Renault and Heidfield settle out of court, Senna in for the rest of the season

[Robinho]

and Grosjean is official number 3.

good to see that Renault and Heidfield have sorted themselves out, imagine they've bought him out of his contract, but its good that its not hanging over the team any longer.

I am also genuinely interested to see how Senna fares for the rest of the year. I knw he didn't exactly cream Chandock, and we don't think he's up to much, but I'm hoping that he's got a bit more than that, I've seen glimpses in the short career in the lower formulae that he might have something a bit special, but it could just be that I want him to be good and really he isn't - at least we should see over the rest of the season

Nick Heidfeld and Renault formally part company - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94188)

Renault and Heidfeld settle out of court- James Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/renault-and-heidfeld-settle-out-of-court/)

[DexDexter]

Great news. Senna showed in quali at Spa that he is indeed a very quick driver. IMO when a driver is driving for a team like Hispania, it's really hard to make judgments about the real driving ability. I mean look at Ricciardo, he seems quite slow and that's not really the case.

[ioan]

IMO when a driver is driving for a team like Hispania, it's really hard to make judgments about the real driving ability. I mean look at Ricciardo, he seems quite slow and that's not really the case.

That's why they are compared to their team mates first of all.

[ioan]

I guess Heidfeld got his full season paid for if not more, so he gets at leat 5 millions for driving half a season, not bad at all, especially as there aren't many drivers making more than 10 millions for a full season right now in F1. Better then seeing of the season with a team boss that hates him like Alonso vs Ron in 2007.

[steveaki13]

Will we ever see Quick Nick in F1 again

[driveace]

Hope not,maybe good a few years ago,but steady comes to mind,and always drove a really wide car to pass,unless of course you were German

[DexDexter]

That's why they are compared to their team mates first of all.

If a team is in a really bad shape, it's not written in stone that they are actually able to prepare two equal cars. Luck might have a lot to with it, mechanical failures, who happens to get the better engineer etc.

[ioan]

If a team is in a really bad shape, it's not written in stone that they are actually able to prepare two equal cars. Luck might have a lot to with it, mechanical failures, who happens to get the better engineer etc.

Is this the newest excuses for underperforming F1 drivers? Does this mean that due to having different engineers there is no way to ever compare two drivers in the same team?
By your logic for all we know Yuji Ide might be the best driver ever to put foot into F1 just unlucky it was a small team he 'drove' for.

[ioan]

Hope not,maybe good a few years ago,but steady comes to mind,and always drove a really wide car to pass,unless of course you were German

Chauvinistic crap.

[DexDexter]

Is this the newest excuses for underperforming F1 drivers? Does this mean that due to having different engineers there is no way to ever compare two drivers in the same team?
By your logic for all we know Yuji Ide might be the best driver ever to put foot into F1 just unlucky it was a small team he 'drove' for.

A good example of what may go on in a team that is nearly broke is a thing that happened to my countryman JJ Lehto who drove for Onyx in the late 80's. He complained about a broken wing and in the next race he appeared to get a new one. No, it was the old one, they had just repainted it. :D :D I don't think Hispania were in that shape but still, when you don't know how badly things are in a team, it's perhaps best to give the drivers the benefit of the doubt, at least to an extent.

[Roamy]

Chauvinistic crap.

Oh then you agree Heidfield is a Pussy :)

[Malbec]

Is this the newest excuses for underperforming F1 drivers? Does this mean that due to having different engineers there is no way to ever compare two drivers in the same team?
By your logic for all we know Yuji Ide might be the best driver ever to put foot into F1 just unlucky it was a small team he 'drove' for.

It's hardly a secret that less well funded teams often can't afford to give both drivers equal equipment. That said het had no improvements at all last year so he didn't suffer in that way.

[TheFamousEccles]

In some ways its a shame that Heidfeld and Renault settled out of court, this seems to happen in many aspects of life, though.


Those with the money are able to buy a "neutral" outcome and point to it as if to say "we are not to blame", when you and I know that they could easily tie the complainant up in an endless court case and drain them of both funds and the will to carry on of the complainant.

