How do you see the future of rally?

[Maui J.]

Toni is of course right in that banning cigarette advertisement has hit motorsports very hard. Healthnazism sucks :)

Energy Drinks have taken over where Tobacco once was as Motorsport sponsorship is concerned.
Both are similar in the fact that they are cheap to make and so have massive profit margins.

It's all in the marketing, Red Bull is king in that department, 2x F1 Teams plus a presence in almost every other motor racing or adrenaline sport.

One day I can see these being banned as well. Research in this country has stated Energy Drinks provide no therapeutic benefit and are associated with risks for serious adverse health effects. These include liver damage, kidney failure, respiratory disorders, agitation, confusion, nausea, vomiting, heart failure, etc.

No connection to cancer.... yet.

I guess it's still early days, and Energy Drinks are still on their honeymoon period and making squillions of $$$. Like smoking it will take a generation or more before the masses wake up and see that they are exchanging their money for a can of water, sugar and toxins.

[smokin'joe]

Too long with too complicated and way too expensive cars lead to loss of manufacturers and then loss of other sponsors. That because general interest on rallying was lost because only 2 manufacturers. I blame big teams and FIA that they allowed (and still to some extent allow) rallycars be too expensive and boring. Less wings, less suspension travel etc would make it easier for new reams to enter + make watching it more interesting.


get rid of the overly active controls in a rallycar, and bring back centre console mounted gear changes.

it would have been nice to see if Sebastian Loeb is actually a freak, or lucky to have had very easy cars to drive quickly, without pesky competition from many different Marques, not just on or two competitive ones.

[Mirek]

get rid of the overly active controls in a rallycar, and bring back centre console mounted gear changes.

it would have been nice to see if Sebastian Loeb is actually a freak, or lucky to have had very easy cars to drive quickly, without pesky competition from many different Marques, not just on or two competitive ones.

Which active controls are You talking about? There are almost none in new WRC cars. Almost everything in new cars is purely mechanical - differentials, gearbox, throttle... You can hardly make cars simpler than they are now.

[dimviii]

get rid of the overly active controls in a rallycar, and bring back centre console mounted gear changes.

it would have been nice to see if Sebastian Loeb is actually a freak, or lucky to have had very easy cars to drive quickly, without pesky competition from many different Marques, not just on or two competitive ones.

what are you smoking Joe?

[OldF]

One sponsor I can’t recall seeing for a while in rallying is Repsol. Repsol was always where Sainz was.

[Gregor-y]

A pity Prodrive couldn't entice them to back Sordo, then. Where is Sainz these days? Maybe Repsol will turn up on the Polo.

[dimviii]

A pity Prodrive couldn't entice them to back Sordo, then. Where is Sainz these days? Maybe Repsol will turn up on the Polo.

vw is partner with castrol.

[Plan9]

A pity Prodrive couldn't entice them to back Sordo, then. Where is Sainz these days? Maybe Repsol will turn up on the Polo.

Mini have Castrol as well as VW. It is unbelievable that these cars cannot get more sponsorship; The little green pig has more decals on it than the red ones. Also the donor Countryman is the ultimate in niche cars at the moment (also very good price residuals).

The brand I miss is BBS Wheels. You do not see them as much in the WRC anymore.

[Plan9]

Energy Drinks have taken over where Tobacco once was as Motorsport sponsorship is concerned.
Both are similar in the fact that they are cheap to make and so have massive profit margins.

It's all in the marketing, Red Bull is king in that department, 2x F1 Teams plus a presence in almost every other motor racing or adrenaline sport.

One day I can see these being banned as well. Research in this country has stated Energy Drinks provide no therapeutic benefit and are associated with risks for serious adverse health effects. These include liver damage, kidney failure, respiratory disorders, agitation, confusion, nausea, vomiting, heart failure, etc.

No connection to cancer.... yet.

I guess it's still early days, and Energy Drinks are still on their honeymoon period and making squillions of $$$. Like smoking it will take a generation or more before the masses wake up and see that they are exchanging their money for a can of water, sugar and toxins.

+10. I dread the day when the food police and green lovey doveys try to save us from the taurine and caffine cans. You can just bet people will start hording cans of Monster under their beds and have a black market for head rushes.

For health warnings: makes it sound like energy drinks are being described as having the same health effects as crack.

Back to rally; I am disappointed that Rockstar and Monster haven't done more with WRC (ie have branding on a works car). There is still enough of an audience to make it worthwhile I feel. The GFC does not do us any favors however.

[tfp]

The brand I miss is BBS Wheels. You do not see them as much in the WRC anymore.

Aaah...
Subaru Impreza 22B-STi (http://dayerses.com/subaru-impreza-22b-sti.html)

Those were the days!

[ToughMac]

A pity Prodrive couldn't entice them to back Sordo, then. Where is Sainz these days? Maybe Repsol will turn up on the Polo.

Or even turn up with Toyota if those rumours are indeed true. Repsol might have been a personal sponsor of Sainz but they were principle sponsor for TTE for a number of years in the late 80's to mid 90's.

[Maui J.]

+10. I dread the day when the food police and green lovey doveys try to save us from the taurine and caffine cans. You can just bet people will start hording cans of Monster under their beds and have a black market for head rushes.

For health warnings: makes it sound like energy drinks are being described as having the same health effects as crack.

Back to rally; I am disappointed that Rockstar and Monster haven't done more with WRC (ie have branding on a works car). There is still enough of an audience to make it worthwhile I feel. The GFC does not do us any favors however.

I don't think we are on the same playing field Plan9 (from Outer Space). You won't see me buying that crap in a can. Red Bull, Monster, Go Fast etc can spend as much as they want in sponsoring rallying. The more sponsorship the better for the wealth of the sport, but you wont find me spending a cent on their product.

I guess I'm in a minority when it comes to buying these products. Seems like the whole world will fall asleep if they don't have their daily dosage/s.

It's a little like smoking, once you're hooked it hard to stop. Brand advertising is all about getting the converted to swap to their product. Picking up additional new 'addicts' to their brand is a bonus.

So Plan9, the next time you go to the shop, buy 2 cans...feel free to drink my recommended daily intake. Or drink one and hide the other one under your bed.

[Plan9]

Lol I don't drink them often myself. 2 cans would be too much by anyone's standard. People over a certain age do not get them. You know you are the first person to guess the Ed Wood connection....

[Tomi]

The more sponsorship the better for the wealth of the sport, but you wont find me spending a cent on their product.
Agree, many sports rely on theese "energy crap", one other thing that amuses is the mercendise business, are people really so carried away from reality that they dont understand that they should be paid to wear commercials not the other way around.

[tfp]

I don't think we are on the same playing field Plan9 (from Outer Space). You won't see me buying that crap in a can. Red Bull, Monster, Go Fast etc can spend as much as they want in sponsoring rallying. The more sponsorship the better for the wealth of the sport, but you wont find me spending a cent on their product.

I guess I'm in a minority when it comes to buying these products. Seems like the whole world will fall asleep if they don't have their daily dosage/s.

It's a little like smoking, once you're hooked it hard to stop. Brand advertising is all about getting the converted to swap to their product. Picking up additional new 'addicts' to their brand is a bonus.

So Plan9, the next time you go to the shop, buy 2 cans...feel free to drink my recommended daily intake. Or drink one and hide the other one under your bed.

A bit harsh! After all, most people drink coffee and whie it may not be as bad, it still probably doesnt do you much good.

The trouble with the energy drink corporations and sponsership, most of the firms that throw their money around (red bull, monster etc) there are many other drinks that do the same job, but cost less than half the price!

Now thats what you call turd in a can ;)

[Mitch555]

Future of rally outside of Europe is looking very scary and could fall apart in 10 years, maybe sooner.

FIA has once again failed to make a cost effective formula for the creation of 4wd cars- Argentina is probably the closest at the moment apart from their engine rule. The Evo is probably going to be stopped, leaving the WRX STI the only reasonable 4wd car affordable to be built. S2000 has failed in a way. Still way too expensive, too complicated and not relevant enough. It certainly wasn't the answer. The move to 1.6 Turbo S2000 was a decent move, but again, impossible for joe down the road to make one. The Evo and WRX STI form the backbone of most national championships outside of Europe. They are the pinnacle car of the sport for most nations (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Japan and China to name a few), and these are about to die, not good.

On the other hand, take a look at current homologation on FIA. It is a freaking horror show for anyone outside of Europe. Notice that the big Japanese and Korean manufacturers Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia are all practically absent from 2wd. Only ones there are Honda, Proton and Suzuki and even then, they are barely there.

So what can those outside of Europe do apart from import very expensive 2wd machines which in some cases are more expensive than a 5 year old Group N 4WD, and which are no where near suited to conditions of the Asia Pacific and Americas. It is ludicrous.

The writing for this region has been on the wall for a good 15 years. The move away from Group A I believe has been a bad move. Essentially anyone with a little bit of cash could convert their road car into a group N rally car, add a bit more and you had a full blown Group A international beater, dangerous in the hands of local drivers who could have a crack at running near the top level. Manufacturers through Group A were also encouraged to build the road going version. Look at the car market now, and the resurgence of hot hatches.

Since 1997, we've had the WRC class which is just way too expensive, with N4 the only competing ground for locals outside of Europe. 2WD wise, we've had the A7 Kit Cars, remarkably nearly all were European, the S1600 class... oh wait mostly European (only Suzuki, Fiesta and arguably the Corsa available in overseas markets, only the Suzukis in Asia), and now we move to Group R which again are geared for European cars.

Any lower class in rallying, below WRC has never been relevant to those outside of Europe, with the only category working being Group N4/PWRC. Hardly any 2WDs have homologation from Japan, Korea and China and none from the US-built market, only the Fiesta which arguably is European. The FIA has failed to come up with any formula what so ever to combat this issue, and if they don't address it, or come up with a way to make Group R drastically cheaper and more appealing to non-European manufacturers, we will be seeing the collapse of competitive national series outside of the European market. Once again, a classic case of FIA looking after their own region.

What would I do to fix it? Geez, look at Argentina, their model is nearly smack on, as was the old Group A/N model. A compromise between these two models for 4WD cars would see some interesting cars built, and make competitive rallying more open to manufacturers. 2WD wise, a lot needs to be done with the homologation process. It is obviously prohibitive to those outside of Europe. It also needs to address the fact that a lot of manufacturers from the Asia Pacific and North America don't have the performance behind them, so there also needs to be some kind of equaliser to encourage the building of the easily accessible 2WD.

Finally, homologation rules need to change so a models homologation lasts longer. We now see the Evo 8 out at the end of the year, and most Subarus up to N12 and the Evo 9 gone at the end of 2014. By then, we'll really be in strife in areas outside of Europe, especially with the possible discontinuation of the Evo.

So is the future of rally good? No way. The FIA continues to look after Europe but no where else with its vehicle rules. That is what will break the sport apart, event at national championship level.

[Mirek]

2000 has failed in a way. Still way too expensive, too complicated and not relevant enough. It certainly wasn't the answer.

S2000 is the most successful purpose-build formula of all times in rallying with some 300-350 cars built. It wasn't born in Europe but South Africa where it still works great. Why it didn't get elsewhere is another question but the mistake is not in the formula itself.

