Slightly O/T: Overall Health of Open Wheel Oval Racing

[FormerFF]

For those of you who live in areas where open wheel oval track racing is popular, do you have a feeling for how the health of the sport is? I live in the stock car belt, and there's not much in the way of open wheel oval racing around here.

There are two things that are making me ask this: first, the 2012 Indycar schedule being somewhat oval-light, and second, the struggles that our local short tracks are having. Lanier Speedway, which is across the street from Road Atlanta, recently announced that it would not be running its regular schedule next year, and that the track property is up for sale. Lanier is one of the few paved short tracks we have in the state, and about 20 years ago the Busch series was held there for a few years, and it was one of the more successful of the short tracks. The reason given was a lack of attendance by fans and small fields, particularly Late Model. There are lots of dirt ovals, but these seem to open and close at random, with a few long running exceptions. I've read stories that short tracks have been having attendance issues since the mid 2000's.

So, how's the health of short tracks in your area?

[SoCalPVguy]

Re. Overall Health of Open Wheel Oval Racing


Patient is fading fast, losing all signs of life, pulse weakening, breathing labored. Patient was very ill three years ago with a split personality disorder, seemed to temporarily regroup and gain strength only to have viruses from within strike again and weaken body. Patient in "serious" condition, another year of downward trending and could reach "critical". Bleeding green blood more each year, green infusions from donors reducing. However patient just lost a small cancer to another larger more healthy patient so attitude may improve. Patient prefers exposure but is stuck in anonymity through own choice, also weakening spirit.

[anthonyvop]

"Open Wheel" racing is on life support and only has minimal brain activity is certain mid-western parts of the US that refuse to face the inevitable.

Formula Car racing, on the other hand, can be heading to a period of spectacular growth if only the "Open Wheel" people would just go away.

[Chris R]

"Open Wheel" racing is on life support and only has minimal brain activity is certain mid-western parts of the US that refuse to face the inevitable.

Formula Car racing, on the other hand, can be heading to a period of spectacular growth if only the "Open Wheel" people would just go away.

what do you mean? Formula car racing vs. open wheel racing? not arguing - just curious as to your definitions etc.......

[anthonyvop]

what do you mean? Formula car racing vs. open wheel racing? not arguing - just curious as to your definitions etc.......

When Indy people talk "open Wheel" they usually mean Sprint/Midget/WoO racing which has had nothing to do with what has been IndyCar/CART/Champ Car/IRL since the early 1970's!

[Chris R]

When Indy people talk "open Wheel" they usually mean Sprint/Midget/WoO racing which has had nothing to do with what has been IndyCar/CART/Champ Car/IRL since the early 1970's!

got ya, FWIW, since I am one of the people who often says "AOWR" - I am always thinking of Indycar/CART/IRL/Champcar and before that whatever lived at the top rung of the ladder system... However, I think you are right in your assessment.... Although, I think the WoO etc. are actually doing alright are they not?? (although far from "big time" these days)....

[anthonyvop]

got ya, FWIW, since I am one of the people who often says "AOWR" - I am always thinking of Indycar/CART/IRL/Champcar and before that whatever lived at the top rung of the ladder system... However, I think you are right in your assessment.... Although, I think the WoO etc. are actually doing alright are they not?? (although far from "big time" these days)....

NASCAR is doing better. Neither have anything to do with the type of racing that is ICS.

IndyCar has more in common with GP2, F3, GP3 and even F1 than it does with WoO, Sprints, Midgets or anything on Dirt.

[Chris R]

NASCAR is doing better. Neither have anything to do with the type of racing that is ICS.

IndyCar has more in common with GP2, F3, GP3 and even F1 than it does with WoO, Sprints, Midgets or anything on Dirt.

Of course NASCAR is doing better, that goes without saying. I agree with your linking GP2 & 3 etc. more with Indycar than dirt racing....

My point was that as a stand-alone type of racing (and end in and of itself as opposed as a means to an end) WoO and other forms of dirt oval racing are doing ok - although they are no longer the "road to Indy" - if they are a stepping stone for anything, it is NASCAR.....

That being said - I have always preferred paved road course racing......

[beachbum]

Some people forget the "old days" of CART when Champcars ran on only a handful of ovals, often using the same track multiple times. In 1981, they ran Phoenix (twice), Milwaukee (twice), Atlanta (one day, but 2 races - shades of Texas), and Michigan (twice) . Indy wasn't even part of the CART championship that year.

The problem has always been the availability of suitable tracks. With SMI and ISC now controlling almost all of the ovals, they control the future of open wheel oval racing other than Indy. Neither show much interest right now in the future of open wheel. You can't run at a track if the track ownership isn't interested, unless you want to self-promote, which is a slippery slide. In a sense NASCAR self promotes as it owns ISC.

