Lewis in India [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

CaptainRaiden

28th October 2011, 12:00

Please take some time and make us laugh while trying to explain how not slowing down during double waived yellows is not worth a penalty.

Well, first off, there was miscommunication between the marshalls and the FIA. The marshalls were waving double yellows, but the safety light was showing green, which means that on Lewis' dashboard on the steering wheel, it would have also shown green, so why would he slow down then? It's anyway easier, from the driver cockpit, to see the big honking green light than those dinky yellow flags. On top of that, the car was removed, there was no debris, not even a marshall in sight, and hence the green. This is a stupid and bogus penalty and thoroughly undeserved.

Koz

28th October 2011, 12:07

Please take some time and make us laugh while trying to explain how not slowing down during double waived yellows is not worth a penalty.

That's the issue...
Green flags were also being waved at the same time?

Wasn't there a moron waving green flags for a while when D'Ambrosio went off? And a minute or so after the session was "red flagged"?

Knock-on

28th October 2011, 12:12

CaptainRaiden

28th October 2011, 12:16

I didn't watch it but would be interested if anyone can find a link.

All I read was that 2 drivers were penalised for setting their fastest times when double waved yellows were displayed, Marshalls were on track and a car was being removed. Seemed pretty open and shut to me.

However, now I hear all of this stuff and am confused about what actually happened.

I saw the practice live, and they showed a slow-mo shot of Lewis going through, seemingly full throttle, when a marshall was waving double yellows, and before and after the marshall, the safety warning light was blinking green, which means it would show green on Lewis' steering wheel as well. I'm assuming Mclaren will definitely appeal this DQ and the FIA would reconsider.

CaptainRaiden

28th October 2011, 12:17

Ant Davidson, BTW, said on the 5Live commentary that Lewis did not deserve the penalty.

Knock-on

28th October 2011, 12:25

He was reprimanded at the Spanish GP for not slowing down enough at Heikki's crash scene.

Perhaps they took that into account.

Strange one that.

First it was 4 drivers: LH, JB, JA and MW who got the reprimands.

Then we have the fact that the yellows were actually in a braking zone where the drivers weren't on the throttle anyway.

Martin Whitmarsh successfully argued and demonstrated that the drivers were slower around that corner but quicker in other parts of the sector which lead to the best lap time being set and therefore a penalty.

By issuing a reprimand rather than a penalty, the Stewards accepted this but according to the regs, they had to issue something ;)

ioan

28th October 2011, 12:33

Well, first off, there was miscommunication between the marshalls and the FIA.

And the driver needs to wait for the FIA instead of slowing down when his eyes see double waived yellows?
What next? Driver will obey track side signals from race marshalls only after they get written confirmation from Jean Todt?
Safety is now for playing around with it.

ioan

28th October 2011, 12:36

Strange one that.

First it was 4 drivers: LH, JB, JA and MW who got the reprimands.

Then we have the fact that the yellows were actually in a braking zone where the drivers weren't on the throttle anyway.

Martin Whitmarsh successfully argued and demonstrated that the drivers were slower around that corner but quicker in other parts of the sector which lead to the best lap time being set and therefore a penalty.

By issuing a reprimand rather than a penalty, the Stewards accepted this but according to the regs, they had to issue something ;)

If a drivers posts his fastest lap during a yellow or double waived yellow period than the driver didn't slow down enough in the sector where the incident happened, unless they suddenly found several seconds on other parts of the circuit, which I highly doubt.
Going a couple km/h slower is not what the rules are asking for, the drivers are supposed to really slow down in order to be able to avoid any possible danger to anyone on track or beside it.

ioan

28th October 2011, 12:38

That's the issue...
Green flags were also being waved at the same time?

Wasn't there a moron waving green flags for a while when D'Ambrosio went off? And a minute or so after the session was "red flagged"?

It's possible, yet again if there were yellows waived than he should have slowed down, as the slightest issue might end in an ugly way.

Knock-on

28th October 2011, 12:52

Lewis doesn't have a problem with it.

Hamilton said he had no argument with the stewards' decision.

"I was engaging the DRS (overtaking device, which boosts straight-line speed) when the yellow flags were on and you're not allowed to," he said

"I went in there and put my hands up and said I accept whatever penalty I get and they gave me one.

"I don't have any feelings. It is what it is. I'm a bit frustrated with myself as it's my fault - as usual.

"I just have to do what I can from wherever I qualify tomorrow. I have less hopes of pole - but tomorrow could be a different day."

Asked why he was being so self-critical, Hamilton replied: "I have no-one else to blame do I? There's only me driving."

Does anyone get the feeling that someone has sat him down and explained that his destiny is in his hands as he's the one driving. Comes across loud and clear.

CaptainRaiden

28th October 2011, 12:59

And the driver needs to wait for the FIA instead of slowing down when his eyes see double waived yellows?
What next? Driver will obey track side signals from race marshalls only after they get written confirmation from Jean Todt?
Safety is now for playing around with it.

