Mercedes GP - promising future?

[jens]

After buying cash-strapped Brawn GP, Mercedes started the 2010 season in a promising way with Rosberg collecting 2 podiums and positioning second in WDC for a moment. Since then car performance has gradually been deteriorating all the time, which has recently meant getting lapped by Top3 teams and sometimes getting beaten by other midfielders, like Force India.

In 2011 Mercedes has finally turned its attention to the deepest problem and started improving its engineering excellence.
Costa, Willis join Mercedes GP as it strengthens technical team - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94915)
In addition to Bob Bell they have signed Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis. All notable names. Besides all Bell and Costa managed to win all constructors championships during 2005-2008 as technical directors. Does this mean that Mercedes is finally going to halt its backwards slide and will actually start improving? Do they have title-challenging potential in long-term? Perhaps new rules in 2014 will tell us...

Mercedes' actions remind me a bit of what their predecessor Honda did in 2007, when as a consequence of a horrible season they made a lot of new signings, headed by Brawn. Two years later it all culminated in winning the championships...

[AndyL]

I think equally significant is that "The board has signed off on an expansion plan to take the team up to the limits imposed by the Resource Restriction Agreement (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/ambitious-mercedes-add-two-top-engineers/)". Significant in that it shows that so far Mercedes has been funding the team below that level.

Doesn't 2009 prove that the team has (or had) sufficiently smart people, given enough resources? I know Honda spent unprecedented amounts of money, but Toyota proved that huge budgets alone can't make you a championship contender. You still need the right people.

[BDunnell]

I think equally significant is that "The board has signed off on an expansion plan to take the team up to the limits imposed by the Resource Restriction Agreement (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/ambitious-mercedes-add-two-top-engineers/)". Significant in that it shows that so far Mercedes has been funding the team below that level.

Doesn't 2009 prove that the team has (or had) sufficiently smart people, given enough resources? I know Honda spent unprecedented amounts of money, but Toyota proved that huge budgets alone can't make you a championship contender. You still need the right people.

I am deeply puzzled by Mercedes, apart from the fact that behind the wheel it has one possibly over-rated and one probably past-it driver. What was lost in the transition from Brawn to Mercedes, except the two drivers Brawn had, and what did the company expect to gain if indeed it was effectively under-funding the team? Jackie Stewart suggested a while back that Brawn benefited early in 2009 from the lingering effects of the Honda money, and that Merc's funding would take some time to truly kick in. Well, we're still waiting...

[Bruce D]

Doesn't 2009 prove that the team has (or had) sufficiently smart people, given enough resources?

No, it proves they got lucky with a loophole in the rules and used big money to milk it for all it's worth. Once others had it later in the season they dropped back to their usual midfield points scorer position. Lets face it, since becoming BAR in 1999 the team have always been average midfield runners, with the exception of 2 seasons, 2004 and 2009 - we know the story of 2009 but in 2004 the designer was Geoff Willis so I think somebody has woken up to the fact that he is their best chance right now. Personally I think that whole team is just a bunch of average people who ride on this false image of a top team, and the biggest problem IMO is their CEO Nick Fry, who's got to be the biggest BS talker I've ever seen in F1.

[BDunnell]

No, it proves they got lucky with a loophole in the rules and used big money to milk it for all it's worth.

You don't get lucky with loopholes in the rules. You have to be clever to exploit them and do so legally. Ross Brawn managed to do both.

[Malbec]

Doesn't 2009 prove that the team has (or had) sufficiently smart people, given enough resources? I know Honda spent unprecedented amounts of money, but Toyota proved that huge budgets alone can't make you a championship contender. You still need the right people.

I think the key sentence there is 'had'. How many of the designers of the 2009 car are still there? How many were poached by other teams?

Even with the effects of the double diffuser taken out the 2009 was excellent, outpacing both the Williams and Toyota that were similarly designed around that feature completely.

I know its unfashionable to give manufacturers credit but one of Ross Brawn's achievements was to get Honda's considerable R/D resources to work efficiently with the team and a lot of work that went onto the 2009 car wasn't even carried out in Brackley but in Japan.

Went Honda left Brackley lost financial support but also this huge R/D resource. Mercedes hasn't done the same as Honda and has merely taken over financial control, leaving the team separate from its own engineering pool. In effect Mercedes F1 is competing with less backing than Honda F1 did and its slipping back as a result.

[BDunnell]

I know its unfashionable to give manufacturers credit but one of Ross Brawn's achievements was to get Honda's considerable R/D resources to work efficiently with the team and a lot of work that went onto the 2009 car wasn't even carried out in Brackley but in Japan.

To say nothing of what appears to have been Honda's generous attitude in allowing the team to still function while a buyer was being sought.

[Big Ben]

You don't get lucky with loopholes in the rules. You have to be clever to exploit them and do so legally. Ross Brawn managed to do both.