The other problem is economics and a general decline in auto racing popularity. Almost every racing series is seeing serious pressure for sponsorship and find it much harder to get. Even in NASCAR, some teams are closing up (Red Bull, Rusty Wallace Racing, KHI) and others are running start and park. Even the big teams like Hendricks need multiple sponsors to cover one car for a year. Attendance is down everywhere, even stalwarts like NASCAR at Bristol, which used to sell out every race. Now- lots of aluminum hats.

Ovals may put on great racing (at times), but the whole experience has problems. Many of the events have the main event and one or two support races. The track is often in the middle of nowhere and even if it isn't, once a fan is at the track, they are stuck there. As an entertainment event, people have other options.

One advantage of the street race is the street festival, where the fan has more to do around the track. A road race offers more opportunities for support races, as there are more road race series for big events than there are oval series. Other than NASCAR and Lights, what series can support Indy Car on the bigger tracks?

Pundits have predicted the decline in auto racing for decades. As painful as it is to admit, the popularity of the past couple decades may be waning. All racing may be back to niche sport status.

As an aside, exactly when did the "split" start? Open wheel racing has been Indy and "the rest" for a long time, with the other races mostly support for Indy and a place where "specials" could be used more than once. In the 50's, many Indy cars were run at Indy only or maybe Milwaukee or Langhorne.

[Chris R]

Beachbum makes a good point - in the age of the roadster and even into the mid 1960's, those cars were actually not used all that much - most of the championship was run on dirt....

The other thing that occurs to me is that auto racing is not the novelty it once was. Way back when half the people who attended any given race might not even have had a car. Today EVERYONE does and you are going to find more than a few cars in the parking lot that could actually run with the cars on the track (albeit perhaps not safely or reliably) given a decent driver and a little fine tuning....

In short, racing no longer has much of a wow factor in the world of extreme sports.... it is more like baseball - a sport for the purists and statistics people. There is nothing wrong with that - but perhaps it is time to consider that we don't need new speed records as much as we need entertaining racing and a sport that clearly highlights both man(and woman) AND machine with perhaps a little more emphasis on the human aspect than we have seen in recent years. Let F-1 be about the uber-engineered cars with robot drivers - let Indycars be about drivers with personality driving "real" race cars - overpowered, underweight, difficult to handle machines that you or I would be a little scared to drive (as opposed to any of the current top flight series where I am quite sure I could handle the car and drive it reasonably fast if I could squeeze my fat a$$ into it, even if I couldn't drive them like Vettel or Power or Busch or even qualify for the race I have little doubt I wouldn't hurt myself or anyone else.....)

[SarahFan]

Is it just ovals?

Toronto is a ghost town

Edmonton is 1/2'the initial year

Belle isle will fail again

Cleveland
Houston
Denver
Vancouver
Mexico city
Monterrey

I've been going to LBGP for 20 years and it's 1/2 what it was in the 90's


I've going to

[chuck34]

Is it just ovals?

Toronto is a ghost town

Edmonton is 1/2'the initial year

Belle isle will fail again

Cleveland
Houston
Denver
Vancouver
Mexico city
Monterrey

I've been going to LBGP for 20 years and it's 1/2 what it was in the 90's


I've going to

Quite you. Don't you know that road courses and particularly street races are the savior of CART? Oh wait ...... what are we talking about again?

[slorydn1]

Some people forget the "old days" of CART when Champcars ran on only a handful of ovals, often using the same track multiple times. In 1981, they ran Phoenix (twice), Milwaukee (twice), Atlanta (one day, but 2 races - shades of Texas), and Michigan (twice) . Indy wasn't even part of the CART championship that year.

The problem has always been the availability of suitable tracks. With SMI and ISC now controlling almost all of the ovals, they control the future of open wheel oval racing other than Indy. Neither show much interest right now in the future of open wheel. You can't run at a track if the track ownership isn't interested, unless you want to self-promote, which is a slippery slide. In a sense NASCAR self promotes as it owns ISC.

The other problem is economics and a general decline in auto racing popularity. Almost every racing series is seeing serious pressure for sponsorship and find it much harder to get. Even in NASCAR, some teams are closing up (Red Bull, Rusty Wallace Racing, KHI) and others are running start and park. Even the big teams like Hendricks need multiple sponsors to cover one car for a year. Attendance is down everywhere, even stalwarts like NASCAR at Bristol, which used to sell out every race. Now- lots of aluminum hats.

Ovals may put on great racing (at times), but the whole experience has problems. Many of the events have the main event and one or two support races. The track is often in the middle of nowhere and even if it isn't, once a fan is at the track, they are stuck there. As an entertainment event, people have other options.

One advantage of the street race is the street festival, where the fan has more to do around the track. A road race offers more opportunities for support races, as there are more road race series for big events than there are oval series. Other than NASCAR and Lights, what series can support Indy Car on the bigger tracks?

Pundits have predicted the decline in auto racing for decades. As painful as it is to admit, the popularity of the past couple decades may be waning. All racing may be back to niche sport status.


As an aside, exactly when did the "split" start? Open wheel racing has been Indy and "the rest" for a long time, with the other races mostly support for Indy and a place where "specials" could be used more than once. In the 50's, many Indy cars were run at Indy only or maybe Milwaukee or Langhorne.

