Scuderia Toro Rosso announces all-new driver line-up for 2012 [Archive]

jens

14th December 2011, 17:42

Quite an astonishing turnaround after recent rumours that both current STR drivers could possibly keep their seats! Like mentioned in other threads, hard decisions needed to be made and unless Red Bull felt Jaime-Buemi were the best they have got (and it wasn't the case), they needed to try something new. Probably Red Bull felt Alguersuari-Buemi were not going to be future champions, so it would be worthwhile to try out drivers with a superior junior record. The only problem is that if Ricciardo and Vergne match each other, who will be promoted to RBR? :p : Like STR couldn't decide, whether to sack Alguersuari or Buemi, who were performing evenly, and decided to keep both of them until the end of 2011.

I have to add though that I would welcome Alguersuari back in F1, he is still very young too. He just needs to find the right team, where to hang around as a reserve driver and wait for opportunities much like de la Rosa has been doing even at a much higher age.

Also, I think these news finally confirm Trulli in the Caterham seat as well.

DexDexter

14th December 2011, 17:43

jens

14th December 2011, 17:49

Interesting decision. I still don't see where the team is going, however. I mean next year they'll most likely have a similar up and down season with two inexperienced drivers. Are they going to replace the drivers again like puppets?

I think the crux of the matter here is that for Red Bull it is not important, where is "this team exactly going" and whether they are a bit inconsistent or not. They have their own RBR at the top, so they don't need two teams up there. Second team is fine to run solidly in the midfield and also strengthen Red Bull's position in the politics of F1 with two votes. Oh, and double amount of testing data (even if the cars are different)...

Nikki Katz

14th December 2011, 18:17

I thought there was an outside chance they'd drop Buemi for one of them, but I was really expecting both Buemi and Alguersuari (I still have to double check the spelling...) to start the season. Really surprised by this.

And Lehto sent to prison today too, it's not actually 1st April is it?

14th December 2011, 20:15

Surprising but good decision.

Maybe JA can get the second HRT seat, with Cepsa backing?

AndyL

15th December 2011, 11:35

The Red Bull test/reserve driver job is still open too, could be a possibility for Alguersuari or Buemi.

Robinho

15th December 2011, 12:20

Red Bull were going top buy Ricciardo the Caterham drive, they may choose to do the same for Jaime if they want to keep him around

The Black Knight

15th December 2011, 12:21

I can't say that I'm too surprised. While Alguesari did a top job this year, I don't think either Buemi or Alguesari are ever going to amount to top class acts in the field.

Robinho

15th December 2011, 12:25

i'm still unsure about Alguesari, I think given a winning car he would definately win races, whether he would step up and become a contender I don't know, but he has done all of his learning since F3 in an F1 car in public, rather than running round for 2 years winning a few GP2 races or championship and he has improved an immenses amount in that time. He is quick and he is still one of the youngest guys there. I think he definately deserves a seat somewhere

Ranger

15th December 2011, 14:39

From only the other day:

Asked by sports newspaper Marca what he will have to do to replace Mark Webber at the main team for 2013, Alguersuari answered: "What do I have to do?

"According to (Red Bull driver manager) Helmut (Marko), I have to win a race with Toro Rosso. Those were his words in Japan, so I'll try.

"I have 20 races to try it and I have as good a chance as any, however small," he laughed.

Should he win the promotion, however, Alguersuari refused to predict Sebastian Vettel-style dominance at the wheel of a Red Bull.

"It's a question I cannot answer," he insisted. "We do know what would happen if Alonso was in a Red Bull, but as for myself it would be pure speculation.

"So I think it's better to say nothing.

"What I will say is that if a driver has the best car, it is because he deserves it."

Make of that sentence what you will.

IMO there is no justice in having 21 year old Alguersuari without a drive and De La Rosa, Trulli, et al still taking up seats.

jens

15th December 2011, 15:31

The issue with Alguersuari is that even though he impressed at times, he was still quite inconsistent. He was struggling in the first half of the season, had several bad performances in the second half too (Singapore, Japan) and was often nowhere in qualifying. I can see, why STR was looking for a change as such driver isn't really close to being a top driver and would get clearly shown up in a top team.