You don't get lucky with loopholes in the rules. You have to be clever to know how to hide them and do so legally. Ross Brawn managed to do both. That sounds more like some things people used to say :p :

[AndyL]

No, it proves they got lucky with a loophole in the rules and used big money to milk it for all it's worth. Once others had it later in the season they dropped back to their usual midfield points scorer position.

Again I think Toyota are the perfect counter-example. They had the double decker diffuser before Brawn did. And lots of money. But it did them little good. Williams had a double diffuser from the start of the season too; it was clearly no guarantee of success.

I think the underlying reason Brawn fell back was lack of money to continue developing the car. If they had decent funding, they could have been developing other aspects of the car while others were scrambling to catch up with the diffuser idea.

[BDunnell]

You don't get lucky with loopholes in the rules. You have to be clever to know how to hide them and do so legally. Ross Brawn managed to do both. That sounds more like some things people used to say :p :

Not me, I hasten to add!

[BDunnell]

Again I think Toyota are the perfect counter-example. They had the double decker diffuser before Brawn did. And lots of money. But it did them little good.

Toyota is the perfect counter-example to almost everything — the need for bags of money, the need for a double diffuser... But maybe there is a similarity. The deep-seated problems with Toyota's F1 effort are generally regarded to have been higher up the company. Could it be that Mercedes has similar failings?



I think the underlying reason Brawn fell back was lack of money to continue developing the car.

Did Brawn as a whole fall back, or was it just that Button fell off the pace?

[Bolton Midnight]

Nico - over rated - really :rolleyes:

Part of Toyota's problems were its drivers, which reminds me wtf was Trulli doing at the restart at Singapore he gave SV loads of extra lead.

Not sure how long Mercedes will be happy being beat by its 'customer' teams?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Part of Toyota's problems were its drivers, which reminds me wtf was Trulli doing at the restart at Singapore he gave SV loads of extra lead.



Driving a Lotus! :p

[Bolton Midnight]

Driving a Lotus! :p

Aye, but he hung back loads thus gifting SV a massive advantage

[Garry Walker]

Part of Toyota's problems were its drivers,
The smallest of Toyota`s problem were the drivers

Aye, but he hung back loads thus gifting SV a massive advantageYeah, because he was actually racing Vettel for position, right?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Aye, but he hung back loads thus gifting SV a massive advantage

He probably didn't want to disadvantage himself by being in Vettels dirty air.

This would probably be exaggerated by Vettel using KERS.

[Bolton Midnight]

The smallest of Toyota`s problem were the drivers
Yeah, because he was actually racing Vettel for position, right?

Based on what exactly?

No he wasn't but that doesn't mean he should hold back several car lengths. Have you just taken up watching motor sport by any chance?

[Garry Walker]

Based on what exactly? Because the organization was sick and was never going to get anywhere.



No he wasn't but that doesn't mean he should hold back several car lengths. Have you just taken up watching motor sport by any chance?
No, but have you just recently been housebroken?

[Bolton Midnight]

Because the organization was sick and was never going to get anywhere.


No, but have you just recently been housebroken?

Without really talented drivers hard to say for sure. Had Schumacher driven for them, who knows?

Just you don't seem to fully understand the sport. Was it the grid girls, the slammed suspension, pretty colour schemes, smell of Cazzy R that drew you in?

[Garry Walker]

Without really talented drivers hard to say for sure. Had Schumacher driven for them, who knows?
Ralf did drive for them, dumbo.
If you mean Michael, well, he could just have been a bit faster than Ralf, but that is it. He wouldnt have made the car faster, he wouldnt have cured the leadership problems at the helm of the team and the team would still have been a mess. Maybe he would have lucked into one win somehow, but that is far from given.



Just you don't seem to fully understand the sport. Was it the grid girls, the slammed suspension, pretty colour schemes, smell of Cazzy R that drew you in?
Grid girls.

[Malbec]

Again I think Toyota are the perfect counter-example. They had the double decker diffuser before Brawn did. And lots of money. But it did them little good. Williams had a double diffuser from the start of the season too; it was clearly no guarantee of success.

IIRC Toyota were the last of the three to join the double diffuser party, they hired a Honda employee who told them about what they had planned for 2009. Williams decided to use a double diffuser independently.

People keep talking about Toyota's budget but actually it was quite reasonable and wasn't as big as McLaren or Ferrari's, at least once one off costs had been paid off which included bringing their facilities up to proper F1 standards with a first class windtunnel etc etc.


I think the underlying reason Brawn fell back was lack of money to continue developing the car. If they had decent funding, they could have been developing other aspects of the car while others were scrambling to catch up with the diffuser idea.

That definitely explains the way they dropped back during 2009 but not afterwards with Mercedes money.