To me it's a pity, I would like to see a contract breaker taken to task - this comes from past life experience in the workplace (used to recruit and project manage IT staff for software development projects - hearding kittens is an apt analogy), rather than let them get away with disregarding a contract. You could be assured that if Heidfeld had tried to sack Renault they would'nt settle out of court.

Anyway, whats done is done but it would have been good if a precedent was set.

Now, back to the racing!

[I am evil Homer]

If a team is in a really bad shape, it's not written in stone that they are actually able to prepare two equal cars. Luck might have a lot to with it, mechanical failures, who happens to get the better engineer etc.

True but Daniel is up against Luzzi, a man who being generous could be described as "average" for an F1 driver. Sure the car is crap but so is the team mate

[52Paddy]

Sad to see Heidfeld's career peter out in the way is has been doing for quite some time now. But I guess there have been less inspiring drivers, much worse than Nick, to grace the F1 field with their presence over the decades. I'm glad Bruno has been given a better chance than his previous attempt with Hispania. I expect it'll take him a race or two to fully accustom to F1 racing again but he should be able to prove his worth in the last few races.

[jens]

True but Daniel is up against Luzzi, a man who being generous could be described as "average" for an F1 driver. Sure the car is crap but so is the team mate

It should be reminded that Vettel was struggling to match the same 'average' Liuzzi early in his career too, managing to achieve superiority only in the late-season wet weather races. So from that point of view Ricciardo is doing absolutely fine compared to a soon-to-be-double-WDC.

[ioan]

It should be reminded that Vettel was struggling to match the same 'average' Liuzzi early in his career too, managing to achieve superiority only in the late-season wet weather races.

That's when you see who's good and who isn't.

[DexDexter]

It should be reminded that Vettel was struggling to match the same 'average' Liuzzi early in his career too, managing to achieve superiority only in the late-season wet weather races. So from that point of view Ricciardo is doing absolutely fine compared to a soon-to-be-double-WDC.

Exactly, that's why drivers starting their careers in these Eurobruns and Lifes should not be judged based on results only.

[ioan]

Or which team gambled with a wet weather set up and who didn't.

They were both in the same team!
You made my day with your pearl of infinite wisdom! :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Exactly, that's why drivers starting their careers in these Eurobruns and Lifes should not be judged based on results only.

Right, we should wait until they get a drive in the best cars even though they were crap in the lesser teams!
You've somehow managed to beat henners' pearl! :D

[52Paddy]

Right, we should wait until they get a drive in the best cars even though they were crap in the lesser teams!

You're making no sense. Gary Brabham had to deal with a team (Life) that built a car as slow as the F3000 machinery. They didn't have any spares either. How on earth was he ever going to display his real potential? Another example is Tommy Byrne with the Theodore team in 1982. He actually tested a McLaren and was faster than Senna. Eddie Jordan had a knack of spotting talented drivers in lower formulae and, even if they didn't do marvellous things with his team, a lot have went on to become F1 race winners (Irvine, Barrichello, Ralf, Fisi etc)

[SGWilko]

They were both in the same team!
You made my day with your pearl of infinite wisdom! :rotflmao:

What, teams don't run their cars with differing set-ups to mitigate risk of weather/condition changes?

[Malbec]

You're making no sense. Gary Brabham had to deal with a team (Life) that built a car as slow as the F3000 machinery. They didn't have any spares either. How on earth was he ever going to display his real potential? Another example is Tommy Byrne with the Theodore team in 1982. He actually tested a McLaren and was faster than Senna. Eddie Jordan had a knack of spotting talented drivers in lower formulae and, even if they didn't do marvellous things with his team, a lot have went on to become F1 race winners (Irvine, Barrichello, Ralf, Fisi etc)

Indeed.

Of the current top drivers Massa and Button both failed to impress relative to their teammates on paper early on. In both cases teams saw potential and hired them over their more illustrious teammates. There is far more to assessing new talent than simply looking at scoresheets.

