It's the off season so what the hell

[SarahFan]

Scenario is a six race super series: Indy, phoenix, Texas, Cleveland, long beach and elkhardt lake

Point system is 10 for a win .. 9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

Rank these drivers in their prime

Bourdais
Zanardi
Damatta
Deferren
Tracy
Montoya
Andretti (micheal)
Lil al
Moore
Patrick
Castro neves
Franchitti
Power
Dixon

Feel free to say why, who wins where etc

[SarahFan]

Let's also assume equal equipment

[heliocastroneves#3]

Indianapolis: Dario Franchitti
Phoenix: Michael Andretti
Texas: Helio Castro-Neves
Cleveland: Alex Zanardi
Long Beach: Alex Zanardi
Elkhart Lake: Greg Moore

Will tell later why I think those above will win on those circuits, as I'm at work right now.

[Chris R]

At their prime and in equal equipment - Little Al and michael would duke it out with Little al coming out on top..... In his prime Little was both fast and easy on equipment - hard combo to beat.....

"at their prime" I think those two would likely "run the table" on all the events.... as good as the rest are/were, I do not think any of them were as good as Little Al and Michael when they were at their best......

[DanicaFan]

Danica Patrick on the ovals!

[call_me_andrew]

Danica Patrick on the ovals!

Why are you still here?

[Marbles]

Scenario is a six race super series: Indy, phoenix, Texas, Cleveland, long beach and elkhardt lake

Point system is 10 for a win .. 9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

Rank these drivers in their prime

Bourdais
Zanardi
Damatta
Deferren
Tracy
Montoya
Andretti (micheal)
Lil al
Moore
Patrick
Castro neves
Franchitti
Power
Dixon

Feel free to say why, who wins where etc

Montoya won in an unfamiliar car in a one off... have to give Indy to him.
Phoenix --Tracy had two laps on the field before he ran into his buddy J. Vasser. In his prime he would have avoided running into him.
Texas... hmmm... Dixon... no, HCN... errr... maybe Power or Franchitti.
Cleveland goes to De Ferran for one win and some great runs. Zanardi gets honourable mention.
L'il Al owned Long Beach back when he drove before he drank.
Elkhardt Lake? Worst to first without a caution would be pretty impressive even though most of the field offed themselves. Once again goes to PT.

Just referenced from my foggy memory of races gone by. No actual statistics referenced or implied. Back with results from second through tenth and final championship results at a later date.

[SarahFan]

Danica Patrick on the ovals!

Hook line and sinker

*for those rooted in reality please carry on

[chuck34]

I gotta say Little Al would probably win most of these races. Out of those guys, he' s gotta be about the best. Fast, smooth, and easy on equipment. Although Greg Moore would have been cool to see what he could do, as I'm not sure he was quite to his prime yet when he was taken from us.

Note 1: Why limit to these guys? Why not older guys? Just curious

Note 2: I would sub out Michigan for Texas. But that's just me.

[SarahFan]

Because IMO they are the top of this 'modern era'....sans Danica as I three get in for the obvious reason, I probably should have included jaque villenueve also... Perhaps I missed another someone, maybe sam for instance .... But I figured on those 6 tracks an argument could be made that any of them might win the championship

And sure Michigan or Fontana could easily have been substituted for Texas... Just as Nazareth or Milwaukee could be in place of phoenix.... Just IMO those six make up the most diverse six race super series

[Chris R]

I gotta say Little Al would probably win most of these races. Out of those guys, he' s gotta be about the best. Fast, smooth, and easy on equipment. Although Greg Moore would have been cool to see what he could do, as I'm not sure he was quite to his prime yet when he was taken from us.

Note 1: Why limit to these guys? Why not older guys? Just curious

Note 2: I would sub out Michigan for Texas. But that's just me.

My thoughts exactly on the winner - Michael would sneak a win or tow in if he didn't break the car - I thin Michael had more raw speed than Little Al - but he was more subject to brain fade and breaking stuff....

SarahFan - good food for thought on the whole thing - I might have thrown in Emmo - that would be the only one who might change up everything IMHO - heck he was never in his "prime" when in CART and was darn near as good as Al and Michael at that.... I think Texas is a good representative track for the IRL era... it is a unique (to the IRL) place that test drivers in a unique way....

Also, the whole subject made me realize several things:
1. How much missing Indy in 1995 and the subsequent split that never allowed Little al to defend his honor/win really screwed up his life for good - I don't think his issues were a big deal until after 1995....
2. Since it seems like Al might have had issues prior to 1995 as well, how good would he have been if he had treated his mind & body well??
3. Michael's foray into F-1 and the later split really messed up his career stats as well....
4. Basically, the two best drivers of a generation were robbed of careers that could/would have exceeded those of their fathers (at least in Indycar) largely because of the split... these two really were THAT good in their day....