In no way it can be called too complicated. What particularly do You find complicated? Engine is simple production based one with 4-flaps, mechanical throttle, normal indirect injection, gearbox is simple mechanical sequential, diffs are stupid LSD, centre one even isn't present in most of the cars. Suspension is stupid McPhreson with just better dampers. Rear axle release is made by simple clutch. There is no hi-tech in S2000. Can You be specific what do You find so complicated there?


The move to 1.6 Turbo S2000 was a decent move, but again, impossible for joe down the road to make one.

Disagree with this. Here You contradict You previous stance. Move to 1.6T was big mistake. It made cars which are almost same with S2000 much more expensive with little gain in performance. That could have been done in way cheaper way by much simpler engine using larger restrictor. DI special-built engine is in no way simple and less complicated thing You ask for.


The Evo and WRX STI form the backbone of most national championships outside of Europe. They are the pinnacle car of the sport for most nations (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Japan and China to name a few), and these are about to die, not good.

That's more a question of general development in automobile market and politics. Years a go it was cool to make fast cars. Now it's cool to make so called green cars. With new emission standards and the general situation on automobile market these cars die. It's nothing FIA could change anyhow.


On the other hand, take a look at current homologation on FIA. It is a freaking horror show for anyone outside of Europe. Notice that the big Japanese and Korean manufacturers Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia are all practically absent from 2wd. Only ones there are Honda, Proton and Suzuki and even then, they are barely there.

Don't You think that they are absent because they don't see any reason to be present? Homologation process is not that big horror to drive the manufacturers away if they can gain something. In fact homologations help manufacturers to have better business from motorsport and they go against privateers able to build what they want.


So what can those outside of Europe do apart from import very expensive 2wd machines which in some cases are more expensive than a 5 year old Group N 4WD, and which are no where near suited to conditions of the Asia Pacific and Americas. It is ludicrous.

It's normal that new thing able to win its class is expensive in comparison with old thing which is not able to win in its class. It's not ridiculous. These 2WD cars have very large market in Europe so they are produced. If there was some market outside Europe local manufacturers would sure produce cars for it.


The writing for this region has been on the wall for a good 15 years. The move away from Group A I believe has been a bad move. Essentially anyone with a little bit of cash could convert their road car into a group N rally car, add a bit more and you had a full blown Group A international beater, dangerous in the hands of local drivers who could have a crack at running near the top level. Manufacturers through Group A were also encouraged to build the road going version. Look at the car market now, and the resurgence of hot hatches.

You are changing cause and consequence here. The gr.A died because manufacturers were no longer interested in building road going rally cars not vice versa. Manufacturers wanted to leave gr.A away and to take WRC way instead. For them building few special-purpose mahines is way less expensive and brings same benefits compared to spending billions in development, production, sale facilities, training of stuff, after-sale service etc. To produce a stock car is incredibly huge process compared to any racing activity. Especially now when low-emissions rule the world the new gr.A is complete utopia.


Since 1997, we've had the WRC class which is just way too expensive, with N4 the only competing ground for locals outside of Europe. 2WD wise, we've had the A7 Kit Cars, remarkably nearly all were European, the S1600 class... oh wait mostly European (only Suzuki, Fiesta and arguably the Corsa available in overseas markets, only the Suzukis in Asia), and now we move to Group R which again are geared for European cars.

WRC was in fact less expensive but for manufacturers not for privateers. That's the problem of interests. Manufacturers wants something different than privateers but it's manufacturers who rules the system so it happened like that. But even WRC was doing well among privateers until it was banned from regional championships. That was the biggest mistake from FIA in last years.


Any lower class in rallying, below WRC has never been relevant to those outside of Europe, with the only category working being Group N4/PWRC. Hardly any 2WDs have homologation from Japan, Korea and China and none from the US-built market, only the Fiesta which arguably is European. The FIA has failed to come up with any formula what so ever to combat this issue, and if they don't address it, or come up with a way to make Group R drastically cheaper and more appealing to non-European manufacturers, we will be seeing the collapse of competitive national series outside of the European market. Once again, a classic case of FIA looking after their own region.

Most of the Europe competes on asphalt. That itself makes the market completely different to others. Most of the manufacturers are located in Europe and together with the fact rallying has the biggest tradition in Europe it makes the most important battlefield also for manufacturers so they produce machines suitable for areas of their interest.


What would I do to fix it? Geez, look at Argentina, their model is nearly smack on, as was the old Group A/N model. A compromise between these two models for 4WD cars would see some interesting cars built, and make competitive rallying more open to manufacturers.

Argentinian way is interesting only for privateers. To use only a body from a car of manufacturer and to "fill" it with single components can never attract manufacturers (not speaking about importers, that's different case). Again a clash of interest. Argentina has no own manufacturers but in Europe there are many and those are fighting with each other for ages so the situation is different. In other areas the Argentinian way can work, I agree with that.


2WD wise, a lot needs to be done with the homologation process. It is obviously prohibitive to those outside of Europe. It also needs to address the fact that a lot of manufacturers from the Asia Pacific and North America don't have the performance behind them, so there also needs to be some kind of equaliser to encourage the building of the easily accessible 2WD.

How prohibitive the rules are? Be specific, please. What equaliser are You speaking about? Rules itself are equaliser because they are same for all. No rules say You have to make everything the top possible spec. You can always build cheaper and simpler car. Yourself You said there is no competition in 2WD outside Europe so how can You make it easier to access for manufacturer than that? You mean that to join battle of long-established manufacturers in Europe is easier than to come with a new car somewhere with no competition at all? I don't share this view. It's again a question of profit. If manufacturers can gain something from that they would do it. Probably there is very little interest of general public into rallying outside Europe (Argentina, South Africa and few other locations). Where there is public interest the market for cars exists and a lot of cars as well.


Finally, homologation rules need to change so a models homologation lasts longer. We now see the Evo 8 out at the end of the year, and most Subarus up to N12 and the Evo 9 gone at the end of 2014. By then, we'll really be in strife in areas outside of Europe, especially with the possible discontinuation of the Evo.

No need for change in this. Any manufacturer can prolong homologation as long as it wants. Watch for example Honda Civic VTi. The car is old like hell and still it is valid for FIA events.

But I would also preferred just simple rules without any homologations like in rallycross for example but its manufacturers whose interest are guarded by homolgations so they will last long...


So is the future of rally good? No way. The FIA continues to look after Europe but no where else with its vehicle rules. That is what will break the sport apart, event at national championship level.

That's quite a paranoya in my opinion. All national championships are ruled by national authorities not FIA. Those can do what they want like they did in Argentina and many other countries.

[Barreis]

Maybe he thought about prices of S2000 cars. In smaller countries national champs can not afford it.

[Coach 2]

All national championships are ruled by national authorities not FIA. Those can do what they want like they did in Argentina and many other countries.

It is often the problem lies here. The national associations are not creative enough.
FIA only adds guidelines for what should be valid for international championships. And international championships must be adapted to the cars produced at any time.

[bluuford]

Since 1997, we've had the WRC class which is just way too expensive, with N4 the only competing ground for locals outside of Europe. 2WD wise, we've had the A7 Kit Cars, remarkably nearly all were European, the S1600 class... oh wait mostly European (only Suzuki, Fiesta and arguably the Corsa available in overseas markets, only the Suzukis in Asia), and now we move to Group R which again are geared for European cars.


I have noticed that old WRC-s are pretty popular and also quite affordable on national championships (where they are allowed) by now. Was it 13 WRC-s at the start in France yeserday 11 of them are old WRC-s? For example, newest, well maintained WRC, 2008 Focus can be bought with 225 000 EUR (MM-Motorsport is selling one right now) which is nearly 20% cheaper than the best S2000 cars now. Older WRC-s much cheaper and pretty spectacular as well. So, I think that one of the future ways for local championships is indeed to use outdated cars rather than using newest cars (which homolagtions are finished). Well their maintanace costs might be worse, that is the downside. And it also brings some more variety to the start list. That might not be interesting for the sponsors who wnat to win the rally with S2000 car, but should they? Local events should be for practicing and they can go to IRC, if they want, to win with S2000. They can still show that they are fastest non WRC on their village.
Complicated, but it is nice to see Impreza WRC, C4 WRC, Mini WRC, Fiesta WRC, Focus WRC, 307 WRC, 207 WRC in one event, different sounds, styles, etc.

[Sulland]

Older WRCars are becoming cheaper but; they are hard to set up, maintain and get the best out of.

I really hope the new R5 class will look good, sound good, be challenging to drive, easy to set up and cheap to buy !!!!

[Barreis]

You can only hope. :D
In this days you didn't have to go to some M-sport to buy a car, there were tuners around to prepare it for much less money (just like M-sport when they started):
CUNICO - SCALVINI FORD ESCORT COSWORTH GR.A - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR7_UvWY4CA)
Is it possible to take a FIA homologations papers and to prepare WRC car in some tuner's workshop?

[Rally Power]

Looking closely on wrc history, apart some few exceptions, and Borehams customer policy was a huge one, rally top cars were always prepared by manus themselves or a restricted number of selected tuners. That's a normal procedure in order to get technical and economical control over their rally programmes and lets not forget these programmes happens in order to sell street cars.

In GrA days if you wanted a competitive Delta you had to go to Abarth, a winner Celica could only be supllied by TTE, the same with Prodrives Legacys and Imprezas, not to mention Ralliarts virtual exclusivity on Galants and Lancers.

Even considering that 1.6tWRC was a good move from FIA in order to regain manufectureurs interest over the main series, there are serious concerns about the sport development.

The low number of homologated cars in Gr.R it's dramatic. It's not a question of remarking the lack of asiatic manus, because even european makes seems reluctant to homologate rally cars.

We don't need manus to homologate their full range of veichules, as in Gr1 or GrA early days, but having only 15 cars from a single hand of makes reveals FIA's inhability to democratize the sport.

It's urgent to simplify Gr.R rules and promote R5 over manufactureurs, in order to get a decent N4/S2000 replacement and spread amateurs rallying choice over the world.

[AndyRAC]

You can only hope. :D
In this days you didn't have to go to some M-sport to buy a car, there were tuners around to prepare it for much less money (just like M-sport when they started):
CUNICO - SCALVINI FORD ESCORT COSWORTH GR.A - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR7_UvWY4CA)
Is it possible to take a FIA homologations papers and to prepare WRC car in some tuner's workshop?

I agree, that's my problem with the current regs. If I want a Fiesta WRC, there's only one place to buy it. Completely wrong......But they're not going to change the regs, are they? Business and making money comes before the health of the sport.

The sport isn't as attractive to Manufacturers as it once was....hence the lack of homologated cars.

[BDunnell]

I agree, that's my problem with the current regs. If I want a Fiesta WRC, there's only one place to buy it. Completely wrong......But they're not going to change the regs, are they? Business and making money comes before the health of the sport.

The sport isn't as attractive to Manufacturers as it once was....hence the lack of homologated cars.

And, as I always say, national championships in many countries where they used to be strong are now of no consequence whatsoever.

[Plan9]

+1 I agree. You can also see it in APRC. I think they were affected when people like Possum Bourne and Kenneth Eriksson could not longer enter factory world rally cars. Much less spectacular in some ways but still fun to follow.

[sollitt]

Future of rally outside of Europe is looking very scary and could fall apart in 10 years, maybe sooner. . Mitch, you've lost your way with this post.
I think you're confusing what's happened in Australia with the rest of the region where things are, and have been, quite different.