Like I said before in my post, if you had cared to read it, is it possible he didn't see the yellow flags and only saw the big honking green light?? Since whatever warning light is being flashed by the FIA on the circuit, will be the same on the driver's dashboard, this confusion was obvious. Or is it THAT hard to understand?

Anyway, Lewis accepted the penalty, so I guess life goes on. Hopefully he doesn't start too far back. The weekend is already ruined for him.

ioan

28th October 2011, 13:01

Like I said before in my post, if you had cared to read it, is it possible he didn't see the yellow flags...

That's even worse.

ioan

28th October 2011, 13:02

Lewis doesn't have a problem with it.

Does anyone get the feeling that someone has sat him down and explained that his destiny is in his hands as he's the one driving. Comes across loud and clear.

I sure hope this is a sign of him getting to grips with his issues.

jens

28th October 2011, 13:04

A penalty for Hamilton? Well, at current rate it would be surprising if he didn't get one during a race weekend. :p :

CaptainRaiden

28th October 2011, 13:12

That's even worse.

Why? Lots of drivers have missed or ignored yellow flags in the past, hell, even black flags until they were told by their team via radio to come in. This was a simple confusion created by the stupid warning light system, and driver error as well. Although you can exaggerate it if you want. :)

Knock-on

28th October 2011, 14:43

Why? Lots of drivers have missed or ignored yellow flags in the past, hell, even black flags until they were told by their team via radio to come in. This was a simple confusion created by the stupid warning light system, and driver error as well. Although you can exaggerate it if you want. :)

Come on Captain. You know ioan better than that.

It would be simple confusion, the Indian track, the FIA and all us biased haters fault if it had of happened to Seb but as it's Lewis.......

:laugh:

Mia 01

28th October 2011, 14:51

Come on Captain. You know ioan better than that.

It would be simple confusion, the Indian track, the FIA and all us biased haters fault if it had of happened to Seb but as it's Lewis.......

:laugh:

It usually is Lewis, his reputation isn´t helping him.

CNR

28th October 2011, 23:10

with out trying to pick a fight
Hamilton accepts grid penalty - Yahoo! Eurosport (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/28102011/58/hamilton-accepts-grid-penalty.html)

"I was engaging the DRS when the yellow flags were out and you're not allowed to," Hamilton admitted

mstillhere

29th October 2011, 01:18

Incidently I wonder for how long is McLaren going to tolerate what seems to be an endless but colmpletly avoidable string of incidents. Is Lewis over F1 already? I think Button is actually benifitting from Lewis constant failures.

Garry Walker

29th October 2011, 08:58

Idiotic penalty as always.

steveaki13

29th October 2011, 11:02

Lewis should have done a Mika and gone through flat chat while holding his hand up.

Dont think Mika would get away with that these days.

Seriously though although there seemed to be a mis communication between the FIA and marshalls ultimatly if a driver has yellow flags waving in front of him he should slow down in case the green light bby FIA is wrong. The marshalls may still seem something on track that the FIA have missed. e.g debris or a marshall himself.

Flags are there right on the scene and should be first in priority.

F1boat

29th October 2011, 20:35

Interesting, nobody complains that Sergio gets the same penalty...

ioan

29th October 2011, 20:40

Interesting, nobody complains that Sergio gets the same penalty...

Who's Sergio? Does he drive for Mclaren? Is he Brit? ;)

Koz

30th October 2011, 04:45

Tumbo

30th October 2011, 10:12

someone needs to remove the lewis-massa magnets from their respective cars

ShiftingGears

30th October 2011, 10:25

That penalty for Massa was easily the most insanely moronic stewards decision this year.

Brown, Jon Brow

30th October 2011, 10:59

I have literally no idea what the rules are anymore.

ioan

30th October 2011, 11:10

The rules are OK, the interpretation is crappy or should I say totally random.

donKey jote

30th October 2011, 11:24

footage shows massa repeatedly checking his mirrors... question remains: did he see him? Ham himself says he can't see anything :p

Zico

30th October 2011, 11:24

I have literally no idea what the rules are anymore.

It is a strange one, I was stunned to hear that it was Massa who was getting the drive-thru!
The Stewards have access to Telemetry and more camera angles though, I can only imagine that it's something that isn't apparant to the rest of us. I hope they will release that information.

ioan

30th October 2011, 11:27

footage shows massa repeatedly checking his mirrors... question remains: did he see him? Ham himself says he can't see anything :p

he can't even see the double waived yellow flags so he might be right! :laugh:

Dave B

30th October 2011, 11:28

Hamilton's taken it on the chin before now for not seeing somebody in his blind spot, and it did appear that Massa checked his mirrors more than once. So either Massa didn't see the McLaren, in which case he wasn't paying attention; or he did but chose to turn in anyway.

Lewis has been punished for similar when it's been the other way round, so I think Massa's penalty was just.

wedge

30th October 2011, 11:35

Racing incident. Does anyone know what a racing incident is?

That penalty for Massa was easily the most insanely moronic stewards decision this year.

Visit the stewards 5 times in a season and collect a 'Get Out of Jail Free Card'.