[heliocastroneves#3]

Danica Patrick on the ovals!

Of course she will! (with a car which can reach the 245 mph, while the others stuck with 225 mph or get a DNF as result due to an accident)

[Loneranger]

Scenario is a six race super series: Indy, phoenix, Texas, Cleveland, long beach and elkhardt lake

Point system is 10 for a win .. 9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1

Rank these drivers in their prime

Bourdais
Zanardi
Damatta
Deferren
Tracy
Montoya
Andretti (micheal)
Lil al
Moore
Patrick
Castro neves
Franchitti
Power
Dixon

Feel free to say why, who wins where etc

I'm your Huckleberry!

My top pick is gonna be fought out between Andretti, Unser and Zanardi. You could give top honors to either one of them. I'd lean a little more favorably towards Andretti and Unser only because they proved over a greater period of time just how dominant and successful they could be. They competed against everybody and in their prime of prime they were untouchable. All three of them had multiple first to last to first victories and did it without any stupid passing zones or push button gimmicks. The right balance of aggression and patience made all three of these guys very balanced and complete racers.

I'm gonna stick DeFerran in right here as the lone wolf. I was a fan the second he started racing that big yellow banana for Hall. I think most people would probably argue that 2000 when he won his championship with Penske was his prime, but I would argue that 1997 when he damn near won the title with Walker was one of his best seasons. Him and Zanardi went toe to toe that year and DeFerran never once backed down. No victories that year but he drove the wheels off that car. At the time, arguably one of the most aggressive drivers the series had every seen. Go watch him in Cleveland in 1996 or 1997. The guy was an animal. What Penske managed to do and probably more so Mears, was temper that aggression and it translated into two championships. I at times think they slowed him down too much.

Next I would put Montoya and Tracy. Both cut from the same cloth. Balls out win at all cost but not the most brilliant decision makers behind the wheel. Cost Tracy many a victory, and likely a championship or two. The same could be said of Montoya but he lucked out and got his titles in spite of the stupid things he did on the track. I can't think of more fun guys to watch though. These guys were always going for it and what racers should be! Winners. But in a super series, mistakes would cost these guys.

Next pick is a tough one. I think maybe Bourdais and DaMatta. Unquestionably fast guys. But they were only as fast as their cars. If the cars didn't come off the truck fast they weren't fast. If they qualified well, they were untouchable. I think Bourdais probably still has the best winning percentage but it was done against little to know competition. That's a fact Ken so bite me! Bourdais never had to race against Penske or Ganassi. I make the same argument for Tracy's championship. Their success came in an era that had no real challenges. Even still, these guys had an inate ability to just be fast.

Next I am going to say Power and Moore. Ying and Yang. As dominate a road and street course driver that Power is, I don't think there was ever a better oval driver in Moore. I see alot of similarities between the two. Focused, determined, not arrogant, but a tremendous amount of self confidence in their abilities. If you could combine these two guys you would probably have the best racer in history. I could go on and on about their similarities. It's almost kind of eery in a way.

Next I will go with Dario. I think the argument could be pretty easily made that the top 10 drivers listed are guys that get up on the wheel and go after it. Not Dario and it has proved a very winning strategy over the years. People call it luck, but it takes more than luck to be at the right place at the right time. Very patient driver and a guy that like no one else has this incredible ability to let the races come to him instead of forcing them, and it has worked out time and time again. But in ranking him amongst the guys on this list I can't ignore the fact that just about all of his major accomplishments have come at the failure of others. With stout competition like on this list that won't happen, and that was proven in 1999 when Montoya beat him. Dario is not a guy that is going to go out and take a win from anybody. He's a scavenger, he'll lurk in the weeds and put himself in the best position to capitalize. Those opportunities will be few and far between though competing against the likes of this list.

Dixon is probably one of the biggest underachievers in the sport. He had a run there from 2006-2009 that made him look invincible, but somewhere along the road he got complacent. I think family life killed the beast within. Since 09 he has been a very complacent driver. When I described DeFerran above almost being overly tamed by Penske, that is how I view Dixon. This highly trained assassin that had his last kill in 2009 and retired and put his sorted ways behind him. Every now and again, he gets the urge, or the hunger for what made him tick, he satisfies that craving almost at will, and locks it all away again. When he decides to dominate a race, he can't be touched and I have never seen anybody on this list dominate the way Dixon can dominate when he chooses. The problem is he doesn't choose it enough. Really well rounded driver. Ovals, road courses. He was wickedly fast in Indy Lights.