In reality Aussie shot it's bolt years ago, all it's own doing. You found the biggest rock to stand on and, in typical Aussie style, shouted to anyone within earshot that you had "the best domestic championship in the world".
On the other side of the ditch we went about our business with a wry smile knowing that you were wrong.
Believing your own press you engaged the manufacturers which disenfranchised anyone who couldn't play at that level ... which was the majority. Then, when the manufacturers had enough of being milked as the cash cow, they walked and you were left staring at empty fields.

Mirek is absolutely correct.
The FIA provide a platform for competition sanctioned by themselves. What occurs in domestic series is the domain of the individual ASNs which can choose to follow an FIA formula or do something entirely different.
The fact that few manufacturers outside of Europe homologate cars is not the fault of the FIA. The facility is there for them to do so should they feel the desire. The issue is that the countries, or regions, you speak about haven't created the environment that would entice a manufacturer to go through the process.

The fault here is at local level. And it may not necessarily be the failure to entice manufacturers to homologate through the FIA but rather the failure to recognise our differences with the European scene and tailor the sport accordingly, either within, or independant of, FIA involvement.
The S2000 was a formula which, had it been adopted as the WRC spec, could have brought more privateer involvement at the top level and encouraged manufacturers along. In my view it is an opportunity lost.

Nevertheless, in New Zealand competitors are perhaps more selective about where and how they play than previously however the sport remains strong and, with sensible management, will actually grow. The Hayden Paddon effect is certainly not doing any harm but he is the creation of a strong sport, not the reverse.

New Zealand and Australia have done themselves no favours clinging to the WRC round which, while nice to have, has exposed our sport to political machinations we could well have done without and has locked us in to an FIA mindset. That has, and always will have, it's proponents and it's detractors.

When all is said and done, the biggest threat to the sport of rallying in this country is not money, nor officialdom, nor policy. It is simply the continued access to suitable venues which becomes more and more difficult every year. If we can maintain that the sport will live as long as they continue to make cars with a wheel in each corner.

[navtheace]

I agree, that's my problem with the current regs. If I want a Fiesta WRC, there's only one place to buy it. Completely wrong......But they're not going to change the regs, are they? Business and making money comes before the health of the sport.

The sport isn't as attractive to Manufacturers as it once was....hence the lack of homologated cars.

Yep, R category cars are the way to go. Lets hope the FIA are strong now to say NO to Citroen and M Sports requests for body kitted and 4wd converted cars like S2000, World Rally Car and Regional Rally Car.

[BDunnell]

Sorry, I've only just come back to this thread, and ought earlier to have commented on a most interesting and well-thought-out post by sollitt, much of which I agree with.

A few points, though.



The fact that few manufacturers outside of Europe homologate cars is not the fault of the FIA. The facility is there for them to do so should they feel the desire. The issue is that the countries, or regions, you speak about haven't created the environment that would entice a manufacturer to go through the process.

The fault here is at local level. And it may not necessarily be the failure to entice manufacturers to homologate through the FIA but rather the failure to recognise our differences with the European scene and tailor the sport accordingly, either within, or independant of, FIA involvement.

Where, given what you say in relation to Australia, does the fault lie in relation to national championships in other countries which are also shadows of their former selves? Yes, national federations could decide to go down a route different to that followed by the WRC in terms of the cars used, but I believe this is the last thing the sport needs, for if public and media interest is to be built and maintained it is surely difficult to do so with machinery 'inferior' to that run at the top level. This, to me, is where the FIA's stewardship of the sport has gone wrong, especially in allowing costs to rise quite so much and not taking into account the effect this would have on the wider sport. The problems that have afflicted the WRC are, in my view, symptomatic of a wider malaise which includes the poor state of many national championships.



The S2000 was a formula which, had it been adopted as the WRC spec, could have brought more privateer involvement at the top level and encouraged manufacturers along. In my view it is an opportunity lost.

In mine, too, for the reasons given above.



When all is said and done, the biggest threat to the sport of rallying in this country is not money, nor officialdom, nor policy. It is simply the continued access to suitable venues which becomes more and more difficult every year. If we can maintain that the sport will live as long as they continue to make cars with a wheel in each corner.

It is a concern in the UK, too. But all of this is rather academic, surely, if there is no interest in seeing the cars run at those venues that are available, by virtue of poor entries and just a few top-level runners?

[Markf67]

Hi all
First time on here so hello to all. I was on the start of SS1 for the Severn Valley yesterday and we had no marshals throughout the stage we had just over the minimum of radio cars who doubled as marshals. This to me is the biggest threat to all Motorsport in the uk as the cost of getting to events as a volunteer marshal is expensive and without marshals you can't hold the event no matter what discipline or location

[AndyRAC]

Hi all
First time on here so hello to all. I was on the start of SS1 for the Severn Valley yesterday and we had no marshals throughout the stage we had just over the minimum of radio cars who doubled as marshals. This to me is the biggest threat to all Motorsport in the uk as the cost of getting to events as a volunteer marshal is expensive and without marshals you can't hold the event no matter what discipline or location

It surely didn't help that there was another major championship (BTRDA - Dukeries) taking place on the same day. Madness - there may have been extenuating reasons, but organisers/championships need to work together to stop this happening.

[Sulland]

Looking at the fact that we have a financial crisis, and that the power the factories have on privateers that buy or lease a WRCar from them. Then you have the fact that a privat team will have to have huge piles of money/sponsors to be able to do the whole championship.
In addition to this FIA seem to be unable to give manufacturers, teams, media, drivers and sponsors some stability the next 5 years.
All in all this gives a lot of the ansvers on why WRC seems to be on its deathbed in current format.

What role do you all see the new R5 class having in WRC in the future?

Could that class take the role of S2000 could have had, as several here means?
Would that attract more money if FIA would say that from 2015 to 2020 R5 will be top class with one re-homologation late 2016, used from 2017.

I feel stability in rules and simple cars, that a privat team could buy and still win with. More or less like IndyCar. Less power to a few manufacturers, and a more open and exiting championship!

[AndyRAC]

A question. What is the WRC for? What do the Manufacturers want to promote? Is the sport still relevant?What about new technology – hybrids, recoverable energy, etc

I’m not overly optimistic about the future; do any of the stakeholders agree on anything? Until that happens the sport is going nowhere.

[Brother John]

A question. What is the WRC for? What do the Manufacturers want to promote? Is the sport still relevant?What about new technology – hybrids, recoverable energy, etc

I’m not overly optimistic about the future; do any of the stakeholders agree on anything? Until that happens the sport is going nowhere.

So I think the same currently about the future of WRC. :-(

[BDunnell]

A question. What is the WRC for? What do the Manufacturers want to promote? Is the sport still relevant?What about new technology – hybrids, recoverable energy, etc

I’m not overly optimistic about the future; do any of the stakeholders agree on anything? Until that happens the sport is going nowhere.

A very good question. I believe there ought to be a very bright future for those forms of motorsport in which the cars being used are based on roadgoing machines, eg rallying and touring cars, for the very reason of their direct relevance to cars driven by the watching public. Following on from that, there should be scope for the testing and introduction of the new technologies you mention. What better method could there be of promoting them? The trouble is that these things are expensive, and are now, as I see it, hard to bring in because of the increasing move towards standardised parts and 'one size fits all' technical regulations. Motorsport needs to be careful to remain relevant, and, even without such technologies being introduced, I think touring car racing can survive on the basis of being entertaining. When we'll start to see hybrids and recoverable energy in touring cars given that manufacturer support is so limited these days I don't know, but I'm sure it will happen. But if rallying is no longer entertaining or interesting to watch — and I don't think it is at present — what does it have?

[BDunnell]

Looking at the fact that we have a financial crisis, and that the power the factories have on privateers that buy or lease a WRCar from them. Then you have the fact that a privat team will have to have huge piles of money/sponsors to be able to do the whole championship.
In addition to this FIA seem to be unable to give manufacturers, teams, media, drivers and sponsors some stability the next 5 years.
All in all this gives a lot of the ansvers on why WRC seems to be on its deathbed in current format.

What role do you all see the new R5 class having in WRC in the future?

Could that class take the role of S2000 could have had, as several here means?
Would that attract more money if FIA would say that from 2015 to 2020 R5 will be top class with one re-homologation late 2016, used from 2017.

I feel stability in rules and simple cars, that a privat team could buy and still win with. More or less like IndyCar. Less power to a few manufacturers, and a more open and exiting championship!

Surely what rallying needs are cars that are, in effect, the MkII Escorts of their day — available for many to buy and thus providing a lot of competitive cars. It is sad that such a thing today seems an unachievable pipedream.

[Barreis]

They want to be in F1 league, that's why it's so expensive.

[BDunnell]

They want to be in F1 league, that's why it's so expensive.

Those concerned need to wake up and see the reality, then. Otherwise I can see the top level of the sport dying a death.

[N.O.T]

First of all they need to understand that F1 and Rallying are two completely different sports...

the audience is completely different... F1 is for everyone... which is good for money.

WRC is for Alpha male wolfs... which can also be good for money if is is provided in the proper context.... but it will never reach the numbers of F1, because simply there scared little sick dogs in this world who are concerned about drivers hair styles and sexual orientations are way larger in numbers than proper people.

[BDunnell]

First of all they need to understand that F1 and Rallying are two completely different sports...

the audience is completely different... F1 is for everyone... which is good for money.

WRC is for Alpha male wolfs... which can also be good for money if is is provided in the proper context.... but it will never reach the numbers of F1, because simply there scared little sick dogs in this world who are concerned about drivers hair styles and sexual orientations are way larger in numbers than proper people.

I detect a collective yawn on the part of most forum members at reading most of this.

As for the first point, Pentti Airikkala once said that having F1 and rallying run by the same body is akin to 'football and rugby being run out of the same office'. I am beginning to wonder whether he was right.

[N.O.T]

I detect a collective yawn on the part of most forum members at reading most of this.

If i would like to be taken seriously i would not post on the interwebs...

[janvanvurpa]

LOL...

you are no match old man...

way too many shattered dreams to even bother... it saddens me a bit, but that is life... cruel for the majority.

What nonsense are you yapping about now perra

Whose dreams shattered? Yours?

well that would explain why you are always bitter and so critical of others---simple transference of your failures, blaming the rest of the world for your crushed dreams.
Do all Greeks do that? Is that why your entire country seems to be in such horrible shape?

If in your feverish mind you intended to make disparaging comments about my activities in motorsport there's an convenient answer to perritas such as you:
Better a has been than a never was.


And even for a mere noise like you, I am in a some way sorry that your life is so empty, so hopeless that you have to pour your misery and rage out here in 99.79% of every post.

[N.O.T]

nice confirmation...

thank you.

[BDunnell]

This was an interesting discussion before one particular post.

[N.O.T]

This was an interesting discussion before one particular post.

I agree...

[ShiftingGears]

I detect a collective yawn on the part of most forum members at reading most of this.

As for the first point, Pentti Airikkala once said that having F1 and rallying run by the same body is akin to 'football and rugby being run out of the same office'. I am beginning to wonder whether he was right.

Interesting perspective. Never thought about it that way before.

[AndyRAC]

As for the first point, Pentti Airikkala once said that having F1 and rallying run by the same body is akin to 'football and rugby being run out of the same office'. I am beginning to wonder whether he was right.

Pentti, as ever, spoke a lot of sense and I’d say he had a point. However, what I would say is that during the Mosley era, F1 grew massively, and all the other series at some point, whithered – all to the benefit of F1. This was not a coincidence.