Beachbum has hit the nail squarely on the head. This can be illustrated just by using my own family as an example. There are 6 of us, 5 sons and a daughter. We range in age from mid 30's to mid 50's. I am in my early 40's. 2 of my older siblings have many children, all of them adults now. I have 3 kids, 2 of whom are adults, and a 12 year old. My little brother has no children. Between the 17 of us, 16 of whom are adults, only 2 of us follow racing. My little brother and I are rabid Nascar fans, but we also follow and appreciate Indy Car and F1-and I also like ALMS and Grand Am.

Now, as rabid as I am when it comes to racing (my yearly vacation schedule is centered around the major holiday's-Speedweeks, Memorial Day weekend and the Nascar Championship weekend) I have been an utter failure at getting my 3 children to follow racing. They just don't like it, and have never cared for it really. My older siblings and their children can only name a few race car drivers (like Mario Andretti, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon) and that's only because of news stories and the like. Not to long ago my oldest brother referred to Jimmie Johnson as "that guy that drives the Lowe's car that wins all the time".

As far as my family is concerned, when my little brother and I are dead and gone, our family's interest in racing is over. I fear that this is a similar situation in many many families around the world.

Unlike a stick and ball team, like say the Chicago Bears, New York Yankees, Manchester United (etc etc etc) where a whole geographical area is tied to the success and failure of that team, where everyone is talking about that last game, wearing the gear, (etc) racing just doesnt get that "bump". My dad used to make it a big deal of watching the Indy 500 every Memorial Day, and and I'm guessing what was the World 600 back then on Wide World of Sports so I was hooked early. But, my neighborhood friends growing up, not so much. It was all about the Bulls, Bears, Blackhawks and Cubs (NW Suburbs, so it was "forbidden" to like the White Sox, lol) with them. It wasn't until high school and that all important driver's license that I started hanging out with others that liked racing.

After I moved from Chicago to eastern NC in 1991 I have still tried to follow my teams as much as possible (easier now because of the internet) but my first love is racing. I try as hard as I can and try to convince as many of my friends and coworkers to start following it (and not just NASCAR either) but they just don't get it. All they hear see and read is that "X" is wrong with NASCAR, that "Y" is wrong with Indy Car, and that "Z" is wrong with F1 and they give up before they even start.

Sorry I'm rambling on so long, I am at work and keep getting interrupted, this one post has taken me a couple of hours to type, as I keep losing my focus. But Beachbum has definitely nailed it. What to do about it? I really don't know. Maybe a better TV deal?At least NASCAR has the benefit of a major tv deal and lots of exposure. Indy car spends most of its season hidden on a channel that most casual fans have never heard of, and when they see it on DSPN/ABC they throw their hands up in the air in disgust on how horrible the coverage is.

[beachbum]

The other thing that occurs to me is that auto racing is not the novelty it once was.

In short, racing no longer has much of a wow factor in the world of extreme sports....
I think you captured the main issues in those 2 sentences. Add in the fact that most people look at cars as mostly a necessary evil, and the "show" just doesn't captivate the audience as it once did. Watching "daredevils" on wheels was once a big deal. Now we have X games that cater to extremes and even then extreme isn't enough.

It is impossible to roll back the changes in public interests. Right now, it seems almost all racing series are just trying to keep the dwindling audience they still have or poach from another series.

[FIAT1]

I believe that without proper sponsor for any event there is no chance to make it. I remeber Milwaukee when Miller beer was a sponsor or Chicago with Target and RA with Texaco with all promotions and free tickets they packed the places and at a same time new fans where born. What to do I don't know but first step would be stop conversation and front page news about race control and mediocre driver leaving, when you have great battle for chamionship and you have a new car to promote. Takes time to build what was destroyed.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Takes time to build what was destroyed.

Yes, but building hasn't started yet. Attendance and ratings are the shadow of what they were in 2008, the year of unification.

[FIAT1]

Yes, but building hasn't started yet. Attendance and ratings are the shadow of what they were in 2008, the year of unification.

Buy destroyed I was reffering to 90's cars, stars and the fan numbers. Forgive me for any confusion. I still think that removing bb, focus on talented racers, fast cars with big hp and 5 mil championship would be good start.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Buy destroyed I was reffering to 90's cars, stars and the fan numbers. Forgive me for any confusion. I still think that removing bb, focus on talented racers, fast cars with big hp and 5 mil championship would be good start.

I agree. I'm just disappointed. In 2008, full of optimism after reunification, I never thought the series will be in worse shape in three years time.

[chuck34]

I agree. I'm just disappointed. In 2008, full of optimism after reunification, I never thought the series will be in worse shape in three years time.

And yet it seems that everyone agrees that it was the split causing the decline? But if someone were to point out that the split simply coinsided with a natural point at which a decline was almost inevitable (loss of HUGE stars, cap in speeds, etc) they are generally laughed off this forum. Strange that. Hmmm.......