Dave B

30th October 2011, 14:52

footage shows massa repeatedly checking his mirrors... question remains: did he see him? Ham himself says he can't see anything :p
James Allen's blog (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/10/massa-i-have-nothing-against-hamilton/) has Massa's explanation:

Asked how he did not know Hamilton was there when he turned in, given that he appeared to look several times in his mirrors as the McLaren closed up he said, “I knew he was on my side, but when I brake this is the important place and he was not on my side. I braked later than him. So am I supposed to back off and let him through? He was on the dirty side, I turned, he touched me at the back. If we were wheel to wheel I would not have turned.”

It's similar to Hamilton's accident with Kobyashi in Spa: if you don't see somebody in your mirrors you have to assume they're in your blind spot. You can't just turn in assuming they're not there. Hamilton (eventually) accepted this in Spa, so hopefully when Massa calms down he'll come to the same conclusion.

Garry Walker

30th October 2011, 15:00

That penalty for Massa was easily the most insanely moronic stewards decision this year.
Yes. Completely so.

Hamilton's taken it on the chin before now for not seeing somebody in his blind spot, and it did appear that Massa checked his mirrors more than once. So either Massa didn't see the McLaren, in which case he wasn't paying attention; or he did but chose to turn in anyway.

Lewis has been punished for similar when it's been the other way round, so I think Massa's penalty was just.
Just? The penalty was idiotic in the proportions that would embarrass your average labour voters who dont exactly shine with their intelligence.
The problem is that those idiots are hellbent on punishing someone for every little incident and what they are doing is just killing racing. Collisions always have happened and will happen, that is an inevitable fact of racing. These days they punish for every little thing. Idiots. Neither guy was to blame here, just two guys fighting for a place. I hope those idiot stewards get a really bad case of montezuma's revenge.

Dave B

30th October 2011, 15:15

Just? The penalty was idiotic in the proportions that would embarrass your average labour voters who dont exactly shine with their intelligence.
The problem is that those idiots are hellbent on punishing someone for every little incident and what they are doing is just killing racing. Collisions always have happened and will happen, that is an inevitable fact of racing. These days they punish for every little thing. Idiots. Neither guy was to blame here, just two guys fighting for a place. I hope those idiot stewards get a really bad case of montezuma's revenge.
Please read what I wrote. I said that as Lewis has been punished for similar, the penalty was just. As it happens I agree with you that racing incidents of this type don't deserve penalties, especially as both drivers lost time over it, but if you're going to set a precedent you then have to be consistent.

Brown, Jon Brow

30th October 2011, 16:26

Yes. Completely so.

Just? The penalty was idiotic in the proportions that would embarrass your average labour voters who dont exactly shine with their intelligence.
The problem is that those idiots are hellbent on punishing someone for every little incident and what they are doing is just killing racing. Collisions always have happened and will happen, that is an inevitable fact of racing. These days they punish for every little thing. Idiots. Neither guy was to blame here, just two guys fighting for a place. I hope those idiot stewards get a really bad case of montezuma's revenge.

The thing is contact between cars seems to be getting more and more common.

Knock-on

30th October 2011, 20:41

Massa is really getting on my tit. Because he's frustrated at Ferrari, he's looking for a vent to release his anger and that is Lewis.

He chucks one up the outside when there is no chance of making a pass and then gets pi$$ed off when lewis collides as he takes the racing line and then when he doesn't cover the inside, and gives Lewis a hole which he goes for, he slams in to him again.

Grease up Massa, accept you're Alonso's bitch and GTF out of the real racers way.

Nem14

30th October 2011, 20:51

Whamilton strikes again!

It always has been, and always will be, the responsibilty of the overtaking driver to make a safe pass.

Whamilton did not get close to being fully along side, and should have backed out of the passing attempt.

F1 officating is an inconsistant, politically motivate, joke. :BigLaugh

Malbec

30th October 2011, 21:29

But blaming the overtaking driver doesn't always work as we saw in Spa with Hamilton and Koby. That incident was obviously Hamilton's fault in that instance when all the factors are considered IMO, much like this was Felipe's fault. The fact he admitted to knowing Lewis was on the inside is a weird one, and suggests he was trying to prove a point but ended up looking like the fool.

The difference between Spa and today was that at Spa there were many possible lines of entry to the chicane whereas today there was only one, the racing line and Massa was on it. The amount of dust and marbles on the part of the track Hamilton was on meant that any move he made was likely to end in disaster and he was unable to brake in time, resulting in hitting Massa. I don't see where Massa was supposed to go, over the whole weekend we saw many drivers show what happened if you entered that corner too wide, they all went off-track. Or perhaps Felipe should have lifted off the throttle and waved Lewis by? Perhaps he could have gotten out of his car and lifted it out of Lewis' way?

It wasn't a coincidence that the accident happened just as Brundle was commenting that for that part of the track cars had to go one by one, not side by side....

Knock-on

30th October 2011, 22:12

Malbec

After the corner in question, the cars do go in single file but there is a chance to overtake going into that section. Hamilton was up and alongside and Massa admitted he knew he was there when he turned in.