[The Black Knight]

You're making no sense. Gary Brabham had to deal with a team (Life) that built a car as slow as the F3000 machinery. They didn't have any spares either. How on earth was he ever going to display his real potential? Another example is Tommy Byrne with the Theodore team in 1982. He actually tested a McLaren and was faster than Senna. Eddie Jordan had a knack of spotting talented drivers in lower formulae and, even if they didn't do marvellous things with his team, a lot have went on to become F1 race winners (Irvine, Barrichello, Ralf, Fisi etc)

EJ Brought Schuey into the sport too!

[ArrowsFA1]

EJ Brought Schuey into the sport too!
Probably the credit for that goes more to Peter Sauber, who was running MS in sports cars at the time with Mercedes. EJ was more than willing to accept the £150,000 (I think it was) that Mercedes paid for the Jordan seat, particularly as MS said he had been to Spa before. EJ took that to mean he had raced at Spa, which he hadn't.

Then Ross Brawn & Tom Walkinshaw, who had been running the Jaguar sports cars against Sauber/Mercedes and seen for themselves how good MS was and who then went to Benetton, were very keen to sign him up, which they did after the Belgian GP in circumstances that EJ was none too happy about.

[The Black Knight]

Probably the credit for that goes more to Peter Sauber, who was running MS in sports cars at the time with Mercedes. EJ was more than willing to accept the £150,000 (I think it was) that Mercedes paid for the Jordan seat, particularly as MS said he had been to Spa before. EJ took that to mean he had raced at Spa, which he hadn't.

Then Ross Brawn & Tom Walkinshaw, who had been running the Jaguar sports cars against Sauber/Mercedes and seen for themselves how good MS was and who then went to Benetton, were very keen to sign him up, which they did after the Belgian GP in circumstances that EJ was none too happy about.

I realise you can't give EJ full credit for MS Jordan debut. Nonetheless, it was a Jordan he drove first. It was EJ's own fault for not having a contract in place that he lost MS in the first place.

[DexDexter]

Right, we should wait until they get a drive in the best cars even though they were crap in the lesser teams!
You've somehow managed to beat henners' pearl! :D

I'm talking about teams that really shouldn't be on the grid. Hispania was in that state last year.

[Malbec]

EJ was stupid to think a gentlemans word is his bond in a deal like that and especially with a ruthless chap like Weber.

Yet EJ's entire case against Vodaphone rested entirely on him having had a verbal agreement that they would sponsor his team and not Ferrari, and that was years after MS. Clearly he didn't learn a thing!

[SGWilko]

Yet EJ's entire case against Vodaphone rested entirely on him having had a verbal agreement that they would sponsor his team and not Ferrari, and that was years after MS. Clearly he didn't learn a thing!

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, a mans word was his bond....... ;)

However, in the dog eat dog, cutthroat incestuous macro community that is F1, even a written contract isn't worth the paper it is written on......

[RS]

Renault secures four new partners - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94295)

Lotus Renault signed 4 new sponsors (where do they find the space on the car?!), at least 2 of which are Brazillian....

[52Paddy]

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, a mans word was his bond....... ;)

However, in the dog eat dog, cutthroat incestuous macro community that is F1, even a written contract isn't worth the paper it is written on......

And that's it really. Also, I can vouch for this: Irish people would be used to agreeing things on a handshake, especially up until the economy boom in the 90s which saw it advance as a country in the developed world. As a community of people, we haven't really learned the craft of the business world to the standard of super powerful and efficient countries like Germany, Sweden and Japan. Nowadays, it is a bit different as we develop further as a country (still less than 100 years old as a republic) but the naive mentality and basis of a "man of his word" certainly prevailed for a long time. EJ probably thought it would be the same everywhere. I, for one, have my eyes opened every time I meet some foreign people or travel abroad at how efficient their work ethic is. Irish people just aren't brought up the same way, generally.