[Chris R]

Is the series really in worse shape 3 years later? There are more cars on the grid, more sponsors on the sidepods, new manufacturers coming next year. etc.... I am not saying it is all rosy and what not - but I do think it is a bit of an overstatement to say it is WORSE than 2008.....

I will say, if it is worse, so is everything else in the economy - so it may not be worth reading into it too far....

My point is, there is enough stuff to feel doom and gloom about (ugly new car, failed promotion, BB) - the position of the series relative to 2008 is not really one of them......

[Chris R]

And yet it seems that everyone agrees that it was the split causing the decline? But if someone were to point out that the split simply coinsided with a natural point at which a decline was almost inevitable (loss of HUGE stars, cap in speeds, etc) they are generally laughed off this forum. Strange that. Hmmm.......

good points - but I think it is hard to argue that the split didn't speed things up tremendously and it also hindered the series(s) from developing new stars and from developing a unified way to deal with high speeds etc. The split effective stopped either series from addressing the macro issues effectively since they were more worried about each other....

[chuck34]

Is the series really in worse shape 3 years later? There are more cars on the grid, more sponsors on the sidepods, new manufacturers coming next year. etc.... I am not saying it is all rosy and what not - but I do think it is a bit of an overstatement to say it is WORSE than 2008.....

I will say, if it is worse, so is everything else in the economy - so it may not be worth reading into it too far....

My point is, there is enough stuff to feel doom and gloom about (ugly new car, failed promotion, BB) - the position of the series relative to 2008 is not really one of them......

I agree there are many positive things about this series. However, the TV ratings and track attendence aren't among them.

[chuck34]

good points - but I think it is hard to argue that the split didn't speed things up tremendously and it also hindered the series(s) from developing new stars and from developing a unified way to deal with high speeds etc. The split effective stopped either series from addressing the macro issues effectively since they were more worried about each other....

I'm not saying that the split didn't make things bad or worse or whatever. All I'm saying is that I honestly think that there would have been a fairly significant decline in Open Wheel racing from the peak in '95 to now with or without a split. There are many out there that think IndyCar racing would still be topping NASCAR and rivaling (or even topping) F1 without the split. I just don't see it.

Now as for me, I don't think that my interest has gone down much over the years (or up for that matter, always been a fan since I can remeber '84? or so). My personal peak in interest was probably '97 when we were getting lots of "my guys" (sprint, midget, etc.) in the series, had engine and chassis competition. But I see the future looking bright too with engine competition next year, hopefully aero kits in '13, and maybe just maybe different chassis after that. Now if we could just somehow convince the sprint and midget guys to come back, but honestly I don't know how that ever happens. :(

[DBell]

good points - but I think it is hard to argue that the split didn't speed things up tremendously and it also hindered the series(s) from developing new stars and from developing a unified way to deal with high speeds etc. The split effective stopped either series from addressing the macro issues effectively since they were more worried about each other....

IMO, right on the nose, Chris. I think Chuck's points are part of the equation, but the split was the a-bomb. I think if they had merged as one series by 2001,'02, then it may have been recoverable. There was still some money in the sport at that point. But the merge in '08 was only out of necessity. Most of the sponsors were long gone by this point and the family was cutting off TG's money flow. No capital to invest in the sport, so it's just been a matter of trying to survive. The split just went on way too long before it was over. In the entertainment and advertising world, 12 years is forever and a day.

With attendance and TV ratings where they are, I think it exposes what the really damaging aspect of the split was, the fan base. Many have left long ago and very few new fans were added. What's worse, is that the fan base that was left is horribly fractured and want completely different things. No matter what is done about anything, there will be a section of fans that will be outraged. No way to win for IndyCar.

[DBell]

I'm not saying that the split didn't make things bad or worse or whatever. All I'm saying is that I honestly think that there would have been a fairly significant decline in Open Wheel racing from the peak in '95 to now with or without a split. There are many out there that think IndyCar racing would still be topping NASCAR and rivaling (or even topping) F1 without the split. I just don't see it.

Now as for me, I don't think that my interest has gone down much over the years (or up for that matter, always been a fan since I can remeber '84? or so). My personal peak in interest was probably '97 when we were getting lots of "my guys" (sprint, midget, etc.) in the series, had engine and chassis competition. But I see the future looking bright too with engine competition next year, hopefully aero kits in '13, and maybe just maybe different chassis after that. Now if we could just somehow convince the sprint and midget guys to come back, but honestly I don't know how that ever happens. :(

I agree with much of what you said. You may be right about the decline of IndyCar. I find it doubtful that Penske and the rest would ever give someone absolute power on how to run the series and that was CART's major flaw,imo. But I could also see a IndyCar series that would be very successful if the split never happened. If they had remained strong in North America and developed a strong international following, well I can see that as something that very well could have happened. They didn't have to beat NASCAR in the US and beat F1 internationally, but to do well both in US and internationally would be something that neither NASCAR or F1 has accomplished.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Is the series really in worse shape 3 years later? There are more cars on the grid, more sponsors on the sidepods, new manufacturers coming next year. etc....

