Alguersuari rejected a drive because he thought his 2012 seat was safe

[N4D13]

Jaime Alguersuari says he rejected a 2012 drive thinking his Toro Rosso seat was safe - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97359)

If this is true - and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't -, it doesn't say anything good at all about Red Bull driver management. But then again, it's nothing we didn't know already, is it?

[SGWilko]

Jaime Alguersuari says he rejected a 2012 drive thinking his Toro Rosso seat was safe - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97359)

If this is true - and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't -, it doesn't say anything good at all about Red Bull driver management. But then again, it's nothing we didn't know already, is it?

Verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.......

[The Black Knight]

Verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.......

Yup, F1 is a tough business. Alguesuari should have known better than to take them at their word without them confirming it in ink.

[Dave B]

Never assume. I'm sure there's a hackneyed and overused saying about that.

[F1boat]

If true, Red Bull were unfair with Jaime, but my sympathy for him disappears after his rude remarks about Williams and HRT. What an arrogant prick.

[wedge]

Bloody naive but then I do have sympathy. Red Bull have treated him like s**t considering that The Helmet thinks Buemi is more worthy of RBR reserve driver.

[CNR]

all i can say is that he was lucky to be there at all considering the way that they dropped hartley

[Koz]

If true, Red Bull were unfair with Jaime, but my sympathy for him disappears after his rude remarks about Williams and HRT. What an arrogant prick.

What rude comments?
That Williams want pay drivers?
Or that a drive for HRT would be the end of his career?
Both comments seem fairly accurate...

[DexDexter]

If true, Red Bull were unfair with Jaime, but my sympathy for him disappears after his rude remarks about Williams and HRT. What an arrogant prick.

Rude remarks, I don't get this at all.

[The Black Knight]

If true, Red Bull were unfair with Jaime, but my sympathy for him disappears after his rude remarks about Williams and HRT. What an arrogant prick.

I don't really get that to be honest? He seemed pretty honest in his opinion and I'd agree with it.

[F1boat]

For me he sounded bitter and it was not necessary to comment on Williams and HRT. Beggars can't be choosers IMO.

[Malbec]

Verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.......

Not true.

Had Alguersuari pursued his contract with whatever team wanted to sign him then found out that STR had indeed exercised their option on 2012 he would have been utterly screwed in the same way Jenson Button was with Williams and BAR. He would have been liable to paying one party substantial compensation.

It is actually quite common for teams to agree to a verbal contract then only sign weeks or months after. Alguersuari's father has been involved in motorsports for donkeys years, the family know exactly how the business works.

[SGWilko]

Not true.

Had Alguersuari pursued his contract with whatever team wanted to sign him then found out that STR had indeed exercised their option on 2012 he would have been utterly screwed in the same way Jenson Button was with Williams and BAR. He would have been liable to paying one party substantial compensation.

It is actually quite common for teams to agree to a verbal contract then only sign weeks or months after.

When he had this other 'good offer', he should have asked some questions of his team, no?

If, then, they tell him his option will be taken up, and they sign on the dotted line, then he'd have a solid legal case right now.

A cursory - "oh, you'll be alright Jack, your position is safe" without committing it to writing isn't particularly inspiring.

[Malbec]

When he had this other 'good offer', he should have asked some questions of his team, no?

But thats exactly what he did isn't it?

He had an offer from another team, STR told him you're staying with us so he turned down the offer.

These guys aren't employees on company contracts. After the two parties agree to a contract they spend months negotiating details through lawyers and accountants. It is not as simple as merely shaking hands then putting pen to paper.

You don't see this aspect when things go right. Its only when things go wrong that this gap between agreeing to a contract then actually signing one comes up.

[The Black Knight]

But thats exactly what he did isn't it?

He had an offer from another team, STR told him you're staying with us so he turned down the offer.

These guys aren't employees on company contracts. After the two parties agree to a contract they spend months negotiating details through lawyers and accountants. It is not as simple as merely shaking hands then putting pen to paper.

You don't see this aspect when things go right. Its only when things go wrong that this gap between agreeing to a contract then actually signing one comes up.

He shouldn't have turned down the offer though. He should have kept all options on the table until he had signed the dotted line.

[Malbec]

He shouldn't have turned down the offer though. He should have kept all options on the table until he had signed the dotted line.

How?

Which team would leave an offer on the table for months just for Alguersuari until he had confirmation from STR that he wasn't driving for them (which IIRC was late Nov/early Dec)?

Remember the drivers market is a buyers market at the moment. There are plenty of young quick drivers out there with a bit of cash. Noone had the option of turning down contracts or stalling on them on the off chance something better would arrive.

All of these 'he should have kept options open/verbal agreements are worth nothing' comments are as close to reality as the claim that people are only unemployed because they haven't looked hard enough for a job.

[SGWilko]

How?

Which team would leave an offer on the table for months just for Alguersuari until he had confirmation from STR that he wasn't driving for them (which IIRC was late Nov/early Dec)?

Remember the drivers market is a buyers market at the moment. There are plenty of young quick drivers out there with a bit of cash. Noone had the option of turning down contracts or stalling on them on the off chance something better would arrive.