[Malbec]

The smallest of Toyota`s problem were the drivers

Agreed. Two proven race winners who knew how the top teams went about their business. Both Ralf and Trulli could be temperamental but without winning races Toyota didn't have a hope of attracting the real top talent but kept being used as a foil by drivers to get their existing teams to push their pay up.

Being in Germany certainly didn't help, unable to poach midlevel F1 engineers from the British teams and competing with BMW for what was left in Germany.

[BDunnell]

That definitely explains the way they dropped back during 2009 but not afterwards with Mercedes money.

But, as I said earlier, did they drop back during 2009, or was it more the performance of Button dropping off that gave that impression? I seem to recall Barrichello was right on the pace in the second half of the season, generally well ahead of Button.

[Malbec]

But, as I said earlier, did they drop back during 2009, or was it more the performance of Button dropping off that gave that impression? I seem to recall Barrichello was right on the pace in the second half of the season, generally well ahead of Button.

Late on in the season I don't recall Brawn ever having the kind of dominant 1-2 win at a canter kind of relative pace that they had at the beginning. My impression was that Brawn as a whole dropped back in pace relative to other teams whilst Barrichello overcame his braking issues and overtook Button, although Button also found it difficult under pressure in the latter part of the season. Didn't Brawn pretty much every race bar China in the first half and only win the odd race in the second half?

[BDunnell]

Late on in the season I don't recall Brawn ever having the kind of dominant 1-2 win at a canter kind of relative pace that they had at the beginning. My impression was that Brawn as a whole dropped back in pace relative to other teams whilst Barrichello overcame his braking issues and overtook Button, although Button also found it difficult under pressure in the latter part of the season. Didn't Brawn pretty much every race bar China in the first half and only win the odd race in the second half?

You're right about their dominance being erased, but I'm still a tad unsure as to whether the Brawn drop-off was quite so marked, or whether it was exacerbated by Button's struggle to reach the championship finishing line and the improvement shown by other teams.

[Bolton Midnight]

Ralf did drive for them, dumbo.
If you mean Michael, well, he could just have been a bit faster than Ralf, but that is it. He wouldnt have made the car faster, he wouldnt have cured the leadership problems at the helm of the team and the team would still have been a mess. Maybe he would have lucked into one win somehow, but that is far from given.


Grid girls.

Of course MS Ralf's missus is quicker than him plus has nice norks/clunge.

You mean like MS did at Benetton?

[jens]

The comparisons between Toyota and Mercedes are interesting and although we seem to have a slight difference in funding matters (it seems MB hasn't been putting that much money into it so far), there isn't much difference in what kind of an impression do they leave to the general audience - big car manufacturers going nowhere. Now the difference seems to be that Mercedes is actually hiring some great engineers in order to try to improve. Toyota didn't really do that - except perhaps their biggest signing Gascoyne, but they managed to get rid of him two years later again.

[AndyL]

That definitely explains the way they dropped back during 2009 but not afterwards with Mercedes money.

The point I was making earlier in this thread is that the Mercedes money was not as great as one might have thought, since apparently they've been running below the level of the resource restriction agreement.

[kfzmeister]

You're right about their dominance being erased, but I'm still a tad unsure as to whether the Brawn drop-off was quite so marked, or whether it was exacerbated by Button's struggle to reach the championship finishing line and the improvement shown by other teams.

Add to that the fact that the car had issues with pace during cooler weather. Tires didn't heat up well. All other comments above are valid as well.

[truefan72]

No, it proves they got lucky with a loophole in the rules and used big money to milk it for all it's worth. Once others had it later in the season they dropped back to their usual midfield points scorer position. Lets face it, since becoming BAR in 1999 the team have always been average midfield runners, with the exception of 2 seasons, 2004 and 2009 - we know the story of 2009 but in 2004 the designer was Geoff Willis so I think somebody has woken up to the fact that he is their best chance right now. Personally I think that whole team is just a bunch of average people who ride on this false image of a top team, and the biggest problem IMO is their CEO Nick Fry, who's got to be the biggest BS talker I've ever seen in F1.

Nick fRy has been and will always be the problem as long as he is there

[ioan]

There are reports in the German media that claim MS extended his contract to 2013 and has an option for 2014. Couldn't be any better for Mercedes.

[ioan]

It couldn't be any worse either. At least they can milk the Schumacher name for abit longer and keep sponsors interested while both drivers underperform and development slows down.

:laugh:
I can say the same about McLaren and their drivers, and prove it the same way you proved your claim.

[jens]

While based on recent progress I wouldn't be very surprised if Schumacher continued in 2013, I'm doubtful contract has been signed this early. Surely MS wants to see if MB makes any progress at all during 2012 and MB wants to see if Hülkenberg/di Resta/whoever matures into a real contender worth of getting hired?

