How many drivers have we lost in 10 years in Indy Car?

[MAX_THRUST]

Please be respectful to personal feelings, and please understand this is not a Indy Car bashing question.

I know we have lost several drivers in recent years, and I am ashamed to say I can't name them all. The current cars have been used for a while now, and the format to encourage side by side racing has been in place for some time. We have seen some big crashes over the years. I know when Greg Moore passed away CART had been playing around with the Hanford wing to make racing closer as fans were becomnig tired of prossesional races. I know Indy Car came into a lot of stick for cars flying through the air on these forums in the past, where Champ cars fans were critiising Indy Car. In many ways we all saw this coming for some time. I know in Champ Car/CArt the only cars we ever saw take off, were often at Laguna Seca,(Oriel Servia, Patt Carpentier, and the death of the driver at the cork screw, who's name I'm sad to say I can't remember), Krosnoff @ Toronto, and ofcourse Greg's side ways flip at Fontana. Generally the bigger cars didn't seem to take off to much. I'm n ot saying CART was safer as fans, Marshalls and drivers have all lost their lives.
I thought it would be good to remeber those who have passed in recent years and to discuss the wing sizes on the cars that act as big aeroplane wings when the cars lift. Would flaps on side pods as Nascar have on the roofs make any difference?

[00steven]

2003 Tony Renna
2006 Paul Dana
2011 Dan Wheldon

[IceWizard]

I know in Champ Car/CArt the only cars we ever saw take off, were often at Laguna Seca,(Oriel Servia, Patt Carpentier, and the death of the driver at the cork screw, who's name I'm sad to say I can't remember)
The driver was Gonzalo Rodriguez.

[Anubis]

Trying to think of instances of CART era cars taking flight and I have to say I'm struggling. I can recall quite a few turning over through contact, mostly at Road America and Mid-Ohio, but that may just be selection bias on my behalf, as they are my favourite tracks, so I tend to remember those races more. Can't recall cars actually taking off, even on the ovals. Sure there were some, just none that come to mind.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Please be respectful to personal feelings, and please understand this is not a Indy Car bashing question.

I know we have lost several drivers in recent years, and I am ashamed to say I can't name them all. The current cars have been used for a while now, and the format to encourage side by side racing has been in place for some time. We have seen some big crashes over the years. I know when Greg Moore passed away CART had been playing around with the Hanford wing to make racing closer as fans were becomnig tired of prossesional races. I know Indy Car came into a lot of stick for cars flying through the air on these forums in the past, where Champ cars fans were critiising Indy Car. In many ways we all saw this coming for some time. I know in Champ Car/CArt the only cars we ever saw take off, were often at Laguna Seca,(Oriel Servia, Patt Carpentier, and the death of the driver at the cork screw, who's name I'm sad to say I can't remember), Krosnoff @ Toronto, and ofcourse Greg's side ways flip at Fontana. Generally the bigger cars didn't seem to take off to much. I'm n ot saying CART was safer as fans, Marshalls and drivers have all lost their lives.
I thought it would be good to remeber those who have passed in recent years and to discuss the wing sizes on the cars that act as big aeroplane wings when the cars lift. Would flaps on side pods as Nascar have on the roofs make any difference?

The guy who lost his life in the Corkscrew in '99 was as already mentioned Gonzalo Rodriguez, while driving for Penske.

I think the cars are safe enough, and so are the tracks. There's only ONE way to avoid fatal accidents, and that is banning motorsport. Of course the three we lost in this century is three too much, but it's not avoidable.

Of course the new car will bring more safety, but we don't have to become a second F1. F1 is doing too much in safety, which is ruining the sport.

[IceWizard]

The guy who lost his life in the Corkscrew in '99 was as already mentioned Gonzalo Rodriguez, while driving for Penske.

I think the cars are safe enough, and so are the tracks. There's only ONE way to avoid fatal accidents, and that is banning motorsport. Of course the three we lost in this century is three too much, but it's not avoidable.

Of course the new car will bring more safety, but we don't have to become a second F1. F1 is doing too much in safety, which is ruining the sport.
I agree that some of the changes following Senna's accident may have gone a bit far - the chicane that was added at Eau Rouge but which was fortunately removed again being an example. However, overall I don't see how it can be argued that safety is ruining F1. Look at this season. Vettel might have run away with the title but we've had some of the best racing seen for years. Of couse Indycar has the fundamental problem that ovals inevitably have walls and fences immediately adjacent to the track, but F1 shows that safety improvements don't have to be at the expense of the racing.

[Jag_Warrior]

Of course the new car will bring more safety, but we don't have to become a second F1. F1 is doing too much in safety, which is ruining the sport.

