Sutil will stand trial in a German court later this month

[BDunnell]

I was wondering where were you hiding all this time, then you come up with this BS bomb! :laugh:

As opposed to your reasoned contributions to the thread, ioan?

Again, I ask you: on what is your view based — an in-depth examination of the footage that the rest of us haven't seen, your personal recollection of the events of that night, or the same media coverage as we've all seen on which you have placed your own over-imaginative spin?

[Bagwan]

Thank you Sir.
I've been surfing through some more articles and they are largely based on the same AP account with the damning evidence being:
Lux must be a real tool because he has been quoted as saying in testimony that the reason he didn't accept Sutils apology was that Sutil didn't come to Luxemburg and apologies in person. I would think that upon getting the offer of tons of money, if the real reason for following through with the trial was that he wanted a personal apology, I doubt that AS would have refused, plus his charities would make good use of the funds. He probably could have gotten the personal apology and some big bucks for his charities. I understand why Hamilton didn't want to attend, because this Lux character sounds like he might get a kick out of character assassination. I actually feel badly for Hamilton because he is going to get his dick dragged through the dirt in the appeal over what sounds like something that he had no hand in. If the Sutils wanted him there that badly they should have subpoenaed him. If Hamilton (actually his Lawyers) managed to get permission not to attend, when it came time for the trial Sutil could have asked for, and gotten a continuance.
Stick a fork in me; I'm done speculating about this barbeque! :wave:

Nice reasoning Traz man .
The charities now get $200k instead of tens of millions .
You must be right about Lux being a tool .
I hadn't really thought too much about his character with all that blood in the way .
There was a quote earlier somewhere in the thread about him reserving the right to pursue others involved .

That would fit with the idea of pressure for Lewis to stay out of it .
But , why would Hamilton fear Lux , if he had nothing to do with it ?
How could he pressure Lewis ?


You know what Mr. ?
This all fits rather nicely .
Originally , we heard Lewis would attend .
Then , we heard his lawyers got him excused .

The Sutils certainly sounded surprised , and hurt .
That fits with Lewis agreeing to help , and then getting advice from his team to duck out .

That fits with how lawyers talk to lawyers out of court , assuring witnesses are excused .
That fits with the railroad account that Adam Cooper gave of the trial disregarding CCTV footage that seemed to rather obviously to him to paint a different light on the incident .


Sutil describes Lux as someone who would only be happy if Adrian was completely destroyed .
He offered tens of millions , ended up paying out only $200k , but lost his job and his reputation .
Money was not the object .
I understand why , if this was the reason , Lewis would not want to testify , as he could become the next object of obsession for one so vindictive as Lux .
If it was the reason , though , I would also understand the Sutil's point of view .

[ArrowsFA1]

Like a runaway train, there's no stopping Bagwan.

[SGWilko]

Nice reasoning Traz man .
The charities now get $200k instead of tens of millions .
You must be right about Lux being a tool .
I hadn't really thought too much about his character with all that blood in the way .
There was a quote earlier somewhere in the thread about him reserving the right to pursue others involved .

That would fit with the idea of pressure for Lewis to stay out of it .
But , why would Hamilton fear Lux , if he had nothing to do with it ?
How could he pressure Lewis ?


You know what Mr. ?
This all fits rather nicely .
Originally , we heard Lewis would attend .
Then , we heard his lawyers got him excused .

The Sutils certainly sounded surprised , and hurt .
That fits with Lewis agreeing to help , and then getting advice from his team to duck out .

That fits with how lawyers talk to lawyers out of court , assuring witnesses are excused .
That fits with the railroad account that Adam Cooper gave of the trial disregarding CCTV footage that seemed to rather obviously to him to paint a different light on the incident .


Sutil describes Lux as someone who would only be happy if Adrian was completely destroyed .
He offered tens of millions , ended up paying out only $200k , but lost his job and his reputation .
Money was not the object .
I understand why , if this was the reason , Lewis would not want to testify , as he could become the next object of obsession for one so vindictive as Lux .
If it was the reason , though , I would also understand the Sutil's point of view .

Why, I mean, seriously WHY, if you are sure you have a good case, would you offer tens of millions to settle out of court? That is bizarre at best.