[i_max2k2]

I love how biased people can get, Merc drivers have been under performing? I have seen some reports too, that MS has signed on for 2013, which I think is when they are expecting for the car to be a wc contender. I really hope Merc can fight among the top 3 and occasionally win next season.

[Garry Walker]

You mean like MS did at Benetton?What MS at Benetton? He didnt develop the team, he didnt engineer the car, he had Rory Byrne and guys like that for those things.


There are reports in the German media that claim MS extended his contract to 2013 and has an option for 2014. Couldn't be any better for Mercedes.Excellent news


While based on recent progress I wouldn't be very surprised if Schumacher continued in 2013, I'm doubtful contract has been signed this early. Surely MS wants to see if MB makes any progress at all during 2012 and MB wants to see if Hülkenberg/di Resta/whoever matures into a real contender worth of getting hired?
Hülkenberg is worthless

[ioan]

You could do yes by comparing how many races Mercedes and McLaren are winning per season.




Oh yeah I forgot this :laugh: , because this :laugh: wins an arguement.


So, where are your facts kid? Right, there are no facts, like always in your arguments.

[ioan]

I love how biased people can get, Merc drivers have been under performing? I have seen some reports too, that MS has signed on for 2013, which I think is when they are expecting for the car to be a wc contender. I really hope Merc can fight among the top 3 and occasionally win next season.

If anything, compared to Hamilton's showing, both MS and Rosberg have been punching way about their weight. But don't tell this to henners, poor guy might have a crysis when confronted with reality.

[ioan]

While based on recent progress I wouldn't be very surprised if Schumacher continued in 2013, I'm doubtful contract has been signed this early. Surely MS wants to see if MB makes any progress at all during 2012 and MB wants to see if Hülkenberg/di Resta/whoever matures into a real contender worth of getting hired?

Hulkenberg? The guy who lucked into a pole and then went on to finish one lap down? Can we even call him a racer?
Di Resta? Maybe, though he didn't really look more convincing than Sutil this season.

[ioan]

Well when you don't lead by example, what is a kid like me to do?

Given that you started it I was giving you the chance to prove your claim.

[Roamy]

Has Merc hired TAD yet. I think I read they want to screw around with the elect box

[Knock-on]

Mercedes says Rosberg can be regular winner with a competitive car - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96082)

Can anyone understand what Haug is going on about in this interview?

Give Rosberg a winning car and he might win 10 races in 2 years :confused: Is that all they aspire to with a winning car or is that all Nico will be allowed to win?

As for the rest of it?

I really fail to see what he was trying to say?

[jens]

The expression is a bit random indeed. But generally I think what Haug wanted to say with that "10 wins" phrase, is that given a top car Rosberg is capable of winning many more races than just a couple per year, and hence is capable of being a genuine title contender. Winning 5 races per year is roughly what title contenders in recent years have been doing in a closely-fought season.

[Malbec]

Nick fRy has been and will always be the problem as long as he is there

Nick Fry who was partially responsible for the Brackley team surviving the Honda withdrawal, getting Merc engines and winning the WCC in 2009? Nick Fry who hunted Ross Brawn and poached him when Ferrari didn't give him what he wanted during his sabbatical? Give him credit where its due.

[zako85]

Late on in the season I don't recall Brawn ever having the kind of dominant 1-2 win at a canter kind of relative pace that they had at the beginning. My impression was that Brawn as a whole dropped back in pace relative to other teams whilst Barrichello overcame his braking issues and overtook Button, although Button also found it difficult under pressure in the latter part of the season. Didn't Brawn pretty much every race bar China in the first half and only win the odd race in the second half?


Your facts are a little off. Yes, Brawn's relative performance dropped, but in the second half they had TWO wins, and overall four podiums. Yes, they wouldn't have won the WDCs if this was their average performance level the whole year. However, shouldn't you give them a credit for the fact that Brawn was running on a shoe string budget compared to other top teams? Being able to duke it out with the top teams on equal terms the whole year and also to win both titles in their first year as an independent team and with a hastily integrated new engine was simply a work geniuses IMO. 2009 will forever stand out as a very interesting year for Formula 1.

[jens]

I think the reason for Fry's low rating is that Richards was doing impressively (2nd in WCC in 2004) before Fry took over, who seen as doing an inferior job, failing to replicate the results. Fry is probably good in several areas, but IMO being a team principal wasn't really his cup of tea (as we can also argue that being a technical director wasn't the perfect role for Sam Michael - he is better off elsewhere). Thankfully Fry understood this and hired Brawn to take over his role, so that he could concentrate on other issues - mostly business and marketing.

[Malbec]

Your facts are a little off. Yes, Brawn's relative performance dropped, but in the second half they had TWO wins, and overall four podiums. Yes, they wouldn't have won the WDCs if this was their average performance level the whole year. However, shouldn't you give them a credit for the fact that Brawn was running on a shoe string budget compared to other top teams? Being able to duke it out with the top teams on equal terms the whole year and also to win both titles in their first year as an independent team and with a hastily integrated new engine was simply a work geniuses IMO. 2009 will forever stand out as a very interesting year for Formula 1.