All of these 'he should have kept options open/verbal agreements are worth nothing' comments are as close to reality as the claim that people are only unemployed because they haven't looked hard enough for a job.

He clearly had nothing in writing at STR. A competitor sniffing about would have been an ideal bargaining tool, and if they were serious would have dotted and crossed the option.......

[Malbec]

He clearly had nothing in writing at STR. A competitor sniffing about would have been an ideal bargaining tool, and if they were serious would have dotted and crossed the option.......

He had a 2011 contract for certain and an option for the team to retain him for 2012. It was up to the team to decide whether to exercise that option. If the team had fulfilled its criteria for exercising that option then Alguersuari would have had no say in the matter. Thats how options work.

The problem here needless to say is that STR told their drivers extremely late in the day that they would not be exercising their options for 2012. The drivers would have been utterly helpless in the face of that. As for signing, all of this would have been pre-agreed in the contract they had signed for 2011.

[The Black Knight]

He had a 2011 contract for certain and an option for the team to retain him for 2012. It was up to the team to decide whether to exercise that option. If the team had fulfilled its criteria for exercising that option then Alguersuari would have had no say in the matter. Thats how options work.

The problem here needless to say is that STR told their drivers extremely late in the day that they would not be exercising their options for 2012. The drivers would have been utterly helpless in the face of that. As for signing, all of this would have been pre-agreed in the contract they had signed for 2011.

Alguesuary said he had an offer from another team. We don't know if that offer was verbal or in writing, but I'm imagining it was more than likely verbal. By that thought, he should have continued to negotiate with that team about the possibility of a drive until such time as he was certain about STR. Refusing point blank seems a bit nonsensical to me when nothing was confirmed at STR.

[Garry Walker]

So what offer could that have been?
It was not Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren or Mercedes.
I am pretty sure it was not Lotus either.
Force India? No way.
Sauber? Again, no.

So what really good offer is he talking about?

I think mr.JA is talking, in fact, BS.

[The Black Knight]

So what offer could that have been?
It was not Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren or Mercedes.
I am pretty sure it was not Lotus either.
Force India? No way.
Sauber? Again, no.

So what really good offer is he talking about?

I think mr.JA is talking, in fact, BS.

Could have been Caterham. They are set to join the midfield pack this year so if he were to replace Trulli I wouldn't have been too surprised and it wouldn't present a huge step backwards in his career either.

[SGWilko]

I think mr.JA is talking, in fact, BS.

Otherwise known as 'poetic license' ;)

[SGWilko]

Could have been Caterham. They are set to join the midfield pack this year so if he were to replace Trulli I wouldn't have been too surprised.

Caterham wont replace Trulli, they have a wine cellar to fill.........

[Garry Walker]

Could have been Caterham. They are set to join the midfield pack this year so if he were to replace Trulli I wouldn't have been too surprised and it wouldn't present a huge step backwards in his career either.

TBH, I doubt that. Caterham would demand money from the driver coming in to replace Trulli and JA would not have had that and seemingly he considers himself above that.

[Malbec]

Refusing point blank seems a bit nonsensical to me when nothing was confirmed at STR.

See my post 18 on this thread about how options work. Once the team has fulfilled its obligations re: option the driver has no choice in the matter. If STR told him verbally we will retain you the driver has to assume they will. There is nothing to sign. The signing/written confirmation would have been done 2 years before.

Alguersuari claims he was given verbal confirmation at Brazil that he would be retained. Presumably he got the offer from another team around that time. He was only told in mid-December that he would be dropped because the team would not be taking up its option. This leaves about 2 months gap.

Now tell me, given the driver market at the time how he would have stalled the offer from another team for 2 months, especially given the large number of drivers with cash floating around? You say he should have, I don't disagree but what you keep omitting is HOW?

In the event by mid-December there were only 2 drives available. Williams and HRT, both requiring large amounts of sponsorship that no driver could have rustled up in mere weeks.

BTW I suspect the team that offered him the place was Lotus with two places available before the season ended.

[SGWilko]

agree to a verbal contract then only sign weeks or months after.

No stalling required, just enter negotiations so you have more than one option open to you......

[CNR]

you must remember that Caterham has a redbull link (Red Bull gear box) and they tried to place daniel ricciardo there so if there was an opening there i think redbull would have just moved Alguersuari there

[The Black Knight]

See my post 18 on this thread about how options work. Once the team has fulfilled its obligations re: option the driver has no choice in the matter. If STR told him verbally we will retain you the driver has to assume they will. There is nothing to sign. The signing/written confirmation would have been done 2 years before.

Alguersuari claims he was given verbal confirmation at Brazil that he would be retained. Presumably he got the offer from another team around that time. He was only told in mid-December that he would be dropped because the team would not be taking up its option. This leaves about 2 months gap.

Now tell me, given the driver market at the time how he would have stalled the offer from another team for 2 months, especially given the large number of drivers with cash floating around? You say he should have, I don't disagree but what you keep omitting is HOW?

In the event by mid-December there were only 2 drives available. Williams and HRT, both requiring large amounts of sponsorship that no driver could have rustled up in mere weeks.