Helio? Mr. Twinkle toes. You know I like him. But honestly, take his 500's away and what are you left with?

So let's see, to put some numbers to this super series I will rank them like this:

Andretti
Zanardi
Unser
DeFerran
Montoya
Tracy
Bourdais
DaMatta
Power
Moore
Dario
Dixon
Helio

[chuck34]

Because IMO they are the top of this 'modern era'....sans Danica as I three get in for the obvious reason, I probably should have included jaque villenueve also... Perhaps I missed another someone, maybe sam for instance .... But I figured on those 6 tracks an argument could be made that any of them might win the championship

And sure Michigan or Fontana could easily have been substituted for Texas... Just as Nazareth or Milwaukee could be in place of phoenix.... Just IMO those six make up the most diverse six race super series

That's cool. I was just wondering what criteria you were using. Not saying you are wrong or anything, as I think this could be a cool little discussion. Just curious.

[SarahFan]

My problem with all that LR is that Tracy ran toe to toe with Miley and lil al... Was equally as fast yet got dominated by boutdais

How do you discount that so easily

[Loneranger]

My problem with all that LR is that Tracy ran toe to toe with Miley and lil al... Was equally as fast yet got dominated by boutdais

How do you discount that so easily

How old was he when he ran against Mikey and how old was he when he raced against Bourdais. He had all his wins and his title behind him. His best years were long behind him. Yes no? Don't even for a second try and argue that Tracy was still in his prime cause not only did Bourdais dominate him, Allmendinger did also!!!

Tracy in his prime would have been far more competitive against Bourdais.

Bourdais was dominated by Vettel in 2008 and he couldn't even beat Buemi in 2009 which lead to his firing!!! How can you discount that so easily???? If Bourdais is the driver you claim him to be, he should be sitting in Vettels Red Bull seat right now and be a multiple F1 champion. But he is not, and he's now a Dale Coyne driver!

F1 proved that Bourdais' success was a lot to do with Craig Hampson and that car coming off the truck quick. Bourdais was lost in F1 and unable to get the car to his liking. Explain that Ken!

You are comparing an almost 40 year old driver to Bourdais. No comparison.

[SarahFan]

Tracy won his championship bourdAis rookie year ... Then got dominated by him the next 4

Just sayin

[SarahFan]

PT was 35 when he won his championship

Darion from 36-39 has win 3 championships and an Indy 500

Seems you have a sliding ruler to define prime cowboy

[Loneranger]

PT was 35 when he won his championship

Darion from 36-39 has win 3 championships and an Indy 500

Seems you have a sliding ruler to define prime cowboy

Just because he won something doesn't mean that is his prime. Tracy's best racing years were about 1997-2000. That made him 29, 30, 31, 32. I have no sliding ruler.

Just cause he won his title in 2003 doesn't mean that was when he was in his prime!

All you ever do is say how I am wrong, why don't you for once in your life give me a compelling argument to explain how Buemi kicked Bourdais' ass in F1!!! If Bourdais is the God you claim him to be, explain that one. Explain why he sucked in F1 and why his teammates handed his ass to him.

[Loneranger]

Tracy won his championship bourdAis rookie year ... Then got dominated by him the next 4

Just sayin

Ya, you are just flapping your gums. You are saying nothing.

Explain Buemi and Vettel destroying Bourdais.

I'M JUST SAYIN'......

With your logic, you should hold Allmendinger in as high regard as Bourdias but you failed to include him on your opening list.

I'm just saying....

[heliocastroneves#3]

The fact that Bourdais didn't do well in F1, doesn't mean he's less better then Vettel. F1 wasn't just his thing, the same counts for Michael Andretti and Alex Zanardi. Zanardi was a superb driver in CART, but got simply dominated by Ralf Schumacher in that Williams. He was only competitive at Monza, but due a mechanical issue he also failed to score points there. Maybe if you put Vettel in an IndyCar he's also a backmarker, I would like it if Vettel ever tried IndyCar in his career anyway, but of course he has now a LONG way to go in F1 with Red Bull Racing.

[SarahFan]

Bourdias is simply statistically the most dominant racer in AOWR history...

[Loneranger]

Bourdias is simply statistically the most dominant racer in AOWR history...

So he must be at the top of your list right?

[SarahFan]

LR...

You really rank Dario 5 places below PT?