True. But no one is watching. The grandstands are empty. TV figures are miniscule.

[Chris R]

True. But no one is watching. The grandstands are empty. TV figures are miniscule.

no arguing - but the stands were empty and TV rating minuscule in 2008 too... I am in no way saying things are good - just that they are not much worse...... 2008 might have seen a slight "mergification" bump in both attendance and ratings - but the trend was certainly not in that direction.....

[SarahFan]

Chris .... Grid size is up.... Not so sure about sponsorship $$$$$

The reason feel discouraged is the past 2 years have been building towards seeing an upward trend....and the past few months have basically been bad news after bad...culminating in a Vegas race that was supposed to be the bridge to the future and is going to be a complete flop froma biz standpoint and bloodbath financially

[Chris R]

Ken, I don't know about dollars either - I assume they are down - but there are still less empty sidepods and less that appear to be self sponsored.... it LOOKS better anyway - whether or not it Is is another story....

You are spot on about the disappointment but I would argue that mirrors the "real economy" pretty closely. How many of us have been thinking this recession is nearly over for nearly a year only now to be faced with the reality that it is likely to slog on for another several years? I know we were budgeting fro a 5-10% increase at our business this year and we are actually looking at another 5-10% DECREASE (will be 4th decrease in a row). All of the factors that were pointing toward an upturn just fizzled out (and we should not discount how badly the various natural patterns have really disrupted any recovery - especially on the East coast....)... I think 2011 started as a year of cautious optimism for many and it just has not played out that way.....

Not that that helps any - Indycar is still in a pretty tight spot regardless of whether it is because of its own actions or the greater economy - broke is still broke......

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well the split went on far too long, was a bad idea to start with, and by the time saner heads prevailed, it was too late..survival mode is kicking in. Now the series has some good crowds at some new venues, some crappy crowds at others...mixed results where they used to have big crowds (Toronto). They have stalled on the new car to an extent....in that it isn't all it was promised to be, but of course, that too is financial.

They need capital when big business is pulling it its horns........and the economy is still hiccuping and tanking....

I think most of what is killing the sport now is a lack of capital to make the changes needed to reinvigorate the product...and then we can reassess how good that product is.

[FormerFF]

The decline is not limited to IndyCar. While Sprint Cup's TV ratings have returned to their 2009 levels mostly, the attendance is still declining, and there are teams leaving the truck series. Around here, short track attendance is off, as is car count.

Ten years ago, it seems like it was unusual for me to stop at a traffic light without one of the surrounding cars to not have a NASCAR related sticker. Now, I can typically go a month without seeing one, and more often than not it's for Dale Earnhardt Sr. I don't think today's youth have all that much interest in cars, I rarely see a slammer anymore, whereas they were pretty common not all that long ago.

I assume the same things are happening to sprint and midget racing as well.

[NickFalzone]

The decline is not limited to IndyCar. While Sprint Cup's TV ratings have returned to their 2009 levels mostly, the attendance is still declining, and there are teams leaving the truck series. Around here, short track attendance is off, as is car count.

Ten years ago, it seems like it was unusual for me to stop at a traffic light without one of the surrounding cars to not have a NASCAR related sticker. Now, I can typically go a month without seeing one, and more often than not it's for Dale Earnhardt Sr. I don't think today's youth have all that much interest in cars, I rarely see a slammer anymore, whereas they were pretty common not all that long ago.

I assume the same things are happening to sprint and midget racing as well.

Car racing, at least in North America, has lost quite a bit of heat in the last few years. I'd say starting in 06 or 07 it felt like NASCAR had started on the skids, and IndyCar has been an ever evolving mess since the 90s. The big picture does seem to be that Americans are not as big on auto racing as they once were, and I don't know if/when that will change. Sports do tend to go up and down in popularity, so who knows, 3 or 4 years from now things may be on an upswing. I would not count on it though.

[00steven]

The only thing keepind AOWR alive is the Indy 500. It seems clear that Indycar is adapting to the Champcar way of doing things. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years that the Indy 500 is the only oval on the schedule. Indycar needs momentum and it seems that road and street races sell tickets. A terrible tv deal is a real problem with things right now though.

[Lousada]

I don't think today's youth have all that much interest in cars, I rarely see a slammer anymore, whereas they were pretty common not all that long ago.

Yes they do! But not in 10 years of all the same Dallara/Honda/Firestone or COT's with different headlight stickers! Indycar and Nascar have long ago stopped being about cars, so they attract 'personality'-fans instead of 'car'-fans. And because the personalities in Indycar are not very interesting, there aren't that many fans.

[Bob Riebe]

For those of you who live in areas where open wheel oval track racing is popular, do you have a feeling for how the health of the sport is? I live in the stock car belt, and there's not much in the way of open wheel oval racing around here.