The Hamilton thing, as far as I read it, is a smokescreen, put out there by the 'innocent' Sutils to deflect attention and to try and salvage a career that is going down the pan quicker than a Richard III.

If you were told that, the case could be settled by a personal face to face apology, what would you do. Options are;

Fork out tens of millions in the hope of an out of court settlement

or

Go and apologise?

Tough one that, init.....

Maybe Adrian has something to hide that Lux knows about, and this is what sparked the altercation in the first place. Who knows. It certainly is not, Prima Facie, plain and simple.

[SGWilko]

Like a runaway train, there's no stopping Bagwan.

Don't stop him now, he's having such a good time - he's having a ball........ ;)

[Knock-on]

Don't stop him now, he's having such a good time - he's having a ball........ ;)

My German Shepherd has this thick bit of rope tied to a tree that he loves grabbing in his mouth and furiously tugging on. Sometimes I'm sure he's going to rip his teeth out or break his neck because of the ferocity he goes at it. He has no reason to believe he's ever going to win this tug of war but against all the evidence, refuses to accept facts and keeps forlornly going at it with all the vigour he can manage.

And they say German Shepherds are intelligent? He has the same brains as some on here. I feel cheated :)

[CNR]

1 point it was 3 weeks before the first report to make any paper so no one can know for sure what did happen

it looks like it may have been in the room of the last post i made

Leaked: F1 driver Adrian Sutil was in bar fight at M1NT following Shanghai GP - Shanghaiist (http://shanghaiist.com/2011/05/12/f1_driver_adrian_sutil_in_bar_fight.php)

johnnychangwalkerhttp://mediacdn.disqus.com/1329444752/images/themes/narcissus/moderator.png9 months ago (http://shanghaiist.com/2011/05/12/f1_driver_adrian_sutil_in_bar_fight.php#comment-203658950)http://shanghaiist.com/2011/05/12/f1_driver_adrian_sutil_in_bar_fight.php#
... there are no private rooms in M1NT, only VIP upstairs where they certainly would not be. fail story.

[Bagwan]

Why, I mean, seriously WHY, if you are sure you have a good case, would you offer tens of millions to settle out of court? That is bizarre at best.

The Hamilton thing, as far as I read it, is a smokescreen, put out there by the 'innocent' Sutils to deflect attention and to try and salvage a career that is going down the pan quicker than a Richard III.

If you were told that, the case could be settled by a personal face to face apology, what would you do. Options are;

Fork out tens of millions in the hope of an out of court settlement

or

Go and apologise?

Tough one that, init.....

Maybe Adrian has something to hide that Lux knows about, and this is what sparked the altercation in the first place. Who knows. It certainly is not, Prima Facie, plain and simple.

Adrian has never denied having caused injury to Lux .
He apparently tried to pay recompence to Lux before the trial , with the money said to be going to charity .

Attempts were made to apologise over the phone , but the calls were not answered , in the literal sense .

Hard to know one isn't making a good enough effort if one isn't told this is the case .


His line of defence is that it was an accident , not that he didn't do it .
An out of court settlement in a case such as this is not bizarre at all , but rather , quite commonplace .


If Lux was not taking his calls , it would also be rather hard to arrange any kind of meeting in which to apologise , wouldn't it ?

[SGWilko]

Adrian has never denied having caused injury to Lux .
He apparently tried to pay recompence to Lux before the trial , with the money said to be going to charity .

Attempts were made to apologise over the phone , but the calls were not answered , in the literal sense .

Hard to know one isn't making a good enough effort if one isn't told this is the case .


His line of defence is that it was an accident , not that he didn't do it .
An out of court settlement in a case such as this is not bizarre at all , but rather , quite commonplace .


If Lux was not taking his calls , it would also be rather hard to arrange any kind of meeting in which to apologise , wouldn't it ?

Lux then was being deliberately evasive? To what aim. Vindictiveness - dragging it through the courts - seems to be his aim. Gives a hint of the character then, and quite understandable then that Hamilton's management have advised he leave well alone.

[Bagwan]

Lux then was being deliberately evasive? To what aim. Vindictiveness - dragging it through the courts - seems to be his aim. Gives a hint of the character then, and quite understandable then that Hamilton's management have advised he leave well alone.
Here's an exerpt from a Speed tv article :
"udge Christiane Thiemann read out a mail from Sutil to Lux dated last May, in which the driver offered to support Lux's African charity project.