They eased head to head and were teammates in cc and Dario beat him every year .... And at an age you suggest is past prime has win 2 500s and 4 IRL championships


Must be luck!!!

[DexDexter]

The fact that Bourdais didn't do well in F1, doesn't mean he's less better then Vettel. F1 wasn't just his thing, the same counts for Michael Andretti and Alex Zanardi. Zanardi was a superb driver in CART, but got simply dominated by Ralf Schumacher in that Williams. He was only competitive at Monza, but due a mechanical issue he also failed to score points there. Maybe if you put Vettel in an IndyCar he's also a backmarker, I would like it if Vettel ever tried IndyCar in his career anyway, but of course he has now a LONG way to go in F1 with Red Bull Racing.

The fact that Bourdais didn't do well in F1 MEANS that he is not in the same league as Vettel, not even in the same book. Vettel actually won a race in a Toro Rosso. You can't be serious in comparing the two. It's also pretty evident that you don't understand a thing about racing if you think that Vettel would be slow in an Indy or any formula type car. :rolleyes:

[Marbles]

To get a proper perspective on Tracy I'll leave it to the pros:

Despite points and championships, Montoya stated in his F1 years that he considered Tracy to be his closest rival. (Drivers seldom single out favourites at the risk of offending others)

When CART was transitioning to Champcar Zanardi stated that if he was going to run a team that Tracy was the driver he wanted.

Put that on your resume.

[SarahFan]

I think across the board as a competitor Tracy is respected by his competition.... I'd even go so far that they would all
Say that he makes them better by raising the bar

[00steven]

Indy: Michael Andretti
Phoenix: Michael Andretti
Texas: Greg Moore
Cleveland: Alex Zanardi
Long Beach: Alex Zanardi
Elkhardt Lake: Dario Franchitti


Overall

1. Michael Andretti (He doesn't have 42 OW wins for nothing)
2. Alex Zanardi (Great on both types of circuits)
3. Dario Franchitti (I think his consistency would earn him a high rank)
4. Al Unser Jr.
5. Juan Pablo Montoya
6. Sebastien Bourdais
7. Greg Moore (Would run great, but run into trouble)
8. Will Power (Would rank higher if there was another street course)
9. Gil de Ferran
10. Paul Tracy (Too aggressive)
11. Scott Dixon
12. Cristiano da Matta
13. Helio Castroneves (Way to inconsistent)

[SarahFan]

so heres what I got....

"in their PRIME' i believe is the key to this whole exercise......I do realize I have assumed equally prepared cars etc, but being in your prime means driver, engineer and crew are clicking on all cylinders etc....were not talking failed F1 and nascar excursions.... were talking CART, Champcar and the IRL here....and the ultimate 6 race super series....

Indy
unser
helio
dario
mont
andretti
dixon
deferren
bourdais
moore
pt
zanardi
power
damatta

Phoenix
PT
deferren
andretti
dario
dixon
mont
bourdais
helio
unser
moore
power
zanardi
damatta

Texas
Dario
Bourdais
Montoya
dixon
unser
helio
pt
deferren
zanardi
andretti
power
moore
damatta

Elkhardt Lake
Power
zanardi
bourdais
pt
andretti
mont
dario
moore
dixon
damatta
unser
deferren
damatta

LB
bourdais
unser
pt
zanardi
power
montoya
andretti
dario
deferren
moore
dixon
helio
damatta

Cleveland
zanardi
mont
bourdais
andretti
dario
pt
power
dixon
deferren
moore
helio
unser
damatta


so I thought about how i would rank each driver each race......I decided I would pick a winner each race, then round out the top 5 (not in any specific order)and then split the last 8 drivers into 6-9 and 10-13...(again not in any order just likely top 6-9 runners

4 points for the win, 3 for a top 5 five then 2 and 1

heres how they ranked

Dario 17
bourdais 17
pt 15
andretti 15
mont 15
unser 14
zanardi 14
dixon 13
power 12
deferren 12
helio 10
moore 8
damatta 6

then I went ahead and assigned finishing positions to each race and applied 10 for a win 9, 8, etc.....here were my results

Bourdais 42
Montoya 39
Dario 38
PT 35
Andretti 34
Zanardi 28
Unser 27
Dixon 23
Power 20
Deferren 20
Helio 17
Moore 7
Damatta 1


A few notes:
Bourdais: the glowing elephant in the room for some will be Texas, the thing for me is texas is the wild card race in the mix. And Bottomline is Bourdais ran well and won on the ovals. He stuck his car on the white line at LV and dared anyone to run with him, the result was wins, he won his first ever oval race at lausitz twice at LV and once at milwaukee...he won four of the 7 ovals he competed on..