BTW I suspect the team that offered him the place was Lotus with two places available before the season ended.

I agree with your points but he should still have entered negotiations even if they would have fallen through. If memory serves me, STR never officially confirmed to the world that he and Buemi were going to be retained for the season. With this in mind I would always be very iffy about my position as a driver as the team can drop you any minute. Also, though I have never been privvy to a drivers contract, it seems to me unlikley that an option wouldn't require some signing of another dotted line by the team to confirm it. It appears STR never did this and since we all know verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on, then an option is not really taken up until it is confirmed in writing, imo.

[Malbec]

I agree with your points but he should still have entered negotiations even if they would have fallen through.

Entered negotiations with who? STR?

If you're referring to the other team then the job offer would have been the result of negotiations. When you receive a job offer the terms are supplied and you either accept or reject it. Negotiating further without accepting is not possible. Stalling isn't really possible either given the drivers market at the time.

Further negotiations are really about sorting out the small print and is done by lawyers and accountants. Of course if these throw up something either party isn't happy with then you negotiate further before committing a signature.

That is my understanding of how high value individual job negotiations work. I'm not sure where what you say fits into that picture.


If memory serves me, STR never officially confirmed to the world that he and Buemi were going to be retained for the season. With this in mind I would always be very iffy about my position as a driver as the team can drop you any minute.

Sure you would, but I don't think you realise how tightly your hands would be tied at this point since Jaime claims he was given verbal confirmation STR would take up its option for 2012. STR can then do so at any time formally. What could Jaime do? He had a job offer from another team and had been told by his own team that they would keep him for 2012. Think about the possible penalties involved. If he had then signed up with the other team (negotiating further not being an option once the job has been offered) he could have easily found himself contracted to two teams for 2012 if STR then formally confirmed its option. He would have been taken to the cleaners by one or both teams and liable to pay substantial compensation.

Look at Liuzzi both for 2011 and 2012. For 2011 he had a contract with FI which the team unilaterally tore up. For 2012 he had a contract with HRT which again the team unilaterally tore up. I'm sure he received some compensation from both teams but ultimately this is a buyers market and teams are pretty free to do what they will with their drivers except perhaps the big names at the top. The problem with your argument is that it assumes the drivers have the power over the teams when this is clearly not the case for guys like Jaime.

But going back to my previous post, you've still not addressed exactly what Jaime could have done to stall negotiations with the 'other team' when there plenty of other drivers floating around gunning for that drive.

[The Black Knight]

Entered negotiations with who? STR?
If you're referring to the other team then the job offer would have been the result of negotiations. When you receive a job offer the terms are supplied and you either accept or reject it. Negotiating further without accepting is not possible. Stalling isn't really possible either given the drivers market at the time.
Further negotiations are really about sorting out the small print and is done by lawyers and accountants. Of course if these throw up something either party isn't happy with then you negotiate further before committing a signature.
That is my understanding of how high value individual job negotiations work. I'm not sure where what you say fits into that picture.

Your understanding is different to my my own experience in negotiating jobs. I have had plenty of job offers on the table to me (not F1 drive offers obviously) for which I have negotiated. That is the way it works. An offer is just that, an offer. It's not a ready made contract. The contract details need to be worked out after. This can take a while. If time runs out and STR haven't officially confirmed in the meanwhile then so be it, the negotiations have fallen through but at least you've done everything you can to get a drive. The way STR handled it was completely inappropriate but you never do yourself any favours by refusing an offer straight away.


Sure you would, but I don't think you realise how tightly your hands would be tied at this point since Jaime claims he was given verbal confirmation STR would take up its option for 2012. STR can then do so at any time formally. What could Jaime do? He had a job offer from another team and had been told by his own team that they would keep him for 2012. Think about the possible penalties involved. If he had then signed up with the other team (negotiating further not being an option once the job has been offered) he could have easily found himself contracted to two teams for 2012 if STR then formally confirmed its option. He would have been taken to the cleaners by one or both teams and liable to pay substantial compensation.
Look at Liuzzi both for 2011 and 2012. For 2011 he had a contract with FI which the team unilaterally tore up. For 2012 he had a contract with HRT which again the team unilaterally tore up. I'm sure he received some compensation from both teams but ultimately this is a buyers market and teams are pretty free to do what they will with their drivers except perhaps the big names at the top. The problem with your argument is that it assumes the drivers have the power over the teams when this is clearly not the case for guys like Jaime.
But going back to my previous post, you've still not addressed exactly what Jaime could have done to stall negotiations with the 'other team' when there plenty of other drivers floating around gunning for that drive.

In all probability there was very little he could have done to avoid being without a drive but without written confirmation from STR he should not have refused any offer on the table, in my opinion, but in principle started negotiations given that his position was uncertain. This is what I would have done in his position. As I said above, if the negotiations then fell through so be it, but at least you've exhausted all your options to the best of your ability.

I understand why he handled it the way he did but I imagine if he is ever in the same position again he won't be refusing another offer just a quickly or at least if he does refuse one he might say "No, that's not enough money" but I might be willing to accept a different offer etc. My pint is there were plenty of options available other than point blank refusal at the time.