Sutil said Lux's counter-offers for an out-of-court settlement were "comical", for a "very, very high amount" of money and involving voluntarily sitting out several races.

"He wanted to destroy me, to make sure I'm in jail for years," said Sutil.

"I did everything to try to settle this." "



Seems pretty plausable , doesn't it Wilko(I got it right this time ...your name I mean) ?

So , you support this area of speculation then ?
Careful , you could get called a "Gambini" , supporting a "German shepherd" like me .

[ioan]

Adrian has never denied having caused injury to Lux .
He apparently tried to pay recompence to Lux before the trial , with the money said to be going to charity .

Attempts were made to apologise over the phone , but the calls were not answered , in the literal sense .

Hard to know one isn't making a good enough effort if one isn't told this is the case .


His line of defence is that it was an accident , not that he didn't do it .
An out of court settlement in a case such as this is not bizarre at all , but rather , quite commonplace .


If Lux was not taking his calls , it would also be rather hard to arrange any kind of meeting in which to apologise , wouldn't it ?

Lux wanted to make this a big headline story, that's all it is to it.
Let's hope that Sutil's appeal will clear things up.

[ioan]

Here's an exerpt from a Speed tv article :
"udge Christiane Thiemann read out a mail from Sutil to Lux dated last May, in which the driver offered to support Lux's African charity project.

Sutil said Lux's counter-offers for an out-of-court settlement were "comical", for a "very, very high amount" of money and involving voluntarily sitting out several races.

"He wanted to destroy me, to make sure I'm in jail for years," said Sutil.

"I did everything to try to settle this." "



Seems pretty plausable , doesn't it Wilko(I got it right this time ...your name I mean) ?

So , you support this area of speculation then ?
Careful , you could get called a "Gambini" , supporting a "German shepherd" like me .

:up:

Funny how people around here slate an F1 driver who, in the worst case, made a mistake while supporting a character like Lux. Whatever happened to common sense?!

[ioan]

Lux then was being deliberately evasive? To what aim. Vindictiveness - dragging it through the courts - seems to be his aim. Gives a hint of the character then, and quite understandable then that Hamilton's management have advised he leave well alone.

Making headlines is what Lux wanted, unless he is really a vindictive sob. Anyway not someone you would like to have to do with.

[ioan]

As opposed to your reasoned contributions to the thread, ioan?

Again, I ask you: on what is your view based — an in-depth examination of the footage that the rest of us haven't seen, your personal recollection of the events of that night, or the same media coverage as we've all seen on which you have placed your own over-imaginative spin?

Not really worth an answer.

[BDunnell]

Not really worth an answer.

Why? It is an entirely genuine question. You seem to be suggesting a level of knowledge on the matter that superior to almost everyone else's here. Why don't you just say what this knowledge is based on?

[SGWilko]

Here's an exerpt from a Speed tv article :
"udge Christiane Thiemann read out a mail from Sutil to Lux dated last May, in which the driver offered to support Lux's African charity project.

Sutil said Lux's counter-offers for an out-of-court settlement were "comical", for a "very, very high amount" of money and involving voluntarily sitting out several races.

"He wanted to destroy me, to make sure I'm in jail for years," said Sutil.

"I did everything to try to settle this." "



Seems pretty plausable , doesn't it Wilko(I got it right this time ...your name I mean) ?

So , you support this area of speculation then ?
Careful , you could get called a "Gambini" , supporting a "German shepherd" like me .

It is the Hamilton deliberately misleading the court bit I take issue with in your earlier comments Baggy. (Please chastise me if you prefer not the Baggy moniker)

And yes - a 10/10 for you sir on the Wilko front. :)

[Bagwan]

It is the Hamilton deliberately misleading the court bit I take issue with in your earlier comments Baggy. (Please chastise me if you prefer not the Baggy moniker)

And yes - a 10/10 for you sir on the Wilko front. :)

Ah , come on .
Admit it .
I caught you agreeing with me there .

Hey , everybody !
Wilko agreed with some of my speculation !

Just make sure you use the three letters "bag" in whatever you call me , so I know it's me you're calling .

Knocky is much too cryptic when he's alluding to my "german shepherd"ness .