There are two things that are making me ask this: first, the 2012 Indycar schedule being somewhat oval-light, and second, the struggles that our local short tracks are having. Lanier Speedway, which is across the street from Road Atlanta, recently announced that it would not be running its regular schedule next year, and that the track property is up for sale. Lanier is one of the few paved short tracks we have in the state, and about 20 years ago the Busch series was held there for a few years, and it was one of the more successful of the short tracks. The reason given was a lack of attendance by fans and small fields, particularly Late Model. There are lots of dirt ovals, but these seem to open and close at random, with a few long running exceptions. I've read stories that short tracks have been having attendance issues since the mid 2000's.

So, how's the health of short tracks in your area?
Short track sprints, modifieds etc. are doing just fine.
The increasingly fewer number of one-half mile track or longer is discouraging, but all in all they will still be around long after Indy car, and all the other spec. formula cars have gone belly-up.

What would be best for U.S. rear-engined open wheel racers is for the Indycar series to to belly-up and leave Indy as a stand alone spectacle will all comer allowed.

Discounting Drag Racing and short tracks, U.S. professional car racing of any sort has become a pathetic spec. series farce.

[Chris R]

Short track sprints, modifieds etc. are doing just fine.
The increasingly fewer number of one-half mile track or longer is discouraging, but all in all they will still be around long after Indy car, and all the other spec. formula cars have gone belly-up.

What would be best for U.S. rear-engined open wheel racers is for the Indycar series to to belly-up and leave Indy as a stand alone spectacle will all comer allowed.

Discounting Drag Racing and short tracks, U.S. professional car racing of any sort has become a pathetic spec. series farce.

It is hard to argue with these points. LeMans has done well despite the mess that is European sports car racing for the past decade or two..... A stand alone Indy might work after a while.....

[SoCalPVguy]

Here's all you need to know about the health of Indycar

0.1 rating (on cable) for last race

Stick a fork in ICS- its done!!!

And Randy need a 0.8 to stay on .. see ya at the bull riders.

Look for TG and TGBB to take over and reassert themselves, ICS closes in 2013 as TG predicted years ago when out of money. Only question becomes what formula do they run at Indy 500 as stand alone race.

Too bad I really like CART during its day, IRL.. not so much. The split mortally wounded it and the bad economy brought by high taxes and over-regulation (reducing available $ for sponsorships) killed it.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

The split mortally wounded it and the bad economy brought by high taxes and over-regulation (reducing available $ for sponsorships) killed it.

What I like about American politics is that they don't tend to oversimplify things.

[Leo Krupe]

The split mortally wounded it and the bad economy brought by high taxes and over-regulation (reducing available $ for sponsorships) killed it.
That's the craziest thing I ever heard. I don't know your politics, but that's nothing but a right-wing talking point about taxes and over regulation. I realize this isn't a political forum, so that's all I'll say about that.

Instead, I'll agree with you the split was the driving force behind the issues the sport's facing now. Beyond that, where RB and others (including TG, as well as Kalkhoven et al) dropped the ball was in not marketing the drivers effectively and efficiently. Had they done things like plastered their faces in front of the public (like on Dancing with the Stars) more often, it might've made a change. They should've done anything and everything to show the public the driver's faces and stories (upclose and personal, as they used to say on the old Wide World of Sports).

[Chris R]

The split and economic uncertainty (regardless of the cause) are huge issues - but the other issue is the rise of the internet and the sport's failure (along with many others) to figure out how to make money in the internet age. TV advertising simply does not have the value it once did (especially on the margins - on which racing has ALWAYS been). several of the biggest advertising sponsors of racing have been legislated out of the advertising business (again no judgement on that matter -just the fact) and the fact of the matter is that they supported racing because they had no other legal advertising outlet..... The modern car has also made the mass market shade tree mechanic a thing of the past - the auto parts companies have little reason to advertise to a much reduced market (when was the last time you bought a set of spark plugs for your 2 year old Honda? How many even considered it potentially necessary to try STP to get it a little further down the road in their engine that doesn't even need a tune up until it has 100,000 miles?? The automotive world has changed and racing (AOWR in particular) has failed to adjust.... Heck, I'll bet even NASCAR actually has a smaller percentage of the entire population as a fan base than it did 20 years ago (even if it is MORE total people)....

[FIAT1]

I refused to use word split because there was none. I remeber Indycar was just fine with 900hp turbo with speed records broken every year, and that was what every fan lived for. Looking in anticipation for new year with new design cars and multiple engines was race beside racing. Sounds and speed made nascar look like they are stuck in 2nd gear. Then idiot of modern times tg with influence of b. france decided we need nascar type single seater formula with slow , ugly low tech cars that anyone, including part time dentists can drive, and destroyed everything that his grandfather built. Nascar had a plan why to support tg and it is very obvious now.