Ever heard of causing an avoidable accident? Come on fella, face it. Massa has the ar$e and is looking for someone to vent his frustration on.

ioan

30th October 2011, 22:32

Grease up Massa, accept you're Alonso's bitch and GTF out of the real racers way.

Highly 'intelligent' post of the week end there.

Ranger

31st October 2011, 00:04

Completely idiotic decision - I lose brain cells trying to comprehend it.

F1 Felipe Massa and Lewis Hamilton Crash Indian GP 2011 Round 17 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-QXLnhAzRU)

Lewis was going for a gap that was always going to disappear.

Racing incident.

CNR

31st October 2011, 02:10

if massa and lewis keep going like this there is a fair chance of a big accident
i don't want to bring motogp in to this but look at the result.

555-04Q2

31st October 2011, 05:32

I'm not sure what the hell is going in F1 and the rules / giving penalties to drivers at the moment. Its a friggin lottery :crazy:

All I know is Hammy boy has had the worst year in his racing career by far. I think yesterday's incident put him up to double digits on the "whack-o-meter" this season. Hopefully the real Hamilton comes out to play in 2012, cause this 2011 Hamilton is a complete idiot and it's hard to believe that he was such a fantastic driver from 2007-2010 :(

ArrowsFA1

31st October 2011, 08:07

It's funny how when the stewards penalise Hamilton it's his fault and when they don't it's his fault :crazy:

These kind of incidents will happen as long as drivers are racing. If we want less racing and less overtaking then we're going the right way about it with these penalties. The penalty on Massa was harsh and the incident could, and should IMHO, have been put down to a racing incident, but such things don't seem to exist any more. It seems that any kind of contact, except in the first few corners of the race, result in a penalty of some kind.

As for Massa and Hamilton...someone should lock the pair of them in a room until they sort out whatever their differences are, and the sooner the better.

Big Ben

31st October 2011, 08:08

They should allow these 2 crash into each other as much they want as long as they don't involve other drivers too.

Malbec

31st October 2011, 08:24

After the corner in question, the cars do go in single file but there is a chance to overtake going into that section. Hamilton was up and alongside and Massa admitted he knew he was there when he turned in.

Ever heard of causing an avoidable accident? Come on fella, face it. Massa has the ar$e and is looking for someone to vent his frustration on.

Chance of overtaking going into that section? Noone who went into that corner off the racing line made it through the first corner of that section during the whole weekend thanks to the dust. Who else made it stick going off the racing line there, overtake or no overtake?

As with others I don't think Lewis should have been penalised either, it was a racing incident but penalising Massa was way too harsh. Where was he supposed to go?

Also I found it rather odd that Lewis chose to have a tribute to Bob Marley on his helmet this weekend where there were two recent motorsport deaths everyone else was choosing to commemorate this weekend. I don't know the reasons for that but odd choice nevertheless.

SGWilko

31st October 2011, 10:54

Highly 'intelligent' post of the week end there.

Take note and learn then...... :p

SGWilko

31st October 2011, 10:58

Also I found it rather odd that Lewis chose to have a tribute to Bob Marley on his helmet this weekend where there were two recent motorsport deaths everyone else was choosing to commemorate this weekend. I don't know the reasons for that but odd choice nevertheless.

Not really - Hammy likes his sarnies with Jammin......

Brown, Jon Brow

31st October 2011, 11:12

The Marley family were in touch with Lewis earlier in the season and asked if he would do a tribute at the Indian GP because he had commented on being a massive fan. It was planned a while ago, and all drivers paid tribute to Simoncelli and Wheldon too. Not so odd really. :)

At first I thought the image with the big hair was a tribute to Simoncelli.

In FP1 Ted Kravitz said Ron Dennis was on the phone and asked Lewis to change his helmet.

ioan

31st October 2011, 12:05

Also I found it rather odd that Lewis chose to have a tribute to Bob Marley on his helmet this weekend where there were two recent motorsport deaths everyone else was choosing to commemorate this weekend. I don't know the reasons for that but odd choice nevertheless.

Shows that he's out of touch with racing reality and more into music stuff.
Now I'll get my coat before henners comes around to tell us what his reality looks like.

ioan

31st October 2011, 12:06

Take note and learn then...... :p

I'd rather not. ;)

SGWilko

31st October 2011, 12:14

Shows that he's out of touch with racing reality and more into music stuff.
Now I'll get my coat before henners comes around to tell us what his reality looks like.

Didn't Lewis wear a black armband as a mark of respect - or does that not count?

Bagwan

31st October 2011, 13:24

He should have gone pink , to mourn the loss of the Pussycat Doll .
But , he wanted to "Stir it up" with Bob .

Remember , he kept a promise to the Marley family , despite pressure , and that should be commended .

Sing a redemption song , Lewis .

Complicated issue here for he and Felipe .
First , heavily complicated by the fact that the lead driver cannot see the other guy coming .

Yes , he looked in the mirrors , and , by the sounds of it , saw him at his side when he said he saw him braking earlier .
Lewis said he tried to back out , but was too far in before Felipe turned in on him .