I'm not sure where my facts are a little off? What you described is what I said isn't it? They simply weren't as dominant at the end as they were at the start.

Winning both titles as an independent team though isn't a very fair description though is it? You make it sound as impressive as HRT winning both championships at their first attempt. We all know it wasn't like that.

It was a car Honda spent a season and a half and one hell of a budget on, with a double diffuser that reinterpreted the rules and which the other top teams didn't have at the start of the season.

I was impressed by the engineering work to integrate the Mercedes, and the management work done by people like Fry to get the team through the winter of 2008-9. I was also very impressed by the correct way in which Honda got rid of their team, paying for a year's budget and not screwing Brackley over like BMW did with Sauber.

[Malbec]

I think the reason for Fry's low rating is that Richards was doing impressively (2nd in WCC in 2004) before Fry took over, who seen as doing an inferior job, failing to replicate the results. Fry is probably good in several areas, but IMO being a team principal wasn't really his cup of tea (as we can also argue that being a technical director wasn't the perfect role for Sam Michael - he is better off elsewhere). Thankfully Fry understood this and hired Brawn to take over his role, so that he could concentrate on other issues - mostly business and marketing.

The problem with this theory is that while Richards was in the limelight as head of BAR, the guy running the team was a certain Nick Fry. Credit for turning the team around post-2002 has to go to Fry as well as the staff around him.

Did you really think David Richards was in charge of day to day decisions at BAR while also juggling his WRC commitments and running Prodrive at the same time?

Fry's problem frankly is that he seems vacuous in interviews. Half the time he spoke I expected him to take his mask off revealing Alan Partridge underneath. His achievements however are pretty impressive.

[ioan]

If you really need me to prove to you that the McLaren team win more races in a season than the Mercedes works team then I'm sorry but you really should be aware of the facts there.

That's not what you posted previously, read your posts again kid, or should I say: try to stay true to your words.

[jens]

The problem with this theory is that while Richards was in the limelight as head of BAR, the guy running the team was a certain Nick Fry. Credit for turning the team around post-2002 has to go to Fry as well as the staff around him.

Did you really think David Richards was in charge of day to day decisions at BAR while also juggling his WRC commitments and running Prodrive at the same time?


Hmm... okay. That sounds like a good point.

[Knock-on]

Fry is much underrated by some fans but his performance and achievements suggest otherwise.

He performed admirably during the Richards / BAR days, had his hands tied by Honda but once the shackles were off, Brawn won the Championship. Fry had a lot of influence during this time.

You can't slag a man off for doing well.

As for Mercedes, there is a Battle Royal going on between Schumy and Rosberg it seems. After Schumy nearly barged Nico off at the start, Rosberg got the place back and pulled away. Apparently, it's getting a little testy in the team with Schumy not wanting to share his toys with the other side of the garage. :D

[Big Ben]

That's not what you posted previously, read your posts again kid, or should I say: try to stay true to your words.

live the kid alone old man

[Big Ben]

leave, obviously

[Knock-on]

As for Mercedes, there is a Battle Royal going on between Schumy and Rosberg it seems. After Schumy nearly barged Nico off at the start, Rosberg got the place back and pulled away. Apparently, it's getting a little testy in the team with Schumy not wanting to share his toys with the other side of the garage. :D

BBC stating that it's getting a bit 'Nasty' in the Mercedes team.

Often wondered what would happen if Schumy had someone that wouldn't roll over and have their tummy tickled.

BBC Sport - In-house Mercedes battle turns nasty (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15736348.stm)

[Knock-on]

Will be interesting. Perhaps this is what Nico needs to reach the highest level. Bit of fire and fight might push him on.

[F1boat]

it will be interesting battle, although I still think that Nico is an average driver (like Heidfeld, maybe as good as Frentzen), while MS is way past his prime.

[Knock-on]

it will be interesting battle, although I still think that Nico is an average driver (like Heidfeld, maybe as good as Frentzen), while MS is way past his prime.

You may well be right. Schumacher is not a good yard stick these days just as his team mates were hardly a good comparison before he retired.

We also need to mention that Nico is no Newbie but one of the most experienced drivers out there and has 6 years F1 experience under his belt. He beat the likes of Wurz and Naka but they were hardly world class. He was utterly dominant in his last year at Williams though.

[Malbec]

He performed admirably during the Richards / BAR days, had his hands tied by Honda but once the shackles were off

People accuse Honda of interfering but BAR were continually promising them performance improvements that didn't materialise. The process of going through each department and identifying and rectifying weaknesses took years and Honda was heavily involved in that. The end result in 2009 came about through hard work from both guys like Nick Fry and Honda itself. The pace of the BGP001 demonstrates that ultimately that work turning the team around was successful.

