What would u like to see in a rally game?

[Rallylegend]

What are the crucial things that you would like to see / feel in a new rally game?

For example WRC game or a National Rally game?

What are in your opinion the good things from a game for example:
- RBR ( Richard Burns Rally)
- CMR ( Colin McRae Rally 1,2,3,04, 2005,dirt, dirt2 ,dirt 3)
- WRC games

or perhaps u noticed good things in other racing games , for example F1 2011

What is importent for you in the game play? Is it the physics or does it has to be the look?

What kind of racing classes would you like to play, is it just the WRC rallycars or is it also the rallycross cars or Group N rally cars?

The information from you guys will be used as feedback for a new rally game ( Information will follow later)

[lcd]

No offence mate, but why don't you give us that Information first?
Last time a similar thread was made around here, turned out to a complete fail/joke.

[Rallylegend]

Codemasters ;-) Need more information? ^^ i cant tell all Luke

And beside that Luke u know i am already longer than 1 year investigating this stuff also on the Codemasters forums and other rally forums ;-P i aint faking / joking

[habsalot]

Hope you are on to something good in the near future ! Here is my humble contribution.

From a previous thread + update


Thank you for opening this up to the users . I have played most of the rally games mentioned from CM series from CMR 2 to Dirt 3, Mobil 1 , RBR , Rally Trophy and Rallisport Challenge . While all are mostly fine games but each one seems to be lacking in 1 or 2 areas. Allow me to list what I would be looking for in the ultimate Rally game. First of all, good to hear the graphics would not be the ultimate goal and I agree with all the comments made so far.

Stage lenght : Mobil 1 stages were the best in terms of the lenght.

Handling: RBR & Rally Trophy : They are the benchmarks so far as handling goes. A steep learning curve but once
mastered seems the best so far in terms of the handling of a real Rally car. Update : handling in Dirt 3 acceptable .

Atmosphere : CMR 4, Dirt 1 & WRC 2010 give the sense with the career path that you are a Rally driver particating in the top
level of the sport after buiding up from the lower levels . I have yet to play WRC 2010 but it does provide the gamer with the feeling of being in the different series from JWRC, PWRC and WRC . IMO this is the major disapointment with Dirt 3 in terms of re - playability , no Rally Championship.

Stage diversity : Mobil 1 and Dirt 1 , stages representative of what real stages are like. Especially Mobil1 with narrow stages
that seem to reflect the real life British Championship . As much weather effects as possible, fog and snow especially.

Cars : most of the cars in all the games mentioned are fairly accurately reprensented. This is the one area I have a criticism
of RBR . Not enough cars and only 1 FWD in the original games althought the modders have been fantastic. Love the FWD cars in CMR04 and Dirt 3

On a personal note . Please make any ( all ) Rally titles available in North America for the XBox 360 .

[Rallylegend]

Stage lenght : Mobil 1 stages were the best in terms of the lenght................... .

The stage lenght is something that already is in discussion, because u have 2 problems ,
[1] not everyone would like to drive for example a 45 km Panzerplatte stage. but i do agree a stage around 5-8 min would be better
[2] U got a maximum data limit on a dvd or blue ray

thank you for your reply habsalot =)

[Bruce D]

Rallylegend, I don't know if you have yet, but you should read this thread - http://www.motorsportforums.com/simulations/145992-need-some-help-creating-new-rally-game.html - it had quite a few ideas in it (mine as well) and will also explain why LCD reacted the way he did, which personally was also my original reaction to your thread, and honestly I think the jury will still be out on your game until we see it, cos last time we gave our opinions and all it was was some moron advertising his Need For Speed game or whatever. Sorry if we seem a bit hostile, we've just been burnt before and we desperately want a great rally game and if you can produce it then we'll back you 100%.

[Bruce D]

Somethings have just come to my head now which I think I should add, given your concerns about disc size. Remember most WRC events (and even National events) these days tend to repeat stages to get the mileage without finding tons of roads, so you could do that, only design the roads so that they can show wear after cars have been through them, like RBR does and you can repeat stages. That way you can make longer rallies, which is something I'd like to see, 6 stages really isn't enough time to get into a rally.

Another thing, especially for people like me who don't have internet at home, is to make big fields of AI for rallies, so like 50 or more entries, in various classes. Like Rally Championship and games like RAC Rally before it, it would be fun to make your way back up the leaderboard after losing time, etc. It just means a bigger database of AI people and more to calculate.