As for justice - what has this got to do with F1? :) Every team tries to reach decisions based on solutions that are most beneficial for them (they can get it wrong from time-to-time too) - perhaps that's as fair as it can be?

steveaki13

15th December 2011, 16:47

Jaime may well end up at HRT for the spanish team.

Malbec

15th December 2011, 18:33

I think the crux of the matter here is that for Red Bull it is not important, where is "this team exactly going" and whether they are a bit inconsistent or not. They have their own RBR at the top, so they don't need two teams up there. Second team is fine to run solidly in the midfield and also strengthen Red Bull's position in the politics of F1 with two votes. Oh, and double amount of testing data (even if the cars are different)...

What is the point of the Red Bull driver project though?

I don't like Jaime Alguersuari but he was evolving rapidly as a driver and at 21 had a fair bit to go. How do they determine after 2 seasons that this guy definitely will not evolve into a champion and ought to be thrown away?

I suspect they're looking for the next champion but they lost Vettel to BMW and were lucky to get him back, it doesn't seem like a very well run programme.

jens

15th December 2011, 19:18

How do they determine after 2 seasons that this guy definitely will not evolve into a champion and ought to be thrown away?

I suspect they're looking for the next champion but they lost Vettel to BMW and were lucky to get him back, it doesn't seem like a very well run programme.

I can only guess, but IF Ricciardo/Vergne as total rookies were showing already more in free practices than Alguersuari after a two-year experience, then despite young age Red Bull could decide that the guys with less experience could turn out to be bigger.

Which programme is well-run? Red Bull's programme is massive, so they have a lot of drivers and not all of them can be champions. McLaren with their Hamilton experiment looks good, but if they had tens of drivers, most of them wouldn't get far. But it looks like Red Bull is also gradually learning with experience and now with a more critical evaluation they have less junior drivers than they used to have years ago. With Dan and JEV in F1, I now only know Sainz Jr, Kyvat and also Williamson in feeder series.

N4D13

15th December 2011, 20:13

I don't like Jaime Alguersuari but he was evolving rapidly as a driver and at 21 had a fair bit to go. How do they determine after 2 seasons that this guy definitely will not evolve into a champion and ought to be thrown away?
It looks like they're looking for people like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel, who impressed ever since their F1 debut, and not always in fast cars. In that case, dropping Alguersuari and Buemi was the right call to make, because they aren't that good.

That said, letting Alguersuari without a decent drive (meaning anything other than a HRT drive) for 2012 looks rather harsh, because he has pulled off some nice performances during the year. Perhaps he hasn't been consistent, but neither have some drivers who are around in better teams. And he's only two and a half seasons into his career - apparently, he has speed, but delivering consistent results usually takes more than that.

CNR

15th December 2011, 21:21

STR role is to train rookies, says Tost - Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111215/F1/111219934)

Scuderia Toro Rosso boss Franz Tost says the role of his team is that of a “rookie training school.”
The decision to replace both 2011 drivers with Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111214/F1/111219954) was cause for surprise in Formula One (http://www.autoweek.com/section/f1) circles. However, Tost says that it is a logical one, and he insists that deposed drivers Sébastien Buemi and Jaime Alguersuari (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111215/F1/111219944) have both had their chances.

Read more: STR role is to train rookies, says Tost - Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20111215/F1/111219934#ixzz1gdmLwUf0)

from this i would say no redbull backing for a drive with another team

wedge

16th December 2011, 00:55

F1 is a ruthless sport/business but Marko is really taking the urine. Just what is the RB driver program really for?

DexDexter

16th December 2011, 10:07

It looks like they're looking for people like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel, who impressed ever since their F1 debut, and not always in fast cars. In that case, dropping Alguersuari and Buemi was the right call to make, because they aren't that good.

That said, letting Alguersuari without a decent drive (meaning anything other than a HRT drive) for 2012 looks rather harsh, because he has pulled off some nice performances during the year. Perhaps he hasn't been consistent, but neither have some drivers who are around in better teams. And he's only two and a half seasons into his career - apparently, he has speed, but delivering consistent results usually takes more than that.

I agree, Jaime drove some outstanding races particularly in the second half of the season. He was obviously developing all the time and now they just threw him away. That's ok in a way, but why on earth did they have to do it in the middle of December when practically all the seats are taken? That's just nasty for Jaime and Buemi.