[CNR]

(i don't want to bag you) but i too would like to know the truth and nothing but the truth

[Tazio]

May I suggest that you consult the oracle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x-nQ-vPw5k ;)

[Bagwan]

I just noticed something that maybe somebody could clear up for me .

Now , it's not surprising that Adrian would appeal .
But , is the lodging of the appeal from the presecution side just a normal matter of course ?

They asked for $300k and 21 months the first time , and got $200k and 18 months .
If they are appealing , are they asking for the original sentence for which they applied ?

If so , they have 3 months , and $100k to gain from this .

Is $100k going to cover the legal fees here ?


I would have thought that , with the appeal being lodged from Sutil's side , it would have been one of the spoils of victory to get the legal fees paid for by the appealing side . With a prosecution appeal lodged as well , it seems not to be the case .

Anybody out there who might clear this up ?

[Tazio]

I just noticed something that maybe somebody could clear up for me .

Now , it's not surprising that Adrian would appeal .
But , is the lodging of the appeal from the presecution side just a normal matter of course ?

They asked for $300k and 21 months the first time , and got $200k and 18 months .
If they are appealing , are they asking for the original sentence for which they applied ?

If so , they have 3 months , and $100k to gain from this .

Is $100k going to cover the legal fees here ?


I would have thought that , with the appeal being lodged from Sutil's side , it would have been one of the spoils of victory to get the legal fees paid for by the appealing side . With a prosecution appeal lodged as well , it seems not to be the case .

Anybody out there who might clear this up ?
Don't know if lux is going for the balance of the original complaint only. Remember he has reserved the right to charge other parties than just Sutil. It is really just legal posturing, but he implies that someone else may be complicit originally, and this verdict does not preclude, that any number of people from Hamilton’s bodyguard to the Restuarant where they ate. who knows who will be on his hit list. We have to wait for the court case. It is possible he will go for legal fees, but that usually only happen in civil matters. I don't think Sutil was ordered to pay Luxs' legal fees with the original verdict, and the verdict is what is being appealed by Lux, and Sutil.
Lux will have to file a separate complaint if others are to reveal a likelihood of complicity.
I just hope “Stupil” doesn’t get out-lawyered again as bad as last time. :s mokin:

[Bagwan]

Lux reserving the right to take action against others besides Sutil sounds a bit more than ominous , and makes one wonder if there was any of this thought in Lewis's decision process .
One could imagine that Lewis , having been sat beside Adrian when the brou-ha-ha began , might feel he is first in line for a suit .

But , if the CCTV footage shows Lewis to not have been involved , what would be the issue with attending ?

And , isn't this getting pretty close to blackmail ?


The aspect of the appeal dealing with the sentence , itself , is based upon the fact it didn't jive with the prosecution's original ask , isn't it ?
Unless further evidence became available , that radically changed the game , came into view , they would merely be asking for the original sentence requested , wouldn't they ?


I read one rumour that had a bimbo in the Lux party spilling a drink on Sutil setting the whole thing in motion .
I would guess drivers have better "pull" than team owners , and she was not up to snuff for the young Sutil , with him uttering something off-colour , as his his suit soaked up the drink like Shannon soaks Gene .

[SGWilko]

what would be the issue with attending ?

There is NO issue with attending. Where has this 'attending issue' sprung from.

Lewis was not available due to previously arranged commitments. You know, the stuff F1 drivers get bogged down with - car launches and such like.

His manager, lawyer whoever, contacted the court to this effect. As the trial still continued as planned, Lewis's pre-arranged plans not having magically disintegrated in a 'piff paff puff' moment, was still unavailable.

Now, what is honestly so hard to grasp about that?

[SGWilko]

I read one rumour

That's it - you've cracked it - it must be true.......

[Tazio]

That's it - you've cracked it - it must be true.......I heard a rumor that this was all a bad dream concocted by Bernie using hypnotism, to create mass F-1 hysteria, I mean attention.

[Bagwan]

Which came first , the date announced for the launch , or the date announced for the trial ?

Just wondering , as it would point to McLaren helping give him reason to not attend if it set the launch after the trial date was set .
I have no idea what that would mean for them .

If the launch date was set before the trial date , then one must wonder why they couldn't move the launch up or back a day or two , especially as the monday was for filming only for Lewis .