A third thing is classic WRC seasons, like 1998, etc where you can play against the likes of McRae, Sainz, Burns, Makinen, Kankkunen, etc.

Lastly, in the career mode (good in WRC 2010, but not brilliant), have you come up through national championships to get to the top. Now lets say you have 9 stages per country in the WRC calendar, keeping in mind that although this is 117 stages you could have short superspecial stages. Anyway, point is 9 stages repeated is 18 stages, which is a great length for a WRC event. Now you can have a national championship based in each country in the WRC, so a British championship, Swedish championship, French, Spainish, Argentine, etc. That's 13 national championships you can have, each can have 3 stages from the WRC event, repeated meaning each national event is 6 stages long. Now you could repeat that again, for the other stages and have a 3 round national championship containing only the 9 stages you made for the WRC round.

Next step after that is to make a European championship, consisting of the European rounds of the WRC calendar, using 6 of the stages per rally repeated, meaning 12 stages per event and 9 rounds making a European championship. Next step is the WRC itself. But remember at all these levels you can have individual classes too, so you could start out doing the nationals in a R2 car or something and progress to N4/S2000, then either get an Academy invite or do the European championship in a S2000 or R3 or something, moving to the JWRC, SWRC and eventually doing the WRC itself.

[Rallylegend]

Already readed Bruce, habsalot posted it here too and add a little bit,
the reason i posted this again is that many of you who played rally games noticed the good things in a few rally games , for example RBR had good physics. and CMR had a good line up from there cars.

Wha i try to get clear is all the good things from all the rally games and put that together...

Personally i think that a rally game has to start where its all about, challenging long stages with many different physics, for example tarmac gravel and the weather around it, and after 22 stages there is a winner of the rally , then all the rules comes around after 2 stages service , a limit of time service , super rally system etc etc etc

But what do you guys think about it? And what do you guys think about an option to write your own pace notes, have a recce and stuff like that?

And no I aint a nasty advertiser or something , Pino, luke and some others are following me for a few years I just want the best for the rally sport (Specially because i am also a rally driver)

[Rallylegend]

Somethings have just come to my head now which I think I should add, given your concerns about disc size. Remember most WRC events (and even National events) these days tend to repeat stages to get the mileage without finding tons of roads, so you could do that, only design the roads so that they can show wear after cars have been through them, like RBR does and you can repeat stages. That way you can make longer rallies, which is something I'd like to see, 6 stages really isn't enough time to get into a rally.

Another thing, especially for people like me who don't have internet at home, is to make big fields of AI for rallies, so like 50 or more entries, in various classes. Like Rally Championship and games like RAC Rally before it, it would be fun to make your way back up the leaderboard after losing time, etc. It just means a bigger database of AI people and more to calculate.

A third thing is classic WRC seasons, like 1998, etc where you can play against the likes of McRae, Sainz, Burns, Makinen, Kankkunen, etc.

Lastly, in the career mode (good in WRC 2010, but not brilliant), have you come up through national championships to get to the top. Now lets say you have 9 stages per country in the WRC calendar, keeping in mind that although this is 117 stages you could have short superspecial stages. Anyway, point is 9 stages repeated is 18 stages, which is a great length for a WRC event. Now you can have a national championship based in each country in the WRC, so a British championship, Swedish championship, French, Spainish, Argentine, etc. That's 13 national championships you can have, each can have 3 stages from the WRC event, repeated meaning each national event is 6 stages long. Now you could repeat that again, for the other stages and have a 3 round national championship containing only the 9 stages you made for the WRC round.

Next step after that is to make a European championship, consisting of the European rounds of the WRC calendar, using 6 of the stages per rally repeated, meaning 12 stages per event and 9 rounds making a European championship. Next step is the WRC itself. But remember at all these levels you can have individual classes too, so you could start out doing the nationals in a R2 car or something and progress to N4/S2000, then either get an Academy invite or do the European championship in a S2000 or R3 or something, moving to the JWRC, SWRC and eventually doing the WRC itself.