I am evil Homer

16th December 2011, 10:24

Nothing personal against either new driver but I hope the 2012 car is an utter dog and they both fail miserably. Jamie was thrown into that seat with no testing and struggled liek hell but I thught this season showed real glimpses of maturing and his talent coming to the fore.

And now he's drive less. Class acts all round at STR and Red Bull management level.

Bezza

16th December 2011, 13:13

Problem is, if Toro Rosso produce a rubbish 2012 car and Vergne and Ricciardo are closely matched, how will anybody be able to tell if they are both really good drivers. There is no sufficient basis of a yardstick. The same as Alguersuari and Buemi.

They would've been much better dropping Buemi and promoted one of Ricciardo and Vergne to see how they compared against an established driver.

The whole thing is a load of nonsense.

I genuinely think Alguersuari is a really good driver, and he needs a second chance and a bit of luck somewhere to get another go.

Robinho

16th December 2011, 13:21

equally, if they produce a belter of a car and the 2 are equally matched and pick up a few top 6's or even a podium, everyone will proclaim them as the 2nd coming, when in reality the car might have been capable of more.

Wim_Impreza

16th December 2011, 13:33

Jean-Eric Vergne has impressed in F3 and in testing with the Torro Rosso. He may have sponsor backing but he is deserving of the ride.

That is the men who crashed into the pitwall at the Nürburgring on a straight earlier this year...

jens

16th December 2011, 14:00

Problem is, if Toro Rosso produce a rubbish 2012 car and Vergne and Ricciardo are closely matched, how will anybody be able to tell if they are both really good drivers.

It may not be an ideal situation, but team has many ways to analyze performance, like telemetry. An average F1 fan might find it difficult to tell whether both are really good drivers, but the team will know.

Just what is the RB driver program really for?

To find the next real ace? And in order to find him they need to go through many drivers, so can't keep the same ones for long. Also giving opportunities (even if short ones) to many drivers helps with marketing too, because in that way more countries and markets get covered by their F1 programme. So the strategy is that reasonably good ones are given a couple of years in F1. Those, who are vettelesque, will get more.

One problem though is that STR drivers find it difficult to negotiate with other teams. I am not really aware of their freedom in this regard and whether any team would have been interested in, say, Alguersuari. So they are sort of living in their own dimension, cut away from the rest of the F1 world.

N4D13

16th December 2011, 14:00

I agree, Jaime drove some outstanding races particularly in the second half of the season. He was obviously developing all the time and now they just threw him away. That's ok in a way, but why on earth did they have to do it in the middle of December when practically all the seats are taken? That's just nasty for Jaime and Buemi.
Tell that to Speed and Bourdais. :(

wedge

16th December 2011, 15:41

It may not be an ideal situation, but team has many ways to analyze performance, like telemetry. An average F1 fan might find it difficult to tell whether both are really good drivers, but the team will know.

To find the next real ace? And in order to find him they need to go through many drivers, so can't keep the same ones for long. Also giving opportunities (even if short ones) to many drivers helps with marketing too, because in that way more countries and markets get covered by their F1 programme. So the strategy is that reasonably good ones are given a couple of years in F1. Those, who are vettelesque, will get more.

One problem though is that STR drivers find it difficult to negotiate with other teams. I am not really aware of their freedom in this regard and whether any team would have been interested in, say, Alguersuari. So they are sort of living in their own dimension, cut away from the rest of the F1 world.

The problem is that RB are dealing with a conveyor belt youngsters. The reality is that there are very, very few drivers to be rightly regarded as special talent. What happens to those who don't match 'expectations'?

Most newcomers need nurturing. DC at times looked out of his depth for Williams, JB had no faith from Briatore but look how their careers turned out.

Jamie looked like a solid F1 driver at the very least and perhaps at least a race winner in the right car.

ArrowsFA1

16th December 2011, 15:57

So the strategy is that reasonably good ones are given a couple of years in F1. Those, who are vettelesque, will get more.
To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber. With so many drivers signed up it's inevitable that many will be discarded along the way.

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

It's great having a ladder of talent but IMHO others have done a better job for the drivers involved than Red Bull. Look at the drivers who progressed through Paul Stewart Racing for example and excelled. Perhaps they did not do so in F1 (e.g. de Ferran, Franchitti) but PSR gave them an opportunity to develop and their careers benefitted.

jens

16th December 2011, 16:02

The problem is that RB are dealing with a conveyor belt youngsters. The reality is that there are very, very few drivers to be rightly regarded as special talent. What happens to those who don't match 'expectations'?