Todt says he wants to turn around the WRC, I’m inclined to believe him, and he was brought back a World Championship for Sportscars, so he’s still in credit.
While the FiA get a lot of critiscism, and rightly so, the Manufacturers aren’t innocent either. It’s mainly down to them were the WRC has ended – down a blind alley.

[N.O.T]

Why doesn't the FIA allow a representative from each manufacturer and 2-3 representatives from the drivers into the commision ?? They are the ones directly involved and risk their money and lives...

instead we have 60 and 70 year old people with 3rd age crisis trying to do a very important job...

their place is in an old peoples home not any kind of committee...

[Sulland]

First of all they need to understand that F1 and Rallying are two completely different sports...

the audience is completely different... F1 is for everyone... which is good for money.

WRC is for Alpha male wolfs... which can also be good for money if is is provided in the proper context.... but it will never reach the numbers of F1, because simply there scared little sick dogs in this world who are concerned about drivers hair styles and sexual orientations are way larger in numbers than proper people.

Animals aside....
This is where the promotor should have come into the picture. But the ones that has been up till now has not been able to renew WRC, and by that sell it to a larger audience than us petrolheads.
Use of internet and TV together are keywords in what has to be done.
there are endless opportunities in the streaming world, and with all the data they can collect from teams and cars, with double-picture technology and so on.

In my opinion internet services could be done in-house in FIA, and reuse technology for all FIA series.
TV is harder, and need to be in-sourced from a production company.

FIA need to start thinking internet use, and not just TV - those two need to be working together!

[janvanvurpa]

While the FiA get a lot of critiscism, and rightly so, the Manufacturers aren’t innocent either. It’s mainly down to them were the WRC has ended – down a blind alley.

Or more precisely, the principles running their rally teams, one in particular that obviously intended to imitate the "own the media rights" crap from F1 side, which meant change everything to make it "easier" for TV :rolleyes:

[rallyfiend]

Why doesn't the FIA allow a representative from each manufacturer and 2-3 representatives from the drivers into the commision ?? They are the ones directly involved and risk their money and lives...

instead we have 60 and 70 year old people with 3rd age crisis trying to do a very important job...

their place is in an old peoples home not any kind of committee...

They do.

There is a representative of each manufacturer, plus Rally Organisers etc etc.

I renew my question to you of a week ago - who do you think is on the Commission? You make these ridiculous statements but you actually have no idea what you're prattling on about.

Again - who are these vague characters of people you're accusing to be on the Commission?

[N.O.T]

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/governance/Documents/fia-sport-comms-wg.pdf

hope this one answers your question...

nice assortment of failures in their prime trying to make it during their sunset of their careers and lifes...

where is the manufacturer representative and the drivers one?

[rallyfiend]

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/governance/Documents/fia-sport-comms-wg.pdf

hope this one answers your question...

nice assortment of failures in their prime trying to make it during their sunset of their careers and lifes...


where is the manufacturer representative and the drivers one?


I'm sure you're very happy with yourself for finding that little document, but surely you realise that there's more people on a commission than one person? Arnad Crepin is an employee of FIA.

Ford are represented by Gerard Quinn, Citroen by Yves Matton, while Mini and VW have representatives invited but not able to vote (not full manufacturers). Malcolm Wilson also votes to represent 'teams'.

[N.O.T]

robert reid is vice president (another co-driver...LOL) and i wonder why Mouton has a saying as well...

overall there are 9 members...their names however are hard to find...

all in all the commission is doing a very bad job... and seems that those representatives of the teams are not taken seriously because every time the commisison comes with a decision they seem to be the first to voice concerns...

we need new people with new ideas not old people in their 60s and 70s...

[N.O.T]

I'm sure you're very happy with yourself for finding that little document.

yes indeed.

[A.F.F.]

One thing that bugs me, and pardon if you guys have already talked about it, is that there has not been an interesting "ladder" in rallying for years. Yes we have S2000 but most of the drivers/teams have chosen IRC with S2000. We have not lower levels with interesting machinery for young drivers. We have no lower levels for anybody, not for drivers nor manufacturers or carmakes.

Do you remember from where Skoda, Seat and Hyundai came WRC ?? The kit-cars. And their championship was organized and worked. My wish is... or was that FIA would pick up S2000 and gave it a tempting championship worth to fight for. WRC cars would be the highest level of rallying and one would go there by stepping up the ladder. IMO FIA is wasting S2000 completely.

It's easy to say there is no promoter. WRC must be made interesting and then promoters line up. But it means the whole package, not just WRC level.

[N.O.T]

One thing that bugs me, and pardon if you guys have already talked about it, is that there has not been an interesting "ladder" in rallying for years. Yes we have S2000 but most of the drivers/teams have chosen IRC with S2000. We have not lower levels with interesting machinery for young drivers. We have no lower levels for anybody, not for drivers nor manufacturers or carmakes.

Do you remember from where Skoda, Seat and Hyundai came WRC ?? The kit-cars. And their championship was organized and worked. My wish is... or was that FIA would pick up S2000 and gave it a tempting championship worth to fight for. WRC cars would be the highest level of rallying and one would go there by stepping up the ladder. IMO FIA is wasting S2000 completely.

It's easy to say there is no promoter. WRC must be made interesting and then promoters line up. But it means the whole package, not just WRC level.

I think that partially the reason is that as the technology of the kit cars improved they became very expensive so most drivers who had their eyes in the WRC as a career prefered to go straight to the big league than waste money with a lesser car....same goes for the s1600 championship and s2000s of today.

[Mirek]

In my opinion it's a bit different case. The main problem is that with any lower class you are virtually invisible in WRC. Public don't care about You no matter how fast driver You are, You are ignored in TV and You are far from top of the overall leaderboard (ask Hänninen about S2000 victories in NORF). When You go with same car into the IRC You can fight for overall victory, You can be in TV and You are more likely to be recognized by common people who doesn't know what each class means and why someone who is written in results to be 10th overall in WRC event driving Skoda Fabia must be a great driver...

[N.O.T]

In my opinion it's a bit different case. The main problem is that with any lower class you are virtually invisible in WRC. Public don't care about You no matter how fast driver You are, You are ignored in TV and You are far from top of the overall leaderboard (ask Hänninen about S2000 victories in NORF). When You go with same car into the IRC You can fight for overall victory, You can be in TV and You are more likely to be recognized by common people who doesn't know what each class means and why someone who is written in results to be 10th overall in WRC event driving Skoda Fabia must be a great driver...

that is also a factor and i think the main reason sponsors will prefer someone doing IRC and not WRC...

Again it is FIAs fault since they do not give the lesser classes of the WRC any respect, so it is normal now that the PWRC and the SWRC are filled with tourists with no future, present and past.

for example why does the power stage only counts for the WRC ? they should have points awarded in the PWRC and SWRC class as well...small change you might say but if you add 100 more of small changes you can make a difference.

[bluuford]

that is also a factor and i think the main reason sponsors will prefer someone doing IRC and not WRC...

Again it is FIAs fault since they do not give the lesser classes of the WRC any respect, so it is normal now that the PWRC and the SWRC are filled with tourists with no future, present and past.

for example why does the power stage only counts for the WRC ? they should have points awarded in the PWRC and SWRC class as well...small change you might say but if you add 100 more of small changes you can make a difference.

They are giving powerstage points to all class winners in Estonian Championship since the beginning of 2012. That is a great idea. I have never seen so many drivers driving so fast on the last stage of the rally :-) It is very spectacular for the spectators and motivating for drivers as well. Probably good for TV and sponsors as well :-)

[N.O.T]

They are giving powerstage points to all class winners in Estonian Championship since the beginning of 2012. That is a great idea. I have never seen so many drivers driving so fast on the last stage of the rally :-) It is very spectacular for the spectators and motivating for drivers as well. Probably good for TV and sponsors as well :-)

yes it is the normal thing to do... go tell that to the failures of the WRC commission...

[A.F.F.]

If FIA wanted maximum from rallying, they would create an interesting lower level, from which the best drivers climb to the top and to keep it interesting for the teams, FIA would make a deal with the promoter that they get certain amount of visibility each rally. Personally, I don't think it wouldn't be a bad bargain. The championship in the lower level could be more interesting than in WRC ;)

Anyway, somehow they have got it work for F1 and the minions....

[tfp]

How about a powerstage at the end of each leg? And live streaming, free to watch from wrc.com :)
If only...At the minute I'd be happy with split times that actually loaded up on time....

[Sulland]

FIA need to act, and have a long term plan to act from. Today they are firefighters, and are only thinking short term.

Come with signals NOW on what they plan to use class R5 for. It is the natural choice for top model in all national and regional championships.
S2000 NA, the class they killed, only in National series.

Think about a super licence for international rally. So we avoid all gentleman drivers in a WRCar, and bad accidents due to lack of skills.

FIA:Make a plan for the next 10 years, with a review after 5 years - and stick to it! Give stability to manufacturers, teams and drivers, so they dont use a lot of money to develop or buy a car that is obsolete and worth close to zero in a couple of years!

[A FONDO]

How about a powerstage at the end of each leg? And live streaming, free to watch from wrc.com :)
If only...At the minute I'd be happy with split times that actually loaded up on time....

wrc.com is so pity that Fred Flintstone will mock on it! Every time when there's a rally in the end of the world I have to go through several other sites with timezones, daylight saving/no saving winter/summer etc. In the meantime when I open formula1.com I look right and just click on the button "convert to my time" and everything is sorted up! Such small things are very important and very simple to make, but the staff prefer to moan for the money they lost from the arabs! You suck!

[janvanvurpa]

[quote]FIA need to act, and have a long term plan to act from. Today they are firefighters, and are only thinking short term.

Come with signals NOW on what they plan to use class R5 for. It is the natural choice for top model in all national and regional championships.
S2000 NA, the class they killed, only in National series.

Sounds good but one thing I can never support , or understand is a special EXTRA special vehicle spec for just some drivers...



Think about a super licence for international rally. So we avoid all gentleman drivers in a WRCar, and bad accidents due to lack of skills.


Then you only have the bad accidents due to little mistakes and brain farts..

DOH! Still bad accidents..

Or are Petter's accidents "good accidents" because he has more skill?


FIA:Make a plan for the next 10 years, with a review after 5 years - and stick to it! Give stability to manufacturers, teams and drivers, so they dont use a lot of money to develop or buy a car that is obsolete and worth close to zero in a couple of years![/quote:3b3kscs3]

See the problem I have is the thinking that infects fans who are not real competitors, maybe never was,. never will be and who don't understand how vital the driver's role is..
We have many many young, usually ignorant and often very stupid "Fans" here who say "DOOOoooooooOOOD, (you must go up and down with accent like you Norsk gutter) why it's natural that the best drivers have the best cars---it's always been that way"

Idiots don't realise I lined up occasionally same time (not really against, men samma tävling, samma dag, dom var världens bäst)
and yeah those VM riders bikes were "better", but not substantially different from mine---and mine was just as quick--- and not much different from the spec---the specification---of a B-påse somewhere..
The absolute best were still say 250cc, still weighed min xx kilos, had 5 speeds (and everybody had virtually identical gear ratios), brakes, etc etc

VM hero might, and probably did have a new tire in the morning, but I probably and often did have their tire from last week with little time on it.