By the way , the rumour about the bimbo is just that , a rumour .

It might fit though .

[Tazio]

I said it before and I'll say it again. If Sutil's defense had 1/2 of a brain they would have had Hamilton formally served with a subpoena for the first case. Then he would either have to attend, or his representation could try to arrange to have the trial date moved. I think that may not be very easy considering this is a trial with people who saw or heard things that could be attendance that are spread out all over the freaken' planet! It doesn't matter to the court if it is a work day for you. If you receive a formal summons with the proper amount of advanced notice (and your lawyers can't make any other arrangements) you either be there or be in contempt.

[SGWilko]

It might fit though .

If you apply enough force, a square peg will fit a round hole.....

[Bagwan]

I said it before and I'll say it again. If Sutil's defense had 1/2 of a brain they would have had Hamilton formally served with a subpoena for the first case. Then he would either have to attend, or his representation could try to arrange to have the trial date moved. I think that may not be very easy considering this is a trial with people who saw or heard things that could be attendance that are spread out all over the freaken' planet! It doesn't matter to the court if it is a work day for you. If you receive a formal summons with the proper amount of advanced notice (and your lawyers can't make any other arrangements) you either be there or be in contempt.

I get all that , but Hamilton must have recieved something from the court or lawyers from either side , as he was apparently required to be excused , given that he was excused .
He was on the original list of witnesses apparently . Why try to submit a statement if he wasn't ?

Maybe they did , simply , screw up .
It would seem pretty odd , though .
It would be all over the news if they suddenly changed law firms , wouldn't it ?

Suppose , though , that the judge saw Lewis's testimony , stating that he saw nothing , at the same time as being told of his need to be at work .
It would explain the judge not seeing the testimony as being useful to the case , and excusing the lad .

Your honour , may I have permission to treat the witness as hostile ?

[Bagwan]

If you apply enough force, a square peg will fit a round hole.....

In the 70's I had a press that you could put an egg into , to make it square .

[Bagwan]

Fetched that far , you think ?

McLaren haven't let a word out of Hamilton's mouth since he said he'd go to the trial early on in this saga .
McLaren's "Hamilton handlers" have been fielding any questions .

Simply saying he saw nothing and that his testimony still stands would change nothing in the trial if he really didn't , but it would go a long way to clearing his name if so .
Even if it was a carefully written statement , read by his handler , it would seem he could deflect some of the speculation .
As it stands , a little damage control would seem to be in order , but we see none .


There is still no reaction from Hamilton regarding being called a "coward" , pathetic" or "not a man" , either .
Isn't that slander ?

[SGWilko]

In the 70's I had a press that you could put an egg into , to make it square .

Some chickens lay 'double yokers'. In the 70's, I was either sucking my thumb, or embarrassing my sister.

[ArrowsFA1]

This thread has ceased to be.

npjOSLCR2hE

[Tazio]

I get all that , but Hamilton must have recieved something from the court or lawyers from either side , as he was apparently required to be excused , given that he was excused .
He was on the original list of witnesses apparently . Why try to submit a statement if he wasn't ?

Maybe they did , simply , screw up .
It would seem pretty odd , though .
It would be all over the news if they suddenly changed law firms , wouldn't it ?

Suppose , though , that the judge saw Lewis's testimony , stating that he saw nothing , at the same time as being told of his need to be at work .
It would explain the judge not seeing the testimony as being useful to the case , and excusing the lad .

Your honour , may I have permission to treat the witness as hostile ?
The judge has not heard any of Hamilton's testimony, because he has not given any.
The judge leaves it up to the prosecution, and defense to provide it under oath.
Hamilton slipped through a rather large crack because his council was able to get an excuse for him.
He may not have had to say anything in the court unless he was called to the witness stand. But if he wasn't excused it is only because of a belief that he would show up, because Sutil and him are such good bro's. :)

[Tazio]