Most newcomers need nurturing. DC at times looked out of his depth for Williams, JB had no faith from Briatore but look how their careers turned out.

And indeed RB is looking for those very few special talents. Why should Red Bull endlessly support those, who do not 'match expectations'? What happens? Tough luck. Just like what has happened to Petrov and Senna. Do Lotus/Renault owe anything to these drivers to keep supporting them just because "they showed some promise"?

Red Bull has been 'nurturing' those drivers for a long time, not just F1, but also through feeder series.

Newcomers indeed need nurturing, but those drivers have got 2,5-3 years already, which is enough to establish yourself in F1. And this is way more than, say, Senna's half a year at Renault and people were arguing whether he proved himself or not. The difference with Button's early career is that all STR drivers have had the luxury to stay in the same team with stability to create an efficient working relationship, while Button had to leave Williams and re-build himself.

I think people are too negative. It is not appreciated, how much money Red Bull has been throwing in to support drivers through feeder ranks - without that support they may have got nowhere at all! This doesn't mean Red Bull owes them to support them all their careers.

Yes, tough for a 21-y-o Alguersuari, but if he is any good, he can still come back. Just he needs to look after himself now like many drivers have had to do - a way of maturing. Look at Wickens, he lost Red Bull support 2 years ago. Yet he has managed to come back and win WSR with alternative backing.

jens

16th December 2011, 16:18

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

So which programme should a young driver prefer? Let's take a look at Gravity - d'Ambrosio got one year, but seems to be out of the game now.

Oh, and many drivers could have done more in their racing career, not just the Toro Rosso ones. You could turn it around by saying that without Red Bull's support and with the help of an alternative sponsor/driver scheme it is very unlikely either Alguersuari or Buemi would have had 3 years of F1 by now, perhaps no F1 at all!

Red Bull programme is hard, because there have been many drivers and the competition is tight. But it also gives more opportunities, because Red Bull has a special junior F1 team, where you can actually race. No other junior programme has such luxury of additional two F1 race seats just for you, which means that graduating to F1 would be more difficult via alternative junior programme.

Malbec

16th December 2011, 16:27

jens

16th December 2011, 16:31

RB lost Vettel to BMW as well and were lucky to get him back into STR. It makes you wonder how well thought out the project is if they can lose one of their bright stars to a rival team.

I don't remember so precisely, but wasn't Vettel simply on loan from Red Bull to BMW?

Another thing is that back then Red Bull was no better than a midfield team and it was more difficult to attract special drivers, hence racing for Ferrari/McLaren/BMW perhaps looked like an ultimate goal for any up-and-coming driver as well. But now RBR is the top team and the situation has changed.

Although F1 is obviously a tough sport to succeed in I do think STR's treatment of Buemi/Alguersuari in particular has been poor. To dump them just before Xmas gives them little to no hope of finding any F1 drive for 2012. The supposed logic behind getting two fresh drivers is that STR is for F1 rookies and Buemi/Alguersuari are no longer rookies. If that is genuinely the case that would have been obvious six months ago so why the late notice?

I can agree with the claim that the way RB/STR dropped Alguersuari and Buemi was harsh and it would have been nice to inform them earlier. But the issue here is that F1 negotiations are often not straightforward and simple, leaving everyone content. Perhaps it wasn't nice that McLaren-Alonso found a settlement only in November '07, so that Alonso could find nothing better than Renault? Or John Watson couldn't find a drive for 1984 after getting a late boot from McLaren? I guess the reason for late notice is that STR were considering Alguersuari/Buemi for a long time, hence they didn't drop them earlier. Remember, we heard rumours about a possible Caterham-Ricciardo deal, but for whatever reason it didn't materialize.

truefan72

16th December 2011, 19:53

To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber. With so many drivers signed up it's inevitable that many will be discarded along the way.

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

It's great having a ladder of talent but IMHO others have done a better job for the drivers involved than Red Bull. Look at the drivers who progressed through Paul Stewart Racing for example and excelled. Perhaps they did not do so in F1 (e.g. de Ferran, Franchitti) but PSR gave them an opportunity to develop and their careers benefitted.

