I would agree that he was struggling in 2007-08 in a bad car, but his 2004-06 seasons were pretty good. I remember Button was among the biggest point-scorers in the second half of 2006 in a car that clearly was not the fastest car in the field. How is that not an achievement? Button was performing well over a full season considering the cars and beating his team-mates. Like Alonso is doing now. Should we dismiss Alonso's skills right now just because he is in a bad car and not winning?

Taku as team mate then its hardly surprising.

[Knock-on]

Taku as team mate then its hardly surprising.

:yawn: Excuses, excuses :D

[BDunnell]

:laugh: Too right :up:

I have had many a discussion with ioan on this in the past but as per usual, he ignores all the evidence and sticks to his baseless opinion regardless.

Until something happens, and he undergoes another mysterious conversion, whereby we are all expected to forget the opinion he held so passionately but hours before.

[steveaki13]

I think many of the people 'in the know' inside F1 always new Button was a talented driver. Even back in 2005.



I think the first signs we're back in 2003 and then 2004.

He drove well for Williams in 2000, and was poor in an awful 2001 Benetton and solid again in the 2002 Renault.

But then 2003, I think it was in Austria he finished 4th and in with the top teams in his BAR and then he lead calmly in USA and Japan that season.

Then of course 2004 he scored 10 odd podiums and at times was the only man remotely close to Ferrari's (i.e Imola and Monza 2004) It was clear to me he was better than I originally thought.

But its true what people said he struggled in bad cars.

However I don't think anyone thought he would be one of the top F1 drivers. Even with his 6 wins in 2009 and a world championship people questioned him, however we have to admit he has been class and been equal to anyone and is in the frame to win another Championship should things go his way.

[Zico]

So was Mansell. He sold his house and lived in the back of a Ford transit when he was coming up through the ranks.

Money was tight and he drove poor equipment. This is where his aggressive style came from. He would run as little wing as possible to make up for lack of straightline speed and man handle the difference in the corners. He carried into F1. Never stopped him being regarded as one of the best drivers of his generation which had tyre wars hence soft compounds.

Take the 1986 Australian GP for instance. The haters say Mansell over drove the car when in fact Goodyear brought the wrong tyres.

Which reminds me. 2005 was supposed to be Jenson's year because of the ban on tyre stops and yet nothing truly special happened to make JB stand out.


As Jens points out.. although he didn't really stand out in the grand scale of things he did in terms of his team mate, who despite not being highly regarded is still the closest meaningful comparison one can make.

Fair point regarding Mansell, he made his driving style which went in the opposite direction (to Jensons) work for him then... but would his agressive style work as well for him now?
I just look at Lewis who is able to push a car to the max and will get a far higher qualifying percentage record over the season yet the slower (over one lap) but smoother Button still seems to be fairing better... if it isn't the tyres, what is it?
I suppose we could all jumping the gun on this, maybe Lewis was just unlucky in Oz and will bounce back and consistantly outpoint him this year.. no one knows but It looks like its going to be a very close and interesting season especially with the Bulls and McLaren so close at this stage. :)

[jens]

--
However I don't think anyone thought he would be one of the top F1 drivers.


Good post in general. :)

But I can mention that actually around 2006 I thought Button was a top driver, but in the next two years he ruined that reputation. To be honest, at that time I thought the same about Heidfeld too, but unlike Button he never got such career-break.

[wedge]

:yawn: Excuses, excuses :D


But I can mention that actually around 2006 I thought Button was a top driver, but in the next two years he ruined that reputation. To be honest, at that time I thought the same about Heidfeld too, but unlike Button he never got such career-break.

Indeed he was a good driver, but just how good? That's what divided opinion because he certainly wasn't exceptional.

Barrichello was a better quality driver to Sato. The difference was minimal but the general pattern was that Rubens was better when the car was poor.

[Tazio]

Good post in general. :)

But I can mention that actually around 2006 I thought Button was a top driver, but in the next two years he ruined that reputation. To be honest, at that time I thought the same about Heidfeld too, but unlike Button he never got such career-break.

+1

[Garry Walker]

Speak for yourself. I always believed he was one of the very best out there.

Based on his performances before Brawn GP, he was nothing special. Nowhere near Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher league.

[wedge]

Thats not to say he hasn't developed into a very good driver capable of matching the drivers you mention though is it?

Here's there or thereabouts.

I thought last year's Japanese GP was his best win. It was hard to name a winner mid-race, just as Hamilton accomplished similar feats in that year's Chinese & German GPs and 2010 Canada.

JB needs to be consistent at driving at the highest level if he wants to be considered a great, IMHO.

[F1boat]

JB needs to be consistent at driving at the highest level if he wants to be considered a great, IMHO.

So does his teammate...

[aryan]

To be honest, at that time I thought the same about Heidfeld too, but unlike Button he never got such career-break.

I still think Heidfeld was, in his day, one of the best and fastest drivers in F1. His record against his team mates is nearly impeccable. In 2001 he beat Kimi in Sauber. The next year he beat Filipe Massa in the same car. In 2005 he beat Mark Webber in Williams. Then he beat Jacques Villeneuve in 2005 and 2006. And what most people forget is that he beat the highly regarded Robert Kubica 2 out of the 3 seasons they were teammates. Along the way, he also beat a great many number of journeymen.

Once Heifeld lost his permanent seat in F1 though, he lost a certain amount of confidence, and he was never quite the same as a substitute driver. But in the right environment, I still think Heidfeld could have been a multiple GP winner. He just never had the right environment around him, and he never made a team 'his own'.

We think of F1 and motor racing in general as an individual sport, but the reality is that those around a driver, managing them, advising them, etc. have a lot to do with their success or failures. You look at how Button improved after he changes his manager after the whole BAR-Williams contract saga, and how he realised that he had been getting the wrong advice from his manager and that had affected his racing. Who knows, in another universe, with different people around him, Heidfeld's story could have turned out very differently.

[EuroTroll]

I still think Heidfeld was, in his day, one of the best and fastest drivers in F1. His record against his team mates is nearly impeccable. In 2001 he beat Kimi in Sauber. The next year he beat Filipe Massa in the same car.

Let's not forget that Kimi and Massa were rookies though, when they partnered Heidfeld at Sauber. Nick already had one or two seasons under his belt.

I know many people rated (and rate) him highly, but I have to say I never saw it... He was solid, but never showed any sign of greatness IMO.

[wedge]

So does his teammate...

IMO Hamilton is a great driver. More naturally gifted than Button because he is better at consistently extracting the maximum from a car. Has JB ever polished a turd as LH did in 2009?

Consistent results is a different matter.

[F1boat]

IMO Hamilton is a great driver. More naturally gifted than Button because he is better at consistently extracting the maximum from a car. Has JB ever polished a turd as LH did in 2009?

Consistent results is a different matter.

He is an exciting driver, but I wouldn't call him a great driver. Too many crashes and problems. He can become a great, however, with a few more championships.

[wedge]

Too many crashes and problems.

So was Senna.

Granted, last year looked like LH was heading towards the direction of Wasted Talent.

[F1boat]

So was Senna.


I never said that Bruno is a great driver ;)

All its that this totally depends on candidate's sheer luck and his zeal. Sometimes the ever best person gets beated by other contestant and sometimes we see the racer topping the charts who never has ranked even in top 10. So only predictions can be made. According to me there are few ones only to whom I can point out. Among them are Schumacher, Alonso, Webber, Trulli, Button, Massa and Dovizioso.