This, I cannot agree with at all. First, the IRL's struggle is not to become a second GP2 - F1 is not just on a different page, it's in a different book now. And second, I'm not aware of any safety innovation in F1 which is "ruining the sport". F1's popularity and the demand for F1 dates continues to grow. Within the past 12 months, two purpose built venues have been announced to bring Formula One to the United States. How many purpose built venues have been announced for the IRL in the past 12 years, not months?

IMO, the IRL needs to make the cars as safe as possible - and NEVER use the phrase "safe enough". That reminds me of the phrase "good enough for government work", and that phrase makes me livid. That suggests to me a mindset that is satisfied with just getting by. Unlike F1, they're still going to have a spec car; a single tub/chassis. And it's going to be around for years... not 12 chassis that will be totally revamped and restyled every 12 months. The IRL could/should use certain basic FIA standards (as is done in FIA spec series like GP2), when possible, but also mate those safety standards to the types of oval tracks that the IRL plans to be running on. The problem is, they will actually have to develop some longer term plan for the types of ovals (short ovals, super speedways, cookie cutters, flat tacks, etc.) they'll be running on. And based on what I've seen over the past two years, I'm not convinced that the IRL is really capable of doing that sort of (meaningful) longer term planning. Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears to me that they're just winging it.

Lastly, I think it would be wrong to try to assign blame to the sanctioning body, the chassis or the chassis builder or even the track in regard to Wheldon's death. But just as in what I do, there is a HUGE difference between "assigning blame" and determining root cause(s), and then doing things to address each and every primary root cause item. And if you ask me, making sure that the drivers (and the number of them on a particular track type) are actually qualified to be out there is a big part of that.

[Nem14]

2003 Tony Renna
2006 Paul Dana
2011 Dan Wheldon

Add:
1992 - Jovy Marcelo
1996 - Scott Brayton, Jeff Krosnoff
1999- Gonzalo Rodriquez, Greg Moore

To complete the list back to and including 1982 we would add:

1982 - Gordon Smiley, Jim Hickman

That's 10 drivers in 29 years.

The under tray of an Indy car functions like an upside down wing, If you get air under the car, it takes off.

NASCAR's 'flaps' are only one part of their solution for keeping cars on the ground.

[heliocastroneves#3]

This, I cannot agree with at all.

So you do like all the brand new Tilke circuits and their stupid run off areas? And the lots of penalties F1 is giving to drivers for the most stupid things?

I know you didn't say that, but I think IndyCar is way better then Formula Parade... Racing has it's risks and we have to accept them. F1 is overreacting, simple as that. Of course you may have your opinion (otherwise this world would be boring anyway), and I accept it, but I don't think the US is waiting for two races which are exactly the same (boring.....) Vettel gets pole, Vettel wins and maybe 3 or 4 overtakes in the whole race, that's what it's gonna be.

[MAX_THRUST]

I thought it was Gonzalez but didn't want to name the wrong person. I knew it was penske to, he was standing in for someone, can't remeber who, given a one off race weekend.
Interesting we only lost three drivers in the ten years. Maybe the question should have been how many cars have taken off in the last ten years. I know Dario had two, Mario at Indy, and a host of others, including Dan on a couple of occasions Texas and Indy. I do think the big wings and extra downforce were to blame in most, and the close style racing it encoraged. The smaller wings on the CART cars meant they were further apart on the track. There were several cars in the Las Vegas race that also took off when Dan did.
I have been thinking about what type of catch fencing they could use? PT talked about a plexiglass type system. Cost would be shocking, but if you do that where the fans sit and then extend the concrete walls higher with the safer barrier height extended too. Costly I know. But you stick huge sposr signs on them kinda like they do now behind the catch fencing, or was the nitice board infront of the catch fencing and ws it that change from fence to sign that caused the injury? Sorry to go on.

[Ranger]

Interesting you bring that up thrust.

This was uncomfortably similar ro Dan's crash, and is even more amazing that he is with us and racing today.

Ryan Briscoe, Chicagoland 2005:

Ryan Briscoe Chicago 2005 Crash - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZUxG-EYK9I)

[Phoenixent]

Interesting you bring that up thrust.

This was uncomfortably similar ro Dan's crash, and is even more amazing that he is with us and racing today.

Ryan Briscoe, Chicagoland 2005:

Ryan Briscoe Chicago 2005 Crash - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZUxG-EYK9I)

I just looked at Hi-Res photos of this wreck and there is one thing that stands out to me. The fence poles and cables are on the otherside of the fence eliminating the shot traps which is completely opposite of the fence at LVMS or any other SMI tracks.