Agreed.
If I was a young driver, I would stay away from the red bull "turnstile" program

I think that this was a pathetic decision by STR, then again I really don't think too highly of their management team anyway
They have consistently made mistakes with their driver selection and this one is no different.
The real problem is the car not the drivers
Now they will spend half the year figuring out the car, the other half having to drivers figuring out F1 and the team
Basically taking two steps back in an attempt to go one step forward
Who knows, In 2013 2 new drivers will probably be in place

As for Buemi and JA, I expect both to be back in F1 in the near future, possibly one at ferrari (Buemi)
and JA would do well to apply for a 3rd driver seat at Mclaren ( as I rate it 50/50 that Hamilton goes to Red Bull if RBR has another dominant season) or another team with aging drivers.

wedge

17th December 2011, 14:55

So which programme should a young driver prefer? Let's take a look at Gravity - d'Ambrosio got one year, but seems to be out of the game now.

Oh, and many drivers could have done more in their racing career, not just the Toro Rosso ones. You could turn it around by saying that without Red Bull's support and with the help of an alternative sponsor/driver scheme it is very unlikely either Alguersuari or Buemi would have had 3 years of F1 by now, perhaps no F1 at all!

Red Bull programme is hard, because there have been many drivers and the competition is tight. But it also gives more opportunities, because Red Bull has a special junior F1 team, where you can actually race. No other junior programme has such luxury of additional two F1 race seats just for you, which means that graduating to F1 would be more difficult via alternative junior programme.

Not just F1, but post-F1. Surely there's a degree of corporate responsibility?

For sure there was Scott Speed/NASCAR but that seems like an exception.

Would Jaime still get backing if he raced in a different series? Say for example a non-factory sportscar team? When WSC folded M-B helped Schumi into F1, when DTM folded in the late 90s M-B helped Dario Franchitti into CART.

Malbec

17th December 2011, 19:17

I don't remember so precisely, but wasn't Vettel simply on loan from Red Bull to BMW?

No, I believe he signed a separate contract with BMW who specifically released him so he could go to STR. That wouldn't have been the case had he been on loan.

I can agree with the claim that the way RB/STR dropped Alguersuari and Buemi was harsh and it would have been nice to inform them earlier. But the issue here is that F1 negotiations are often not straightforward and simple, leaving everyone content. Perhaps it wasn't nice that McLaren-Alonso found a settlement only in November '07, so that Alonso could find nothing better than Renault? Or John Watson couldn't find a drive for 1984 after getting a late boot from McLaren? I guess the reason for late notice is that STR were considering Alguersuari/Buemi for a long time, hence they didn't drop them earlier. Remember, we heard rumours about a possible Caterham-Ricciardo deal, but for whatever reason it didn't materialize.

I think most people who have followed F1 are perfectly aware that contract negotiations can be tough and complicated but you're missing something here. Both Alguersuari and Buemi were given the impression they would be carrying on for 2012 and therefore weren't looking elsewhere for drives. Buemi was in a Red Bull simulator at the time he got the call, why bother if he wasn't going to be driving for them in 2012?

With Alonso the driver initiated the move to Renault with his manager also managing the team he wanted to move to. John Watson was getting old and close to retirement anyway.

For the incoming rookies what message does this send? Start performing right away or we will terminate your career? That might work with some personalities but it does not with others and is not good personnel management. Look at how the pressure to perform got to Piquet Junior and what kind of behaviour that lead him to undertake. There are plenty of other less extreme examples with drivers trying too hard because of the pressure they are under and not performing to their best.

Also for STR this is not a good decision. Rookies need some time to bed in and learn the ropes which is why just about every midfield team takes one veteran and one rookie on. This will hurt the team in a very very closely contested part of the grid. Plus it is incredibly difficult to quantify just how good a driver really is unless there is an existing known driver to compare with, ie his teammate.

jens

17th December 2011, 19:49

I think most people who have followed F1 are perfectly aware that contract negotiations can be tough and complicated but you're missing something here. Both Alguersuari and Buemi were given the impression they would be carrying on for 2012 and therefore weren't looking elsewhere for drives. Buemi was in a Red Bull simulator at the time he got the call, why bother if he wasn't going to be driving for them in 2012?