dario....the Loneranger can call him the luckiest racer AOWR has ever seen....at some point you don't win championships and 500's on luck alone.....and make no mistake to raced the high horsepower era cars in champ car and tied montoya in championship points

truth is the above are two of my least favorite racers, you can't deny in their prime they were/are dominate

Montoya: dude might just win all six races

PT: ask any racer on the list and everyone will include him as one of their main competitors....for me defines the term racer and defies the term driver

Andretti: Should he have been higher, or would he have DNFed on a twisty and dropped even further down the list

Zanardi: the split robbed him like no other racer in the group, ultimatly couldn't give him any points at INDY or Pheonix but just maybe should have topped the list

Unser: hell of racer, but in the end wasn't the greatest of qualifiers and this field is just to deep for him to overcome and be any higher

Dixon: won't compete for a win, but won't run at the back....interesting enough in my gut I put him below power and deferren, but on paper he is a bit ahead

Power: 3 seasons from now he may 5 spots up this list, or off it all together

Deferren: hell of a racer, makes my cut to be in the competition, but runs mid pack at best, probably ranked him too high at phoenix but I just remember that last lap pass at rockingham (england) and for some reason that track reminds me of phoenix.....but I also gave him no points at Elkhardt lake and he could just as easily win it

Moore: sadly we will never know, he made my list because I believe he would have gone on to great things

Damatta: for a few seasons the class of the field, just not this one

Patrick: only included her for the glaringly obvious reason which became clear early on




feel free to bash away....but please have fun doing it

[Chris R]

Really good breakdown on things, brings a bit of "science" to the guesswork :-) - it does give some perspective on the matter....

You make a good point about Little Al - but to be fair, he always qualified poorly and got good results and often against fields that were nearly as deep as this theoretical one.... Even starting deep in the field I think Al wins Indy (maybe only after Michael breakdown with 20 to go!!) and Long Beach running away and I think he is a real threat at everywhere else.....

I still say, in their prime, Michael and Al were easily better than all of the rest on this list (no disrespect intended to the other great drivers on this list)...

As for Bourdais - excellent driver - but not always effective in the face of adversity. Granted he has done ok with Coyne this year - but Wilson won with that team two seasons ago.... Bourdais stacked up lots of wins - but you have to admit that it was against a severely compromised field.... Also, you pretty much have to paint Bourdais with the same brush as daMatta... Bourdais' foray into F-1 showed he didn't have the depth of talent (mental toughness??) that some of these other drivers have.... If he had "the edge", he would have A: Realized he was going to a no win situation and stayed where he was a winner regardless of the lure of F-1. or B: He would have whipped that Toro Rosso into a frenzy and picked up some eye popping finishes even if he weren't going for the win..... No question he is an excellent driver and no question he has the best record in AOWR history - but.....

Dario is another interesting case. I think his "peak" might actually be now - much like Little Al, he is not always the fastest guy on a one lap basis - but his race craft is excellent.... The thing is, he is with one of two teams that are capable of winning the championship and he has been the best of the 5 driving for those teams for 3 or 4 years (Power is still in ascendency).... When he was faced with more diverse competition, he did not fare as well... There is no excuse for he and PT not winning more in the Kool cars..... So, again, great driver, belongs on this list - but his best shot for a W is at Texas mostly because he has raced there before....

Zanardi - His f-1 follies and his lackluster return to Champcar really taint his greatness.... When he had the best car and best team he was amazing - but he needed the mental push/support of having the great equipment to tap into his really great skills.... For obvious reasons he would be a favorite alt Laguna but I bet Michael would beat him there....

Montoya - His results have never measured up to his reputation in anything but one season of CART - I love the guy, he is an awesome racer - but he is a bit like a Columbian Robby Gordon - wasted talent in that he COULD have been one of the best ever - smart man in that he has made a career of driving, made a lot of money and seems to have a great time doing it - much like me, I do not think he hasthe drive to make himself fit enough to really get the job done..... BUT, like Ken said - could easily run the table if he was in the mood to do so....

Moore and Power - Never made it to "prime" and not there yet - enough said....

Dixon and daMatta - I agree with Ken.

deFerran - took too long to develop (too long with "b" teams??) and did not ride the crest of the wave long enough - perhaps better than I think...

PT - fast, well respected, too inconsistent - should have done better in almost every situation he has been in... I think he is in the same category as Montoya and Gordon - huge natural talent - but in the end there are other things in life (and racing) that are/were more important and took away for perfecting his skills and converting the raw talent to wins and championships.... In some ways he and Montoya are my heros from this list because they clearly have great talent but don't focus on those talents to the point they become racing machines like a Schumacher etc....