[Lee Roy]

I refused to use word split because there was none. I remeber Indycar was just fine with 900hp turbo with speed records broken every year, and that was what every fan lived for. Looking in anticipation for new year with new design cars and multiple engines was race beside racing. Sounds and speed made nascar look like they are stuck in 2nd gear. Then idiot of modern times tg with influence of b. france decided we need nascar type single seater formula with slow , ugly low tech cars that anyone, including part time dentists can drive, and destroyed everything that his grandfather built. Nascar had a plan why to support tg and it is very obvious now.

NASCAR had nothing to do with the demise of Indy Car. All the France family had to do was sit back and laugh. Laugh at both the IRL and CART.

[FIAT1]

NASCAR had nothing to do with the demise of Indy Car. All the France family had to do was sit back and laugh. Laugh at both the IRL and CART.

Right, that's why at one meeting on unification with Rahal and co. at that time instead of tg b. france showed up. In any case for the fans of speed, tech and skill, war has been lost and life goes on.

[Lee Roy]

Right, that's why at one meeting on unification with Rahal and co. at that time instead of tg b. france showed up.

And I'm quite sure you have a link to back up that claim.

[FIAT1]

And I'm quite sure you have a link to back up that claim.

No, but that was reported on speed by RM.

[Chris R]

I believe RM said he asked Bill France what he thought of the idea of the IRL at one time and France more or less answered he would sit back and pick up he pieces - something like that..... I think it is not unlikely that the France family egged on TG behind the scenes but I don't think they were ever directly involved..... Although one cannot help but notice NASCAR showed up at Indy in 1994 and the IRL was announced very son thereafter.... definitely something that makes you go "hmmmm"......

[Lee Roy]

No, but that was reported on speed by RM.

Now there's an unbiased source. :rolleyes:

[Lee Roy]

Although one cannot help but notice NASCAR showed up at Indy in 1994 and the IRL was announced very son thereafter.... definitely something that makes you go "hmmmm"......

Rigghhhhhtttt. NASCAR started a race at Indy just to cause the rift in Indy Car. I guess they have kept the race going for nearly 20 years now just so people wouldn't catch on. But there's no fooling someone like you, is there.

[garyshell]

But there's no fooling someone like you, is there.

Nor is there fooling a die hard NASCAR fan who only shows up to comment here when NASCAR and the IRL are mentioned in the same sentence, right?

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

Right, that's why at one meeting on unification with Rahal and co. at that time instead of tg b. france showed up. In any case for the fans of speed, tech and skill, war has been lost and life goes on.
Hmmm, no split but you use a supposed unification meeting?
Then something must have split unless one is just pouting because the half of the SPLIT he favored went belly-up because Formula Ford lost out to Formula Honda.

[Bob Riebe]

I believe RM said he asked Bill France what he thought of the idea of the IRL at one time and France more or less answered he would sit back and pick up he pieces - something like that..... I think it is not unlikely that the France family egged on TG behind the scenes but I don't think they were ever directly involved..... Although one cannot help but notice NASCAR showed up at Indy in 1994 and the IRL was announced very son thereafter.... definitely something that makes you go "hmmmm"......
I am not going to dig up a net source, but if I remember correctly, it WAS a George-NASCAR connection that led to the death of the once great Copper World Classic at Phoenix.
Now THAT was a travesty.

[Bob Riebe]

That's the craziest thing I ever heard. I don't know your politics, but that's nothing but a right-wing talking point about taxes and over regulation. I realize this isn't a political forum, so that's all I'll say about that.

Instead, I'll agree with you the split was the driving force behind the issues the sport's facing now. Beyond that, where RB and others (including TG, as well as Kalkhoven et al) dropped the ball was in not marketing the drivers effectively and efficiently. Had they done things like plastered their faces in front of the public (like on Dancing with the Stars) more often, it might've made a change. They should've done anything and everything to show the public the driver's faces and stories (upclose and personal, as they used to say on the old Wide World of Sports).

Hero driver worship does not work in the U.S.---PERIOD.

To use even NASCAR, good lord much less Dancing with the Stars, as a selling point that hero drivers can save a series is asinine.
Bill France Sr. spent a good deal of his life building NASCAR into what became.

He was fortunate that the USAC/CART split came along plus the fact that USAC had what Autoweek & Competition Press called thirty years ago, "The missing generation" of drivers.
NASCAR had drivers that carried on for decadess, winning or not, plus those that came right after them the Martin, Parson, Wallace so once a generation of well known drivers retired, there was little " Who the hell is this guy? Where did he come from?" gap. (Aided by the fact that NASCAR was the survivor of many regional stock-car series, where drivers were well know, if not to NASCAR home-town people, to people in the region then came from when NASCAR was the only big-show left.)

If drivers were the driving force behind it, Toyota would not give damn about NASCAR much less be in it.
The Earnhart phenomenon was another stroke of good fortune for NASCAR as again Autoweek & Competion Press said before Earnhart was a true big name, that he was going to be, because he was the last driver who style was the type that NASCAR born with.
Had he not come along, well, his son made a living off of his father, not his own driving talent.