I think a driver, who does NOT have a contract for next year, should always be checking alternative options as well. I'd think that the recent STR duo was aware that Ric/Ver were at least knocking on the door and they couldn't be so sure about being retained. Of course I don't know, what was going on behind the scenes or whether Tost/Marko were orally lying to the drivers that "don't worry, you'll get the contract". But otherwise a driver should always be busy to secure the future in any possible way unless he has a firm contract. As we have seen in many cases a driver and a team can be "close" to signing a deal, yet it is not going to materialize - one of the latest examples being Räikkönen and Williams.

For the incoming rookies what message does this send? Start performing right away or we will terminate your career?
---
Also for STR this is not a good decision. Rookies need some time to bed in and learn the ropes which is why just about every midfield team takes one veteran and one rookie on. This will hurt the team in a very very closely contested part of the grid. Plus it is incredibly difficult to quantify just how good a driver really is unless there is an existing known driver to compare with, ie his teammate.

I would agree if those drivers got a single season in F1. But they got three. Klien also got three. Liuzzi got less (two) and afterwards managed to secure a future elsewhere (Force India). I don't think in retrospect one can say Red Bull did a big mistake by letting them go.

As for STR themselves, they are a unique team in the sense of having a bit different purpose to other teams. The team is for "driver testing" rather than "team development". They are the only team to leave an impression that their ultimate goal is not really to win the world championship. We may disagree with such philosophy and keep arguing that it would be more efficient to have an experienced driver to lead the team forward, but they don't care about that aspect.

Malbec

17th December 2011, 20:38

I think a driver, who does NOT have a contract for next year, should always be checking alternative options as well. I'd think that the recent STR duo was aware that Ric/Ver were at least knocking on the door and they couldn't be so sure about being retained. Of course I don't know, what was going on behind the scenes or whether Tost/Marko were orally lying to the drivers that "don't worry, you'll get the contract".

So you're saying now that Alguersuari and Buemi were both uniquely stupid for drivers this season in not checking out alternatives? Both made it clear that they went into the off-season believing that they would be retained for the following season so the decision was a total shock to them. Do you think that there just might have been something said to them by Tost and Marko that made them think that? If your boss calls you one day about future plans involving you and the team (which both drivers I believe said) then don't you think its natural for them to feel that they would be retained regardless of the contract situation?

As for STR themselves, they are a unique team in the sense of having a bit different purpose to other teams. The team is for "driver testing" rather than "team development". They are the only team to leave an impression that their ultimate goal is not really to win the world championship. We may disagree with such philosophy and keep arguing that it would be more efficient to have an experienced driver to lead the team forward, but they don't care about that aspect.

Sorry but I completely disagree.

STR is there on the grid for the same reasons as everyone else, to make a profit by being productive for their owners and sponsors. Up to this season that has solely meant pleasing Red Bull and your argument is valid to that point. They are now partially owned by an Abu Dhabi based investment firm who have no interest in the Red Bull driver programme. If STR fall back and lose out on prize money because of driver choice do you think the Arab investors might get upset?

jens

17th December 2011, 21:01

So you're saying now that Alguersuari and Buemi were both uniquely stupid for drivers this season in not checking out alternatives? Both made it clear that they went into the off-season believing that they would be retained for the following season so the decision was a total shock to them. Do you think that there just might have been something said to them by Tost and Marko that made them think that? If your boss calls you one day about future plans involving you and the team (which both drivers I believe said) then don't you think its natural for them to feel that they would be retained regardless of the contract situation?

Sorry but I completely disagree.

STR is there on the grid for the same reasons as everyone else, to make a profit by being productive for their owners and sponsors. Up to this season that has solely meant pleasing Red Bull and your argument is valid to that point. They are now partially owned by an Abu Dhabi based investment firm who have no interest in the Red Bull driver programme. If STR fall back and lose out on prize money because of driver choice do you think the Arab investors might get upset?

You have some good thoughts. :) But I'm still unsure, how in the fickle world of F1 one can take an "oral confirmation" for certain, even when we have seen already contracted drivers getting sacked. I think Petrov felt comfortable at Renault/Lotus too, in addition he (allegedly) had a contract for 2012. Discussions about involvement in the future of a team can for instance include a third driver role, or whatever.

Fair point about the interest of Arab investors. But the interesting aspect here is that after the arrival of those investors Alguersuari's chances of staying in the team seemed to rise due to Spanish CEPSA (owned by the same Arabs) stickers on the car. Yet it wasn't important for them to keep Alguersuari and they are fine with the completely new line-up.