I'm not making excuses for EJ. He certainly should have been more careful and clever with regard to the Schumacher situation. But I do feel bad for him losing out in the way he did - unfortunate. Anyway, I'm getting lost in my own words at this stage - just wanted to say that :p :

[DexDexter]

Renault secures four new partners - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94295)

Lotus Renault signed 4 new sponsors (where do they find the space on the car?!), at least 2 of which are Brazillian....

I don't think it is news to anyone that Senna brings backing to the team. So what? He outqualified Petrov straight away and has quite a good pedigree in the lower formula. Pretty good package for a team that needs money and new motivation. Heidfeld is a known quantity who did not bring anything extra to the team whereas Senna is bit of an unknown but may or may not have potential...The swap made perfect sense to me.

[Mia 01]

EJ was naive in the whole process from what I have read in several books on MS's life. EJ had a verbal agreement with Willi Weber that after Spa MS would sign for the rest of '91 and for 1992 off the back of his qualifying performance of that race. The men shook hands but no contract was signed and Weber had well and truly shafted EJ because they were already in talks with Benetton who were not able at that point to test MS out in one of their seats. EJ was stupid to think a gentlemans word is his bond in a deal like that and especially with a ruthless chap like Weber.

This thread was about Nick.

[Robinho]

This thread was about Nick.

Actually i started it more about Senna than Nick, Nick is gone

[Mia 01]

Actually i started it more about Senna than Nick, Nick is gone

OK, finally you cleared things up.

[ioan]

What, teams don't run their cars with differing set-ups to mitigate risk of weather/condition changes?

Teams run teh setups that drivers need to extract the best out of the car.

All this wet/dry race setup is just humbug, like in Alonso's case last year when he claimed he had the car set up for wet weather only for him to spin into the wall as soon as it started raining. :/

Then again each believes what is suited to his/her 'reality'. LOL

[ioan]

Renault secures four new partners - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94295)

Lotus Renault signed 4 new sponsors (where do they find the space on the car?!), at least 2 of which are Brazillian....

Must be due to Senna's great showing in the Belgian GP race! :laugh:

[Dave B]

Teams run teh setups that drivers need to extract the best out of the car.

All this wet/dry race setup is just humbug, like in Alonso's case last year when he claimed he had the car set up for wet weather only for him to spin into the wall as soon as it started raining. :/

Then again each believes what is suited to his/her 'reality'. LOL
A "wet" setup is no guarantee against crashing, that much should be obvious.

[steveaki13]

Well rather than pointing out that I was off topic (I wasn't the one who took it OT, btw) perhaps you'd like to give give an opinion on Heidfeld being dropped? If you can get a dig in about Lewis too, all the better.

I think Nick was unlucky to be dropped, he should be placed in a team in which the current driver is smashing the car up every race. He wouldn't be such a waste of space. ;)

Banging your head on a brick wall comes to mind. :rolleyes:

[Mia 01]

His qualifying performance helped no doubt.

Yes, your hero?

[DexDexter]

It puzzles me why Bruno is disliked by quite many people here. Lack of talent? He is no Giovanni Lavaggi based on his results in junior formulas. MOney? He brings a lot less money than Santander brings to Ferrari. :p :

[ioan]

A "wet" setup is no guarantee against crashing, that much should be obvious.

It is a guarantee for better handling in the wet than the others around have which should result in a lesser opportunity to lose the car in the wet, unless all the wet setup story was just that a story made up to hide the lack of pace in dry conditions.

Anyway each to his own reality.

[ioan]

His qualifying performance helped no doubt.

:laugh:
It's all about the name! Nothing else.
Who would sponsor a guy with no remarkable results in F1 and who runs into cars in the first turn of the race, unless his name is the same with a multiple F1 WDC?

[steveaki13]

:laugh:
It's all about the name! Nothing else.
Who would sponsor a guy with no remarkable results in F1 and who runs into cars in the first turn of the race, unless his name is the same with a multiple F1 WDC?

