Safety car restart

[penagate]

It's often occured to me that the way the races are restarted after a safety car period is flawed. With the ability to control the pace when the safety car lights go out, the leader gets a significant advantage, and more so if there is lapped traffic towards the front of the queue.

Is there any reason why can't F1 couldn't adopt an approach similar to NASCAR — restarting in formation on the start/finish straight, with lapped cars on one side of the track and cars on the lead lap on the other, and no breaking formation until the green flag is waved?

[call_me_andrew]

NASCAR abandoned that system because the lapped cars kept getting in the way of faster cars.

Here's an easier solution: the leader may not accelerate until he crosses start/finish.

[Koz]

We should go back to the old system when lapped cars could unlap themselves.
At least that way we would see some racing straight away.

[ioan]

We should go back to the old system when lapped cars could unlap themselves.
At least that way we would see some racing straight away.

That is unsafe as the cars unlaping themselves will drive past the problematic track section very fast.

[airshifter]

NASCAR abandoned that system because the lapped cars kept getting in the way of faster cars.

Here's an easier solution: the leader may not accelerate until he crosses start/finish.

Common sense in action. For that reason alone the FIA won't consider it. :)

[intheway]

Here's an easier solution: the leader may not accelerate until he crosses start/finish.

And the other cars can accelerate when? When the leader crosses the start/finish? How do they know exactly when to do it, are they penalised if they're too early? Seems to me that can only be advantageous to the leader, the only one who can accurately see when he's crossing the line.

[nigelred5]

It can all be worked out, but the question is, do we WANT that in F1. allowing cars to un-lap themselves is easy. They don't go green until the course fully reset after a safety car. The safety car merely has to allow lapped cars past and hold the field until they do so. RE-form the grid prior to the SC entering pit lane at the final turn, then only allow acceleration by ANYONE once he crosses the S/F line.

[nigelred5]

That is unsafe as the cars unlaping themselves will drive past the problematic track section very fast.

. This isn't a local yellow. If they are under safety car it 's because there are safety and course workers on the track, they shouldn't be driving ANYWHERE very fast. That's the whole purpose of the SC. SC picks up the leader, everyone else lapped goes by at safe speeds.


It always amuses me how difficult F1 can make the (PACE)safety car situations.

[AndyL]

Surely the purpose of the safety car is to bunch all the cars up into a single pack, so that once the pack has gone past, the marshals will have 2-3 minutes to safely work on the track without any cars passing. You shouldn't have cars driving past marshals working on the track at any speed if it can be avoided.

I've never understood this idea that we've somehow been denied a battle for the lead after a safety car as a result of backmarkers in the queue. The safety car is there to protect the marshals. It's not there for our entertainment, or to create a passing opportunity where there wasn't one before. Sometimes it does, but that's a side-effect. If there are backmarkers between the leader and the guy in second place when the safety car goes in, well guess what, it's because they were there before the safety car came out. There are very few cases where the leader's advantage is is more after the safety car than it was before.

[Garry Walker]

That is unsafe as the cars unlaping themselves will drive past the problematic track section very fast.

Not if they have to keep to certain speeds or they will be penalized.

[ioan]

. This isn't a local yellow. If they are under safety car it 's because there are safety and course workers on the track, they shouldn't be driving ANYWHERE very fast. That's the whole purpose of the SC. SC picks up the leader, everyone else lapped goes by at safe speeds.


It always amuses me how difficult F1 can make the (PACE)safety car situations.

Define safe speeds.

Not everything is as easy as it looks from the PC keyboards, lives are in danger as soon as one person drops the ball.
What we have now is a good solution, and an equitable one.
Why would a driver make up ground to the driver ahead just like that? Having the back markers in there removes some of the advantage that the others gain over the leader in SC cases.

[ioan]

Not if they have to keep to certain speeds or they will be penalized.

So if they drive around slowly it will take them a few more laps to get back at the end of the queue and thus we would have 10 laps of C instead of 5? No thanks.
SC rules are at their best since quite a long time, let them be.

[ioan]

Surely the purpose of the safety car is to bunch all the cars up into a single pack, so that once the pack has gone past, the marshals will have 2-3 minutes to safely work on the track without any cars passing. You shouldn't have cars driving past marshals working on the track at any speed if it can be avoided.

I've never understood this idea that we've somehow been denied a battle for the lead after a safety car as a result of backmarkers in the queue. The safety car is there to protect the marshals. It's not there for our entertainment, or to create a passing opportunity where there wasn't one before. Sometimes it does, but that's a side-effect. If there are backmarkers between the leader and the guy in second place when the safety car goes in, well guess what, it's because they were there before the safety car came out. There are very few cases where the leader's advantage is is more after the safety car than it was before.

I don't remember any such case.

And I agree with your post! Well said. :up:

[vhatever]

It's often occured to me that the way the races are restarted after a safety car period is flawed. With the ability to control the pace when the safety car lights go out, the leader gets a significant advantage, and more so if there is lapped traffic towards the front of the queue.

Is there any reason why can't F1 couldn't adopt an approach similar to NASCAR — restarting in formation on the start/finish straight, with lapped cars on one side of the track and cars on the lead lap on the other, and no breaking formation until the green flag is waved?


Genius, the leader is usually severely PUNISHED by having the entire field catch up to him. Like when button lucked out a half dozen times and caught vettel in the rain due to the non-stop safety cars and drivers too stupid to drive in changing conditions. Without them, button probably would have been lapped in that race by vettel.

[vhatever]

Apart from Canada this year where Button was 1.5 seconds per lap faster than Vettel in the closing laps and caught him on pure pace. The SC had alot to do with Button's movement through the field and luck played a part, but in changeable conditions you have to expect the SC to appear at some point and its down the driver to be consistent IMO.