CNR

18th December 2011, 00:01

the 1 thing that none of us know is who is the better game player (red bull f1 simulator)
Red Bull Racing F1 Simulator - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Q6HGzn-pc)

ioan

18th December 2011, 15:33

Most newcomers need nurturing. DC at times looked out of his depth for Williams, JB had no faith from Briatore but look how their careers turned out.

To be honest I don't see anything special about DC's career, he looked out of his depth at Williams, and at McLaren and at RedBull.

ioan

18th December 2011, 15:40

Poor Buemi and Aguersuari?! Give me a break. What about people who have nothing to eat and no water to drink?!
Or are we mistaking F1 with social security nowadays?

prpr

18th December 2011, 17:30

Malbec

18th December 2011, 21:45

I think Petrov felt comfortable at Renault/Lotus too, in addition he (allegedly) had a contract for 2012. Discussions about involvement in the future of a team can for instance include a third driver role, or whatever.

We don't know anything about the details of Petrov's contract, however given the relative ease and short time period in which his contract for 2012 was cancelled I suspect there was a clause that allowed him to be dropped.

Fair point about the interest of Arab investors. But the interesting aspect here is that after the arrival of those investors Alguersuari's chances of staying in the team seemed to rise due to Spanish CEPSA (owned by the same Arabs) stickers on the car. Yet it wasn't important for them to keep Alguersuari and they are fine with the completely new line-up.

The thing is though that if a team keeps making driver decisions that affect overall team performance the sponsors will get concerned. I don't think Renault's antics this season have instilled their sponsors with any degree of comfort for the future either.

F1boat

19th December 2011, 07:27

"I believe they are complete. They have done what they can and I don't think that after 50 races there is a large margin for improvement." Giorgio Ascanelli, STR Technical Director, quoted in Autosport of 24/11/2011, speaking of Alguersuari and Buemi. We should have seen the writing on the wall.

And Ascanelli knows what he is talking about. When he said that Vettel is great, he was prophetic. IMO he can separate the good from the great.

Dave B

19th December 2011, 12:39

I can't see anything wrong with STR replacing their drivers. It seems harsh, but how many drivers would give their eye teeth for an F1 drive, let alone with the sister team of the reigning champions? Toro Rosso makes no secret of its role as a team for developing young talent - Jamie and Sebastian have had plenty of opportunity to find other seats and have benefitted massively from their time with the squad.

wedge

20th December 2011, 12:44

Poor Buemi and Aguersuari?! Give me a break. What about people who have nothing to eat and no water to drink?!
Or are we mistaking F1 with social security nowadays?

I think an organisation with a development program at top level motorsports has a degree of welfare for their drivers to help them reach their potential.

Schumi probably would not have had the F1 career he had M-B not bothered about their drivers after M-B pulled out of WSC.

"I believe they are complete. They have done what they can and I don't think that after 50 races there is a large margin for improvement." Giorgio Ascanelli, STR Technical Director, quoted in Autosport of 24/11/2011, speaking of Alguersuari and Buemi. We should have seen the writing on the wall.

Coming from the words of Ascanelli then I fully accept STR's decision.

jens

5th January 2012, 12:23

Sebastien Buemi confirmed as Red Bull Racing's reserve and test driver - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96889)

So the complaints have not been correct that STR drivers have been treated unfairly and without any notice thrown out of Red Bull programme altogether. The same Buemi, who was allegedly on Red Bull's simulator, when STR's new line-up was announced, has been confirmed as reserve driver for RBR. So he has been part of the team all the time.

So now I wonder, what will happen to Alguersuari, especially as some have pointed out that Tost allegedly told him there were some "plans" for him.

N4D13

5th January 2012, 16:59

So now I wonder, what will happen to Alguersuari, especially as some have pointed out that Tost allegedly told him there were some "plans" for him.
HRT perhaps? I don't think it's a good option, but it's not like he has a lot of choices anyway. The problem with HRT is that the car is going to be a dog, so it wouldn't be a surprise that PdlR could challenge him... and even if Jaime beat Pedro, what would it prove? It's not like HRT would be another step towards a fine drive, but then again, a crappy seat is better than no seat at all.