[Knock-on]

People accuse Honda of interfering but BAR were continually promising them performance improvements that didn't materialise. The process of going through each department and identifying and rectifying weaknesses took years and Honda was heavily involved in that. The end result in 2009 came about through hard work from both guys like Nick Fry and Honda itself. The pace of the BGP001 demonstrates that ultimately that work turning the team around was successful.

I agree about the BAR days but I don't think you can blame Fry for that. When Honda took over, they tried to get everything Hondaized and made some shocking decisions like hiring a Motorbike designer. I am convinced that had Brawn not taken over the operation, and given Fry some leeway, then the 2009 championship would have been Sebs as well.

[Bagwan]

Will be interesting. Perhaps this is what Nico needs to reach the highest level. Bit of fire and fight might push him on.

Bit of fire and fight might push them both on .

When Michael was at his best in his prime , he had bazillions of testing miles behind him , and , one had to adapt to his car , as a team-mate .
Now , the computer does the testing , and Michael gets ill in the simulator .

So , the old boy aint doin' too bad , considerin' it's a car built with two drivers in mind .

I think the Mercs are gonna be a lot tighter to the front runners next year , and both these guys are gonna hafta sit for a post race podium interview or two through the year .

[Malbec]

I agree about the BAR days but I don't think you can blame Fry for that. When Honda took over, they tried to get everything Hondaized and made some shocking decisions like hiring a Motorbike designer. I am convinced that had Brawn not taken over the operation, and given Fry some leeway, then the 2009 championship would have been Sebs as well.

I don't blame Fry. The problem is that BAR were a subpar team with various departments in disarray.

Nakamoto isn't a motorbike designer, he is a technical director ie makes management decisions regarding the technical aspects within the team. His background is in motorbikes where he has been and is very successful, his team secured another MotoGP championship this year.

Honda F1's management including Fry and Nakamoto identified key areas where the team was weak. The problem was that whenever they identified one area another popped up. After they sorted out the aero department back in 2004/5 they found out that the chassis dynamics department was letting the side down which is why BAR didn't build upon its success in 2004 and dropped back in 2005. On top of this they had to deal with a brain drain with lots of key engineers being poached by other teams, especially the then new BMW Sauber team.

During this period the F1 team was plugged into Honda's R/D team too, resulting in things like the seamless shift gearbox which Honda F1 was the first to deploy.

Blaming Honda for everything is simplistic. I'd go so far as to say that without Honda's input Brawn would not have won in 2009 either and would have performed even worse in the preceding years.

The root problem is that BAR was quite a weak midfield team that had to be upgraded both in infrastructure and personnel terms to front running levels. I don't blame any party for the fact that it took so long to win. Fry, Brawn, Honda and all the guys at Brackley all played their part in getting things together.

[zako85]

Some interesting discussions are found here on the history of BAR Honda team.. However, the sources of current team's under-performance still remain a mystery to me. It went from double championship winner in 2009, to a team that took only a few podiums in 2010, and then to a team with 0 podiums this year.

[Rollo]

However, the sources of current team's under-performance still remain a mystery to me. It went from double championship winner in 2009, to a team that took only a few podiums in 2010, and then to a team with 0 podiums this year.

Brawn GP had the use of the double diffuser which caught everyone out and so were scrambling to come up with their own solutions and by the time that they did by about the British GP, the championship damage was done. Button never won again that season after the '09 Turkish GP.
Come 2010 both Button and Barrichello had left, leaving Mercedes GP with a driver who'd not driven in F1 for three seasons and the other who had not up to then and still not has won even a single GP.

Put simply everyone else played catch-up and the team lost two excellent drivers.

[jens]

Come 2010 both Button and Barrichello had left, leaving Mercedes GP with a driver who'd not driven in F1 for three seasons and the other who had not up to then and still not has won even a single GP.

Put simply everyone else played catch-up and the team lost two excellent drivers.

What do you mean by that? Trying to pinpoint some of the blame on current drivers, which is highly unfair I'd say. Mercedes would be performing exactly the same if their drivers in 10-11 were Button-Barrichello.

[Knock-on]

I don't know Jens. Schumacher has shown nothing really since his return and was thoroughly dominated by Rosberg in 2010. Rosberg himself had some good performances but didn't look all that.

Then we have Button and Rubens who were multiple race winners in 2009 and had been fundamental to developing the car. If we need to rate Button, we only need to look at his performances against Hamilton to know how quick he is.

I think Rollo has a pretty justifiable opinion that the downturn was in some way due to losing their drivers and replacing them with a 'has been' and an unproven entity.