It was NOT a whole HIGHER and technically superior design......like is often advocated..

And often as we have seen the last 12+ years in our little duck-pond of rally USA, the "ultimate" spec cars are so expensive, only idenpendantly wealthy types can afford to purchase or lease them, so for the Blockstranas and the trust fund "underdeprived" they buy the "best" with ZERO previous experience.......

And pay their press whores to write REAMS of press inferring they are "the best in the World".

A critical element is that local guys can compare their times to therir national best, and national best compare with VM guys,

without discounting the equipment or giving up in advance.

[BDunnell]

Why doesn't the FIA allow a representative from each manufacturer and 2-3 representatives from the drivers into the commision ?? They are the ones directly involved and risk their money and lives...

Give manufacturers or teams too much power over any motorsport series and they will ruin it.

[BDunnell]

One thing that bugs me, and pardon if you guys have already talked about it, is that there has not been an interesting "ladder" in rallying for years. Yes we have S2000 but most of the drivers/teams have chosen IRC with S2000. We have not lower levels with interesting machinery for young drivers. We have no lower levels for anybody, not for drivers nor manufacturers or carmakes.

Do you remember from where Skoda, Seat and Hyundai came WRC ?? The kit-cars. And their championship was organized and worked. My wish is... or was that FIA would pick up S2000 and gave it a tempting championship worth to fight for. WRC cars would be the highest level of rallying and one would go there by stepping up the ladder. IMO FIA is wasting S2000 completely.

It's easy to say there is no promoter. WRC must be made interesting and then promoters line up. But it means the whole package, not just WRC level.

Worse still, a part of that ladder used to be competitive national championships in which it was financially possible for teams to run the same machinery as could be found at the front of WRC events. Thus they attracted good drivers and public attention. I think it's no coincidence that rallying as a sport is at such a low current ebb when national championships are, to most, of no consequence.

[BDunnell]

Think about a super licence for international rally. So we avoid all gentleman drivers in a WRCar, and bad accidents due to lack of skills.

Who in recent years would this have excluded?

[N.O.T]

Who in recent years would this have excluded?

Nombre, oliveira, companq, villagra, barrat, pavlides, rossi and many many others

[AndyRAC]

Give manufacturers or teams too much power over any motorsport series and they will ruin it.

Which as we have seen, has happened to the WRC. What is good for the sport, and what is good for the Manufacturers aren't always the same. The Manufacturers have 'run' the sport the last 10+ years.....and look we're we are.

[rallyfiend]

Which as we have seen, has happened to the WRC. What is good for the sport, and what is good for the Manufacturers aren't always the same. The Manufacturers have 'run' the sport the last 10+ years.....and look we're we are.

Yes, where are we? 3 1/2 Manufacturers involved, 2 more likely to join in the next 2 years.

I don't blame the Manufacturers - clearly the technical specs are attractive enough. I blame the FIA for failing to allow the sport to break free of their internal political shambles and truly be allowed to grow and prosper.

[Miika]

The future? What future?

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6007/fordquinnautosport.jpg

[BDunnell]

Which as we have seen, has happened to the WRC. What is good for the sport, and what is good for the Manufacturers aren't always the same. The Manufacturers have 'run' the sport the last 10+ years.....and look we're we are.

CART is an even more classic example.

[BDunnell]

Yes, where are we? 3 1/2 Manufacturers involved, 2 more likely to join in the next 2 years.

I don't blame the Manufacturers - clearly the technical specs are attractive enough. I blame the FIA for failing to allow the sport to break free of their internal political shambles and truly be allowed to grow and prosper.

What does that mean? Who would run it? If you mean the manufacturers, this would be disastrous — the end of all hopes of making the sport affordable enough for non-works entrants to afford the top machinery, and leaving a sport prone to outright death when one or two of those manufacturers, as they always do, decide to drop out.

[Barreis]

Block was thinking..
Ken Block says World Rally Championship format hurts privateers - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100522)

[A FONDO]

What didnt you agree with here:

"The FIA is putting private drivers in a scenario that hurts private drivers. Other championships try to promote all the competitors but here they put everything in favour of the factory guys."

or its just that you are yet another one here who has posters of loeb all around his bed

[Barreis]

Maybe this idea with weight balast for last winner isn't that bad.

[N.O.T]

Block was thinking..
Ken Block says World Rally Championship format hurts privateers - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100522)

LOL...

who cares what a chinless 40 year old nobody thinks ??? Maybe we should allow drivers in the WRC to replay each corner 100 times until they get it right also like he does on those retarded drift videos for 12 year olds he produces....

[Lousada]

Maybe this idea with weight balast for last winner isn't that bad.

I heard Christiano Ronaldo has to play with a backpack full of potatoes in the semi-finals next week because he scores to much. It's not fair to amateur nobodies like us that Ronaldo gets all the attention. Of course he is the best, it's because he can commit himself 24/7 to football while the rest of us have regular jobs. Football needs more performance ballast so all the amateur losers can feel good about themselves too.

[tfp]

wrc.com is so pity that Fred Flintstone will mock on it! Every time when there's a rally in the end of the world I have to go through several other sites with timezones, daylight saving/no saving winter/summer etc. In the meantime when I open formula1.com I look right and just click on the button "convert to my time" and everything is sorted up! Such small things are very important and very simple to make, but the staff prefer to moan for the money they lost from the arabs! You suck!

^^^This.

And do they really have to have the videos using flash player? That means anyone with apple devices cant watch the videos. That is making their market much smaller considering how popular tablet computers and apple smart phones are nowadays.

I think following rallys live with wireless technology like this is the future, I have no idea why the FIA havent picked up on this.

PS I am british and I'm allowed to moan :laugh:

[tfp]

The future? What future?

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6007/fordquinnautosport.jpg

I must say I'd consider following them, the IRC looks to be on the way up thanks to Eurosport.




Maybe this idea with weight balast for last winner isn't that bad.

Hmmm not too sure about that. They had it in BTCC, "success ballast" or something.

Loeb would be carrying so much weight he wouldnt make it to the end of the stage without running out of petrol, and if Jari matti won the previous event, by the time he has rolled and lost all of the panels off the car the weight disadvantage would even itself out :s mokin:

[Cacatua]

The future of rallying and so the motorsport SHOULD start putting the foundation stones to begin to be useful in this energy revolution (silent) in which we have just entered. The times of cheap energy waste are running out and the world of transport will be severely affected. As a university professor of mine used to say, people in 40 years will speak of us as the damn *******s who left them without resources, and they will put us as an example of what not to do.
The automotive world has always had a key role in technological breakthroughs, and the world of motorsport is a great scenario to develop. Hybrid systems in the WRC should be already bound, such as Ultracaps (KERS) are in the F1.

[Barreis]

This way Loeb will have 100 wins very soon. :D

[Arganil]

Hi to all.
Reading this thread made me a little confused, because it seems that almost everybody is forgetting the past years decisions on WRC.

If I remember correctly, before Todt step in, it was Mosley who, in a not very transparent move, renew the WRC promoter contract with ICS/NOS, declining Eurosport offer to the job.

Back then British manus didn't seem to be upset with Mosley polemic choice, even if IRC was already a major success.

It was also under Mosley late leadership that the FIA and the Manus spent more than two years on unsuccesuful technical discussions about WRC regulations, providing some of the most uncompetitive seasons of the WRC history by the delay of replacement of the costly WRC 2.0L cars.

S2000 cars where then already highly competitive but manus never showed insterest to promote them to the top level of the sport.

When Todt and the new FIA team step in it was finaly possible to sort out the WRC 1.6L rules, essential to get new manus interest (as verified with Mini and VW) because WRC 1.6L is less expensive and less technical demanding than 2.0L WRC.

It was a fast and well managed process that gave rally fans the perception of a new aproach from FIA towards WRC, confirmed by Todt and Mouton desire to perserve WRC heritage.

Today's WRC promoter crises has not been so fastly managed, but Todt and his mates deserves everyone confidence that a good solution will be sorted. Let's be a little more pacient!

[makinen_fan]

Today's WRC promoter crises has not been so fastly managed, but Todt and his mates deserves everyone confidence that a good solution will be sorted. Let's be a little more pacient!

i started loosing my confidence and belief in Todt and FIA, because they were full of b******t from the beginning. They promised sorting out the situation in short time, then extended it a bit until May, and then that day passed without any news. And only then we get news about the radical change to be introduced for events paying much more, and then after a week these plans are scrapped. And just yesterday the posted an ad that the timing and mapping systems contracts are up for sale.... and at the start of the year they praised so much the effort by S1T...

so these radical moves cannot gain them any confidence. only more and more people start stopping believing in them and get frustrated

[F1boat]

If Ford leaves the series it'd likely be Citroen vs VW, not so bad, although I prefer a variety of different cars.

[Sulland]

Rally is a strange animal in the motorsport family. It is taking place over a large area, and it is hard to follow who is winning and loosing, compared to track racing where you see them at least one time a lap. In rally you have to plan your rally day as a spectator.

So as it is today, you have to do a lot yourself tô follow a whole rally, and stay updated.

For a driver Rally has to be the ulimate challenge. We see that is easier to swap from rally to racing than the other way around. So the top rally drivers are among the best drivers on the planet.

Yet FIA has made WRC into being a car and manufacturer championship seen from their point of view. This compared to focus on the driver.

If you as a sponsor have money to spend, but do not know where to go.
I do not think I would bring my money to a sport where there are 4 guys that has the tools to win, and where many talented drivers have lost before the start even with the biggest talent and budget in the world.
These things are hard to explain to sponsors and also promotors.
Also the fact that one guy is winning almost every time, does not help to brin exitememt to sponsors and build bigger audiences.

WRCar need to be simplified, and cars blueprinted as formula Ford, so That a team can buy a winning car, build a winning team and have a fair chance of winning a round, and also the championshi
These are success factors that has worked for IRC.
The balance btw manufacturers and drivers need to shift towards the drivers, oterwise WRC will die.

If FIA hits bullseye with R5, that could be the turnaround for Rally. If the price is right, the car is a drivers car, and it is so tech simple so that a private team can manage it over time.
they also need to start using opportunities in internet tecnologies to spread it out live to the world!

If that happens, WRC will grow, and the job for a promotor will be easy - but there has to be a conductor in this process, otherwise it will fail (again) !

FIA need to act soon when one of the big ones plans to go to IRC !!!!!!!

[Barreis]

They can go.

[rallyfiend]

This sounds like a big beat up anyway.

I reckon the more important question is whether Ford will be there in 2013. I wonder if there is a performance related clause in the Ford - MSport contract?

[Brother John]

Rally is a strange animal in the motorsport family. It is taking place over a large area, and it is hard to follow who is winning and loosing, compared to track racing where you see them at least one time a lap. In rally you have to plan your rally day as a spectator.

So as it is today, you have to do a lot yourself tô follow a whole rally, and stay updated.

For a driver Rally has to be the ulimate challenge. We see that is easier to swap from rally to racing than the other way around. So the top rally drivers are among the best drivers on the planet.

Yet FIA has made WRC into being a car and manufacturer championship seen from their point of view. This compared to focus on the driver.

If you as a sponsor have money to spend, but do not know where to go.
I do not think I would bring my money to a sport where there are 4 guys that has the tools to win, and where many talented drivers have lost before the start even with the biggest talent and budget in the world.
These things are hard to explain to sponsors and also promotors.
Also the fact that one guy is winning almost every time, does not help to brin exitememt to sponsors and build bigger audiences.