So , from that much info , we know Lewis was backing out of a move he knew wouldn't work .
And we know also , that Massa believed he was backing out of it .

But , we also know Massa can't see him once he's behind the bolster blocking that quarter of his vision .
He made the assumption that Lewis had fully backed out of it when he clearly hadn't .
Mind you , Hamilton should know that there's a blind spot .

All told , the bagwan doesn't think there should have been penalty to either driver , or there should have penalty for both .

Or , more appropriately , a penalty to the FIA , for mandating blinders for all the drivers , so that the safety car can tighten the field .

Dave B

31st October 2011, 14:21

No woman no cry.

Bagwan

31st October 2011, 15:23

No woman no cry.

Good one , Dave .

wedge

31st October 2011, 15:41

Please read what I wrote. I said that as Lewis has been punished for similar, the penalty was just. As it happens I agree with you that racing incidents of this type don't deserve penalties, especially as both drivers lost time over it, but if you're going to set a precedent you then have to be consistent.

What consistency?

It's similar to the Maldonado incident at Monaco. Maldonado was looking in his mirrors into St Devote and still turned in on Lewis.

SGWilko

31st October 2011, 15:50

What consistency?

It's similar to the Maldonado incident at Monaco. Maldonado was looking in his mirrors into St Devote and still turned in on Lewis.

Dang, them columbians are a determined bunch init tho?

jens

31st October 2011, 16:05

BDunnell

31st October 2011, 19:22

He did indeed and all the drivers stood at the front of the podium before the start of the race and reflected on their thoughts. It was nice to see drivers like Barrichello and Trulli wear replica helmets as a sign of respect for the lost talents, and alot of the drivers wore helmets with small stickers containing tributes, but I think its disrespectful of fans to criticize drivers like Lewis for not having visible tributes. None of us understand the emotions of being an F1 driver and the pressure of risk these individuals face when competing in the sport they love, so fickle criticisms like the one's I've seen are naive IMO.

I also don't believe it is necessarily in any sense disrespectful not to join in with such a thing. Same goes for poppies or AIDS ribbons. I don't care if a particular TV presenter isn't wearing one! That's their choice.

Hawkmoon

31st October 2011, 21:09

I'll add my voice to the "racing incident, didn't deserve a penalty" crowd.

Having said that, the problem is still Hamilton. Now before you go dismissing this as just another Ferrari fan having a shot at a McLaren driver, give me a chance.

DC mentioned after the incident that the only way Hamilton's move was going to work was if the driver in front was compliant and I think he was spot on. Massa would have to basically said "after you sir" for that move to stick. What on earth made Hamilton think that Massa was going to be "compliant". How many times have they come together this year? Even after all those incidents Hamilton still thinks it's safe to stick one up the inside of Massa? The boy needs his head read!

I think this may be at the root of Hamilton's repeated incidents. Perhaps he thinks that the other drivers will be "compliant" and give him plenty of room to make his audacious moves stick. Unfortunately for Hamilton the other drivers don't seem to be in the mood for compliance.

Just my two cents.

CNR

1st November 2011, 02:39

would love to see a mr. bean episode on this
F1 race: Team bosses ask Hamilton and Massa to end feud - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/racing/indian-gp/F1-race-Team-bosses-ask-Hamilton-and-Massa-to-end-feud/articleshow/10555281.cms)

Bosses of McLaren (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/McLaren) and Ferrari (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Ferrari) have asked Lewis Hamilton (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Lewis-Hamilton) and Felipe Massa (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Felipe-Massa) to sort out their differences after they clashed for the sixth time in the season during Sunday's inaugural Indian Grand Prix (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Indian-Grand-Prix).
featherbrain championship

SGWilko

1st November 2011, 09:16

IMO Massa-Hamilton was a racing incident and no-one should have been penalized. But from Hamilton's perspective, perhaps what he should learn from this is that how other drivers in the past have felt in the situation in which he was now. Hamilton has claimed several times that he hasn't see the following driver in the mirrors and hence left no room. Now he was in a reverse situation by himself and surely that should turn his attention to taking into account, where the battling rival is - as he found out, you just cannot disappear, when the car slightly in front of you leaves no room!

The most mysterious thing about Hamilton was his complete lack of speed. In the past races he has been fast in the beginning of a race before wearing out tyres. But this time he was slow right from the get-go to the very end. How odd. At least he is still fast in qualifying...

* One final note: my take on the collision yesterday between Hamilton and Massa was that, as Massa said, he braked later than Hamilton on the grippy racing line, which is why you see him surge ahead half a car length just before he turns in. He told us yesterday evening he knew that Hamilton was inside before he braked and his mistake therefore was thinking that by braking later he’d got far enough ahead to turn in.

Compare this to the various battles Alonso and Webber have had lately, including in the opening laps on Sunday. Every time they try to pass they give each other room and that’s what Massa should have done in this incident. To turn in as he did, he knew that a collision was almost certain and that’s why he got a penalty.