A safety car, sure.

A half dozen safety cars? There is no way to plan for that. It all boils down to luck.

[Whyzars]

With radio communications and a list of who needs to be where, the marshalls should be able to sort the pack into a safe racing order in less than a lap and without the need for anyone passing the safety car.

I've always considered the aggressive passing of slower cars when the SC comes in as being very unsafe and if they can be shuffled out of harms way under safety car conditions the why not do it.

[ioan]

With radio communications and a list of who needs to be where, the marshalls should be able to sort the pack into a safe racing order in less than a lap and without the need for anyone passing the safety car.

Given that you are that smart please let us all know how that can be done. Looking forward to it.

[AndyL]

Well, you could say that blue flags stay in effect under safety car conditions. The teams could tell their drivers whether the guy behind them is trying to lap them. But personally I don't see any justification for doing that, and "shuffling the pack" in that way is not going to be beneficial to safety.

[Whyzars]

Given that you are that smart please let us all know how that can be done. Looking forward to it.


I wasn't trying to be smart at all and I'm glad I've given you something to look forward to.

Anyway, I figure that the safety car would no longer "pick up" the first placed car rather the field would be immediately under the safety car no matter who it picks up first.

The objective or final sequence of the cars behind the safety car would be decided and made available to the drivers.

That sequence would be displayed to the drivers as "current position behind the safety car" and "final position behind the safety car". The driver would know from that display if he is going to be yielding or passing.

Starting from the back of the field, the order begins to be finalised through radio messages. The car that should be 24th begins to let cars pass until he is in position 24. The car that should be 23rd begins to let cars pass until he is in 23rd and so on.

A system of "passing under SC" would need to be developed to ensure that the "shuffle" is orderly. Issues such as a radio not working would need a solution.

I see this as something that can avoid a dangerous aspect of the safety car and I do assume two things. First that F1 drivers are not stupid and the second assumption is that F1 drivers are not stupid.

Just a suggestion or disussion point.

[ioan]

I wasn't trying to be smart at all and I'm glad I've given you something to look forward to.

Anyway, I figure that the safety car would no longer "pick up" the first placed car rather the field would be immediately under the safety car no matter who it picks up first.

The objective or final sequence of the cars behind the safety car would be decided and made available to the drivers.

That sequence would be displayed to the drivers as "current position behind the safety car" and "final position behind the safety car". The driver would know from that display if he is going to be yielding or passing.

Starting from the back of the field, the order begins to be finalised through radio messages. The car that should be 24th begins to let cars pass until he is in position 24. The car that should be 23rd begins to let cars pass until he is in 23rd and so on.

A system of "passing under SC" would need to be developed to ensure that the "shuffle" is orderly. Issues such as a radio not working would need a solution.

I see this as something that can avoid a dangerous aspect of the safety car and I do assume two things. First that F1 drivers are not stupid and the second assumption is that F1 drivers are not stupid.

Just a suggestion or disussion point.

So basically your

With radio communications and a list of who needs to be where, the marshalls should be able to sort the pack into a safe racing order in less than a lap and without the need for anyone passing the safety car.


Is about the drivers finding a way to get themselves on a position that is given to them by the race marshals, and this by continuously changing position until they are in the right position?
What if a driver needs to be fourth and after endless moves he get's there, however the driver who has to be 3rd still needs to get to his position and suddenly the guy who was 4th becomes 5th and so on?
I don't see how you can do this within 1 lap, that's why I considered your claim to be pretty much impossible.

Letting the drivers un-lap themselves was the easiest way to achieve that, however it was a dangerous solution, as well as not fair to the drivers who had a serious advantage before the SC.

[Whyzars]

What if a driver needs to be fourth and after endless moves he get's there, however the driver who has to be 3rd still needs to get to his position and suddenly the guy who was 4th becomes 5th and so on?
I don't see how you can do this within 1 lap, that's why I considered your claim to be pretty much impossible.



The scenario you describe could never happen when the re-order is done from last to first. I don't actually see that there would be too many moves in reality.

The process would begin with the last placed car, wherever he is in the line, yielding positions so as to work his way backwards through the field by letting other cars pass. I would be surprised if there were ever a need to re-position more than a third of the cars in this way. The field is already pretty much sorted with the exceptions requiring attention. They could even display a flashing blue light when a car is actively being re-positioned.

Trick is to focus on the last placed car before all others and then work through the order, one car at a time, in reverse. I realise the difiiculties for marshalls coordinating over radio's but can't see why sorting the field in this manner, from last to first, would not be achievable within a single lap. In fact, once it became bedded down I would expect they could get the job done in a couple of straights. :D

24, 23, 22, 21...

[ioan]

The scenario you describe could never happen when the re-order is done from last to first. I don't actually see that there would be too many moves in reality.

The process would begin with the last placed car, wherever he is in the line, yielding positions so as to work his way backwards through the field by letting other cars pass. I would be surprised if there were ever a need to re-position more than a third of the cars in this way. The field is already pretty much sorted with the exceptions requiring attention. They could even display a flashing blue light when a car is actively being re-positioned.

Trick is to focus on the last placed car before all others and then work through the order, one car at a time, in reverse. I realise the difiiculties for marshalls coordinating over radio's but can't see why sorting the field in this manner, from last to first, would not be achievable within a single lap. In fact, once it became bedded down I would expect they could get the job done in a couple of straights. :D

24, 23, 22, 21...

No matter in what order you do it, you won't pull it off within one lap, it would take at least 3 to make it work safely.