[Phoenixent]

If Greg Moore's father sued Penske, and Fontana due to the stupid idea of having grass on the track infield than the Wheldon family should go after SMI and Burton Smith for having a known faulty fence design since the 2003 Kenny Brack crash at TMS....

[Phoenixent]

Sad thing is Starter that even Lexan at the hockey rink sometimes gives way to the hockey puck. A girl died in 2002 after being hit by a puck that crashed through the lexan at a Blue Jacket game. Like you said that we as fans must realize that it's a dangerous sport. I have been a fan since 1970 and have seen many drivers pass and it's truly sad but I know that it's a dangerous sport they are in and I pass that knowledge down to my children as my father passed to me. They know that a driver they like might be killed in a race and they like me will mourn but the sport continues on with out the over reaction that are going on with Dan Wheldon's passing.

[Anubis]

And the lots of penalties F1 is giving to drivers for the most stupid things?

Which differs from Indycar how exactly?!

[Anubis]

Additional thought on the "motorsport is dangerous" discussion and the fatality rate in different series. How does top tier NHRA (TF/AAFC) compare to Indycar over the last decade?

[Jag_Warrior]

So you do like all the brand new Tilke circuits and their stupid run off areas?

No, I didn't say that. But do I prefer certain Tilke circuits over certain IRL or Indy Car circuits? As one of my favorite people says, "you betcha!" I'll even throw in one of these to honor her: ;)


And the lots of penalties F1 is giving to drivers for the most stupid things?

I haven't agreed with some of the penalties, or that certain drivers (Schumacher, for instance) have received lighter penalties than others for the same/similar offense. But I would take the FIA stewards over the truly horrible job that Brian Barnhart has done this year. Completely ignoring rough driving by some and calling others to the carpet? Restarting an oval race in the rain? Really? Having safety trucks running backwards on a track at the start? Really? That the drivers still seem to have an overly difficult time exiting cars after crashes, while F1 drivers pop the padding out and out they go. A safety crew almost tearing a driver in half while yanking and pulling her from a burning car?


I know you didn't say that, but I think IndyCar is way better then Formula Parade... Racing has it's risks and we have to accept them.

"Better", in this case, is a purely subjective conclusion. I am "better" than George Clooney. My girlfriend recently said so... right after I gave her the iPad2 that she'd been dreaming of. But just as most racing fans would (and do) choose Formula One over the IRL, I'm relatively certain that most women would go for Clooney over me. That, I accept.

Sure, racing has its risks. But in most of life's endeavors, we seek to minimize risks, not necessarily eliminate them.


F1 is overreacting, simple as that. Of course you may have your opinion (otherwise this world would be boring anyway), and I accept it, but I don't think the US is waiting for two races which are exactly the same (boring.....) Vettel gets pole, Vettel wins and maybe 3 or 4 overtakes in the whole race, that's what it's gonna be.

Last I checked, F1 was doing just fine. The best drivers in the world still want to go there. Other than NASCAR in the U.S., the only other series that has cities, states and nations trying to lure a series with promises of big money and purpose built circuits is Formula One. People keep complaining that this tracks or that track aren't meant for "modern Indy cars". OK, then why doesn't someone build a track that is??? Hmm? :dozey: I've been watching F1 and American formula cars since the 70's and there have always been periods of domination in both series. But if you're claiming that F1 races have averaged only 3-4 overtakes the entire race, that tells me that you don't actually watch F1 races. I'd say Kamui has that many all by himself most race weekends. The DRS is a great idea, IMO - and it's greatly improved "the show". So no, I have no idea what you're talking about in regard to F1 being ruined by (recent) safety innovations. The fans have voted with their eyeballs and ticket stubs, and F1 seems to be leading by (at least) a couple of laps. Same with circuits and TV contracts.

But here's my bottom line, since I think it's a waste of time to compare F1 and the IRL (in its present state): safety should be a paramount concern to any sporting body. And as far as I know, no one has suggested doing anything to the IRL cars or tracks which would detract from the concept of "sport". What has detracted from the concept of "sport" are Brian Barnhart's favoritism and idiotic decisions over the past ten plus years, having "no name" drivers, who aren't qualified to be in GP3, on track with rather polished veterans, not knowing when it's raining, changing results AFTER the race, using gimmicks to cover up the fact that a better, long term plan is not in place, having a safety crew that continues to have issues, etc.

Accidents happen... but they should only happen once under a given set of circumstances. If people continue to get hurt under the same circumstances, week after week or race after race, that is (IMO) negligence. What happened here was horrible. But I accept that it was an accident. But the IRL has to learn from it. It cannot happen again, under similar circumstances.