Alonso and Webber respect each other and therefore do not collide. You can fill in the gaps for yourself. (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/10/hamilton-feeling-the-heat-from-button/)

Bagwan

1st November 2011, 11:20

Bad luck Johnny has said that Felipe got a penalty because he ran wide right , allowing Lewis down the inside .

Mia 01

1st November 2011, 16:35

DC thinks that Lewis was at fault.

DC: Lewis got off lightly | Planet F1 | Formula One News (http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/7284630/DC-Lewis-got-off-lightly)

SGWilko

1st November 2011, 16:37

Bad luck Johnny has said that Felipe got a penalty because he ran wide right , allowing Lewis down the inside .

And the gap Massa left in Monaco.................?

SGWilko

1st November 2011, 17:00

Bad luck Johnny has said that Felipe got a penalty because he ran wide right , allowing Lewis down the inside .

Herbert's quote was: "The decision to penalise Felipe Massa for his contact with Lewis Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided," Herbert wrote in his column for The National newspaper.

"I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call. After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data available to us, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him.

"There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made." (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95841)

Bagwan

1st November 2011, 17:26

Herbert's quote was: "The decision to penalise Felipe Massa for his contact with Lewis Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided," Herbert wrote in his column for The National newspaper.

"I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call. After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data available to us, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him.

"There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made." (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95841)

And , here's the part that he said , that pertains to what I said :
"You could see that Massa looked in his side mirror, so he knew Hamilton was on his left as they approached the left-hand turn. It appeared he was giving up the corner as he moved wide to the right, effectively opening the door for Hamilton to go down the inside on the left.

Only, Massa swept across in front of him, leading to contact.

There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made.

If Massa had not gone wide - that would have been a different scenario altogether. If there had been contact then, the blame would have been Hamilton's."

mstillhere

1st November 2011, 17:49

So Massa was supposed to move over and concede position to Lewis, right? Massa could have avoided the accident but of course LH couldn't have slow down and wait to pass somewhere else. The bottom line is the LH is in the history of F1 the only pilot that rather than evolving as a driver he involves.

It's unheard that a driver rather than maximising his chances and get as many points possible in a race does not miss a chance to mess his race up and not only, as seen many other times, he messes up other drivers races as well.

I think by now what people will remember about Lewis is how many accidents he has had in F1 rather than his accomplishments. LH the "plower" :(

truefan72

1st November 2011, 18:08

in every one of these incidents it was a rapidly faster Hamilton approaching a slower massa doing his best to slam the door shut on him.
Massa knew that he will be passed and like Smedley said was only out there to destroy his race

massa's outrage is phony, it is simply a way to mask his own severely lacking performance and more often than not a simple cry foe help in the wilderness
trying to block and hold cars up race after race ( actually he saves that tactic only for one driver) is pathetic

Malbec

1st November 2011, 18:57

Thats what I don't understand, why did Massa not defend the inside of the corner? He used the middle of the track and left space on his left, and then went wide to take the optimal racing line knowing lewis was on the inside. That justifies the stewards decison IMO.

Given the amount of dust offline and the effect that had on grip I can't understand where else Massa was supposed to go without severely compromising his entry into that corner. If he went inside he'd have lost loads of grip and conceded the grippier line to Hamilton. If he'd gone wider he'd have gone onto the dust as well, lost loads of grip and conceded the grippier line to Hamilton.

Massa took the only line into that corner that had decent levels of grip. Thats why he went back out wide.

He was ahead, why should he have conceded the corner to someone who wasn't halfway up his inside?

Malbec

1st November 2011, 21:27

This incident is going to split opinions and my opinion is unlikely to change as is yours. Its a case of agree to disagree. :)

Sure, but what I've not heard anyone explain is why Massa should have conceded the only non-dusty part of the corner to Lewis ;)

Mia 01

1st November 2011, 22:12

Hes not infantile, Lewis? Really he thought that Felipe would get up the corner? Deliberatley collission fom bort parts I would say. They don´t care any moore, both there teammates are superior to them. Cant see them doing anybetter next year.

Mia 01

1st November 2011, 23:14

And now some people on the big board enven pla the r..card as an excuse.

I say, lets see next year, perhaps he can score some more wins.

airshifter

2nd November 2011, 00:36

Sure, but what I've not heard anyone explain is why Massa should have conceded the only non-dusty part of the corner to Lewis ;)

Because at that point staying on the racing line would cause contact. I personally didn't think Massa deserved a penalty, but he knew Lewis was there. It was optimistic of Lewis to think he could make a move there, but it was stupid of Felipe to turn in on him also.

Knock-on

2nd November 2011, 08:46

Sure, but what I've not heard anyone explain is why Massa should have conceded the only non-dusty part of the corner to Lewis ;)

OK, I will try.

If it was a time trial, then the fastest way around the track is to take the racing line which is what Massa did.

As a faster driver, if you want to overtake someone, you need to get off the optimal line in order to effect a pass.

As the driver in front, you have a choice: Either you defend your position by moving off the racing line or leave yourself open to someone that has the balls to 'have a go'.