I like your idea Bruce but this is what I calculate from the Calendar of the WRC 2005 ( because of the Mitsubishi lancer WRC 2005 :D ) and this is my result:

Monte Carlo Rally 15 stages 353 km Tarmac
Swedish Rally 20 stages 359 km Snow/ Ice / Tarmac
Rally Mexico 14 stages 355 km gravel
Rally New Zealand 20 stages 355 km gravel
Rally d'Italia Sardegna 17 stages 350 km gravel
Cyprus Rally 18 stages 326 km gravel
Rally of Turkey 18 stages 348 km gravel
Acropolis Rally 19 stages 349 km gravel
Rally Argentina 22 stages 359 km gravel
Rally Finland 21 stages 355 km gravel
Rallye Deutschland 19 stages 355 km tarmac
Wales Rally GB 17 stages 354 km gravel
Rally Japan 26 stages 350 km gravel
Tour de Corse 12 stages 341 km Tarmac
Rally Catalunya 15 stages 358 km Tarmac
Rally Australia 26 stages 355 km gravel


Total: 299 Stages 5622 km

Now mostly of the stages u will drive twice so it’s an average of 2811 km stage in a game, isnt it to much to develop ?( I have no clue i aint a developer) and beside that then u need to develop still the national stages what is left... And specially the todays grafics takes lots of data on the disc.... and i have no clue how far u will get with 2 discs...

[habsalot]

I would not be so interested in writing my own pace notes but the option of speed of the calls was nice in RBR . It might be easier on developers to use things that already exist than invent new things eventhough this is a wish list.

I understand the lenght of stages depends on the data limit . A greater number of stages per rally in the 5-8 minute range is fine. Ideally with a couple of 10 minute ones thrown in.

[pino]

Give me a sequel of CMR2 and I will be very happy hehe :D great thread btw ;)

[Rallylegend]

Give me a sequel of CMR2 and I will be very happy hehe :D great thread btw ;)

A total remake of CMR2 ( with the new grafixs and stuff like that ) would take longer then developing and creating a new "rally" game like D3 ..... strange but it is true... thats why they wont make a remake...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The thing I loved about CMR2 was how difficult the A.I was on certain events, especially the tarmac rally's at Italy and France. Making a 'legend' difficulty of A.I that is very difficult to beat is what will make me pick up the game over and over again.

[Bruce D]

To me the best way to deal with AI speed is not a set level, i.e. Legend, Professional, etc, but rather a sliding scale percentage, range say from 75% to 120%. That way you can match the AI more to your liking. Look at the F1 game series, for 2010 they made the legend level too slow, now people are saying it's too fast. A sliding scale makes it easier for people to match their pace. And really, on a rally game that just means a calculation factor, you don't get to see the other cars. D3 has that thing where you're all running together but that's not really necessary.

[Bruce D]

Personally i think that a rally game has to start where its all about, challenging long stages with many different physics, for example tarmac gravel and the weather around it, and after 22 stages there is a winner of the rally , then all the rules comes around after 2 stages service , a limit of time service , super rally system etc etc etc

And what do you guys think about an option to write your own pace notes, have a recce and stuff like that?

I like the sound of that, many stages in a rally. Although the disc limitation is a factor, particularly if you're planning a release on console, nobody wants to play disc jockey. I agree with everything, but 22 stages in a rally could be too much for the disc size. Rather make less stages and longer ones. And my idea earlier was more giving the game depth in terms of career mode but not having to make extra stages. Or maybe make it shorter versions of each stage. So the WRC version lasts 20km but the national version is only 10km and European version is 15km.

As far as pacenotes are concerned, I'd prefer it more if you could edit the existing pacenotes, rather than make completely new ones. So really the game should ship with standard notes (I agree with hasbalot, you should be able to change the speed of the calls), but then have an editor you can use during the recce (like RBR.dll version allowed, but not so complicated to use). RBR had the recce, which was basically just drive the stage beforehand, nothing complicated. You could have that. Personally I never use it but I think some people would.

[rjbetty]

The thing I loved about CMR2 was how difficult the A.I was on certain events, especially the tarmac rally's at Italy and France. Making a 'legend' difficulty of A.I that is very difficult to beat is what will make me pick up the game over and over again.

One of the most sensible things I've read this year!

In fact, this is the best thread I've read all year. I have lots to say. For now...