WRCar need to be simplified, and cars blueprinted as formula Ford, so That a team can buy a winning car, build a winning team and have a fair chance of winning a round, and also the championshi
These are success factors that has worked for IRC.
The balance btw manufacturers and drivers need to shift towards the drivers, oterwise WRC will die.

If FIA hits bullseye with R5, that could be the turnaround for Rally. If the price is right, the car is a drivers car, and it is so tech simple so that a private team can manage it over time.
they also need to start using opportunities in internet tecnologies to spread it out live to the world!

If that happens, WRC will grow, and the job for a promotor will be easy - but there has to be a conductor in this process, otherwise it will fail (again) !

FIA need to act soon when one of the big ones plans to go to IRC !!!!!!!

@ SULLAND. http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/icons/icon14.png The best post about the future of WRC that I have read in this thread.

[OldF]

RAC used to have Silverstone track stage...


I think it was the Donington circuit that was used.


Donington, Silverstone have both been used, in fact I think they were both included in 1997-99. Also both Oulton Park, Aintree have been used in the past. All used when there were the Spectator Country house stages which pulled in huge crowds. Something I'd like to see brought back.

I quoted these posts from the “Rally Deutschland 2012” thread and because posts are off topic from the “Rally Deutschland 2012” and I continue here.

As much as I dislike this kind of “ spectator stages”, I think this is what WRC needs at the moment, easy access to see a WRC car in action. It could attracts people who’s not following rallying regulary to became more interested about rallying and some day go out to the real stages.

I remember these stages was called “Mickey Mouse” stages (at least in the Finnish motorsport press) and the real RAC rally started on the second day.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Here are a few ideas:

1) Encourage the participation of more manufacturers by introducing a new championship: the World Championship for Manufacturers. All drivers who are elegible to score points will score them for their manufacturer, regardless of which team they are driving for (so Latvala and Tanak would both score points for Ford). The current World Championship for Manufacturers, where drivers score points for each team, would be renamed the World Championship for Teams.

2) Expand the calendar to twenty-four rallies, with sixteen events in a season. Eight of these would be considered "core" events, and run on a yearly basis. The other sixteen would be paired together and run on a bi-annual rotation, similar to the Australia-New Zealand rounds. New events should be tailored to appeal to manufacturers where possible (so an event in Japan or even South Korea is a must), and also based on what they bring to the calendar. For instance, there are no rallies in tropical areas, or in deserts, or at high altitude, which I find odd given that a big part of the appeal of rallying is seeing events in difficult conditions. Every individual rally should have something unique about it, which makes it instantly recogniseable to audiences.

3) Encourage rallies to adopt a longer format - up to 600km, if not longer. Also explore the possibility of different formats: sprint (two days, 200km), standard (three days, 400km) and endurance (four-five days, 600km).

4) Introduce a new rule: 30% of a rally (roughly one day) should be run on stages that have never been used by that rally before (alternatively, run on stages that have not been used in the past five years).

5) Stages should not be used more than once in a rally. If they are to be re-used, then they should be run in reverse on the second pass through. This should be still be kept to a minimum, though.

6) Bring back night stages.

7) Get rid of Rally2. It's rubbish. If a driver retires, then he should be out for good (though he may be able to come back for the power stage).

8) Run the power stages separately to the rally. They should be the final stage, and retired drivers should be entitled to come back for it, but they should not count towards the overall running of the rally.

[olschl]

I guess I don't see how this will bring more spectators to the sport? Perhaps this is a list of how you would like the WRC to operate? Maybe if each point explained how it would bring more fans we could see where you are coming from.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Okay:

1) Catering to more manufacturers - who doesn't want to see more manufacturers fighting it out? Right now, we have Ford vs. Citroen, and that's fine ... but Ford vs. Citroen vs. Volkswagen vs. Mini vs. Whoever (Hyundai?) will make things more interesting.

2) Expanding the calendar - more rallies means more opportunities to see rallying, and there is the potential to take the sport to new markets and find new audiences. Right now, there is one rally in North America, one rally in South America and one rally in the Asia-Pacific, which really stymies the ability of fans in those areas to see rallying.

3-5) Varied formats, new stages and no repeats - this is mostly to keep things fresh. I think the WRC has felt a tad stale at times, so this is mostly designed to address that.

6) Night stages - they're always spectacular.

7) Getting rid of Rally2 - Rally2 might give spectators more value for money in that they can see more cars, more often, but I think it really treats them like idiots. I think spectators would appreciate it more if there are actual stakes to play for, where a mistake can put someone out of the event for good, rather than giving them a chance to come back the next day.

8) Separating the power stage - this one was mostly born out of removing Rally2. It gives retired drivers a chance to come back and fight for points, but keeps them out of the wider rally that they retired from.

[olschl]

So you feel getting people out into the stages is what will save the WRC? To me, the entire success of the WRC hinges on how innovative they choose to get with mobile/computer coverage. 75 minutes of coverage every 3 weeks, almost 20 of which is b-roll, is not enough time for the casual viewer to gain an emotional connection with a driver/team/manufacturer. I want to be able to follow my driver through the stages via their on-board. I want access to amateur footage from the stages instantly, a decent ****ing app for my Android phone that looks good, doesn't crash and gives my real-time access to splits, news, interviews. I want more pre-race coverage of the parc ferme with driver interviews, tech stories and manufacturer showcases, a weekly show/podcast/vidcast to keep interest up between rallies. These are the things I feel will save the WRC. As a casual fan, I feel some here are too close to the sport to understand what will get the "Average Joe" involved. I can assure you he doesn't care about the details of 600km rallies, sprints or varied formats. He just wants, no needs, much, much better coverage than we have now.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

So you feel getting people out into the stages is what will save the WRC?
It sure as hell won't hurt. There's nothing quite like being up close to the action.


To me, the entire success of the WRC hinges on how innovative they choose to get with mobile/computer coverage. 75 minutes of coverage every 3 weeks, almost 20 of which is b-roll, is not enough time for the casual viewer to gain an emotional connection with a driver/team/manufacturer.
Perhaps the FIA could look at restructuring the categories a little. I think the WRC Academy is a step in the right direction, but I think rallying needs feeder series, so that you can follow the progress of talented drivers early on in their careers. Take, for example, Daniel Oliveria: who is he? Wikipedia tells me that he drives for the Brazil World Rally Team, but how did he get to the pinnacle of the sport?

On the other hand, Elfyn Evans is looking really good - he's got three consecutive victories and a thirty-five point lead in the Academy. I can watch his progress early on, see that he's a star of the future, and follow his career so that when he gets to the top, that emotional bond you speak of is already firmly established.

Perhaps the FIA should look at structuring the PWRC and the SWRC a little more rigidly, following the model set forth by Formula 1, with the GP2 and GP3 Series as feeder categories. I'm guessing that's what they're working on with the R-class cars.


As a casual fan, I feel some here are too close to the sport to understand what will get the "Average Joe" involved. I can assure you he doesn't care about the details of 600km rallies, sprints or varied formats. He just wants, no needs, much, much better coverage than we have now.
As you say, people don't have enough material with which to form an emotional connection to the sport.

But what happens once they do?

The average Joe might not be too concerned with the nuances of the sport, but once he's hooked on rallying, he's going to need more substance to keep his interest going, and that's where my plan comes in.

[Rally Power]

Okay:

1) Catering to more manufacturers - who doesn't want to see more manufacturers fighting it out? Right now, we have Ford vs. Citroen, and that's fine ... but Ford vs. Citroen vs. Volkswagen vs. Mini vs. Whoever (Hyundai?) will make things more interesting.

2) Expanding the calendar - more rallies means more opportunities to see rallying, and there is the potential to take the sport to new markets and find new audiences. Right now, there is one rally in North America, one rally in South America and one rally in the Asia-Pacific, which really stymies the ability of fans in those areas to see rallying.

3-5) Varied formats, new stages and no repeats - this is mostly to keep things fresh. I think the WRC has felt a tad stale at times, so this is mostly designed to address that.



Yours enthusiastic suggestions, in some cases similar to Todt’s revealed intentions, creates a dilemma: expanding the calendar and enlarging the rallies routes will increase participation budgets, making the series less appealing to manufactuers, especially in nowadays recessional environment.

In order to avoid budget raise, one solution for european rounds could be transnational rallies, using close to borders routes from neighbours countries (as used in Sweden/Norway rally and in several cross-coutry Bajas).

This way we could easily get 5 great european rounds, add the Montecarlo and a full scale GB rally, and pick 5 rallies in other continents in order to get a reasonable 12 events worldwide championship.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I'm not talking about doing all of this in one hit. I simply listed those ideas in order of how big the changes would be. The expansion of the calendar would be final step in the whole process, once new manufacturers are in the sport and committed, a new promoter is in place and has started to grow the sport, and so on.

The trick is to get new manufacturers into the sport and committed to staying there. Suzuki lasted all of a season before they backed out, and Mini's future is up in the air as well. Rallying really needs something like the Concorde Agreement to bind everything together. Get manufacturers to commit for three years at a time, and encourage them to support customer teams. I could see four or five manufacturers in the sport, each with a works team and a customer team (or even two) once the economy picks up again.

When it comes to overseas events, pair them together to spread the costs around a little, and maybe set aside some of the sport's revenue to offset the costs. Maybe even introduce a budget cap for teams to stop things from turning into an arms race. One of the biggest drawcards of the sport is the stability of the regulations - where Formula 1 changes its technical rules every year, the WRC keeps its technical rules in place for years on end. And there are probably other ways of keeping costs down as well that I haven't thought of.

[Mirek]

Mate, most of Your ideas are totally unreal. For Your own good stop dreaming about how You would like it to be but think more about how it really can be.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

However unrealistic you find it, I believe the sport really can be like that. After all, it worked during the 1990s. I still have the 1992 and 1993 Rally Australia on video tape, and most of what I have suggested is derived from that.

Just because you don't think it's possible, that doesn't mean you get to take responsibility for what I think is possible. I'm not a child who needs to be sheltered from disappointment simply because he set his expectations too high. If the whole house of cards comes crashing down around me because I'm a little too ambitious, the blame won't rest with you.

[AndyRAC]

To be fair, I do love your enthusiasm. I'm not sure about the practicalities of your ideas though.

What is the WRC? Who is it for? What does it want to be, or where should it go?

At the moment the Manufacturers and FiA seem to want different things. If the new promoter is RedBull; what would they like to see?

Personally, I think around 12 events is the limit for the WRC. This isn't F1....so the idea of 16-18-20 events is surely a no no? We have to think of the costs, and the returns, which will be nowhere near F1.

India, Brasil and other new markets need to be looked at - however, if there is no 'culture' or history of Rallying, is it worth going?

The format of events is another issue; most events are still using the 'cloverleaf' format. Is it possible for a few events to ditch this? However, Portugal, Finland, Acropolis & Catalunya have used differing formats and used night stages. Finland is the only event that has abandoned the Sunday - again, something different. Could we, or would we want to see weekday events? As there used to be.


However, until we know what the stakeholders want, it's hard to know what the future is.