Unser - The thing with Unser is that he stacked up a lot of his wins and great finishes in less than the best equipment. He was fast and consistent and made his equipment work the best for him and, until 1995, he was mentally tough - a bad day/season did not beat him down like Bourdais. I really think that missing Indy in 1995 and then never getting a real chance to go back until it was too late ruined the man - but since his prime was before then, Al is the man as far as I am concerned.... He was as good as you get....

Andretti - ok, he was faster than Al. He was often fast in equipment that was not the very best (not bad - just not Target/Reynard/Honda good)... Problem is, he suffered from occasional brain fade (Safety truck at Toronto??) and seemed to be hard on equipment.... Despite the much panned F1 experience, the fact of the matter is he had next to no testing and by the time he actually left he had gotten up to speed (with Senna as a teammate!!) - I think he would have done all right if he had stuck it out..... BUT his heart really wasn't in it..... Michael would win a few of these races - just not sure which one....

So, in the final analysis - I think Little Al and Michael are the ultimate drivers of their generation (i.e. the era immediately before and after "the Split") and in their prime, in equal equipment, they could easily handle this very talented field...

[Loneranger]

Couple random thoughts from the two last posts.....

First, I don't think anybody here gives DeFerran enough respect. For Chris R to say he took to long to develop is just plain wrong. I want you all to think about this for just a second....in 1995, a season that included Villeneuve, Unser Jr., Andretti, Rahal, Gordon, Tracy, Pruett, Emmo, Vasser, and dominant teams like Penske, N/H, Walker, Rahal/Hogan, Team Green, and Ganassi........Gil, coming from a season of F3000, his first time racing in America, first time on these tracks, and first time in the series, racing for a tiny little outfit called Hall Racing not only managed a pole position at Cleveland, also won in his rookie season at Laguna. He proved that it was no accident and followed that up in only his second season, driving for the same small little outfit, with even tougher competition with the addition of Zanardi and Moore, and a now emerged Ganassi racing, not only put it on the podium four times, took a pole in Long Beach, he won again, this time in Cleveland in what was arguably one of the best ever races to date, and finished sixth in the championship!!!

In only his third season, driving for Walker, one of his best seasons to date if you watched and followed and look closer than what the stats tell you, in only his third season damn near won the championship! Won it driving for Walker. A single team outfit, no team mate. Just a man and a mission. The same was true at Hall.

In only his sixth season, he was champion in his seventh season was a double champion! Took Dario 12 seasons, took Al Jr 9 seasons, and 13 to win his second, took Michael 9 seasons, took Tracy 13!

DeFerran competed in an era that had some of the most stout competition, the most competitive teams, and the most diverse set of manufacturers competing. Not only that, he can make the claim as the FASTEST man to have ever raced in the series. Nobody else can make that claim.

2000 CART Fontana - Gil de Ferran's Closed Course Record - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF8GTL0_rMA)

[Chris R]

Couple random thoughts from the two last posts.....

First, I don't think anybody here gives DeFerran enough respect. For Chris R to say he took to long to develop is just plain wrong. I want you all to think about this for just a second....in 1995, a season that included Villeneuve, Unser Jr., Andretti, Rahal, Gordon, Tracy, Pruett, Emmo, Vasser, and dominant teams like Penske, N/H, Walker, Rahal/Hogan, Team Green, and Ganassi........Gil, coming from a season of F3000, his first time racing in America, first time on these tracks, and first time in the series, racing for a tiny little outfit called Hall Racing not only managed a pole position at Cleveland, also won in his rookie season at Laguna. He proved that it was no accident and followed that up in only his second season, driving for the same small little outfit, with even tougher competition with the addition of Zanardi and Moore, and a now emerged Ganassi racing, not only put it on the podium four times, took a pole in Long Beach, he won again, this time in Cleveland in what was arguably one of the best ever races to date, and finished sixth in the championship!!!

In only his third season, driving for Walker, one of his best seasons to date if you watched and followed and look closer than what the stats tell you, in only his third season damn near won the championship! Won it driving for Walker. A single team outfit, no team mate. Just a man and a mission. The same was true at Hall.

In only his sixth season, he was champion in his seventh season was a double champion! Took Dario 12 seasons, took Al Jr 9 seasons, and 13 to win his second, took Michael 9 seasons, took Tracy 13!