1.Absolutely agree with Jon Brow. On all the rally games I've ever played, the AI is far too easy, even on expert. I understand full well that casual players need the difficulty not to be too hard. That's great! Keep that as it is for the casual players, but add "legend" difficulties for world beating players. It's so simple isn't it? This has had me aching with frustration over the years as I've been desperate for a challenge, but the maximum difficulty available for each game is too low. I really like the sliding scale idea someone suggested, but PLEASE don't set the maximum level available be too low - make the upper (and lower) limits RIDICULOUSLY high (and low) to cater for those who would want it, then it can please all sorts of people! I remember during 2006 especially: By then I could win every stage of every rally on WRC2 Extreme. I thought I couldn't get any faster. Then I found www.gzii.net (http://www.gzii.net), a brilliant site where players submit their best times. The times were absolutely staggering and I was nowhere - finally I had a challenge!!! Seeing the times that were possible, I was able to raise my game massively to a whole new level. I am entered as RJB on that site (in a Mitsubishi!).

The point is, I would like to see the AI in a new game match the kind of performance of the players on this site, which was in a different solar system to even the expert level AI of WRC2 Extreme.

2.This is a MUST - CUSTOMISABLE NAMES!
It amazes me how many games omit this absolutely fundamental feature which would massively increase the playability of the game. It's such a simple feature to add, yet you don't seem to find it at all these days!

3.NEVER EVER repeat what happened in WRC: Rally Evolved from 2005 where there were only 3 stages per rally. I actually thought there was some kind of terrible mistake when I first played it, only to find to my horror that's how it was meant to be.

4.Something I'd REALLY like to see, and for me essential - more competitors in a rally!
For too long now, the rally games have only had 14, 15, 17, 10! cars involved. I would so so like to see much more. I can't see why not have all the classes together in one event like in real life. I would be very happy to have something like blacked out windows or something as I totally understand rendering each driver perfectly would be a lot to ask. I don't care - I just HAVE to see more cars, whatever is sacrificed!

5.CUSTOMISABLE EVERYTHING! Anyone who has ever used Steven Young's fantastic GP2Edit will know what I'm talking about. How about making it so that each driver's performance, reliability, likelihood of driver error and so much more can be customised. This would elevate the game to legendary levels in my view.

That's all for now haha. Thanks.

[Rallylegend]

One of the most sensible things I've read this year!

In fact, this is the best thread I've read all year. I have lots to say. For now...

1.Absolutely agree with Jon Brow. On all the rally games I've ever played, the AI is far too easy, even on expert. I understand full well that casual players need the difficulty not to be too hard. That's great! Keep that as it is for the casual players, but add "legend" difficulties for world beating players. It's so simple isn't it? This has had me aching with frustration over the years as I've been desperate for a challenge, but the maximum difficulty available for each game is too low. I really like the sliding scale idea someone suggested, but PLEASE don't set the maximum level available be too low - make the upper (and lower) limits RIDICULOUSLY high (and low) to cater for those who would want it, then it can please all sorts of people! I remember during 2006 especially: By then I could win every stage of every rally on WRC2 Extreme. I thought I couldn't get any faster. Then I found www.gzii.net (http://www.gzii.net), a brilliant site where players submit their best times. The times were absolutely staggering and I was nowhere - finally I had a challenge!!! Seeing the times that were possible, I was able to raise my game massively to a whole new level. I am entered as RJB on that site (in a Mitsubishi!).

The point is, I would like to see the AI in a new game match the kind of performance of the players on this site, which was in a different solar system to even the expert level AI of WRC2 Extreme.

2.This is a MUST - CUSTOMISABLE NAMES!
It amazes me how many games omit this absolutely fundamental feature which would massively increase the playability of the game. It's such a simple feature to add, yet you don't seem to find it at all these days!

3.NEVER EVER repeat what happened in WRC: Rally Evolved from 2005 where there were only 3 stages per rally. I actually thought there was some kind of terrible mistake when I first played it, only to find to my horror that's how it was meant to be.

4.Something I'd REALLY like to see, and for me essential - more competitors in a rally!
For too long now, the rally games have only had 14, 15, 17, 10! cars involved. I would so so like to see much more. I can't see why not have all the classes together in one event like in real life. I would be very happy to have something like blacked out windows or something as I totally understand rendering each driver perfectly would be a lot to ask. I don't care - I just HAVE to see more cars, whatever is sacrificed!

5.CUSTOMISABLE EVERYTHING! Anyone who has ever used Steven Young's fantastic GP2Edit will know what I'm talking about. How about making it so that each driver's performance, reliability, likelihood of driver error and so much more can be customised. This would elevate the game to legendary levels in my view.