[olschl]

No disrespect by me Prisoner as it wasn't my intent to turn the thread negative as I enjoyed your post which is why I responded. There are so many negative people on this board I rarely visit anymore but do keep an eye on this thread as to me it is the most "relevant" thread on this forum. Being fairly new to WRC, I think often of why I can't get my gearhead friends more interested in the sport. Most love racing of all kinds and and we all follow World Superbike, British Superbike, British Touring Car and Aussie V8s together but I have trouble keeping them interested in WRC action. The older ones want to see more technical stories on the cars, engines, transmissions, brakes, service, development, etc. The technology in these cars is incredible and needs to be showcased! I know this has been done in the past and I always found them interesting and feel it is a step needed to "explain" the sport to people. My younger friends want more in-car footage where they can get a sense of the speed of the action, more driver interviews explaining the rivalries, team strategies, history, etc. I can only see this being successful if it is done at a much reduced cost than a full-blown production and see it happening on a more "amateur level" with an "internet WRC TV station" staffed and hosted by passionate people such as many on this board. See what Leo Laporte has done with technology with twit.tv for what I am thinking of. It all boils down to everyone wanting more coverage of all kinds. I think your ideas are all valid but can only happen once the sport begins to prosper once again. My dreams are as "pie-in-the-sky" as yours so I guess we are both out of luck!

[N.O.T]

since we keep this discussion realistic i want Lazorzzz on the bonnet the cars...

[olschl]

Right on cue, how predictable! You people would be well served around here to remove post counts from the user display to the left of the post as we found on my motorcycle owner's association forum, it really took all the fun out of it for the trolls if they couldn't see their post counts ratcheting up with one useless post after another. But then again, probably just more "pie-in-the-sky". I do hope you realize that for the new/casual user of this forum, N.O.T., with his post-count proudly displayed, stands as an ambassador of your forum. I'll let you decide if that is a good thing or not.

[anstis]

Here are a few ideas:

3) Encourage rallies to adopt a longer format - up to 600km, if not longer. Also explore the possibility of different formats: sprint (two days, 200km), standard (three days, 400km) and endurance (four-five days, 600km).

5) Stages should not be used more than once in a rally. If they are to be re-used, then they should be run in reverse on the second pass through. This should be still be kept to a minimum, though.



I would love to see this, it's probably top of my wishlist, because I think the cloverleaf format has lead to generic events rather than events that have character and can create a higher profile. (eg, RAC, Safari, Tour de Corse). However with the current rule that a 2 pass reece must be completed in three days this type of route is not possible, and i think that might be part of the reason why, along with the cost, organisers haven't really adopted longer routes. I would like to see this rule relaxed because you'd probably need a week or more to reece a 600km route twice where every stage is unique. But this means there is probably no way you'd realistically fit 16 rallies into a season. In the 1990's when rallies were like this there were normally about 8 rallies making up the championship (or if there was more then teams weren't obliged to compete at each round).

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Perhaps one solution would be to have twelve stages in two days (which is possible, because Germany just did it). The first pass over happens on the first day. Then, overnight, the stages are reversed and run again the second day. It should not be difficult to do, because after the first run through, the stages would have a full 24 hours to be reversed. Then, for the third day, rallies could introduce my "30% of the rally is on new roads" idea. This should not be difficult either, since the organisers need to plan the route out in advance.

In the worst-case scenario, day one could be the first pass through, day two could be the new stages, and day three could be the reverse pass through, giving the organisers 48 hours from the first run through to reverse the stages (but if it takes them that long to do it, they really shouldn't be having a rally).


India, Brasil and other new markets need to be looked at - however, if there is no 'culture' or history of Rallying, is it worth going?
There was no "culture" for Formula 1 in India, and yet when Formula 1 went there for the first time last year, the race was sold out, prompting the question of why Formula 1 did not go there sooner. Indians love their motorsport.

[AndyRAC]

Ah, but that's Formula1; a bad comparison to make. Have they even heard of the WRC?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Ah, but that's Formula1; a bad comparison to make. Have they even heard of the WRC?
There is a national (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Rally_Championship) championship in India, which was established in 1988 and has been held every year since. It is limited to Group A cars at the moment, and there are only four rounds (http://www.fmsci.co.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=16&Itemid=138), but when the FIA was looking at expanding the calendar earlier this year, I believe India was one of the candidate events that was shortlisted - even if South Africa and/or Brazil looked like they were going to go ahead before the plan was scrapped.

So it's not like I'm suggesting establishing an event somewhere like Kazakhstan. Motorsport is popular in India - some local pundits believe it is second only to cricket (or will be soon) - and there is some local infrastructure in place. So it's certainly feasible.

[Brother John]

If I read everything here I think it is better to read the first post of this thread again!
http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/149147-how-do-you-see-future-rally.html#post982161

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I see the future of rally as being in India, because manufacturer teams want events that are worth their money, especially the flyaway events. With over a billion people in India, the popularity of motorsport in the country, and the emerging middle class economy, I think an event in India fits the profile of what the manufacturers want. This will encourage more manufacturers and sponsors to stay in the sport. Similarly, I think it has the potential to be very popular with fans and drivers, so to my mind, an event in India makes more sense than the proposed rallies in Brazil and South Africa. In fact, I see the potential for an event so varied and extreme that it could become an instant hit for all involved.

[stefanvv]

There are some bold dreamers here... I like it. I also agree that applying all of the nice suggestions right now is complete nonsense and nobody would agree to do that.

But in the long term, that doesn't seem so impossible. This year we already see some start of some changes in the rallies. Monte, Mexico, Portugal, Argentina were made endurance events and that definitely brought some charm. 5 days Monte was challenging for the drivers and teams 'cause of the various conditions each they. In Portugal there was actually a night stage in which we saw some surprise - The King made mistake, which happens as often as rain the desert. So I vote up for more variety. If continues this way, WRC will definitely attract more interest.

I also like the suggestion for more technical exposure, I don't know how achievable is this though as some developments of the cars remains secret for some time.

More events is also nice, but that is impossible at the moment, as this is the most expensive part, but grouping nearby Rallies ano after another in short period of time will make the logistics cost less. Events we never saw before, that would be really nice too, especially with unique surfaces which no other event has. I don't see why not as some of these countries are huge markets and will be appealing for manufacturers.

I don't know about Rally 2 though. With so few top level teams removing it will make the events much less appealing and teams will throw their money for nothing. But there is something here might be added - points for stage victories.

[kober]

I don't know about Rally 2 though. With so few top level teams removing it will make the events much less appealing and teams will throw their money for nothing. But there is something here might be added - points for stage victories.And/Or do what ERC does and award extra points for each leg.

[OldF]

1) Encourage the participation of more manufacturers by introducing a new championship: the World Championship for Manufacturers. All drivers who are elegible to score points will score them for their manufacturer, regardless of which team they are driving for (so Latvala and Tanak would both score points for Ford). The current World Championship for Manufacturers, where drivers score points for each team, would be renamed the World Championship for Teams.

In top 10, 3 citroen and 7 Ford, that would be unfair. Two best only.



2) Expand the calendar to twenty-four rallies, with sixteen events in a season.

16 rallies are too much for the manufacturers and even for drivers. 12 – 14 would be ideal. I listened an interview of Carlos Sainz (iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_pod.htm?00000254), no sound anymore) and he said when the calendar was expanded it was enough for him. Also Marcus has said that he was fed up (not only with the Peugeot 307) being on the road all the time. Most of them have a family and children and want to spend more time with the children.



3) Encourage rallies to adopt a longer format - up to 600km, if not longer. Also explore the possibility of different formats: sprint (two days, 200km), standard (three days, 400km) and endurance (four-five days, 600km).

As somebody already told, for a rally with 600 km of stages, two days of recce is not enough.



4) Introduce a new rule: 30% of a rally (roughly one day) should be run on stages that have never been used by that rally before (alternatively, run on stages that have not been used in the past five years).

I recall that this rule is already in use. I’m not sure if it is and if it is, I don’t know how much of the stages have to be unused.



5) Stages should not be used more than once in a rally. If they are to be re-used, then they should be run in reverse on the second pass through. This should be still be kept to a minimum, though.


Even in a rally addicted country as Finland there was some problems to get enough of marshals for some stages of NORF few year back. Most of the marshals are volunteers, the only salary they get is free rally sausage and the verbal feedback from some spectators.

[Barreis]

Drivers should choose 10 favorite events before every season (just like in 90's).

[stoukerman]

"How do you see the future of rally?"

Bleak

It is dying and will die a slow and unassuming death drowned in the sound(?) of electric motors/fuel cells in a sterilised safety concious environment.

Not a criticism, just sign of the times.

[janvanvurpa]

Even in a rally addicted country as Finland there was some problems to get enough of marshals for some stages of NORF few year back. Most of the marshals are volunteers, the only salary they get is free rally sausage and the verbal feedback from some spectators.

Is that payment or punishment?

[Franky]

Is that payment or punishment?

If you like meat, then it's a punishment.

[tfp]

Drivers should choose 10 favorite events before every season (just like in 90's).

A bit like PWRC? Not a bad idea, but there are pros and cons. If you were portugese(I'm just using this as an example, I dont know your nationality) and Citroen decided against Portugal in favour of Germany( for example...) would you still be as willing to attend Portugal? It would mean it would be an almost certain win for Ford, and with no fighting up front apart from within team mates.

On the up side, it would be attractive to smaller teams like M sport and Prodrive and new manufacturers, because they could opt to skip Australia and Mexico, and the long haul expensive events. And new manufacturers and teams is exactly what we need right now!



"How do you see the future of rally?"

Bleak

It is dying and will die a slow and unassuming death drowned in the sound(?) of electric motors/fuel cells in a sterilised safety concious environment.

Not a criticism, just sign of the times.

Please, lets hope not. If this does happen we can say we have lived in the glory days of MotorSport and not Electric Motor Sport ;)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

In top 10, 3 citroen and 7 Ford, that would be unfair. Two best only.
The idea is to encourage manufacturers to make their cars available to privateer teams. Right now, there are, as you say, three Citroens and seven Fords in the top ten. But if all cars score points on behalf of their manufacturer, it would be in Citroen's interests to support privateer teams so that they can score more points.


Even in a rally addicted country as Finland there was some problems to get enough of marshals for some stages of NORF few year back. Most of the marshals are volunteers, the only salary they get is free rally sausage and the verbal feedback from some spectators.
It wouldn't be that difficult to reverse a stage - all you'd have to do is swap the split timing and signage around.

[Franky]

It wouldn't be that difficult to reverse a stage - all you'd have to do is swap the split timing and signage around.

You seem to forget about the spectators. Changing the spectators viewing areas takes time and man power. Also when you'd run all the stages once in a day it will increase the "cost" of marshalling a lot compared to the current format of X number of stages and their reruns on a single day.

You seem to choose to view only part of the picture, not the whole.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

You seem to forget about the spectators. Changing the spectators viewing areas takes time and man power.
And you seem to forget that the route is not planned the night before the rally starts. If the organisers knew that they were going to run a stage in both directions, common sense dictates that they would plan for this when setting up spectator viewing areas. They would either a) plan areas that would be safe for viewing when the cars are running in both directions, or b) set up all areas before the event, and then limit access on the day. The latter would also require that it be made clear to spectators that the viewing areas would change from one day to the next. It wouldn't be difficult - say that the stage will be run in one direction on the first morning, and in reverse on the second morning. Spectator areas for the first pass through could be marked in blue, and in orange for the second run through. The challenge is to keep the spectators informed of where they are supposed to be at any one time, but rallies already do that - after all, putting spectators on the outside of a hairpin bend that comes at the end of a long, fast straight is obviously unsafe, so this kind of crowd management is not a new concept.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I think reversing a stage to drive it again on the same day is quite dangerous for drivers also
That's why I'm proposing doing it on separate days. The first pass through happens on Day 1. The second pass through - when the stage is run in reverse - is done on Day 2 or even on Day 3.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Well, I still think that if it's planned out from the start and planned properly, it can be done.