[Malbec]

What do you mean by that? Trying to pinpoint some of the blame on current drivers, which is highly unfair I'd say. Mercedes would be performing exactly the same if their drivers in 10-11 were Button-Barrichello.

I disagree. Rosberg is difficult to quantify but I don't see anything in his performance at Williams to mark him out as being more than good. Schumacher clearly has disappointed which is why people talk about his underperformance rather than Rosberg dominating a 7 times WDC.

They would have been better keeping one of their 2009 pairing IMO although I understand they did try to keep hold of Button.

[jens]

I find your claims a bit ridiculous and I have to add that people have short memories. You should only go back in time and recall, what people were talking about Button-Barrichello in 2008, when the car was bad. That Button has never achieved anything (one fortunate win) and Barrichello is over the hill. Exactly the same claims as about current Rosberg and Schumacher.

If Button was in Mercedes in 2011, it would still be distant fourth best and he would get 6th-7th places at best unless helped by attrition. I fail to see, how can you suggest otherwise.

As for car development, Honda was going backwards during 2006-08 with the same line-up of Button and Barrichello. And one could easily have suggested back then that they were unable to lead the team forward. Rosberg-Schumacher have been into their second season as a pairing and suggesting that especially Schumacher isn't a useful driver in team development phase, sounds a bit funny.

[Malbec]

I find your claims a bit ridiculous and I have to add that people have short memories. You should only go back in time and recall, what people were talking about Button-Barrichello in 2008, when the car was bad. That Button has never achieved anything (one fortunate win) and Barrichello is over the hill. Exactly the same claims as about current Rosberg and Schumacher.

If Button was in Mercedes in 2011, it would still be distant fourth best and he would get 6th-7th places at best unless helped by attrition. I fail to see, how can you suggest otherwise.

As for car development, Honda was going backwards during 2006-08 with the same line-up of Button and Barrichello. And one could easily have suggested back then that they were unable to lead the team forward. Rosberg-Schumacher have been into their second season as a pairing and suggesting that especially Schumacher isn't a useful driver in team development phase, sounds a bit funny.

I don't really look at whether drivers are supposedly good 'developers' because whatever they do is nothing compared to having a good engineering team developing a good car in the first place. Nor do I really care whether drivers lead the team forwards. Drivers can inspire the team but how do they lead engineers as they build up a new front wing for evaluation?

The problem is jens that post-retirement Schumacher and Rosberg are both unknowns.

It could be that MS is still as good as he was 10 years ago and is being beaten hollow by Rosberg who turns out to be a driving God.

It could be that MS is absolutely woeful and would struggle to beat Yuji Ide now he is so old, and that Rosberg is merely average and taking him to the cleaners.

The reality is probably somewhere in between but where exactly? At least with Button and Rubens (Button especially) BAR/Honda/Brawn knew exactly where they were in terms of performance.

[jens]

At least with Button and Rubens (Button especially) BAR/Honda/Brawn knew exactly where they were in terms of performance.

I wouldn't be so sure. When Barrichello was outracing Button in 2008, it raised a few question-marks.

About the team knowing, where the driver is with his performance. Well, all I need to know, is that Mercedes, headed by extremely experienced Brawn and Haug, who have seen it all, has signed a long-term contract renewal with Rosberg. Obviously they trust him being a long-term team leader for the legendary car manufacturer. And this itself is a big honour.

[Malbec]

About the team knowing, where the driver is with his performance. Well, all I need to know, is that Mercedes, headed by extremely experienced Brawn and Haug, who have seen it all, has signed a long-term contract renewal with Rosberg. Obviously they trust him being a long-term team leader for the legendary car manufacturer. And this itself is a big honour.

Who were the alternatives?

[jens]

Who were the alternatives?

If MB thought their drivers were no good, they could easily extend deals by a year and evaluate all young drivers (DIR, HUL, VER, RIC) during 2012 and sign up the most promising ones. And go all out and hunt Webber or Hamilton for 2013. Or try to get Barrichello back, it would be possible now. :p : Like Benetton in 1997 thought their drivers weren't good enough and went for new unproven young guns. Jordan released both drivers after 1996 too.

[BDunnell]

I am confused by Rosberg. This year I haven't seen much of a difference between him, the driver who is always about to break through, become a true team leader, or whatever, and his now without question past-his-best team-mate. I would have expected more than that from a driver constantly touted by many experts whose opinions I generally respect. I must say, I have come to wonder whether said experts don't want to be critical of Nico for fear of upsetting their good relations with his father, but maybe I'm being too cynical.

[Rollo]

I find your claims a bit ridiculous and I have to add that people have short memories.

Let's test those claims shall we?

Firstly the car:


Brawn GP had the use of the double diffuser which caught everyone out and so were scrambling to come up with their own solutions and by the time that they did by about the British GP, the championship damage was done. Button never won again that season after the '09 Turkish GP.

Put simply everyone else played catch-up.