If you decide to not defend your line, and you can see someone has got up your inside, then you CANNOT just turn into them. You need to realise you have lost that position on the track.

This isn't rocket science and has always been like this. We are hardly reinventing the wheel here but merely restating the first rule of overtaking. If we can't agree this one, then I really am at a loss.

ShiftingGears

2nd November 2011, 11:34

The conclusion I made from India is that hiring ex-F1 drivers as stewards does not necessarily mean they won't fall into that same idiotic mentality that every collision warrants a penalty.

Knock-on

2nd November 2011, 13:13

I agree that he didn't deserve a penalty, but he played a part in causing the accident, as did Lewis. A pure racing incident which cost both drivers ultimately and didn't really need the stewards getting involved IMO. :)

I didn't see it as a racing accident. He turned in knowing a driver was there and deliberately caused a collision.

It wasn't that he didn't know he was there or missed him in his mirrors. He saw his nose and wheels with his own 2 eyes and turned in. That is as clear a penalty as you are going to get.

ArrowsFA1

2nd November 2011, 14:36

The conclusion I made from India is that hiring ex-F1 drivers as stewards does not necessarily mean they won't fall into that same idiotic mentality that every collision warrants a penalty.
To be fair to the stewards their actions are defined by the FIA's regulations and race incidents are more often than not referred to them by the Race Director for investigation. That then means they have to judge the incident according to the regulations which also define the possible penalties. Obviously the stewards can decide on "no further action" but the way the world is, not just F1 stewards, someone usually has to be blamed!

Perhaps rather than a time penalty, a stop/go or a grid drop the FIA should introduce something as simple as yellow & red cards...

555-04Q2

2nd November 2011, 14:42

After all the bullsh!t has settled here, the fact remains that Hamilton has become a serial "bumper" this season.

ArrowsFA1

2nd November 2011, 15:19

After all the bullsh!t has settled here, the fact remains that Hamilton has become a serial "bumper" this season.
The same could be said of Felipe Massa :)

jens

2nd November 2011, 16:16

It's interesting to think that the two current on-track "clashers" share some common background. Both were title contenders in 2008 and reached their ultimate career height that year. But in 2008 F1 was also criticized for having a 'weak' title fight as both contenders made a fair amount of mistakes. Now both are having perhaps their biggest low in their careers and the mood isn't particularly high for either of them. So it is not recommended for the two of them to share the same piece of track as they both have a negative aura around them currently. :)

mstillhere

2nd November 2011, 19:22

The same could be said of Felipe Massa :)

Yes with the difference is that LH has been behind and Massa in front. Now you are not going to tell me that Massa is not entitled to defend his position, right? Isn't what LH did in the last race when he had MW behind? Everyone knows it: if you rearend a car it's your fault. End of the story. Remarkably though Lewis is not learning his lesson....oh...I am sorry...lessonS.

It's up to the driver behind to find a way how to pass the car in front...................without incident.

And let's not forget why Lewis started from the back: failure to follow the rules. I mean the guy needs to race in his own f1.

I personally believe that Massa is the worst driver Ferrari has ever had and on track right now as well. However, if Lewis keeps in crashing into Massa's car well it's that speks volumes on what kind of driver Lewis is.

Also now that Button is more popular than Lewis in GB I hope that that's not going to cause Lewis any additional emotional issue otherwise he wont even make to finish the race. Oh man....poor Lewis

CNR

2nd November 2011, 22:58

DC slams Massa penalty call | Setanta (http://www.setanta.com/ien/Articles/2011/11/02/DC-slams-Massa-penalty-call/gnid-116020/\)

David Coulthard says that he is bemused as to why Felipe Massa was handed a drive-through penalty after his incident with Lewis Hamilton during Sunday’s F1 race in India.

kfzmeister

3rd November 2011, 04:02

“Making these types of calls is one of the real difficulties with a complex sport like Formula 1, but it was almost as if they felt that - with Lewis receiving so many decisions against him this year - they were trying to redress the balance.

“A bit like in football when a referee sends someone off in controversial circumstances and the crowd is on his back, he is more disposed to send a player from the opposition off.”

This is exactly what the whole thing felt like to me when i heard Massa had gotten the penalty!

555-04Q2

3rd November 2011, 05:05

The same could be said of Felipe Massa :)

No way! Hammy taking him from behind (excuse the pun) is not Felipe Baby "bumping" into someone ;)

ArrowsFA1

3rd November 2011, 08:25

It's up to the driver behind to find a way how to pass the car in front...................without incident.
Agreed, but the "without incident" part does depend somewhat on the driver in front recognising the right time to defend or to concede. He can't simply drive as if the car behind isn't there.

While Lewis has certainly put his car in positions where these kind of incidents can happen I certainly wouldn't give Felipe high marks for his defensive driving.

Hawkmoon

3rd November 2011, 11:12

Hindsight is a great thing. During the race when it was annouced Massa had been given a drive through penalty, DC remarked "drive through for Massa, exactly as predicted Martin". If he thought that in the time between the penalty and the incident itself, then he can't be too critical of Herbert as the decision was made in the same short space of time.