CNR

8th January 2012, 11:09

'Alguersuari turned down HRT role' | Planet F1 | Formula One | News, Standings, Results, Features, Video (http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/18227/7417877/-Alguersuari-turned-down-HRT-role)-
Jaime Alguersuari has reportedly said 'no' to the opportunity to join HRT as he reckons it was would be a "step backwards."

Alguersuari has "definitely" ruled out HRT as it is "considered a step backwards in his career."

zako85

8th January 2012, 11:58

................

wedge

8th January 2012, 12:28

ArrowsFA1

8th January 2012, 18:51

truefan72

8th January 2012, 19:33

Red Bull's Helmut Marko says ousted Toro Rosso duo Sebastien Buemi and Jaime Alguersuari had enough chances to prove their worth in Formula 1 - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96917)

If they weren't winners why retain Buemi as Red Bull's third driver?

agreed and the true loser was the car at STR not the drivers
Marko is a clown anyway.
The Eurosport article pretty much says the same thing and it is amusing to me.
If either one of those drivers were in an RBR, they probably would have won a race already
what a nutjob

Malbec

14th January 2012, 21:40

So now I wonder, what will happen to Alguersuari, especially as some have pointed out that Tost allegedly told him there were some "plans" for him.

jens, what do you make of Marko's comments that Alguersuari is not intelligent enough to make a topline F1 driver?

Alguersuari and Buemi (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/01/alguersuari-and-buemi-not-winners-says-red-bulls-helmut-marko/)

Do you think making the results of internal Red Bull aptitude testing to the public is appropriate in this instance? I for one don't.

BDunnell

14th January 2012, 21:46

jens

15th January 2012, 08:09

jens, what do you make of Marko's comments that Alguersuari is not intelligent enough to make a topline F1 driver?

Alguersuari and Buemi (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/01/alguersuari-and-buemi-not-winners-says-red-bulls-helmut-marko/)

Do you think making the results of internal Red Bull aptitude testing to the public is appropriate in this instance? I for one don't.

Hmm, I think after a lot of protest by F1 fans Marko & Co felt the need to explain the reasons of sacking in a more detailed manner. And detailed background information is always interesting for the public. But this would be nice to get done in a gentle matter.

I guess they do not need to tell the exact results, but they can always tell that besides racing on track they have these and those ways of analysing the drivers and data further.

Years ago I remember Allen writing an article about a computer program, where the intelligence of drivers was tested. And where it was said that this would show whether you have the talent to become a top driver. :p : About the results it was only said that Kubica had got the best score.

Garry Walker

18th January 2012, 17:52

F1 is a ruthless sport/business but Marko is really taking the urine. Just what is the RB driver program really for?Helmut Marko is urine.

Agreed.
If I was a young driver, I would stay away from the red bull "turnstile" program

As for Buemi and JA, I expect both to be back in F1 in the near future, possibly one at ferrari (Buemi)
and JA would do well to apply for a 3rd driver seat at Mclaren ( as I rate it 50/50 that Hamilton goes to Red Bull if RBR has another dominant season) or another team with aging drivers.
What the heck are you on about. Both those two losers were given more than enough chances, but they showed NOTHING. STR would have simply wasted their time with those two.
Buemi at Ferrari? LOL. As a what? A cleaner? A 56th reserve driver?
Neither those two were a race winner (potential I mean). Let's see if the new guys are better. I am sure they are.

I can't see anything wrong with STR replacing their drivers. It seems harsh, but how many drivers would give their eye teeth for an F1 drive, let alone with the sister team of the reigning champions? Toro Rosso makes no secret of its role as a team for developing young talent - Jamie and Sebastian have had plenty of opportunity to find other seats and have benefitted massively from their time with the squad.Wow, you actually make sense at times.

That aside, one wonders whether Marko's expectations are unrealistic, given the extent to which Red Bull has (in the best sense) been spoiled by Vettel's brilliance. There is no doubt that, in both Vettel and Webber, the current RBR line-up is amongst the most intelligent in the paddock.
Vettel intelligent? Based on what? He seems quite stupid and unable to do anything without his fanboy Helmut Marko.

Years ago I remember Allen writing an article about a computer program, where the intelligence of drivers was tested. And where it was said that this would show whether you have the talent to become a top driver. :p : About the results it was only said that Kubica had got the best score.
Would you have a link for that?