USAC/CART/IRL/Indycar is dead becausse no one gives a damn about hero drivers, and like it or not, especially ones not born, or at least raised in the U.S., or--- spec. series.
The latter is proven especially by the fact GARRA, without Daytona would be as well know as the Muscle Milk Trans-Am series and the IMSA is on a death watch.

[Chris R]

Rigghhhhhtttt. NASCAR started a race at Indy just to cause the rift in Indy Car. I guess they have kept the race going for nearly 20 years now just so people wouldn't catch on. But there's no fooling someone like you, is there.
I did not say that - I just noted the proximity of the two events is interesting. I suspect it is more likely TG attempted to manipulate NASCAR and bit off more than he could chew - but who knows......

[chuck34]

I am not going to dig up a net source, but if I remember correctly, it WAS a George-NASCAR connection that led to the death of the once great Copper World Classic at Phoenix.
Now THAT was a travesty.

I'll agreee with you on the loss of the Copper World Classic being a travesty. I loved that race, never did get a chance to go out and watch it live. :( Never heard of a George-NASCAR connection killing it though. Not saying you're wrong, just that I'd never heard that one.

[Lee Roy]

I am not going to dig up a net source, but if I remember correctly, it WAS a George-NASCAR connection that led to the death of the once great Copper World Classic at Phoenix.
Now THAT was a travesty.

You forgot the third factor in the death of the Cooper Classic. No one was showing up to watch it. The first two factors you mentioned were pretty irrelevant.

[Lee Roy]

I did not say that -

No, but you greatly implied it. But there's one thing that was a factor, the profits from the B/Y 400. But the ignorance to go ahead with the split was all the fault of Tony George and the geniuses at CART.

NASCAR had already eclipsed AOWR and was pulling away. All NASCAR had to do was sit there and keep on doing what they were doing and laugh at the inept.

[Lee Roy]

Nor is there fooling a die hard NASCAR fan who only shows up to comment here when NASCAR and the IRL are mentioned in the same sentence, right?

Gary

There is the "ignore" function for irritating people, you know. As a matter of fact, I think I'm going to add you to my list.

[garyshell]

There is the "ignore" function for irritating people, you know. As a matter of fact, I think I'm going to add you to my list.

Cover your ears and chant "la, la, la, la" too, I couldn't be more pleased.

Gary

[Chris R]

No, but you greatly implied it. But there's one thing that was a factor, the profits from the B/Y 400. But the ignorance to go ahead with the split was all the fault of Tony George and the geniuses at CART.

NASCAR had already eclipsed AOWR and was pulling away. All NASCAR had to do was sit there and keep on doing what they were doing and laugh at the inept.

If that is how you choose to see it - ok. From my point of view (as the guy who typed it) my real implication was that TG invited NASCAR into the "inner sanctum" of Indy to somehow use them in his up coming fight against CART. I do not really think NASCAR had any active intention of splitting up CART but I am pretty sure they were quite happy to egg TG on once the die was cast. Even if they were just sitting back and letting the house of cards collapse, I am sure there was the occasional ""atta boy, Tony" at the very least.....

[Bob Riebe]

You forgot the third factor in the death of the Cooper Classic. No one was showing up to watch it. The first two factors you mentioned were pretty irrelevant.Attendance did not drop until the nineties- WAIT- that is when George and some NASCAR boys started screwing with the Copper World Classic.
Crap wagon trucks, not only a farce, but a boring farce.
In 2003 they dropped the super-modifieds whose, which Autoweek once had noted in the CART days, pole position car, would have been in the CART third row, for Infininti pro.
Gee no wonder people stopped going.

If I remember correctly the first CWC was in 1977, are you telling us it took that long for anyone to look at attendance figures?
Shizzzam!

The fact that a race that once had Autoweek comparing the CWC super-modifieds to CART cars is now at the- "Do they still run the Copper World Classic?" level, says much about the state of supposed top professional open wheel racing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lee Roy only comes on here to shovel dirt on Open Wheeled racing, so take that for what it is. He is often right..and he is right. ISC and NASCAR never actually conspired to tear down open wheeled racing, but I am sure they encouraged Tony George in those early days...and didn't answer his phone calls when he was drowning....

[djparky]

CART was doing just fine in 1994- massive grids, sell out crowds, big name drivers, mixed schedule and good TV figures. Then the idiot decided to form the IRL and combined with mind boggling mismanagement by CART it went down the toilet- the IRL was a pointless ego trip and the sport didn't need it- had the CART teams been more intelligent and less greedy they wouldn't have sold their old chassis & engines to the IRL in 1995, the wretched thing might have gone away

commonsense finally prevailed- but by then it was too late- people wer tired of the split in OW and NASCAR had gone through it's growth period. What the Indy Car series has now become is basically CART without the fabulous cars, good racing, big sponsors, big media and so on. Randy Bernard can only do so much- if people don't to watch it then don't know what more he can do- if the Idiot takes over again then it's done except for the Indy 500

[SoCalPVguy]

With today's events at Vegas I am not so sure Indycar will continue for much longer.