I don't think many people agreed with the penalty as it was clearly a racing incident, but thats the way F1 has gone of late. Lets face it, Lewis would have a pretty clean record this year if every incident was handled correctly and the racing incidents were separated from the true punishable offenses.

Brundle had actually predicted that Hamilton would get a penalty. Coulthard's comment of "exactly as predicted" was his way of saying "we got it wrong again". Both Brundle and DC were perplexed by Massa's penalty. Neither of them thought it was deserved both at the time the collision occurred and when the penalty was announced. Hindsight had nothing to do with it.

ArrowsFA1

3rd November 2011, 12:06

Mark Webber believes that Formula 1's race stewards should be less eager to hand out penalties for collisions
Mark Webber says stewards should be more lenient in handing out penalties - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95863)

wedge

3rd November 2011, 13:38

555-04Q2

3rd November 2011, 13:41

Mark Webber says stewards should be more lenient in handing out penalties - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95863)

He's just stating the obvious that most kids could work out for themselves :p :

555-04Q2

3rd November 2011, 13:41

Brundle had actually predicted that Hamilton would get a penalty. Coulthard's comment of "exactly as predicted" was his way of saying "we got it wrong again". Both Brundle and DC were perplexed by Massa's penalty. Neither of them thought it was deserved both at the time the collision occurred and when the penalty was announced. Hindsight had nothing to do with it.

100% correct :up:

jens

3rd November 2011, 14:47

I personally believe that Massa is the worst driver Ferrari has ever had and on track right now as well.

Forgot Luca Badoer?
:p :

AndyL

3rd November 2011, 14:54

Forgot Luca Badoer?
:p :

Not to mention Fisichella. Felipe Massa's not even in the bottom 2 of drivers Ferrari have had since they signed Felipe Massa!

i_max2k2

3rd November 2011, 16:15

As much of a bad season that massa is having, he is certainly not as bad of a driver everyone is referring to, he has certainly lost a lot of confidence and his position in the team but pre hungry 2009, he was a much better driver, and if he is given the right conditions he might prosper, he has been getting close and ahead sometimes with this 6/10th teammate a lot in the last few races. I won't be as harsh on him as the results seem to make him at this point. I really hope he can come out better after this season, and up to speed with FA in 2012, which I think he can.

kfzmeister

3rd November 2011, 20:54

The same could be said of Felipe Massa :)

Mention the people that Massa has bumped? I'll help you with Hamilton: Maldonado, Kobayashi, Webber, Massa (multiple times), Button, probably forgetting some....
(Hungary's dumb arse move in the middle of the race saw a Force India driver have to resort to a dangerous avoidance maneuver)

kfzmeister

3rd November 2011, 20:58

Lets face it, Lewis would have a pretty clean record this year if every incident was handled correctly and the racing incidents were separated from the true punishable offenses.

Not at all. Simply Monaco's showing puts your comments in complete doubt!

Robinho

3rd November 2011, 21:21

Not to mention Fisichella. Felipe Massa's not even in the bottom 2 of drivers Ferrari have had since they signed Felipe Massa!

good point, but I thinnk that says more about Ferraris recent brainfarts than Massa's quality

Mia 01

4th November 2011, 08:22

OK, Felipe isnt the most clever guy on track, but Lewis is a bit worse.

Lewis is a broken man for now, hope things will be better next year.

ArrowsFA1

4th November 2011, 08:39

Mention the people that Massa has bumped?
Hamilton (multiple times) :p

Look, my more serious point is that it takes two drivers for there to be a clean overtaking manoeuvre. Yes, there is more responsibility on the one attempting the pass to pick the right opportunity but we've seen cases in the past where the driver being passed has simply turned in regardless.

Hamilton had no problem with Webber in Korea where the McLaren and Red Bull went wheel to wheel for corner after corner with no contact or need for stewards to become involved. That, I think, shows the different levels of respect between drivers.

While I'm in no way absolving Hamilton of responsibility I do think there is a lack of respect between him and Massa, and that seems to be more from Massa's side IMHO for whatever reason. That may have led Massa to be more uncompromising when it comes to Hamilton attempting to pass him and has contributed to (not caused) the incidents between them.

Mia 01

4th November 2011, 18:41

Nothing to se. Lewis is a broken man, will he win another race?

Mia 01

4th November 2011, 19:34

Its not that easy to go one with your life when you broke up with your partner, I know.

Lewis needs to find a new girl who really lowes him, or he is lost moore than now.

donKey jote

4th November 2011, 22:12

Go on Mia, do it for the lads... a win-win for the forum ! :andrea: :p

Jag_Warrior

6th November 2011, 03:51

Its not that easy to go one with your life when you broke up with your partner, I know.

Lewis needs to find a new girl who really lowes him, or he is lost moore than now.

Do I hear that Lewis and Miss Pussycat Doll have split up? Chin up, Lewis! I hear that Kim Kardashian is now available! :bounce: And the (lone) positive about that: any clothes that you bought for Nicole will also fit Kim... from the waist down anyway. :p :