DeFerran competed in an era that had some of the most stout competition, the most competitive teams, and the most diverse set of manufacturers competing. Not only that, he can make the claim as the FASTEST man to have ever raced in the series. Nobody else can make that claim.

2000 CART Fontana - Gil de Ferran's Closed Course Record - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF8GTL0_rMA)

Fair enough - but you also make the same point I did more or less - his teams sort of hindered him from really "doing a Zanardi" and really exploding onto the scene..... I do not mean to dis his talent or skills - only to say it is hard to rank him... I also think, if he had the opportunity to stay in Champcar or if the IRL was more balanced at the time, he would have had a longer career that would have made his place in AOWR history much clearer.....

The measure for development for a driver after Villeneuve and Zanardi went from 5-6 years to one or two seasons - now if you don't perform immediately you are not necessarily given the chance to develop properly and have your racecraft and raw talent coalesce in the prime of your career.....

All that being said - Gil is a great driver - but I still think he is duking it out for 3rd at best with Zanardi, Montoya and maybe Dario.....

[Loneranger]

And as for Bourdais.....

Just think about this for a moment......in 2003 his rookie season and 2004, there were only two series champions in the field that he raced against, Tracy and Vasser and keep in mind Vasser was driving for American Spirit/PKV. In 2005 DaMatta returned driving for PKV, and in 2007 there was ONLY Tracy as a previous champion. In 2005, 2006, 2007 Forsythe was the only other championship winning team in the series that N/H and Bourdais had to compete against. If you removed Tracy and Vasser, the only other winning drivers leading into 2004 that were in the field were Carpentier with 4 previous wins and Junky with 5 previous wins.

Don't even get me started on the spec series aspect.

Ken can go on and on about Bourdais' winning percentage, but you cannot escape the fact that Bourdais had no competition to compete against! There simply wasn't any and that is a fact!

[SarahFan]

During a 5 year stretch of which was clearly bourdais 'prime' he racked up 73 starts... 31 wins 31 poles 44 podiums and 4 championships...

Here's a list of racers he competed against during that stretch

PT
Bruno
Carpantier
Jourdain jr
Vasser
RHR
Servia
Herta
Papis
Pagenued
Moreno
Briscoe
Dornboos
Rahal
Salo
Tagliani
Fernandez
Gidley
Guy smith
Allmen dinger
Wilson
Power
Flock
Valiente
Dalziel
Damatta
Ranger
Buddy rice
Dan Clarke

You can't discount him becuase he didn't race against the legends.... He beat some damn fine racers in the most dominating 5 year stretch AOWR has ever seen

[Loneranger]

Yes I can discount him Ken! He had no competition!!! Let's take Real and put them in your local soccer league and we can then rave about how amazing and dominant a soccer team they are. Champions for the next 10 years. The best team ever. BS! He raced against nobody.

How many series champions did he race against in his career? How many F1 champions did he race against in his career? How many former winners did he race against in his career? How many championship teams did he race against in his career? How many winning teams did he race against in his career?

The man dominated in an era that saw no competition. Damn fine racers or not!

[Loneranger]

You can't discount him becuase he didn't race against the legends.... He beat some damn fine racers in the most dominating 5 year stretch AOWR has ever seen

So you must hold Buzz Calkins, Hornish, and Buddy Lazier in pretty high regard also then!

[SarahFan]

Don't make me remind you that you thought VS was going to be great for the series ...

.1

[Loneranger]

Don't make me remind you that you thought VS was going to be great for the series ...

.1

You can remind me. It didn't turn out how I was expecting.

[SarahFan]

Or just ANOTHER example of you not having a F'en clue!!!

[FIAT1]

Bordais is better racer then 3/4 of the today line up including Dario. He raced spec series with much faster and much more challenging cars then today Indycar. He is doing great job with mediocre team. With proper team and good car he would be on top and I hope he gets competitive ride.

[ShiftingGears]

How is Tracy better than Bourdais? Was he ever as consistent? Or are we going to blame the machinery again, or say that in his prime Tracy would be so much more consistent and dominate Bourdais?

[garyshell]

How is Tracy better than Bourdais? Was he ever as consistent? Or are we going to blame the machinery again, or say that in his prime Tracy would be so much more consistent and dominate Bourdais?

Yes, as a matter of fact I will blame the equipment. The first year Seabass won a championship, was the first year Forsythe had no sponsor and clearly Newman Hass had better equipment. And the disparity continued on throughout the rest of their time together.

Put them on the same team and I think Seabass would have been reduced to a whimpering puppy. Tracy was able to get in his head at will, not unlike Dennis Rodman in the NBA.