My claim is a bit ridiculous? Do you mean to say that no-one caught up in terms of development? If that was true, then why did you just go on to prove what I claimed?


If Button was in Mercedes in 2011, it would still be distant fourth best and he would get 6th-7th places at best unless helped by attrition. I fail to see, how can you suggest otherwise.

I didn't suggest otherwise. I even said that after the Turkish GP Button never won a GP and that everyone else had caught up; I think that's proven by history.
Honda might have been going backwards during 2006-08 but the 2009 car had a sneaky double diffuser which in a game of 1% differences, was a 2% game changer.

As for the second claim about the drivers:


Come 2010 both Button and Barrichello had left, leaving Mercedes GP with a driver who'd not driven in F1 for three seasons and the other who had not up to then and still not has won even a single GP.

A change in driver line-up is going to be seriously disruptive. And for the record, I still think that Button-Barrichello would currently be a better driver combination than Rosberg-Schumacher currently.

Button is probably a better driver than Schumacher currently and Barrichello is probably a better driver than Rosberg currently. At the moment Barrichello has the problem of an even worse car than the Mercedes but I suspect if he was in Rosberg's seat, he'd make better use of the machinery than Rosberg is.
Rosberg leaves me uninspired.

[i_max2k2]

As for the second claim about the drivers:



A change in driver line-up is going to be seriously disruptive. And for the record, I still think that Button-Barrichello would currently be a better driver combination than Rosberg-Schumacher currently.

Button is probably a better driver than Schumacher currently and Barrichello is probably a better driver than Rosberg currently. At the moment Barrichello has the problem of an even worse car than the Mercedes but I suspect if he was in Rosberg's seat, he'd make better use of the machinery than Rosberg is.
Rosberg leaves me uninspired.


This is what he said was ridiculous, and it still is. I doubt this Mercedes or the one from 2010 would have done anything better then what Schumacher and Rosberg has done, just to judge this, lets check how many races has Barrichello won since 2009? Button has definitely become much better after his WDC, but even he wouldn't have done any better then either drivers.

[Rollo]

just to judge this, lets check how many races has Barrichello won since 2009? Button has definitely become much better after his WDC, but even he wouldn't have done any better then either drivers.

Let's use this as a judge shall we?

Lets check how many races has Barrichello won since 2009? Nil
Lets check how many races Cosworth engines have won since 2009? Nil
Lets check how many races has Rosberg won since 2009? Nil
Lets check how many races has Schumacher won since 2009? Nil

All that proves is that everything squares away. Not that Rosberg-Schumacher is better than Button-Barrichello would have been.
The Mercedes GP have been dogs, and the fact that Button is still winning Grands Prix in the McLaren merely suggests that the McLaren has improved against the Mercedes (which I think I said in the first place).

[Knock-on]

This is what he said was ridiculous, and it still is. I doubt this Mercedes or the one from 2010 would have done anything better then what Schumacher and Rosberg has done, just to judge this, lets check how many races has Barrichello won since 2009? Button has definitely become much better after his WDC, but even he wouldn't have done any better then either drivers.

So you claim Rollo's claim is ridiculous yet you doubt that anyone apart from the current two drivers would have done any better?

Isn't it rather rude and foolish to dismiss someone else's claims as ridiculous while admitting that you have doubts about your own?

:rolleyes:

[jens]

Barrichello is probably a better driver than Rosberg currently.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Barrichello has been outqualified by Maldonado on several occasions by a big margin (Pastor has been in Q3 a few times, Rubens hasn't) and also Barrichello has been outraced by Maldonado on many occasions this year. I can't see, how can currently Barrichello be any better than Rosberg. He is worse. I think Barrichello of 2011 is also worse than Schumacher of 2011, while in 2010 it was perhaps the other way around - Barrichello performing better than Schumacher. If it is claimed Schumacher is past his prime, then Barrichello is very much also. The car he has been driving, is bad, but frankly I have seen more fire in Maldo than Barri. While in 2010 I saw more fire in Barri than Hulk.

About other points - I see, where you are coming from. But the initial question raised here, which prompted the usage of phrase "ridiculous", was that whether Mercedes GP was suffering due to the driver line-up and whether Button-Barrichello would be doing significantly better, like getting podiums and fighting for Top3 in WCC. It looks like the conclusion here is "no", so the blame on drivers should be taken away.

[Malbec]

whether Button-Barrichello would be doing significantly better, like getting podiums and fighting for Top3 in WCC.

I don't think anyone seriously suggested that?

IMO continuity of any sort would have been worthwhile regardless of whether it was Rubens or Jenson staying. Certainly that is what I meant when I indicated that it would have been better if they had stayed.

FWIW I think Rubens is past it now and I don't think he's as good as Rosberg now either, but back in 2009 on form I think he was a match for Rosberg or better.