But drivers like Alex Yoong used to bring in money and he had no great F1 results and certainly no links to names. So company's must sponsor some drivers that are from their country or area, so maybe some sponsors are just supporting the next Brazilian driver.

Also not sure many drivers would achieve great results in the Hispania.

I know he lost out to his team mates at times, but that is not always a true indicator in a tough car. Remember Jenson Button was largely whipped by Fisichella in the shocking 2001 Benetton and history shows Button is probably now a better driver than Giancarlo was.

Just my opinion and don't get me wrong I was not impressed by Bruno's race, but his Qualifying was good and it is only one race in.

Bruno may have been helped by his name, but I think he is alot better than alot of past F1 drivers and while he won't win championships like his Uncle he could go on to perform as well as Nick Heidfeld (of whom I personally was a fan).

Lets wait and see, I enjoy watching drivers come up through the ranks and watching them develop so I am willing for him to be given some time.

[ioan]

Also not sure many drivers would achieve great results in the Hispania.

Great results? No, but they would dominate their team mates convincingly, like Klien did when brought in, and Klien is no WDC material either.

[steveaki13]

Great results? No, but they would dominate their team mates convincingly, like Klien did when brought in, and Klien is no WDC material either.

Well as I said above Jenson was outperformed nearly all season by Fisichella in a tailend Benetton in 2001 and still went on to achieve more in his career.

[ioan]

Well as I said above Jenson was outperformed nearly all season by Fisichella in a tailend Benetton in 2001 and still went on to achieve more in his career.

Consistently by more than .5 seconds per lap? Don't think so.

[steveaki13]

Consistently by more than .5 seconds per lap? Don't think so.

Can't honestly remember that much detail of 2001.

[jens]

It puzzles me why Bruno is disliked by quite many people here. Lack of talent? He is no Giovanni Lavaggi based on his results in junior formulas. MOney? He brings a lot less money than Santander brings to Ferrari. :p :

I assume the reason for dislike is that although Senna is not a terrible driver, I very much doubt he is going to be a front-running talent either. And he is a paydriver, while several junior category talents without money and in some cases despite greater achievements (like Hülkenberg) are left out in cold. Although it has to be said that Petrov is also sort of a Senna-category driver: paydriver (and apparently bringing much more money than Senna), not bad, but not stellar either. But for some reason Petrov doesn't create any dislike around him. And what I also think people don't like that even the 5th best team on the grid has fallen so low that they are hiring now 2 paydrivers. Looks like Williams is going to do the same for 2012 as well. Driver backing seems more vital these days than in the last decade to get a career started in F1.

I think all in all Senna is a good deal for Renault all things considered, but it will be interesting, what will be decided for 2012 and for me it would be disappointing if Grosjean was left without drive in F1, although he is being managed by Gravity/Bouiller...

[steveaki13]

Tought he done another solid job today into the top 10 again, lets hope the tight first chicane doesn't cause him problems come the race.

[DexDexter]

I assume the reason for dislike is that although Senna is not a terrible driver, I very much doubt he is going to be a front-running talent either. And he is a paydriver, while several junior category talents without money and in some cases despite greater achievements (like Hülkenberg) are left out in cold. Although it has to be said that Petrov is also sort of a Senna-category driver: paydriver (and apparently bringing much more money than Senna), not bad, but not stellar either. But for some reason Petrov doesn't create any dislike around him. And what I also think people don't like that even the 5th best team on the grid has fallen so low that they are hiring now 2 paydrivers. Looks like Williams is going to do the same for 2012 as well. Driver backing seems more vital these days than in the last decade to get a career started in F1.

I think all in all Senna is a good deal for Renault all things considered, but it will be interesting, what will be decided for 2012 and for me it would be disappointing if Grosjean was left without drive in F1, although he is being managed by Gravity/Bouiller...

Hülkenberg had his chance in a goodish team and he really didn't beat Barrichello and Grosjean already had one quite decent chance in a decent team and made nothing of it, so personally I don't see why those drivers should be in F1. Pay drivers have always been part of F1 but these days they are good, you don't see quys like Deletraz or Lavaggi anymore.