Gary

[Ranger]

Yes, as a matter of fact I will blame the equipment. The first year Seabass won a championship, was the first year Forsythe had no sponsor and clearly Newman Hass had better equipment. And the disparity continued on throughout the rest of their time together.

Put them on the same team and I think Seabass would have been reduced to a whimpering puppy. Tracy was able to get in his head at will, not unlike Dennis Rodman in the NBA.

Gary

Facts:

Full seasons where Bourdais was beaten by his team-mate: 1/5
2003 - Bruno Junquiera (rookie year)

Full seasons where Tracy was beaten by his team-mate(s): 11/15
1993 - Emerson Fittipaldi
1994 - Emerson Fittipaldi, Al Unser Jr.
1995 - Michael Andretti
1996 - Al Unser Jr.
1998 - Dario Franchitti
1999 - Dario Franchitti
2001 - Dario Franchitti
2002 - Dario Franchitti
2004 - Patrick Carpentier
2006 - AJ Allmendinger
2007 - Oriol Servia

Opinions:

There was nothing wrong with Tracy's pace in most of those seasons (otherwise he wouldn't have maintained a career) but he never had the consistency.

Despite his experience, he never managed to reign in the exorbitant number of (usually stupid) collisions that cost him so many points, victories and maybe even championships (especially 1993). Nonetheless he was good to watch.

Bourdais, despite blowing his lid outside of the car numerous times, was always consistent in races. Admittedly he did not have the calibre of team-mates that Tracy did, but I extremely doubt he would suddenly start crashing out of every second race if he did, which is what you seem to imply.

I don't believe for a second that Tracy would beat Bourdais in the same car over a season.

[SarahFan]

PT was so far in his head he rattled off 31 wins and four straight championships!!!

[FIAT1]

Dream scenario to resolve opinions would be PT and SB teamates? Oh no! Humor aside that would probably be best thing for Indycar and the fans.

[Chris R]

Dream scenario to resolve opinions would be PT and SB teamates? Oh no! Humor aside that would probably be best thing for Indycar and the fans.


problem is Tracy and Bourdais (and even Franchitti and Helio) are the past - Indycar needs Marco and Graham to both get on with winning and develop a rivalry. They need Will Power to flip a few more birds (show some personality) and maybe Hinch or Hildebrand to step it up and take the fight to Will.... They need Simona to turn her promise into truly competitive drives and some proper wins.... I like racing history as much (and probably a lot more) than many and I love this discussion about Tracy vs. Bourdais - but really we need new version of this that the driver have a real chance to showcase their rivalry... (I am not bashing your suggestion, I think it would be cool)- just saying that Indycar needs to move forward -the sad truth is nobody knows who Seabass and PT are - that needs to change starting now with the newest drivers....

[SarahFan]

Chris... Indycar needs both PT v SB AND GR v MA... And alot more

[garyshell]

PT was so far in his head he rattled off 31 wins and four straight championships!!!

Perhaps I should have been more limited in the scope of my reply. When he had the opportunity PT, was able to get in his head. But the disparity in equipment/teams didn't allow that to happen enough to make a dent in the run to 4 championships. Newman Haas was the class of the field hands down. They had all the right people and all the right bits. Without those I don't think Seabass would have been anywhere near as dominant. He didn't show any sort of brilliance in F1, in fact he look mediocre at best. To me, Newman Haas won four championships, Seabass was their driver. I still think had Tracy been on the same team the outcome would have been VERY different.

Gary

[garyshell]

Chris... Indycar needs both PT v SB AND GR v MA... And alot more

Absofreakin' loutely! And a touch of Zanardi or Montoya to boot.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Of coarse PT was with the same team and driving the same car(s) he won his championship with

[Chris R]

Absofreakin' loutely! And a touch of Zanardi or Montoya to boot.

Gary

Gary and Ken, you guys are absolutely right - I am just wanting those things out of the next generation - I'd gladly take PT vs. Seabass today - but it'll only be good for a season or two at most if it were to happen.... We need these young up and coming guys to develop personalities and rivalries (and have the talent!!) that can be part of Indycar for 10-15 years - actually of all the "old timers" in the sport now, only Helio, PT, & Dixon have been truly loyal to Indycar (and CART/Champcar before that) from the beginning of their "big time" careers... We need real personality and talent to stick with the series for the long haul (and vice versa - the series needs to be a place a driver aspires to come and stay)....

[garyshell]

Of coarse PT was with the same team and driving the same car(s) he won his championship with

When it was fully funded by tobacco money. When that left the team lost a lot in people and in technical prowess.

Gary