[AndyRAC]

Actually, the reversing of stages has been done on the old RAC in the 90’s. I remember the loops out of Chester started with Dyfnant, then moved on to Hafren Sweetlamb in the morning – and returned later in the day to Sweetlamb Hafren, then Dyfnant. Even with a huge 180 car field, there was time between the two runs to ‘turn around’ the stage.

If there is a will, then there is a way.

[Franky]

If there is money, then there is a way.

Corrected your last sentence.

[OldF]

Is that payment or punishment?

It’s not a payment nor a punishment, it’s a privilege to have a “rallimakkara” for free. :)

[OldF]

Actually, the reversing of stages has been done on the old RAC in the 90’s. I remember the loops out of Chester started with Dyfnant, then moved on to Hafren Sweetlamb in the morning – and returned later in the day to Sweetlamb Hafren, then Dyfnant. Even with a huge 180 car field, there was time between the two runs to ‘turn around’ the stage.

If there is a will, then there is a way.

But were the spectator areas in the 90’s as strict as nowadays? At least I see the reverse stages as a problem at least in NORF with these VIP areas, which has in some circumstances has occupied the best spectator places (remembering one year at Urria’s deep jump, where the best places was a VIP area :s mash :) . With a reversed stage some of those could be at dangerous places and to move the big tents during the same day would be a huge task.

The only solution would be to plan the spectator and VIP areas considering both direction of approach.

[BleAivano]

But were the spectator areas in the 90’s as strict as nowadays? At least I see the reverse stages as a problem at least in NORF with these VIP areas, which has in some circumstances has occupied the best spectator places (remembering one year at Urria’s deep jump, where the best places was a VIP area :s mash :) . With a reversed stage some of those could be at dangerous places and to move the big tents during the same day would be a huge task.

The only solution would be to plan the spectator and VIP areas considering both direction of approach.


The solution would be to use a large airship that is placed over the stage.

[janvanvurpa]

The solution would be to use a large airship that is placed over the stage.

Great!then we could have "Trickle Down Spectating"
The 1% sees everything, the rest pay more to stand 250m back into a swamp. :arrows:

[Plan9]

I hope things can fget better from here. I am sad to think that I am as interested in IRC,APRC and ERC as I am in the WRC. Ususally I am totally on WRC, but not for the last 2 seasons....

[Sulland]

Looking at the number of cars in several championships, I think WRC need to give some airtime and publicity to WRC 2 and WRC 3 in 2013.

They have to give cred to the people willing to work themselves up the Rally Ladder. If they are to get sponsors, they need publicity on TV and internet, much more than today.
As of today many are going to IRC where Privateers and "work" teams get much more equal coverage. If you do well, you get cover and cred. Not like that in the WRC world - That need to change dramatically to get up the numbers agsin !!

[Brother John]

The rally season is al most over, what do you think about in future? After Wales all the official news of rallies can be very different than we expect.
There are many questions that many people do not dare to talk about it just now!
Here are some questions from me and you can come with your questions and possible answers.
Which teams will continue to rally in the future?
Which factory teams continue to rally in the future?
What new factory teams will run against Citroen or Volkswagen in the future?
Who will still sponsor rallies in the future?
Is there money for more drivers than a few drivers who are paid just now?
Are the current rally cars not too expensive?
What do you think about the future.

Bring it on and let us talk about your views. :s mokin:

Again, we would now be able to start with this post for wrc 2013!

[Sulland]

Again, we would now be able to start with this post for wrc 2013!

Perfect timing, should think you had connections @ Ford :) )

[Plan9]

I am hoping Qatar keeps a presence in the WRC. They have money to burn

[Sulland]

The future also in rally is Chinese.

The reason for this is that in a few years they will own many of the businesses that are sponsoring rally, also WRC. They will also own most car companies. They are thinking long term profit, not short term like us!
Europe and US made a wring choice when we did not want to pay more than 10 euro for a T shirt.
Today most goods are made in China, to late to turn the trend.

but enough real world stuff.....

[GigiGalliNo1]

If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi coming back and sponsoring Citroen WRT. I guarantee you Citroen too, would be out of the WRC!

[stefanvv]

If it wasn't for Abu Dhabi coming back and sponsoring Citroen WRT. I guarantee you Citroen too, would be out of the WRC!

I agree, no Peugeot 208 development either probably.

[Red bull]

maybe Al Attiya's Qatar will come up with something for M-Sport as they didn't get Citroen racing....wishful thinking :D :D

[Leon]

maybe Al Attiya's Qatar will come up with something for M-Sport as they didn't get Citroen racing....wishful thinking :D :D

I had an even more wishful thinking. Apart from WRC, Msport and their belgian designer (Mr Lauriox?) can be very helpful for the design of his buggy for his Dakar exploits.

So lets lobby him when he comes to Cyprus for the MERC IRC event :)

[Sulland]

Much sense in this one
Ch-ch-ch-changes! - The Rally Report (http://www.therallyreport.com/editorial/2012/12/10/ch-ch-ch-changes!/)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I had this crazy, crazy idea the other day when I was in the thread for this year's Rally of Sweden. While discussing some of the finer details of the route, I realised that some of the stages that the rally covers are actually in Norway, and were enve used in the Rally of Norway when it was on the calendar. I may well be the very last person in the world to have realised this, and I apologise for having been so ignorant, but the idea took hold in my mind and has manifested itself like this: what if other rallies took a cue from Sweden's lead?

I have been quite critical of the Rally of France, primarily because I feel that it doesn't really contribute anything to the calendar. Strasboug is just 150km from Trier, making the roads and terrain rather similar, and the cynic in me believes it is really just there so that Sebastien Loeb can win the World Championship near his hometown, and that it will not last long once he retires. That being said, I like to believe that I am a man whose opinion can be changed in the face of a compelling argument, and with nothing better to do, it occurred to me that there must be something decent about the Rally of France. And despite my dislike of the event, I found that there are some decent stages.

At the same time, I have been critical of the way modern rallies pass over almost every stage twice during the event. I understand that this is required by the rules and helps keep costs down, but I feel that the practice dilutes the sport a bit. It was at this point that an idea struck like lightning: with Trier and Strasbourg being so close, would it be possible to run the Rallies of France and Germany as a joint event? Take half the stages from Germany and half the stages from France and fuse them together into one super event, which organisers from each country footing half the bill to keep the costs to themselves down.

In addition to France-Germany, we could have Sweden-Norway as we already do (except on a larger scale with more Norweigan stages), and even bring Monte Carlo and Sanremo together. Australia and New Zealand might even be a possiblity, though the trans-Tasman flight would be expensive. But the end result would be a greater range of more-challenging events, keeping the same number of overall rallies on the calendar, but freeing up space for additional rallies.

[tommeke_B]

@prisoner monkeys, how about combining Iceland and Mongolia?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

@prisoner monkeys, how about combining Iceland and Mongolia?
Because they're not close to one another.

Monte Carlo-Sanremo, France-Germany and Sweden-Norway work because the stages are geographically close to one another. Sweden is already proving it can be done because the Kirkaener, Finnskogen and Opaker stages used in 2012 are in Norway - they were used in 2009.

[tommeke_B]

You don't see the irony?

But you said Australia-NZ... Nothing realistic in that. Sweden-Norway works indeed, although there are only very few stages in Norway. But don't expect Monte-San Remo or France-Germany, both have their own sponsors... Rallye de France is supported by FFSA, while Germany by ADAC, no way they want to "share" their rally. I also don't see Monte Carlo make a such change in their classic, and why should they?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Australia and New Zealand - specifically Coffs Harbour and Auckand - are a three-hour flight apart. And maybe a five-hour drive from Sydney to Coffs Harbour. If the FIA could find some way of keeping them in parc ferme on a plane across the Tasman Sea and the organisers scheduled a day's break to relocate, it could be possible. Unrealistic and probably unpopular, but possible.

And if costs keep increasing, then perhaps the FFSA and ADAC could become amenable to sharing - particularly if they want to keep their rallies, but cannot afford to do so individually.

As for Monte Carlo-Sanremo, I admit that was an afterthought when I realised how close the two host cities actually are (and also because I think the WRC needs more than three tarmac events). Personally, I'd love to see a Monte Carlo Rally with eighteen individual stages, rather than nine stages run twice. If that's not possible using stages that have been run only on the Monte, then perhaps crossing into Italy would be a way to do it.

[stefanvv]

Borrowing some stages is one thing, Unifying two Rallies is completely another. Norway still has Rally "Norway" I think.

[SubaruNorway]

Even if I'm from Norway I'm not that keen on the Norwegian stages and the way it's set up this year, much more spectacular stages further north like The Mountain stage, Ringsaker and Løten with up to 1 1/2m snowbanks in a few places :) If we should have stages we should have proper ones in my opinion, not possible running together with Sweden of course because of the distance.

Rally Norway 2009 The Mountain stage
http://www.raceinfo.no/temp/tn_2126_51475237623_1386_n.jpg

[tommeke_B]

Australia and New Zealand - specifically Coffs Harbour and Auckand - are a three-hour flight apart. And maybe a five-hour drive from Sydney to Coffs Harbour. If the FIA could find some way of keeping them in parc ferme on a plane across the Tasman Sea and the organisers scheduled a day's break to relocate, it could be possible. Unrealistic and probably unpopular, but possible.

And if costs keep increasing, then perhaps the FFSA and ADAC could become amenable to sharing - particularly if they want to keep their rallies, but cannot afford to do so individually.

As for Monte Carlo-Sanremo, I admit that was an afterthought when I realised how close the two host cities actually are (and also because I think the WRC needs more than three tarmac events). Personally, I'd love to see a Monte Carlo Rally with eighteen individual stages, rather than nine stages run twice. If that's not possible using stages that have been run only on the Monte, then perhaps crossing into Italy would be a way to do it.

I don't understand how you even come up with the idea of Australia + NZ... A 3 hour flight, that's as much as flying from Monte Carlo to Sweden. ;) Parc fermé in a plane? Come on! Rallye Deutschland and Rallye de France are 2 of the financially most healthy events in the championship, when costs become too high for them, half of the events will have already dropped from the calendar.

For Monte there are plenty of other stages they could use too... But if you drive 2x as much stages, 2x costs, 2x marshalls, 2x police, 2x safety plan, 2x..., Also it means 2x as much recce for the crews. And after all, FIA has to agree with the events itinerary too. ;)

You have a lot of inspiration but nothing of it is realistic.

[Kielder]

The Monte Carlo Rally was the pioneer in using stages from another event. In 1976 some roads from San Remo were part of the Monegasque rally: Coldidori - Vignal & Molini di Triora - Pigna.
All this about borrowing stages (and a lot less unifying rallies) isn't part of the past, but only an anecdote. I doubt it would be something to have in mind for the future. What has to be done is to include in the calendar proper stages and proper rallies, such as San Remo (even Ireland). I certainly won't be missing a rally full of stages with chicanes and steel poles on bends.