[jens]

Hülkenberg had his chance in a goodish team and he really didn't beat Barrichello and Grosjean already had one quite decent chance in a decent team and made nothing of it, so personally I don't see why those drivers should be in F1. Pay drivers have always been part of F1 but these days they are good, you don't see quys like Deletraz or Lavaggi anymore.

If you point out the performances of Hülkenberg and Grosjean in F1, then how do the debut seasons of Senna (2010 in HRT, matching Chandhok, getting beaten by Klien) and Petrov (getting destroyed by Kubica) warrant an F1 seat more? Sure, you see that both drivers have improved by now. But it would be the same case with Hülkenberg and Grosjean, if they were driving. The difference why two of them are driving and two are not, is exactly money and nothing else.

As for being Déletraz or Lavaggi, I might add that those guys never joined Top5 teams and were left to bring up the very rear of the grid. Thankfully indeed drivers of their caliber are not courted by competitive teams... :) so I don't see much of a comparison here. You may claim that paydrivers have always been part of F1, but usually they have been in lower midfield or backmarker teams, not so much in Top6 teams.

[steveaki13]

I wonder if say Deletraz who must be the worst driver in F1 in the last 20 years and was lapped 10 times in 60 odd laps in Oz 94, was put into that years Williams whether he would be able to finish anywhere above last. I mean was he so bad that even in a car 5 seconds + a lap faster than his Larrousse he still wouldn't have kept up with the next guy?

Just a wacky thought.

[jens]

I wonder if say Deletraz who must be the worst driver in F1 in the last 20 years and was lapped 10 times in 60 odd laps in Oz 94, was put into that years Williams whether he would be able to finish anywhere above last. I mean was he so bad that even in a car 5 seconds + a lap faster than his Larrousse he still wouldn't have kept up with the next guy?

Just a wacky thought.

Mm... We might have got an answer to that question in late 2009, when Badoer was dead last by a clear margin in a car that was capable of racing for podiums. :p :

[The Black Knight]

A very good race from Bruno. He has shown over the last two race weekends that he has what it takes to compete in F1. I think he may very well be outpacing Petrov soon.

[DexDexter]

If you point out the performances of Hülkenberg and Grosjean in F1, then how do the debut seasons of Senna (2010 in HRT, matching Chandhok, getting beaten by Klien) and Petrov (getting destroyed by Kubica) warrant an F1 seat more? Sure, you see that both drivers have improved by now. But it would be the same case with Hülkenberg and Grosjean, if they were driving. The difference why two of them are driving and two are not, is exactly money and nothing else.

As for being Déletraz or Lavaggi, I might add that those guys never joined Top5 teams and were left to bring up the very rear of the grid. Thankfully indeed drivers of their caliber are not courted by competitive teams... :) so I don't see much of a comparison here. You may claim that paydrivers have always been part of F1, but usually they have been in lower midfield or backmarker teams, not so much in Top6 teams.

Driving for HRT is bit different from driving for Renault or Williams. HRT is/was not a decent chance for a driver to show his ability, not to anybody. Hulk and Grosjean had a decent chance, this is Senna's one. If he doesn't succeed, the money will dry out quite quickly.

A good example is Ricciardo, I bet people here will later ( when he is winning races) point out that he was beaten by Liuzzi a few times in 2011 and therefore his isn't as good as people think.

[Robinho]

2 top ten qualifying results and a points finish is pretty good stuff so far and I'm glad he is close to Petrov on pace so far. He is doing pretty much what he should be doing in that seat, which is more than Nick was doing in the last few races. I'm am pleasantly surprised and I hope he can continue to improve and keeps a seat in the sport. I like him and he is pretty quick so far on a (relatively) short racing career.

[steveaki13]

Mm... We might have got an answer to that question in late 2009, when Badoer was dead last by a clear margin in a car that was capable of racing for podiums. :p :

Of course it was so bad I blocked it out. Glad someones on the ball.