That's all for now haha. Thanks.

thank you for your reply RJB,

Althrough WRC Evolved had 3 stages it had also some good things, i mean it had the Mitsubishi Lancer WRC 2005 in it! :D And u met the cars who crashed or stoped on the stage.

What where some good points about the WRC games ? I thought the menu with the real videos and how the car menu where pretty cool with a cool intro movie and information about the drive.

WRC 04 Intro + Menu

JJFQ-b_GtEE

WRC 04 car menu video

uRxmUuc6ObY&feature=related

Sadly it isnt no more with Black Bean as developer

At 5. with costumisable u mean all the setups from the car? as in RBR ?


Beside that in a new career mode i was thinking about when you reach a level that you can rent a WRC car for an event , and if u crash or get some damage that you have to pay for it. so u have to sign good contract with sponsors and stuff like that ,as u can see in this video

vW2bcSQ4U5I&feature=channel_video_title

What do you think about that? That beside rally driving you also have to sign sponsor contracts for money , get mechanics and stuff like that? so its not just the racing in a game.

And last but not least i think this is what RBR makes so fantastic these days the MODS:

_YhYzXV_nf8&feature=related

[Bruce D]

I think by customisable he means you can edit the database of AI people, so that you could create your own series, like a classic WRC or something. Basically he's expanded on idea number 2. :) I like these ideas.

[Rallylegend]

What is the best way to discribe how the stages has to look like?

I thought about the keywords : challenging , difficult and unpredicted,

[mousti]

Yep, that's how it for sure has to be. And I think with examining onboards from several rallies, the developers should probably know what I mean! Also what u said about having a good sponsor deal and paying damage, that management aspect I like it too! Makes it very realistic to the real world!!

[Bruce D]

Personally I've always preferred the tight and twisty stages, where it's technical and needs some consistency and talent. These flat out stages aren't interesting. For eg. in RBR those USA stages aren't the greatest, you get nailed badly for the slightest mistake. I much prefer Japan.

[Rallylegend]

Busy with searching some things out, I am really amazed that many things already have been used in a rally game, and just got lost,... for example coop career , setups, big championships, different weather conditions ( dynamic weather system ?) .. how come many things are gone...

[mousti]

I think a rally game has less priority for developers, or way too less pressure from the guys who're paying for the development and hiring those guys also no attention to real rally..

[Plan9]

I always think that games involving cars are always most successful when they offer a variety of tracks, good graphics and realism (team environment, car modification- but within limits not NFS crap). Look at GT5 its almost a real world environment.
I would advise developers to look at getting the official liveried cars from the past- there is a huge market for nostalgia from people who had there formative years in the late 1980s- early 1990s. Look at what Renault and Williams F1 have done with their liveries.
As well as the standards of Lancia, Subaru Imprezas, Celicas, Evos, Carrollas, C4, Xsara, Focus & Escorts; also consider the following as these cars have a cult following including:
Hyundai Accent
Skoda Octavia & Fabia
Seat Cordoba
Suzuki SX4
Mazda 323
Nissan Sunny
Mitsubishis last Evos from 2004-5
2007-8 Impreza
205 Maxi
Xsara kit car

[I am evil Homer]

What does disc size have to do with anything? Sure you need it to install but PS3 and 360 have local HDs that you could download on to and access the game from there.

If RBR managed to do combine decent stages , weather and physics with enough car options, the rubbish that passes for rally games now is even less understandable. Hell Gran Tourismo for all its faults still offers plenty of envrionements and options.

Sure classic events and cars would be nice but start with some current cars and then go down the CMR2 route of unlocking certain cars. The most important thing is long stages with decent physics - a stage that takes 9-10 minutes to complete but is a challenge is IMO more satifying that 5 stages that take only 4 mins each.

[Plan9]

Remember GT5 before the upgrade could be downloaded? the rally car handling was weak as piss. It is better now.

What always got me was why they never made a game for the 2008 season? In terms of calendar it was long enough and challenging and of course it has nostalgic value as it was Subaru's last season. (if i can get an answer to this i will be fascinated).

It seems that the consensus here is that developers need to think about more realistic stages and cars. Having said that, the rally stages in the current WRC format are sprint style; the original Monte Carlo and Safari format is not used as much. Although next years MC will be 5 days.

[Rallylegend]

Some feedback is given, we will see what the developers will do with it. Althrough some more feedback is always welcome =D