I'm not convinced an organisation like McLaren would factor in to their production programme the possibilities of launching their car on the same day as a minor trial to give one of their drivers an excuse not to attend lol. McLaren were not the only team to launch their car that week and its almost tradition for them to launch a week before the first test so unless they have calculated this in previous years for the possibilities of a driver of theirs needed as a witness in a future trial. I think thats incredibly far fetched and one of the most wild speculations I have ever read here. I have to say your speculation is getting rather silly now bagwan, but I have to admire your determination in trying to pin at least something sinsister on Hamilton. I think you've covered just about everything apart from Lewis wearing full 'Hollywood prosthetic makeup' to look identical to Sutil and doing the attack himself, whilst leaving Sutil to carry the blame lol. :eek:
Why are you calling this a minor trial? Someone almost had his throat slit. You are suggesting that Hamilton's role in it will not be damning to Lewis, that is speculation? It is something I agree has a very good probability of being true. But, If the judge did not accept Hamiltons request to not attend, his job could not do anything to stop him from having to attend,
if he received a summons which is what the Sutil camp should have done.

[Tazio]

If this affair was tried in the jurisdiction where it happened at least one person would have probably received a few whacks with a cane, and it would be over with. (except for a law suit that could be launched in Europe.)


A convicted male criminal who is between the ages of 18 and 50 and has been certified medically fit by a medical officer may be subjected to judicial caning.
He will receive a maximum of 24 strokes of the cane on any one occasion, irrespective of the total number of offences committed.


Caning in Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore)

[Robinho]

Except it was in China not Singapore, although I would not be surprised if the punishments were even more draconian there

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

[Tazio]

Except it was in China not Singapore
OK! I'll just grab my coat. :o

[Dave B]

Might I respectfully suggest this thread is temporarily locked until such time as there's any further actual news, rather than unhelpful and potentially libellous speculation about a court case which by dint of the appeal is still ongoing?

[Bagwan]

Hamilton hasn't got to clear his name regarding anything and the petty sniping in the media from the Sutil's is small fry compared to the more important things happening in Hamilton's life at the moment, for example testing and concentrating on the season ahead. The only person who seems obsessed with this notion he has tarnished his reputation is you Bagwan. Lewis has put his foot in it more than once in the past by speaking to the media and for once I think letting his advisors answer questions or advise him to stay quiet is the most professional thing to do. If he has anything to say it will come at the appeal and staying quiet before then is the correct thing to do. If you want to spend the time until then trying to suggest he is guilty of the unknown, then thats up to you. I haven't seen this discussed anywhere else with such relentless suspicion and quite frankly it looks rather desperate to say the least.

At this point we only really know that the Sutils have tarnished his reputation , to which he has not replied .

I agree that they are smart to keep him gagged .
But , that would not preclude some sort of statement .

If there is nothing to hide , a re-assertion he saw nothing would be in order .
If Adrian's crew feel as slighted as they seem , they would need only to make another slur towards Hamilton to give him some real trouble .
An "Oh yeah , he'll be there ." would open a huge can of worms that would require a huge amount of damage control .

Given they felt bold enough to call him names in public in the first place says to me that when the appeal date is anounced , Lewis will get much more spotlight than he wants .


I do love a good mystery .

[Bagwan]

The judge has not heard any of Hamilton's testimony, because he has not given any.
The judge leaves it up to the prosecution, and defense to provide it under oath.
Hamilton slipped through a rather large crack because his council was able to get an excuse for him.
He may not have had to say anything in the court unless he was called to the witness stand. But if he wasn't excused it is only because of a belief that he would show up, because Sutil and him are such good bro's. :)

What would be the correct term for being asked to come , if it wasn't "summons" , or "subpeona" ?

He needed to be excused , so there must have been a formal "ask" .

[Tazio]

sub·poe·na/səˈpēnə/
Noun:
A writ ordering a person to attend a court: "they were all under subpoena to appear".

summons:
The paper that tells a defendant that he or she is being sued and asserts the power of the court to hear and determine the case. A form of legal process that commands the defendant to appear before the court on a specific day and to answer the complaint made by the plaintiff.

The summons is the document that officially starts a lawsuit. It must be in a form prescribed by the law governing procedure in the court involved, and it must be properly served on, or delivered to, the defendant. If the prescribed formalities are not observed, the court lacks authority to hear the dispute.
As the definition says a summons is for a law suit. So technically subpoena should be the correct term.
However I don't know what the hell they are calling this case. Not that I know, but the mealy mouthed invitations may have something to do with an arrangement that I have no clue about. Something provided for international criminal trials under the guidelines of the European Union.
Sorry I can't help you out anymore than this.

[pino]

Break time guys ;)